Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - How Tiny Parasites & Microbes Can Affect Health & Personality | Clutterbug Podcast # 220

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

This week we are talking about something totally different, but I think it's worth the listen! I'm interviewing Kathleen McAulifee about all the amazing ways that microbes in your gut affect your life. Have you ever heard of bubble mice? Me neither, but it's fascinating! Watch her amazing Ted Talk here: https://youtu.be/UjGMiChiUFc?si=FLF6VqyP-K5gTPeX Visit Kathleen's website here: https://www.kmcauliffe.com Check out her book here: https://amzn.to/3QBL7Er It's your LAST DAY to sign up for Take Your House Back for just $94! https://www.takeyourhouseback.com/courses/take-your-house-back?ref=5bbd37       You can find more Clutterbug content here: Website: http://www.clutterbug.me YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@clutterbug TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/   #clutterbug #podcast         Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today we're talking about something totally different, something we've never talked about before. Usually my focus is on cleaning and decluttering and just getting your house under control. But today, we're talking about parasites and gut health. I know. It's strange. But listen, I think when it comes to wellness and improving our life, we have to really look at all aspects and keep an open mind and always be learning new things. so we can level up. So while you're listening to this, I promise it's interesting and it's worth to listen. Take action on something so that you're proud, whether it's putting away laundry,

doing the dishes, working out, maybe cooking dinner, whatever it is that you're doing while you're learning something new today, tomorrow is going to be easier because you take an action. I'm so excited to introduce today's guest, Kathleen McCalliffe. She is the author of the book this is your brain on parasites, how tiny creatures manipulate our behavior and shape society. And I know, sounds crazy pants. I was actually introduced to Kathleen because I came across her TED Talk on Facebook of all places. I watched it. I thought it was so cool and fascinating. I really wanted to share it with you. So I reached out to her, asked her to do an interview, and buckle up friends, because not only is she an incredible biologist, but she's,

has a wonderful way of explaining gut health, parasites, and how macrobes do more than you think. A quick disclaimer before I get into this, I accidentally had the wrong microphone selected during this interview, so my audio's kind of craptacular. Please just bear with it. I apologize, and it won't happen again. So welcome, Kathleen, and welcome everyone to the Clutterberg Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you. I'm pleased to be here. This is great. So I did let my listeners know a little bit about your book and your TED Talk,

but I would love you just give us a little intro of yourself. Just whatever you want to share with us. Okay, I guess you could call me a science junkie. I am actually a science writer, but I write for national magazines, so for very general audiences. and I'm really trying to communicate important scientific concepts in a way that hopefully your man on the street will be able to readily understand. So, as I said, I've written for many national magazines like Atlantic and Smithsonian and Discover Magazine, New York Times, on and on. I've also done two books, all related to the biological sciences.

and I teach courses at the University of Miami, one of which is about the microbiome, which is, of course, the topic of this interview. Yeah, which is not something I honestly have ever talked about before. And my channel is usually cleaning and decluttering and taking back control of your home. But the truth is, I think wellness kind of encompasses so many other things. So somebody sent me your TED Talk on Facebook. I watched it and I was like, this is crazy pants. So I'm excited to talk to you about it because I think we all need to have an open mind.

And like it hurts nothing to learn new things and try new things that could not only improve our health, but also improve our mood, improve all aspects of our life. So if you could talk a little bit about what we talked about in the TED Talk, it was like Listen, this is what it's called. Do gut microbes control your personality? And it freaked me out a little bit, Kathleen. About half of you is not you. Half of you is made up of microbial cells.

So we're talking about bacteria and protozoa and fungi and lots of other kinds of microbes. And they're most concentrated in the gut where they play really important, role in digestion, synthesizing certain vitamins that our bodies can't make, and in promoting all kinds of other health functions. Most amazing, and this, of course, is the focus of the TED Talk. Our gut bacteria can talk to our brains. They are intimate communication all the time with our brains. And they, just to give you an example, they influence, as you mentioned, there's evidence they influence our personalities, but certainly our mood, our energy level, pain sensitivity,

cognition, memory, and hunger. Like fundamental drives, of course, are, well, as you might suspect, are also influenced by gut bacteria. So they have this, you know, far-reaching effect on both our physical and mental health. Indeed, you know, I don't

think we could even survive without them. I mean, you'd actually slowly starve to death because most of the food that you ate would not even enter your system. It would just be excreted in your waste because we don't have the enzymes in our own cells to break down a lot of food.

I mean, that sounds kind of like scary. I read the book, The Host, you know, by Stephanie Meyer, where there's a parasite from alien that takes over your life. But that's certainly not what you're talking about. But I think, I think we see in our own lives how much our gut affects our head. Even when, like, we eat a big meal, we feel exhausted. We feel lethargic. I know when I eat certain foods, I really, it does affect my mood. Like, I get grumpy and I get more irritable, which is really fascinating. Like, how does this work? Why does this work? I know. don't know, but you mentioned something in your TED talk about the vagus nerve.

Am I saying this correctly? Vegas nerve. Vegas nerve. Yes. The vagus nerve connects the gut to the brain. And it is like this major nerve cable, if you like. And about 80% of the traffic on this cable is going from the gut to the brain and not the other way around as scientists had long assumed.

Not only that, we have gut bacteria that can produce every single neurotransmitter hormone and other type of psychoactive compounds that are found in the brain, the gut bacteria can also produce. And in fact, one of the reasons they seem to be able to influence so many different aspects of our behavior is because it seems like we're all speaking the same chemical language, if you will. So they can churn out chemicals that either act on the vagus nerve and influence our brain that way or go into our bloodstream and get carried to the brain that way. Also, when gut bacteria act up, when they turn aggressive or pathogens enter our system, that immediately activates the immune system.

and all these immune cells and immune compounds then can enter the bloodstream and travel to the brain and trigger inflammation. And for reasons we don't understand that well, inflammation is strongly associated with depression. So studies have shown, for example, that half of people who commit suicide have highly, highly inflamed brains. And just in general, inflammation and depression tend to grow. go together. And what they're finding is that this inflammation can start in the gut and then spread to the brain. There's so many things that we don't know and we're just learning. And it's really fascinating. I remember reading a book 20 years ago about a doctor who had a son who was autistic.

And he said there was a direct correlation between a certain bacteria or something in the gut and and its effect on the brain and development. And I thought that was, I'd never heard that. But then in your TED Talk, you mentioned that as well. There really is a lot of research going on in that field. Of course, autism is a very, very broad category. That's why it's called autism spectrum disorder. But the bottom line is they are finding that there are certain,

if you like, gut abnormalities, microbial abnormalities that seem to correlate with many cases of autism. And they're finding, for example, studies show that a lot of people with autism have very high amounts of bacterial substance in their blood that in rodents, that that substance is known to increase anxiety and agitation and also reconnecting. connect the brain, rewire the brain. And so a group of researchers have actually developed a drug that will stop this bacteria chemical from reaching and damaging the brain.

And it's actually, they're testing it now to see as a potential treatment for irritability in autistic children. and a lot of people with autism do suffer from very high levels of irritability and anxiety. There's another study that has found a bacteria that's found in some yogurt called al-voidari. At least in rodents, it was shown to improve sociability. The animals became more social when they were fed this bacteria. So now there are trials underway to give it to, or just. children to see if it will have the same effect on them. So there's just, and that's just two studies.

There's many others ongoing. It's a very hot area of research. And I think that the first trial, I told you about actually got positive results. I think they're moving ahead in their clinical trials. So that doesn't mean it will reach the market, but it could. That's amazing. I'm going to be honest. So I've been on long-term antibiotics for years years and years and years and years. And I recently just had a new family doctor who was like, hold up, that's actually really bad for you to be kind of destroying all the bacteria in your body. And obviously I've noticed other sort of issues from that. But what you're saying is there's also like a personality connection as well. There's like mood and and irritability and all of that is also

connected to your gut, which is so fascinating. And you mentioned a bubble rat. Forgive me if I'm saying this. A bubble rat. That was done. And I was like, hold up, this is crazy. Is this like the book, the host? Really fascinating. How much it can directly affect personality. If you could share that with the listeners, that blew my mind. Right. Okay. So what bubble mice? are animals that are raised from birth inside a completely sterile facility, so they have no microbes. And we know right off the bat that microbes must be having a big effect on behavior, because if you compare bubble mice to exactly the same strain of mouse but with the normal complement of microbes, they're radically different.

So, for example, a normal mouse is very curious, likes to explore, you know, arms of a maze, it's, you know, and remembers where it's been, it's skittish and dangerous situations. A bubble mouse, as I say, just couldn't be more different. It's slow to learn, quick to forget, just as likely to favor the familiar over what's new, exciting, or different, you know, just don't seem to have any natural curiosity. The other thing about them that is just so weird, and I have to say, this shocked me, is that they don't even, they're just strikingly devoid of fear. So even if they're separated from their mother early in life, they show no signs of distress,

whereas for, you know, normal mass of that strain, it would lead to, you know, lifelong skittishness. equivalent to, you know, PTSD. So they're, you know, right, that was one tip off that clearly microbes in the gut are having a big effect on many different aspects of our mood and cognition. But then what the scientists are doing now is they're transferring gut bacteria from humans with suffering from different kinds of conditions, if you will, and implanting them in, transferring to the bubble mice. and seeing, okay, you know, they now mirror the condition. And in many instances, they're finding something like that happening.

So, I have one example, if you take bacteria from an obese person and transfer it to a bubble mouse, it will fatten up, it will become obese itself. If you take gut bacteria from a thin person and transfer them to a bubble mouse, the mouse will stay thin. and they've also done similar kind of studies with depressed people. They've taken, got bacteria from depressed people, transferred them to bubble mice. And the mice show signs of depression. Like, you put them in a water tank, they give up swimming.

You know, they sort of succumb to hopelessness sooner than a same mouse that gets the bacteria from a non-depressed person. That mouse will swim longer. It's not so quick to give them to despair. So we're seeing that this is a sign that this isn't, this doesn't just relate to animals. This relates to us too, clearly. And that this isn't something that just happens during brain development. This is something that can happen after, like these mice already, you know, they're older and then you introduce new.

And it still has a change on their personality. And even their weight, that's really crazy fascinating to me. because I think that shows that this isn't like, well, it happened when I was younger, so there's nothing I can do about it, that this is like in every evolving thing that happens within our body that can change at any time. Is this what you're saying? I mean, I am no, I'm trying to hear what you're saying. Well, actually, by the time you reach adulthood, it does become much harder to change your microbiome

because if you like, all the niches in the ecosystem have been filled by your resident microbes. So, for example, if you take a probiotic, it's really hard for any of the bacteria in the probiotic to establish a foothold because they're going to have to evict the current tenant, which is not an easy thing to do. And so probiotics, for the most part, you know, typically may cause. if you're lucky, transient change and often not a very significant change. But there are a lot of other ways that, you know, especially among other things through diet, that can have a much bigger impact on your gut microbiome, beginning with not eating processed foods.

Don't say it. No, I love processed food. Okay. Tell me why. What happens is that your gut bacteria love like a very high fiber diet. And so if you're eating processed food, most of the fiber has already been stripped out of it. And so what happens is the gut bacteria start to starve. And what a lot of people don't realize is that it's not, you know, bad, you know, pathogens that then are causing damage to your gut.

it's your own gut bacteria because they're starving, start to attack the gut wall, trigger inflammation that spreads to the brain, and it's because you are starving them of their normal food. And over, you know, the 200,000 years that we've evolved, we over that vast majority of that period until just recently, we ate very, very high fiber diets. So that's why processed foods, like in a nutshell, are so bad to eat. They actually cause an inflammation of the gut, and you can get bacteria that are in the gut moving across the gut wall, entering the bloodstream, and they're traveling to places where they shouldn't be causing inflammation.

It can be anywhere in the heart of the organs, as they say, in the brain. So avoiding processed foods is number one. one of the most important things you can do. And then obviously eating lots of ruffage, but, you know, our doctors have been telling us for a long time, fruits and vegetables, especially uncooked. Because when you cook food, you're breaking down chemical bonds. Don't get me wrong.

Cook vegetables are great too. But try and get a lot of, you know, raw, you know, vegetables and fruits as part of your, you know, regular diet. And basically, and this is something I tell my students, too, If you're wondering if something's going to be good for your gut microbes, pay attention to how long it takes you to chew the food. You know, if it kind of just like turns to dust in your mouth and you swallow it and you barely have to chew, it's probably very processed. But if you bite into a carrot, like just think of how long you're munching away. And nuts, you know, you wouldn't swallow a nut hole.

You have to chew it. And all kinds of high fiber foods are, it's like exercise for your jaw, but it's. is also exercise for your gut bacteria. And they get to break down all those chemical bonds and produce all kinds of chemicals like puterate and other amino acids that are very important for our health. Other foods that we know are very good for gut bacteria include chickery root, which is something people don't know a lot about.

I didn't, to be honest. I was confused because I grew up in Ireland. And in Ireland, chickery is a... what people call Andeve in this country, or endive, people pronounce it all different ways. So I thought it was related to Andeve, but it's not. Chikri comes from a wildflower, really a weed, that grows all over the southeastern part of the United States,

probably other parts as well, in many other parts of the world. and it has a tuberous root, which can be ground up into granules that look an awful lot, both in color and texture like coffee. And in Morocco and southern France, they've long been drinking coffee with chicory mixed in. So they usually do it like, you know, three scoops of coffee to coffee granules to one scoop of, of chikri, and that's how they make their coffee. And as a result of New Orleans being founded by French people, that's why they like their coffee with chikri in it. And chikri is, it's pure inulin, and that's really great for your gut bacteria. So that's, if you like coffee.

I'm going to look into this. Where would I, where would I buy this? I don't. I've never on Amazon, there are tons and tons of vendors. What is interesting, though, is I don't think the word has really gotten out to the general public, which surprises me because these things, you know, this kind of information travels fast. But if I went to Whole Foods a few months ago, I looked for Chick-Reary, and I couldn't find it except in some kind of New Orleans coffee mix, you know, a can of that. I found just this one manufacturer. But what I do is I buy it just online.

You go on Amazon, look at it. There's like at least 12 or so different vendors, and they'll sell you a bag of chickery. As I say, it looks like a bag of coffee. And then you can just make it yourself, just the way you would normally make coffee, but change the ratio. I do 50-50 myself because I love the taste of chickery,

and a lot of people do. Not everyone. Sadly, my husband does not, but I've been tricking him and he's been drinking more and more because I'm putting a teeny bit more into the coffee each morning than he realizes. I love that. I'm going to do it for my husband. This is so good. Do you know what? My husband has like recently, maybe the last two years, developed like irritable bowel syndrome.

And so it's painful and he's like it's definitely effective. He's way more lethargic, especially right after he eats. He has to have a nap after. And to hear you say that the gut, the bacteria is starving. And so it's like eating itself, which is causing inflammation. That was such a light bulb for me because I'm like, wow, he doesn't eat enough fiber. What is what's really happening here? It's all the processed foods.

It's all the things that he's now eating. And instead of taking medication, right, which the doctors are now suggesting. what if we just looked at actually feeding the bacteria? That's a really like beautiful way to say it, right? You're just like making it. It's like it's starving. You have to feed it like a garden. I mean, it certainly could be a contributing factor, especially if he's eating a highly processed diet. But, you know, it may not be that simple. You know, often it isn't because I know people have had the condition for many years and they've tried. everything under the sun. One thing I would say, I do suspect that in many cases the microbiome is playing a role, perhaps a very big role. And one of the things we know is that the microbiome is

as unique as a fingerprint. So no two people have, you know, the same microbes in the same proportions and so forth. There's tremendous difference between us. And as a result, of that, how we process exactly the same food can be very different. So what I told you earlier about what's a healthy diet is generally true, but there are always outliers. And I'll just give you one example. There was this Israeli study, Dieter study that I thought was kind of mind-blowing. What they did is they brought a whole bunch of people, I mean, I think over a thousand, into the lab, and they hooked them up to portable glucose monitors and fed them, you know, individual foods, you know, one at a time, and look to see how their body responded to these foods.

And normally, if a food is healthy for you, and this tends to be true of, like, highly fibrous foods, you'll see a very low, gradual glucose rise. With processed foods, you tend to see this big glucose spike, because your bacteria don't have do any work to break it down so that just all that energy just, that glucose just floods your bloodstream, okay? So you want to avoid glucose spikes. Well, what they found as a result of doing this study is that, you know, like a bowl of white rice might be very good for you, but not for me. Or, you know, if you're really, you might be somebody for whom a bowl of ice cream is great, but for me, it's terrible. I should avoid it. And one, um, one, um,

finding that really jumped out at me was there was a man in the study who was pre-diabetic, taking meds to try and control his blood sugar levels. And they discovered that unlike most people who, you know, whose blood glucose rose very slowly in response to eating tomatoes, his like just shot right up. And so they said, whoa, you know, you probably shouldn't be eating. tomatoes. And you know, tomatoes are in everything. They're in marinero sauce. You know, you put it on your pasta. They're on your pizza. I can't imagine. Pries are like ketchup. But we shouldn't be eating french fries, Kathleen. We should not be eating french fries. No, no French fries.

You know, and you slice it up, you put it on a sandwich. Anyway, so they had him remove tomatoes from his diet and he no longer needed to take medicine to control his sugar levels. So he was an outlier. As I said, the vast majority for the vast majority of people in that study, tomatoes are healthful, but for him they were not. And so, you actually can now, the company, the people that did this study are now actually marketing glucose monitors. I don't recommend them unless maybe you're pre-diabetic or something. But the bottom line is, as a result of that study, I do tell people, especially people like

your husband who are having a problem, you know, when they're having irritable bowel issues, is pay very close attention to what's setting them off because it could even be something surprising that you wouldn't expect. And I can really keep a detailed food diary. Or there's another approach called FOD map, F-O-D-Map, where you, it's a sort of a technique for introducing, you know, you start out eating very few foods and then you gradually introduce more and see how you respond. And that's another way to kind of pinpoint which foods are or irritants that you need to avoid. I have to take a second to think today's podcast sponsor, Factor.

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off your first box plus 20% off your next box while your subscription is active. What do you feel about probiotics? Because we hear a lot of people are like, oh, take probiotics. Like this is going to somehow. magically solve everything. And I would love your input on probiotics. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of probiotics. First of up, they're supplements. So they're not regulated. And in fact, you know, often, you know, there's no guarantee that what you see on the label is actually going to be, you know, in the product or in the amount stated or anything like that. And as I earlier mentioned, it's very hard to, you know, to swallow organisms and get them to actually establish themselves in your gut,

much easier to change your gut microbes by what you feed them, i.e. the food that you yourself consume. And then finally, the findings from the literature are all over the board. And, you know, I'll see a study that, oh, probiotics, a medical study that they reduced the number of days of diarrhea following use of antibiotics or whatever. But I'll see just as many studies, perhaps even more, that show that they didn't work. And also, each study is using different formulation, sometimes different bacteria. so it's like comparing apples and oranges. And the bottom line is I'm really not convinced by any of the studies. Plus, when people go into the supermarket, look into the supplement section,

they're kind of just choosing probiotics at random. And who's to say that whatever it is in that pill is going to be helpful for your particular condition? It might even be harmful. So I just don't think it makes any sense. It's like going into a pharmacy and randomly picking, you know, pills off the shelf and hoping it might help your allergies or your diabetes or your depression. I mean, you have about that much luck. I mean, I don't think they're likely to hurt you, but they could hurt your wallet. I mean, they're not, you're more likely to be throwing your money away.

So it's just like be mindful of what you're feeding your body and be mindful of that. And it kind of like a garden. I like that analogy. It kind of grows the way it's supposed to. I would love your opinion on something that I noticed. When I first became a mom, I had that first time mom panic, and I overcleaned everything. Everything was bacterial wipes and I was bleaching everything

and I didn't want my daughter to have, she didn't go to daycare, she was at home with me. And I noticed when she did, when she became like, 16 months, we were like introducing her to daycare. She was violently ill. It's like germ wash her. Yeah, had a terrible immune system that really carried with her for years and years, whereas my second daughter and my son, I was just like, like, lick the dirt, you know, it was very much. And they didn't get as sick at all. And still like years later, my oldest Izzy is definitely more prone to infection. She still just has what seems like from the

outside a weaker immune system, even though that was just a very short time in her life where I over cleaned and disinfected everything. But do you think that level of disinfecting could actually be bad for us? A lot of scientists do. There's a popular theory called the hygiene theory. And basically what that theory is is it's really good to expose people early in life, children early in life, to a diverse range of bacteria. And bear in mind, the vast, vast majority of bacteria are healthful. And because it helps train the immune system. So the more experience your and the earlier you're, and the earlier you're, encounter all these different types of microbes, the better you train your immune system to tell

friend from foe. That's a theory. And there actually is quite a bit of research to support it. I mean, I know many people who take it as a given. They no longer see it as a theory. There is some controversy about it. But there's certainly plenty of evidence to suggest, for example, that people that live in, you know, super clean. environments, like in the Western industrialized nations, tend to have much higher rates of

allergies and also to foods, food allergies, and all kinds of autoimmune conditions, which is where the body mistakenly attacks, mistakes your own tissues for, you know, a foreign body and attacks them. And those, you know, almost all autoimmune conditions have been dramatically increased, well, not dramatically, it depends on the condition, but have been increasing in prevalence in the last few decades. So we're talking about asthma. It's much more common today than when I was a kid. MS. Multiple sclerosis. Certainly, you talked about irritable bowel, your inflammatory bowel disease, like Crohn's disease, much more common today than in the past.

Lupus, type 1 diabetes, it goes on and on. Did I mention Crohn's? I think I did, yeah, irritable bowel, inflammatory bowel. So all these conditions are more common, and yet if you look, for example, in Finland, You know, you have a comment on all these conditions are more common. But you look just across the border in a part of Russia that's much more rural and underdeveloped, much lower incidence of all these conditions. So we think there might be something to that.

And as somebody who's always like, here, let's clean our house. I have put down, like I don't use disinfectants anymore because of just seeing in my own life. And then I was like doing a little bit of research. And I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I think we can clean without killing all. I don't think the bacteria and the germs are the bad guys. But I think we've been kind of conditioned to believe that they are. And living in a germ-free, bacteria-free, micro-whatever-you-called-free environment,

it may not be healthy, like we think. No. Only about 100 types of bacteria are actually virulent. the vast, the overwhelming majority are benign or actually healthful, like a lot of soil bacteria are very healthful. And, you know, people who are farmers tend to have a much more diverse gut microbiota than, you know, just your average person who's probably working an office job or what have you. And certainly modern living itself.

being locked away high up in a skyscraper, locked off. You know, sometimes windows don't even open up. So you're locked, you don't even get, you know, wind. Wind carries lots of soil. And you think it would be bad, but it's actually, we're finding it's good to open your windows. It's good to be exposed to soil. And like hunter-gatherers,

I actually wrote this down because I thought this was very interesting. So the average hunter-gatherer, like this is the Ha-Hazda in Africa. So they have 730 gut species. A California farmer has 436, and the average Californian has 277. So you can see what a big impact living close to nature, close to the land, has on your gut microbiota. I think being outdoors a lot, gardening, getting your hands dirty, is another part. probably very important way to enhance your microbiome. I love this.

This is exactly what, hearing you talk, this is what I'm thinking. I'm like, I'm going to plant vegetables and then I'm going to eat them raw. Mix them little pies. I feel good. Actually, like I think innately when you say this and you think about planting a garden

and eating things that you've grown and even shopping, local farmer markets. We all are really drawn to that. It's the whole, oh, well, there's so much convenience over here, but something in us is really drawn to that type of lifestyle. And I think it's because innately we know that that's healthier. It's going to make us not only healthier, but happier too, because it does affect our mood. It affects more than just our duct, obviously. It's affecting our brain as well. So, so fascinating. I'm definitely going to link in the show notes, your incredible TED Talk, and your book. Could you let my listeners know other ways that they can find you and follow you and learn more about all the things that you have to teach us?

Well, I think my website is probably the best way. So I would, and it's www.k.k.m.colif. Yeah, and when I write new articles, they'll automatically be posted there, the links to them. So, yeah. Awesome. Thank you. I'm feeling, I'm inspired. I'm going to go order a rhubarb bush.

I've been wanting to plant that and get some raised beds and just dig my hands in the dirt and get dirty. And, yeah, I'm just looking at all of this differently. So thank you. We don't usually talk about anything close like this on the clutterbug podcast, but I think when it comes to wellness, it's a, it's a, it's a. a lot of things we all need to look at, not just the traditional things we think of. So thank you very much. You're absolutely fascinating. I enjoyed talking with you. I'm going to go up and eat an apple, like immediately.

And I'm going to go listen to some more of your podcast because I've listened to a few before the show and I got very inspired. I'm going to eat healthier. You're going to organize and declutter. This is amazing. Thank you. so very much for being here. And thank you everyone who's listening at home and we'll see you guys next time.