Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - Keep Your Home Clean & Tidy 24/7 with this ONE SECRET! | Clutterbug Podcast #320

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Decluttering, organizing, and building habits that stick — today I’m talking with Gretchen Rubin (author of The Happiness Project and The Four Tendencies) about why clutter keeps coming back, how to finally follow through, and how to get your home under control for good. If you struggle to start, procrastinate, or can’t maintain a tidy house, this episode will change how you see your expectations, yourself, and the systems you use. Gretchen Rubin is one of my biggest heroes. Her work changed my life when I was drowning, and in this conversation we go deep on the ideas that help you actually do the thing. Maintenance sometimes feels like the hardest part of home management, and that’s what we tackle in this episode. Gretchen breaks down The Four Tendencies (Upholder, Questioner, Obliger, Rebel) and explains how she discovered this framework by noticing a simple pattern: the same person can do something effortlessly in one context and feel totally stuck in another. We talk about what it means to meet or resist outer expectations (deadlines, other people) vs inner expectations (the promises you make to yourself)—and why that difference matters so much when you’re trying to declutter or keep up with everyday housework. You’ll hear why I’m an Obliger (and how outer accountability helped me grow my business), how to “speak someone’s language” instead of trying to force your system onto them, and why Rebels often feel trapped by routines—even the ones they choose. We also dig into something I’m obsessed with right now: the perfectionism/procrastination loop that keeps people stuck, and my approach to breaking through the roadblock so you can finally get momentum. We cover Obliger Rebellion—that moment when you’ve been giving and giving… and suddenly you go nuclear. If you’ve ever snapped, quit, cut someone off, or hit a breaking point that felt like it came out of nowhere, Gretchen’s explanation will make you feel seen (and give you a better way forward). If you’ve ever thought, “I know what to do . . . I just can’t make myself do it,” this is the episode you’ve been waiting for. Want to get organized? Learn 6-Step The Clutterbug Method: https://clutterbug.thinkific.com/courses/Clutterbug-Method You can find more Clutterbug content here: Main YouTube Channel: @Clutterbug Website: http://www.clutterbug.me TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/ For more with Gretchen Rubin, please visit https://gretchenrubin.com/ And here is the direct link for Clutterbug's collaboration with Gretchen: https://gretchenrubin.com/move-26-in-26-with-clutterbug/ Gretchen's photo by Allie Coyle #clutterbug #podcast #ClutterbugPodcast #CasAarssen #GretchenRubin #TheFourTendencies #FourTendencies #HappinessProject #Decluttering #DeclutterYourHome #HomeOrganization #OrganizingTips #GetOrganized #OrganizedHome #Clutter #ClutterFree #HouseholdManagement #HomeManagement #CleaningMotivation #Habits #HabitBuilding #FollowThrough #Procrastination #Perfectionism #ProgressNotPerfection #Accountability #OuterAccountability #Obliger #RebelTendency #Questioner #Upholder #ExecutiveFunction #Productivity #Motivation #Expectations Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I quadrupled my income in six months by doing one thing. And that's listening to my next guest. Today is probably the coolest day ever because we are talking to one of my heroes, Gretchen Rubin. Gretchen Rubin has changed my life multiple times, starting with the third self-help book I ever read, which is the Happiness Project. And then the four tendencies is probably the reason I have a successful business today. honestly, and something that I use every single day in my business to help you get motivated and

meet expectations. And it all came from Gretchen Rubin's brain. Not only are we going to talk to her about the four tendencies, but today she's also going to change my life in other ways yet again. So buckle up. Today you're going to learn about the quiz for the four tendencies. If you already know your style, awesome. If you don't, I want you to take the quiz at the end of this podcast. And let me know in the comments below what you are. But just listening, I want to know if any of these four tendencies that we're going to talk about speaks to you. So while you're listening to Gretchen Rubin, explain her four tendencies and talk about all the little nuances, see if one just feels like, yeah, that's me. And just like always, you are not allowed to just passively watch or listen.

Do something right now to make yourself proud. Let's spend time together and push the needle forward. Maybe you want to grab a trash bag and find 26 things to go. Maybe you finally want to deal with the pile on the counter or get the dishes done or make your bed. Every small thing that you complete today puts you closer to the home that you deserve. And here's my promise to you right now. Listening to this podcast, understanding your tendency will change your home, but it will also change your life. It may save your marriage and other relationships too. And I'm not. not saying that lightly. Honestly, this is the most transformational thing aside from your clutterbug style that you can learn about yourself. Hello, Gretchen, welcome to the Clutterbug podcast. Hello, I'm so happy to be talking to you. You, I mean, I don't want a fan girl on you. We have spoken before, but you are definitely a hero of mine. It's true. When I first started my journey, I had never read a self-help book before.

I was drowning in clutter. I sucked at all things, Gretchen, okay? I was like a disaster in all areas. And I read The Happiness Project. And this was the third self-help book I had ever read. And it changed my life because I was just starting my journey and you talked a lot about the home in getting this under control. And it inspired me because you also changed the language around clutter.

I highlighted it here. I've been talking about it for so much. many years, but you talked about, like, nostalgic clutter and freebie clutter. You gave different names to something that otherwise was just mess. Mm-hmm. Yeah, freebie clutter. That's, I can't resist freebie clutter. Ask me how many tote bags I have. I can't resist the clutter. I call it fantasy clutter. You call it aspirational clutter. So, you know, this cream's going to fix my face, I always think this is going to be the one. But what I love about this is that I needed to have the different language. I needed to have sort of the patterns shown to me to think about

the solution differently. And you did the same thing with the four tendencies. So for my listeners who have never heard of the four tendencies, which will change their lives, you kind of break it down. And how did you even come up with this? I am kind of a happiness bully. That's what my sister calls me. And so I was quizzing a friend of mine about her habits and her happiness. And she said, the weird thing about me is I know I'm happier when I exercise. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? And I thought, well, why? I mean, it's the same person. It's the same behavior. At one time, it was effortless now she can't do it. And I could think of many possible reasons.

but I'm like, what's going on? And I thought of other patterns that I had observed in people, like people who would say something like, I don't believe in New Year's resolutions. I'll do something when it makes sense for me. But I won't wait for January 1st. January 1st is an arbitrary date, right? And so it's like, that's interesting that that never really bothered me.

But like there's this group of people who say almost exactly the same thing. So what is going on? I thought about this for so long. And then finally, it was sitting right here. And all of a sudden the word expectation kind of jump. jumped out. It was like a jumped out of the screen to me. And I realized this is the core. It's how we respond to expectations. Okay. So now I'm going to explain the four tendencies. There are polders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. And it has to do with how you respond to expectations.

And we all, and this sounds so boring. I know it sounds so dry. But it gets juicy. Yet Cass, you know, it gets juicy. So stay with us. We all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations like a work deadline and inner expectations like I want to get my clutter under control. And so depending on whether we meet or resist outer and inner expectations, that's what makes us an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel. So upholders are people who readily meet outer and inner expectations. So they meet the work deadline. They keep a New Year's resolution without much of us. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. These are people who think discipline is my freedom. Then there are

questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do it if they think it makes sense. They need reasons, justification, rationale. They love efficiency. They love to customize. They want the best system. So they're making everything an inner expectation. If it makes sense to them, they'll do it no problem. If it doesn't make sense to them, they'll push back. So their motto, is I'll comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest category for both men and women. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are the people that say, why is it that I keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself. The key thing there is to realize that for an obliger to meet even an

inner expectation, they must have a form of outer accountability. If you want to read more, join a book group. If you want to exercise more, work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up. There's a million ways to create out of accountability. And if you are an obligeer, that is what you need. Obligers are great. Leaders, team members, family, friend, they go the extra mile, but they need that outer accountability. So their motto is, you can count on me. And I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. And this is the smallest group. Rubbles resist all expectations outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do,

but if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically, they don't tell themselves what to do. Like, they don't say, I'm going to sign up for a 10 a.m. Spin class on Saturday because they think, I don't know what I want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that you're expecting me to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me. And neither can I. So these are the four. I love it so much. This change. This change. my life because finding out I was an obliger. I worked from home. I was trying to run my own business. And I was like, I need accountability. I hired someone to come to my home every day. And I quadrupled my business size within a few months. See, that is so fascinating. Because

you might say to yourself, oh, what does a little bit of self-insight do? Like, that's not going to make any real difference. And then here it is, it's like so concrete for you. it is and I use it like if I want to work out I know I have to schedule either a personal trainer I'll be so mad if I like I can't cancel on them or have a friend I tie everything even something really silly like I want to I don't know clean the house today I will say to my son if I get the house done by six we can go and like get ice cream after at dairy queen and so my success is tied at all times Gretchen I use this this is my secret and I use this every day.

So I'm so passionate about it because also in Clutterbug, helping other people try to get a handle in their home, I see why they also need to know their tendency. Not only is it important to understand their brain when it comes to their natural organizing style, but if you can't make yourself do it in the first place and then you can't stick with maintaining it, it's all for nothing. Right. Well, and then Cass, like our systems remind me of each other because, it's like I think a lot of times people think, well, what works for you should work for me? And if it doesn't work for me, there's something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? Why can't I do what other people can do so easily? Or it makes us judgmental. And we're like, well, if I can do it, why can't you do it? Like, what's your problem? Like, I don't understand what the issue is. Instead of just saying like, you know, some things work for some people, some work for other people. If this approach doesn't work for me, let me learn from that and try something different. I feel like so often, people get consumed with self-blame or blaming others, when in fact, it's just like, there's no right way, there's no wrong way. It's only the fit. And the key thing is, what is the fit, which is what I love about Clutterbug, too, because it's like, once you see your category, you're like, oh, okay,

now everything makes sense to me in like a new fresh way. I just see, it just illuminates myself. I feel like it answers some of the same questions because I get questions a lot from people who say, Okay, that's great. I know my style, but I'm not sure my family member's style and how do I get them to do it like me? And so with the four tendencies, I now, listen, I know you don't like it when I call it manipulation, but I use it to manipulate, entice people to meet expectations. What's the right word? But I know. Communicate effectively. Communicate effectively.

Speak their language. How can I speak your language so that you and I reach an aim. together. That sounds way better than manipulative. Yeah. Okay. Like my daughter, my daughter's 19, she is a questioner. So I can't say, clean your room. But if I say, if you clean your room, you're going to feel a lot better, you're going to sleep better, you're going to feel more focused, and like give her actual data to support. Yeah. The reasoning behind it, she will do it. My husband is a rebel. I cannot say, hey, could you wash the dishes for me? It's not that he's like a horrible person, But something about that makes him like, ain't no way I'm doing the dishes now.

But if I present it like a problem, as you know, if I say, I'm feeling really stressed and I have so many things to do, I have to do the dishes and the laundry and I have to work later, can you help me solve a solution? He will readily say, oh, I'll take care of this or that because it's his solving. What's happening here, Gretchen? There's so many things wrapped up in that example. Okay, first of all, you're an oblige. and your husband is a rebel.

That is a very typical pattern. As I said, obliger is the biggest tendency. Rebel is the smallest tendency. Obligers are like the typo, fittingly. They match up the most easily with the other three tendencies. But when you see a rebel paired up, either in romance like with you or it work, like in a founding pair, if one person is a rebel, almost always the other person is an obliger.

So you guys are like a classic pairing. And here's the thing. Sometimes people think that rebels are inconsiderate or selfish or, But they can be enormously considerate, civic-minded, selfless, but they're doing it because that's the kind of person they are. That is what they choose to do. And so what you're saying to your husband is, are you the kind of thoughtful partner who wants to lighten my load?

Would you choose to do something out of love for me? Now, I'm an upholder. I'm the kind that readily meets outer and inner expectations. And I have to say this sort of baffles me. I'm kind of like, look, we're married, we got to get this done, I'm doing this, you do that, like, what, like, I don't choose, just do it, you know? And like, but a rebel, they want that choice. They want that freedom.

They want that self-expression. And the thing about a rebel is the more you ask or tell them to do something, you do ignite the spirit of resistance. And rebels will say to me, like, I might be, I might be walking towards the dishwasher, getting ready to just without a word, unload the dishwasher. But if you say to me, hey, will you, unload the dishwasher, I immediately want to be like, no, I don't want to do that. It's just this spirit of resistance that can get just activated in them. So if you, it's really helpful to know that whether

you're a rebel or someone else around you as a rebel, because you can kind of inadvertently just like get in their way and get in your own way by just sort of casually saying these things that really do not land well with them. It's true. I don't want to say you save my marriage, but I'll take it. Honestly, you may have because there was, I felt, I felt resentful. And I feel like he almost felt like I was nagging. And it was this very strange dynamic. But when I step back and just realize his brain works differently and changed the way I communicate, everything changed. And so I say manipulation. That's not nice. But it's helpful. It matters. That's why I'm just, I'm so passionate about the four tendencies because I literally use this every day. But I also

use it when working with clients. It's one of the first things I think about. I diagnose their organizing style. I try to diagnose all their family members organizing style. And then I think, okay, great, how can I get them to actually let go? How can I get them to declutter? How can I get them to be excited about this? And how can I get them to follow through? But I don't always talk about this hardly ever, actually, on my videos. And I know that it's the follow through. It's the meeting the expectation. It's not only setting up an organizing system or decluttering, but keeping up on housework every day where I've been failing people. And why I'm excited to have you, because that's the part that we need you for. We all need you. You got to hold up this mirror to people so they can

understand themselves and not trick themselves, but like I hired someone to come to my house to help me because I understand how my brain works. Everyone needs that kind of understanding and self-awareness. So let's reframe the four tendencies for a second when it comes to housework. If you are a rebel, which surprisingly Gretchen, a lot of people when I put in the comments, they will say that they're a rebel. And you said it's like 10% or something. But I see in my community, people who really struggle with clutter, a high portion of them are actually rebels. Why do you think that is? Well, see, this is so fascinating, right?

Because probably what it is is that rebels are like, they don't want to live in a cluttered environment, right? But then they try to stick to these systems and they rebel against them. And so then they fail. So they're coming to you because they're like, okay, well, maybe the clutter book system is the one that's going to work for me. But then they're like, but then I can't maintain it. Like, I do it and then I don't want to do it. What's interesting, and maybe you've seen this in what you do, is I find that a lot of times people have the energy for like the big like the big effort like you know you can sort of there's like a

special energy and optimism and the kind of excitement and novelty about like doing something but then keeping it going doing that maintenance requires a different muscle and so a lot of times people don't realize that they think oh the hard part the only part I need to think about is like this first burst and they don't understand like no this is that is just one milestone in a lifetime of milestones if you want to keep your house orderly or you want to exercise consistently or whatever it is. And so I bet there are a lot of rebels who are like, okay, I'm all in. I'm going to do this. And then, okay, but it's not, it's not sticking. It's not working. Or maybe they read about it and they're like, yeah, I don't know. That doesn't sound like it would work for me. I want to do it my own way. And then they're like,

okay, so what do I do if I don't want to do it your way? And you're like, okay, well, this is, this is the way that we're talking about, you know. So rebels, because rebels can often frustrate other people because they resist outer and inner expectations. But they, they frustrate themselves too. And many rebels say to me, when I'm trying to get myself to do something, I resist. So how do, what do I do? Because they're frustrated. So for my listeners who are listening right now, Gretchen is going to solve all of our problems with her words of wisdom. But let's talk about, there's a lot of expectations that are tied to home management. There's expectations when you were looking at a cluttered space, like, I've got to decluttered.

and I got to, where does this all go? And I have to keep things, but what should I keep? And it's so much pressure and responsibility and expectations. So not only do we need to know how we manage things, your clutterbug style, how we naturally put things away and how we naturally manage our belongings, but we need to understand how we naturally manage our expectations too. So an upholder, that's pretty easy to maintain the expectations of decluttering and organizing, they basically just need a list, right, Gretchen? Like if I just gave you a checklist, you as an upholder would follow it, correct? But I think that, I mean, even to step back, I think the people that, I think one of the reasons people are feeling a weight of expectations is they're not living up to whatever it is that they're trying to achieve. Like, that's why it feels like a weight because it's like, well, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

Do you think? Yeah. I also think people's expectations maybe are a little bit too high, but that's a whole other conversation that we can talk about later. Well, and one thing also, because you're an obligor, tell me a few experiences, is I think sometimes obligers in particular lock into this is what they expect. This is what they want. This is what I have to do where no one says you have to.

No one is expecting it. Actually, no one who is coming through your front door is thinking that. or expecting that, but somehow in your mind and expectation has locked in. And so I think sometimes the thing to do is to just sort of step, is just to literally say, what am I expecting? Because sometimes people have the vague idea of like, I just want to have like a well-ordered home. And it's like, okay, but that's like an infinite. Like you can take that so, so far. So what would that look like? And I think this is where Clutterbug gets into sort of like detailed categories and broad categories because people have like sort of different levels of how much that how much like comfort they feel in that. But I think a lot of times the weight of expectations is really because, well, I just, I'm not, I'm letting myself down and I'm letting kind of imaginary others down.

And to like to really focus in on okay, like, well, what exactly is that? Yeah. I know for myself, I put big expectations. because I grew up in a home where my mom was such a clean freak and everything it was like, and I internalized those expectations. Like it had to be done that way for me too. And I really beat myself up that I couldn't do. It was this, it wasn't healthy.

So even as an obliger, I had to step back and say like, what's really my definition of what done looks like? And that's when I realized my mom's super detailed. I am not. And why was I trying to put my papers in alphabetical order? Why was I putting my spices? Why was I color coordinating everything? Like that didn't work for me. And so when I shifted that and relaxed that and took this macro approach, yeah, I was like, oh, so much weight was lifted off my shoulders. But it was still really hard to get started. It really was. And I did have to tie it to other people. And I did that through a YouTube channel, actually. Looking back, you know, I was showing up for my community. And, making a video and growing a business. So I tied it to something external for myself, which is how I found the motivation. But I know a lot of people who are listening right now are like, I know what I'm supposed to do. I just can't make myself do it. Yes. Right. And so do you have a tendencies can plug in. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. So if you are an upholder, I feel like that one, you probably aren't

listening to the Clutterbug podcast because you probably have your crap to get. there. But maybe I'm wrong. Even if holders get cluttered, but probably like once they have a system, they will be pretty good at keeping the system. Or it's like if you say, I'm going to put this on the calendar at this day or every Sunday night, I'm going to take an hour to do XYZ. That's the kind of thing that comes naturally to them. Scheduling, monitoring, checklists, that those kinds of things work very well for upholders. And they find them satisfying. That's the thing as other people are like, oh, you're constrained, you're, you're changed, you're limited. But for an upholder, that really feels freeing because it's like, okay, this discipline

allows me to give me what I want. So a lot of times I think probably an upholder, even like a very cluttered upholder, if they use your system and then they kind of put it on the calendar, then they could maintain it pretty easily compared to the other tendencies. Okay. So let's talk about a questioner. A questioner is the second largest group. So if you're looking at a community or people taking a course or you're trying to think about how to communicate with a lot of people at one time, you can think like probably most of these people are going to be obligers and questioners.

Like rebels and upholders are like the kind of fringe personalities. I remember when I came up with this framework, I went to my husband. I was like, you know what? I part of this like extreme personality type. And he was like, you think? Because he was not surprised. But so, questioner, you mentioned your questioner daughter, and you did exactly what is the thing for questioners. Why am I asking you to do this?

Why am I suggesting this system? What is my reason? Why does this make sense? And even the customization, like questioners tend to love to customize. It's like, hey, you know, research really shows that if you're in an orderly environment, probably you're going to find it easier to rest. And you're going to spend less time looking for things. And people spend a bonkers amount of times just looking for it. place objects. And you know, you're going to feel more creative and you're going to, you know,

blah, blah, blah. Here's the research to show it. But let's talk about what works for you. Morning or night, weekends, weeknight. Do you want to sit at a desk or do you like to sit on your bed? If you like to sit on your bed, do you want to do something different with your desk so that you have more storage space. Like, let's really get into the reasons and the customization so that it works for you. Because the more that some, a questioner feels like this is the most efficient and most justified system for me, it makes the most sense, then they get on board. They have to have that confidence. Yeah, I love this. And I can recognize the questioners in my comments all the time in my community. How? Okay, what do they say? So a questioner generally locks on to the

four styles more than anybody else, first of all, because I feel like they're looking to make sense of the mess. They're looking for like, okay, well, why doesn't this work for me? And I'm like, well, your brain is more detailed or you're more visual. Then instantly like, they're like, oh, that makes so much sense. So they're like, yes. And then they'll say, can I be more than one style? Yeah. Can I be a style here at work and different at home? And then I'm like, you're a questioner. And I know, yeah, are you seeing the same thing? There's always a follow-up question. Okay, because first of all, questioners are always like, but there's such a wide variety of mankind. How could you possibly limit it to four types? And you're like, okay, just look around.

There's four types. I mean, and then they do want to say they're multiple. And then in the context of the four tendencies, the reason why they say they're more than one is they'll say something to me like, well, look, if somebody asked me to do something and it doesn't make any sense, well, then I'm a rebel. I refuse to do it. If something makes sense to me, I'll do it easily, like in a pollter. And I'm like, right, because you're saying, why? should I listen to you? And that is questioner. Thinking that you're more than one is a tell because they're like, well, at work, it makes sense, but at home, it doesn't make sense. Or the opposite. However, however, they're thinking about it. Yeah, that is a big, it's funny that you see that

too. Yeah. I do. I can pick it out in the comments. And I can also pick out a clutterbug style quite often in the comments, where at least the detailed and the non-detailed, because the detailed brain, the analytical, very logical brain will ask those questions like, well, I like to sort these things in so many categories, but I'm not saying it's over 10. Is it detailed over 10 or is it less than, is it less than, and I'm like, well, you're detailed. The fact that you're analyzing and trying to. But what people don't understand too, though, is sometimes like it works both ways. Like people might say like, well, all questioners are detailed. Well, no, because a questioner might be broad because they might say like, well, it's not efficient.

for me to spend all my time, like alphabetizing my spices. So I'm going to have broad categories. That's more efficient. Whereas the detailed person is like, the most efficient way is to have it very detailed. Nobody's right or wrong. It's just a different way of thinking about it. But you have to like think about it in that questioner way in order for it to make sense to them. Also, just for the questioners who are here, if you are a questioner, it doesn't mean you're also a B or a cricket, or it doesn't mean you're also. There's so many different, like, personality types and ways to really have that self-awareness, but they stack. They don't, they don't blend. So we'll just, we're just putting that out there for you questioners who are questioning.

Right. Or to put it another way, you could be a questioner cricket. You could be a questioner B. You could be a questioner Ladybug. You can be a questioner. Butterfly. Butterfly. Yeah. Right, because they don't correspond. They're not like this one matches that one. They are stacking. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Okay. So an obliger. Let's think about if you could, well, I already know because I am and I use all the hacks to get stuff done. But if someone listening is not familiar, how can they use their tendency to help them not only get started, but with that follow through of those expectations of maintaining a home? Yeah, you always want to think about like what is the outer accountability for this. So like let's say you're in a family. You could say to yourself things like, I want to keep my house orderly because it'll keep me calmer and then I can show up from my family in like a more tender, attentive, less, like, rattled way. I want to keep an orderly home because I want my children to feel like they can invite their friends over and feel comfortable here.

I want to feel like a friend could drop by at any moment and I'll hold the door open with welcome and I'm not going to be like wishing that they weren't there because everything is. is messy. I'm going to think of my duty to my future self, where if we come to the end of the year and I still have this mess in the basement, I'm still going to be so annoyed with myself. I'm going to think of my duty to be a role model for other people, and I want my children to see, like, I live in this kind of home so that, like, when they go to college and they have college roommates, they know what it's like to, like, keep things in order. I want my children to be able to find what they need so that we don't have these frantic unpleasant mornings of everybody like running around looking for a Spanish textbook.

You know, there's so many ways to do it. Oh, and then one, like your children can be your policeman too. Like sometimes like I think you sort of alluded to it. Like if I do this, then we get the ice cream, right? So like if I, if we, if I don't hold to this, you're going to be disappointed. So you can also say to your kids things like, um, I said that I was going to clean out the basement. That's really important for me.

And listen, if I haven't done it by the end of the weekend, like you kids don't have to do your homework. And they'll be like, they will walk. to you like you know so there's all kinds of ways to um to like activate outer accountability there's so many imaginative ways to activate outer accountability but the key thing is you have to see that you need it because what I find I'm curious what you find is a lot of times people feel like it's kind of weak or it's kind of like training wheels that you shouldn't need to rely on I shouldn't need outer accountability like I should just automatically want to keep my house or

early. Like, of course I do. Why wouldn't I? Everybody wants that. Why would I need to, like, invite a friend over at least once a week in order to keep my house picked up? Why is it that I can't keep everything from getting dumped in the guestroom unless I tell my sister-in-law that she should come stay overnight once a month? Like, you're a big group. All of lighters are like that. There is nothing wrong with you. That's just how your brain works. That's just how your brain works. And you don't need to change it. Just use it. It is a tool to use. I love this so much. And I see this in my business all the time. So here's the thing. Three times a year, we have an all-day live declutter. And I'm always like, I'm going to see you there, you guys. And I want to see you in the comments.

And I want to see you post in your pictures. And people will show up those three days a year. We have thousands and thousands. And all the comments say, I decluttered truckloads and truckloads of stuff. And yet I couldn't any other time of the year. Why can I do it now? And I'm like, because you're an obliger. That's why.

Because it's the accountability. And so body doubling, even virtual body doubling is so powerful for an obliger because you feel accountable to that other person, even if you aren't in the same room. A thousand percent. It's such a brilliant idea. It's such a brilliant way. Because this is helping people do what they want, but they need that accountability. And it's so smart the way you're saying, like, I'll say. see you in the comments, show your pictures.

Because that is saying somebody, somebody's checking. I've got eyes on me. And I remember I was talking to like a very high end like fitness, like, you know, exercise places. And they said that they made this subtle change in the way that they asked their trainers to speak to a class is instead of saying, I'll be here next week, they say, I'll see you next week. Meaning I'm waiting to see you.

And so it's not like I'm just hanging out. It's like I'm looking for you to show up. And so these very, and this is the thing that I think is so fascinating. It's like very subtle things can be enormously significant. And something like doing like this group clutter, you might be like, oh, well, is this just some gimmick? And you're like, no, it is not because this is the thing that will unlock it. for somebody. There's so much power in that.

Yeah. And it is, I mean, it comes from understanding my tendency, but understanding other people, too, and be able to make those subtle shifts that you talked about. I can help so many more people. And they can help themselves. Honestly, it's so, okay, we're going to finish with the rebel because this is the toughest that I'm just living with a rebel. I really do.

I struggle still. I found a little workarounds, but I would love to hear from you, especially. how to meet their own expectations as a rebel. So there is a high percentage of clutterbug listeners who are rebels, even though it is a rare thing. And, yeah, bestow your wisdom on them. Okay. Yeah, you really do want to know if somebody's a rebel because that's, yourself or other people, because they're the most different from the other three. And a lot of times the strategies and tools that work for the other three don't work for rebels. So it's very helpful to know, like when a person is a rebel.

So there's a couple different strategies that you can employ for yourself or for somebody else. One is an appeal to identity. So identity is an incredibly high value to rebels. They want to put themselves out into the world. They want to live up to themselves in the world. And so if something is tied to an identity, actions flow from that because that's what you do. So if like if you're an artist, then you're going to write every day because what does an artist do? an artist creates.

And so you could say, if somebody, if you could communicate to a rubler, they could communicate to themselves, like, I am a gracious host. I set a beautiful table. I have the best food and wine. I put together the most interesting conversations. I invite people into my beautiful home. That is my identity. So am I scrambling to like pick things up because I'm supposed to or because you told me to or

because a friend is coming over? No, it is because I am a beautiful host. I want, I like to have an elegant home. I care about beauty. I love order. These are things that go to identity. Action follows from identity. And this is why if you start nagging or reminding or even praising, you can get in the way of that because they're doing it because that's what they want. They're doing because that's what they choose. So an appeal to identity. But you could also have an identity like, I'm a thoughtful partner. I know it drives you bonkers. But because I am a thoughtful partner, I will do my part. Not because I have to, not because I said I would, but because I choose to do it out of love for you. Then there's information consequences choice. You tell people the information they need, you give them

the consequences of their action or an action, and then you just let things happen. And you don't save and you don't rescue, you just let consequences fall. So you could say something like, well, you know, when you don't go through the mail and the bills don't get paid, then I don't know, our cable gets shut off. And then it's just like, okay, then you got to let that happen. If that person is supposed to pay the cable bill and they haven't gone through the mail and it's stacked up on the kitchen, it's like, okay, I guess we're just not going to have cable for a while because the bill didn't get paid. Or it's something like, okay, I want you to clean out the basement. Now, you could say something like, you know, if you clean out the basement before the weekend, then when all of the cousins are overplaying,

they can all play in the basement and be out of the way of the adults because they can just like do all their stuff down in the basement. That's good. You know, I've just had all these lightbulb moments because my husband, I think part of his identity is as a problem solver. Ooh. You know? That's a very useful one.

Okay. Yes. So he's an engineer. year and he's always looking at systems and he's always up he loves being a project manager it was his favorite part of any job he's ever had and so i thought i was manipulating him because i was i thought all rebels wanted to solve a problem but now i'm realizing that's his so i always approach something as like a problem to be solved and then he goes gung-ho and he's super motivated to do the thing because his identity, this is so good, Gretchen, is as a problem solver. So if you can identify that

core identity of a rebel, that's the, that's the fire. That's the spark. Yes. Well, and they might have multiple identities, but let's say somebody is an animal lover, then you could just, you know, say something like, oh, you know, and if they don't get their food, I guess they're just going to be hungry. I mean, now, that maybe you wouldn't want to actually let your dog get hungry. There's like certain things where you can't just let them go. If you're going to do this with a rubble. You have to pick something where, like, you could stand the consequences of them not following through. But I love this idea of an identity as a problem. And I also love the idea that you were thinking that it is inherent in the idea of a rebel, because so often we start thinking,

like, well, all rebels are like this. Even the idea that, like, all upholders are, like, sometimes people think, like, all upholders are like A plus students. And it's like, no, I've met slacker upholders. They have very low expectations for themselves. But what expectations they have? they meet. You know, but I'm like, okay, well, they don't, they don't expect much and they don't do much. So it's, but they're still in a pollter because once they decide they want to do it, they can do it. And they're kind of like, well, why can't other people do it? You know, which is sort of an assign of a polluter when you're like, well, what's everybody else's problem? I think for you in terms of like having a rebel spouse, a problem solver identity is an amazing identity. Yeah, it's pretty great.

It's so useful for you because all you just say like, well, I'm having an issue. Is there a system to solve this? Totally. And I have to, I just reframe it. Like now it's like, I'm not, I'm doing it without even thinking. I'm like, oh, man, this needs to be done. I'm like, hey, Joe, do you have any ideas of how this could be done? And then he's like, I'll take care of it.

And I'm like, cool. Right. Yeah. But the thing is if you say, if I was like, can you do this? And it's not that he doesn't want to. It's almost like that's the. roadblock. He's not even realizing it. And he probably even wants to do the thing. He just doesn't ever want to be told or feel like he's being made to do something. So I have to be very careful.

This is the key thing. It's always from freedom. It's always from choice. But here's another thing that sometimes can be activated. They often will respond to a challenge or being told that they can't do something because that activates the all. show you or watch me. So somebody was saying that with her husband, she'll often say something like, oh, well, I guess you don't have time to work out before dinner. And he'll be like, of course I do. And then he'll go work out. Or like, oh, I guess there's no way you could blah, blah, blah, like watch me or, you know, or yeah, somebody said she was trying to get her husband to quit smoking. He was a rebel. And like everybody was telling him to do it, quit, quit, quit. And of course,

he was just resisting, resisting, resisting, and then his 18 year old son said, oh, look, dad, an old guy like you, they've got you chained. You're so addicted to nicotine. There's no way you could give it up. And this father was like, you think, watch me. And he like never picked up a cigarette again. So again, sometimes people feel like, is this manipulation? It's really just about communicating with a person in a way that they're not just like,

like you say, like they just, they want to. And like you've said something that's just like, just set their teeth on edge. They just like, now they can't do. it. It's like, oh, gosh, don't say that. If we're aware of this, then we can just be so much more considerate in our communications. And I'm just, my brain's going a mile a minute because I'm thinking about all these things about Joe. I know he read this book, like the wealthy barber and rich dad, poor dad. And the way that they framed credit and debt as like someone controlling you, like the credit card. He was like, I will never have debt again. Like he, you know, and I think this is

all coming from his rebel tendency. He doesn't want, he never wanted to work for a boss. He had to be an entrepreneur. He really has this, you can't control me, don't ever put me in a box type of like fundamental core, almost value. But that can be positive or negative. It's a path. And this is true of all the tendencies. The upsides are the downsides. The strengths are tied to the weaknesses. So like sometimes people are about like, well, upholder, they're like, well, upholders are great. they meet outer and inner expectations. And I'm like, yeah, but we're really rigid because it's really hard for us to be flexible once we get our mind set on something.

Like we just like, sometimes we meet expectations where it doesn't make any sense to do it because we're just like, we don't even stop to say, should I do that? Like my husband's a question and I will often say like, should I do this? And he'll be like, why would you do that? I mean, there's power in all of them. But the problem is you need to understand like, well, what are the downside so that you can kind of figure out how to work with it. So you don't experience the downsides. You only get the benefit of the upsides. Or if you're dealing with somebody in there, you don't, you don't do it in the

way that's right for you because it might be very wrong for them. Like this is something that you often see with obligeers and rebels. Rebels, they really dislike the idea of somebody holding them accountable, right? But obligeers need somebody to hold them accountable. And so they often don't understand, they're like, you know, or like as an upholder, I'd say to an obliter, I don't need to be your babysitter, do your own work in your own way. Like, you know, just come back to me when you get it done. And an obliger is like, that is not helpful. Yeah, it's not helpful. Why would I talk? Why would I, that that's not helpful. So by understanding, we have, we have self compassion and then we also have more compassion for others. And so I love that the idea that like you can communicate with

your husband in a way that it's like it, it gives him the satisfaction of living up to his identity and showing his prowess and problem solving instead of constantly making him fight the impulse. to resist doing ordinary tasks. And I think it just dawned on me why I think I have such a high percentage of rebels in my core clutterbug community because my tagline, the thing I'm always saying is you're not messy, you organize differently. You are an organized person. Your brain just needs a different system.

And now I'm realizing that appeals to a rebel in a way. in a way that I didn't see before you said this. Well, and maybe even the identity of I am a ladybug. So I'm going to do my ladybug things. Yes, and it's not because you're telling me to, but because this is how my brain works. So it takes something that perhaps the rebel has felt like bad about in the past, not being able to manage their home or manage systems in a different way.

And now they see it as a strength and they see it as something to be proud of. and it's reframing their, they're like, now they want to do it and they're feeling really excited about something that otherwise, like before they weren't. But maybe the all day video thing doesn't work for them because they're like, I don't want to show up at 10 a.m. on Saturday. Like, why would I want to limit myself that way? But you could do something like, it's the boot camp challenge. For those of you who are the hardcore ladybugs, today is the challenge. And like, go off and do it and come back to us and tell us what you did. And then they're like, whoa, I'm going to do it, you know, because they like that challenge. But it's like in your own way, in your own time.

If it appeals to you, if this is something that's fun for you, this is something you might consider. That's the way to speak to rebels because then they're like, you know, and then it's like, oh, tell us like what like innovative creative systems did you come up with. We can all learn from each other. You know, oh my gosh, I can't wait to see what people come up with. They blow my mind with like their, they're just like their solutions that I would never that would never have occurred to me. People are like, yes, I'm amazing. I've come, even Cass has never thought of this. I can't wait to go in the comments and say what I figured

out, right? Because that's so rebel. Like, I'm going to show you what I can do. My power, my choice, my freedom, my identity. Very, very rebel. Oh, it's so good. Okay. I hope you listening have some idea of your organizing style and the family members. Not that we're manipulating. We're changing the way we communicate. I am so curious about two other things. I'm so sorry. I keep asking you, picking your brain. But you said that obligers and rebels pair well.

Are there other tendencies that tend to pair up? I got to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Cozy Earth. Years ago, I switched to Cozy Earth bedding. And now I got to say, I'm kind of a sheet snob. Joe and I will stay in a fancy hotel and I'll be like, these sheets are just not the same as home because it feels like luxury. They are so soft. They are temperature regulating because I get hot, hot sometimes, but never with my cozy earth sheets, but also they make beautiful pajamas. And last Mother's Day, I gifted my mom a pair from

Cozy Earth. She still raves about them, so she's getting another pair this Mother's Day too. Think about your mom. Maybe you want to treat her to cozy Earth pajamas or goals. gorgeous, incredible luxury sheets without the luxury prices. And right now, just for my listeners, you can save up to 20% off. So go to cozyearth.com and use the promo code Clutterbug to save today. And if you get a survey afterwards, let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Clutterbug podcast. Are there other tendencies that tend to pair up? Obligure Rebel is the one that you see most frequently and consistently. And obligers do pair up the most easily with all the other three. I will say that often a pairing that does not work

very well is a polder rebel. They just see the world in a different way. They work. They have, you know, different preferences and how they work and how they live. And so often that does come with a lot of like conflict, whether you have like an upholder boss and a rebel, you know, person who works for them or a rebel boss and an appolder who works for the rebel or like an upholder parent and a rebel child or a rebel parent and a polar child, that tends to be harder. But the other ones aren't as predictable as rebel obliter. And if you know your tendency, just like if you are a butterfly, you could have bee tendencies. So you could be like a little bit.

I know that you can kind of slant in your tendency too. So I see you with my husband, sometimes he's a little, he's rebel, but he slants a little questioner. And then I'm not sure about mine. I thought I was slanting a little rebel, but I think it's because I question everything. Maybe I'm actually a questioner. I'm like, I don't got to do it that way just because everybody says to, is that a rebel in me? Or is that more of a questioner? I think that's more rebel. So if you imagine the way to think of the tendencies is four overlocking, interlocking circles. So it's like a Venn diagram. So each of the tendencies overlaps with two other tendencies. So like you're an obliger, so you overlap on one side with upholder because you both readily meet outer expectations.

And then on the other side, you overlap with rebel because you both resist inner expectations. So depending on whether you sort of tip one way or the other, that does color your tendency. So two people could be obligers, but they might look very different depending on whether they tip upholder or tip rebel. If it sounds like to me, like you're sort of like, well, you can't tell me. how to do it. I'm going to find my own way. That is kind of more of like a rebel flavor. And so maybe you're an upholder who tips to rebel. I will say, though, that obligers who tip to rebel are more likely to suffer from oblige your rebellion, which is when they meet,

meet, meet expectations and then suddenly they snap and say, this I won't do. And they'll quit a job or end of friendship or just say, I'm not going to answer your emails for like two weeks because they feel sort of ignored or taken advantage of. Now, even obligers who tip to you, to upholder can have that, but oblige your suit tip to rebel can often have that more. Does this ring, does this strike a chord with you? This is me. So I, this is the most therapy. I'm just going to fire my therapist because Gretchen, this is what I do.

I take, take, take, take people's crap. And then one day I just snap and I will literally never speak to that human being ever again. It's so bizarre. Like I get to a breaking point. Yes. And then I'm just, I'm done. done. Right.

This makes so much sense. Okay, so this is, this is obligeer rebellion. It is a phenomenon that is quite common. Like, you see it in movies, you see it on TV. It's often, it's something that we've all seen, but it's, if you don't know what it is, it's very mysterious and confusing. And because people will say something like, why are you overreacting? Like, I make one comment and like, now you're just shutting me out.

Or they say, like, well, I asked you if you would be on the committee and you said it was fine. So I don't understand what your problem is now. But if you understand Oblige rebellion, you see the mounting resentment. You see the building anger. It's coming a mile away. Often Obligers will start acting out of character. Usually I'm very enthusiastic at work, but lately I've been doing online shopping for

hours in the middle of the day. Or a person who's usually like very patient, all of a sudden is starting to like be snappish. And this happens when obligeers feel like they're neglected, taken advantage of, exploited. unheard. And then they just explode. And it's meant to protect the obliger because it's like expectations have become unbearable. So Obligia rebellion will blow up this situation to protect the obliger. The problem is that sometimes it has a lot of damage. It can have reputational costs. It can be very, very confusing to the people around you because it's not a managed pushback. It's not like, I don't think that it's fair that I'm being assigned to all of the drudge work.

I think that other members of the team should also be. No, it's just like, it's just, I'm quitting. I'm walking out the door. It's over. It's done. I'm out. And so, um, so it's interesting that you've, that you, so you have experienced this. Okay, like, give me an example.

And I'm so interested in oblige your rebellion. Oh my gosh. Okay. All the time. Like, I have cut out family members for my life with just like, I'm like, I'm done with you, boundary. And then have to reevaluate that like, this was an extreme. overreaction, but I still want to keep that boundary. But it came out of nowhere with employees.

There's days where I'm like, I'm firing them. And then like a week later, I'm like, they're the best ever. Like, what is going on? I get to a point where I just am done. And they're like it like it's not healthy. But now that I have a name, see, this is why, this is what I needed. I needed to understand. And I need. And I need it. And I need it. needed to have this language around it to be able to realize when I'm starting to tip that way. Well, and here's some accountability to help you deal with that because you could say, I have to tell this family member that their constant requests for favors is making me feel very burdened and resentful because if they don't step back, I may cut off ties altogether

and that would be much worse for them and for me. And so in order to protect, the relationship, I need to explain how I'm feeling. Because a lot of times obligers, like, this is part of why they get taken advantage of is they just sort of cheerfully do it, do it, do it, instead of saying, why would I, I don't have time for this, you're asking too much. And Cass, this is why they often pair up well with rebels. Because they're feeling like, oh my gosh, this family member, they're asking this, they're asking that, but how can I say no, it's family? And the rebel says, you don't have to do what they say. I know. Come with me.

We can ignore it all. And the obliger is like, this is amazing. I'm free. Like somebody is giving me is like freeing me. So that can be really good, but sometimes it can be really, it can go out of control. And sometimes you do, you're like, oh my God. Because obligeers often do, they use metaphors of explosion, volcanoes, lids being blown off. I go nuclear.

I go in nuclear. And it does. I go nuclear. And it doesn't. But you know what's so cool. It feels out of control. And that's, it is out of control. But Joe, we've been together 20 years.

He is now wreck it. And he's like, hey, no, you're not. You're giving too much. I can tell you don't. See? You're not. And I'm like, you're just so selfish. And you're just.

But then I'm like, I obliged to him. And I need it. I need him to recognize. That is. That is. That is so powerful. So that's part of why it's a successful pairing. But you don't have to be in marriage for this.

Like you could be in a workplace and like somebody could go into their manager. Like another obliger could go into their manager for somebody else and be like, Hey, I don't know if you know, but like Cass is on seven projects right now. And everybody else is like a two or three. Like I really don't think that that's fair. Right. Like somebody else can step up for you or they could say, you know, or you could go to a friend and say, you know, I just got assigned to my seventh project.

Do you think that's like what's up with that? They'd be like, Cass, you got to go in there. That's not fair. Like, what are you? You're being exploited. This is crazy. Like, you got to do. And then you're like, you're right.

You know, I can't. Oh, now you've given me a big pep talk. I have to go in there and talk to my boss. These are ways of. And we have to so we don't go nuclear. That's the thing. If we understand, if we don't, we're going to get to a blow up place where we're going to have catastrophic, like, situations arise.

Exactly. And I see, I see examples of this all the time where somebody will be like, oh, you know, my son was planning his wedding and I made one little comment about oh it's too bad that he said that they're that they're only inviting family and so like my husband's best friend couldn't come and all of a sudden he exploded and now he doesn't want us to come to the wedding and I'm like oh you think it's one comment I bet to that kid it felt like a you know like went on for months and probably ties into things for years it's not coming out of the blue but he never said anything but he never said anything I never said I never say anything and then I explode. This is Gretchen, you're changing my life again. How many times? It's crazy. Thank you. I want to pick your brain because you're a genius with noticing patterns. And I... You and I both love a category. That's for sure. I love a category. They say there are two kinds of people. The type of people who like to divide people into two types and the kind of people who don't. We are the kind of people who do. I do. We also want to help people. I feel like, and we also

try to notice patterns in people's behaviors. And so what I've noticed helping clients over the years is I see the people with the messiest homes sometimes tend to have very perfectionist mindset, which doesn't sound right. Like it's like, well, if you're a perfectionist, that means you do everything perfectly. Maybe perfectionist isn't even the right word. But there's these expectations of how something's supposed to be done. If it's not going to, if it's not worth doing, worth doing right. And what I've found has been really helpful with working with clients is like, why don't you practice, I call it kind of shitty exposure therapy, doing that thing to completion as bad as possible? Like what's the worst way you could do your dishes? I'm like, then do it even

like don't rinse them. Just put them in the dishwasher. Don't line them up. Just shove them in badly. And everyone don't fold your clothes. Just shove them in the drawer, not fold. it and everyone has this like visceral reaction to like oh my god that's awful i could never and yet there's dirty dishes all over the counter and there's piles of clean clothes and baskets everywhere but the idea of finishing it badly yes but when i can convince them to try it you don't have to do it forever how about just one and sit with it and see how it feels this amazing transformation happens when there's like, oh, I'd prefer to actually do it, but I don't, like, it cracks through this, this expectation roadblock, this perfectionism roadblock. I'm actually writing a book called

Do It Shitty, which is trying to convince people to do everything shitty to find out what matters and what expectations are real and what are perceived and what actually push the needle forward. and what is just time-wasting bull crap. Because if you're a brain surgeon, go all right. This reminds me of Anne Lamott's shitty first drafts, where she's like, just write a really shitty first draft. This is it. But with everything, with your laundry, with your dishes,

with everything, to get that baseline, to get that baseline of what matters and to stop the procrastination roadblock. But here's my issue, Gretchen, is I did find a publisher who was like, okay, and they bought the book, which is awesome. But everybody I've talked to is like, why would you want to do anything shitty? So there's a language. Oh, no. There's a great G.K. Chesterton, who quote quotation where you said anything worth doing is worth doing badly. Okay. So I need to convince. So you, because this is a, I'm climbing uphill here. This is a fight uphill. And I think it's the language that I'm struggling with. And maybe it's because people are.

rebels? I don't know. Or maybe it's just that it feels very backwards of how we do everything in the world. So do you have advice for me of changing the narrative? Or do you, as an upholder, are you resistant? If I told you, hey, Gretchen, how about you just don't fold your underwear and you just toss them in the drawer? How would you feel about that? I'd feel fine. And you know what's a, well, first of all, I want to quote Voltaire, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, which I think is like the theme of your book. So you have Voltaire on your side, as well, as GK Chesterton. But here's the funny thing about upholders.

Upholders, like, are really good at leisure because they're really good at saying, like, I'm sorry, I can't work late. I have to go to my yoga class. And I'm really good at saying, like, you know what? I don't care. Like, I actually do not fold my underwear. All of my stuff is just, like, jammed into my underwear, because I'm like, I don't really care about whether my underwear is, like, what do I care?

And so it's actually easier for upholders because they're like, yeah, I've got an inner expectation that I, like, that I don't care. It's not like they're always, like, they actually are less troubled, by the kind of thing that you're talking about, then obligers, because they have the inner weight of their own inner expectation. And if they start getting too pulled towards that kind of red tape, the tightening of rules getting tighter and tighter,

they can always say, like, but what really matters to me? And they can always kind of seek refuge in their own inner expectation. So what you're talking about is often very typical of obligers, I think. And I wonder, I think you said, you talked about procrastination. And I think one way to, I would think about this in terms of like procrastination and loophole.

And it's the kind of thing like where people say, well, if I can't do it perfectly, it's not worth doing it at all. And so it's just like a big, it's just a big procrastination because it's like, well, until I have the time and the energy to do it perfectly, then I'm off the hook. Like there's no reason to do it. And so I think it is, it is a way to see it as, I like the way you framed it, which I think is more positive than just saying like, well, you're just procrastinating. because it is a kind of loophole, which is what I would call it. So there's 10 categories of loopholes. These are like the justifications we have to let ourselves off the hook.

And I would say that loophole is a questionable assumption loophole. So questionable assumption is something like, well, if I drink on an airplane, it doesn't count. It's like, yeah, it's a questionable assumption. Or that's actually this doesn't count. That's the this doesn't count loophole. What's another questionable assumption? Another questionable assumption is it'll be easier if I start in a month. Is it going to be easier when you start in a month?

But this is the questionable assumption of it's not worth doing if I can't be perfect. Is that true? Would you agree to that? Probably the people themselves would say like, no, I don't really agree with it. It would be better to be 80% than where I am now. But they sort of can't, they have to think through the questionableness of that assumption. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of people there.

there's also a lot of people who struggle with like literally the anxiety of doing something wrong. And I wonder if this is like school programming, like you have to get an A plus and you're a failure if it isn't perfect or if I don't know where this comes from. But there's this. I wonder if it's like if you don't do it at all, you're not being graded. But if you try, then you're graded. This is like, you know, with kids, they say sometimes kids won't study at all because they think if I don't do any work, then my bad grade is an reflection on my intelligence. But if I really try and I don't do well, then people will think that I'm not smart. And so if I don't try at all, I'm not graded. But if I try, then I enter into

judgment. This is what I think is the real root here. Is the feeling of, if I don't try, I haven't failed. And I don't have to feel that yet. Okay. So you're saying, just do so little that it's almost like not even trying. It's like no one is saying that you're making a real, like you're 100% effort. You're just making a minimal effort. Yeah, I need to reframe it. And you can get 100% on doing a shitty job.

You have an A plus. You get an A plus and sucking. You get an A plus and a D. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. No, this is, this kind of relate, I sort of, every month, I make a stack of all the books that I've read. And I realized that just that little bit of like reporting was making me want to get credit or even in my own mind getting credit for books. And so it was hard for me to put down a book even if I didn't like it.

So now I also make a list of the books that I didn't finish. So I get credit for not finishing. I'm like, yes, don't finish a bad book. That's what you want to do. A plus and not finishing. I had to give myself credit for it because otherwise I was just like being pulled. I was being pulled toward that I want I want to do it right. I think that's it. I think that's this underlying society taught thing that if we're not doing it all the way, we are a failure. We will be judged. We will be shamed. Like get the A plus or bad things happen kind of thing. So we A plus everything. Or if they can't A plus it now, they're just like, oh, I don't want to get a D. Nobody wants to get a D. But man, life isn't all essays.

and brain surgery, it's a lot of dishes and food and vacuuming the floor every single day until we die. So, yes, we're changing the narrative. But I think that's so fascinating that someone is like, I am so fastidious a housekeeper that all my clothes are in baskets and none of my dishes are done. But like that makes sense in some kind of like double mind. This is this, yes, because they're going to do it perfectly. So it isn't they just, it's in like the way zone, so therefore it doesn't count as failure because it's in process still. It isn't completed.

But see, this is another way you could get to this through the tendencies because you could be like, okay, if you're in a, well, probably you're not in a upholder. But if you're in a pollter, just put it on the calendar. I'm going to do this for half an hour every day. Whatever it is, doesn't matter. Just a half an hour, do whatever you feel like. If you're a question, it's like, why is this slowing you down? Why is this making things take longer?

Why is this adding to your stress? Like, what is the system? If it's an obliger, it's like, invite people over. Have somebody come to stay. Think of your, you know, like, think of your mother-in-law. Have your mother-in-law. Have your mother-in-law come and stay and get it. But, you know, and then if you're a rebel, it's like, I choose, I choose a different way.

I choose to do something different. I choose to let go of for, I don't want to be controlled by society's false ideals of perfectionism. I make my own standard. I will maintain the level that makes sense for me, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. So you can plug in your tendency to like keep you on that path of the B plus. Yeah.

The B plus or the C. Or the C students from the world. The C, the C. I mean, a lot of things don't need to be done. And it takes getting from 90 to 100 takes so much work versus. getting from zero, you know, to 60. Life's too short, my friend, to fold your underwear and triangles. Okay, thank you.

You heard it from the great Gretchen Rubin. She also agrees. That's kind of a good subtitle. Life's too short. I like that. Life's too short to fold your underwear and triangles. So good. At least it's a line somewhere in the book for sure.

That is a great line. Thank you so, so much. I'm going to put a link to, of course, the four tendencies and all other amazing things. Let my listeners know, though, you're doing something pretty cool with move in 26. How can they follow along with that challenge? Yes, come to my site, follow along with move 26. Every year, I have a podcast too, happier with Gretchen Rubin that I do with my sister. And every year we challenge ourselves and listeners to some, to something like it was read 25 and 25, to read 25 minutes a day in 2025. And it's moved 26 and 26. So just move your body for

26 minutes. It could be stretching. It could be yoga. It could be clearing your clutter because one of the things about clearing clutter is you got to be moving around. And it's like instead of thinking like, oh my gosh, I'm just going back and forth from one room to the other. You think this is amazing. I'm doing my move 26 and I'm getting my house cleaner. It's like a double win. Look at me. Yeah. So everything's on my site, Gretchenrudeau.com. Plus if you want to take a quiz, I have a quiz to tell you what your tendency is. It's like, I don't know, three and a half million people have taken that quiz. It's all at Gretchenrubin.com. So. So much, lots of stuff there. All my listeners, you need to know your tendency, but you also need to know the tendency of the people who live in the home with you and your coworkers and your parents. And it will help you not manipulate, communicate. We could do Game of Thrones characters. We could do the office characters. Like, once you know what you're looking for, you see these, you see these types everywhere.

See it everywhere. Mm-hmm. Well, thank you so much. This is amazing. I'm just blown away by your brain. how incredibly helpful all of your insight is to me and to the entire world. So thank you so much for being here. Well, Cass, thank you so much for having me. I feel like we could talk all day. We're interested in so many of the same things. We are. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed this podcast as much as I did.

And crazy thing, while you're listening to this, I am on a plane flying to Gretchen Rubin's house. Stop! How nuts a butz is this? Like, I'm going to Gretchen Rubin's house. And we are doing a home makeover for someone together. And if you would have told me 15, if you would have told me two years ago, if you would have told me six months ago, but 15 years ago when I picked up my first book from Gretchen Rubin that I would be going to her house and working on a project with her, what? I never would have believed it. Like, what the heck is happening here? It is the biggest honor of my life. And I can't wait for you to see this video. And honestly, guys, dreams come true. Put something cool on your vision board right now. Don't get emotional, you weirdo. She sees me cry.

She'll never want to talk to me again. Okay. I'm cool too, Gretchen Rubin. Anyways, thank you guys so much and I'll see you next time. Rosen lasagna, medium power, 15 minutes. Sounds like Ojo time. Let's play. Feel the fun with Play Ojo. online casino with all the latest slot and live casino games. What you win is yours to keep with no wagering requirements, instant payouts, and no minimum withdraws. Hey, I just won. Woohoo. Feel the fun. Play Ojo. Honey, forget about the lasagna. Let's celebrate. 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned about your gambling or that of someone close to you. Call 16-531-2600 or visit conXontario.ca.ca.