Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - Learn how to STOP buying more stuff with Joshua Fields Millburn from The Minimalists | Clutterbug Podcast # 237

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

In this episode, I'm joined by Joshua Fields Millburn, co-founder of The Minimalist Podcast. Together, we discuss the struggle of consumerism and how we can stop being tricked into buying more useless stuff.  Joshua shares his own path to minimalism offering invaluable strategies and wisdom on how you can start your own path towards a simpler more intentional life. Whether you're ready to embrace minimalism or just looking to declutter your home, this episode will inspire you to make meaningful changes.  Learn more about The Minimalists here: https://www.theminimalists.com/ Check out The Minimalists game here: https://www.theminimalists.com/game/ Watch Minimalism: A Documentary About the Important Things here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8DGjUv-Vjc       You can find more Clutterbug content here: Website: http://www.clutterbug.me YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@clutterbug TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/   #clutterbug #podcast #theminimalists #joshuafieldsmillburn   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, Clutterbugs. Welcome back to the Clutterbug podcast. Today is going to be one of the most inspiring podcast that I've ever done. And I am so honored to be interviewing the incredible Joshua Fields Milburn. Joshua is half of the minimalist. You've probably seen their documentary on Netflix. They have two documentaries now on Netflix. Their first one, Minimalism, a documentary about the important things and it was so inspiring, so incredible. They also have an very popular podcast and multiple New York Times bestselling books. I think Joshua is probably the leader of the minimalist movement. He has been a minimalist since 2009 and definitely brought it into the limelight and made it popular, made it what it is today. So having him on this podcast is so inspiring. And I

really want to talk with him about the other side of decluttering. So we know the power of letting go. We know how amazing it is to have less and living with less. But how do we stop continually acquiring more? Let's talk to Joshua about that right now. So welcome Joshua to the Clutterbug podcast. I'm so honored to have you here. Thank you so much. It's a joy to speak with you. Thank you so much. I asked Joshua before we started. recording if it was okay if we got weird and he was just like yeah let's go weird he he didn't even ask like what i meant by that you were just like yeah let's be weird yeah you know what i i'm open i'm an open book i'm happy to talk about anything i don't get hung up on on labels or concepts and so if something's

weird to someone else it might be perfectly normal to us and i don't think you're going to think this is weird but here's the reality of the situation i've been decluttering for 12 years. I'm fully on board with like living with less. But for some reason, the thought of being a minimalist calling myself that I feel like a physical reaction to like, but no, I love my stuff. Do you hear this a lot? Sure. I mean, I think when we declutter, there are a couple ways to do it. I think the easiest way to clutter your stuff is to get rid of most of it. And that's what I mean when I talk about minimalism because the other way is what I did for a really long time when I was successful in the corporate world. I had amassed all the trophies of success, the big house

in the suburbs with more bedrooms than people. And I had the cars in a two and a half car garage, which I don't even know what that means. I had 70 dress shirts. Now, what the heck am I going to do with set it's going to i'm going to have to work really hard to wear 70 different dress shirts i had 12 different suits i had 10 pairs of dress shoes not to mention my sneakers and flip flops and burkinstocks and all of these other things and in isolation there's nothing wrong with any of those things in fact here's the weird paradox as a minimalist i actually get far more value from the few items that i own than if they were watered down by hundreds of thousands of trinkets if you saw our last Netflix film, you'll know that according to the Los Angeles Times, the average American

household has 300,000 items in it. And at first, I think that would be awesome if that was leading to more bliss and contentment and joy and thriving in our lives. But you and I know the opposite often happens. The stuff gets in the way of the experience of life. So no, I'm not against stuff, but I also understand that sometimes a label like minimalist, it's really helpful as a label. It is not helpful at all as an identity. I don't identify as a minimalist. That's not who I am. I'm still the same person as when I had 300,000 items in my home.

The label that I've adopted now is really useful as a description. I'm standing here or sitting here in the minimalist studio in West Hollywood, California. and I'm looking over here and there's a couch. That couch doesn't identify as a couch. It's simply a label that we use to describe the couch. And when I say there's a couch over there, even though you can't see it, you can at least conjure an image of what might be over there on the side of the room. And in front of it is a coffee table that also has a label.

It doesn't, it's an identity for it. And if I were to sit on it, maybe it would become a bench. And that would be a new label, right? And so I think if the label minimalist is too austere for you, then you can find something else that might fit you better. Like instead of minimalism, maybe it's enoughism or living within your means ism. You know, I'm not a particular fan of most isms because they're ideologies and then they become super rigid. What I like about minimalism is it's not a rigid ideology. It's about living a meaningful life with less.

although there's a secret piece of me that wishes, you know what, I wish there were 100 items I could own and then I hand that list out to you and hand it out to everyone who's listening to this or watching this and say, if you just own these 100 items, it's all you need. Your life will be complete and you'll be forever happy. But of course, minimalism doesn't work like that. The things that add value to my life might be clutter to you and the things that are really valuable to you might be clutter to me. And I think we see that most acutely in a lot of our sentimental items that we hold on to.

We all know that we hold on to something that, oh, it just means so much to me. You know, my grandmother had it. She passed it down to my mom. And now I have it after they've both passed on. But if I handed it to you, be like, I don't want this junk. And it doesn't mean that it's objectively junk. It's subjectively junk. And so as I started letting go, I had to ask that question, does this add value to my life?

but just because something doesn't add value to my life doesn't mean it won't add value to someone else's life. So in a weird way, decluttering or minimizing or letting go is one of the most compassionate things we can do toward ourselves, but also toward others. Because if I let go of something that I'm not getting value from, maybe someone else can get value from. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. I feel like I have put too much pressure on the word minimalism. and this idea in my brain that it means I can only have one fork per family member and that these rigid rules when it comes to it. But I should know better because I know the absolute life-changing magic.

Oh my gosh, I went there, but of having less. Like honestly, and I watched your first documentary too. And, you know, you felt so much happier with less stuff, which feels like that goes against. everything we've been taught and everything we've practiced our entire lives, which is stuff makes us happy and stuff is what we're striving for. And even though I know this, Joshua, I know that decluttering, I've seen the proof is in the pudding. My issue is with the consumerism. And that's what I really want to dig deep with you today because as much as I declutter, I just keep buying. So I'm doing this

disgusting. It's gross when I think about it. Conveyor belt. Things coming in and then it's just getting donated. My husband said, why are you even taking it out of the car? Just put it to the curb. And he's right. You know what? Consumerism. You've changed your mindset. How? This is, this is the real secret. How do we stop the madness? Well, that's an interesting question because how do we stop something usually means not doing. How questions usually mean, what can I do to simplify my life? What can I do to let go? But of course, letting go is not something you do. Letting go is something you stop doing. You stop clinging to the excess stuff. You stop saying that things are going to make me happy or complete. In fact, that's what consumerism is. Consumerism is the ideology that buying things will

make me a better person or a complete person. And we've all tried it. And so we go down that rabbit hole and we make some money. We get that paycheck on a Friday. I'm going to buy something that is going to complete me. It's going to make me better. And the lie is somewhere in the pleasure. There's nothing wrong with pleasure. Pleasure is a great byproduct, right? But we all know about the pleasure chase. In fact, it's it's baked into the American Constitution. We have the right. We have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But I would argue that the pursuit of happiness is actually the thing, the very thing that blocks our happiness.

Because what we're telling ourselves is happiness is somewhere out there. If I can consume it, then I will be happy. If I can buy it, then I will be happy. If I can own it, then I'll be happy. If I can possess it, then I will be happy. But quite often what happens is we clutter our lives with all of these. things and they give us a burst of pleasure in the moment. But that high that we experience when the cash registered dings in celebration, by the way, it's just celebrating, extracting the money from

your wallet, really. When we experience that high, it doesn't last much further than the parking lot. And it certainly doesn't last beyond when that first credit card statement shows up. And you're like, oh my goodness, what did I do? Why did I spend my money on that? And I don't even remember spending money on that. But I bought it to complete me. Do I feel more complete? In a weird way, no. I actually feel less complete. We all saw Jerry Maguire back in the day, and it's one of the most insidious things about movies about love or songs about love when the scene, when Tom Cruise's character says, you complete me. But isn't that what we're doing every day with our material possessions? Or really, the possessions that we crave, that we yearn for.

If I get that, you will complete me. You will complete me. You will complete me. But there's a weird thing. When I have a daughter, she's 11 years old, when she was a baby, when she was born, I didn't say, oh, we need to get some stuff for this baby to complete her. Well, no, she was already born complete. Well, when do we become incomplete?

Well, somewhere between birth and adulthood, we were sold this drug of, of pleasure and happiness and acceptance. And oh, people will accept me if I have the right things. Or people will love me if I have the right things. People will applaud me if I have the right things. But they're not applauding you then. They're applauding your car or your house or your granite countertops. And there's nothing wrong with any of those things.

But needing those things is what creates the prison of consumerism. And that's why it becomes a cycle. The cycle is, oh, it didn't work. You know what? There must be some other thing. I didn't buy the right thing to complete me or to make me better to make me happy. And that's where that cycle continues. It's called the hedonic treadmill.

You get something, and it's the object of your desire, but within six months or a year, it's no longer the object of your desire. In fact, it's the opposite. It becomes the object of your discontent. And then it's, oh, when am I going to donate this or sell this or get ready? of this, it is just in the way. And so here's what happens. We buy the things to make us happy, but they actually cover up the happiness that is already pre-existing. Happiness is your default state. And material possessions can enhance your life. They can augment your life,

but they certainly can't complete your life. Yeah, I know this, Joshua. In my soul, I know this. It's that I am easily tricked. I think at the end of the day when we're really getting to it, I'm really easily tricked. And all I got to do is look at social media or watch television. And I am like, yes, I need this to complete me. And today I had a meeting with a business that approached me. And they were like, I'm going to show you how to make a thousand dollars extra a day. And usually I would just delete this email, right?

but I thought, I'm going to give it an open mind. They work with millions of influencers all over the world, and they teach them how to use affiliate links to push products multiple times a day through Instagram stories, through Facebook, how to do mood boards, how to sell without seeming like you're going to sell. And I felt so disgusted during this meeting. I'm like I'm not going to do that. And she said to me, the majority of your followers are middle-aged women. And do you know, what a middle-aged woman does for a part-time job, they buy stuff. And if they're not going to buy it from you, they're going to buy it for somebody else because that's what they do for fun. It's what they do for a hobby. And it's what they do basically is like it's part of their being. And that

really stuck with me because I'm a middle-aged woman. And I am one of these people who compulsively buys. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? Is that, Part of that has to do with boundaries, right? And that's almost like a reprogramming, but really it's a deprogramming of what we've been programmed with. We've been programmed to consume things. And so what you're saying there that your stance is not a moral stance. What you're saying is I'm kind of grossed out by that. And with the minimalist, with our podcast, we're 100% advertisement free. We don't monetize our YouTube channel. And it's not because I think those things are evil or bad or immoral, I'm kind of grossed out by it.

The same way that like our studio here, there was dog poop when I was walking in. I saw, I almost stepped in it. And I was like, oh, wait, that's gross. I don't think it's evil. It just happens to be there's something gross on the sidewalk. And just because it's there doesn't mean that I now want to add to it. I guess I could poop next to it and that would make it better for me. No, of course not.

It would still be gross. The fact, it'd just be twice as gross. and so you're kind of grossed out by participating in that process. I had someone from a big podcast company. I won't say who, but they ran into me in a grocery store not that long ago. And they simply asked like, oh, are you interested in finding more ways to monetize your podcast? And my first gut reaction, I just said it out loud. I said, ew.

And he just laughed. And he's like, well, how do you make? How do you make money then? I'm like, I don't know. It just kind of, it shows up when I need it to show up. But like, it's never the, it's never the outcome that I'm searching for. Now, it's a great byproduct. And I'm not allergic to money.

If someone wants to show up with a bag with a million dollars and there's no strings attached, okay, that's, that's fine. I'm not an ascetic or a monk. And I'm totally fine with money. In fact, we think we all need money to pay the bills. but I think money is a great passenger. I want to pretend it's not in the car. Where we go wrong is, and you picked up on this intuitively during that call that you had,

where we go wrong is when we put money in the driver's seat. And then it starts dictating all of our actions. And so that's one boundary I have for me is, you know what, money is an important passenger in the car. We can't act like it's not important, but it's also not going to drive all of the creative decisions. that I want to make. So I could drive my life decisions either. Yeah, so it's true that some things I can't afford and that is okay. And if I were to pepper my podcast and YouTube channel,

all these other things with ads, of course, I'd have more money, but what would I be giving up? What is the tradeoff? And every boundary also helps you identify what some of your tradeoffs are. And so I think an important question then is, what are my boundaries? You just found one there. have any boundaries, then we just, we become that balloon that you let the air out of. And it's just careening from one side of the room to the other. And there's no peace or joy in that experience at all. Yeah. I mean, as an influencer, sometimes you got to do what you got to do. But I think what I'm doing is I'm not recognizing that this is what's happening in other, like I'm watching other influencers who are like, look at this beautiful outfit. Oh my gosh, I love it. I got it from

Amazon, click the link. And I think, oh, I think that's coming from a place of genuine, right? I'm falling for it. And I'm like, I will look fabulous in that too, even though she works out twice a day and doesn't eat carbs. That's, I'm not going to look like that in that gorgeous outfit. And I fall for it. And I don't want my followers. I don't want anyone to kind of be sucked. into these promises that are made. Okay, so you said you were married. Obviously, your wife is a minimalist, yeah? Is there ever sort of animosity on, like, do you guys disagree on the number of things in your home? My husband is definitely a minimalist. He just doesn't have any desire for material things. And I'm over here like, Amazon, what? Showing up every day. So this is actually, we don't

fight about money. We don't fight about really anything, but there is this like underlying disagreement about how much we need to bring into our lives. Yeah, it's funny. People often show up at our live events and the question or at least the implications of the questions that are asked are often, how do I convince my husband to get rid of his stuff? Or how do I convince my wife to declutter? How do I convince my child to stop ordering things from Amazon? And of course, going and preaching or proselytizing minimalism to someone is a surefire way to not get them on board with simplifying their lives. And I think what is fascinating is it's about understanding what the benefits of minimalism are for the other people in the household. Because simplifying has its benefits, but they tend to be different for different people.

For some people, it's just I want more financial freedom. For someone else, it's like, you know what? I just want to come home to a calmer, tidier, more serene house. I want my house to be my sanctuary. Well, the easiest way to do that is to not have a bunch of things I need to worry about and take care of. The cost of our things are way more than the price tag on the thing. It's taking care of the thing and repainting the thing and putting batteries in the thing and charging the thing. And then, oh, no, is that thing going to get stolen?

Maybe I should get insurance for the thing. right? And so there are all of these other knock-on costs that we don't consider at the checkout line or when we click that buy now, same-day shipping button that gets all of those things deliver to us immediately. And so with my wife and I and also our daughter, our daughter's 11, we all have different tastes. We all have different things that add value to our lives. And I would say that we do have similar preferences, but it is true that if I lived by myself without my wife and without my daughter, my house would have fewer items in it, right? And that is not a judgment of them.

It's certainly not an indictment on their things that they own. But we do respect each other. We don't just tolerate the other person's stuff. We have found a way to accept and appreciate the things that they have. Because if I can appreciate, you know what? My wife has these great kettlebells that she uses all the, the time. I work out every day, but I don't use kettlebells. Now, I could say, oh, why don't you declutter those? I don't use those kettlebells. But I actually appreciate the fact that she owns them

because they are useful to her. The commonality is we don't hold on to things in our home that no one is using. If it's not adding value to our lives, why continue to cling to it? That is when we become hoarders. You know, it's, we often laugh at hoarders we see on TV. It's easy to sneer and be like, oh, look at that person, all the stuff that they own. They're buried in their things. There's not even a pathway to their bathroom anymore. Their exits are blocked. And maybe there's even like pet feces in the house. And that's a stage five hoarder. But the truth is most of us are hoarders these days. There are five stages of hoarding. Stage one hoarding is light clutter in two or more rooms. Well, that describes, I think, most of us for sure, right? And so while no one in our household is a hoarder,

we do get value from different things. And I can either feel a resentment toward their things, or I can find the joy that they experience in those things. I never leapt up and said, I'm a minimalist and told my daughter, you need to become a minimalist too. She understood the benefits I was experiencing, but talking to her is much more about talking about the benefits she might experience by living with less, having more room to play in her room, getting rid of toys she no longer plays with so that other kids might be able to enjoy those toys. Identifying the benefits for her without dictating or being didactic in the presentation of you should decrees. clutter. You should minimize. You should let go. That sort of preaching rarely works. It certainly doesn't allow them the dignity to let go on their own. That's so good. I'm curious about your, how you feel other people should approach decluttering because there's a lot of different techniques.

And for me, I'm just a little bit, whenever I feel a little bit overwhelmed, I fill a bag or I fill a box. Like, I know that's when I just have to do a little bit, and it calms me. I think I'm kind of using it as therapy. But if you look at the Marie Condo approach, it's make a giant pile of every article of clothing you own and, like, rip off that band-aid. There's so many different approaches when it comes to decluttering that I think that's overwhelming, especially for the perfectionists. And you probably know a lot of perfectionists really struggle with clutter. So do you have advice for someone listening who's like, I definitely want to do this, but I don't even have any idea how to do it. I don't have any advice, but I have some observations from my own life and from the millions of

other people whose lives I've seen simplified over the last 15 years. And what I'll say is there are no should. There's no way that you should declutter, but there are a bunch of ways that you could declutter. And for me, it always starts with that question. How might your life be better with less? Now, that sounds like a how question, but it's really a why question. Why will simplifying improve my life? Another way to think about that is, how might your life be more with less? And it could be I have more space to do the things I want to do. It means I have more freedom.

I have more time. I have more spaciousness on my calendar. So I'm not so busy, busy, busy all the time. We call that calendar clutter, by the way. And so how might your... your life be more with less as a great starting point. It's a great question to ask before we get into the how to side of things. Yes, there are mechanical things we can do. There are techniques that we can embrace that help the mechanics of simplifying. But the reason that first question is

so important is anyone can go declutter their closet. There's a reason you've never seen the minimalist do a episode on the 67 ways to declutter your closet. Because if you don't know why you're decluttering, the how to will not really help you beyond the initial stages. Because if you don't know why, your closet that you just decluttered will be brimming with new purchases a week from now, a month from now, a year from now, it'll be re-cluttered again. So we have to first understand the why. And as soon as we understand the why, the how begins to manifest on its own, so to speak. And I mean, there are extreme ways to do it. You can look at Ryan Nicodemus, my. the partner in the minimalists. My best friend since we were fat little fifth graders, he did a packing

party. He wanted to do an extreme thing where he boxed up everything in his home and he pretended he was moving and over the course of 21 days unpacked only the items he needed. At the end of that, it was like, oh my gosh, I still have 80% of my stuff in boxes. I don't even remember what's in most of these boxes. And that was his light bulb moment to let go of the things that were no longer serving him in a meaningful way. That's a bit too extreme for most people. And so the other way that you can start is with the 30-day minimalism game. It's something we came up with years ago. It's an iteration of how I started simplifying my life. I don't know about you, but for me, decluttering can be kind of boring. It's like, oh, it's not like I'm looking forward to decluttering

my closet or my basement or my attic. It's just something that I know I want to get rid of the stuff, but oh it's kind of boring i feel i feel a little bit of friction here a little bit of discontent and so we found a way to make decluttering a bit more fun we call it the 30-day minimalism game you can download the free calendar on our website it's the minimalists dot com slash game and here's how it works you partner up with a friend or a family member or a co-worker and you bet something a beginning of the month maybe you bet a dollar or a really nice meal or tickets to a concert whoever wins has to pay for that thing And so at the beginning of the month, the first day, you each get rid of one item. So it starts off really easy.

Because as you said, decluttering could be really overwhelming. You walk into your home and you say, oh, no, I have hundreds of thousands of items in here. I don't even know where to get started. I don't care where you get started. Just get rid of one item on the first day. Anyone can get rid of one item. Second day, two items. Third day, three items.

So you start to get a little bit more momentum. It's still pretty easy. But by the middle of the month, you're like, uh-oh, it's day 16. I have to get rid of 16 items today. And wait a minute. Tomorrow I have to get rid of 17 items. And so you keep going. Whoever goes the longest wins, if you both make it to the end of the month, well,

then you've both won because you've gotten rid of about 500 items, which is a really good start. And I find that people tend to not stop there. We've had hundreds and actually thousands of people keep going beyond that. Day 33, day 34, they just keep letting go. We even have some people who start over at the beginning of the next month. So, all right, it's a new month, one thing today, two things tomorrow, and you keep that momentum going. The only real rule is by midnight that item has to be out of my home and thus out of my life. That is another boundary.

Finally, if you were looking for some decluttering boundaries, we wrote something called the 16 Rules for Living with Less. We call it the minimalist rulebook, but it's not really a rule book. It's a book of boundaries that we can place on our own life. My favorite of those 16 rules is what I call the spontaneous combustion rule. You could pick up any item in your home. You just look at it. You hold it in your hand. You say, okay, if this thing spontaneously combust it right now, would I replace it?

Or would I feel a sense of relief? And if the answer is, I would feel a sense of relief. well, that's a sign that I want to let it go. However, the answer is I would definitely replace this thing. I have this glass here right now, and I drink from this glass every day here in our studio. And if this thing were to shatter or spontaneously combust, I would definitely replace it because it's something I use every day. But if I had something else over here, I don't have a good example because I don't have any of these things anymore. But if I had something else where I'm like, oh, yeah, if that thing just went up in smoke, I'd feel a, I'd feel a, I'd have.

feel a weight lifted off my shoulders, well, that is a definite sign that I want to let that go. Yeah. Oh, this good. Yeah, your rules are genius. And I'm going to definitely put links to those in the show notes. Do you have some parting words of wisdom? Because I think the most impactful thing that I'm hearing from you is you made a mindset shift. And you made a mindset shift about your stuff and then your actions followed.

Right? you were like, I'm, I'm done with this consumerism. I am like, I'm only keeping what I need. And the result of that was a more functional, simplified life. It's the mindset shift. I think that is the tough part. And I'm asking you to solve the world's problems here, but do you have some parting words of wisdom about that mindset shift? Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to the stuff, there's nothing wrong with it. it. We can see it. We can be aware of it. The problem with consumerism is it's the opposite of awareness. It's the opposite of intentionality. We're not stepping back and asking those questions.

How might my life be better with less is a great way to start being intentional about the things that we're holding on to. We're not just holding on to them. We're clinging to them. And so I don't have to just let go of everything, drop everything. I can first just loosen my grip. I loosened my grip by asking myself some of those questions, becoming more aware of those things. Does this thing add value to my life? Why have I given so much meaning to my material possessions? What is my definition of success? And how is that serving me now? Because usually our definition of success is what? In fact, we often do this at the minimalist live events. I'll ask someone in the crowd, I want you to picture a magazine photo of a successful person, what do they look like? And they usually have on a nice suit

or a really nice cocktail gown, evening gown for a formal event, right? They have on some expensive jewelry. It might be a necklace or a fancy watch. They are certainly standing in front of a luxury car, right? And they have their big house and their manicured lawn. And maybe they literally, like I did, had a white picket fence. And that becomes our definition of success. It's a cosmetic definition of success. And we become programmed with, if I acquire those things, then I will be successful. But many of the successful people I know, I know a lot of multimillionaires and I even know at least one billionaire, I know a lot of successful people who are unhappy. And so if you become successful, but the cost of your success is happiness, that sounds like failure to me. And so

redefining, recontextualizing, what is success? We know that it's not trinkets. We know that a trophy isn't going to make you a better person. A trophy is just a relic that points to something that happened in the past, and the past doesn't even exist anyway. The only thing that exists is the present moment right here, right now. And then more followers on social media. Is that going to make you successful? Well, it depends on what you mean by success. But a million more followers isn't going to make you a million times happier. In fact, it's not going to make you happier at all. In fact, it has the possibility to make you less happy because now you're getting more criticism, more disapproval, more frustration, more anger from everyone you, you,

you've never met. You know, the minimalist recently walked away from social media, even though we had four million followers who reached half a billion people on social media last year, we decided that, hey, if we can do this with our things, if we can step away from something temporarily, not depriving ourselves forever, but if you can step away and deprive yourself temporarily, you can figure out what things actually add value to your life. And I think that's true not only with our material possessions. It's true with relationships.

It's true with creativity. It's true with our careers. It's true with our calendars and our busyness. It's true with our digital clutter as well. And so we said, hey, we're not renouncing social media. But what if we temporarily deprive ourselves of it? So we can figure out whether or not it was actually adding any value to our lives at all. And that is how we wake up.

That's how we become more. aware. We step away from the consumerism. We step away from the purchases for a period of time and we figure out, does this add value to my life? If so, I don't want to deprive myself. But if not, I don't want to cling to it either. Oh, that's so good. I want to do a social media cleanse right now. Okay. And also, listen, my listeners, if earlier when I was talking about as an influencer being told that I can make $1,000 a day selling you stuff and telling you, if that also makes you feel gross, the idea of people hawking crock pots to you that they've never even tried just so they can make a buck, if that feels gross, I feel like try to be aware of the other side of the coin,

which is you purchasing that crock pot, which is equally as gross, right? Let's look at this as a full circle because that's exactly what it is. And let's stop the cycle on both sides, perhaps. Yeah. We end every show with love people use things because the opposite never works. And so I think it's okay to love ourselves and even those fears and those failures and give ourselves some grace for some of those decisions we've made when we were unintentional, when we were unaware of what we were doing. And as soon as you become aware, that's when you start to say like, oh, maybe that is kind of gross, or I just don't like that. This doesn't feel right to me. And that is okay. That's a sign that I want to let go. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Well, thank you so much.

I'm feeling inspired to literally just go put some stuff in a donation box right now. And I know my listeners are too. Please share with everyone how they can find more about you and how they can access some of your great programs and books, where should they go? Well, we like to keep it simple. If you want to listen to our podcast or you want to check out any of our films or series, you want to find our old social media post, even though we're not on there right now. If you want to find anything in terms of the minimalists, our books, et cetera, it's all at the minimalists.com. We also have that free e-book that you can download right now. It's called The Minimalist Rule Book, 16 Rules for Living with Less. You can find it over there as well.

which is so good. And I'm going to put links to that in the show notes. Thank you, Joshua, so much. I'm feeling inspired. I'm feeling like very inspired to be more intentional about my buying. I've already feel like I got the decluttering down pat, but if I don't stop it from coming in, I'll be on the cycle forever. So thank you. It's a joy to speak with you. You too. Thank you so much. And thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next time.