Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - Unlocking Motivation with Gretchen Rubin: Lessons on Clutter and Life | Clutterbug Podcast # 236

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

Today I had the privilege of interviewing one of my heroes, the incredible Gretchen Rubin. Learn Gretchen’s biggest takeaways from The Happiness Project and how to use her system, The Four Tendencies to motivate yourself and others.  My favourite part was getting to diagnose her organizational style!  If you are looking for some decluttering and life motivation, this podcast is for you! You don’t want to miss this wonderfully entertaining and educational podcast!  Gretchen Rubin is one of today’s most influential and thought-provoking observers of happiness and human nature. She’s known for her ability to convey complex ideas—from science to literature to stories from her own life—with levity and clarity. She’s the author of many bestselling books, such as The Happiness Project, Better Than Before, and The Four Tendencies, which have sold millions of copies in more than thirty languages. Her most recent book is Life in Five Senses. She’s also host of the popular podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, and founder of award-winning Happier app, which helps people track their happiness-boosting habits. Learn more about Gretchen Rubin and her books, podcast and other life lessons here: https://gretchenrubin.com/ Take the Free Four Tendencies Quiz here: https://gretchenrubin.com/quiz/the-four-tendencies-quiz/ #happierpodcast #gretchenrubin     You can find more Clutterbug content here: Website: http://www.clutterbug.me YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@clutterbug TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/   #clutterbug #podcast #gretcheinrubin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today is an incredibly exciting day for me because guess what? I'm interviewing one of my heroes, and she's probably one of your heroes too. Today we're talking with the incredible Gretchen Rubin. Yeah, I know. If you've been a fan of the Clutterbug podcast or watch me on YouTube, you know I am always shouting out from the rooftops, Gretchen and her incredible writing skills. She started out years ago as a lawyer and then moved to writing. And I'm so glad she made that decision because her books, including The Happiness Project, Happier at Home, The Four Tendencies, Outer Order, Inner Calm. I mean, I could go on.

She has so many New York Times bestselling books, all of which I would recommend. And I think of as some of the best self-help books ever written. Not only that, but she is the host of Happier with Gretchen Rubin, which is an award-winning incredible podcast. She hosts it with her sister, and it's actually the only podcast that I consistently listen to. So inspiring, so motivating. And I am honored to introduce you to Gretchen Rubin right now. Welcome the incredible Gretchen Rubin to the Clutterbug podcast. All my listeners know because I shout you out from the rooftops on a weekly basis. What an honor this is to have you here. So welcome. Well, I'm so happy to be talking to you. Thank you. This is incredible. So the happiness

project was the second self-help book I've ever read in my life. And as a high school, it was the secret. Do you remember that? Of course. Roa, what was her last name? Yeah, huge, huge, huge, huge. It was huge. And that was my first experience with self-help, but it didn't do anything for me. But I picked up the happiness project. And I'm sure you know when you read a self-help book that just like is a punch in the gut, you're like, this is life-changing that. Wow. I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah, that's, that's 100% what I felt. And like a drug, I became a junkie, a self-help book junkie, kind of chasing that same high that I got from the happiness project. So I would love to start talking about that book because I will always maintain, I mean, I could be biased, but that is one of the greatest

self-help books ever written because it had such a profound impact on my life and millions of other people's lives too. So I would love to start with the Happiness Project. Let's talk about it. I love talking about that book. That was one of the, with every book I write, I think, oh, this book is the most fun. It'll never be this good again. And I did love writing that book so much. And it was exciting that it resonated with so many people. for sure. Yeah, absolutely changed my life. And I think just right when you first jump in, one of the things that I found so impactful was your 12 commandments. So you had like these overarching principles and rules for your life, which is something that I never even considered before.

I'm curious, they were like, be Gretchen, let it go. Have your commandments evolved over time? Have they changed? You know what? They have not. Now, when I was coming up with that list of 12, they evolved a lot. Like the list kept growing and shrinking and changing. And I was sort of trying to find like kind of the right level of transcendence for that list. But I have to say all that work, then I really did land on the 12 for me. So yeah, that that has persisted. Enjoy the process. As, you know, all those are still are still my 12 commandments. One of my favorites is spend out. And I use this actually all the time with my clients. Again, I had never heard of this concept before, but this is something that a lot of perfectionist mindset deal with. Can you explain the spend out principle? Well, and it comes up a lot with clutter. So the idea of spend out is I'm kind of somebody who holds things back. And so I will like, oh, all my white t-shirts are looking really yellow and bedraggled. So I'll buy some new white t-shirts. But then I will save the new. white t-shirts. I'm like, oh, they're so nice and perfect and all folded. I'll just,

and I'll keep wearing my bad white t-shirts because I don't want to spend out and use up my white t-shirts. So you see this with cooking, you know, fancy spices or fancy oils or fancy ingredients or beautiful stationary. Even China, where you're sort of like, you don't really use up China. But one of the most poignant stories I ever heard was a woman who said, you know, my mother had died. We were cleaning out of her house. And I discovered a whole set of like her best china that I had never seen. There was no occasion in our lives where that was deserving of the best China. And she said, now I use that China every day. So it's because I do kind of hold things back. This is also with creativity. My sister, who's also the co-host of the Happier

with Gretchen Rubin podcast and who's a TV writer. So she's also kind of a creative writer. Like we talk about wanting to hold things back, hold ideas back. Like don't put all the good ideas in the happiness project. I have to, I shouldn't spend them out. I need to hold the back. It's like, no, no, no, especially with creativity. Spend them out, use them out. Lizith says put every good idea in episode one. And you just have to hope that episode two, you'll have new good ideas. Because this kind of holding back and hoarding, well, first of all, it's wasteful because it's like, oh, if you buy those candles and you never use them, it's just as if you threw them away. And they create clutter and disorder because they just hang around and they're never used. And they feel kind of stale because they

aren't being used. And, and, like, that's what you've got them for. That's why somebody gave them to you. They gave you this fancy candle so you could enjoy the smell or they gave you this gorgeous stationary so you would enjoy writing the note. And, you know, I find myself, you know, you get that like promotional stationary in the mail sometimes. I find myself writing notes on that. I'm like, why am I using this really bad card when I have lovely cards that somebody gave me for my birthday, but I saw, so anyway, you can see, I really, this is something I tell myself all the time, spend out, spend out, spend out. Oh, I've got all these books of stickers, you know, they're now, they're all these amazing sticker books for adults. I mean, I have way, yeah,

use them up. That's why I have sticker books. Put a sticker on something. Yeah, that's my, but I thought I was the only one who struggled with this. It turns out, and I'm sure you've seen, it's quite common. It's really common. And I feel like even, there's even like a deeper layer there of I'm not worthy sometimes of this special fancy stuff. Oh, 100%. Special perfumes or lotions or makeup. It's like I better save it for a special occasion because it feels too luxurious for me or something. Or I'm not like I had this beautiful card, but like my handwriting is bad and I don't know what to say.

And somehow, right, you feel like your future self will somehow be more worthy, as you say. But right now you kind of aren't deserving. but that's not how it works. It's not how it works. Yeah. And I feel like it helps build confidence to wear that fancy perfume on a daily basis. Because like, you're amazing. Spray yourself with that perfume.

Absolutely. And there's just kind of a stagnation. I think that sets in when things are just sitting there unused, even if we feel like we're sort of preserving them, there is an energy that comes from letting the nasty t-shirt go and using the new t-shirt. or using up the perfume because otherwise thing and then they also go bad your perfume will go bad I had a candle a beautiful like I love gel malone grapefruit and so my sister gave me one for Christmas and I was saving it saving it well by the time I got to it like three years later the oil

had completely separated out of it and so it was kind of the whole thing was wasted or this could happen with ingredients too like your spices go stale or like you're you know so a lot of times were worse off than we than even when we started. And so yeah, so I think there's all kinds of reasons just to spend out. Another thing that I loved about the happiness project so much was I read it in 2010 and this is when I just had started like a little organizing business on the side. I was running a daycare and your first chapter was, you know, it featured getting organized and decluttering. And so I felt so validated because I, for me, that was, was the one thing that I did in my life that had the biggest impact, not only on my happiness,

but it affected my finances and my self-worth and my productivity. Getting organized was like a catalyst for me. In the Happiness Project, you talk about everything from parenthood and relationships and money. Was there one through your happiness journey? I know you were already happy before you started the Happiness Project, but was there one thing? that you feel had a bigger impact on your overall happiness than others? Yeah. Well, and this is this is exactly what the research would predict, which is relationships. And when I look back on the changes that I made, it was really things to do with relationships

that I think had the biggest bang for the buck. So one of the things I talk about is I started a children's literature reading group because I'm an adult who loves children's literature and young adult literature. Well, when I started it, I thought I was the only person who had a teacher. taste for this kind of literature. Well, it turned out that there were so many people who wanted to join this group that the group had to split because we couldn't have a group, because we meet in each other's houses for dinner for our book discussions. It was too big. And so I found all these people and I've created all these relationships with people that I wouldn't have otherwise

had relationships and it's such an engine of happiness to me. And it's also a place in my life where people will thank me. They'll say, this group is such an engine of happiness for me, which again makes me very, very happy. But anything to do with relationships, like now, like with reunions, a lot of people are ambivalent about reunions. And I'm kind of like, if you're on the fence, go. Because what the research shows is anything that deepens or broadens our relationships is likely to make us happier.

And so that's a great thing to do to like stay in touch with old friends, maybe reconnect with. Sometimes, you know, people will reconnect with somebody who lives in their same city that they didn't know was there or that they didn't realize they could be friends with at the stage in their life. But anyway, I think if I had to pick one thing or being, you know, being more tenderhearted with my husband, being more patient with my children, anything related to relationships, I feel like is what gave me the biggest impact. Paying for your book. Yeah. This is what I love so much about your writing, just hearing you talk. All of your books are like a

personal story from you. Yes. Research is research in my case. Yeah, I write the book I need. to read for sure. But it makes it interesting. This is terrible to say, but a lot of self-help books, I'm just like Snoresville. I love coming along on your journey. I feel so connected to you. I feel inspired and motivated. But you also are like some sort of researching mastermind. Like you're bringing facts and science. And you have this incredible ability to see things in a different way, in a really analytical way. it's like you ask why about habits and you notice patterns. Have you always been a person who like takes apart the toaster to see how it works? You know, I didn't know about that aspect of myself before I started writing.

It's funny that you point that out because I do think that that has turned out to be sort of a major thing that I think that I bring, which is to sort of seeing categories. And some people don't like categories. They say, well, if you define me, you confine me. But I actually think it's really helpful to have sort of a shorthand. Because like in your work, it's like, are you an abundance lover or a simplicity lover? It's like, you know what that is, right? Like my daughter is an abundance lover and you walk into her bedroom and you're like, okay,

I myself could not live in a room like that, but that's what she went. So I think it is very helpful to have these categories. So that is something that through my writing I've like worked harder and harder on to try to, here's my latest one. Can I workshop it on you? Yes. Okay. So I'm working on a book about the empty nest, kind of what I'm calling the open door, because my younger daughter is going away to college. And it occurred to me as I was talking to people about their lives. And I will pose this question to you. As you think about your life, the life that you've led in your ongoing life, are you a book person or a tree person? So a book person is a person who thinks of their lives as a book of short stories or a book of chapters where you're in it, you're having a great experience. And then the time comes.

to turn the page and then you're ready for like the new chapter, the new story. Then there are tree people and tree people want to be rooted. They want to be in one place. So they're growing out from a center. So they want their rings to be wide because they're growing and they want their, you know, to be leafy and have lots of branches. But they want to grow in one place. And I thought of this because a friend of mine was like she lived in Washington, D.C., then she lived in New York City. Now she's living in Connecticut. She's thinking of moving to Portugal. She started as a lawyer. Then she worked for discovery. channel, then she started a clothing store, and now she volunteers at a place for children in foster care. And I'm like, I couldn't live like that. It's too many like short

stories. And I'm like, I want to be rooted. I'm a tree person. And neither is right or wrong or better or worse, but I think it's helpful to think, because you can imagine if you're having conflict, like with a sweetheart, it might be because a book person is ready for a new chapter, where as a tree person, you're like, what are you talking about? So, okay, would you say you're a book person or a tree person? Oh, man, I'm a book person, but like, it's a problem. Okay. Oh, why? It's a problem. I'm just always, like, wanting to start reinvent myself. And I, like, I just became a firefighter. Like, I have this incredible business and it's like going well. And I'm like, well, it kind of feels like it's ready to shut the chapter on that and start something new. And I've always been like this, just very much like,

want to, so not even like moving locations, but just completely starting a new chapter, a new short story of my life. And see, I feel like this is very clarifying because as a tree person, that does not sound enticing to me. But to you, it's like a thrill. A thrill. To just do something completely outside of the box and different. Yeah, every few years, I just want to reinvent myself 100%. Can you do know what I work with the four tendencies? Do you happen to be a rebel? I'm not a rebel, but we're going to talk the crap out of the four tendencies. Okay, because sometimes rebels, like, they don't like to be trapped into an identity.

So I could imagine that for a rebel would be really exciting to be like, you think that I'm an expert on clutter? Wait a minute. Am I going to show you? I'm a firefighter. But it's not necessarily part of rebel. I just, I'll get into the four tendencies. I can see that.

I can't wait to talk about the four tend to. But before we do, this has been like this nagging thing that I've wondered about you for a very long time. Yes. Because when I started my organizing journey, I was such an imposter syndrome, okay? Because I'd been a slob for so long. And then now I'm helping clients. It was kind of like this accidental thing. And I said, if it doesn't stay organized, I'll come back and organize it for free.

That was a terrible idea because I kept having to go back and organize. organized for free and it forced me to look at patterns. It forced me to ask myself. I'm fascinated. So what did you learn? That is a good. But see, that's a great practice because then you see the before and after. This is like why. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I think that's actually brilliant in terms of your own learning. It turned out brilliant. It was like this horrible thing. But I had to ask myself why. Like, why does this work for you and not for you? Why is this system? Like, what about you is different? And that's when I kind of discovered that there's four different kind of natural ways that people organize. And I call it the clutterbug style and all this thing.

But basically it comes down to, and you've already mentioned it, if you crave visual abundance or if you crave visual simplicity. And it really goes deeper. And like, people sometimes are energized by seeing their favorite beautiful things. Yes, exactly. And other people are energized with a very muted, simple space. So it's like, and also the visual people, it's out of sight, out of mind, whereas hidden or visual simplicity, they don't really forget about their things. But then the other side of that was some people are very detailed, very analytical. They like having a lot of categories.

They're craving like this detailed system. And then there's the other half of us that are like, no, bro. I need like two categories. It's like current and miscellaneous. Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. So I've given them like little bug names, but I basically... I think it's brilliant and I love it. And I actually, I've used your as a model because when I've tried to do other categories,

I'm like, it's so great when it's sort of like a fable where you tap into these like ancient associations that we have with like animals, plants, insects, whatever. It's hard. It's a lot harder than it looks to come up with those kind of like deeply satisfying summary categories. It was something that I just observed, but then anyways, it all came together and it's lovely, lovely. But listen, I've looked at pictures of your home. And to me, you have, well, you're a book lover. That screams abundance. You have beautiful colors. But also I've heard you say that you crave simplicity. So I'm confused. Now, the thing is, I always also say,

You can't put people into four categories unless you're Hogwarts or Gretchen Rubin. Right, right, right. Yes. You know, wonderful. It is a scale and you could be a little bit of this in this room. But I'm wondering, do you know, are you more of a visual abundance or visual simplicity person? You know, I have wondered about that myself because I do feel like I crave simplicity. And then I'm looking around and I'm like, actually, I do love shelves full of books or like,

I don't have this in my apartment, but is it called gallery style or cafe style where there's like, you know, all different frame things on a wall. I love that. So maybe I'd do like, to me, when I say simplicity, it's more like I want to get rid of the things that aren't useful. Like, I don't like collections of things that you just look at or I don't, it really bothers me if there's like a pot that we never use in the kitchen. Like I want to get rid of that.

Like I let, I don't, it's not the visual simplicity so much as like the people that want, you know, the bare brick wall and like one base on a shelf. It's not so much that. And I definitely have the thing. I like to have things like papers out so I can, because I have a lot of projects that I work on simultaneously, that I want to get rid of, if you haven't worn that coat in three years, I want to donate that coat. Like that's the kind of simplicity I want where I don't, and maybe that's why I want to spend out because the idea that something's languishing, then it feels like a weight on me.

And so for me, the simplicity is, do I need it? Do I use it? Do I love it? That's one of the tests that I talk about in my book, Outer Order, Inner Calm, and get rid of anything that doesn't pass that test, because that's where I start to feel like that's what is simplicity to me is that everything can pass that test. So I love this because basically what I'm hearing is you're definitely like a minimalist. Everything has to have a use. But you also like are energized by looking at beautiful things. Yes. So I think visually you're actually like a visual abundance person when it comes to color and things you find beautiful. I think that's right. I think that. Yeah. Okay. There are you. I had. Here's the other side because again, to me, I'm like, you've got to be a detailed person.

Look at what you do. You have to be analytical with your research. But also sometimes I hear that you're kind of just like a when it comes to your stuff laid back, just put it in a category. Do you know if you're more of a detailed or a non-detailed person? I think it depends on what area. I think it might be area to area. So let's put your brain. aside because I think your brain runs a mile a minute. How you manage your things, would you rather

take a few seconds to put something away in a proper home and find it fast or put it away fast, chuck it in a basket and you don't mind spending a few minutes to look through the bin to find it. So do you want to put it away fast? I'm a thousand percent. The first category. Absolutely positively. No. And I want every single thing to have a place that it goes. Everything has to have a place it belongs. nothing like, I'll just put it on this shelf, right? It's like, where are your triple A batteries? I know that. Where's your passport? I know that. Where are the extra stamps? I know that. Where's the hammer? I know that. Where is Eleanor's birth certificate? I can tell you right exactly where that is. This is so exciting. So you are a B and that's what I call it. So I love this.

Take a test. Yes. Yes. And that's what I got. Yay. Validation. You're a B. This is super exciting. Awesome. I want to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Cozy Earth. A few years ago, I switched to Cozy Earth bedding, and I'm just continually impressed by the quality, how soft they are, and that the sheets are temperature regulating. So they never feel hot, and I've washed them a million bazillion times. Cozy Earth has more than just sheets, though. They have a lot of different bedding. They have bath sheets and towels.

and they have pajamas too. All the bedding and bath products come with a 100 sleep night trial and a 10-year warranty. This summer, it's time to transform your bedroom into a cozy sanctuary with Cozy Earth. And just for my listeners, you're going to get 30% off at cozyEarth.com slash clutterbug. Use that code clutterbug to get 30% off sitewide. Let's lead into then the four tendencies. If we could talk about this. Another category.

Because I think of all the self, and I'm a self-hooked junkie, I mean, the happiness project is probably like, but the biggest impact on my life was the four tendencies. And I want to tell you why, because I started my own business and I spent years, you know, as your own boss, I had nobody to really set rules. nobody to be accountable to. I said I was going to do a whole lot of things, never really followed through. I had trouble with self-motivation. I read the four-tendencies. I got a sense of what you are. Okay. Yeah. Realize that I'm an obliger. Yes. I immediately hired a person to come to my home because when she showed up at my home, I had I had assistance that I paid virtually,

but I was like, no, I need someone that to show up in my home. So I have to be accountable to So I have to show up for them. I can't work while she's working. I'm going to feel guilty, my people-pleasing nature. And my business quadrupled in income. Wow. It was the catalyst. And I base all my decisions when I'm lacking motivation now of how can I tie this end to someone else?

So if I need to get something done, I'll say to my son, if mom gets this done by Friday, we'll go out for ice cream or all that. This has changed my life, Gretchen. I'm so happy to hear that. Excellent. Right. And this is what distresses me about when people don't know their obligers because other tendencies will say, well, it's a question of motivation. Or it's just like you just have to want it.

You have to get clear on your priorities or you need to make time for self-care. And it's like, it's not that those aren't good ideas to do, but they're not going to move the needle. They're not going to get you to act when you wouldn't otherwise act. So in a way, they're distracted. actions from what you found, which is if you give yourself that outer accountability as an obligeer, that is what will allow you to do something. And it's not, like you said, there's all kinds of ways to create utter accountability once you realize that is what you need. And that is

what obligeers need. It is. So the four tendencies, I know all my listeners know about it because I talk about it at nauseam, because I think everyone needs to know this. Not only do you need to really fully understand this because it now I you're not going to like this but I think it allows me to manipulate myself there I said it no 100% but also it allows me to manipulate other people to do things that I want them to do so um yeah no like the greatest tool in my toolbox that you came up with and it's genius or you could just say communicate with them effectively because you're speaking their language you're making the case in a way that is going to resonate with them even if it's not necessarily would resonate with you. Is that manipulation? Yes, it is. But we can also characterize

it in a nicer way. But yes, it's how do we get other people to do what we want them to do? And how do we get ourselves to do what we want ourselves to do? Both of these things are very challenging. Life changing, when you know this about yourself, you can really get yourself to do anything and you can help motivate other people to do things. So if you could just explain the four tendencies really quickly. I know everyone knows them, but honestly, I want to shout this every day. Okay. Oh, you're so nice. Yeah, so if anybody, I'm going to describe these. And listeners, you're going to know what you are, then the people around you probably. We could do the Game of Thrones characters. We could do the office. These are very easy to spot once you know what to look for.

But if you want to take a quiz that will give you an answer and to get a little report, go to Gretchenruven.com slash quiz and you can take a free, very short quiz. I think three and a half million people have taken the quiz now. And there's a ton of resources on my website, Gretchen man.com. I wrote a whole book, The Four Tennessees. But anyway, but in a nutshell, it's very, it's very, it's very easy to figure out what you are. So what this is looking at is a very narrow aspect of your nature, but a very significant aspect of your nature, which is how do you respond to expectations? Now, all of us face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations like, I want to start my new gig or I want to keep a New Year's resolution.

So what it looks at is whether you meet or resist an outer and or an inner expectation. And depending on whether you meet or resist an outer or inner expectation, that makes you an upholder like me, a questioner, an obliter like you, or a rebel. So here they are in brief. So upholders are people who readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important.

They're really good at execution. They're really good at self-motivation. They can seem a little bit cold because if they got to get something done for themselves, maybe that's going to, they're not going to have time for you. So their motto is all comply. Their motto is discipline is my freedom. So think of someone like Hermione Granger. Then there are questioners.

questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they're, they are resisting anything arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified. What they need is reasons. They tend to love data. They tend to love customization. They tend to love metrics. So they're making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their inner standard, they will do it no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So their motto is, I will comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers like you. An obliger is the biggest tendency for both men and women. This is the tendency that has the most people in it. Like you either are an obliger or you have many obligers in your life. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet

inner expectations. So these are people who say, why is it that I never let anyone, I never like break a promise to somebody else, but I can't keep my promises to myself. And so the answer, and you just said this, for obligers is even for an inner expectation, they need to create a system of outer accountability. If you want to read more, join a book group. You want to, you know, you want to create an online course, tell 10 people that they're going to get the course for free. And now you have to create the course because these 10 people are waiting for their free course. There's a lot of ways to create outer accountability once you realize that that is what you need. You know, it's not self-referial. not motivation, not putting yourself first. It's a question of outer accountability. Obligers are the

tendency that pair up the most easily with the other three tendencies. They're like the type O. They make great leaders, great team members, great friends, great neighbors because they're the people who go the extra mile, but they have trouble keeping their promises to themselves. So their motto is, you can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally is rebel. So rebels resist all expectations ater and in or alike. These are the people who want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. This is the smallest tendency. It's a conspicuous tendency, but it's not many people are in it. So they can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically,

they do not tell themselves what to do. They don't sign up for a 10 a.m. yoga class on Saturday because they think, I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that I'm supposed to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me and neither can I. And as you say, once you know your tendency, then you know what you need to get yourself to do something that you're struggling with or how you can work more effectively with someone else so that they can do what they want to do. And I use this in every, like, I'm like, I want to start working out. This has been the thing. And I'm like, what am I doing? I'm an obliger. I have. to have a person that's like, I'll meet you at the gym at this time, whether it's a personal

trainer or a friend or I'm not going. I will make every excuse, but I will not disappoint another person. Exactly. Exactly. Completely life-changing. So let's talk about my husband who's a rebel. This is insane. Oh, wait. Can I just, can I just pause and make a note here that among how the tendencies match up, that is the most consistent pattern. If someone is a rebel, almost and they're in a partnership, like a romantic partnership, like you and your husband, or like a founding team, like if you had a, like, you know, two people who often work together. If one person is a rebel, almost always the other person is an obliger. So the fact that you're an obligeer married to a rebel is a very consistent pattern. I did not know that. That's so fascinating. Yeah. He needs me, I think, because

that's right. Listen, he is insane. He's brilliant, but he won't, he can't even tell him, self to do something. It's almost like as soon as he writes a to-do list and he's like, well, now I know I want to do that, but now I'm not going to. It's ridiculous, questions. No. And there's so, it's funny because in the book, the four tendencies, rebel, it's the smallest tendency, but it has the longest chapter because they have to do things in a very different way because of the rebel, like the things that work for other tendencies often do not work for rebel system and like a to-do list, okay, right just in the name, you see why that is not going to work for a rebel. They have to frame it very differently. And so I learned how to manipulate my husband.

Okay. What works? A little bit. What works? He has to be the hero. He has to save the day. I can't say to him, hey, can you fix the roof? It's leaking. I'd have to say, oh my gosh, the roof is leaking. I don't know what to do. do you have any ideas? And then he'll want to solve the problem. Does this make sense? I know it does to you. But he, he, so anytime I want something done, I have to frame it as how can he solve the problem, be the hero in the situation.

And then he's always motivated to do it. And this has been, is to save my marriage, Gretchen. Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. because otherwise it feels like budding heads. I'm very much a list person. Yes. And but giving him a list is like then he even asking him, hey, can you take the garbage out?

Now he won't because I asked. Is that so bizarre? Right. But if I say, oh, it's really bugging me that the garbage is so overflowing and I just don't have time to deal with that. What's a solution here? Yeah. For some reason that.

Right. He's like, well, I'll take it out. because he's solving the problem being the hero of the situation. Okay, so two things. One is, that's amazing that you figure this out. And I think it's an example of how just a slight change in how we frame things to each other can make a huge, like, you're like, somebody might think of themselves, well, this is just one sentence instead of another sentence.

How can it actually make a difference? And what you see with the four tendencies is it makes a massive difference. The way that you frame something, the exact same underlying kind of idea is huge. But I will say, but I'm imagining listeners who are saying, look, why is this on you? Why are you the one that has to spend the mental energy to frame this so your husband can like be the hero, be the hero, be the hero? Isn't it time that he just grows up and realize that there are some responsibilities that adults have to do? And it's not, it's not part of your mental burden to try to constantly reframe things to his liking. What would you say to that person?

Honestly, like, I can't control him. And there's lots of things that he just does on his own. But when I'm trying to exert my will on him, does this make sense? Yes. I have to be. You put your finger on it. I have to be mindful of how I try to make him do something I want him to do. Yes.

Yes. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And it's also just very practical, which is you can. argue about the philosophy of adulthood all you want. Or you can like get stuff to basically. And you know, and one of the things, because I'm in a poller, which is the exact opposite of a rebel. I have learned so much from rebels and the power of rebels and the lesson of rebels for all of us, which is we are far more free than we think. And we feel bound by

expectations that are not actually holding us and confining us. And there is tremendous freedom in tapping into that rebel willingness to just be like, well, what do I want? What do I choose? What do I actually have to do? Because a lot of people are like, well, you have to do this. And like, like somebody said to me, well, you have to, you can't go to bed with dishes in the sink. You have to, you have to do them the night before. And I'm like, you don't have to. You can choose to, but you don't have to. And if you feel like you have to, then you're feeling trapped and constrained and controlled by,

and you're not. And so I think rebel, there's all this power in being a rebel. And it's just, it's true. The way that we communicate with each other just does have, it just makes a huge difference saying something like, oh my gosh,

the roof is leaking. Oh my God. I just feel like, you know, I feel like, I feel so uneasy because like something's in, like, there's this thing going wrong with our house. Like, what are we going to do?

And somebody's like, oh, I can fix that. Takes you just as much time as to say, okay, hey, you know, we. I need you to fix the roof. Yeah, right, right. You know, and it's like, if it can be like, if you want the roof fix, fix it, get, you deal with it. You know what I mean? It's like, okay. Call the roofer.

Yeah, exactly. Like, you can call the pressure. It almost feel like it, he's, when he feels pressure. No. He closes down. Right. Even pressure from him. Yeah.

from himself. And so he's like, ugh, I don't want to be told what to do. How do you handle this question? Like, let's say you're like, oh, hey, there's this super fun concert in a month on a Friday or like, oh, there's this great stand-up comic that we've been both wanting to go. Let's buy tickets. Does he resist having things on this calendar? Some rebels have that. Yeah, he does. That's so fascinating that you say that. Yeah, they don't like feeling trapped by the calendar. No, that's so fascinating. Even things that I know he wants to do. A hundred percent. Exactly. Yeah. But if you say like, hey, you don't have to come if you don't want to, that gives the out. And then he always actually ends up enjoying himself and coming. But he has to have like no pressure. But again, like sometimes people who are friends with rebels will say like, it really hurts my feelings because I try, I keep trying to make plans with this person. And either they refuse to make plans or they cancel. And I'm like, that's right. Because if it's a rebel, they don't like feeling trapped. So what you. You could do this, be like, hey, I'm going to be in your neighborhood on Friday.

Like, if you were free, that would, like, be super fun to hang out. But, like, if not, we'll do it another time. Or like, oh, I know you love this musician. I do, too. Like, I'm thinking about buying a ticket. Like, so if you felt like going, that would be super fun and we could go together. You know, and then it's just like, it's just an option for you to take or leave. But something like, you know, like, we need to commit to this right now or they're going to sell out.

So I need to know, are you in or are you in or are you out? They're like, you're trying to control me. Yeah. And I think it is subconscious. It isn't like they're like dicks or whatever. No, 100%. You can't tell me what to do. It's just the way that they go through the world.

And I want to say, because if people are thinking, wow, this sounds off putting, rebels can be incredibly generous, incredibly civically minded, incredibly high minded. It's all about their identity. So it sounds like your husband has the identity of like a really like a really like a. really helpful spouse like somebody who like a hero. It sounds like his identity is I am the hero that can come in and save the day. And the problem solver. I'm a problem solver. I can, show me a problem. I'll show you that I can figure it out. And so you're tapping into that identity. And that and, and and and and so they can't they can be enormously productive, reliable, high minded, you know, great leaders. But there is this added thing where it's what they choose. And here's

another thing and maybe you've encountered this is they're not doing it because they're supposed to. They're not doing it because they said they would. They're not doing it because because they have to. They're doing it out of love for you because you're like, I know you don't want to do this, but I have to go to this like work thing. And I would just feel so much more comfortable. You're really good in a crowd. Like if you were there, I would just feel so much better. And I know it's not what you want to do, but it would mean so much to me to have you there. Because what you're saying is, will you choose to do it out of love for me? I'm not telling you you have to. I'm just saying, will you choose to do it.

And a lot of times they'll be like, I will choose to do it out of love for you. But as an appolder, I want people to do it because, hey, you're my husband. If I'm asking you to come, there's a reason. Just say yes, man. You know, like, I don't feel like. Appolders are the worst. Can we just know. You're in a folder.

But I have a couple of friends who are upholders. And they're like, oh, I just see, I run every morning. You know, I should. it's good for my health and I eat kale and I'm just like, upholder. Of course you do. You upholder. It's irritating. But we're cold. We're judgmental. We're rigid. We're, you know, we're not flexible. We got our own problems. Oh, must be nice. But you know what? This is what the whole point is understanding yourself, like really getting a good grasp on this. I can now meet someone and identify their tendency right away. You can. Oh, man, I nail this, right? I have a new employee who's

definitely a questioner. And at first I'm like, she's always asking why about everything and I got to make an explanation for everything. It's so irritating. Well, now I realize, no, she just needs to have the deeper understanding of the meaning before. She's not just going to do something because I tell her even though I'm a boss. Yes. But see, if you don't know that, you could think this person isn't a team player. They're undermining. They're questioning my authority. They're, they're stalling because this is just a way to put off like the work that they, or decisions they need to make. But you're like, no, this is just. And there's tremendous strength.

And I'm married to a questioner. I work with a lot of questioners. There's tremendous strength in that. But you're right. If you don't know that they're a questioner, you can read it the wrong way. Right. And now I just reframe how I just always make sure to explain the why really quickly.

You don't have to go into big detail. You just have to give actual reasoning for the thought process. I'm asking this. I would love to have this by Friday because I'm going to be traveling on Saturday. So I'm going to have a lot of time to read your report. If you don't get a bit to me until Monday, you know, I might not have the time to review it for a couple weeks. And it's like, oh, okay. Well, then I see why you're asking me to like really push to get it to you by Friday. That's a reason.

Yeah, exactly. Or like, we have to really focus on this thumbnail and this title because here's the statistics that show that this is the most important thing. Exactly. And I'm not just saying this. Like, here's some facts to follow it up. It's not just arbitrary. It's not just your opinion. Right. It's funny with questioners. They get to the word arbitrary like in the first 10 minutes. I feel like that is their tell because they are just so bothered by anything that feels arbitrary to them. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. Well, you're a genius. Oh, thank you. And this has changed my life and allows me, I say manipulate people, but, you know, and in my business helping people organize, I use this twofold because not only am I helping them organize, so I want to help them identify their own style, because let's be

honest, getting your house under control takes self-motivation. It does. It takes self-discipline. It does. You have to be like, I'm going to do this and then follow through. And if you don't understand how to talk to yourself to get you to follow through with something, you're going to continually procrastinate. But you also live with other human beings who have stuff in the house. So how do we get them to also want to take part? So absolutely critical when you are. I'm really doing anything, but let's focus on organizing your home. You've got to know your tendency and you have to know the people in your home's tendency in order to see real progress. So I use this constantly. Because the questioners are always saying, well, why should I make my bed

if I just unmake it every night? I mean, I bet you've heard that a thousand times. Absolutely. Or why would I get rid of this? What if I need this again? Or what if like, so we have to get really fact-based with them. Like, you know, here's rules and here's why and here's the underlying. And rebels are the most difficult, though. Who are? Rebels. Yes, right. Yeah.

To declutter. But here's what, if I had a rebel client, I would say, here's the problem. You have way too much stuff. It will not fit. How can we solve this problem? What are some things that we can do so that you can live in the now? And then they will decide, well, I don't use this and I don't use this. We can't say, hey, I see that treadmill's real dusty, bro.

Right. I think the treadmill should go. Right. Right. We have to reframe it with them looking around and pinpointing things on their own to solve the problem. Well, I wonder if another thing that you could tap into is their love of freedom. Because if you sort of are like, you're trapped, your way down, the stuff is in your way.

It's like making your house dirty. So then like if you want to get it clean, it's going to take you longer. Because for rebels, the idea, like the idea of freedom and choice and possibility are like, oh, if you got rid of all this stuff, like then, oh, you. You know, if you got rid of all this gym equipment that you're not using, like, oh, like, I know you're really into yoga. Maybe you'd rather have this be an empty space for your yoga because it's like, oh, now I can have a different choice because it's always about like that freedom. This comes up a lot with like physical exercise. Like it works really well for to tell a rebel.

Like, if you're in good shape, you can travel around the world. You'll be 85 years old and you'll be going to Paris and you'll be running up the steps of the Louvre. But, you know, if you don't exercise, like you're going to get trapped. You're going to get weak. you're going to be dependent. You're not going to be able to move around. Like you'll be chained. You'll be constrained. You'll be limited. And that for them is very exciting. Like I want to be free. I want to, like, I want to, they just like, they just want to have that option. It's just, I'm like, all these things are coming together when hearing you speak about my husband. He takes freedom,

like even to finances. He doesn't want to have. debt. He doesn't want to have, he wants full, he doesn't want to have a boss. He wants full freedom in every single aspect of his life. Wow. Well, but see, and this is a great, that's a great example, freedom from debt is like, because sometimes people like, well, rebels will just buy anything they want. I'm like, they might, if that's what they tell themselves, but they also could be incredibly disciplined or like, or they're like, well, I want to be, uh, you know, if, if you've got a rebel who like wants to be like powerful and influential, well, they can do anything that's going to help them do that.

So they could be really great at a job where you're like, ooh, how does the rubble pull that off? But it's like, well, if that's what they want. But again, you can imagine if you're talking to somebody like, you have to, you have to save, you have to invest. Look at what the experts say. It's like that's not going to be compelling to them. But like imagine like you're free from dead.

And like the credit card companies, well, they love to see you not pay the minimum. They love to see you paying that sweet, sweet interest, keeping you trapped, is taking me. money out of your pocket month after month after month, but they can't fool you, they can't trick you, they can't trap you. That is much more compelling. That's exactly the mentality that my husband had very young. He saw them as someone taking him, trying to control him, having them under this thumb. He's like, I don't want to be working to pay their pockets. There you go, right? Am I working for you? Yeah. But see, but this is the thing. But for a questioner, it's like,

let's look at this interest. And if you, if you say, this money and you accrued it and you did a 10 year like, you know, like, and you invested it in an index fund and it was like a seven person. Then they'd be like, my father who's a questioner, that's how he gave up smoking. Is he like, well, if I save this money on cigarettes this month and then I invested it in the stock market, then I had an average return. Then over five years I'd make this one, 10 years I'd make this one. And so just basically whose frugality got him to quit smoking. And so because he's a questioner. So it was all about the numbers, the facts, the metrics. Like, but, to a rebel, it's like, just a slight reframing of that. The same facts become wildly more compelling.

Yeah. And you see how like having a rebel like that, having that discipline and that energy, like, that's great for you as a couple because you have somebody who's totally committed to financial freedom. And it's like, that is great in a spouse. And he probably can bring more energy to that than a lot of other tendencies because rebels have that rebel energy. Yeah. I mean, it's awful. It's great for me, but it's also like awful because I'm the type of person. I'm like, let's buy all the great things and spoil the children, you know, and he's just like, no, let's not. But I would probably be broke without his firm balance because to me, I don't have anyone else to hold me accountable financially. like I need him for my accountability when it comes to finances. So yeah, maybe it is like a beautiful

partnership. No, I think that the tendency is often like the way they pair up can be really beneficial. As in a poll, I'm too readily likely to carry through with something without saying why would I do that? Whereas my husband's a questioner. So I'll either actually ask him, or I'll say in my mind, well, if Jamie, if somebody asked Jamie to do this, what would Jamie say? And I'd be like, like, you know, you get this email and you're supposed to respond and everything. Jamie would just delete the email. I don't have to answer this. And I'm like, click. So sometimes you have, it helps to have other people in your life where you can tap into their strengths. Yeah. And I tend to be a bit too much of a people pleaser, right? And so having Joe be like, you don't have to please everyone all

the time. It's okay sometimes to put yourself. But that's why obligers are attracted to rebels, because obligers are like, oh, oh, I have this really needy family. I have to meet all their demands. and the rebel's like, no, you don't. Come with me. We're going to go to the Bahamas for Thanksgiving. You know, and you're like, that's amazing. You know, so that it is really powerful. And then the obligers keep the rebel more grounded in ways where they can kind of spin off in their own way.

And the obligers, like, but wait a minute. Like, actually, I think we do need to spend Thanksgiving with our family. You know, like, let's have a conversation. Yeah. It's life-changing. It really is. And I know, I mean, I talk about this all. the time. But if you haven't, if you're listening to this podcast or watching the video and you have

not read the four tendencies, you got to. I mean, get it, listen to an audiobook. I have it on an audiobook. I just sometimes re-listen to it because it is something I now know innately. Does this make sense? Sure. I can see it in people around me. And it helps me run my business better, run my household better, be a better parent because I see the tendencies in my children, be a better friend. I have a questioner, which is super annoying, and then two obligers. So, no rebels, thankfully, oh, thankfully. But it helps me help everyone. Does this make sense?

You know how I, yeah, how I help them meet their own expectations because I know how to talk to them. And we're having, they know what they are. And it's just, you got to know. You got, it's absolutely incredible. I know you hear this all the time, but how you came up. with this was brilliant. And do you have any new things up your sleeve? I love the tree book. Oh, yeah, the tree in the book. Well, as I said, like, I'm thinking, I have a little book coming out called Secrets of Adulthood, which is just like one line secrets of adulthood. Like,

outer order, for most people, outer order contributes to intercal. That's one of my secrets of adulthood that would resonate with you. Or, like, accept ourselves and expect more from ourselves. So that's a little book called Secrets of Adulthood. But then I'm really working on this open door, empty nest. And it's interesting because speaking of space, one of the things, so I'm thinking, kind of dividing it into all the categories of like all the changes that happen when your kids leave and like how different challenges are more or less difficult for different people. We're all kind of our own unique mix of what our challenges are. But one of them is the change in the, in just the structure of our time and the structure of our space. And one thing

people are like, I'm sad when I see the empty fridge or I'm excited about having, taking over the bedroom, or what do I do with all of their stuff that all of a sudden now I just want to get rid of? Or what do I do with their toys? Or, you know, it's like all of those questions about space and decisions that we make about space. And, you know, how do I create, you know, a space for new, new things to come in because I'm at a new stage of life, but then also how do I kind of keep what I want to keep from the past because of course we bring the past with us. So it's been interesting just that's just one small part of it. I can see how your tree book person analogy really goes to this.

Oh my gosh. You might be really on to something because I'm even thinking when I'm working with clients. Some of them are very open to the idea of like a brand new you, a brand new chapter. Oh, right. you know, have, you can turn this old bedroom into a craft room for yourself. Whereas other people are very resistant. Like, they don't want to have that change in their life. They like having that room.

Maybe the grandkids will come home and have a place to stay. They want to keep that solid foundation, that base, that trunk of the tree. Oh, Gretchen, you're onto something. But isn't that because it's even, and then here's like something like, I have all of my yearbooks from when I was. like from fourth grade to 12th grade and somebody's like why would you bother to keep them you must never look at them and i'm like it is unthinkable to me to get rid of those because maybe every 10 years it's every 10 years but this is one of this is this is this is my ring one of my rings is my

stack of yearbooks and i can't what would that mean to just like throw that overboard like so much which is so good like as someone who works with people to let go, this is important for me to know because I will reframe the questions and reframe the goals of what we're looking to based on that core personality of them, right? I'm going to push hard for change, new you, new adventure if it's someone who's a book person, but I'm going to be like, let's make a beautiful place for your grandkids to come to create new memories. Let's make a space that's open for them. So you have new memories to create with your past. Right. So I would reframe it differently based on this core part of their personality. Does this

make sense? That's so great. This is just like my new thing. So I'm so happy to hear how you're like spinning out and seeing how now some people are saying like in some ways I'm a book person, some ways I'm a tree person and probably there are people that are a mix like they're willing to, they always want to live in their same hometown and like neighborhood and friends, but then they're willing to to change jobs. But I'm wondering, like, as I explored this, if they really are not making the, like from you, that is a massive change. That's a true reinvention. Whereas they might be like, oh, I was, I used to write books and now I write a newsletter. I'm like, and that's kind of the same thing. To me, that's a tree thing. Yeah, I feel like that is a tree thing. You just got a new branch on your

exists. Yes. It's a new. Yes. It's a new. branch. Literally a new branch. It's literally a new branch on the same old tree. Whereas for me, as a book person, I'm not very sentimental to the past. I'm not keeping old baby clothes. I don't care about my new books. Not. See? Like, because I'm more interested in tomorrow. There you go. Yesterday. Whereas I see a lot of people in my life, my mom is a great example. She's definitely a tree person. we have to really reframe when it comes to decluttering about how are we going to keep growing branches on this beautiful memories that you have? How can we like, you know, go down this same path but make it more functional? Whereas like I'm just like bulldoze that tree.

I'm about to plant a new one. It's cool. I don't need this old tree. And you can see how like with couples like one person is like, oh, this is our chance to move to Florida and live in a two bedroom condo and like. and like reinvent ourselves and have a completely new fresh start. And somebody's like, what are you talking about? I've spent a lifetime building a social network. Every, every street is meaningful to me.

I have my perennials in my garden that I've been growing for the last 15 years. Yeah, there's real deep connection to like, not just physical, but like emotional. And yeah, past the past. No, I mean, because I live in New York City. My husband was like, well, maybe we'd move down, you know, to different neighborhood. And I'm like, buddy, I'm not moving more than 10 blocks from where we live right now. I'm just putting that out there right now. Like, it's not going to happen.

End of story. And he's like, okay, because I think he's such a three person too. I think he was just sort of floating that, which is good. But yeah, so it's a helpful thing. Oh, you know what? I think my office has gotten so hot that my camera is turning off. So I'm sorry about that. No, no problem.

That's totally okay. I'm going to stop taking up all your time. I'm really invested in your new idea, though. Oh, I'm so excited. Thank you. That's a great to hear. Because I really think, well, I'm being, I'm being a little biased, but I would think it will help me in my business to let, help people let go and let go of the clutter and get organized

if they have a deeper understanding of, yeah. Themselves. Of themselves. Of themselves. Book or tree person. Okay. I can't wait. Gretchen Rubin, new book coming out sometime in the future.

Yes. another life-changing observation. I hope so. And pattern. I'm so, so, so impressed. And I'm going to put all the links to all your books and your incredible podcast that is literally the only podcast I listened to. I just have to say, thank you. Like I honestly just think you're an absolute genius and I love everything you do. But please let my listeners know how they can learn more about you and follow you if they don't already. And do you have a favorite of your books there? I said it. You probably, I mean, they're like children, but do you have a favorite? Well, I mean, in the clutter clearing space, Outer Order Intercom is like a super fun.

It's like I wrote it for fun. It's just like full of a million ideas about how to create order and beauty. So that's fun. The Happiness Project, I loved writing that book. And that was a book so sort of established me in happiness. So that's good. My sister, who's the co-host of Happier with Gretchen Rubin, she says her favorite of my books is happier at home. So throw that out there.

The Four Tenancies, I think, is my book. biggest kind of original idea. So I love it because that Life in Five Senses was such a joyful book to write. It was so energizing. And of course, your most recent book is always maybe a favorite in a way. Better than before, my book about how to make or break habits. I think about that all the time. That's how I got the idea for the four tendencies is because I was trying to understand how people make or break habits. So I like all of them. I like all of them. I like all my books. I like all of I like all your books, too. I wrote a biography of Winston Churchill. So I am on social media in all the places at Gretchen Rubin. So far and I love to engage with with everybody on social media. My podcast is happier with Gretchen

Rubin, which we were just talking about. I've got a website that's got so many like resources and quizzes if you just go to Gretchenrubin.com. There's tons of stuff there. I have a newsletter, which I love. It's called the Five Things newsletter. So once a week, it's five things making me happy. And then once a month, it's like five things to try, which is like hacks and tried this at home ideas. And then five things I published. That's free, like a more than a million people get that. And you can sign up for that at Gretchenrubin.com. And, and I, you know, I love to hear from people. I get so many, I feel like the world is my research assistant. Like here, I've taken all these notes during our conversation. You've given me

so many examples and insights and questions to ask myself. So I love to engage with people with observations or resources that they suggest or questions. And I love that about your podcast too. You're always bringing in like readers comments and questions into your podcast. Oh yeah, because people have such amazing ideas. It's good. So good. It's been so much fun talking to you. I feel like we could talk all day. We're interested in all the same things. I just, yeah, you're like one of my heroes and I'm so grateful that you're on the Clutterbug podcast. It has been an absolute honor to meet you and chat with you. You are, I mean, better than I expected. Oh, well, this was so much fun.

Thank you. Thank you. And thank you to everyone listening. I'll see you guys next time.