Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast - Why Changing Your Space Changes Who You Are (Not Just How It Looks) | Clutterbug Episode #342

Episode Date: September 7, 2026

Hey Clutterbugs! Want to know why decluttering and organizing your home can change your entire life — not just your space? In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Angela Duckworth, bestselling author of Grit and her brand new book Situated, to talk about the science behind why changing your environment is more powerful than "just trying harder." Angela breaks down the Three Boxes model, and honestly, it explained my entire life back to me. We get into why willpower is overrated, why "just try harder" culture is kind of a trap, and why editing your space (not forcing more discipline) is the real secret to lasting change. We also get real with topics like . . . ✨ My own decluttering "rock bottom" and how changing my environment changed who I was, not just how my house looked ✨ Why I think weight loss surgery is a situational fix, not a shortcut — and why shame around GLP-1s and other "easier" paths needs to go ✨ Getting diagnosed with ADHD at 40 and how surrounding myself with the right people (situational change!) helped me finally build the life and career I wanted ✨ Why grit isn't about intensity — it's about consistency, and why my whole "do it badly on purpose" philosophy might actually be a form of grit after all If you've ever felt like you're failing no matter how hard you try, this episode might just reframe everything. Sometimes the answer isn't more effort — it's a better situation. To purchase Angela's new book, please visit https://www.angeladuckworth.com/situated Want to get organized? Learn 6-Step The Clutterbug Method: https://clutterbug.thinkific.com/courses/Clutterbug-Method You can find more Clutterbug content here: Main YouTube Channel: @Clutterbug Website: http://www.clutterbug.me TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clutterbug_me Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clutterbug_me/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Clutterbug.Me/ #clutterbug #podcast #AngelaDuckworth #grit #situated #newyorktimesbestseller #melrobbinspodcast #selfhelp #homeimprovement #lifehacks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today's podcast is insane. And here's why. When my producer said that she had this interview lined up with this person, I threw up in my mouth a little bit. I don't know what else to say because I am such a huge fan. And to have Angela Duckworth on today's podcast is something that I never thought would happen. And if you have never heard of her, let me just tell you, not only is she like a world-renowned psychologist. She's the author of one of the greatest self-help books ever written called Grit. That book, unfreaking believable, but she's also like a genius. She literally won an award for being a genius. And yet, she never felt like that. She's dedicated her life to researching what makes people successful. And it started with the book Grit, and she has still

kept researching. She is leaving no stone unturned. She's evaluating everything and everyone to come up with real steps for changing lives. And she has found the missing piece in her new book called Situated. And when I first read it, I was like, this is crazy and yet also the most obvious thing I've ever, like we know this and yet none of us are thinking about our lives in. in this way. And so today we are talking with the incredible Angela Duckworth. I didn't know what to call her Dr. Duckworth. Angela, Angie, can we be best friends? I'm nervous, you guys. I'm going to be honest. I'm nervous. But this podcast buckle up because it will absolutely change your life. Before you meet Angela, I want you just like always to take action, except for this podcast, I do not

want you to do anything that requires brain power. So no organizing, no decluttering. I don't want you to think. I want you to go to zombie land. This is what I call it. One of the best things I ever did was listening to Self-Help podcast while I was cleaning or folding laundry. Because not only was I getting things done, but my brain was being stimulated. I was learning. I was leveling up my life just by listening. And that's what I want you to do today. So mindlessly dust or fold, put away laundry, do the dishes, but really listen to Angela's words because this interview is crazy pants. Okay, the ideas that she is going to talk about absolutely will have a profound impact. So grab a rag, grab some spray, roll up your sleeves, clean something, mop the floors.

I don't care what you do. Don't vacuum, though, because I really want you to hear every single word. Listen while moving and soak it in. And without further ado, let's meet the incredible Angela Duckworth. Hello, Angela. Welcome to the Clutterbug podcast. Cass, I'm so excited to have this conversation. I am, I'm slightly fan-girling a little tiny bit. When I found out that you were coming on, I was like, are you? and I had like a slight panic attack because you're amazing and influential and a genius. So thank you. Thank you. I don't know if I am any of those things, but I, but I am excited. I'm really excited to talk about. I think things that we both care about and actually that we've both thought about for a long time. Yeah, I read your book situated. I'm going to tell you, I started it. And I was like,

there's no way that this can compete with grit. And there was a moment where I had this kind of aha moment. And I literally like stopped reading and sat back and thought, man, why did I not ever think of this in this situation? So so my listeners know what I'm going to talk about because I definitely want to dive into this. So smart. Can you give us a breakdown of kind of the concept you're talking about in your new book? Well, Cass, you mentioned grit. I spent the first half of my career as a psychologist studying the importance of individual efforts. to achieving your potential. But I spent the second half of my career trying to understand the situations, the successful situations where all that individual effort pays off. So everything and

everyone around the individual. And I think in a way, it's not, you know, it's not a contradiction, I will say, of great, but it is a completion. Because if you only think about what's inside and you ignore what's outside, then I think you misjudge yourself and honestly, I think you can misjudge others. For me, it was like, I felt so obvious, especially because this is something I've been talking about for a long time, how your environment affects your entire life. And yet, I didn't put the pieces together. I don't know how else to describe it. So I've talked a lot about, yeah, we have to change our thoughts, you know, and we have to change the response. And we have to to change the environment, but you put it together in like a, in a way that really left my jaw on

the floor. So if you, I would love it if you kind of explained the three boxes because I thought this was the part that I immediately stopped. I had this aha moment. And then I turned to my husband who was having a nap. I woke him up to tell him about this because I'm like, listen. This is like going to change your life. Okay. So Cass, I, I'm being. given permission now, right, an invitation to be professor, Professor Angela. I would love to tell you about the three boxes model just this morning and only moments before this conversation. I was on the phone with James Gross. He's a Stanford professor, as you know, who studies emotion. And he really introduced me to this connection between the objective situation that we're in,

physically, socially, the thoughts that go through our minds and then how we behave. And what I want to do connect those three things. And I'll go in a very simple order. It's like a chain reaction, right? So if you were drawing this on a piece of paper, indeed, you could use three boxes and you connect them with two arrows. So box one is your objective situation. You know, it's everything from like, is there a water bottle nearby? Here's mine. Is there a phone nearby? I very intentionally don't have that. Here, I have a notebook. I have a pen. You know, really your physical situation matters most when. those objects are within about three feet of you because that's what's within clear view and within reach. Okay, but not just that. There's also the social situation. So I'm with you, Cass,

on a podcast. If you came to dinner and watched me with my two young adult daughters, they're in their 20s, and my husband, Jason, you would say, oh, I've interacted with Professor Angela, but Angela at home is actually very different. You know, she's honestly, like quieter. She doesn't talk as much as maybe her daughters do. Not that she's shy, per se, but it is a different Angela. Like that's a different me. So your social situation will also shape how you show up and how you behave and how you think. So that first box is your situation. The second box are the thoughts that run through your head. And I'm glad you brought that up because Cass, I think there are a thousand excellent books on how to change your thoughts.

know how to become an optimist, how to look for the positive, how to be self-affirming and self-compassionate. But I think what the great insight of work by James and me, and I'll mostly attribute that to James, is that the situation shapes those thoughts. So when do you have positive, optimistic thoughts? Well, in certain physical spaces and around certain people more than others. And the reason those books exist is because box two thoughts do shape box three behavior. So, yes, we should try to change our thoughts. But the very best way to change your thoughts is to put yourself physically in places and socially with people who encourage the thoughts that you want to have that will in turn

encourage or motivate the behavior that you want to have. Yeah. This, I think, goes a little bit against traditional self-help because we are reading books and hearing this message of, absolutely, you can control your life by controlling your thoughts. And there's a lot of messages about you just need willpower and try harder. But nobody really said, what if you just change your situation or alter your situation? And it seems so obvious. It's so simple, right?

it's so obvious, but let me like share on a personal level, like how you can actually write about this all day, think about it all night and still miss the point. And again, I agree with you, Cass. It's so obvious. And that's something I think we could talk about like, how could we be missing something that's kind of staring us in the face. So just on a personal note, I, you know, grew up as, as you know, with very achievement oriented parents. I mean, really my dad. And I think he was. in some ways the inspiration for all of that work on grit and effort. He wanted his children to be very successful, capital V, capital S successful, very successful. And I tried harder in everything I did. You know, I wanted to be a cheerleader and not a nerd. And I wasn't a very gifted gymnast or, you know, in any of the other requisite skills of a cheerleader. But you know what? I just tried harder. I just practiced longer and more consistently than like any girl in my high school. I wanted to be in the chorus. I wanted a solo. I can't carry a tune. That's okay. I've got a tape recorder. I'm going to sing the rose a thousand times because I'm going to get that one stanza to sound great. Okay, try harder. I, you know, calculus is really hard for me. That's all right. Maybe I'm not a gifted mathematician. I'll just try harder. And so this gospel of, you know, just try harder, which I live by, I mean, honestly, like, it worked great. And that really is, you know, effort and the individual. And, and here's the late paradigm shift that I made. And I have to say it was, it was a few years after I had understood this as a psychologist and as a researcher. But in terms of applying it to my own life, just try harder, work so well. I never really thought about changing my situation. And it felt to me, I think, as it does to a lot of achievement-oriented people, that when you do change your situation to make a hard thing easier, it's cheating, right? So what would it be like to be in a situation where I didn't have to only use willpower,

but just like naturally, you know, I would sit down, not procrastinate, you know, do my work, concentrate. You know, here's one research study that I think kind of like proves the point. There are young people who now, I think, increasingly have great ambivalence towards their phones and their laptops even, right? And they do say that they spend too much time on them. And when you ask them like, well, like, you know, what do you think ought to? be done. Well, they say, oh, you should just install an app blocker. You should like put your phone

in another room. Like they give you situational solutions. Then you ask them, great, what do you do? This is our own data, hundreds of teenagers, same pattern with adults. They're like, what do I do? Oh, I use willpower. I just try not to be on my phone. I just try not to stay up too late, scrolling. I just try to put it down. I think this idea that if you use effort and it feels bad, it's somehow better. It's somehow more morally upstanding, runs very deep in American culture. And because I was a product of a just try harder household, and frankly, because just try harder can get you pretty far, I think it was late in my life, probably, you know, all the way into my mid-40s where I was like, all right, well, that's the secret to success. And now in my maturity, I'm trying to create situations in which, you know, these ambitions are easier to achieve. I felt so validated reading your book because you, I guess you gave like merit to something that I had kind of been shouting from the rooftops, specifically when it comes to your home.

I've always been bad at everything. Okay. Like you, no, like, no, but like no, but like I suck at everything in life. like I've always been terrible, failing at every single thing my entire life. And when I became a mom, the thing that was most apparent that I was failing at, obviously finances, my weight, all of it was bad. But my house was like something out of hoarders. And I tried every day, like, will, I'm going to do it. I'm going to keep it tidy. Today I'm going to try harder to like be clean. And I would. And then it would get messy again. And I felt like I was on this. And sometimes I was

just like, I can't. I give up and it was horrible. And then I just got angry and I rage throughout like 80% of my stuff. I did. I took a shortcut and I decluttered massively. I changed my environment so I no longer had to force myself to pick stuff up because there was nothing to pick up because I no longer had to. Sure, I had to do dishes. But I even had half as many dishes. And the amazing thing is it changed every single aspect of my life in some small way. And so while I was reading situated, I sat back and I was like, this is the scientific proof of why I had this chain reaction. I didn't have to move. I changed my environment in a drastic way. I changed my situation. And then immediately my life is easier. I no longer had to have willpower to clean and tidy. But even more than that,

Angela, listen to my face. I woke up and I was different. I was confident. Like hello, right? You're like, oh, this is not a trivial life hack. This is personal transformation, right? Like, it might seem just like a little tip, you know, like, oh, you know, you might declutter. Like, you know, like you'll be 5% more efficient. That's not what this is about. This is really about changing yourself by changing your physical environment. And I love that story. I wonder actually, candidly, I wonder what you think of like Marie Kondo and, you know, and her book is that's something that I read. As I say, I think my colleagues were like, why are you reading the life-changing magic of tidying up? And I was like, I think it's pretty good psychology because I agree with you,

Cass, so, so so passionately do I agree with you that your physical environment shapes your internal thoughts and that shapes your behavior and your behavior shapes your life. Exactly. Yeah. So I found some aspects of Marie Kondo's book to be like a little intense. It required effort. I am lazy. It required taking it in big chunks. I'm more of like a 15 minutes here and there type of person. I'm less of a gung-ho. I did not have parents that encouraged me to work hard. So I grew up. my mindset is very much like where can I where's the easy way out but it did inspire me and it inspired millions of people I think to look at their environment and say is this affecting me more than I

realize and the answer is yes because you talked earlier about like your water bottles right there and your notebook and your phone is nowhere and that is all so true and also if you wake up every day and everywhere you look, you are reminded that you are a slob or a failure or you're not trying hard enough. It is soul crushing. It does something to your self-esteem. It's very hard to find motivation or even change your thoughts because our environment, just like you said with the three boxes in the arrow, our situation is step one. And I was like a brilliant genius mapped this in a way that I was not able to articulate or even piece together. And I'm like really geeked about your book.

Okay. So I have a question for you, but I'm going to preface it with some more science because I know, I know how validating that can be. And, you know, as an offhand commentary, I will say there is anything macho and bro about like, you got to do it the hard way, right? Like you have to force yourself, right? Rather this like more elegant strategic solution, which is like, why do I just put myself? somewhere where this all comes easier. And as a girl and a mom and a woman, I'm like,

I think it's time for women to say, you know, how you can be successful. And maybe it's not a path of like greatest suffering and stoic, you know, determination all on your own. So that's my, that's my Angela commentary on the science that I'm about to deliver. And then I do have a question for you, which is, you know, when you look at the science of attention, and I think attention is something that we're increasingly talking about because we are spending hours and hours a day, you know, on screens and then at the end of the day, very often feeling like, that's not how I wanted to spend my day. Tomorrow I won't do that. Or, you know, I want to go to bed earlier and I want to be physically healthy and I want to, you know, get my run or my visit to the gym in and then

you go to bed and you're like, okay, that didn't happen. And then we vow to do it again and again. And I do think we feel like in a way our tension is pulling us toward distractions and diversions that in the moment might feel good, but don't add up to a life. And so one thing I want to tell you as a scientist who studies attention and behavior is that when you are in that Box One situation, you think you're in control. You're like, I pay attention to what I want to pay attention to. Like, why am I looking at this, you know, video of Tom Cruise? It's like, because I chose to. You are very much looking at that video of Tom Cruise because it came up in your feed and it was in the palm of your hand. So one of the things that we need to understand about human nature is that

attention is less top down than you think. We are more reactive than we are reflective. I'll take the extreme case. When you look at drug addicts and alcoholics, you might think, oh, they have a problem with their motivation. They have a problem with how they're reacting to their situation. If you ask scientists who specialize in drug abuse, its intervention, including alcohol, they will say, The number one recommendation is to change your situation so that the trigger cues are not there. Even our deepest cravings are situational. So really, this is a profound statement about who we are. And if you want to shape your behavior, then you don't rely just on like, well, I'm going to not intend to look at Tom Cruise.

I'm going to work on the project that is more meaningful to me. Like, okay, you know what? You have to move your phone away from you. because if it is in the palm of your hand and if the video Tom Cruise comes up, you're going to watch it. So that's my science to, I think, back up your intuition about how your attention really is driven in a kind of bottom-up way by these seemingly trivial, you know, influences in your situation. And I have a question for you because when I think about clutterbug and I think about decluttering, which we talked a little bit about, so your attention isn't just like scattered, frankly. like, you know, your eyes alighting on every possible object and then what you should be doing with those objects. I wondered if you do something else that high achievers that I've studied do, which is now that they have decluttered their space,

they actually decorate their space with physical, tangible reminders of, and not too many, because you don't want it to be cluttered, but I wondered whether you, like some of the people that I study, you know, even write down like a quote that you love on a post-it note and stick it somewhere, that you will see every day. What, what, if anything, do you do to add to your space to make your thoughts the way you want and to make those thoughts motivate the behavior you want? Yeah, that's so good. You're exactly right. So I created a vision board that is right here and I'm gesturing to it. And so it's not just a screensaver. It's like it's right there. And then I also do this thing like in my kitchen because I noticed every morning, I was like, how can I get the thing? So my to-do list and my notebook is like right there beside the coffee. And that's it. So the only thing I see when I

come in my kitchen are my goals for the day. And I only pick three things. And again, so it's it's giving me that visual cue, but there's nothing else queuing me around. And I do think that this is is motivating in a way that even I didn't realize. It's motivating isn't the right word. It's kind of like subconsciously pushing me and I'm stopping the distractions. I think motivating makes it feel like you're being pushed, right? But you're being gently drawn. Gently drawn.

Right? And, you know, you are the architect of that. Again, I think that some people would say and research that myself and other scientists have done that they don't want these crutches. They're like, I would just like to remember the three things I'm trying to do. Or, you know, I'd love to talk more about your vision board. My husband has, like, created this vision board. And so I want to know more about yours.

But I do think that, you know, thinking about this as a support and not a crutch, right? And if it gives people license, here's an example. Michael Phelps, the most decorated swimmer and athlete of all time. He's won far more Olympic medals by a stretch than any other athlete in any sport. when he was 11 years old, he did what you did, which is he wrote down his goals on a piece of paper, not a thousand goals. Actually, there's something lovely about the number three. I think I remember looking at this, you know, photo of his goal sheet, and I think there were very specific goals that he was trying to attain in different, I'm not a swimmer, but like in different, like the freestyle, et cetera. And he pasted it next to his bed.

So it was the last thing he saw before he went to sleep. and the first thing he saw in the morning. I have done research with thousands of teenagers in this country who are all studying for the SAT. And one of the best strategies, the most reliable predictors of studying more and getting higher SAT scores is I wrote down my goals in a concrete schedule and posted it somewhere that I could see.

So I think science is on your side. Like, well, if Michael Phelps and like pretty much any American teenager needs that physical reminder, maybe we shouldn't blame ourselves for having such a terrible memory or like not being an ambitious focused person. Like just do what champions do, which is use your environment to your advantage. So I love that you've done that. And I totally want to ask you about vision boards. So first let me just pause there and say like I get kind of excited about, you know, Michael Phelps and goal sheets. But but I have posted notes that, you know, I've taped to the wall and, you know, they remind me

the things that I would be able to tell you, Cass, but, but, but, just seeing them, I'm like, yeah, that's right, do less better. Absolutely, right? Like, hunt the good. Right. And then I walk out the door and I'm like, you know, it's on my mind. Yeah. I love it, love it so much. Okay, before we talk about vision boards or anything else, can I just say this, there was something else in your book that at first I kind of thought, well, that's a stretch, Angela. And then I stopped and thought and I was like, wait a minute, I did this exact same thing. So changing your situation, I think changing your physical environment is obvious. But you mentioned something in a chapter about someone who was

struggling with weight loss and decided to take the GL1P inhibitor. I hope I'm saying that right. And then you likened that to changing the situation. And I was like, that's a stretch. But then... That's too far, Angela. That's... But here's the reality. I struggled with morbid obesity for the majority of my adult life. Even as a child, I was overweight. I was 250 pounds for years and years. And I had weight loss surgery because the thing. So you had a gastric bypass? I did, like a ruin why years ago. And because I was like, I, willpower was not enough. I even, I was like, changers don't have the cookies in the house, which yes is changing the situation.

That doesn't work for some people, by the way. It works for some and it doesn't work for others. I needed to go a step further where I was unable to overeat. I just couldn't anymore. I just physically, like it was absolutely. What happened next? You were like, yeah, like I lost. I lost 125 pounds in six months. And I gained back a little bit, but I have been holding at 100 pounds less.

It's almost been eight years. I don't even think about food. I don't care. I eat what I want. I have skittles and cookies and it doesn't matter. It's like you're a different person, right? It's like I'm a different person. Probably the person you always wanted to be when you were overweight, right?

Because you look around and you're like, I want to be, I want to be that girl who's like not obsessing about food all the time. All I did was think about food. All I thought about was exercise and I have to and what am I going to eat next and it should be this and I shouldn't eat that and this. I thought about food every second. It was always in the back of my mind. And it's just gone.

It's just over. How do you feel about GLP ones? And then, yes, I will tell you why it is that I decided to come right out and say that I think they are a situational fix. But what's your opinion, your perspective, your philosophy on GLP ones? I think they're amazing. And I think they are, I think as somebody morbidly obese fighting every day to try to change my thoughts and behavior, this is a miracle. for people. It's, it's, I don't want to say, and it's like this touchy thing is like, don't recommend it.

I know. And I, you know, I would do it if I could go. It's wrong. I think, look, and, and I don't think either of us are saying that any medication is like, oh, it's unequivocally this or that. But I do want to say this. I completely agree with you, Cass. And when I wrote those sentences, and I will tell you more about this physician who started

taking GLP-1s, because I think his story really underscores, like, how we think about weight and willpower and shame in our culture and how we can rethink that. I just want to say when I wrote that passage, I got some feedback from early readers like, well, you know, maybe that's a bridge too far, right? Like, how is taking GLP-1s changing your situation? I'm like, getting a prescription to GLP-1s is a huge change in your situation. Like, what else is it, right? Because you're not just like working on those food thoughts.

You're not like, I have to stop thinking about food. Like the food noise is too much. I'm going to not think. And it's also not willpower. Like, well, I've got the food thoughts, but I'm just going to force myself. It's exactly a box one situational shift. Let me elaborate on this story of Aaron Carroll. He was a very and always has been gritty high achiever, you know, all the best schools, all the top grades.

And also always struggling with his weight. His father was also morbidly obese. he certainly has, I think, a genetic disposition toward an appetite and also thoughts, you know, about food that, you know, some people, God bless them, like, don't have. And so he would try to diet and then, you know, he exercised kind of like fiercely, right? But as you know, you can like, you can eat a bagel and like, you know, like three hours of exercise just go down the drain. So what he eventually did, and as a physician, he had long been recommending to his patients. was to take a prescription of GLP1s.

And he also, by the way, did the same for antidepressants, right? And on both of those, like, I have to take medication to regulate my emotion. I have to take medication to regulate my thinking about food and my appetite. Like they were actually for him, you know, very difficult things to do because as a strong, gritty person, he felt like he was cheating, that somehow there was some shame in terms. taking this quote unquote easier way out. But what I really respect and admire is that he said, I'm going to write an op-ed in the near times about how a physician like me who should really know better, like finally mustered what can only be considered carriage to say, I need this situation

to be happy and to be healthy. And he talks about in the op-ed his own father. And he said, you know, to my father's dying day, I think I actually secretly blamed him for being fat. And only now do I have the wisdom to recognize it. Like, he needed a better situation. And Cass, the last thing I'll say about weight is that we are not in a world situation, a macro situation that is in our favor. If you ask evolutionary biologists whether obesity is a problem of individual willpower, they will say, are you kidding? We did not evolve to have sugar, fat, salt,

colorings that didn't even exist, you know, flavors that were like more intense than like anything that our forebears had to confront. Like, are you kidding? It's not willpower. It's just a shitty situation. And if you need to fix your shitty situation, by taking GLP ones, like, God bless you. I'm, yes.

I am so yes. When I first read that, I thought this might be a, a stretch. And then I realized it is in fact exactly what your entire book is talking about. It is the situation. Your environment shapes your behavior, but there is agency there. Like, don't feel like ashamed or powerless. Like, think, you know what? I have situational agency. Like, one of the smartest, wisest things I can do is just change the situation. But it seems so, like, it's such as, it seems like so out there that we don't really talk about. Even I didn't think of having weight less surgery as changing my situation,

but when I stopped and thought about it, I'm like, this is exactly what I did. I didn't have to change my thoughts. Everyone tried to talk me out of it. Everybody tried. Everybody. And afterwards, I got so much shame and hate about I should have done it the right way. I cheated. It didn't. It didn't count. But, yeah. But I was so much happier. And it isn't even about, my health improved dramatically. I was no longer pre-diabetic. I had so many issues that just basically evaporated overnight.

You know, the shame and blame thing, isn't that so interesting? Interesting. Like, isn't that, and do you feel like that is like a uniquely American thing? Or, I mean, do you have any, like, where do you think this comes from, this idea that, like, you should do the old-fashioned way? Like, you should do it the hard way. I don't know. I think the entire world kind of rewards hard work and grit, as you would say, right?

And they're like putting your nose down and just doing it right. Doing it and suffering. And we have this, this like black and white of the right and wrong way to do things. And perceived shortcuts are definitely seen as something that are lazy and negative. I was telling you about Michael Phelps. And, you know, for my first book, like, that's all I did is I would study people like Katie Ledecki, who's actually in grit, and people like Michael Phelps. And by the way, I don't take a word back from that first book. I know that like a lot of TED talks are like, first I thought this and now I think that. But like, oh, I believe in the gospel of grit. Like, you don't become Michael Phelps or a healthy, happy person without effort. But here's what I think you really learn when you understand not just the individual, but also his. backstory, all the, all the people in places that surrounded him. So, you know, it's undeniable that Michael Phelps had grit. He swam 365 days a year. He had a 20-year career. He didn't skip his

birthday. He didn't skip Christmas. Like, he didn't skip the days that he wasn't feeling great. Like, all right. So like unequivocally, Michael Phelps has grit. But when you really delve into his story, you understand that success is hyphenate. It's not Michael Phelps. It's Michael Phelps and Bob Bowman. It's Michael Phelps and Debbie Phelps. It's Michael Phelps and every swimmer who ever swam with him. So I want to tell you about Bob Bowman because actually I spent more time studying Bob Bowman than I did studying Michael Phelps for situated. I mean, Michael was born about 10 minutes away from one of the best youth swimming programs in the country, if not the world. And there was a coach there, this like tough love coach named Bob Bowman. Well, Bob Bowman, it turns out, is one of the

greatest swim coaches in history. He is Michael's lifelong coach. Michael's really never been coached by anybody else as a head coach. And when you ask Michael, like, well, could you have 128 gold medals, you know, broken the world record for breaking world records in athletic? Like, well, what would have happened? What's the road not traveled for Michael Phelps? And he's unequivocal. He says, without Bob, my story is different, 100% different. So yeah, Michael Phelps is gritty, but it's Michael and Bob. I also need to tell you about Debbie. I got obsessed with Michael Phelps's mother as I was doing this research because again, you know, behind every Olympic athlete, you know, there's a coach, there's a family structure, they're best friends, they're supporters.

Debbie Phelps was, you know, for most of Michael's childhood, a single mom and a public school teacher in Baltimore, which is, you know, as I mentioned, like where he grew up, she didn't have a lot of money. She did, though, have unshakable faith in her kids. And she had this expression, like have minivan will travel. So before, you know, Michael was, you know, training with Bob, actually, they lived in a different part of Baltimore. And Michael's older sisters, Hillary and Whitney, wanted to swim and they knew that this better training center where Bob was, they were like, that's where all the big girls swim. You know, that's where you get really fast. So Michael, you know, was the little brother in this family system. And at first there were these like hour long trips.

But then, you know, by the time actually Michael was born, I think they had all moved. So they were even closer. That's the kind of parent that I'm talking about. Like, you know what? If this is better for my children, I don't have a lot of money. I'm going to find a way to move, to be. where my children need to be. And Michael grew up with ADHD. He's been very open, I think, and extremely courageous in talking about mental health and some of his own challenges and triumphs. So this little boy, can you imagine how much energy, like a nine-year-old Michael felt sounds like bouncing off the walls, like can't sit. He had this habit of like grabbing other kids' notebooks like in class. And his mom never lost faith. This is why success is hyphenate. It's not Michael

Phelps, it's Michael and Debbie. So Debbie gets these letters home from teachers that are like, you know, he's a handful. That was the kindest way to put it. Like I seriously question his academic prospects. You know, he doesn't like reading or. And for every problem that they wrote about or talked about, she had a situational solution. She was like, oh, he doesn't like to, you know, sit in a chair, put him in the back of the room, let him get up and pace the back of the room. I know it's unconventional. He'll learn and he won't bother anyone. Teacher says, yeah, but he keeps grabbing other kids' notes.

Put him at his own desk where he literally it's not within arm's reach. You know, he's got too much energy. I'm going to take him to the pool. After training with Bob Bowman, that kid's going to sleep. So I really feel like if we understand success, it's not like Angela wrote a book. Angela wrote a book with editors and research assistants. and cheerleaders and a literary agent and a husband who read every word. I mean, success is not individual.

You know, one of the coaches that is in the book is like individual, that they create performances, but success is collective. Yeah. You're so right. Speaking of ADHD, I was diagnosed at 40 with ADHD. It explains a lot about my crazy child. Oh, I was like, oh, my gosh, this makes so much sense. know that you are like, I feel like podcast hosts in particular, very successful podcast hosts.

I mean, this is not scientific data. This is just my personal experience. So many of them are like, oh, by the way, ADHD. And I'm like, what? You too? It's because we can't get a real job, Angela. That's because no one will hire us. You're like, okay, let's go on to something else. And also, we can't work a real job because we're fired from all of them. So it's like, oh, we got to eat. We got to find something. But when I found out I had ADHD, I started reaching out to other people and talking about it. And you talk about in situated mentors. And I joined this mastermind group with some of the greatest, most successful ADHDers all around the world. And being with them every month, we just meet virtually. We actually have a mutual friend who I want to talk about

in a second, they suddenly, like, I was inspired to write a book and they hooked me up with the literary, Chris, Chris Gilbo hooked me up with my literary agent. The only reason I was able to get a book deal. And, and like, who you surround yourself with, obviously that's another situational change that you can make, that you have no idea the doors that will open and the absolute life-changing magic, to just quote Marie Kondo, of changing the people you surround yourself with. Incredible. And not only did they help me and mentor me, but they inspired me. And one of the friends we have in common, I think it's the same person because I read Grit. I'm obsessed with Grit. But I have a friend Scott Barry Kaufman.

Oh, yes. Yeah, he's in our mastermind group. And you talked about, I think it was him in Grit, how he went to school for music because you really wanted to go. He makes a cameo appearance and situated too, by the way, because Scott's a great psychologist. Yeah, we're really good friends, and we meet every month as part of this group. So I thought, like, what a small world is that? But he inspired me, which he inspired my daughter, just sharing his story. Like, it has this ripple effect. You create a situation where you're surrounding yourself with people who are where you want to be,

who forced you without having to force you to try harder and be. different and show up a little bit better every day. And it's because of those people that I surrounded myself with that I was able to really make leaps in my life in business. Can I ask you, Cass, about that group? Like what, what is its origin if you know? And like, how did you get into it? And what are the people like? How many are they? You know, yeah, tell me more about it. Yeah, there's 20 of us. And what happened was I, so I've been doing clutterbug for 17 years. But the truth is I hid the fact that not only my high school dropout, but I'm a convicted felon. And I was homeless for years and struggled with so many things that I was so ashamed to talk about.

And so I kind of put on my, let's just talk about decluttering and organizing face. And as I grew more successful, the shame of my past grew as well. I was like, I can't let anyone know. It's a bit of an imposter feeling or just, you know, like you're hiding something, I guess. Absolutely. And then when I was diagnosed with ADHD, I suddenly had so much forgiveness for that girl with the criminal record, breaking the law, being homeless, being insane. I was a drug addict. Just all the bad things.

I realize even. You've got it. I have it. Even my weight, even my weight, because dopamine. you know, snacks and eating. And I was just always, I couldn't sit still. I was so hyper and I was just so obnoxious. And suddenly I realized, oh, I wouldn't shame a diabetic for needing insulin.

I have a real medical condition. And the symptom of that was all of these bad behaviors. And so I did a talk. I went to Chad, which is this huge ADHD conference. And I was their keynote speaker. and I sobbed, oh my gosh, don't cry. I sob like a baby. Ugly cry.

I ugly cried on stage. How embarrassing. My first ever keynote. And everyone was so supportive. And after that, they just were like, come into our group. We would love to have you. Is that where you met Scott? Is that the conference?

I met Scott at another conference, Neurodiversion. He was a keynote speaker there. It's an ADHD. an autism event that was started by my friend Chris, and I'm like helping them grow it. And I'm part of the team to organize it. And I met Scott there. We invited him into our mastermind. And yeah, it's just all of us together. We kind of are just our support system for one another. But we also encourage each other to be more. It's beautiful. The the profundity of this, right? Like just use a fancy pants word, but I can't think of a better word. When I'm talking,

I actually, by the way, like all the five syllable words come out. Like, that's how you know, be like, oh, Angela needs more caffeine. But anyway, the profundity of this, Cass, like, can't be underestimated. I mean, I know this young woman who shall remain nameless, who was really like a plant in a closet with no water. And, you know, she was really doubting. She was about to drop out of graduate school. And, you know, like, you know, she had a lot of evidence from her life to be like, well, the first year was a disaster or the second year was kind of a disaster. like I didn't produce anything like I can't sleep, I can't function like I can't be a good psychologist.

And she changed her situation, right? She changed her situation in ways that are similar, not identical, but chiefly getting better mentorship, right? And, you know, my husband occasionally crosses past with this young woman who frequents the same coffee shop. And he was like, you know, it is like a plant got water and sun. Like you wouldn't believe the transformation. Like who is this confident, like, you know, happy person who's like, I'm where I need to be? So this idea that like there is a cast, you know, working in isolation, not understanding her own brain. And there's a cast who's got like a community of people like now I think I'm assuming like friendships really.

like, you know, not just professional transactional relationships. It is transformative. It is like taking a plant and giving it water and sun. And I think that that is, I think, what we're talking about. Yeah, environment-shaped behavior, absolutely. Put a water bottle near you if you want to drink water. But it's much more profound than that. And I do think it's hard when you are not in a good place, when you are stuck,

when you are feeling like you are at a low. it is hard to imagine the person you could be in a better situation. It's also hard to imagine what research shows is very hard for all human beings to imagine, which is exponential growth. Human beings are very bad at kind of understanding that something could get better and better, but not in a very gradual like 1% everyday way. But when you really do start making some of these changes, like, you know, you start losing the weight and you're like, oh my God, I can suddenly sleep, better like, wow, now that I sleep better, I have more energy. Like, wait, now that I have more energy, I'm more present. Wait, now that I'm more present, people want to be with me. Wait,

now that I actually have people who are drawn to me like, wow, I can do these projects that are really ambitious. It is exponential, these upgrades in your situation that upgrade your thoughts, that upgrade your behavior. And then that behavior gets rewarded by an even better situation. I think that's what we're talking about. And it's not just you or me that has a hard time imagining. I think human beings are systematically kind of wired to ignore the situation and also to be blind to the exponential improvement in our lives. That is possible when we begin to change it. Yeah. And the narrative is change your thoughts. The narrative is just try harder. So for my listeners right now, this is going to, I'm putting you on the spot. But what is something small that they can do to change their situation today to see an impact? Because even though I

teach this for a living about changing. I didn't see the correlation either until I read your book. And it has me thinking about everything differently. And so for my listeners who are still like, I don't know what you guys are talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. But like what is an example or something that they can do to change their situation while they're listening or watching this, just to help them kind of bring it home. Well, honestly, I love that you called this podcast Clutterbug, and I know that it might seem like the most trivial aspect of your situation isn't, you know, your peers and mentors and culture, but like your physical space, because that's exactly where I would begin.

Just show yourself how powerful an edit to your personal space could be. If you want to do something less, friction up. And if you want to do something more friction down, and let me give you some very specific examples. Most Americans research shows, including my own research, want to spend less time on their phones, right? If that's true for you, you can move your phone more than three feet away and somewhere you can't see it. I have research on thousands of American teenagers who are asked one question, where do you keep your phone when you study? And it's a multiple choice. And the options start from like, oh, right next to me, like on a screen up.

And then the farthest is like in another room. And I will tell you, Cass, the farther the phone, the higher the GPA. And for any of us, the greater the physical distance, the greater the psychological distance. That goes for phones. It goes for junk food. It goes for anything that you want to do less. Okay. So that's one way to edit your personal space.

The other is to do what, you know, we talked about a little bit earlier in the conversation, you know, put things in your space that you want to do more. Make it frictionless. Okay, here are some examples. We talked about, you know, water bottle, but also we talked about reminders, you know, almost all of the high achievers that I have studied have a favorite quote or a mantra, maybe something their mother told them. And they have them engraved into pewter, into bronze, into wood. They put them on Post-it notes. Another person that I didn't write about in the book, but he is like the chaplain for the university where I work. His name is Chaz. And he rearranged his bookshelves so that the sponsor,

of the books whose messages he wanted to just a light on. He's just like, I just want my eyes to drift there. He put those at eye level. One of the best predictors of reading is just having books around. I know that, you know, increasingly we see this kind of like analog movement where people are, and some people think it's performative. I think it's just situationally smart. Like, if you want to read more, carry a Kindle. Like, carry a book. Like, you know, what's on your nightstand? I think these edits, you know, editing in the things that you want, editing out the things that you don't want, you know, just see the person you are. I think that's the place to begin. It will prove to you that you can be a more quote unquote disciplined person when your situation is your ally, not your enemy. So brilliant. My friends, listen, think about something in your life you want to change. And instead of worrying about motivation or your thoughts, I want you to look at your environment. and the people around you and just your situation and say, is this supporting this? Or is there something that's making it harder? Whatever it is. Because some of you might be like, I want to put down the

cookies, or I want to go to bed earlier, or I want to put down my phone. Or I just want to stop being on the cycle of having to tidy just for it to get messy again tomorrow. What can you do to change your situation, so brilliant, but I can't let you go before we talk about grit for just like a hot second. Of course. Yes, please. Because I don't want to, I always, I still feel like an imposter. I am certainly not a successful person, but I went from someone who was failing at everything to someone who was having success. I'm using air quotes in most areas of my life. And when I read grit, I was like, this is why. And I, this explains me. It does, but I'm going to challenge you for a second because I was 100% consistency and like zero percent actual hard work. So when I think about grit,

for me, in my own life, I'm not working hard. I'm just, like the person who's like, oh, and I work 25% harder, but you do think you are 100% consistent. Is that right? I am One hunt. Exactly it. I'm certainly not David Gaggins. In fact, I take shortcuts and I do everything kind of crappy. And I just, I'm like, everything, everything. I'm not David. Girl, I am not David. Girl, I am not David. I'm like, why do people like go out in the rain and the sleet and snow for a run? How many times are they going to do that? I'm like, again, and you know, Cass, this is not science. This is just Angela, the woman. I'm like, that sounds very bro to me. Like, I'm like, is that the only way to get in shape? Like, suffering. And I don't ever want to. suffer, Angela. Okay, I don't ever want to suffer. But for me, I, here's, yes, I'll just sell it. So my thing is, I'm just going to say, in my business, my only goal every day is to do one thing. And I have to complete one small thing. And that's been my, for 17 years. I'm like, I don't know what you're going to do today, because it doesn't matter, no stress. You just got to do one thing. That's all. It could be for fun, but keep it up. Okay, I'm going to validate you with research, but also my own

personal is like, like, I never get injured in exercise class. You know why? I never push myself that hard. Like I went swimming this morning. That is why my hair is very puffy and not great. But I will say that when I was in the pool, I was like, for me, like if I swim breaststroke, it's like not swimming. I'm just like, you know, I was like, I don't care. I'm in the pool. I did it. I got to the pool. And it doesn't matter if I just swim breaststroke the whole time. It's consistency, not intensity. So that's my personal example. I just want to say I too, like you. I don't try so hard that I ever get interested. or even that I can look around and say, like, look, I'm trying harder than everybody else in this room at this very moment. Now let me back you up by research. When you look at high achievers, it is not their intensity that sets them apart. It is 100% their consistency. And since we've been talking about swimming in Michael Phelps, and by the way, when I get in the pool, I can barely. Anyway, I'm no Michael Phelps.

Let's just say, I'm not a Michael Phelps. But when you talked to Bob Bowman about his best swimmers, including Michael, and you ask them, scale from zero to 10, how intensely do they practice? The number's going to surprise you because you're like, it's going to be like 11. No, he says they give me a consistent eight. A consistent eight out of 10 beats an occasional 11 out of 10, right? And so I think the magic of grit is consistency. And if you want to dig out the like academic papers, which frankly not a lot of people read.

But when I had to name the subscales for grit, I said passion is consistency of interest and perseverance is consistency of effort. I was very deliberate and not calling them intensity, intensity. So I think consistency is a more humane, sustainable, strategic, wise and frankly, less macho way to make your life better. And it's the only way I know to make my life better and to become a better psychologist, a better friend, a better mother. It's just like, you know what, today I'm going to do something. Something's better than nothing. So if I can keep doing something, amazing things will

happen. It's so true. And I'm given my effort is like at a two. Okay. I'm not no, I'm not an eight. But it doesn't even matter. Like you don't have to show up at your best at all. You just have to show up. Keep coming. Keep coming. Brilliant. in both of your books so good. I know this one's going to be a New York Times bestseller, too, because it's such a genius way of looking at something that I will say, no offense, it's obvious. And yet no one's even thinking about it or seeing it or putting that together.

And so at first I was like, did she change her mind about grit? Is this she? But no, it's a compliment to that. It's a compliment, not a contradiction. I expanded my mind. I widened the aperture. It is so good, and I'm such a fan, and I just think it, for me, thank you, because I do think it validates the idea that your home and your environment affect you in ways that you have no idea. And if we can change our environment, we can change our life.

And so, so good. Thank you, thank you. I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed this conversation, and I cannot tell you how much I agree with you. Yeah, your situation shapes you. So shape it first. So, Cass, what is your way of staying consistent? Like, do you have a strategy for maintaining consistency? I do have a strategy and I don't think you're going to like it. And I'm a little bit embarrassed sharing it with you, but I'm going to say it because I'm actually writing a book about it. And it is, it's doing it shitty on purpose. So for me, because I was so. I was never good at anything.

And anytime I tried to put an effort, I was ashamed of how bad I was at everything that it stopped. How far it fell from like what it was. Oh, expectations. Yeah. So I was like, well, you suck. Don't bother. It stopped me from getting started. But when I gave myself permission to suck on purpose, when I purposely did something and

allowed it and even tried to make it bad, it broke down all the expectations, all the perfectionism, all of it gone and it was fun. And so all I have to do is something like pretty crappy. Like I don't fold my clothes when I put away laundry. I just shove it in a drawer. I don't dry the dishes before I put them away. It's okay. I'll just like wipe it on my butt and throw it in there.

If there's a spill on the floor, I just wipe it with my sock. It's like I take these really crappy shortcuts on purpose. But what I realized was happening was slowly, these crappy things, it became practiced through consistency. All I had to do was one thing, or I had to do it for five minutes. But over time, I accidentally built skill. And I accidentally got better at things. And now I'm still putting in crappy effort, but to everyone else, I look like an expert. And so I think that's, yeah, this is your antidote to perfectionism, right? It is. The paralysis and the, you know, like, well, what the hell? Like, why am I even doing

this? It's like the anti-David Goggins. It's like. Okay, you don't have to just like, but just like try to do it crappy. So like for working out, yeah, I was like all you got to do is like all you got to do is jiggle for a minute. And that's that counts as a workout. And you get to tell yourself you worked out. So what happened to my brain when I did this in all aspects, I started telling myself I am a person that works out every day. Doesn't matter that it's only for five minutes. I am a person who saves every day. It doesn't matter that I was also crap. Sometimes I bought what I. I should. I should. I should. I should. I should. I. I should. I. I. I. I. I. I. It's. I. I. I. I. showed up every day and then accidentally became that person without having to put an effort. And so it's not grit, but it is. You know what? I don't know. I study grit and I want to say it is a kind of grit and I don't hate it. As you were describing this to me, Cass, you know, the psychologist who leapt to mind is

Victor Frankel who wrote Mansearch for Meaning. And he was a psychiatrist. He wasn't just a survivor of Auschwitz and, you know, somebody who, you know, had important message about that. He was a psychiatrist before he went to the concentration camps, and he was a psychiatrist afterwards. And one of the things he talked about, and maybe you could include in your book, is something called paradoxical intention. Like, if you really, really try to sleep, it will be nearly impossible to sleep, right? And so he said, you know, what you want to do sometimes, like, do the opposite of what you went. So maybe you go to the pool and instead of saying,

like, I'm going to really, really try to swim really well, you're like, I'm just going to have a a swim. Like, I'm just going to do, like, nothing. You're going to. And And then, but, but, you know, you're doing it consistently. So I don't hate what you're saying. And when you say, well, I guess it's not grit, Cass, anybody who does anything for days and weeks, months and years, who's pointing the same direction, who's making any kind of progress, that's grit. You don't have me David Goggins to have, you know, grit has many faces, including women. And I don't think that, like, suffering, you know, give it 110%, you know, like, you know, leave your heart. heart on the field like every single time. Like that works for many people. It doesn't work for everyone,

but consistency is what anyone needs to make any kind of progress on any kind of goal. So I love it. Oh, that makes me feel so good. Thank you. I was so nervous. I didn't want to tell you. Okay, this, how can people follow you? How can my listeners learn more about you? And where can they purchase your both books, but situated, listen, you have to read it. Everyone listening or watching, it will change your life. Okay, Cass, I'm on social media. I have a 23-year-old who manages it, so I think I'm everywhere on social media. You can buy situated in, I think, most places that you can buy books. You're too generous, but thank you. I put my heart, my soul. And I feel like sometimes my spleen into this book. And it's a message we both believe in. So thank you so much for

sharing it. Thank you so much for being here. I'll put in the show notes, links, and just what an absolute honor it was to talk to you today. Thank you so much. I have to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Cozy Earth. You guys know I switched to Cozy Earth sheets years ago, and let me tell you, there's no going back. I have this, like, satin-esque set that are my absolute favorite I don't actually know what they're called, but they feel like a cloud. Climbing into my bed every night when these sheets are on feels like luxury. And now, even when I stay and go on vacation and stay in hotels, I yearn for my cozy earth bedding.

And they don't just have bedding. They have pajamas and socks and gorgeous clothing. I'm telling you, you've got to give this to try. And right now, you can go to cozyearth.com and use my code clutterbug to save up to 20%. When you try Cozy Earth, you get to experience the craft behind the comfort and make every day feel intentional. And if when shopping you get a post-purchase survey, make sure that you let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Clutterbug podcast. Angela's new book situated came out on September 1st so you can get it right now, whether that's the audio or the Kindle version, whatever. However you like to enjoy books, this is one I absolutely recommend you need to read.

While you were listening to that, I hope you were thinking about your own life and how you can do something small to get situated. In the book, she talks about big and small things. She's like, you could move closer to the beach so you can relax. We don't have to make dramatic changes to our environment to have and see dramatic results. What can you do to get situated? Can you start charging your phone in the other room? Can you have a water bottle out? Can you clear clutter so that you only see things like your vision board or your to-do list?

What can you do today to make a change? Let's not always think about how we can change our thoughts and change our behavior and have more motivation. What can you do to change the situation? How can you take that shortcut? I think this is so brilliant. And I hope you're looking at your house a little bit differently and that you'll take some small action today to get situated. Thank you guys so much. Let me know in the comments below what you are going to do

or what small takeaway you had from today's podcast. I love reading all of your comments. It honestly is like the highlight of my day. Thank you so much and I'll see you guys next time.