Coding Blocks - 2021 State of the Developer Ecosystem

Episode Date: August 1, 2021

We dive into JetBrains' findings after they recently released their State of the Developer Ecosystem for 2021 while Michael has the open down pat, Joe wants the old open back, and Allen stopped using the command line.

So, Joe, how do you want this hot open supposed to work? How are these supposed to work now? Do I just start talking? I mean, I used to do the whole, like, you're listening to Coding Box, but now I don't even know what to do. I'm confused now. So what we'll do is we'll go ahead and we'll record this right now. So we'll go back and record.

Okay, good. Okay, good. And then the thing is what you got to do is just kind of roll the dice to figure out at what point you start so you don't want to start at the beginning as long as it's like in the middle of the sentence or something oh okay yeah all right so episode 164 and then maybe you caught the rest of that is what you're no no you don't even do that oh yeah so it's 64. Is that better? Yeah.

There you go. I'm going to get the hang of this stuff. And, you know, in the meantime, I don't even know if I should say anything else. How is this where somebody says, OK, Boomer? Yeah, there you go. Thank you. Thank you for bringing us home. You know what?

Yeah, fine. You want you want to be you want to be Boomer about it? Like, how about an old man joke for you then? Why do fish live in salt water? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Because pepper makes them sneeze. Come on, guys.

It's like right there in your face. It's pretty good. Do we still talk? We want to talk about Spotify spotify and stitcher there's stuff out there you can find us i don't know you probably already found us through one of those so why mention it but you know subscribe anyways right yeah we have a website too where you can find uh show notes uh examples and discussion and uh more and like there's actually a lot like we tried to do a lot with the links and stuff for the show. Yeah. We also have this social media thing called Twitter.

It has an at sign in front of it, and then it says coding blocks afterwards. Isn't that awesome? We like Facebook and Instagram. Don't they all use that now? I think so. Now who's the boomer? We have those social link things at the top of our website page, so you can go there and check that out.

Yeah. My name's Alan Underwood. I'm so impressed with how we were so efficient in that. Really slender down there. There you go. There you go. That was another SLA that just got in and, you know, merge request accepted. Hey, who are you, sir? I'm Joe Zack.

He's Michael Atwa. Why did you literally face and hands like, oh my god, I can't believe I just told the world I'm Michael Atwa. Like me and me would be so bad. What is that about you? I give up. What kind of subtle insult was that?

I think I like the old intro better. You won. Break them down. This episode is sponsored by Datadog, the cloud scale monitoring and analytics platform for ensuring the health and performance of your databases. All right. So as we like to do before we get into the show, we have a little bit of news.

And first, we want to thank those that have taken the time to go up and leave us a review. So Outlaw, who is super good at reading these, go ahead. Yep. Wait for it. From iTunes, TenPal7. Sweet. Yeah. First try. reading these go ahead yep wait for it from itunes 10 pal 7 sweet yeah first try by the way i think somebody else has to do the bag because i've done the last two bags and nobody's writing them so oh you think that's what it is yeah they heard you know what it is alan it's because you got weird that's why you put on your like you know late night jazz voice there, radio DJ jazz voice, and people are like,

I just can't do this. Like, what? You made it weird, man. I did. You remember that scene from Austin Powers where Dr. Evil, he's like, we made it weird, didn't we? That's what happened. Totally.

Yeah. I can own it. All right. And then, so the only other quick news that we have are I've been trying to now start doing like little quick tips on YouTube. So we have our tips on the show and I'm trying to take some of those and turn them into videos so that you could actually see some of the stuff that we're talking about. Cause some of this is hard to describe and show how it works. so there's two of them we'll have links in the show notes one is making http request easy in visual studio code and another one is being able to see text diffs really quickly in visual studio code doing partial diffs and other ways oh and then um jay

z's got another piece of news right here yeah just want to mention uh atlanta code camp is coming up uh october 9th it took last year off uh stupid covid and uh coming back at it it's it's ten dollars but it's an all-day thing you get lunch uh i think you get a t-shirt too it's really it's really awesome that we uh have done this event um i don't know it feels like a lot of times, but it's always fun. I don't know if we're going to get a booth or not this time, but maybe. So if you want to come there and

say hello, we'll be rocking it. I mean, I hope we get a booth. I want to be able to meet everybody. Yeah, I think we probably will, right? Yeah, and Jay-Z, you're doing a talk. I think I'm going to try and submit a talk. I need to do that here in the next day or two. I submitted.

I don't know if I'll accept it. You'll be accepted. All right, so I think both of us will be talking at Atlanta Code Camp as well. So definitely come up, say hi, and meet me, Jay-Z, and Outlaw. Yep. Yep. All right. Getting into the topic?

Yeah, so let's talk about it. What are we talking about? do you want to intro it yeah so jet brains just published a state of dollar ecosystem which is uh their big survey that they do every year and we did uh github earlier we talked about stack overflow before and so uh it's always interesting to kind of compare these and just kind of uh you know look at um what the different kind of audiences are and what's common, what's different. So I thought that'd be fun. But I thought it'd be fun to take a moment to answer probably the number one question I get really often, which is, why would I use JetBrains products? You know, we do give away on the mailing list and uh giveaway typically three per month

and so you know a lot of times when people you know sometimes they'll win say like okay now what should i get or what do you recommend whatever and uh i find it's um the people who know jet brains know jet brains and the people that don't don't understand why they would use a jet brains product when there's something like a vs code or Visual Studio or something else that is available. So it would just be cool to kind of talk about what JetBrains does. And this isn't a selfish, you know, they do give us licenses to give away on, you know, via contests, but they've never sponsored the show or anything. But I think we all use it at work, right? Yep.

I mean, at least one or three JetBrains products. Yeah. And it's been the case for, like, you know, most years I've had some sort of JetBrains product around, whether it was ReSharper or IntelliJ or whatever. What would you say your go-to is right now? My default editor is IntelliJ, I mean, today. Okay. Alan, I'm going to assume you're going to say the same. So I usually have both IntelliJ and DataGrip open. So because, you know, whether I'm querying something like Mongo or Postgres or whatever,

like it just, it makes it really easy to do that. So you've been on the consolidated route like Jay-Z does where you use the querying functionality inside of IntelliJ? No. I mean, I've thought about it several times, but data grip is it's the best way I know how to describe it is it's a specialized tool, right? Like when you go into data grip, it is data centric, right? Like its whole focus is, is messing with data, looking at databases, schemas, that kind of stuff. So it's geared for that. Not that IntelliJ can't do a decent job of it with what you can use in there,

but I like the more, hey, this is my data tools and these are my coding tools. It's like you could have done the same thing in Visual Studio with SQL Server, but you technically could, but did the majority of people? Probably not. Yeah, you open up SSMS, um that that's basically what you did but to your question like why would you use some like some of jetbrain's products versus versus what i guess jay-z is your question there yeah i think the the one that it gets compared here the people that ask about is like uh you know why not vs code and so so many people are so used to using uh vs code you know for the primary development it's really taken over

and unless you're doing something like a c-sharp or java it's really the kind of the primary ide think i think across most languages and so people just you know they want to know i think it's a legitimate question not challenging judge brains you're, like, why does this exist if I have such a good experience over here? And VS Code is so popular. But I think you kind of hit on what I think is one of the primary strengths of IntelliJ, which is in DataGrip. The reason you use DataGrip, if I understood correctly, and the reason you use it specifically over like the IntelliJ that has you know the tooling kind of built in to talk to the databases is because when you're using DataGrip every button every panel every menu is catered towards querying databases and that's really powerful because it's everything you want to do there's no other stuff

you're not going to be running npm servers or whatever it's all just there for you and that's a big part of why jetbrains i at least i love it so much is that when i'm using intellij everything there is for java uh there's no cruft and everything's integrated too which is really important so um i'll give you an example from webstorm which is their um their javascript kind of website tool. And there's a community edition of that, by the way. I haven't used it before. I'm using the pro version. But I want to check in something in TypeScript, which, by the way,

I didn't have to install a plugin for. I just had it already. It had Angular support already. It just kind of picked it up on my project. I went to commit using the Git tools and the IDE, and it warned me that I had introduced new uh typescript linter warnings and so i said are you sure you want to commit because you just added three new warnings to the project so of course i went and fixed it but what struck me there was that the linter tool was aware of the source code tool.

And that is something that you don't get when you use something like a VS Code. And you're using the source code plug-in from, you know, GitHub, GitLens. And you're using the linter plug-in from somebody else. And you're using the Angular tools from somebody else. And even the linting had to do with Angular. So if you're using plugins from all these different providers with differing kind of levels of quality, then there's going to be things that overlap in weird ways or don't really kind of tie together so nicely.

But when you get everything from one provider and it's all designed around this kind of normal workflow, it's a really powerful and great experience so the one thing i'm surprised that no one said though and this is like always been one of my favorite things about jetbrains products going back to the days of resharper we've talked about was like the like refactoring kind of capabilities that are baked into, uh, you know, either the resharper plugin or their IDEs,

be it, uh, a web storm or an IntelliJ or a rider or even data grip. Like that is the most amazing experience. Like I love VS code because it's lightweight and, um, you know, there, there's, there's a lot of,

there's a lot of pros and cons for it, right? Like one of the cons is that like, you know, if you want to set up like a debugging experience in it, like you got to go and set up that JSON config file for it. But a pro to that is that you can also share that as config, you know, or as code that gets committed into your repo. So now like other developers on your team, like we, you know, another colleague and I, we were on a, on a machine learning Python project and we were able to like commit in to, you know, as part of our VS code, you know, you know, debugging environment, right? So that was kind of nice because then like we could make sure that we were on the same page. But I am with you that on like the, you know, if you're going to be in like,

I can't imagine using a VS Code for like any kind of Java development. I'm sure you could do it. But like, you know, why would you want to? You could also build a house just using a circular saw and nothing else. You know, if you really wanted to like figure out a way to bang a nail into a wall using a circular saw, but there's a better tool for the job. Right. Yeah. And I'll give some context to there because I love visual studio code. I mean, truth be told, I have IntelliJ open all the time.

I have Visual Studio Code open all the time. And I usually have DataGrip open all the time. Like I have all three open, right? And I'm using all three of them throughout the day. But to the point of like something like Java, one of the reasons why something like JetBrains, IntelliJ, or Visual Studio, you know, not Visual Studio Code, but Visual Studio, the reason I go to tools like that, a prime example is in the Java world, you've got all kinds of tools that come along for the ride, right? So you have the JDK that you're developing with.

Are you using JDK 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13? Which ones are you using? Maven, Gradle, whatever. what maven what gradle um environment variables all that kind of stuff right like and what's beautiful is intellij will bundle that stuff in there for you right so you don't have to go like if you're going to do this stuff with visual studio code you're going to have to go install it on your system you're going to have to tell Visual Studio Code where you have all this stuff installed and all that. Whereas in IntelliJ, it sort of gives you that environment, right? Like, hey, you have the 1.8 JDK. Do you want to use that? Sure. Do you want to use the built-in Maven from IntelliJ? Sure.

Oh, by the way, when you launch this program, do you want it to automatically substitute in some environment variables? It's all right there in the IDE, right? Like you don't have to go out of your way onto your system to set things up to make your development experience good. And so once you learn how to operate, which, by the way, I don't know about UJZ and Outlaw, but for me, IntelliJ was a learning curve. Like it really was sure that and part of that's just the java um ecosystem yeah ecosystem in general is it's very um open in terms of what tools and stuff you want to use and and jet brains embraces that right like when you go to set up a new project, you got 50 different options going

down the side that you're like, do you want a maving gradle? Do you want spring, spring boot? That openness comes with verbosity. It does. And so there's, it's almost like you, you find yourself almost buried in a sea of things, but once you learn what it's doing for you, you can really appreciate it. And, and I think another thing that I really do like about using a full blown IDE like that is you can get in debugging and once you learn where all the windows and tools and things are, like they don't hide anything from you. Right. So even if you wanted to go do it on your own, you can still do it. Right. Like if you wanted to go do it in visual studio code or from the command line, you can because those commands

spit out there, but it is an environment geared towards making you productive as quickly as possible going forward. This actually reminds me. We've all talked about this in the past. When you do your Git commands,

we've always been like command line guys when it comes to Git. JetBrains might have converted me a little bit on this, and I'll tell you why. I'm so hurt. Dude, so check this out. If you go in and you say, hey, I'm ready to commit and push this, they've done such a good job wrapping useful features around that. Like it'll show you and say, here's the diffs, right? So instead of going to the command line and saying get diff and then paging through all the output, they give you

file outputs right there compared that you can just click and say, all right, show it to me like you could in a pull request, right? So before it ever goes up, you can see this in your IDE beautifully, like just scroll back and forth. Visual Studio had that same thing. Visual Studio does have it. I never used it. I never used it. It was always like, if you have self-respect, I get it. Yeah. But check this out.

When you go to commit, it'll also be like, hey, you know, do you want me to format this and get it to a standard before you even commit it? So it's built into the IDE. So, you know, we've talked about, what was it, something config. You could editor config. Like if you had something like that in place that said, these are my formatting standards, tabs versus spaces, whatever it can go through and do all that for you before you commit. you don't get that from the command line. So you have more of a, again, it's very much focused on making your life as a developer better. And I like that. Now, I haven't switched completely, but I got a little taste of it. And I got to say, I liked it. it yeah i think um you know what i'll say with the um the like the refactoring tools the reason

that uh you know we we really want to hit on that and mention that is because you don't see a lot of those tools and other ids including bs code because they're very specific to the language and it's a lot of work so resharper uh as an example here is a plugin for visual studio very popular for uh many years. It had some performance problems at some point that have gotten better over time. But people would do that and they would pony up a couple hundred dollars for a plugin to a Visual IDE because it was so good. And no one else could even touch that functionality because it was really hard to do. They built a C sharp compiler in order to introspect your code in order to find problems and help you make refactorings that would actually still compile after you were done. So you could right click and say, hey, split this out to a new class or let me extract the interface or let me implement an interface.

And it would do it. And it could only do that because it was a really heavy duty tool that took many many years to develop and uh intellij has that too with java where the refactoring tools are on point because they've spent years like i don't even know like 15 years 20 years however long they've been around developing really good and difficult to reproduce tools that i just am not aware of and you know a vs code type environment i mean even after all these years like microsoft for example have introduced a lot of functionality that's similar to what jetbrains offered with the resharper plugin but none of it had holds a candle to the resharper capabilities it was always like superior in in regards to the refactoring but then like was always like superior in, in like regards to the

refactoring. But then, like you said, you know, there was over the years, some performance issues that started like creeping in and where people were like, you know what, the Microsoft one's good enough. But I've actually, you know, I'm in a similar boat with Alan where like the main, the three main IDEs that I have open these days are VS code for everything, not C sharp or, or SQL. So like JavaScript, CSS, YAML, uh, whatever, you know, all of that's there. Plus I also just super like it for being able to like quickly search the entire code base. It's so efficient at that. I love VS code, like how lightweight it is for that. Um, and then, uh, but you know, I do prefer data grip though for my actual SQL things. And,

you know, it has like even, even its ability to like reformat your SQL into a consistent format. Like I love that kind of thing, you know? Um, and then, uh, I was, so I, I've been doing a lot of, you know, I'm still doing a lot of.net development these days, but, um, and, and I'm doing it on Mac these days and I was using visual studio for Mac. Uh, but I mean, you want to like it and it's named the same and they kind of try to make it look the same, but it's not the same. And there's like features that aren't there. And the reason why is because technically it's not a port of visual studio. It is a rebranding of Xamarin studio. And so that's why there's, you know, the discrepancy there. So I'm sure over the years, like it'll eventually get a parody,

but my go-to.net environment here lately has been writer. Another jet brains tool, right? Yep. Yeah. So I mean writer is like, just like the same, like writer, web storm, IntelliJ, pie charm, like all all of these they're all based on the idea you know ide that jet brains has and you know then they just like spin off that same thing but for you know a specific language or whatever yeah i think in short we all use the full-blown ide's because they make you faster and more efficient as a developer. That's it. Visual Studio Code is absolutely amazing. And yes, you can do a lot of things with it,

but it won't be as efficient and it won't be as purpose-built, like as integrated. And so you lose some of those features that you get in the big IDEs. It's like this, like, like a Tesla,

right? You could get, you could get a Tesla model S, you know, you could get the performance package on that, right? Like it would be insane. You could literally have an insane,

you know, ludicrous kind of mode to it, right? Stupid fast. It'll get you around the racetrack. You'll have a lot of fun and it'll do like 99% of everything you want to do. But you go to those full fledged IDEs because they're like the F1. They're like the specialized thing. They're going to like, they are amazing at this one task. You want to get around

this particular racetrack. This is the F1 car you need and it's going to do the better job, right? Can you do it with that Tesla? You absolutely can. And you will have a fun, good time doing it. But this one is going to get you across the line faster. Yep. Yeah.

And so I think, you know, in short, the reason that IntelliJ exists, the JetBrains exists, I did look at 20 years, like exactly 20 years since first release. The reason that they're a company that's doing very well is because they're really good.

This is a totally optional program that nobody has to use. And yet they've survived for 20 years. Like how many different job IDs have come and gone in that time? And they've stuck around. It started out as a plug-in there, right? Like it literally was just the plug- plugin for Visual Studio in the beginning. It wasn't IntelliJ. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought IntelliJ was first.

Was it? I mean, here's what we can say though, is when you consider that there's a tool like Eclipse out there that is a full-blown IDE for Java and JetBrains still sells the ever-living

Hui out of IntelliJ, that should tell you just about everything you need to know right there. Because Eclipse is great. Eclipse is actually an excellent IDE. I see Outlog kind of but IntelliJ is

just amazing. Yeah, I was amazing. Yeah. I was never a fan. Like I remember, you know, even back in the day when Eclipse came out, I was just never a fan of it. And you know,

like the back then in the day, you know, you were comparing it to like what a visual studio six, you know, would be like the, the Microsoft C plus plus kind of, you know, IDE that you might, if you were moving from like one language to the next. And I, the Microsoft C++ kind of IDE

if you were moving from one language to the next. And I just... It seemed like Eclipse took off back then in the late 90s because for Java, maybe there wasn't a better choice. But in the year 2021 it's still popular but would but but better than intellij for example it's free that's that's what i'm getting at right okay it's free no but but that's that's the killer point though is there is a fully capable free

ide out there in eclipse fully capable but people are there in Eclipse. Fully capable. But people are still willing to shell out, you know, $100, $200, $300, $300, I think, for Ultimate, right? Well, you can get Community Edition of IntelliJ. Oh, you can get IntelliJ for free, right? The Community Edition. But people still shell out for the Pro Edition because it's so good.

So it's $150 for a personal license, for a yearly license with a perpetual fallback, which means you just don't get updates after that year. It's $500 if you're going through a business license. But even ReSharper, so think like people were paying big bucks for Visual Studio and then you would pay on top of that hundreds of dollars for ReSharper even when it made their machine slower

because that's how good it was and it's just crazy to me well uh so this episode is sponsored by intellijay and jet yeah we should because this episode is not actually sponsored by jet brands no matter how much we are gushing over their products. And, you know, if you've been listening to us for any length of time, you've heard us gush over JetBrains products over the years. So you're probably used to it by now, and you might have already fast-forwarded this part. So if you're just listening. Yeah, that was just the show.

So now let's talk about JetBrains. So let's talk about the survey. So I've got a couple couple highlights I wanted to hit first of all they conducted a survey over the course of the last year 32,000 developers roughly over 183 countries and one thing I thought about

this is interesting is how I expected the demographics to compare to like a stack overflow or github state of the octoverse or a state of JavaScript. And with jet being brains, geez, being jet,

jet brains being primarily, you know, commercial products. It made me think that they were going to skew heavily towards, you know, full-time employees, probably at larger enterprises, things like that.

And so, you know, that's what I've kind of been thinking about. I was kind of surprised by the actual numbers. So, like, one thing I noticed is that 63% of the respondents are full-time employees compared to 70.9% on Stack Overflow. That's a pretty big difference there. And everything else was pretty hard to kind of compare between the two

because they kind of had different bucket sizes and stuff, but I did see that JetBrains skewed slightly younger with people being, or slightly less experienced people being like three to five years being their, their biggest quadrant, their stack overflow had five to nine. So that was kind of interesting. The stack overflow had a slightly older audience or more experienced, I should say. So the more experienced developer you are, you know to not even try to write it.

Just go to Stack Overflow, see if it's already been answered for you. Copy and paste it, give the attribution because you've been doing this long enough that you know that per Stack Overflow's license agreement, you have to do that. And you move on about your day. Whereas if you haven't been doing this very long, you're like, well, I need an IDE that's really strong that can help me out with all this refactoring stuff that I've been hearing the coding box guys talk about. So I guess I need to have one of these JetBrains IDEs to do it for me. That's right. I think that's the takeaway. I just summed up the internet in a nutshell. There you go.

Yeah. I mean, you did it. Another thing I thought was interesting is uh education levels about the same but um 71 of the respondents developed for web backend yeah that's interesting right so running apis yep uh so uh one of the things i thought was interesting i couldn't find a good link to this the the stack overflow survey but i we talked about this and you can kind of see on various charts but stack overflow tended to tended to lean heavily towards like C Sharp and basically just the.NET stack. I don't know if that's because of the history or, you know, I don't know what it was.

I thought it was JavaScript. Oh, I mean, everything is JavaScript. But I just mean like if you look at like the popular languages languages like c-sharp kind of seems like oddly over representative uh represented in there um and even like things like sql server and stuff rank higher than you have john skeet answering questions of course exactly exactly so i don't know if it's maybe the dot net community just really embraced stack overflow or maybe you know i don't know what it was. People just have more questions about.net. I don't know. Maybe there were better forums for Java at the time.

I don't know why really that is, but it's kind of interesting. But I guess, I mean, it kind of makes sense too, though, if you think about the tooling that JetBrains provides, right?

Like, yeah, yeah, you could do Android development with IntelliJ, but when you consider that's just one of all the many tools and that's only one of the many uses that you might use for IntelliJ, then it kind of makes sense that a lot of it would be kind of webby, you know? Yep.

You know, you think about like a, a web storm, for example, or, you know, things that you might do with pie charm, you know,

you could even, you know, flask apps or whatever. Yep. And for example, or, you know, things that you might do with pie charm, you know, you could even, you know, flask apps or whatever. Yep. And, uh, so, and just like you mentioned to like JavaScript way up there,

which really surprised me. I did not expect to see JavaScript because VS code has such a great experience for JavaScript. So I don't know if that's because people are doing JavaScript in addition to what other language, like they're doing full test stack type stuff, or, you know,

maybe web storm is a lot more popular than I knew. I don't know. So when they say this was a survey that people took, right? So this wasn't based on their IDEs. This was just, you know, what language you're using. So JS came away as the most popular here too, huh? Yep. Yeah, it took a big jump from 2018 and 2019 and it just stayed there but i mean is that really surprising though like

i mean it's really like everywhere like you know there was literally a presentation that we saw that we all loved that was javascript is everywhere or something like that you know i forget the exact title but yeah i mean you you really can just write JavaScript for every platform to do everything for anything that you ever wanted. And yeah, whatever you just about can. Yeah, they did say. So one of the questions was, what is your primary programming language? 39% said JavaScript, and it was number one.

And considering this is IntelliJ's, you know, they got they have a whole section on how they did a survey, but it's, you know, they have a whole section on how they did a survey. But it's, you know, their newsletter, their audience primarily. So to see that and number two is Java is 32%. It's just crazy. Yeah, I would have thought Java would have been higher, honestly. Yeah, me too. Like that's how I would have guessed.

Python dropped a little bit in popularity from 2020 to 2021. And that's like the opposite of what you see on every other survey like python is also trending up very hard so i don't know if that's like them maybe losing some ground with pie charm other their id you know their idea uh editors stuff like vs code or i don't know yeah that's what i was wondering if like vs code was taking the pie charm market share yep uh you know what else is interesting is uh java took a big dip from 2020 to 21 and i don't think java developers went to another platform i think they moved to other languages well because they broke apart well they did break apart like kotlin versus java versus uh they have groovy is it separated scala so like all of those different uh jvm uh like all all of the languages that

compile down to bytecode are are like separated yeah but it looks like all of them collectively took the same you know took hits maybe not yeah except php took a big uh jump well that's not java that's not a bytecode one though no no i'm sorry i was just yeah you're right you told her i was just looking at the ones that did but yeah absolutely so i see yeah well what you said is absolutely right i was really surprised to see colin uh took a dip there too from 2020 but 2020 was a great year for colin um so yeah interesting and i'll do a lot of stuff kind of traveling down uh rust is going up. TypeScript is going up. JavaScript is about the same.

So just kind of interesting. I wonder, like, I just had a weird thought. I wonder, like, just with, like, you know, if this survey, was this survey done in 20, this was over a year. So I assume that means it started in 2020 and it's been going on. Right. And like, we've been dealing with the pandemic and I don't know how, like some industries have been hit by that. So I wonder if that's had any part of that, you know, some of those numbers going down. I don't know.

Yeah. I forget. I need, I forget where the link is. I need to find the link to where the, what they did to figure out the exact date. So I don't know exactly how long the survey was open for. Okay.

Um, methodology. I mean, I would hate that to be the reason. Yeah. But you know, you got to take into consideration like what's happening in the world around you.

When you look at numbers like this to like put things into context, you can't just like look at it in a vacuum by itself and be like, Oh, well the only, you know, everything a vacuum by itself and be like, Oh, well the only, you know, everything else was held constant and you know, Java lost popularity. Like really?

That seems crazy, right? Like TypeScript lost popularity according to this, this, uh, it might, it might, unless I'm reading these wrong,

like I don't, it's, it's saying what programming languages have you used, right, in the past 12 months. Oh, okay. So maybe I'm reading it wrong. Yeah, I don't know that it's popularity. It's just what are you coding in? Okay, I'm reading it wrong then.

And so speaking of being wrong, I looked at how they, you know, gathered their results. They have a big section on sampling bias reduction. And the deal here is that they got respondents from Twitter ads, Facebook ads, Instagram, Cora.

And then what they did is they waited it. And so they did like three different stages of waiting based on populations in different areas of the world, currently employed versus not, and also like employment status. So it's pretty advanced. It's definitely over my head to kind of understand like what they're doing other than trying to minimize bias. So like they knew they were going to get kind of an unfair or not unfair, but just a very skewed result based on their audience. And so they tried to fight that by going to these other communities in addition to their

own communication channels like their mailing lists and stuff. Okay. So, yeah. So I guess things I said at the beginning about what kind of developers you might expect to see, you know, that's out the window. They tried to reach outside of their bubble is the point. Yeah. Okay. Which I have mixed feelings about that. I kind of wanted to see what was in their bubble, but fine.

Yeah. So interesting. Um, I forget where we're I think, I think we're here. The top five languages devs are planning to adopt. Yep. And this was definitely something we've seen everywhere. Go is up there. Rust, of course, is the one. I mean, every graph been moving over to Rust. So it's definitely not the kind of, it doesn't have the kind of excitement around that it did years ago, but it's still in the top five. You know, like don't get me wrong.

Kotlin, always glad to see that TypeScript Python. TypeScript, like what is going on? I mean, people got tired of being bitten by runtime errors in JavaScript, right? Like that's it. Yeah, I mean, I got tired of being bitten by runtime errors in JavaScript, right? I guess so. Yeah, I mean, I still don't understand. So I would love to hear your perspective on why TypeScript is so lit right now. Because I don't understand.

Like, I like TypeScript. You know, it actually reminds me a lot of Kotlin. Like, just in the syntax, if you look at it, it kind of types behind the way it does generics and everything. It looks like Kotlin to me. So, you know, it's fine. It's great. It just doesn't seem very beginner-friendly.

I think you would normally learn JavaScript and then take it to the next level with TypeScript. I have a hard time thinking of people learning TypeScript first because it seems just so much more advanced to me. Yeah. I can't. I got to believe that you're a JavaScript developer first and then you're like, oh, hey, and by the way, there's this thing called TypeScript and oh, like that gives me some cool stuff. But when I don't like

that cool stuff getting in my way, I'm just going to go back to whatever the current ECMA standard is. Or, oh, hey, by the way, there's a new ECMA standard feature that isn't yet compiled to TypeScript, but I can go ahead and do what I need to do. So JavaScript has such a huge, if you troll around Twitter a little bit, you'll see people all the time like, hey, I'm trying to learn

JavaScript to get a developer job. That's a common sentiment. You'll see people all the time like, hey, how to learn JavaScript, JavaScript, like it's everywhere, JavaScript and Python. And so to see TypeScript, like a lot of the TypeScript growth is coming away from the JavaScript growth and JavaScript still doing fine. But I think it's a reasonable assumption to think that most people who are going to TypeScript are going there from JavaScript. So it's just kind of interesting to see this like, kind of, you know evolution maybe a big part of the rise of typescript though like i'm not trying to dog on it at all but by any means like i think i think it's great but maybe maybe the rise of typescript

has a lot or in part to do with angular because angular pushes typescript as like here's the de facto standard like this is the way we do things in the Angular world. You want to write an Angular app, you're going to use TypeScript, at least in like modern Angular, right? And like, maybe not,

you know, Angular JS. Yeah. Which by the way, can we just like tangent for a moment? Like Google really Angular versus Angular JS. I still to this day, I'm like,

which one am I writing in? I don't remember is it english i always confuse the two it's frustrating yeah so the easy way to remember it is this the one that you're talking about that goes with typescript they don't put js on that because you're coding it in typescript if you're doing it the angular what so i should call it angular ts i suppose you could coin that if you wanted. Hashtag trademark coding blocks. Yeah, but the original Angular was JavaScript.

And so that's the way I can remember it. That one was AngularJS, the new one. I like that. What's it called? Mnemonic? Mnemonic? I don't know if that is. Yeah. Let's not go there again.

Yeah, we... I don't remember. I don't either. Let's try to remember. You know what? That's okay. It's fine because I just invented a new word. So you want to hear my new word? Yep. Plagiarism. I'll define it later but that's my new word that I just invented.

Very nice. All right. Yeah, so, you know, Angular, I think we can credit with a lot of the growth of TypeScript because, you know, that was the default language. And maybe when people moved on from Angular, because it does seem like Angular is, you know, is definitely flagging in popularity. I think React is is just crushing it. But maybe when people moved from Angular to React, they missed some things about TypeScript, so they brought it over with them.

Well, that's why it'd be helpful to know that before making that conclusion, like, okay, is there a rise in Angular and a fall in React? Or are they both trending at the same levels or whatever? But even if Angular, as long as Angular was trending up, it really doesn't like React could also be trending up. But if Angular is also trending up, then that could be a rise in TypeScript as a result.

Right. I don't know. So the so JetBrains has a section on JavaScript. They have they have big sections on every language. I was I wasn't going to go into this specific languages cause there's a niche, but, the share of view users grew from 34% in 2020 to 43% while angular users view view, uh,

angular decreased from 23% last year to 18% in 21. Hmm. That is surprising. That really is. And React is number one with 50% of the JavaScript framework. Vue is number two with 43, and Angular is number

four with 18. Here's why I take issue with this, because clearly the world has not seen my Game Jam edition here, and they didn't follow along in my Game Jam development, because if they did, they'd have been like, oh man, check out this Angular. He's writing a game in Angular here and they didn't follow along in my game jam development because if they did they'd have been like oh man check out this angular he's writing a game in angular that's amazing and it would i think that that would have definitely like helped the the popularity of

angular so you know i apologize to google now for not having enough good seo for making that happen for them well you know what's interesting uh so there's their javascript section i just looked this up uh it does lump in people who chose TypeScript as like primary language and CoffeeScript. So it says JavaScript, but it's really those three languages. So there's not a separate breakout there. Okay. Yeah, so that's interesting. So, yeah, so the top five languages that devs are actually learning means, you know, I kind of interpret is either they're getting new work in these languages or these are just languages that they want to work with.

JavaScript, Python, TypeScript, Java, and Go. So interesting to not see Rust there. Yeah, that's the language that had all the love from stack overflow. So, yeah, but I'm not surprised to see go in there. Now I am surprised to see like Java instead of rust. Yeah.

No, not, not for what devs are like. No, I mean, Java is so big in the enterprise software world or just, I mean, heck, so big in the enterprise software world. Or just, I mean, heck, look at all the Apache projects out there. Almost every single one of them are written in Java.

So it's not surprising that there's a lot of people picking up Java, especially if they're working with open source software at all. Yeah, I mean, fine. Then don't break apart TypeScript from JavaScript because Rust still seems like it should deserve a placement. But it wasn't, so I'll move on. But yeah, I'm surprised to see. I agree with Joe is what I'm getting at.

I'm not surprised to see Go in the list. I am surprised to see Rust missing from it. And I'm also not surprised to see Python in that list or even JavaScript. But the TypeScript and the Java ones, I'm kind of like, eh, you could drop either one of those for something else, in my opinion. Speaking of dropping, the languages that it fell, Ruby. Yeah. Ruby, which I still love. Objective-C and Scala.

So those all, you know, kind of those were the losers. I mean, really no surprise there with Objective-C there, right? I mean, yeah. Ever since Swift was introduced, like Apple has pushed that. Like, why would you bother to use the old language that they don't really care for you to use anymore? Right. Yep. You know, when they got the new, you know, like you could make the same analogy going into like a Microsoft world too,

right? Like Microsoft introduced.net and you know, C sharp and yeah, sure. Back in the day when they did that, you were, you technically could keep on doing your MFC C plus plus development if you really wanted to. But here's the shiny new toy over here called C sharp and.net. And do you, do you, you sure you don't want to use that? Really? Yeah,

of course. Yeah, no doubt. No, no one would, no one would learn objective C by choice. Uh, no.

Uh, so top five is, have you looked at objective C? Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't, if I tried. So the top five fastest growing,

uh, Python, TypeScript, SQL and go. That's only four. I don't know tried. So the top five fastest growing, Python, TypeScript, SQL, and Go. That's only four. I don't know what I did there. Kotlin's the other one. Okay. Yeah, I was going to call you out on that one. Okay, I take issue, though, with the way that they put SQL in here, like in some of these charts and whatever.

Because I'm like, well, hold up. Wait a minute. Like, is it T SQL or is it like PL PG SQL? Or is it like, what's the, uh, it's ANSI SQL. That's what it is. No, man, it's not. And that's the problem. Like that's, that's exactly what I'm getting at is like, depending on what the database tool it is, like they're kind of lumping it all into one. So I'm like, okay, fine, whatever. Then it goes back to like, well, why not lump in like a TypeScript and a database tool it is like they're kind of lumping it all into one so i'm like okay fine whatever then it goes back to like well why not lump in like a typescript and a javascript then if you're gonna you know because because you know it's not like you can take sql server specific t-sql and

just dump it into oracle or postgres yeah or mysql so sure uh and one last thing i want to call out is just the um the operating system so they said uh was it 61 windows and uh the rest was uh you know other stuff but uh 40 44 osx and um the uh osx was actually number three so i'm looking for that stat now sir that is now called mac os it has no longer been os 10 for a while no no no no see what you misunderstand here outlaw is people developing on that are using osx old systems it actually does say mac os i said i did that even still it would be os 10 not osx right yeah yeah i always call it osx but yeah i'll put mac os in there in the show notes for us i just uh i just fixed it um so 47 though so number two was actually linux interesting there's another interesting one in here too that i don't know

that if you had on your list about like using the WSL system for local development, did you see, did you read any of that? Yeah, a little bit. I didn't look like 65% of the respondents don't use it at all. Right. So, you know,

that was kind of like sad, but then it was like, it was kind of, you know, relatively close between the remaining 35%, 21% that work with tools installed with it in WSL 17 that work with a project and tools located in WSL and 14% run their application in WSL. I don't know what the other means in this scenario though.

About do you use it for local development? Yeah. Yeah. though um about do you use it for local development yeah yeah i have like okay what does that mean like i i don't write my code in it i don't compile on it but i like to use it forget i i don't know honestly i don't know i mean that's actually when you think about it though wsl is kind of niche or niche, however you want to say it. I think we agreed that the proper pronunciation for that would be nosh. Nosh. Or nosh. Yeah.

But having a fifth of your user base using WSL is not terrible. You know, that's actually not bad, I wouldn't think. Well, it'd be closer to a third right it'd be over a third of the respondents oh you're right you're right i was just looking at the 21 yeah a third of a third of the developers are using wsl and windows that's actually pretty good that's that's not bad adoption rate if you're microsoft looking at saying hey are we investing our development resources in the right places? Should we continue doing WSL? If a third of your developer base is taking advantage of it, that seems like a pretty good thing. I will say, though, that I will admit that I am

not a mathematician. And even though I do follow the daily teachings of the math of a chicken. I do not understand the jet brains math here because 21% plus 17 plus 14 plus two is not 35. And in fact, it is greater than 35. So you're going with the 65% versus it. Yeah. I don't know how it all breaks down. So I'm guessing that like, maybe that was like a multiple choice that, that, that, that 35% breaks down into like multiple choices between those other four answers. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Cause otherwise, but that's a weird way to present your results, I think in my opinion. So basically, no, I don't use it as 65%. So there's 35% of people out there using WSL for the development purposes in some fashion. I mean,

yeah. Cause like other questions, it makes sense for like where, where it's clearly a multiple choice question, which platforms do you develop for? Right. Right. And it's like 71% backend and 58% front end.

And it's like, okay, well that's cause you're probably doing both. And that makes sense. Right. But this WSL question was like, do you use it? Yeah. both and that makes sense right but this wsl question was like do you use it yeah this episode of coding blocks is sponsored by datadog the unified monitoring platform for increasing visibility

into your postgres sql databases that's right create custom drag and drop postgres dashboards within seconds so you can visualize highly granular data and custom metrics in real time. And Datadog's 450 plus turnkey integrations make it easy to correlate metrics from your Postgres servers with your other services throughout your environment. And as I am like to do, I am currently browsing their website and just wanting to cry at the beautiful visualizations. I started with Cooper daddies, but I thought it'd be fun to go take a look at a Google cloud platform and Amazon web services and just see how well they integrate and what kind of visualizations they have for that. And the amount of information you can get on a single pane of glass is,

is just astounding. And the crazy thing is, is that it works together to tell you a story you see right off the bat am i working and then very quickly you're able to pivot from if not what's wrong and that's a really i mean it just it's worth a lot you know when you're having a problem there's a lot of things you would uh you would do to be able to see information that you can just have right here. That's great for development, and it's great for triaging those production environments. It could just be awful.

So you want to get this set up ahead of time. Yeah, and sometimes you don't know where that problem is coming from. And that's why observability is so key and so important. And Datadog are really – we've referred to them in this regard before. They are the thought leaders when it comes to how to monitor all of these different tools. I mean, can we, for a moment, just pause. 450 plus turnkey integrations. That is insane.

Can you rattle off 450 technologies right now? Because Datadog can, and they've got visualizations for it. That is insane. Do you have a product? Do you work on a product that has 450 plus supported integration points? Datadog does, and they've got you covered. When Jay Like when, when Jay-Z talks about like the single pane of glass, you know, even like, okay, so I,

I mentioned Postgres at, you know, a moment ago, cause why not? We love Postgres or you, you want to see, you're trying to do that deep dive investigation that Joe mentioned, right?

You want to see like, okay, well what's the latency? Like how rows are being updated, deleted, inserted. Uh, what about my sequential scans? Can I see what's going on there? Can I see like, what about the heap updates? What are the top function calls that are happening in my Postgres cluster? What about the number of hosts with replication delay? These are the types of things that you're going to easily be able to see simply because you are using Datadog with your Postgres database.

You're going to get these kind of great visualizations and be able to immediately get the value back from that small investment to see what's happening inside of your application. And the point made earlier is like, not only are you able to get that with Postgres, but then you can see like what's happening because of the 450 plus integrations. You can see like, well, okay, how does that then translate to the rest of the traffic as it flows through the rest of my application, right? You need Datadog. Datadog provides a real-time service maps, algorithmic alerts, and end-to-end application tracing so you can monitor your systems proactively and detect issues before your customers do. And you can start that monitoring today. And we've got a special offer for you, 14-day trial. And here's the offer. You get a free super cute data dog t-shirt after you create just one dashboard.

So visit data dog, HQ.com slash coding blocks to learn more about how you can start monitoring your databases with data dog. All right. Somebody else doing this bag here. Cause I got weird with it last time and it didn't work. All right. Hey, Jay-Z here. else doing this bag here because I got weird with it last time and it didn't work. Is that right? Hey, Jay-Z here. I'm doing a bag this time.

Alan did a little weird last time, so I just want to kind of normalize myself right now. This is even worse, man. This is so worse. I got to take my headphones off. My ears are bleeding listening to this. I just want to ask you to leave us a review.

We tried to make it really easy for you. So I'm going to get real close here to the microphone. I can't even say it with a straight face. We're going to whisper this in your ear. I really, I'm not enjoying this. Can I say that? Can I be offended for the whole internet? Yeah, I can't do it anymore.

Because I, like, how about if I just do this as a normal thing and say like, hey, if you haven't already left us a review, we greatly appreciate you leaving us a review. And as a reward for you leaving us a review, I will say this beg in a normal voice and you don't have to listen to Alan and Jay-Z get onto their weird late night DJ, uh, you know, announcer voice. And instead, you know,

just do us a favor and leave us a review. Cause we really do appreciate it. Despite how weird they've made this. We really do appreciate it. Oh God. Here he goes again. Yeah. Thanks.

That's really nice of you. Now you make it sound like we're on NPR or something. All right. Well, I tried. I tried, Internet, and I failed you, and I apologize. All right. Well, then, how about, you know, I would have treated you guys for a joke but you know what forget it you made things so weird you don't even deserve it

how's that you like that oh man you know I'm going to just go read my book you know I don't need you guys I'm going to go I started reading I actually started reading a new book last night

on the history of glue before bed and I just couldn't put it down. Look at how much I got him. That's really good. The hits just keep coming. You can thank Mike RG for that one. And you probably knew that one before I even said it. So it was going to be Mike RG because like, why wouldn't it be? That's awesome.

All right. So it's now time for my favorite portion of the show is the part where we say the beg normally. Okay. No, just kidding. It's survey says. All right. Let's see. A few episodes back, we asked how important is it to learn advanced programming techniques? And your choices were extremely important. You got to keep sharpening

that saw or it might be important, but not enough to go out of your way. You'll learn it as you go or wait, there's advanced programming techniques. Like what switch statements, or it's not important at all because there's already a stack overflow answer for it. All right. So this is episode one 64, according to tech co's trademark patent-pended, uh, rules of engagement here, Jay-Z, you are up first. Advanced programming techniques. Let's go. Oh, geez. Oh, geez.

Extremely important with 70%. Oh, you're so losing. Meh, it might be important. I want to go 50%, but it's probably way higher. Okay. So, uh, Jay-Z extremely important. You got to keep sharpening that saw at a whopping 70%. That's confidence right there, Alan. You need to learn from him.

Yeah. And, uh, Alan goes, eh, might be important, but not enough to go out of your way. You'll learn it as you go at 50%. According to our rules, you both lost because you both went over. But if we were to give it by horseshoes kind of rules here of who's closest, then Alan, meh, was the number one answer. And you just barely overshot the 50 oh it was 49 of the vote yeah way to harp on the negative they were like yeah you heard what you wanted to hear and you're

like oh i'm gonna stick with that yeah yeah we tried yeah we both failed yeah you did well technically you're not wrong you're not wrong. You're not wrong. Yeah, okay. That word did extremely important fall. I've got to imagine it was somewhere near the bottom. No, it was second, 43%. Second. Wow, close second. All right.

That's pretty high. Yeah. I mean, it was pretty much those two. The other ones really didn't register. All right. All right. All right. So, yeah, that is the Internet. We have solved all of the Internet's problems now, and we know that we need to be sharpening the saw.

All right. So for this episode's survey, we ask, and this one is kind of fitting, you know, given our previous love affair for JetBrains that we mentioned. What's your IDE of choice? And your choices are, I prefer a lightweight IDE such as Visual Studio Code or Atom. Or I like a fully functional IDE like Visual Studio or IntelliJ. Or I like to use editors like Vim and tell others it's an IDE. Or I like to use editors like Notepad++ or Supplime, burying myself in plugins so that it can act like an IDE. All right.

Well, I'm not going to answer. Yeah, i expect to get some hate mail about that one so i'm not gonna answer i'm not gonna answer direct all your hate mail to joe on slack yeah that's me yeah well um i mean i feel a little tech to. How about we talk about a little lifestyle and fun? Is this like skateboarding and mountain biking kind of stuff? Yeah, actually it's kind of not.

That's what I expected. There is a hobby question, but it was actually more about life in general. Were you guys ever into skateboarding? I know Joe and I go biking, but more about just kind of like life in general did you ever like were you guys ever like into skateboarding i know i know like joe and i go biking but uh were you ever in like skateboarding or anything like that as a kid or bmx or anything yeah i was terrible i could never do it well i

wanted to yeah i i broke my arm in three places and the doctor told me not to go to those places anymore so nice another biker g yeah of course biker g is the best yes uh so it's just a couple of samples of the kind of questions they did ask it's like uh do you give away money to charity or do you donate your time uh do you have a pet? What hobbies do you pursue in your free time? And am I looking at the 2020 survey? Hold on a second here. Is that one of the survey questions? That's an odd one. You know, one thing we didn't mention is you can actually see their surveys from previous years.

So that's funny. I was looking at 2020 briefly. But still, same kind of thing. How about this one? I'm curious to know how you guys would rank on this one for the 2021 because I'm going to be current. I like to be topical with my questions, Joe. I don't like to ask questions from 10 years ago. But when you write a check at the grocery store when you're in line. No, I'm just kidding. How do you pay most often? What kind of payment method do you use? Your choices are payment card, mobile payment, cash, digital wallet, QR code, SMS, or other.

Surprisingly, Bitcoin or digital cryptocurrency isn't on the list yeah uh yeah i mean i definitely do payment card i if i can use a mobile payment though like uh i have a few apps that i use before and then i absolutely do that like food places i pick up food often i absolutely just do that online and uh you know like it's got my card saved whatever you know you know, done. So like Starbucks or whatever, you just beep, beep. Well, I was assuming that mobile payment meant things like a Samsung pay or an Apple pay. Agreed. Like they're not referring to having your card saved in their profile because then you're still just using a credit card, which I would assume is what they meant by payment card. Yeah.

Which payment card. With your phone. Yeah. Payment card was the number one choice. I guess technically digital wallet might cover the cryptocurrency. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Mine's the card tap to pay as many places as I can. Who's doing QR code payments?

Don't do that. I didn't realize I could make a QR code for $100 and use it to pay stuff. I'm going to go find a QR code generator right now. Yeah. Money. Make your rain up in here. Oh, you want a check? I thought you needed money.

Yeah. I'll just pay the whole thing off. That's right. That's awesome. Oh, here's a question. What sorts of information do you use in general? I have not seen this question on the survey. So 76% of community forums,

YouTube, to social media down quite a bit, but still glad to see it. Podcasts is at 31%. The state of the JS survey asked what podcast people listen to, and I've seen it kind of asked in different ways, but it's just kind of cool to see podcasts listed as a source of information.

A lot of surveys still kind of treat it as entertainment. Have you heard this show, Joe? Yeah, I know. This is all about information and trying to help. What do we call it? Funtainment or infotainment or something? Yeah, infotainment. Yeah, infotainment. So it's up there. It's over TV.

Yeah. Pretty cool. It is kind of surprising that wikipedia i mean not wikipedia youtube would be up as high for like learning something like that that's kind of an interesting one but but also like uh actually i guess i'd want to know this question better because social media like when they say social media like are people like going to facebook to learn like they're just looking at their timeline people like going to Facebook to learn? Like they're just looking at their timeline to learn how to code and TypeScript and just hoping that like, you know, their mom or dad or college roommate also know TypeScript. Yeah, that is interesting.

I wonder if it's like you follow people on Twitter that have blogs and then you go read those blogs. I'm wondering if that's kind of like what that leads to. I do that. I follow a lot of technical, you know, people on Twitter. And so, yeah, so that's why I kind of imagined it's like,

I definitely use the, use it as kind of a professional venue more than anything else. And there was a survey question. Maybe it wasn't on this section, but they did ask about like ways that you prefer to learn. And reading was quite a bit higher than video but um depending on the country they actually broke it out uh maybe it was under demographics uh certain countries were like very much more prone i think india was very

much higher on video for example than they were on reading most other countries were higher on reading i mean educative i'm sure would love to to know that right because i mean that's a big part of their pitch is the fact that you don't have to sit through a whole video to watch it. You can just read the parts that you care about and skim around through it. Yeah. So maybe that was under demographics. I bet it was. See reading. You know, one thing I do like on this particular page, and this is good for anybody that's doing any information, you know, writing stuff for people. Do you use your smartphone to read professional materials? 80% of people said yes.

So that's probably pretty important. Like if you're writing content that, you know, you want people to be able to read and learn from, then make it accessible on those devices. As Michael heads over to codingbox.net to check how well it looks on the mobile. Just kidding. Just kidding.

I'm still trying to find where that was. This survey is really big. I mentioned that before. Counting four times, four, five, six.

So there's 24 sections to the survey results here. And it goes into like half of that's like languages basically. So you're probably not going to read all those, but I mean, we've got like what, two or three in so far. So we're doing good on time. I do.

Good. Uh, yeah. So, uh, here's a funny one for you. 74% of respondents use online ad blocking tools ad blocker or i use a pie hole oh it's kind of funny yeah i i uh i use some i use or you block origin on my desktop but uh i do use uh one on ios as well that's i think what's called like

purity or something like that i use the grave browser now of course you're having a content or you know oriented business you know like we get ad revenue like you kind of feel bad but the thing is like so many websites like just absolutely abused like go to a buzzfeed or something like i think there's a website in there somewhere yeah you know good luck finding it it's ridiculous uh so accounts i thought it was pretty interesting so um most people uh 84 had a github account reddit was way down at 47 which uh i was surprised by yeah that is yeah where was that section yeah but i guess it's like really easy though to like have your favorite subreddits and

not bother to like participate in any of it right just be a reader yeah whereas with github you probably have that account not because you're like participating in repos that aren't yours but because you're using it for your own stuff yeah or if you yeah i guess because you can clone even without no you still have to have an account to clone no you can clone locally what you couldn't do is fork and host it on on github without having it without having the account but you could you could absolutely just click on that clone url and get it get a copy of the code and as long as you're never trying to push it back up to github then it doesn't matter well you know you know jay-z said that he was surprised that

the the reddit one was so low but after github it falls off a cliff to the next one it's 84 to 58 for a twitter user so it's a big drop just even to number two well yeah and then like everything from twitter through reddit are like similar you know they're not there's not a lot of there's not a lot of distance between those you know twitter instagram linkedin facebook stack overflow and reddit right i'm sorry i was bouncing around again looking at last year's surveys uh it's laid out just differently enough it's kind of difficult to click around easily but uh yeah so um they do have on here like you know how how much do you like the baldong website for sharing uh you know your java tips and everything and i just wanted

to let the internet know that um one mr alan underwood did happen to send me a link where I was asking something. I don't even remember what the topic was. And Alan was like, oh, here, check this out. And he sent me, wait for it. What was the link to, Alan? What was it? It was your favorite website.

Come on, say it with me. But it shows up on every Java search. You've got to go out of your way to avoid it. I just found it hilarious that you were like dogging on it last time and then like no sooner than we get past that episode you're like hey here's a link here's something helpful hey and i even no i didn't say here's something helpful look this is what maven rapper is oh yeah that's right that's what it was that's what it was about it was about maven about. It was about Maven rapper.

We were talking about Maven versus Maven rapper. Yeah. I hate Baldo. Yeah. One of them had one of them had some successful gold albums and the other one didn't. It's the way I remember it. So I found the I was looking for. So 50 percent, 57 percent people uh prefer learning via reading 52 or sorry 42 video and they didn't

mention uh india as being the opposite with a 70 choosing video uh audio one percent wow yep we're losing here's one that alan like. Which sort of headphones do you mainly use? Oh, I saw that one. Wireless is up there finally. Yep. Thank you, Apple. They were both about the same though, right? I want to say. It was 39 and 34.

34 for wired, 39 for wireless. Yeah, I used them both. Well, both equally was 19. Yeah. And then 80% are monsters because they don't use them at all. Yeah, no thanks. I was wearing headphones all day. It was great.

So that's a pretty interesting kind of comparisons on Workplace. We won't go through all that. But just kind of seeing like from last year to this year, like the most lunch went to uh cooked at home compared to last year which is definitely not it's kind of funny to see like oh yeah uh things like what time people started for work stayed about the same though so it's kind of interesting so people kept their schedules mostly uh despite the year and video games uh number one hobby up from number two last year uh programming was listed as the number one hobby so either people played more video games or maybe they just, you know, kind of changed their habits a little bit. Maybe they had more time because they didn't have that commute.

So they were able to, like, you know, get in some more relaxation by way of video game. Absolutely. Now, the next section, I'm going to ask you not to go look at it. Oh, shoot. Yeah, don't look at it. Oh, shoot. I'm just kidding. I won't. Next section is about databases. There's a couple interesting stats there, which we'll look at in a second.

Or maybe I'll just tell you, just to kind of prime the pump here a little bit. Databases used in the last 12 months. MySQL, 61%. Way up there. Postgres, 36%. Redisqlite uh mongo down 28 sql server sql server is 19 so you know all the kind of usuals um and the ones were like sql's primary language again like my sql postgres redis was up there this time um ria made the list mongo and then it kind of drops off a cliff after Oracle.

Now, here is a graph that I am still figuring out how to read that I thought was really interesting. If I tell you a language, do you think you could guess what the most popular database is? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So, what about Kotlin? Mongo. It's a Kotlin? Mongo. MySQL. It's a little hard to read. I was going to say MySQL for all of them.

I should say. So let me rephrase the question a little bit. What we're looking for is the relative popularity of the database by primary program language, which is to say that if I tell you a language like Kotlin, you're looking not necessarily for the one that's most popular because that would be MySQL, right? Is another answer. But rather, what is more common in Kotlin than it is in other languages? Does that make sense? Okay, like what database technology is more commonly paired with Kotlin?

Yeah. Okay. And it is with other languages. And by database, we're talking about a relational database manager, or are we talking about document, or are we talking about streaming? You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. I'll tell you, it's a list of eight. MySQL, Postgres, Redis, SQLite, Mongo, Maria, SQL Server, and Oracle. But more used in Kotlin than in other, not what's the most used in Kotlin, but what's more frequently paired with Kotlin than in other languages. Right, so I'm going to say Oracle.

Relatively popular. I'm going to say Oracle. So Oracle with Kotlin, negative 15%. So if you're using Kot colin i somehow owe you some oracle yeah you are a little less likely to be using oracle you are much more likely to be using sqlite relative to other languages interesting i was not going to guess sqlite and you know why that is i can tell you exactly why becauselin was originally, it is like the default programming language for Android. Yep.

And Android, you're going to do SQLite databases for on-phone database types. That's it. That makes a lot of sense. That's funny. So, yeah, so you can kind of see, like, if you think about this stuff, Postgres is a little higher, too, so 7%. And I would kind of say, like, Oracle, that was my first guess, too. But I kind of think if you look at Java, guess what? Oracle, 91% more likely relative to Java.

So I think like Kotlin, maybe more green-filled applications and Android, stuff like that. And so they're getting away from Oracle. So you can kind of make some inferences there based on what you know about the languages. It's interesting. I'll give you an easy one. C Sharp. What did you say? C languages is interesting. I'll give you an easy one. Oh, God. C Sharp. What did you say?

C Sharp? Yeah. SQL Server. This one's the biggest. Wrong. Dang it. You're so close. SQL Server.

222%. We're likely to be using SQL Server by far. The only one that even broke 100, I believe. So, yeah, if you're working with C Sharp, you're far more likely. Second most likely is SQLite again. Yeah, and everything else is negative. Oracle is actually zero. So, you're average.

But, yeah, everything else, like if you're working with C Sharp, you probably are working in SQL Server, maybe SQLite, and you're probably not working in anything else. So I'm the weirdo for doing C Sharp development with Postgres is what I'm hearing. Yes. Yep. Yeah, that's uncommon. It's only negative seven, though, so it's not that far off. Okay.

But it is uncommon. So we can kind of ask this another way let me see here would that make me like a hipster kind of like you know because i'm not quite like you know as as like cliche and normal as the rest of you i'm like yeah whatever yeah well we could pivot it oh so we could say like if you tell me you're using postgres we could try to guess what language you're using and this is not really a fair question because a lot of it, you know, you'd have to also say, like, what's the popular language? But if you had to guess Postgres SQL, what language is uses relatively more Postgres than any other language? Python.

See here, 16 percent. That's not a bad answer. Would you believe the answer is ruby oh it was a very strong correlation 90 between ruby and postgres okay russ is up there too 65 well we'll do a couple more um go what database you think? Say the databases again. MySQL, Postgres, Redis, SQLite, Mongo, Maria,

MSSQL, or SQL Server, Oracle Database. Go? I'm either going Redis or Mongo. Good call. Redis is number one. It was 96%, and Mongo is 41%. Yep.

If you're using Go, then you are relatively much less likely to be using SQL Server or Oracle. That makes sense. Yep. So let's see if there's anything else particularly interesting here. Let's see. If you're Swift, it'slite again because of the is uh what do you think about uh typescript oh um probably sqlite see uh slightly less there oh man, I'm horrible at this. TypeScript, you said? Yep. I'm going to go MySQL. So in this case, it's actually, you're more likely to be using Mongo relatively.

It's so hard, I don't even know how to say it. Yeah, because it's object storage, basically. Yep. You just store the JavaScript objects. What about PHP? Oh, MySQL, all day long, not even a question yeah so it's it's much higher it's 48 higher uh more likely to be using you know compared to the average however uh maria db 117 really that was the only other one that was which is a port of my sequel i mean

that's yeah fork of it so you can see like there's some part of the community that's... Yep, fork of it. So it's kind of interesting to see there's some part of the community that's a PHP that uses Maria at a much higher percentage than any other language. That's for the secure WordPress sites. Yep. For the good ones. That's right.

Yeah, so now you can look at this section. And yeah, the database stuff is otherwise pretty much in line with uh what we've seen in other places i'm surprised to see my sequel so high but now that we know that the survey was you know like did some waiting to try and kind of balance things out that makes more sense to me because i just i don't really think about my sql and jet range products together i mean you know data grip can amazing things, so I'm not going to hold it against you. You want to use

DataGrip to connect to your MySQL database, go for it. Yeah, it's all about it. So, DevOps section. They got an interesting graph. I took note of it. Are we allowed to look again now, or are we still okay?

Yep, yep. There was something I thought was interesting about the uh how familiar you are with docker but oh yeah okay here we go so uh 26 said i know what docker is but haven't used it uh and other than that though um yeah never mind i don't know what i thought was interesting here if you're back in developer you're much more likely to have interacted with docker 88 compared to 65 on front end no real big surprise there uh i like this one though they call out they have a little set aside here it says devops engineers are two times more likely to be architects and 30% more likely to be leads.

Oh, wow. Yeah. What does that tell you? Is it DevOps people, people who've gotten there, or maybe early adopters, or maybe they're, you know, I don't know what it is, but there's some correlation there. I would think that, you know, it's because you have a bigger picture like you have a better idea big picture of what's going on you're not focused on just that one thing how the entire system interacts yeah it's a it's definitely an overarching role so i think the takeaway here this should have been in our devops handbook is like you want to make more money, get into DevOps.

Become a DevOps engineer. Wait, no. Make it part of your culture. Wait. Dang it, Alan. I see what you did. Tricked me. I don't like this anymore.

Can we redo? You're listening to Coding Box, episode 164. Sorry. It's not in this section, but in the miscellaneous section, there was another correlation that you might be interested in. If you do DevOps, you're more likely to have more Ram and just better computers. That makes sense.

It's nice to be. So is it nice to be in DevOps because you get a better computer or is it crappy to be in DevOps because you need a better, because you're trying to run the entire data center on your laptop right exactly so they're like okay well we'll give you enough power to power the sun and we're going to filter it into this i9 mac you got here and as soon as you turn it on it's going to melt so go you go put it in your freezer of your refrigerator to turn it on. Yep. And Dan has some pretty funny stuff.

So basically, if you want more RAM, you should be DevOps, an architect, a data analyst, a lead, or a CEO. It just sounds like DevOps is the way. And if you want things to go good for you, you need to be in a DevOps. And therefore, we just make it a cultural thing. And now I've won. I beat Alan. Well, yeah, here's another good stuff for you. So, solid-state drive, 80% now.

So, 80% of the developers in Resonda said they have it. But if you work with Kubernetes, 90%. And again, you're more likely to have more than average RAM. I mean, I don't care what kind of development you're doing. If you're not on an SSD, you officially have, I feel for you. Because, especially, I mean, you say do it

and that's a case if you're able to control your own destiny because you're a contractor or whatever and you can buy your own equipment. But if, if your employer, you know, if you're in an employment situation,

like the majority of the world and your employer isn't yet providing you with an SSD, like, Oh man, I feel for you. Cause that sounds awful. I mean, even a slow SSD is light years better than a spinning drive.

Yeah. Yep. I would, I would honestly ask him, I like just if, what if I provide my own, what if I give you an SSD and I'm like, Merry Christmas,

will you install this in my computer? You can keep it when I leave. Right. Okay. Well, uh, here's a, here's a fun insight.

Um, Kubernetes dead. What? It's leveled out.'ve hit peak so they went from 16% to 29% of developers working with Kubernetes from 2018 2019 then it rose to 40%

in 2020 and it stayed there in 2021 so maybe we've hit peak Kubernetes wait am I looking at the same one where it's like what container orchestration services do you use in kubernetes is it 37 am i looking at the wrong thing i was looking at the they have a little note to the side there until this year oh i see it but it is next to that graph, so now I'm wondering about it. Oh, yeah. I don't know.

That's weird. Oh, it just says it stopped increasing. Yeah. But they don't call out that it went down. Right. So this is awkward. I'm not sure. They do have a link. So they publish the raw data every year, but they haven't published it yet for 21.

They're still doing some scrubbing on it, I guess. They do have a coming soon banner. So maybe we can kind of look and see exactly where they got that from. This is weird though too, that like they break apart like Kubernetes versus Amazon EKS, which is Amazon's Kubernetes. So that's an awkward distinction to make because then like, you know,

well, why didn't you break apart like Azure's Kubernetes environment or Google's GKE environment or, uh, you know, Linodes or whoever else's right. Like, uh,

it just seems like a weird distinction to break out that one kubernetes provider and not just bake it in because if you did bake it in like this is where that other that other one where the question was weird and the results didn't add up to 100 because they had like you know looked like some of them were like both kind of thing. Like Amazon EKS is 7% and Kubernetes is 37. So if I add those up, then, you know, obviously I'm at 44%. So that would be an increase, right? But maybe they also had those separated

for some reason last year too. I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to really say. One thing I did see is interesting is for hosting, they said 53% were in the cloud. So I thought that was pretty interesting. So, you know,

so we're half. Wait, where's the other 47% of the internet being hosted from? Their basement? Private servers was 51%. Where's the other 47% of the internet being hosted from? Their basement? Private servers was 51%, which is also over half.

So this is one of those that adds up to more than 100%. 46% is locally, so in a closet. 1% is other, so I don't know. Somebody else's house? I don't know. Somebody else's house. I don't know. I mean, I question like that large percentage that's hosting it themselves. Like, are they referring to Google and Google employees were like,

well, even though we have our own cloud, I guess I can't count that as that because that is us. You know what I mean? Like I, okay, we'll move on. What's kind of funny about them from the if they got a little

comparison you can easily do between 2020 and 2021 here uh what's interesting is all of the percentages except for other went up so last year clouds went uh went from 51 to 53 private went from 49 to 51 and locally went from 44% to 46%. So everyone's just, what that tells us is that hybrid has become more popular in 2021 because everything went up except for other. Yeah. I mean,

I wonder if they're counting that, like if you're doing hosting locally, but it's in like, cause you have your own Kubernetes cluster in your own data center. Right. I mean, you're still taking advantage of like cloud like technologies in that case. Right.

And you're doing things in a cloud like way. You're just, you happen to be the provider of the cloud at that point. Yeah. Here's the one that you're, that you're really going to buck at okay bring it which cloud services do you use you want to guess what's number one you're already looking i mean really is i mean who's going to take down amazon okay yeah so 64 for amazon and if you ask devops engineers even higher, it's 71%. Who's number two?

Yeah, I saw what you put in the notes, so I'm not going to say, but it's surprising to me. Yeah. So they've got number two as Google Cloud Platform, which, I mean, that's what I use, but that's so far from everything I've ever heard. Amazon, yeah, and everything I've ever heard has had Azure as number two by a big lead. Yeah, like massive, massive lead.

So I feel like there's something wrong with the survey there. I agree, too, because if you look at this, I mean, look, they're saying Amazon Web Services is 64 percent, GCP 25, Azure 22. So not much of a difference. Yeah. And then DigitalOcean is not very much further behind at 15 percent. And I find that hard to believe in terms of, you know, real cloud adoption. Well, no, okay, because if you're talking about, like, if the people that you're asking the question to and they're answering the point from their personal perspectives, right,

not what they use at work, but what they use for themselves, right, then you might say, like, well, I use DigitalOcean for my stuff or I use a Lin use for themselves, right? Then you might say like, well, I use Digital Ocean for my stuff or I use a Linode or whatever, right? Or, you know, even GCP has a lot of, a lot of, I remember like there for a while, like Google was really pushing a lot of free stuff with GCP and Microsoft is too with like, you can get Azure credits. Like, I mean, if you're using Visual Studio products, chances are you already have Azure credits that you might not even realize. And Google does that stuff, similar stuff all the time too, where they're just giving away credits. So those kinds of answers make sense. If it's coming from the perspective of like,

you know, if the respondents were answering it in the mindset of this is what I do myself personally, not answering it from the point of view of what is my, uh, work, you know, what is, what do I have? What I use professionally. Yeah. I don't know. But that whole context that you're throwing out there would also color every single other thing that we've talked about so far. Right. Like it, it would, it would change a lot of stuff. So I don't, I don't know. Would it, I mean like one of them was like, what are you going to learn? Right? Like where, where are your interest in learning? That's not necessarily because of professional,

it's just where you want to go in your career. Right? So, I mean, I see your point, but I'm, I'm just trying to like, if I put that, if I put those rose colored glasses on to view this, then it makes sense. And even Amazon being as popular as it does still makes sense because there's a lot of good reason, because it is such a popular one, there's still a lot of good reason to go target your in your free time to understand it and learn it so i did go back and look at last year and the same they had google's number two i looked back at 2019 the same with google being number two ahead of azure and one thing they do say is um they found that google cloud platform their share of developers using them for cloud is much higher with people doing Kubernetes. And I don't call that out for 2021, but they do say here specifically is like we see more Kubernetes adoption for people using GCP. And to say it another way, if you're using Kubernetes, you're more likely to be on Google Cloud than some of these other platforms and someone.

I think that makes sense too, though, right mean google made kubernetes so you know there's it it makes a lot of sense to me like well why wouldn't you use like if you were already going to invest your time into kubernetes why wouldn't you use google yeah you know unless you have like a strong reason to stay because you know you have free azure credits for example or whatever unless you have like a strong reason to stay, cause you know, you have free Azure credits for example, or whatever, or you're like already baked so heavily into the Microsoft world that you wanted to stay there. Like I can see using, uh, Google for that reason. Uh, here's a, here's another way to look at it. So, uh, you know, typically you hear AWS number one, uh, Azure number two, and like, they're even kind of close. Is it possible that articles that I'm searching for right now, looking at it, a lot of them compare based on revenue.

Yes. Is it possible that there are more developers using GCP, but less money being spent there? And maybe part of that has to do with Firebase and these Google services that are written around mobile and Android and stuff. So maybe people are using GCP because it kind of comes along bundled with some of the stuff, but all they're doing is paying for a little bit of a no SQL database. Yeah, that's possible. I was actually looking just what you were talking about with buy revenue.

And there's an article on park, my cloud.com. I don't know exactly. I guess they're getting their numbers from different reporting when Amazon has to report and all that. But it looks like AWS reported revenue of $13.5 billion for Q1 2021. For a quarter.

For a quarter. Which, by the way, that's all the freaking vms and stuff that everybody forgot to turn off um yeah uh and then it looks like if what i'm seeing here and it's hard to say from the way that they've written it but azure grew to 15.1 billion, so even more. And then Google Cloud, they're showing, for the same quarter, was 4.047 billion. So it's like a third of the other two.

Yeah. And Azure's even number one there. Yeah. In terms of revenue. Based on spend. In terms of revenue, right. For a quarter. In terms of revenue, right. Maybe not usage, but revenue per quarter. It looks like the Azure's got a slight lead over AWS and they're both kicking GCP's tail

in terms of just money coming in. This would be a weird reason, but just because of like, what was that project that the Defense Department had? The Jedi Project, I think is what they called it. And like really all of the competition was between Amazon and Microsoft. You never heard Google come up in that. So just from that alone would be reason for me to suspect that,

okay, number one position is Amazon, number two is Azure. And then there's everybody else but it really is a good point though of you know just because more money's going in there doesn't mean that it's being used more by by developers or being adopted by a devil it's it's interesting it's definitely interesting maybe one company knows how to price their product better and that's and that's very possible or they bundle it or sell it better. I wouldn't be surprised if some of this stuff comes along when you get Office 365 stuff. People buy into that because, for instance, you can get information about your security and your Office 365 subscription using their cloud services.

So it kind of depends on buying into the ecosystem. So yeah, or like if you're in Office 365, then, you know, having Azure Active Directory makes a lot of sense, you know? Right. So yeah, this is actually pretty insightful. You could bundle your cloud service with Word word 2021, a professional edition, you know, microservice edition, microservice edition. Speaking of,

isn't that what we have next here? Yeah. So wow. Get ready for another, another big surprise. What a segue. 35% of respondents said they're developing microservices. Do they know what microservices really are?

That's why I got to wonder. You see the Kubernetes numbers and you're thinking, okay, people are definitely running multiple services. Maybe they're counting that as microservices. Maybe there's some confusion about that term. I don't know. It seems crazy to me. I truly It seems crazy to me. Yeah. That, that I, I truly question whether or not people are calling it what it really is. Like when did the microservices term start? Oh man,

it's been over a decade. Yeah, it's been a while. Okay. Okay. So this is going to say like, I have a hard time thinking that 35% of developers are working on code that was started in the last five years, even, you know,

you know, I mean, I guess technically it's so hard, right? Like if you're talking about microservice architectures done with cues and all that kind of stuff, like I, I, man, maybe, maybe we're wrong. Maybe it's a bunch of people writing scalable platforms um i don't know maybe it is i well okay so here let's let's look at the top five uh languages for uh microservices java okay fine then you know i'll buy that javascripts like oh yeah okay you know it's okay to write, okay. It's okay to write lightweight. It's easy to write lightweight things. Python? Sure.

SQL? Dang it. Get out of here. Alright, fine. PHP. Who's writing PHP microservices? I mean, don't go offending anybody. What's wrong with you?

But honestly, but, but wait a second. Even SQL as a microservice seems off. Yeah. It seems like a weird quirk of the survey where maybe they said like, you know, what's your primary language?

And someone picks SQL and they said, are you doing microservices? I said, yeah. So maybe that's how they got there. Yeah. It doesn't feel right. I honestly, even JavaScript is microservice doesn't feel necessarily right.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen. You can totally do it, but it doesn't feel like the – I don't know. It doesn't feel right. Well, TypeScript is number six. So there's more girls like, no one's doing it. Okay, no one's writing a service, a microservice in TypeScript. Not yet. I mean, where do they call in a service is the question.

That's the question. Exactly. Yeah. That's the only thing I think of is that people say, yeah, we got a couple of costs. We got a couple of services, you know, some Amazon web services. So I mean, pretty small. Because like, like when I think of a, when I think of a service, like you don't know implementation details like SQL, like you're going to make like a rest call, for example, maybe, uh, you know, and, and you're going to like post something and get back a result, but you don't know like, oh, I'm opening a database connection to this SQL thing. And I know what version of that date,

like that seems like way too many details to know that. Dude, this is where, yeah, I don't know. This is where I call baloney on some of this stuff. So down further on the, you heard it here first.

Alan has called baloney. Like what approaches do you use in your system design? 88% of people said microservices. Yeah, that's one of my approaches. I don't buy it. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's, don't knock it, man. It's one

of the approaches they look at. They're like, okay, here's all the possible ways we could do this. Microservices want to, you know what? Let's forget the microservices. Let's move on. we've gotten it out of our way yeah i don't know yeah i don't know yeah i have a tough time with that i think honestly people are mixing up service-oriented architecture with microservices is what i think is happening here yeah Because service-oriented architecture is listed as number two here. So it dropped from 88% using microservices to 35% doing the SOA. Yeah.

I just, I'm struggling with that. Yeah. They have a quote in here too, talking about how they expect microservices to rise in popularity over the next couple of years. So if he thought this was a fad that was going to go away, well,

they may not be using it right. It's going up from 88% to 92% next year. Yeah. And it is 53% of microservice developers have more than six years of professional experience. I don't doubt that. Yeah.

So, you know, they should know. Before, okay, well, I want to give you a chance because I do see we have another bullet point here on the microservices. But before we move on to the next one, I do want to have a moment to interject something. So were we going to cover that one? I was just going to say, so they do cover they talk about the different kind of protocols

and they had GraphQL at 14% which... Oh, careful. You're going to hurt Ellen. Oh, well we talked about I kind of asked the question a couple episodes ago like, what's going on with what's going on with GraphQL? Is it going up or going down?

Yeah, yeah. And I will say it was 12% last year. See, it went up. Man, that was so close. I was so afraid. Alan already called baloney, so we don't even know what's possible next. That's right. Hey, I think it went up. I mean, if we're just doing percentages,

even though it went up to 14%, it went up almost 15%. I mean, that's pretty good. I mean, it wasn't even on 2019. I'm not sure you understand math. Hey, 15% of 14% is about 2%, I think. So I think it went up about 15%. That's what I'm saying.

You can't have percents of percents. Hey, that's how you make yourself right in any conversation is you just start working with percentages, right? Yeah. 100% more people got sick this week. Wait, how many got sick last week? One. Well, it doesn't matter that there's only two. There's 100% more people sick this week.

You bring fractions into the conversation. I'm out. Yeah, it jacks everything up. Well, that's going to screw up two-thirds of this conversation, Joe. That's right. 66% of this conversation is based on it. All right. Well, what I did want to say was kind of like backing up for a moment on the cloud service thing.

We didn't call this out, and I don't know if you noticed this, but there was a section on here of the the, the usage of cloud services, depending on company size. And so that could have been a sway on some of those questions. Cause like there's a column of just me versus companies where it was like, you know, two to 10 people or 11 to 50, et cetera, or, you know, and so depending on, if you look at that number, it paints a totally different number because then for companies that are, you know, we'll say that more than 5000, right? Then it's 48% Amazon and Azure is 24% in second place and Google Cloud is then 10% and everybody else trails off after that. So,

you know, depending on the size of the company, even if you were to go like in the 50, I'm sorry, in the 500 to a thousand, uh, employee size company, it's 55% for Amazon,

15 for Azure and 11 for Google. So in every, every one of those scenarios, it's Amazon, uh, 11 for Google. So in every one of those scenarios, it's Amazon, Microsoft, Google. It's when you start getting to the smaller numbers where it's like, hey, it's just me. Then that's where you start to see it get to be more interesting

to where it's like 30% Amazon, 14% Google, and 7% Microsoft. Okay. And that's also where DigitalOcean really spikes too, by the way. Right. They jump to 21% in that scenario when it's just me, which goes back to my point earlier of depending on the context of how you're answering the question.

So the point is JetBrains did cover that. So does that mean that the startups today are maybe using GCP more than AWS? Does that mean the next generation's Facebook, Netflix, whatever, Microsoft? Maybe Google's investment into Kubernetes is going to be paying huge dividends in 10 years. You know, who knows? Maybe not. I don't know. Yeah.

I mean, we've kind of talked about Kubernetes in the past as it was like it was Google's way of kicking the kicking the chair out from underneath Amazon. Right. Like they were so late to the game and it was like, hey, what if we just like abstract away all of the infrastructure so we don't care about your specific services like what amazon's providing and we can it's our way of leveling the playing field right yeah and so yeah to your point maybe it is kicking off because there was the rise in kubernetes but depending on how you decide to do the math maybe it wasn't to rise it was just you know constant yeah at any rate i thought that was worth calling out so yeah we can go on that's good it's really good uh so it just uh there's a big miscellaneous section that asks all sorts of different questions but one i thought was pretty interesting is how

old is the computer used most often and two years old was 32 percent but it was it was a kind of a you know decent size kind of distribution, you know, where like less than a year old is 20%, three years old is 18, four years old is only 9%, which isn't too bad. But then there's a big jump here at more than four years old,

which goes to 18%, which I don't know, you know, maybe I don't know what the deal is there, but I hate to hear that. Cause you know, just thinking of developers being on 10 year what the deal is there, but I hate to hear that. Cause you know, just thinking of developers being on 10 year old machines, whatever,

like I'd like to fix that. Yeah. You know, that's depending on your area of the world and you know, whatever, like the company you work for, I mean, I have a lot of control over that.

I may not just be feasible, but I would like for everyone to have new, beautiful computers. And it goes back to our SSD conversation, right? Like, you know if the respondents who said uh they're on a spinning hard drive are likely in that category

then yeah i mean my personal laptop is eight years old and it's still doing pretty good the battery is not so good now yeah but uh same like i i don't even remember how old my mac is that mac is now it's like uh i always forget because it's like. Yours is a 2012. Yeah, because yours is an 11. A 2011, yeah. Mine's a 13. So there you go, 11, 12, 13.

And mine's the same situation as yours, Joe, where like the battery not so hot these days, but it still works. And to its credit, because Apple stopped supporting it officially in terms of updates and whatnot, so I just used that as an excuse to put Ubuntu on it. And so that's the primary operating system on it now. Yep. And the battery is the thing that's... I would love to replace the battery, but I can't.

Yeah, that's the problem. Well, even if you wanted to, it's not a matter of you yourself being able to do it. It's like, where are you going to find a new battery for that old technology? Yeah. That's not going to happen. On his year, he technically can't do it, I think. Right? No, you can.

It's that whole process where you've got to heat it up to soften the glue that's holding it in. I'm not doing that. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's not a matter where you got to like heat it up to soften the glue. It's holding. I'm not doing that. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, it's not a matter of you technically doing it. It like, cause you could technically like there are services that do that sort of

thing. Right. It's a matter of even just being able to buy the battery that would, that would work for it. That would not be, that's not a battery that's been sitting on a shelf for the last five years. Yeah. True.

So one other section I thought that was interesting was just testing. 75% of all respondents say that it plays an integral role in their development. Awesome. But 44% of respondents say they're involved in that testing. So somebody's doing it, just not them. Yeah. So, you know, QA or something like that, which is, you know, nothing wrong with QA. QA is great.

But it just, I was like, when I first saw that number, I was like, oh, yay. You know, finally the revolution. But not quite. So, yeah, 44% are even involved in the testing. And they go on to say different types of tests so while unit tests are up at 67 percent which is odd with

the number we just mentioned before and then it kind of tails off down there integrations 48 percent and then 33 percent which those are all really good numbers I didn't expect to see in

that high so for who writes unit tests 50 57 percent say I write unit tests nice yeah i'm having to see the 33 end to end yeah okay that's pretty that's pretty good i mean that's always been like the difficulty you know even in my own like kind of like mindset when I think about like, hey, okay, like unit tests, super simple to implement. But then it's like, okay, well, I mean, there's only been so much you can do, right? So then it's like, yeah, okay, technically I can write some integration tests if I want to like, you know, run them explicitly or whatever. But in an end test, then I think more in terms of like,

Oh, well like for a web app, for example, you know, like maybe that's where you would, it doesn't have to be Cypress, you know, cause technically you could do a lot of JavaScript unit tests too. But like,

I kind of think in like that kind of a world where, you know, you have some kind of driver that be at Cypress or whatever, um, ask for help if you're using Selenium, uh, then, you know, but you know what I'm saying though? Like you need something to like do the driving that, that would have that, uh, you know, you already have an environment up and running, but that's where it's like the 33%, like the orchestration of spinning up that environment to be able to do an end to end

test, like on the fly. Like I keep thinking back to like the, the DevOps handbook and the Phoenix project. Right. And the, like the dream, the utopia of like, Hey, you know,

you submitted your pull request and now I'm going to go spin up a brand new environment. And now I'm going to run your test. I'm going to run through like not only the unit test, but the integration test, but I'm going to run through a set of end to end integration tests just to make sure that like everything works. Cause they had talked about like in, in those books about like how you'd have like your fast running tests and your slower running tests and whatnot. And, but yet you're going to do all those. Right. And it sounds like a great utopia. And so it's really happy to see that. Like,

well, apparently others have figured this out. Cause you know, a third of the respondents, that's, you know, over 10,000 people that responded in the affirmative of we're doing end to end. Right.

I want to work with those people. No, just kidding. Yeah. Have you seen it? So, well, I mean,

that was pretty much it for the highlights. It definitely didn't cover a lot we'll have links copious links to the show notes different sections things we talked about so yeah and I'll also have links to things like other surveys we compared to like the Octoverse

and Stack Overflow for example all right well with that we head into Alan's favorite portion of the show it's the tip of the week all right and it looks like i'm going first here so this one uh comes from um morali which i don't know m suryar on slack i don't know how you say that but uh he recommended a podcast to me that i now love and it's an interview podcast, which I typically don't like. But the interviewer does a really good job of kind of crafting a narrative.

So it almost feels like a Terry Gross interviewer, like an NPR style interviewer. They have like a narrative. So it's really focused on like a story. And this particular tip of the week, I want to emphasize for michael outlaw because i think michael outlaw is going to particularly enjoy this show and specifically the the episode that uh rally recommended was uh with the author of sequel light and i did not know it had such an interesting person behind it but also just a story of like how it came to be and the rigorous amounts of testing that they go through uh the the spoiler alert the guy ends up buying a book on

software testing for airplanes and uh there's like some government standards and whatnot and he goes through and makes sequel light compliant with you know that level of testing and so uh took it very seriously and just the whole whole story of like how it came to be and how it got to be so popular and like him being kind of a solo developer, open source and having, you know, like Motorola and stuff saying, hey, we're thinking about putting on this phone,

on our phones. Can you support it? And he's like, yeah, sure, $80,000. And then, you know, he's got something that he thought was like, you know, pretty much near bug free. And suddenly when it's on a million devices, 12 million,

a hundred million devices, you know, find some bugs. And so his quest, he went on this like really difficult, ambitious quest to basically, you know, get a bug free.

And it was just really great episode. Some other great episodes. I really like, I've gone through maybe 20 of them now. CVS and, or sorry, Subversion actually. They got one of the people that did a lot of work on Subversion and specifically going from CVS to Subversion, talking about the different models. And it's like very in-depth details on moving from, you know, CVS, which is kind of based around like local changes and the way the database and the files were stored to CVS. Jeez, keep doing that.

It's a subversion, which had a client-server model and how network transparency was really important and getting that from one version to the next. And of course, Git comes through and changes the whole world. And so just hearing that author's perspective on how CVS just like just totally took over cvs and like a blink of a you know a couple years it became the predominant uh platform and then a few years later the same thing happened to it again with git and so just to hear his perspective on it and the things that it did differently and how it like related to decisions that he had to make

about subversion and how that played out in git and seeing you know what worked and what didn't was really interesting it's been so long since i've thought about CVS in terms of version control that every time you said it just now, I would immediately think of places like Walgreens or Eckerd's. I think you're using that wrong, right? That word doesn't mean what you think it means. You know what's funny is, when you used CVS, I don't know if you ever used it, but going to Subversion was like it was nothing because it basically felt the same it acted

the same the commands were nearly the same the only difference is one was on a network and one wasn't so uh you know it just made things a lot easier so am i the weirdo between the three of us that had mercurial in between there they talk about a little bit i used it a little bit i really liked this i thought it was more consistent than uh than get well i wasn't gonna go there with it but yeah i know it's not it's not known for its consistency it's like the perfect system for you know linux branching and stuff but yeah so great episode and i'll one more i had to throw out there. I'm a big fan of Programming Throwdown podcast.

They actually had one of the guys, Jason, and they didn't even mention the podcast. I heard the person's voice and I'm like, oh, that's Programming Throwdown. And then at the very end of the episode, it's like, hey, you should also check out the podcast. But right from the get-go, I'm like, that's him. I know it's him. And I was on a bicycle so I wasn't Googling for it. But I'm like,

the whole time, I'm like, that's him, right know it's him. And I was like on a bicycle. So, you know, I wasn't like Googling for it. But I'm like, the whole time I'm like, that's him, right? That's him. It was. So, yeah. Oh, and I have one more. Sorry. Another podcast. So, I'm giving it away.

So, you know, I'm telling you all about other podcasts today. Software Engineering Daily. We've mentioned many times person-designed interviews with people from all over the place, different technologies, and releases every day. Well, the author, Jeff, wrote a book about Facebook engineering. And if you listen to the show, you know that there was a long period of time where he just interviewed a ton of Facebook employees, like back to back to back for many months. They're just sprinkled throughout. Well, he wrote a book about their engineering culture and the way they kind of developed uh over the years and uh it was like i thought surprisingly insightful like i you know it was like knew they're going to talk

about react i thought they're going to talk about you know presto and graphq and some of the other things it was really more about the culture and uh the way the company evolved and adapted to to these different kind of technological challenges. Because you remember, like, at the time Facebook was, you know, first came out, mobile first development didn't exist. You know, mobile phones, as we know them today, smartphones didn't exist. They changed their entire company to basically be a mobile first company.

And it really paid off. But several things had to happen in order to make that happen like you know with the the mobile um release cycle is like you know especially back in when things first came out uh you had to submit to the app store there were like soak tests and he says you couldn't roll out multiple changes uh every day and that's what facebook was used to you know move fast and break things right so then when they pivoted to be a mobile company, it wasn't just the technology that changed. It was their whole business process, their whole business, their whole, like, kind of soul of the company ran into this brick wall. And how they got around it is really interesting. And that's, you know, essentially how React came to be and React Native because it's this whole different methodology where you kind of deliver this tiny little app

and then dynamically throw the data in in order to kind of render. And so that's how they kind of subverted the whole process there and able to kind of keep the soul of the company alive. And I mean, that was a risky bet. And they just really go into it. It's like two, three hour book. And he released it for free on the podcast. He ran into some problems with Audible getting it submitted.

So he was like, screw it. I'm just going to release it. And he even threw a bonus music album on the end of it. So you can go listen to it. Yeah, great guy. So you can go listen to the book and then listen to the album that he kind of wrote around the time he was putting the book together. But it was really good. And so I,

I really enjoyed that. And we've got a link there and it's free. Very cool. All right. So, uh, I have a silly one and, uh,

but you know, bear with me for a moment because this one is, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to provide a link to it, how to take a screenshot on your Mac. And you may be thinking about Michael, I know how to do a link to it, how to take a screenshot on your Mac. And you may be thinking, but Michael, I know how to do this.

So, but the reason why I call this out is because like I've always done screenshots on the Mac in one of two ways. I've always done like a shift command four and then I'll like drag and get the area that I want or I'll press the space bar afterwards. And then that way, the mouse icon turns into a camera. And it can take the window.

And whatever window you're going to take in doesn't necessarily have to be the foreground window. But whatever window you're going to take the screenshot of, it'll let you you know, let you know, cause it'll give like a blue treatment, a blue hue over that window. And so those are the two that I've always used. And I'd forgotten, um, cause this somehow came up. I forget what, because we were talking about how, uh, with some coworkers about how, uh, on Mac there's the, um, uh's the screenshot app. And so by default, when you do one of those two options that I just said, then the bottom right-hand corner, you'll see a preview of it. And you can click on it then.

And if you wanted to immediately copy it to do something else with it or to annotate it or whatever you can. And if you're like, nope, I'm done with this thing, you can also click on the trash can. But otherwise, if you did nothing, then it's going to save. And by default, it goes to your, uh, your, your, your desktop, unless you change that in the, um, unless you change the default right location, uh, in the screenshot app. But the, the one that I didn't know in there, and when we got into this conversation that I thought thought like, oh, man, that one's super cool. And I have now been using it all the time was because what I would do before when I would do that, you know, command shift four or command shift four space.

And, you know, the little snap preview would show up in the bottom right-hand corner for the screenshot app. And I would open that up, immediately copy it, and then hit the trash can button to delete it. And then I'd get to paste it. Turns out I didn't have to do all that. If after you press your command shift four or command shift four space bar, if you hold the control key as you're doing the mouse, the corresponding mouse action for whichever one is your appropriate thing, then it doesn't give you that preview in the bottom right-hand corner at all. And it will not allow you to annotate it, and it won't bother trying to save it to your desktop. Instead, it just immediately just copies it directly to your clipboard. And then from there, you can just paste it wherever you want, which is often what I find myself wanting to do. But now I know that like, you know, for those times that I do want to annotate it, maybe fine, I won't press control. And for the times that I, I do, I don't care to annotate it, then I will press control. And there's also like, you know, the, another version for command shift three, where you could take like the entire, uh, desktop instead of just a single

window or a portion of it. But, uh, it was really that, that control part press, you know, pressing the control key that I was like, Oh yeah, I didn't, I didn't know that was a thing. So really cool. I didn't know that either. I've always done exactly what you said, save it, then go copy it. And yeah. And now I'm like feeling so silly. Cause I'm like, oh yeah, of course they, they must've had like a difference for that. So yeah. And it turns out they did. Um, and then the other thing that I thought that I would just, this isn't like a necessarily a tip, uh, you know, that, that to link to anywhere, but just like, maybe just a general rule of like how you should

go about like decision makings and whatnot in your day to day. But like, you know, I put here in the notes like data, data, data, like let the data guide your decisions, not based on feelings. And so where I come from with that is that, you know, some peers and I, we were, we were having this conversation and it was like, well, I think that this is going to be the way it is. And I feel like this is going to be, you know, uh, the right decision and that, um, it's, you know, this is probably going to be, uh, you know, the heavy use case, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And so there were a lot of things that I just said there that were kind of loaded, like probably I feel like, or I think this blah, blah, blah. You know, those types of, those types of, uh, phrases in your conversations, you know, should be like, um, you know, they, they should, they should call out to you like, Hey, wait a minute. Are we, are we basing this on the right thing? Then if we're saying I think, or I feel, or it's probably, or to you like, hey, wait a minute, are we basing this on the right thing then if we're saying I think or I feel or it's probably or phrases like that? And instead, what I proposed was like, well, hey, let's just quantify this thing and let's actually see

how big of an issue is it? Maybe we'll find that it's a much larger issue than we even imagined it was. Or maybe we find that it doesn't matter at all. Or maybe we find that it is just this one case. And in our case, what we ended up finding was it was a much larger issue in total once we started doing the math to attribute it across all of the different, that particular problem, once we started like applying it to all the different places where it happened, you know, we could quantify it and see like, oh, it's actually a much bigger problem than we realized. And even if we did solve it for this one very specific thing, it's still going to like rear its ugly head and all these other use cases. And so, you know, when possible quantify. Yeah. Measure. Don't guess. Yeah. Excellent. All right. So this next one is kind of goes along

with the, the video that I did on YouTube about how to do HTTP and REST requests in Visual Studio that was based off Joe Zach's previous tip. This I learned from a spring course and I thought it was pretty cool. There is a thing called HTTP, HTTPI, we'll call it, and it's HTTPIE.io. and if you go there this is like a curl alternative for the command line so if you were to install this thing it gives you a lot of features of curl except way easier and with support for syntax highlighting and that kind of stuff so if you install this thing instead of having to do a curl, um, post dash something, dash something else to get this stuff, you can just type in HTTPS space and then the URL and then run it. And it will send you back the response from the server. Um, they have all kinds

of different things on here, like different ways that you can post these things, how you can pass in the headers, how you can pass in the body and all that kind of stuff. You can do it from files. You can do it directly from the commands that you want to enter. So super easy, a really concise way to, again, be able to do HTTP or REST type request directly from the command line in a much more concise and readable way. So I'd say give that a shot if you do a lot of stuff from the command line.

We should call out, too, though, that it's a very less friendly Windows version than it is for the other platforms from the looks of it. Just simply from the install perspective, because would it's a pip install for windows so it's python huh yeah yeah and so i call it out because like that might be uh you know for some for some windows users that might be a showstopper but if that's the case and you're on windows, then you likely have access to WSL if you aren't already using it. And, you know,

I mean, there was that question from Jebra in the survey, so maybe you haven't already used it or maybe you were the ones that provided other, and this is what you meant. And Hey, let's, let's be real.

You know, we've talked about this in the past, just freaking running in Docker, like get a Docker image with Python in it and then do the pip install in there. And you're good to go. Well, you wouldn't even need that.

If you're going to do a Docker, you can just Docker and then a Docker run a boon to, and then app get install a HTTP pie or HTTP. No, there you go. You can do that too. Don't eat. Yeah.

Don't even need the Python. Good call. Yeah. No, there you go. You can do that too. Don't eat. Yeah. Don't even need the Python. Good call. Yeah. Just, uh, maybe even Alpine would be good enough. Not sure, but yeah,

so this, this looked really cool. It's kind of a pain for, um, for files. So if you're like putting up files or anything and you like, I don't know, I don't,

I don't love it. Like you have to map volumes and stuff. The doctor for Docker. Yeah. But I wouldn't do it. You have to map volumes and stuff. Oh, for Docker. Yeah, but I wouldn't do it if I had to do it through Docker. I mean, if I was on Windows. Huh? I'm sorry. I was going to say, like, if I was on Windows, I would just WSL it.

Yeah, I would do that before I would Docker it. Yeah, good call. I Docker everything. I don't like to install anything anymore. So for a command line tool that I want to use for ad hoc stuff, I just don't remember docker run. I guess you could write a script around

it, but... I'm with Jay-Z on this one. For a command that I'm going to run all the time, I would install it, but I would install it in my WSL instance on Windows. Yeah, I like that. I like that approach better.

I'd rather do that than install Python and have a global Python that I'm going to then install some other package. I would do WSL, then I would do Docker before I'd install Python just to install this tool. Right. Especially because virtual environments are just trash. Yes, sir. Oh, man. Yes, sir. I walked right into that. I'm kidding. Do not me. I'm kidding. right yeah especially because uh virtual environments are just trash yes sir oh man i'm kidding do not mean i'm kidding so that's at joe and at alan on slack and you can send your complaints there and uh yeah i think with that we've broken the internet and um you know there was some stuff that i didn't say at the front of the show because

joe won't let me anymore but i'll take this opportunity to say it now and if you haven't already subscribed to us uh you can find uh us on itunes or spotify or stitcher wherever you like to find your podcasts uh we probably there oh audible is a good call out for example and uh you know like i said not like those weirdos tried to say it earlier, but like I said it in a normal voice earlier, if you haven't already left us a review, we would greatly appreciate it. If you did, um, you can find some helpful links at www.codingblocks.net slash review. And if you have left us a review on like maybe one platform, uh, but not another, and you're feeling generous, we also greatly appreciate reading

those. So we've definitely had people over the years that have left reviews on multiple platforms and it puts a smile on our face like it's the first time every time. So we appreciate it. Yep. And hey, while you're up there at CodingBlocks.net, definitely check out the show notes. I mean, they are copious. They, they are a good reference point to go back and be like, they talked about something in the show. I don't want to have to go skim through the whole show again. They're probably in the show notes there. So go check those out and make sure you send any questions, feedback, rants, whatever to our Slack channel. If you want to join that, you'll have to DM us right now on Twitter. Our plugins broken, um, the SLA, we still got like, I don't know, two years left on that.

So we'll fix that eventually. All right. And I think I know how to fix it. Okay. So we'll take that offline. But the thing I have to say, I've said before, so if you just want to grab it from last episode and kind of paste it in here, that'd be great.

It's the part where I say be sure to follow us on twitter at coding blocks or head over to codingbox.net and find all the social links of the page i find that to be too confusing can you just say it this time and so i can i don't have to go and hunt for it in some other audio yeah it'd be i can't i just can't seems to can't do anymore fine i'll make it happen do anything i don't want to do anything that I know how to do. I'm going to make it happen, but you might not like the audio I pick. How's that? Yeah.

All right. I'll be like, hi, everybody. I'm Joe Zach. And be sure to follow us at Twitter at Coding Walks. You know, how about if I did that? Yeah. As long as I don't have to do it again. That's fine.

I think my impersonation was spot on. Yeah. Of Stewie. Oh, it was of Stewie? Did I mess up? Oh, I thought it was Milana. All right. All right.

Because I was going to tell you, I finally broke down and bought a new thesaurus. Oh, you did? Yeah, finally. But when I opened it, all the pages were blank. And I'll tell you, man, I have no words to describe how angry I was. Okay. That one's okay.

Wow, Alan. Wow. Okay. Oh, I think I'm going to get you FSR so that you come up with some better words. That's right. That's right.