Coding Blocks - Survey Says … 2020 Stack Overflow Developer Survey

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

We review the Stack Overflow Developer Survey in the same year it was created for the first time ever, while Joe has surprising news about the Hanson Brothers, Allen doesn't have a thought process, and Michael's callback is ruined.

You're listening to Michael. Just Michael. Okay, so here's the thing. While recording this episode, if something could go wrong, it did. Well, okay, fine, fine. It's not quite that bad, but I did lose my connection to our call multiple times, which by itself wouldn't have been too bad. But add to that, Joe's recording device unknowingly came unplugged and lost battery backup about 20 to 30 minutes into the recording. And well, we present to you just Alan's portion of the show. No, no, no, no, no. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Instead, here's our backup audio, but know that the quality isn't up to our usual standards. Enjoy. You're listening to Coding Blocks, episode 135.

Subscribe to us and leave us a review on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and more using your favorite podcast app. And check us out at codingblocks.net where you can find show notes, examples, discussion, and a whole lot of other stuff. And while you're up there, go ahead and follow us on Twitter. I say up there on the interwebs. Follow us on Twitter at codingblocks.net or, geez, follow us on Twitter at codingblocks or head to www.codingblocks.net and find all our other social

links there at the top of the page. And with that, now that I can speak again, my name is Alan Underwood. I'm Jerzak. And I am Michael Outlaw. This episode is sponsored by Datadog, the cloud-scale monitoring and analytics platform for end-to-end visibility into modern applications.

And the University of California, Irvine Division of Continuing Education, one of the top 50 nationally ranked universities. UCI offers over 80 certificates and specialized programs designed for working professionals. Okay, so I made a bit of a promise last time. Maybe a bit of a mistake. I don't know.

But I said. I think we should just maybe just get right into the reviews because that's what everybody wants to hear first. Before, before. Okay. Yeah, before. So looks like I've got a few to uh to read here does someone want to keep count uh okay i i can keep count i think the magic number was 70 is that right 17 if we get to 70 reviews uh i was gonna i was to do something. It doesn't matter. We'll remind you. All right.

So let's get this count going. So we got ACMO, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 3, 2, 2, 5. Okay, that's one. R2K, 101. Two. Super Good Dave on a different platform. Three. And Super Good Dave had an interesting suggestion here.

We'll bring that up a little later. Viz underscore one. That's four. Asaurus Rex. Five. Brainswart. Six. Profit.

Seven. Joe's Got Talent. Eight. Runs with Scissors. Seven. Joe's Got Talent. Eight. Runs With Scissors. Nine. And over on Stitcher, we got TheDude01. Ten. BamaBossJ.

Eleven. One with two dots over the O. I got to tell you, honestly, the numbers are getting so high, I'm having trouble keeping count, but I think very well. Okay. Mustard Maker Deluxe. 13.

Only Raul. 14. Agent Shrapnel. What was that? 15. Yagle. 16. Developer. 17.

And eats glue. Number 18. So thankfully we did not hit 17. We went over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, for real. So I promised a song and this is is not going to be like tattoo thing. I'm working on a song.

I'm not going to do it live. I want to do something a little bit better than that. So you're going to have to wait one more episode, and you're going to get a super-duper good surprise. What? We got to wait? Yeah, trust me. It's worth it.

I mean, I can give you a little me, me, me right now, but you're going to want to wait. I need something for my soul here. Like, I feel like we deserve something. We've been... Give us some handsome brothers or something, man. Come on. Handsome? Okay. Handsome brothers?

Handsome. Tick-a-top-dop-doom-bop. Tick-a-top-dop-doom-bop. Tick-a-top-dad. You know they're brothers in real life? Yeah, I do. I think I even know the verse to that. That's awesome.

So yeah, that's a sneak preview, but stick around. It's going to be much better for real this time. Oh, that's beautiful. All right, so we've got a few pieces of news. So Joe went Joe light on this one. Um, the first one, micro G actually,

I, it's actually Mike RG, I think is what it is, but we always call him micro G. So he knows who we're talking about. He gets mentioned every episode. So he shared this on Slack the other day and I saw it like three days later because I've been so swamped of late that I haven't been on there much.

But so Zoom is bringing end-to-end encryption for all users. And I think that's actually starting up in July. So that's pretty interesting. I mean, we've talked about it before. And while Zoom definitely had a lot of egg on their face in the beginning, they've definitely come back pretty hardcore, right? Like they've put some effort into solidifying their platform. So kudos to them. And then one of our other friends mentioned this the other day. So I don't know if you guys have ever looked into these. You ever heard of the Intel NUCs, nucs or nux so it's basically the easiest way to paint the picture is if you look at one of the uh apple minis that small that little itty

bitty tiny form factor that's essentially what the nuke is and i forget it's something computing um what does nuke stand for i'm gonna have to do this live. Nuke stands for next unit of computing. All right. So these were like the Intel versions of these little tiny computers. Well, the way you typically buy them is you buy an Intel nuke and it would, you know, it might have an I five in it and then it would have two slots for Ram and it

would have a slot for an ssd a slot for a drive something like that right so it's sort of like a bare bone system with the processor and the motherboard and then you pick the rest of the components well so that's really cool if you wanted a little tiny thing that maybe you wanted to be portable that you could take and do things with ryzen just came out or asus just came out with a Ryzen version of it with the next-gen, the 4000 series Ryzen chips. Dude, these things are going to be really powerful in a little itty-bitty box, and the prices look like for the high-end one, the 4800U,

looks like it's going to be about $500. So you can get that thing. It's going to be eight cores, 16 threads in this little itty bitty box up to 64 gigs of RAM, an M.2 slot, a 2.5 inch SSD slot or drive slot. And this thing supposedly will drive up to four 4K monitors out of this little tiny box. So really, really interesting. If you're looking for something that's kind of powerful,

be quiet and itty-bitty, that might be a great option. You know, speaking of hard drives, have you seen the hard drive on the PlayStation 5? I have not. It's something special. I don't quite understand it um so i don't really know what's special about it but they're saying uh 5.5 gigabytes per second and uh you know compared to an external hard drive of you know like around 100 megabytes per second

so it's uh yeah it's huge hugely fast you said 5.5 gigabytes per second? Yeah. That's faster than most of these NVMe SSDs out there right now. I don't know what they did, but it's basically getting close to RAM-type speeds on 825 gigabyte hard drive. That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's what's special about the PS5 hardware-wise. Yeah, they're saying at least 5 gigabytes per second. Yeah, crazy, huh? Awesome.

Yeah, it might be a game changer in terms of games. If you can load assets that fast, then that maybe takes a lot of pre-baking and kind of stuff that you have to normally do in the pipeline out of it. So maybe speed up iteration and make life better, which makes games better. Very cool.

What's the price on the PS5 going to be? Any speculation, rumors yet? So, no, I've not seen anything like that yet, and they definitely haven't announced it, but I don't know. It looks expensive. Okay. All right, so that gets into your tip here,

or not tip, bit of news. Yeah, so the reason I know about all this stuff is because I was on a podcast talking about PlayStation 5 and JRPGs. And I think we talked about a reference to like 2,000 games at least on there, new and old. And it was a podcast called Gaming Fix. And that's Fix FYX. Amazing podcast. I've been listening for a while.

You got to check it out. I was on there. It's possibly the only podcast that's longer than Coding Box. So, you know, pour yourself a couple hot chocolates and nestle in. It was a really great time. So I really appreciate it. I got a link here to the episode

I was on, but you should just subscribe because it's awesome. That is excellent. Yeah. I am curious. You said it was longer. How long did this one go? It was about two hours and i think 45 minutes wow yeah it's good stuff that's pretty good so i guess it's not actually longer than this no that's that's slightly longer than us i don't know that we've gone that long it's close it is close all right so what are you talking about today

outlaws busy typing things. Yeah. I think his audio went out. So it's up to us. Yeah, we are. We are getting these. Oh man.

Yep. We'll, we'll carry on here and maybe he'll be able to rejoin. And we'll just kind of keep the show rolling to then. Yep. So you want to introduce us then? Yeah, sure. So we're talking about the 2020 Developer Survey published by Stack Overflow

within the same year that it came out, which has never happened before. Usually we're quite a bit late, but we're very excited. I don't know how much you've looked at this, Alan. I haven't looked at it at all yet. I want it to be fresh. I've poked around a little bit in here. So I hit like when you go to the page, there's a bunch of cards after you scroll down past how many people have done it.

They've got a bunch of little cards on the screen. I looked at those just to kind of get kind of what their high level hits were. Yeah. But I haven't dug into the survey results yet. So I'm definitely interested in seeing where this goes. So I've only heard two things about the salary survey, you know, which is kind of ahead of time in the circles I run in.

One was that they really tried hard to get like a more diverse kind of set of responses. So they tried really hard to, you know, just get, get into other communities and reach out to other communities to get kind of a better set of kind of experiences, I guess. And so that was really cool.

I know that's a big problem with a lot of surveys where, like, I've seen JavaScript surveys that come primarily out of the React ecosystem, for example, and they only get, like, a certain kind of responses, and you'll see one coming or based out of the Angular community that's something much different. And so, you know, there's like technology diversity. They kind of went at the diversity angle from all angles.

And so I think that's going to make it a better survey than we've ever had before. And I also heard about people's favorite languages. So on the diversifying thing, one of the interesting things that they pointed out in one of those cards that I was mentioning is they actually, usually in the past, they would basically send the survey out to Stack Overflow users,

right? Like, Hey, go take the survey. They tried different approaches this time, like going to social media sites and that kind of stuff. Like people that weren't just on Stack Overflow, they're trying to get other developers from other areas to do it. And it's funny, like I commend them for doing that. Right.

But with that, they said that of all the people that took the survey, 0.3% of the people who took the survey had never visited Stack Overflow before. That's because developers visited Stack Overflow. And that's fair, right? Yeah, I mean, most everybody has. But it just goes to show that a lot of developers go to Stack Overflow, right? So trying to reach that audience through some other, even if you go to Facebook, right, and you tried to target users

on Facebook, it's probably not going to get the same result that you're going to get on stack overflow, but it was interesting. Did we say... Go ahead. I was going to say, reading about the results they got, did they say that it sounds like the results in terms of demographics weren't that different? They got

a slight uptake in some minorities, not others. A little bit more from female respondents and LGBTQ were about the same. I'm glad that they're trying and trying to make things better. Hopefully, they keep at it.

Yeah. I mean, that's the only way it does get better is if people are actually making the attempt. That's cool. I don't know if we said how many people actually took the survey, but the people that they reached out to, they had 65,000 people take the survey. And yeah, the interesting thing that Joe said is they were trying to get, they were trying to diversify the people that were taking it with that, they actually called out that in the past, their goal was, hey, we want to be the survey that the most developers take, right? And this go around, their target was instead of, hey, instead of getting the most developers

on the planet doing it, let me get the most diverse group of developers to do it, right? So they really did change their focus completely. So that was really cool. And still, 65,000 people taking a survey is a it. Right. So they really did change their focus completely. So that's, that was really cool. And still 65,000 people taking a survey is a lot. Yeah. Oh, oh, here's,

here's another thing. That's a very important key takeaway from this. So these surveys were taken pre pandemic. So, um, I want to say, I don't remember if they said it was a January or February, but this say what it was in January or February, but this, say what?

It was February. Okay, in February. And the reason that's important to call out here is because when they start talking about salaries and that kind of stuff, note that this happened before people started losing jobs and all that kind of stuff, right? So that's why they call it out, and it is a very important thing to keep in the back of your mind.

And working from home. Right, and working from home. Right. And working from home now. And there was one other thing that was really cool that was just a call out on this is this data is available. I don't think I ever knew this in the past. Maybe it's always been this way, but they release their survey results under the open database license.

So I don't know where you go get it, but you can absolutely download this data and play with it. And if you're into machine learning or want to learn machine learning, maybe there's some really cool stuff that you can glean out of this, right? So interesting. Yeah, so you want to dive in here into most love languages? That's like their top square here. And it's the one thing that I've heard the most about.

Let's do it. All right. So have you guys heard of this one already? Or have you already looked? I hadn't looked. I had to look. Okay. Well, I'll tell you, my boy, my language of, I don't know if it's my favorite.

Kotlin. We'll just say Kotlin. Programming language Kotlin is number four on most loved languages. And I'm glad to see it up there. That's really cool. Which I love. Wait, wait. So hold on.

All right. So we're going to have to go in order here. Otherwise, it's going to be crazy. So Outlaw, you haven't looked at it yet, right? No. What do you think the number one? I was having like networking issues. So I missed a lot of the call.

So I'd like to go back to hear like why Joe didn't sing. Because everything's been quiet for me up until like the last couple minutes so um okay so what was the question what do you think the number one programming language is most loved most loved not not number one most loved most loved because okay that's a different thing yeah because i was going to say like probably something like a javascript if it wasn't before you said most loved okay i'm like wow that that clearly takes away javascript um oh man most loved i mean i'm gonna oh man my top three choices let me let me just like you know

talk this through let you hear hear my my uh thought pattern on it would be probably i hear a lot of good things about i mean colin's up there but rust and go are up there so I'm going to say yeah I'm going to go with rust as most loved that is it and it's pretty high that out

that was awesome yeah how to get 86% I don't really this presents yeah no it's I mean I don't know what 86 percent actually hold on oh wait it says right here no no percent of developers who are developing with the language or technology and have expressed interest in continuing to develop with it so my guess is there was probably something on the survey that was like hey what language do you program hey which ones do you want to continue programming in?

I'd like to point out, I'm looking at it now, and I'd like to point out that I got three of the top five, so that can't be a bad thing. You really did. That's pretty, and so three of the top five. So let's go through the top five, right? Rust was 86.1%. Like, that's really high. That's, you know, almost nine out of 10 people that have touched it. Love it. TypeScript was number two at 67%. Python three, 66%. Kotlin four, 62% and Go five. And then there's a bunch of other random things down below it.

Let's see. C Sharp landed at what? Number 8. Yeah, that's pretty good. About 60%. So neck and neck with Swift there. JavaScript was at 58%, higher than I expected. It's fine.

R was in there. I was really surprised to see that. Also, I was surprised to see that Haskell had 51% of people saying, or rather about 50% of people that were like, I kind of wish I wasn't. They're on the fence.

So seeing as how we're all on this chart right here, who wants to take the dreaded one? I'm not going to click on it yet. I've seen it. So, Oh, okay.

So you take it then. Uh, uh, yeah, wait. So you take it. What do you think is most dreaded? Uh,

I, I actually clicked on it and I saw the number one result. So I think outlaw needs to, okay. So I don't know what number two again, if I'm talking to it again, i'd have to say that um anything vb related would have to be up there but i also remember objective c being kind of painful so i don't know like but it's been a while and maybe xcode got better but you know there was the whole move to Swift a couple years back,

so maybe it didn't favor Objective-C so much. So those are the two that are coming to mind first as most dreaded language. I'm going to go with VB. So here's the thing, though, before we go to this outlaw joke, is if we're looking at the most loved, those two that he just said are at the very bottom of that list. So do we expect the dreaded to be the complete inverse of this? Yeah, I would think so.

Okay. So VB, you said, number one, hated. Is that correct? I'm going with VB as the most hated language. Yeah. This is why you got to be the survey emcee. You're too good at this. Why?

Did I get it? You got number one and number two. Did I really? Yep. Hold on. Okay, I'm looking at the results now. Yes! Yes!

Dude, what does this say about your language, though? Let's get real here for a second. What does this say about your language that people hate it more than assembly if there aren't a lot of assembly programmers i mean like if you've ever looked at assembly i'd rather i'd rather so many things in my life than assembly now it is weird they they call out specifically vba which is like Visual Basic for Applications, which that's a weird thing.

That's VB, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, I think I said anything VB because I wasn't going to make the distinction between like a VB6 versus a VB.NET. Yeah, I mean, I think VBA is you can bundle anything, VB script, VB anything in there, right? It's just a weird distinction is what I'm saying, though. Yeah, I don't.

Cause otherwise like there is no other VB in this list. Yeah. Weird that they would call it out like that. Oh, but you know what, man, I, this,

we totally, if you look at the percentages, by the way, it's completely exactly what I said. It's inverse. If you take a hundred minus the 19.6 then that gives you 80.4, right? So it's completely the list flipped over. Yeah.

All right. So we're geniuses. Yep. All right. So then there's no way that they did this for Most Wanted. Have you looked at Most Wanted, Joe? Yeah, I have not. Why do you keep doing this, man?

Well, I got to click the button. I haven't looked either all right so ask us a question all right so this is most one are the percent of developers who are not developing with the language but they want to be so what do we think the language is that most developers said they're not working with now but they would like to be huh hmm I'm gonna go Swift Swift yeah Apple okay so I mean you you don't want to talk out your thought process there huh I did okay so there was no process what i'm going to take away from that huh i mean i would think that the most loved are probably pretty up there are these the most wanted like what was how did you define that again is this like i've never touched it at all

ever or maybe i played with it in my free time and i would like to do it professionally uh who have do not developing with the language or technology but have expressed interest in developing with it. See, I'm thinking that, I mean, obviously because of the love that Rust and Go get,

I would think that they would be up there, but I'm thinking Python. Dude, are you cheating? I am not. I am not. I am not. I think you might be right. So I'll take that back. I'm just saying like Python is a very popular language.

And with all the love that you hear for anything data science or machine learning, that would inspire a lot of people like, oh, I want to do Python. Even if that's not their day job, you know, they might want to learn Python just so they could do some, you know, machine learning kind of stuff. I will say this. Here's the funny part. So Python was number one, 30% of people, you know, three, three out of 10 said that they wanted to dabble in some Python, right? Here's the part that's shocking to me, Josec, and Outlaw, is JavaScript is number two

on this list at 18%. So two out of ten people haven't touched JavaScript? Where are these two people on the planet that haven't messed with JavaScript? And they want to. That one's weird. They're working on an assembly right now. That's what they're doing. They want to.

That is crazy that I went three for three. You really did. weird yeah they're working in assembly right now that's what they're doing they want to that is crazy that i went three for three you really did this is gonna like crash and burn from here on i'll be like i'll be wrong every time you set the bar way too high man you can't start off like that now there is a margin of error here because 0.7 respondents have said that they want to work with vba even though they're not right now. Yeah, that doesn't even make sense. Those are the lonely soul. Those are the people accidentally clicked the wrong box and didn't realize.

And you know what? We probably just lost three subscribers for that. Yeah. Oh, sorry. You remember when we were making fun of PHP for a minute and we got somebody who was so mad. It was the first episode that you'd ever listened to. That was unfortunate timing. It really was. Yeah.

I just realized when you made that comment about more people hate your language than Assembly, like Pearl was in that list too. It was more dreaded than Assembly. Sorry, Daniel. We know you're out there somewhere. All right. So what's the next one we want to jump to? So I scrolled all the way back up to the top of the page. And the very first section they got there is geography.

And I think that one's interesting. Okay. But, I mean, okay. Let me ask this though. Because based on what you guys were describing like this is where i where i joined in on the call where you're talking about like how they had tried to um diversify like who they were reaching out to for the results so is their question on geography then going to be a reflection of like where they try to get respondents from i think it's where the respondents were yeah i don't know if it's question on geography then going to be a reflection of like where they try to get respondents from? I think it's where the respondents were. Yeah. I don't know if it's

where they tried. What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, let me, let me rephrase this a different way. If they had just generically said, Hey, everyone who wants to participate, please answer our questions. But what I gathered from what you described at the beginning, that's not the case. They didn't open it up to everyone. And instead, they targeted specific areas. So I'm asking, is the geography going to be reflected in that? Yes, that will be where they tried to target to get people. So what they have here is their survey respondents on the globe. There were 64,416 responses.

So yeah, this is in line with what they were talking about with the diversification. Yeah, I don't believe they excluded anyone. They just did it. They worked harder to try and kind of get it out to just other communities that they haven't before. Right, right. I guess what I was just thinking though is like

if their goal was like oh hey we want uh 10 of their respondents to come from you know russia and then you're like hey what how much you know how many do you think they had from russia then it's going to be like whatever they targeted for example yeah necessarily reflective of reflective of developers around the world necessarily. Right. It wasn't like this thing where they just emailed everybody a link and only the people who got the emails were able to do it. It was a public thing.

Yep. So looking at it, so this is an interesting view of it because what they've got here is it's basically a map of the globe, right? And they have these bubble things. The bigger the bubble, the more people that responded from that particular area. So I'm trying to eyeball it here. The U.S. by far had the most survey respondents, right? Of any country.

Yeah, at 20%. If you mouse over, it tells you the number. Yeah. So that's 20%. The next biggest looks like it's India. Yeah, at 20%. If you mouse over, it tells you the number. Yeah. So that's 20%. The next biggest looks like it's India. Yep. Yep, 13%. 13%.

So that right there is 33% of the entire population that was taken. Then what do we see next? Like the UK and Germany are like neck and neck. Yeah, they're both 6%. Poland's 2%. We got Australia's right at 2%. Brazil's coming in at almost 3%. Yeah.

That's cool. France 3%. But yeah, it looks like, man, they've got representation from almost, I mean, a lot of countries on the globe,

right? Yeah. You know, if you click monthly stack overflow, uh, it translates almost. Yeah. It's almost identical.

Yeah. So that's kind of bad. I guess that's what they're trying to get away from they're trying to kind of spread spread out but yeah it's hard when they're already so prominent i want to do more of this uh i want to see like you know how how good my winning streak's going to be yeah i'm always on the asking side of these surveys i'll keep an eye out for ones you haven't seen yet yeah the next section is about developer roles though and that one's kind of hard to guess at because you don't really know you know unless you're familiar with

what they were kind of asking about oh oh oh have you looked at this one yet then outlaw this is a good one I've been afraid to click on any of them because I'm like I don't know if we're going to ask another question so alright so I think this is a good one then what man I don't know how to do this in any

kind of way that because there's so many different things that they have on here so like they've got data or business analyst system admin designer like there's so many different options yeah um what if you ask like the top three and or yeah how about which is the most yeah okay so i'm gonna going to... Let's read this off like this. So out of these, Outlaw, what do you think is the number one? So system administrator, DevOps specialist, developer front end, developer mobile, developer full stack, developer for desktop or enterprise applications,

or developer backend. Okay. I was afraid of this one because I did see this one. Ah, you cheated. Developer backend. But I was surprised. Yeah. There was one as I was like scrolling through

and as you started saying the names, I'm like, ooh, I you started saying the names of my, Ooh, I think I saw that one, but it's only by 0.03%. Right. Yeah. I kind of wonder about this. It's only ahead by 0.03%.

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Full stack. It was ahead of full stack. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So there was back in developer and then there was full stack developer. Depending on who you talk to, that doesn't even exist. So that's kind of surprising to me. Yes, the full-stack developer is a myth, right? None of us are that. Well, the deal is full-stack is too much to know.

It's just too much for any one person. But back-end or front-end is totally enough to know. That's fine. It's just right. Because there have been people that have built podcasts on one front end technology, right? Yep. Yeah.

I mean, this one's interesting. I like this one because it puts the three that most people identify with right there at the top, right? So developer back end developer, full stack and the developer front end are the top three choices most people identify with right there at the top, right? So developer backend, developer full stack, and the developer front end are the top three choices that people have there.

Yeah. I was kind of wondering about front end. It's definitely lagging in that front number there. And they, they got to book it out a couple of other different ways, but I know for me, like when I'm like searching for something like in Google, I say like,

Hey, you know how to center a div. A lot of times I'll end up at a blog post over stack overflow. But if I'm searching like a, you know, how to center a div. A lot of times I'll end up at a blog post over Stack Overflow. But if I'm searching like a, you know, syntax error, no point or exception in some backend framework, like Stack Overflow is where you get it. And so I was kind of wondering if like maybe there's some skew there just because of like how people kind of talk about frontend issues

and I don't know the kinds of things you Google for, or is that crazy? So here's another question I have to pile onto that. When you say front end, a lot of people will typically go to this notion of a website, but front end is also like, is that mixed in with the desktop or enterprise applications? Because there is a front end for those things, right? Yep.

So I don't know, like If you're talking about a Windows presentation, that's front-end stuff. Yeah, but have you ever seen a true enterprise tool that employed front-end developers? The ones I've seen

definitely had back-end developers doing the front-end. That's a good point. It does. There's a sharp decline, though, in the way this thing, this data is skewed, though. Like, it's very heavy on those first three, like developer backend, full stack, and frontend. Or even on the top five, let's say.

So desktop and enterprise app developer or mobile developer but then after that everything like really drops off significantly after that including game developer way way way down the list yeah that's probably just because of like how you know what do you think is more prevalent a web developer or a game developer? That's true. So I think a lot of this, probably is just like how popular is a particular job type. Which is cooler though. You know what I'm not understanding is they have, so there's the all respondents,

which is what we were just talking about. Then there's ones that were just based off U.S. responses, right? And the first two swapped, right? Full stack is number one, back end's number two, and then front end's still number three. But when you go to United States weighted by gender, I don't know what I'm looking at here. Yeah, I was trying to figure out.

I think maybe what they did is they tried to normalize the male female but how like i don't see where that's represented here there's no separate yeah so i have no idea what this means but when you do that you can see um back-end developer jumps down a percent and uh developer front-end moves up a percent, but I mean, it's not really that different. Hey, but I do want to say that survey waiting is an approach used to analyze survey data. When the survey sample doesn't match the underlying population. Well, for example,

in our survey this year, 12% of us respondents identify as women, but data from the U S Bureau of labor statistics estimate that women's population and software development workforce is from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics estimate that women's population and software development workforce is about twice that. Interesting. They double the results from non-male respondents.

We can use survey weighting to adjust for the mismatch between our survey sample and the population of developers. Okay, there we go. We have an answer. So, the other thing I want to point out here is we had this notion a while back. Is DevOps a title or is it a role? Really?

Are you following me? Because I got to ask because one of the things that somebody or that 12% of people here, of all respondents, they're DevOps specialists. Right. It just points out that this is a flawed survey. They messed up. They had an opportunity to be a trendsetter. I'll tell you,

I've been doing some more work with Kubernetes lately though, and man, there's a lot to know. There really is. There's a lot to know with Docker. Kubernetes is like docker squared right yeah at least cubed think about how many tools there are that start with k now that have developed just around kubernetes because like these 10 billion lines aren't enough now we need like i don't know scaffold and istio and uh i don't know it is itold and Istio and I don't know. It is nuts.

You're not too far off on the lines of code there for Kubernetes, wasn't it? Two million, yeah. Let's see, lines. I believe. It crossed two million lines in December of 2018. So it's probably way past that now. Yeah. All right. All the nautical terms are way past that now. Yeah. All right.

All the nautical terms are kind of cool too. Anyway. So while you guys are looking at that, here's the next one. How many people code as a hobby? Wow. We need a number on this one outlaw. Yeah.

This has to be a percentage. What percentage of people code as a hobby? Um, Hmm. Well, if I'm just talking this one out, I think there would be a pretty decent number. Are we doing,

um, our normal, like if you go over, it's automatic bust, you know, price is right. Kind of. Of course. Yeah. Everybody says price is right. Of course.

Everybody says price is right rules. So just talking this one out, I think that most of the participants, respondents that go to this survey are probably doing it because uh you know they probably use stack overflow for work they're already like professionally doing right uh and so when they have a question it's probably work related so which by the way this this survey just so that you know they do say that these are people who who code for a hobby outside of work as well so they might code professionally so this is just the number of these people that did it. Yeah. I'm glad you clarified that.

Cause that was about to be my question is like, are they only talking about, you know, people who do it professionally or not? So. Yeah. Thanks Alan. Thanks for clarifying that.

I read minds. Yeah. In that case. Hmm. So I want to so i want to i want to i want to be conservative because i don't want to like go over it uh but i'm kind of thinking like the number is going to be pretty decent but there's oh is that is that the thing uh i'm adding that stipulation because i don't need to get it this is like that espionage jack-in-the-box game. Right, you have to hit within X number of percent.

Yeah, I like that. How about, so yeah, if you go over, you'll still get it, but you got to hit within 5% of either side of it. How about that? So you have a 10% window. I'm going to say 45% of the respondents. No, sucker. Now you know what it feels like to be wrong in the survey.

You don't think 45% of the respondents to Stack Overflow code as a hobby? Try 78%. 78%, dude. Really? 8 out of 10 people say that they do it on the side as a hobby okay dang yeah that's a lot i i uh i failed miserably on that one all right joe don't scroll down i guess that's a good thing though because i was just assuming that there's a lot of people who are like you know at the end of the workday, they're like, nope, I'm done.

But I guess this is some days I am. Yeah. There are many days that we are, but, but you also have to admit as developers, you just have a curious mind. You, you, you want to tinker with stuff, right? Like it's just how it goes. I don't know. All right. So you guys do not scroll down. I'm going to ask you this one now. So this is years since learning to code. So this is basically finding out your experience, like how many years experience, right? So let's see. What's the question? Like how many years of experience do the respondents have?

Yes, how many years of coding since they learned to code. So the way that they said this is there's a wide range of experience do the respondents have? Yes, how many years of coding since they learned to code. So the way that they said this is there's a wide range of experience among developers who visit Stack Overflow from season to blah, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, this is basically since you learned to develop, how many years have you been developing? So it basically goes in increments of five years. I'll tell you that. So like zero to five, five to 10, five to nine, 10 to 14, 15, 19, et cetera.

Right. So how long do you think a vast majority of people have been, have experience developing? That, that, that, that respond to the survey zero to five, zero to five. Okay. You Joe three to five.

Now I sense your frustration. So I think you would outlaw pick the same thing as what you're saying mine's a little more fine-tuned so i will tell you that you're both wrong oh and you're not even both wrong in second place wow so a vast majority of people, if you scroll down now, have been programming five to nine years. 30% of people who responded

said that they've been programming between five and nine years. The next chunk of people below that have been doing it for 10 to 14 years. So we got some journeymans here. The third was actually the people less than five years so there's definitely a lot of uh younger or you've been doing it the more you don't know when you have to go back to

the stacker so that makes sense that tracks well i get it it's so fair so yeah pretty interesting um and then 15 to 19 was the next one and then then as it gets older and older, then it drops down, right? I mean, if you've been programming 25 to 29 years, I think it's probably like just a trail off of the respondent data though, because like if you've been programming that long, like you probably moved on to where you aren't a developer or you're just like whatever you're, you know, maybe you just don't use Stack Overflow well check this out that's one thing that's interesting from the ones up above it wasn't just developers that were doing this so looking back at the all respondents on the developer type marketing or sales professional

were in their senior executive vp was in their scientist was in their. Scientist was in there, product manager, engineering manager. So there were a lot of people that weren't necessarily developers that still took the survey. So, yeah. I mean, to your point, usually I say usually, a lot of developers do move up to the management chain when they

hit that ceiling and they've kind of gone as high as they can development wise. But, yeah. our kids come out of school with more programming stuff like my school didn't we had a computer class but it was like learn how to use spreadsheets oh nowadays they have programming in high school i mean outlaw your kids um they're they're in, right? Or at least one of them is. They have development classes, right? Say that again? Like one of your sons, like he's in high school, right? They have software development classes there, right? He's not taking them, but yes, they do have the classes.

Yeah. And I know even when I was in college, right? Like when I first started college, you know, two or three years ago, they were doing C plus plus, but, um, by the time that I actually had graduated college, like we're doing ASP.net things right with SQL server and that kind of stuff.

So yeah, the, the level of interaction and involvement with modern programming languages has definitely stepped up in education. That's not really fair, though. You should give the first graders, you should give them a laptop and a link to an ISO for Arch Linux

and be like, there you go. Your homework's due next week. Figure out how to install this OS on your laptop. Get it ready and get it on the Wi-Fi so you can do the homework you signed somewhere. It's a little hard knocks. Yeah, man. So here's an interesting one. So I don't think

we're going to do a guessing game on this one because this would be impossible. So the next one that they have down under the, you know, who's been programming the longest at these things, right? The percentage of people, this one is years of professional coding experience by developer type. So I mentioned those things like the VPs and the engineering managers and all that. So check this out. This is almost exactly what you'd expect. So we're going from the most years of

experience right now and then going down from there. Senior executive VPs, 16 and a half years of experience. Engineering managers, 13.8 years. System admins, 11. And then it starts getting into developers and system administrators and stuff going down from there. So yeah, it is interesting. At some point, people step out of their development roles after they've been doing it for a long time. They've seen how all the pieces work together and start getting into the management roles and the director type roles and whatnot.

It's interesting to see. So DevOps specialist was the average 10 years, 10.5 years. Developer front end, back end were both around eight. Eight was really the minimum here, which is kind of weird. But yeah, I guess I should be a senior executive VP by now. Oops. Right. Yeah.

I like how they laid it out. What they don't tell you about when you become somebody like a senior executive vp is you think that you work overtime now you step up into that role and you no longer have eight nine and ten hour work days you have 12 and 13 hour work days because you're creating presentations for for the upper brass of the whole time apparently you feel right in code because you're having to go out to Stack Overflow to get some answers. That's right. And if you think you have too many meetings now.

Oh, man. Right. So, all right. What do we got next here? I'm afraid to click around anywhere. Yeah. So I'll just kind of hit the highlights on a couple of them. So 14 to 15-year-olds are when most people write their first line of code now,

which I thought was interesting with India being the, what's this number mean? I don't know what the number means on this, but they're number one. When looking at the average age by country respondents from countries such as Brazil and India tend to start writing code a full two years later compared to developers. Okay. So yeah, it's the, it's the age that people write their first line of code. So in India, they're almost 17 in Brazil, they're 16, et cetera. So in Germany, they start to throw computers at the kids when they're like 13 and 14. Wonder bar. Yeah. Yeah.

That's awesome. Uh, as far as degrees go, okay. What about, uh, what about this one for our law? I already looked at the results.

I haven't. Okay. So we'll say for all respondents, uh, we're looking at the, uh, amount of education that respondents, uh,

have. So, um, percent. Yeah. If you had to guess, here, how about we'll say it this way. I'll give you three answers and you tell me which one you think is the runaway winner. Do most developers have a master's degree, a bachelor's degree, or some college and university without earning a degree?

Okay. Definitely not master's. Bachelor's or just some. I mean, I guess. I mean, I guess. I mean, do most people go to college? So maybe the answer is just some. I'm going to say some.

So for all respondents and for professional developers, bachelor's degree blew it out. Really? 46%. I told you this was going to be a loss. Yeah, it was a tough one. Yeah, I would have guessed the same. Huh? Yeah, it was a tough one. Yeah, I would have guessed the same. Huh. Yeah, that one's weird.

But master's degree was pretty high, though. Yeah, 22, which is crazy. Yeah, a fifth of people have their master's degree. So I think this is a time where we ask, like, what is your level of interest in going and getting? So none of us have our masters um i don't think outlaw you don't right yeah and joe zach i think you're like one credit hour short of my bachelor yeah something like that something ridiculous like basically you just didn't finish

that last one oh i had eight left eight Eight credit hours. That was it really? No, eight classes. Oh, eight class. So two, two quarters left. Yeah.

But it was like the hard stuff. Yeah. I saved all my, I mixed my hard stuff in, but like, what's the level of interest of you guys of actually going back and getting a master's degree in something? I'd rather,

I'd rather not. Very little. Uh, I'd rather not very little. Uh, I mean, it's high, but the, the problem, like I have the interest in it. I have a lot of interest in it, but from a time perspective and a cost perspective, that's the thing that like holds me back. Okay. So then let me ask another question, a followup to it. So I think the way that this was asked just a second ago,

the question is almost leading towards would you get a master's in computer science? If you were to go back, so this is a two-fold thing, what would you be going back to get your master's in, and what would be the purpose for it? So, Joe. Machine learning. So you would go back for machine learning and the purpose would be? Take over the world.

Real-time machine learning. That's an area I think is super cool. Okay. So it would be something that you would actually want to learn about so that you could do for your day job or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Al, are you?

I'd be in the same boat. It would be like the two topics that come to mind would be either computer science or math. Interesting. Okay. What about you, Alan? MBA? Well, hold on. I say math because as it applies to machine learning, for example, that's a very math-heavy topic right there. Yeah. No, I would totally be in an opposite direction. Just what you said, Joe. I'd probably go for my MBA and I'd be looking for business stuff. Like that it'd be networking, figuring out, you know, how to make money,

make more money, work for, you know, just creating connections and stuff. That's what it would be. But I mean, you need to go to school for that. Like, I mean, if you're going to network,

like they're not going to teach you how to be an outgoing person and go talk to people. So by network, I mean, like if I were to go back, I'd probably try and get into the Harvard Business School, right? Something like that. So, so by network, I mean like if I were to go back, I'd probably try and get into the Harvard business school, right?

Something like that. So creating connections that I don't have. Ivy league was an option here. No, but that's what I'm saying, right? Like if I'm going back to school and I'm going to spend my hard earned or, or my valuable time on something like machine learning,

I can go do a plural site course, right? Machine learning. I could go, go research on my own. So that's, and it's not putting down kind of what you guys are saying it's just saying i i would go a different route because i have so much access to so much information on so many development topics that i i feel like buried

in it already and and i don't want to go to a class to do more of it right so that's yeah yeah mba is kind of something like you like you need that people experience like you can't uh you know spend your nights you know alone in a room dark room learning about right you know relationships yeah it's more about um you know working with people and and and solving business problems that kind of stuff so yeah i don't know that one's, that one's interesting, but yeah, my level is very similar to Joe's. It's very low. I don't foresee myself going back to school. Maybe ever.

I don't know. See, um, what about the importance? So they asked people whether or not, uh, they thought a formal education was important. And what do I,

we think the respondents answered, right? Yeah. So I'll tell you, it's basically on a scale of like one to five. Oh, one to five. Yeah.

One being not at all. And five being critically important. And where do we think the respondents landed? Yeah. Yeah. Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Well, important and where do we think the respondents landed yeah yeah huh well i mean you you can have a very successful developer career without having ever uh stepped foot in a classroom to learn anything programming related. And I mean, depending on what you're going to do, maybe some of those, you know,

data structures and whatnot might not even come into play. So I don't know. I'm thinking like, Oh, well, man, I'm thinking like 40% ish would probably say it's not that important. So would you say, so if I say not that important. One being not important, right? One not important. You think 40% would say one out of five? Oh, well, I mean, wouldn't that just be two and three?

Like two would be 40% and three would be 60% or maybe I'm missing. Okay. No, the number of people, if you're looking at percentage, like the percents that they have here are the number of people that chose one or the percent of people that chose two. Yeah. Oh, so am I supposed to just pick the number one through five that was like the most popular choice?

Yeah. 1 being not important at all, 5 being critically important. I guess I'm going to pick middle of the road and just go 3 then. Got it. You did get it. This one's actually spread out

pretty well. Where is this in here though? You got to scroll down. Oh, okay. But this one's actually spread out pretty well. Where is this screen here, though? I didn't... You got to scroll down. Oh, I see. Wow, there are a lot of results on this page. Yeah. And if you remember, too,

so 46% of these respondents had a bachelor's. And if you... Yeah, at least a bachelor's. And so to see it, it's interesting. 16% said not important at all 10% said critically important so those were the two that had the biggest disparity and the rest were kind of right down the middle

pretty evenly matched between somewhat important and very important yeah I mean I get that's why I was thinking like it really depends on the type of development that you do as to like how critically important it is I mean if you're if you're writing code to control the Mars rover,

you're going to be working in different concepts, right? Like then, if you're just trying to make the logo on fire on your website. I don't know, man. Like, I don't know. I don't think that formal education necessarily leads to i think that the people that are that are driven by solving problems that's almost more important than than the people that have been classically educated because i can tell you right now like i

know so many people that have been formally educated that that they have no idea why why interfaces matter in college you know what i mean like you don't actually start getting that stuff until the rubber meets the road and then maybe some things will click in place or maybe they won't even matter then right it's not till you start getting into super heavy like data structuring type stuff that you're actually having to use so i don't know well I was just, maybe I was misinterpreting. I'm talking about in regards to like the respondents, like the 10% who said it's critically important, it probably has to do with what their type of job is.

Totally, right. Right. You know, versus, you know, the 16% who said it's not important, you know, if their job is just like, oh, let me move this div three pixels over, then, you know, I mean, like really how often is Bellman Ford going to come up? Right. Yeah, it is true. All right. So I didn't realize that we're only like a third through this. So we're going to start screaming through some of this stuff.

Well, we'll take a break first, make that paper. Oh, we can do that. That's right. This episode is sponsored by Datadog, a SaaS-based monitoring and analytics platform for cloud scale infrastructure, applications, logs, and more. Datadog uses machine learning

based algorithms to detect errors and anomalies across your entire stack, which reduces the time it takes to detect and address outages and helps promote collaboration between data engineering operations and the rest of the company. Go to a browser and check out datadoghq.com slash coding blocks today to start your free 14-day trial. And if you start a trial and install Datadog's agent, Datadog will send you a really cool purple T-shirt

with a cute dog on it for free. And once again, that URL was datadoghq.com slash codingblocks. All right. So, Joe, then, I mean, you got a good track record here with the reviews. Do you want to try your luck again? Kind of, no. the reviews do you want to you want to try your luck again uh i kind of know i'm kind of i'm a little bit worried about delivering on the uh the promise from last

time so you know i don't know i mean it's super important to us we really love them um we'll do crazy things for them and so if you could go to cookingbox.net slash review and leave one that would be fantastic we got 18 last time, which is super amazing and feels great. And it's just so helpful. And so we really appreciate that. And so I guess I'm saying thank you. But also, if you haven't done it yet, we'd love some more. So hook it up.

All right. Well, with that, we will head into my favorite portion of the show, which is almost what this entire show is. Survey says. All right. So a few episodes back, we asked a very simple question. We're still under this whole pandemic, but the restrictions have lifted somewhat in some areas compared to what they had. But we had asked a few episodes back, are you staying sane during

these stay-at-home orders? And your choices were very simply, yes, or so the voices tell me. Or no, but was I ever sane? All right, so how about, Alan, you go first. I'll give Joe a reprieve since he has to keep his singing voice ready. What do you think the most popular choice was and percent so i i honestly think that right now if somebody were to answer today it'd probably be different than it was two or three weeks ago whatever this was taken um because i know my sanity has been slipping from not being able to go out and do anything of late. But I think even then, people were going to say no, but was I ever sane?

And we'll go with this is actually an A or B question. So it could be higher than 50%. I'll go with 60%. Okay. Alright. And I

will go with 61% for you. No, the voices tell me that I'm insane. All right. So both of you have picked no. And Alan picked it at 60%. And Joe picked it at 61%, right? Yep. Now, this was going back to April,

so this was right in the middle of everything going on, right? Yeah. April had it easy. We just didn't know it yet. Yeah. So, I mean, to Alan's logic there, you know, just saying, the way he was talking that out but the winner is

neither of you it's because it was lower yes was the winning vote really yep like two thirds of the vote was I think if you pulled them today that would flip

yeah I agree. And that's why when you were talking it out, I'm like, oh, he's got it good. Where's he going with this? He's on it. He's on it. But you then failed yourself. I did. I did.

And to be honest, I was feeling sane then of late. Yeah, maybe the trick was or so the voices tell me because like you can think to yourself like, hey, I'm not sane right now. But then the voice was like, no, you are. Oh, yeah, I am. Yeah, you're totally good. Yeah, I thought I was sane a month ago. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Well, so for this episode survey, we ask, so hey, how do you feel about semicolons? And your choices are, sadly, they're a necessary evil for my language. Or my language doesn't require them and I'm a better dev for it. Or there's only a finite number of keystrokes you'll type in your lifetime and since they're optional in my language of choice,

I'm not wasting keystrokes. And lastly, they might be optional, but as a wise man once said, never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down. Now that was going to be a lot funnier had Joe actually done his singing because it was supposed to be a callback and you totally ruined that for me, Joe.

I do like ruining things. I just, for the record, I want the record to show that I didn't let anyone down. That's really good. This episode is sponsored by the University of California, Irvine Division of Continuing Education. UCI is no stranger to online education,

having offered online courses to students around the world for almost 20 years now. There's never been a better time to get a quality and convenient online education than right now. You can learn from anywhere, anytime, by choosing a schedule that meets your needs. Looking to get a job in data science? With UCI certificates in data science, predictive analytics, and machine learning,

students gain the necessary skills to land their data science dream job. If you're looking to become competitive in the global marketplace, advance your career, or start a new one, UCI has the resources to support you on your new path. Enrollment is now open for the summer quarter with the course beginning as early as June 22nd. And if you're concerned about the costs, don't be because UCI has scholarship options for those that qualify. So learn more by visiting ce.uci.edu slash codingblocks to learn more and reserve your seat.

Again, that's ce.uci.edu slash codingblocks and reserve your seat today. All right, so bringing it back in. Yeah, so we're going to have to start cruising through these things because we got lots more. Am I the only one that wants to skip to the technology though? Because those were the fun ones.

Like, you know, the most popular languages. Yeah, I mean, we're there. We did the most popular language. We skipped over most popular technology, though. And that includes some things. It does include languages, which is kind of weird, but also includes HTML, which we've debated.

That's a language or not. Well, it does say programming, scripting, and markup languages. So they did draw the line and say that it wasn't necessarily a programming language. Yeah, and so before we asked you what was the language you most wanted to learn, you know, this kind of thing, or like of people who worked with the language, how much did you enjoy it? Now we're asking basically what's the most popular, saying like what percentage of people said, yes, I work with this. Well, that's what I want to know. Do I work with, which one is popular?

Yeah. And these are the, it does say in this one, in this section for the most popular technologies, these are the most used. So people actually click these boxes for the technologies that they're using and number one unsurprisingly is javascript right yep and then html css and then sql right after it and then python's actually up there pretty high that's crazy to me it beat out java yeah barely but it did i don't know if i'd call four percent like that's pretty decent percent it's it's decent yeah i mean there's 57 000 responses to this 4%, like that's pretty decent percent. It's decent. Yeah, I mean, there's 57,000 responses to this. But yeah, so that's, but JavaScript, I mean, I guess that's pretty crazy when you think about it, right? Like we've gotten comments from people saying,

hey, you know, I'm an embedded programmer. Could you talk more about this? Or I'm this, would you talk more about this? And a lot of times we end up talking about things that are, I don't know that you could call them web related, but they're more of your typical like multi-tier type things that we talk about, which does lend itself to the web world a lot. And this kind of spells out why right here, right?

A lot of people do web-related development in general. And JavaScript doesn't even mean web development anymore. It could be a Node.js application that's doing server-side stuff, but it's spawned from web stuff, right? Here's the crazy part to me in this, though, is that assembly is above. Like, I get that it would be it would be you know well no i don't even get that it seems odd that there would be more assembly development done than vb

development that's already crazy enough but for it to beat out swift like that's surprising yeah i it's uh there's some bizarre things on here this is actually something else worth calling out so the most loved was rust right it was 86 or some garbage it's only used by five percent of the people who took the survey so it does show that just because it was the most loved doesn't mean it's the most popular by any stretch, right? The people that are using it really enjoy it. And same thing, darts on here down towards the bottom. Like there's a Julia was one of the most loved ones too.

And it's no, it's the bottom of the list. Less than 1% of people are actually using Julia. So it is worth keeping that in mind when, when you look at these surveys. Yeah. You know, Code Newbie sent out a survey recently on Twitter and they asked like, if you only got to pick one of these four languages to code for the rest of your life, like which would you pick? What was interesting to me is the languages that they chose to ask. And they said, JavaScript, CSS, Python, or Ruby. Those are the four choices yeah yes which i'm you know i'm not criticizing i was just really surprised that those were the four choices like out of all the languages in

the list like it definitely shows a heavy skew for web dual and even to have css in there and have python and ruby which are two languages i consider like very much competitors in a similar space except the python is also using a whole other domain with the machine learning and stuff. So yeah, I was just surprised to see even... Ruby's a great language. I like it a lot, but Python's so far ahead of it in every aspect now that it's...

Yeah, I mean, if I was learning one, if I had to pick one to learn today, there's no question. Yeah, I mean, seven, eight years ago, Ruby would have been at the top of this list, right? Pretty close to it, and it has taken a major dive. Yeah, I just thought it was interesting to see what language it chose because it just showed, I think, a little bit of skew in that community's thinking about things.

So there was no Java, there was no Go as an option, no C Sharp, So, you know, just interesting. All right. So the next section actually shocks me. So these are the most popular web frameworks, right? The ones that people are using the most. Number one is still jQuery. I guess so. I guess so. Enterprise development. And it's got a big lead. 43% of people are using jQuery, and that's just shocking. Now, React has gained a lot of traction, right?

It's at 36%, we'll call it, and Angular's at 25. But 43% on jQuery? I can't remember the last time I touched jQuery code. I mean, I liked it. I kind of think like, are these, like, why would it be so high? Like, are we talking about legacy apps? But then I was also thinking too,

like there are some frameworks that like they'll still ship with jQuery because under the covers they're using some jQuery stuff. So maybe that's what it has to deal with. So they did call it out. Or whatever, you know, they might use it. It's kind of what I'm... Possibly. I mean, they call it out right here.

They said, we do see some consolidation as more than 35% of respondents use jQuery React, a version of Angular. So it sounds like the people that are responding are using all of these things, right? So they're checking multiple, but the fact that jQuery is still up there is shocking, but they might be using it just like you said, right? So React is a view-only type, not even framework, we'll call it a library. And a lot of times you do need something to make your asynchronous calls and all that. So maybe they are using jQuery behind the scenes with that.

I don't know. Yeah. It's sad that you don't see Blazor on here. Oh, I didn't even think about that. Blazor, those aren't on there. I guess those don't count as frameworks though. Nah. ASP.NET is number four, which is ahead of Spring, which I was surprised about.

Yeah. But they do have angular js separate yeah angular js is the old one right yeah yeah so that's interesting well i guess i wonder if they if they had asked like what the average age of the code you worked with is if it's 10 years then i mean jquery is still still in there but new projects starting out adding j jQuery, like, hmm. Yeah, right. The browsers have gotten so good, but, you know, maybe a lot of people are supporting older browsers. Oh, man, I see. So the next one that we're getting ready to hit on here is kind of interesting.

This is the other frameworks, libraries, and tools. So unsurprisingly, Node.js is at the top of the heap, right? More than half people use it, which is not, not surprising at all. But what is surprising to me are the next two. .NET and.NET core. I'm not surprised by that.

Really? I think that's a factor of the Stack Overflow audience. Oh, that's a good point. A really good point. Really good point. Where did the Java people go? If not for Stack Overflow audience? Oh, that's a good point. A really good point. Really good point. Where did the Java people go if not for Stack Overflow? They don't need it because it's so

awesome. They don't have any questions to ask. It's such a verbose language that it's hard for you not to understand what you're doing. It's so hard to figure out what to even ask on this. I'm not seeing a Kafka, but I am seeing Spark. Someone had to decide like what the options were here and that's hard yeah that is true pace is way up there so the next one databases what do you think the most popular

database was oh my sequel absolutely wow not even close going to say Postgres, but you're right. Postgres is number two. And then number three, want to take a guess, LL? Oh, I already scrolled down. I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah. So SQL Server, which I mean, for an enterprise database system,

a licensed enterprise database system, be that high on the list, that's pretty impressive, really. Because that one's got a price tag. Yeah. I mean, you have to go quite a ways down before you get to another one that has a license cost to it, which is Oracle. Right, and it's what?

It's number eight on the list. So yeah, SQL Server landing in position number three is pretty significant. Poor DB2 all the way down there, second from the bottom. Well, it's interesting to see. So MongoDB is way ahead of all the other document database stuff. I don't really count Redis in there. I don't know about Maria either,

but it's just kind of interesting to see how far they are ahead of things like Dynamo or Couchbase. Yeah. I'm surprised to see Cassandra so far down the list. I would have thought in the big data worlds that would have helped bump it up, but I guess most people are just working on MySQL, Postgres, and SQL Server. Yeah.

All right. Postgres, I've shared this before, man, but I've definitely had a love affair with it. It's good. My only complaint with things like Postgres are the tooling's just not as mature as something like a SQL Server, right? SQL Management Studio is just an amazing tool.

And Postgres, outside of DataGrip, it just doesn't have the same type of support in the tooling world, but it is, the language is kind of pretty around it. Yeah, I would, I would give you that.

I would agree with that. Like, you know, I use data grip, but I don't like it nearly as much as a SQL server management studio. That's still good too. Yeah, that's it. I mean, outside of that, it is a fantastic piece of technology.

And to that end, like JetBrains, if you're listening, like why is there not a filter capability? Like I hate that. Like if you're trying to filter out your routines, for example, in DataGrip, like in SQL Server Management Studio, you could right click add a filter and just filter the list and you could see everything that filtered to that list right

that you that you typed in with a data grip i guess they thought they were being clever because you could like click on something and then start typing away to see it but you can't filter the results to just those things and And that's a big difference. Navigating to something is not the same thing as filtering the list. Agreed. And it doesn't find things that are in the middle, of course. And so if you want to say look for all tables related to users, it'd be nice if you could filter by user and see things that were prefixed

with user or had a two users or maybe a user in the middle or whatever. Yeah. All right, so next one up. This one is a little bit shocking to me also, is the platforms that people are on. And number one? Windows. Linux. Really?

Linux, yeah. Barely. I don't quite understand the question, though, because I don't see OSX on here. Oh, no, it is. It is macOS. Okay. Oh no, it is Mac OS. Okay. Yeah, so Linux is number one, Windows is number two,

and Mac OS is way down, which is strange. But this isn't making sense to me, because AWS is number four. How can Linux and AWS be in the same category? I'm not sure. Raspberry Pi. Raspberry Pi, that's hardware. That's not an OS.

Yeah, that's right. Raspbian is the OS, right? This feels very... It says platform, though, right? It's a weird selection of tools. I don't see Mesos at all, and I can definitely consider that a platform. I don't see Docker.

I guess they got Docker. Yeah. Check this out. So this will tell you how far skewed it is. So Google Cloud Platform is awesome. I'm certified. But it's like a distant number three, number four to Azure and AWS.

And it's like two points off of Azure. It's like half a percent away from Azure on this list. Yeah. Both of those are like half of where AWS is. And by the way, WordPress is one of the platforms. So yeah, it's definitely odd, right? They have OSs mixed with technologies like Docker, and then they've got cloud platforms.

There's no Drupal. Yeah, where's Drupal? Well, Drupal was up above in one of the other questions, by the way. Was it really? Yeah. Yeah. Where's Drupal? This list is dead to me. Well, Drupal was up above in one of the other questions, by the way. Was it really? Yeah. That's weird. I forget which one it was, but it was definitely up there. Yeah, I don't remember now.

All right. It was web frameworks. It was the least. Okay. It was the least popular of the web frameworks. All right. So, hey, speaking of which, we're now down back to the, we've already done the languages. So now let's hit the most loved, dreaded, and wanted web frameworks.

This does my heart good. Have you scrolled down yet, Joe? You have, haven't you? Yeah. All right. So Outlaw, what is the most loved web framework? Okay. What is the most loved web framework? Okay, so I would have to say that it would be, I mean, you have the big three.

So it's either React, Angular, which I'm just going to include everything Angular, or Vue. But I think between those three, it's going to be React. And you're wrong really asp.net core wow now again to your point same ballpark right to your point though this is a stack overflow thing which does tend to lead towards.net developers so but i'm gonna use my own logic but hold on your logic was not that flawed because

reactive view were the next two right um angular was way down the list honestly it's in the middle of the pack like it's behind spring jango flask gatsby really behind gatsby yes weird so we do have angular js broken out so it's kind of weird But you can't just add them together, too, so you don't know what kind of overlap. So it's just kind of weird. Hey, I will say this, though. If you've ever developed AngularJS, so we're talking in the 1.3.x world and before, it is hated for a good reason. It was an absolute mind bender. I remember trying to learn it.

I was like, okay, there's these seven concepts you have to learn. There's a directive. Okay, there's actually kind of like 11. Oh, God. And none of them made sense. You could go look at a repo and see the thing and still not have any idea of how it worked. It was ridiculous.

I got to take issue with this. I do not buy this. ASP.NET Core being the most popular most loved web framework. People who use it, who like it.

This is definitely a factor of the Stack Overflow. Maybe, although if you have written anything in.NET Core, it really is lovely. Right? So I don't know,

man. Maybe. I'm calling it shenanigans. That's it. Shenanigans have been called. You might be. I think you're right. So I'm surprised to see that 36% of people worked with ASP.NET and enjoyed it.

I enjoyed it until.NET Core came out. Now I don't want to touch it. Right. Yeah. No ASP.NET. You don't want to touch ASP.NET Core? No,.NET. Non-Core.

Right, non-Core. Okay. But now they're kind of rebranding it. So, ooh. All right. So then the very next one that we have on the list here is the most loved, dreaded, and wanted other frameworks, libraries, and tools, which I don't totally get. Like, I don't know how you bundle these things together, but there's no way you'll guess these. So.NET Core itself, not ASP.NET Core, was number one.

Torch and PyTorch, too. Flutter, really cool. Number three. Pandas. I don't know what Pandas is. I've seen it. It's a Python library. Okay. Terraform, pretty high on the list here. Yeah, I love it.

Our DevOps folks, because it is a title. That's crazy that that one would be that high. That one's really high, yeah. Look how much machine learning stuff there is. Just Python stuff like Torch. We've got Pandas. We've got Keras. That's crazy. Spark is Python or

Java. Yeah, there's a lot. So that's pretty cool. Let's see. Ha! Here we go. What are the most loved databases? Outlaw. Give me the top three most loved database did we already cover this no that was that was most used this is most loved wouldn't this be different i mean because my sql postgres and sql server

those were the most used i guess so yeah most I'm going to say they're still the most loved nope nope nope Redis number one and Joe threw down on it a minute ago I was like I don't even count Redis I just don't think of it as a cache I've heard it's an inventory database

wait you don't think of it as a cache? I do think of it as a cache. Oh, yeah, me too. I still have a hard time thinking about it like a database. I've seen some cool stuff in it. I don't know. Postgres was number two and JZ's

here at number three. Logstash. Elasticsearch. Yeah, so Elasticsearch number three and then Mongo after that. So yeah, that's pretty cool stuff. If you check out wanted, it's similar. If you check out what? Oh, wanted.

I got you. MongoDB jumps up to number one. It was just interesting. We talked about Mongo. Nobody wants DB2. Yeah. Nobody wants Oracle2. Nobody wants Oracle. The most wanted platforms, I think we skipped that because again, this is such a mixture of weirdness

that I don't even know what to say about that one. Hey, Docker's number two though. So who called it? Who called it? And Kubernetes is number three. Number three. I'll tell you. Docker, I think at this point you need to consider Git and start working on getting a base level competency if you're any developer with very few exceptions. And I think if you're working on the web, Kubernetes is knocking.

I think the time is coming where everyone needs to have like a base literacy in Kubernetes. So you can understand when someone says this, you know, differences between pods and services and stuff like that. Dude, I would go a step further. I wouldn't say just web. If you're working on anything that requires any kind of,

uh, set of servers or services to talk to each other at that point, you need to be looking at Kubernetes. The web is easy to say, but I mean, just as a simple thing off the back of my head, if you're working on large numbers of transactions for a credit card processing company or something, right? Kubernetes absolutely could be a fantastic thing for scaling up the number of workers to crush the data and all that, right? So there's, I mean, if you need

any kind of multi-tiered system that needs to stay alive, you should be learning Kubernetes right now. But can we say it's a little sad to see Heroku so far down? Yeah, it's nice. It's nice? Not that it's down. He said that Heroku was nice. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh.

Yeah, yeah. Not nice that it's down right right right sorry yeah i like it yeah i don't have a ton of experience but it was nice for i'd follow like uh you know some getting started guy whatever and it'd be like a two-liner and i'd have something up there which is nice well i mean how can you not yeah i mean like let's show some love for the authors of the 12 factor app i app. I mean... That's true. Yeah, that's why I'm sad for them. I'm like, oh, man.

Yeah, man. You know what's funny? It's like Kubernetes has that in its core. All the things that I kind of struggled with, like thinking about logging to standard out and taking in environment variables over any other format, those things seemed crazy to me at the time. And now I think you're crazy not to do those things. It's just fundamental

to Kubernetes. I complain about the complexity of Kubernetes a lot. But when I think about it, like, oh man, I had a frustrating day. I worked with Kubernetes so often. It was so complicated. Nothing worked. It was so horrible. I finally got it working. Then I sit back and think, well, it's like, well, I did deploy

like a 13 service architecture about 80 times today, various combinations of permutations and things that I was really upset about the complexity weren't so much with Kubernetes, but like just the services underneath, which I would have had to deal with anyway, it would have been much, much slower if I was installing on hardware. Man. And what he just said, this is the part that people who haven't worked with Kubernetes or Docker, right? Like you said, Docker needs to be almost a core competency for people nowadays. But what you said is so important.

If you were to even do a fifth of what you talked about on any given day, you couldn't have because you would have been installing OSs. You would have been installing versions of Java. You would have been configuring environment variables and all that kind of stuff. Like Kubernetes takes all that away. And now you're just trying to figure out, okay, how do I make these things talk to each other?

How do I, you know, that kind of stuff, right? It's stuff that you would have had to have done on top of setting up VMs or hardware and other things in the past. So it's, it is crazy.

Yeah. I remember I worked at a web shop and we had a server that got hacked. Someone basically managed to brute force the password. We had a bad password and the SSH'd in. And we got them out of there and kind of fixed up what they did, we think. But it was like one of those things where it's like,

well, how do we know if they didn't create some other backdoor, didn't do something bad? Like really, we need to destroy this box and set it up but set up another one but it's like oh that's like a lot of work and we've got other stuff we need to do you know i kill pods i mean just for fun sometimes lots of them i feel like you kill all of them that says says, I kill pods. Yeah. And I like them. I just have no respect for them. They're just like zombies, right? You kill it, it comes right back.

I mean, it's amazing. That's the joy with Kubernetes. Yeah, like cattle is too nice a word for them. Hey, so what is the most popular or not? What is the primary operating system for developers? Arcs Linux. You lose. Again, it's okay.

I'm going to use the same logic I said the first time with Windows being the answer because I'm thinking like the Stack Overflow audience here is going to lean Windows. Totally. You're're right and that's like half of it and then and then mac os and linux are right there at 26 27 yeah i'm surprised to see the neck and neck like when i go to a conference like for years like everyone had a mac and now it's changing yep well i mean in fairness windows we've talked about so many times but like the Windows subsystem for Linux and all that, like they have truly made it pretty good to work in. Although I will say Windows subsystem for Linux 2, it's annoying that you have to be on a preview build right now for that thing to work.

So they need to get that thing out there quick. When are we going to get to what's the most paid? The highest paid one. That's what I need. It's next. It's like the next section. Oh, is it? Alright, so collaboration tools. Oh, killing me here. Let's hit this one. No,

GitHub. Oh, really? Yeah. And then Slack. Okay, I guess, yeah, that does make sense as a collaboration tool. I was going to say it doesn't, but then I started thinking about it, and I'm like, yeah, I know all the issue conversations that happen. Yeah, tons of them. Yeah, so GitHub, Slack, Jira, then Google Suite, GitLab, blah. We don't have IRC on here, but we have Stack Overflow for Teams.

Like, come on now. Yeah, you can tell who made the survey because it's really at the bottom well what's facebook workplace i don't even know if i've heard i don't want to find out how about that is that an option oh i actually like this one hold on so researching tools i'm going to read the blurb on this one when researching new tools over three-fourths of respondents like to try the tool for themselves via a free trial. Social proof is also important as over 60% of developers ask other developers they know about or visit developer

communities such as Stack Overflow. So yeah, researching tools, people will start a free trial. 77% of people will do that. So if you're a developer of a service or a tool out there and you're not offering that, you're probably missing out. Right. That's insider information right there. Ask developers they know 68%. Visit developer communities like Stack Overflow, 64%. And then it is a cliff dive to the next one which is read ratings or reviews 29.9 i'm just saying go to datadoghq.com coding block start your free 14-day trial right right all the agents see what it's all about right yeah no they obviously they know what's up uh we'll skip the

influence nobody cares all right top paying technologies. Here we go. Joe, you want to take these? I've looked at them. So neither of you have looked at them? I have not. I am looking at them now. I have not looked at it. Okay.

This is on you. So globally, let's see if you can name any one of the top three paying programming languages across the world. And then before we tell you that you're wrong, we'll look at the United States. Okay. You assume I'm going to be wrong. Yeah, you will be. So I got to name all three of the top paying.

If you get one of them, I'll consider you a winner. Yeah, totally. Hey, we can even do top five. No, stop it. Top three. Okay. I mean, now you're making me feel weird. I was, okay, so here's my thought process on this,

is that I was thinking because of all of the data science and machine learning kind of love that Python would be up there. So that's in my list here. You don't want to take two more guesses? I mean, no. Yeah, no, you got to take two more guesses. I got to name all three at the same time. Yeah, just pick any one of your three.

Any one of your three make the top three, then you're a winner. Any three of my three make the win. And this is like top paying language? Yeah, top payingpaying languages. But not like technology. You're not going to come at me and be like, oh, if you're an AWS architect then... No, these are languages.

These are languages. HTML isn't a list though. HTML is in the list, but it's not a language. But I want to confirm, does YAML count? Because if you come at me with a Kubernetes YAML file or something like that. No, no, that's not in here. No, no, that's not in here.

Should be. So the other two languages, and I guess I could already take a hint that Python wasn't in there, or else you might have already declared a winner. That's correct. I might have. I might have already declared a winner. That's correct. I might have. I might have. So Scala, maybe? I'll be doggone.

Really? Yeah. Did I get it? You did. You want to take a third guess just for fun? Of most highest paid job. In the world. I don't know.

I'm thinking either an F sharp or a Haskell. Okay. So how about we go to United States? Okay. And then do that before. Because I don't want to tip you off. Uh, I want this to be hard.

I'm okay. But isn't it? I mean, I'm, I would probably just give the same answers already. Okay. Yeah. So the same for us. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I don't, I don't care to make a distinction. Okay. Yeah. All right. But I gathered, though, with my Scala answer, though, that I did.

Or were you guys just messing with me? No, you won. You did. Yeah, you made it with Scala. But here's the crazy part. So the top paying job is Pearl. In the world. Now, here's one thing that's crazy, right, is Pearl in the world. Now, here's one thing that's crazy, right, is the monetary amounts here.

So the top paying jobs in the world were Pearl at $76,000. And I assume that they put these in U.S. equivalents. In the United States, the top paying was Scala at $150,000. So it's almost exactly double. If you look at globally, Pearl and Scala are both $ 150,000. So it's almost exactly double. If you look at globally, Pearl and Scala are both 76K. Either it's alphabetical or some small amount as Pearl and Lee. And to be clear, though, where there were 65,000 responses on other things, how many do we have?

There were only 33,000 people that decided to put their amounts in globally on this things. They, how many do we have? There were only 33,000 people that decided to put their amounts in globally on this one. So there was a massive drop off. And in the US, there were almost 8,000 responses. But yeah, so Scala, 150K. Go, 140K, which makes sense. That's a Google thing for the most part. So not surprising there. I don't think

Objective-C, 135 K. Kotlin, 130 K. So this is interesting. F Sharp didn't even make the list. Nope. Ruby did. Ruby is the top 10. And in both,

regardless of whether or not you're looking at global or just the US, Haskell outranked Python. Yep. So I was way off with my machine learning data science kind of logic there. That didn't pay off at all. You know what's interesting to me is, so even in the US, at the very bottom was VBA. And it's got an average, or a median of 97k I know the developer survey for

Orlando like 97k is good for my area and so it's interesting to see that it's like the bottom of the list here across the United States so either Orlando has a crappy environment or this is skewed towards those kind of higher density

places maybe like New York's and Seattle's and Seattle yeah the interesting thing here is I did consider mentioning either go or rust and worldwide the go was three and rust was four in the US go was two and rust was

like what seven somewhere in that range seven you know you like how I was like look if you got to pick one It's like, what, seven, somewhere in that range? Yeah, seven. You like how I was like, look, if you got to pick one, sorry, Ruby. Everyone should learn Python now that we go look at how much you get paid. Now I'm like, okay, sorry, Python. Time to pick up Ruby. Ruby is ahead of you in both lists.

Not super far, though. That's the one thing that is sort of misleading about the U.S. one, right? Yeah, it's a lot close. Yeah, Ruby's 130 and Python was 120. So, I mean, it's not chump change, but it's certainly not 150 to 97. I really am impressed that I pulled Scala out of my butt because I just literally was like, okay, let me pick something obscure. We don't see a lot in our circles. And I knew that Scala was a big deal.

And that's why I was like, well, instead of Java, I'm going to pick Scala. That was good logic. It worked out. It was random logic, but yeah. I don't think we can even talk about this, how technologies are connected. It's just a mess.

There's some pretty interesting stuff. So like, if you look, there's like these kind of connected nodes, like they show like little islands of correlation. And so if you look, like there's one island that's like, you see Docker related to Kubernetes, related to Elasticsearch, Redis, Postgres, AWS, Dynamo. So like, there's kind of like

the kind of cloudy infrastructure kind of cloud there. And there's like this machine learning cloud where it's like if you're searching for Pandas or Python or Flask or Django or PyTorch, like that sort of stuff is up there. What's weird to me is Java is closely connected to Android. I kind of expected that to be its own

thing and then like spring is correlated java and they actually have a thing up top with like spark hadoop and scala it's off on its own little island which is weird to me so you know it's cool but other than the web of course there's like this whole big um ecosystem for like html and javascript react like all the kind of web technologies you see MySQL over there, MariaDB. And then there's also a little island for.NET. Can we talk about the elephant in the room then? Which one?

Is it really supposed to be pronounced Pondus? No, I just did that. We know my track record with proper nouns. But okay. Um, I,

uh, the, the 18, those 18 reviews wore out my, uh, pronunciation skills. All right. So let's see what we've got next. Learning and problem solving the frequency that people learn new things.

This one's kind of interesting. Um, most, most people learn something every few months. People learn new things. This one's kind of interesting. Most people learn something every few months. A third of people. So 37.3% try and pick up something new every three months or every few months. Once a year is basically 37% again. Two-thirds of the population here in the respondent population are learning something at least once a year.

If not multiple things, once a year. Two percent once a decade. Those people are still working on VB. Or assembly. It's kind of weird. What do you classify as a thing you know um they have another question here what do you do when you get stuck and google was not one of the i know visit stack overflow gee i wonder if that was skewed a little

no come on i mean it happens overflow answers i google to get to it. Yeah, exactly. Nobody goes to Stack Overflow directly. This result is a lie. 90% visit Stack Overflow? I don't buy it. Nope. The only reason I type in Stack Overflow is to see if anybody has answered my question and they never do. I like that panic was one of the options though. Yeah, 10%.

And I like how you panic before you go to the other developer community. It meditates one of them. Nobody meditates when they're trying to solve a problem. Get out of here. Apparently, almost 12% do. And, you know, they're probably better people for it. And, you know, they probably have youth on their side.

Where's Benjit? I don't see that on here. Or Drink, to be honest. Right, yep. This is a funny one that they asked this year. Already visited feeling. First time we asked developers how they feel when they search for a coding solution online

and discovered that the first result link is purple because they've already been there. How do you feel about it? Are you annoyed, amused, indifferent, or hello, old friend? It's definitely hello, old friend. Yeah, 51%. I'm always looking. I'll search something like, man, I know I visited this. I need to see the purple link. Where is it? yeah there's a a link that we've talked about on the show that i shared as one of the tips of the week i think as it relates to um even though i've done this command like a countless number of times but if i want to

undo the last commit i always have i know exactly the stack overflow answer i go look at that but i know always like you always just do the Google search because that's how you get to Stack Overflow. I don't care what their survey says. And then I see that purple link and I'm like, yep, that's the one. Yeah, I'm familiar with that sort of thing. Get reset, tilde one, head something.

All right. All right, we need to round robin these and blow through them now. So Joe, you want to take employment status? Yeah. I'll just tell you 92% of professional developers are employed at least part-time, but 12% of the respondents just said they were students.

All right. Outlaw employment status by geography. Yeah. 78, almost 79%. Let's call it 78 and a half. How's that? We'll call it in the middle. Full-time employed, which I think is consistent with what Joe just said, right?

Yep. When was that? So, like, no big surprise there. Oh, I'm sorry, but by geography. I did miss that part. I was just looking at the survey part. So, that was for the U.S. It's weird that this one, they actually, like, break it down by country.

So, I guess in India, it's weird that this one, they actually like break it down by country. So I guess in India it's 73% UK, it's 77 Germany, 70 Canada, 72. So everyone's greater than 70% full-time employed. Students in India. There were quite a bit more students in India. That's definitely interesting. All right. So I'll pick up the next one. Overtime. This one, this one, everybody sort of feels. So this is basically the number of people or the percent of people that never do overtime, 11%. Rarely one to two days per year

or less, 15%. Occasionally, so one to two days per quarter, but not monthly, 22%. One to two days per month, but less than weekly, 27%. And one to two days per week or more, 25%. So people putting in some overtime for the most part. It's crazy too. Like I remember, uh, I had an old boss that like you ever, you ever have that kind of like relationship with somebody to where like, you know, they can say something to you and you're like,

I don't know how serious you're being, but I feel a little uncomfortable trying to verify, you know what I mean? Yeah. That makes sense. And, and so like this was you know a long time back but i had a uh a boss and we were come i was just you know casually oh i guess

complaining would be the way to say it but but it was more like casual conversation kind of thing like kind of complaints you know but i was talking about like how, uh, we had a high, we were measured on a high utilization rate. And, and I was commenting like, Hey, you know, if you looked at the math for like how many work hours there are in a 40 hour week, multiply that out by, you know, a number of, uh, weeks in a year and then subtract out like any holidays that the company gives plus any vacation, the vacation that the company gives plus any vacation the vacation that the company gives you to take i was like it's impossible to make the utilization target right and and completely deadpan honest straight face he told me well you're supposed to work a minimum of like a 44 hour week that's your your minimum. And I'm like, I remember my

response in my head was like, legally in the US, you can't tell me that. I don't think, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there's like labor laws that say that you can't tell me that. But it's really weird that you are, A, that you are telling me that. And then B, that that would actually be the way that we would be measured considering the labor law thing. Cause I'm like pretty sure that's not, but you know, I didn't go to law school,

so maybe that's where I should go back for my master's degree. Right. Uh, all right, Joe, you got company size. Yeah. So,

um, if you guys had to guess, uh, the most common company size. I already saw it. Okay. I'll just tell you. It's small. So 20 to 99 employees had 21%. And the next biggest was 100 to 500. So I would consider both like 500, I think is a pretty large business. But then there are some kind of things around that, but then 10,000 or more had 13%, which is interesting. Yeah, so the first two you said were 40% of the population there. So that's...

Yep. Yeah. And we ran a survey kind of similar a while back, a couple years ago. I don't remember the exact answer, but I know that definitely small businesses won out there, and we had very few in the 2000 or more. Yep. All right.

Outlaw, you got onboarding? Yeah, sure. This is almost half of the respondents reported that their company has a good onboarding process. So like 48 and a half percent. Yeah,

that's, that's good. That's actually really good. We've all been places where there weren't onboarding things. Hey, go talk to Harold. Exactly. Thanks. I like that the options, though, it wasn't just binary yes or no.

There was a third option, which was onboarding. What onboarding? I'm like, hey, wait a minute. I didn't write this survey. Yeah. Now, this next one's really interesting it'll probably do your heart a little bit good here outlaw and it's the presence of devops personnel so people doing that role we'll call it it's it's almost almost split down the middle so yes is 44 no is 44 ish percent not sure, so people have no clue what DevOps is, is 12%.

That's pretty interesting. And so if you don't know, then the answer is yes, and you're not it. Although I've been in places where there was no such thing as DevOps. It was like copy and paste your code over here. Oh, yeah. You know, there's no such thing as DevOps. It was like copy and paste your code over here. Oh, yeah. There's production pasted over there. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Well, how about the importance of DevOps? So 48% strongly are extremely important. So that's comforting to know, right? Yeah. Like only 1.4% said it was not at all important. Those are people, man. But I think that this is also, again,

highly skewed to who the audience of Stack Overflow is, right? So developers, we get it. We agree why you would want DevOps in your organization. But, you know, trying to convince a boss who doesn't see the value of it or has never had any experience with it, you know, they would

likely say like, oh no, not important at all. Yeah. My process. So. All right, Joe. You got this one. How do developers feel about their job? So we have another one to five here. We have most people saying they're either slightly satisfied at 30% or very satisfied at 32%.

That's actually the most. So the people who are either slightly or very satisfied with their jobs are 63% of the vote. So vote so hey great job to be in can't but isn't this really a function of when in the week you ask the question oh yeah because i mean if you hit me up in the middle when i'm like still working on something you know i might be like really unsatisfied with my progress on it. Right. But then as it, as it gets further along and you're like, you finally solved that problem and you're like, ah, commit it. Yeah. Yeah. I've definitely had, I had a pretty bad day

this week and I'm just like, look, if you want to ask me to do anything, can you just wait till tomorrow? You'll get a better answer. We've all been there. All right, so we're going to skip several of these because there's still so much here and we're already running pretty long here. So one of the ones that I think people would be really interested in is salary by developer type. And so this is,

I'll go with global first. I'll hit like the top five and then I'll switch over to the US. So engineering manager globally is 92,000 a year. Engineering site reliability, 80,000. It drops off pretty big, right? We just dropped 12 grand between first and second. Number three, DevOps specialist, 68,000. So you just dropped another 12 grand from there.

And then engineering data, 65,000 and then data scientist was 58. So big drop off. Yeah. And the reliability engineer, that was like a term that we weren't even talking about two, three years ago. And somehow it jumped up to number two.

It's a big one. Got to keep all this stuff running, man. All right. So in the U S itS., I think the positions, there's only a few of them that changed place. It's the same top five, but they just swapped roles. Actually, no.

So DevOps specialists dropped out. So data scientists or machine learning jumped up. So here we go. Same top five. They just moved in position. So here we go. Same as top five. They just moved in position. So here we go. Engineering manager, 152K. Engineering site reliability, 140K.

Data scientist or machine learning specialist, 125. DevOps specialist, 125. And data engineer, 125. So, yeah. I was surprised to see mobile engineers being so low and designers in

the US way down at the bottom of global. Not so bad, but I can't design for anything. So I'm surprised to see it's so low, but just kind of interesting. And DBA near the lower end of things too. Yeah, that's surprising.

But here's another interesting takeaway from this list though. Of this list of all of these jobs, every one of them are six figures in the U.S. In the U.S., yep. And again, a lot of this is probably skewed when you go to the companies that are based out in Seattle, New York, that their salaries are just higher. San Francisco, the cost of living in those areas is so high

that to even get people to come to work for them, they've got to pay. But it's important to point out, though, that these are the medians. Right. So there's lots of people lower, and then there's lots of people higher, right? Half the people lower and half the people higher. What's not the mean, right? Right. Yeah.

It's the right in the middle. Yeah. Yep. So I see where you're going with that. So it's better than average because they're like average. You have one person who makes like a hundred million and excuse. It just ruins the whole number. Yeah.

The median is better. Yeah. Um, I don't know. was there anything else we wanted to hit on here it doesn't look like the the hours per week was interesting more than half the people are like no i work 40 to 44 hours a week that's it well how about how about this one of the respondents that like how often do you think the respondents visit stack overflow% of the time. Well, how about your choices are going to be

like you don't visit, you've never visited at all, or you visit less than once per month, or a few times per month or weekly, or a few times per week, or daily, or multiple times per day.

I want to say daily, multiple times per day. Those are definitely the top two. Those two answers right there are almost two-thirds of the vote. So daily or almost daily is 30%, and multiple times per day is 28%. That makes sense. People that go to Stack Overflow go to it a lot. You know, we were surprised to see

Perl being so high in the salary list. They have a bunch of visualizations we didn't talk about, but one of them shows language and experience level. Well, Perl developers, on average, have been working longer than everyone else. They've been on this chart, they're showing up at like 15 years roughly of experience.

So maybe they're not making money because they're working at Perl. They're making money because they've been doing programming stuff for 15 years on average, more than people who are working with like JavaScript, which like skews towards younger developers and people have been doing it less time. So it's not necessarily that JavaScript gets paid less,

but it's actually the experience that's influencing that number more than the language. Yeah. It's kind of interesting. And I wonder too if that means like that Perl is your primary job or just that

you also do Perl. Yeah. All right. Well, all cool stuff. So, uh, with that,

you know, we're, we're going to have, uh, the link to this survey, obviously in the resources we like section. But with that, we will head into Alan's favorite portion of the show.

It's the tip of the week. So Joe. Oh, I get to go first so I just saw this today and I signed up for it and I haven't used it yet FPN Firefox Private Network it's a VPN account that you sign up with

I think it's five devices for $5 a month from Firefox. Firefox is getting into the VPN game. I trust Firefox and Mozilla. So I've been meaning to sign up for a VPN again anyway. So why not support a browser and kind of organization that I respect? And so I haven't read too much about it. I saw a lot of kind of good chatter in the comments

like Hacker News and stuff. And I was like, oh, that's good enough for me. It's better than me picking a VPN based off, you know, who comes up in Google first. Yeah, I like that logic. I could get behind that. Yep.

Alright, well, for my tip of the week, this came to us on Slack from Derek, and he mentioned sdkman.io. So you go there, you can download and install it, and now when you need like a JDK, you could just say sdk install jdk. That's nice. That's nice. That's amazing.

You can't get any easier than that. You can get a lot harder than that. You can't get a lot harder. That's really cool. All right. I thought that was pretty neat. Now, I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I do have some needs that I'm like, oh, yeah,

I think I am going to be finding myself using this here really soon. Cool. Oh, I wanted to mention quick. So when I said I signed up, I signed up on the wait list. It's not, they're still rolling it out. So you got to go sign up now, get on the wait list, and then you can decide later if you want to actually do it. How much do you have to wait to get on the list? They don't say.

They don't say. They don't say. Ah. All right. So. I'll be here all the week with the dad jokes. All right. So I've got two. One, I just got today from somebody that joined Slack.

We've talked about it before. If you're not part of our Slack community, you should go check it out at codingblocks.net slash Slack. Tons of great people. Well, Gail Elmala from Slack had contacted me and was like, hey, I made this utility. Is it okay if I share it on some of the channels or would this be kind of like the wrong thing to do? I was like, well, tell me what it is and go share it. And if it's cool enough, maybe I'll use this tip of the week. Well, it turns out it is cool enough. So in a nutshell, he created this thing called Scaffolder. And basically, the gist of it is this.

A lot of times you'll go create directories in your projects and those directories will have the same structure. The file should have the same headers, the same imports, all that same type of stuff, right? Like think about if you're in.NET and you're writing a web API endpoint, right? It's a bunch of boiler plate code, but you want things named a particular way. You want the classes named a particular way, all that stuff, right? So in a nutshell, this guy went and was like, huh, I wonder if Yeoman will do what I want to do. And he's like, it was too complicated, right? And then he looked at another tool, and it was also just too complicated.

He was like, I just want something that will template out my directories and my files and some of the stuff in them. And so because he couldn't find anything, he created his own thing called Scaffolder. He wrote a little dev.to article on it, and it's really cool, right? Like it's a simple CLI type thing. You can tell it, hey, I want to create a component. It'll go create the files for you and the folder you want it in

and all that kind of stuff. So it gets rid of a lot of the boilerplate code creation garbage that you end up having to do a lot of times on your own. And it versions with your code. So you can save the stuff in your repo. And then when you use it, it can be specific to your repo or you can make it something that works globally. So again,

just somebody that looked at a problem said, Hey, I think I can come up with a good way to solve this. So very nice. Go check it out. And, you know, tell them that you heard about it from us,

you know, and, you know, give them a thumbs up. All right. So this is awesome, but we got to talk about the elephant in the room here on on what i use that expression already once but i'm gonna use it again because have you looked at

this article did you look at this article yeah i read it font's crazy huh right yeah okay i'm glad i'm not the only one no i was gonna bring it up if you didn't oh you're talking about in the pictures yeah he uses a cursive font yeah it's awesome yeah and i'm like whoa why why would i know but you say for the keywords but it's not necessarily always keywords though right like props there i see an example where that's like that's crazy i've never seen anyone that would do that has done that. And now I'm thinking like, do I want to do that? No. Right. Yeah.

You want your cool. I was offended. And then I was like, well, maybe then I was offended again. And now I'm back to maybe. I'm definitely, I'm definitely, I want my, my font to be like as monospaced as possible. You know, like, yeah. so that was interesting that that's the biggest takeaway i have well that's good even though it's not intended intentional because like what he really did create here is awesome but yeah i'm sorry gal i can't i can't i can't do

anything with these guys all right so the other of course have another tip, and I'll try and keep this one as short and concise as possible. So if you get into Docker, we've already said that you should be getting familiar with Docker and probably also Kubernetes, right? And there's been a divide, a disconnect in the world of doing Docker for a while. Like if you needed to spin up multiple services, if you've seen some of Joe Zach's talks or my talks on Kafka or Elasticsearch or anything like that,

we usually have a Docker composed file, right? And the Docker composed file lists out the services that we want to start up. So for me, it might be the Kafka broker, Zookeeper, Elasticsearch, SQL Server, that kind of stuff, right? Well, the disconnect is this. When you go to actually operationalize

that thing in a production world or something, you don't publish a Docker Compose because Docker Compose doesn't keep it running. It just says, hey, this is the state that I want to start up, and that's what it's going to be, right? If for some reason your SQL server crashes or your Kafka broker crashes, nothing's going to restart that, right? Like it's just, hey, go back and start the service again. Hopefully you got a pager on. In a release type world, you're probably going to want to use something like Kubernetes

because it will actually try and maintain the state of an application saying, okay, I need three Kafka brokers up. If one of them dies for some reason, Kubernetes is going to go in and try and resurrect that thing. And by resurrect, actually, I mean, it's going to kill the one that's down and then create a new one and replace it, right? Now, here's the problem. Docker Compose was always the friendly way to do things in a developer environment. But that means that you're setting something up specific to your local development.

So what you're doing locally doesn't match what you plan on deploying out in the world, right? And that's a problem. Well, in the past, it was sort of a pain to try and use Kubernetes locally unless you were just trying to see if it was going to run because it didn't match a, a developer story, right?

Like you couldn't do a Docker build with Kubernetes. It didn't, it didn't exist, right? Whereas Docker compose file, you could say, Hey, when you run this thing,

I want you to run the build on this particular Docker file. And it would do all that. Scaffold marries the two, which is really nice. Um, you know, one of the guys we work with, I call him out, Bobby, he actually set this thing up. And I think Outlaw, you two were probably the ones that talked about it

and brought it to life. And it's beautiful. So you can truly set up this Scaffold environment that will launch a Kubernetes cluster for you. But in the process, you can also have it do Docker builds for you, build up containers, commit those containers, use those containers in your Kubernetes cluster. So you truly get a mixture of, hey,

I want the same thing that I'd be running in a real environment to also launch and run on my local, but have all the dev build goodness that comes along with it. Yeah, so I'm definitely not going to take the credit from Bobby for that. Other than to say I definitely wanted to encourage that we go that route, but he definitely led that effort. But you noticed that you also had two scaffold tips of the week, so that's not confusing at all. One has a K and one's got a C. Yeah, you have scaffolder and scaffold.

Oh, yeah. See, I'm all about the scaffolds this week. I didn't even notice that. Apparently. So, yeah, killer, killer, killer good stuff if you are planning on getting into there. So definitely check those out. All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed the show. good stuff if you are planning on getting into there. So definitely check those out. Alright.

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