Coding Blocks - Team Leadership, TUIs, and AI Lawsuits

Episode Date: July 23, 2023

In this episode, we’re talking about the history of “man” pages, console apps, team leadership, and Artificial Intelligence liability. Also, Allen’s downloading the internet, Outlaw has fallen in love with the sound of a morrvair, and Joe says TUI like two hundred times as if it were a real word. See all the show notes […]

Hey guys, I got a crazy idea. What if, and hear me out, what if the three of us got together randomly, you know, every couple of weeks or so to discuss like software stuff, you know, you have to start a podcast on it. Like, I don't know. You in? Let's do it. I am.

I don't think you are the outlaw. If I remember right, there's a lot of anxiety. I guess I get, I guess I have to be the one that's not then i brought the idea this is this is weird so huh yeah so this is weird episode 214 yeah then um yeah i just you know bringing back a little bit of nostalgia you know i was playing i was playing the part of me in that one uh--huh. No, we'll tell that story one time. We'll revisit that story. No, we definitely

have. The 200th episode, I think. We talked about that? Whatever. Whatever. Fine, whatever. We did it. We're in our 10th year

i think yeah i think this is yeah wait math it's hard yeah we are in our 10th year we haven't completed it yet almost we haven't had our 10th birthday yet yep yeah um same here yeah because i'm 21 um and hey and you know what has happened during that time uh we have outlasted stitcher so you know you're welcome but you can find us on itunes and spotify uh i don't know if we're going to outlive rss or you know we're going to find out but you can visit us at coding box.net where you can find show notes, examples, discussion. And I'm not, I'm not going to say anything else cause I got to leave like a little bit of a cliffhanger there. Cause I know it just bothers Alan. Oh, it drives me crazy. Oh, Hey, do you think that we outlive Spotify though? That,

that might be interesting. Um, well, I guess we'll see, but you can send your feedback questions and rants to comments at coding blocks.net and you can follow us on the twitters at codingblocks yeah and uh we got a website uh codingblocks.net and it's got the social links at the top of the page and maybe we'll add some other stuff to the top of this uh page at uh after the episode yeah i guess i guess we got to add threads in there at some point, right? Hit us up on threads. That's right.

Everything's changing all the time. Real quick though, because we always do this at the end of the episode. Yeah, I know. If you haven't joined the Slack community, you should do that. Go to codingblocks.net slash slack. We always do it at the end of the episode, but if you want to be a part of an amazing group of people in the dev

community, I highly recommend checking that out. All right. So thanks for listening. That's the end of the show. We done. You just said it. Cause that was at the end.

All right, go. That's right. Yeah. We're done. I'll do Zach. I'm Mike. I'm Alan Underwood.

All right. And from, you know, we always like to say thank you to those that left us a review. So I'll keep this short and sweet. So thank you, Michael Mancuso, for leaving us a review on iTunes. It really means a lot to us. We also had some really good feedback in the episode, the discuss threads in some of the recent episodes too. So yeah, thank you all for taking the time.

We really appreciate it. I should have been more prepared and remembered the names of the people. We'll do that next episode. We'll have that on track so that we you know we're a little bit more together yeah all right uh so let's get into it what are we talking about what the heck are man pages yeah so i thought this was kind of fun uh so i've been uh kind of

experimenting a little bit with terminals and just kind of looking around and getting to know bash a little bit better and some of the applications and stuff that are available to me they're really easy to use and script and automate um you know all good stuff but uh it kind of got me thinking about man pages remember man pages yeah so back in the day man pages were your main source of documentation for like bash utilities and stuff and it was man short for manual basically. And the idea was if you want to know how say to phrase a curl command or how to, I don't know,

cassette or something, then you would run man and type in the name of the application set or awkward or whatever. And it would show you a manual that was in a consistent-ish format. It would show you what the arguments were, describe what the application did. Sometimes it would have examples. And it was great.

It used to be the joke was that the only command you needed to know for bash or the only, yeah, I guess command is what we say. It was the only command you needed to know was man. And you could find anything else from there. You can even man man. Really you could find anything else from there. You can even man, man. Really? Yeah, it's pretty great. I didn't know that.

So it got me kind of thinking like, you know, I don't use man anymore. I tend to do dash dash help just by default if I'm working with kubectl or something. So I started thinking about like, you know, why? Why is that? What happened to man pages? Do people still use them? What the heck were they? When you think about it, like if you wrote it.

I've got an opinion on that. Oh yeah. Let's hear it. Well, go ahead and finish your thought. Finish your thought. If you wrote a, yes,

I started thinking about like what the heck they were like, were they bundled with the application somehow? Were they installed somewhere separately? Like what was it? So I just did a little bit of reading on kind of the history of man and like what people are doing now and it would kind of have things have changed and how they're kind of the same. So to your question about do people still use them, though, I think at least for me, and your mileage may vary, but typing man in any command used to be my default default go to, like, that was how I,

how I did everything in those environments. Like if I wanted to learn about like how to use things. And I especially love the examples, uh, that were in there too. You, since you brought that up, I mean, some of, some of them were very well documented, but, um, the Docker fide world that we live in now, where you're trying to create your images to, you know, you're trying to remove all the cruft from your images, uh, to, to get that as small as possible has gotten me into the world now where it's like, okay, if the command is available on this instance that I've been, I'm shelled into, I'm just going to dash dash help because man pages more often than not have been removed. Yeah, that makes sense. It's literally just dead weight for something and you're not going to be using an image in a container.

But you know what drives me crazy. And you definitely don't want to give surface area to any anyone who might get into your container too right so if they didn't already know how to use the command you don't want to like oh here's how you use this command to totally break my system let's help you out no so i do the same thing like i any command is dash dash help right off off the bat that's what i'm doing if that doesn't work because some things don't have it then I'll do man that but I've found and I don't know if you guys see this I found that the man page will usually just take me to a page that doesn't have any more information on it like it's basically useless nowadays um at least for the things that don't already have a dash dash help like I found them to be almost useless as a fallback like at that point you might as well just Google something.

Yeah. I just tried typing man cube cuddle in a windows and you know, in DOS or whatever you call it now. Uh, and it ran the get help. It translated to the get help, uh, command lit and PowerShell.

And then it went out to the internet to try and search for it and couldn't find it. And it gave up, but you know, different things have changed but here's some kind of interesting tidbits about like what man pages were and just like you said those are great reasons i didn't even think about for why they they've kind of gone away a little bit um first of all the internet wasn't as big of a presence like

even downloading or installing applications like there were disks involved, it was a bit of a problem. And so people would need this documentation to be offline because you couldn't rely on being able to quickly look up examples or something. And stuff didn't change as often. It goes back to the days of us having the MSDN library installed. Oh, that was great, yeah. Yeah, you had to have it locally installed. Yep. Disks. Well, until the CDsds came out then you had the option of like you could just leave

the cd in your tray and reference it from there but it's so yeah oh yeah it was so much faster just install them like everyone did that right you know which is crazy but uh back in the day like people used to print out demands like it was part of uh the specification for manual pages like as you know formatting for specifically for printing as people would print it out in binders in the 70s and 80s whatever and and actually have that stuff sitting around so you just kind of flip to it it's pretty crazy to think um a couple other things i thought were cool about him uh so uh there is a directory uh and linux kind of set aside for it it's uh what is it slash usr slash man i think

was so they are separate files that they're formatted using a very specific markup language called roff r-o-f-f which is pretty awkward but it was kind of funny it's not that far off of like what you might think of them as a markup language it would have like uh sections so you might have like a dot s1 heading might be like a dot h1 dot h2 and it was not like headings like you know it's more of a numbering system so you can know like this is the 17th header not like h1 h2 like an html so it's just pretty cool so the most common way to to create these things is basically just do it in vim and then uh you know there's some formatters and some tools for kind of helping because uh apparently it's supposed to be a pretty big pain in the butt to keep things formatted

uh well enough because they had to you know it was designed back when printing was common so yeah i just thought it's pretty cool uh people still use them they're not really like we mentioned you know help uh is much more common and the internet and things get updated much more often and yeah you know just we have the internet access which get updated much more often. And yeah, you know, the, just, we have the internet access, which is so much easier and we have to, uh, we're more concerned with like this space and things like that for things

used, especially in images and whatnot. So would you create one? Would you create a new one for anything you're doing? If I was big at a command line, you tell you, I probably would just cause the cool factor, you know,

the retro vibe. Uh, but yeah, but you'd still do the help prompt as well right oh yeah for sure dash dash help yeah yeah yeah i'll actually like i'll do dash dash help that don't work i'll try dash h or dash question mark i'll try just typing help so i guess here's the next question though so let's let's say that you did do your dash dash help um to where it'll spit out the documentation for you or whatever. Would you do your man page any different? Like would you add stuff to it or would you just basically make it a copy of

whatever you had spit out in the help? It does have some pretty specific like formatting rules. It's kind of oddly like there were some parts for like you're here, where your system calls go here for things for the users here, where your arguments are supposed to go, but it's largely convention. So you could, I'm sure, generate it somehow. Yeah, I don't know.

I think I just wanted to refund it. But basically, you just create a file and shove it in the folder. I mean, I've seen where the dash dash help is largely the same as the man page, but the man page would include things like bugs and authors and things like that, that might not be in a dash dash help output,

but in terms of like, you know, the basic description and parameters and, uh, maybe examples, maybe examples. Yeah. That's kind of cool to think of like someone wrote a program to sit

alongside all your other programs and kind of act as a manual form. So it was, it was this kind of a cool thing that was, it was external to your program and it let things be documented in a, you know, somewhat uniform consistent fashion. And I always thought it was a really consistent. I actually thought maybe they were enforcing some sort of strict

formatting rules, but there's just kind of style guidelines. Yeah, but also there's multiple language support too, though, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you have that going on. Yeah, back in the day, man, people

do what they're doing. That's very cool. You's not everything. Yeah. Back in the day, man, people do what they're doing. That's very cool. Yeah, it's like, you know, 50 years ago. Are we back to the 70s again? Here we go. Is it really that old? The 70s did everything. Yeah.

It's like when you can fit documentation or all your applications in a binder. Holy smokes. The Unix Programmer's Manual was first. Oh, wait. No, that's the Programmer's Manual. I searched when were man pages created, and it says November 3, 1971. But then it says the Unix Programmer's Manual. So I don't think that's it.

Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I found 70s. I didn't see the exact year on it, though. But I've got a couple links here. So if you want to create a man page for some reason, or if you've got an application,

you think it might work. They've got two links. One is for just general instruction. The other one's the formatting guide. I'm playing. I'm playing around with like the format of it. It looks like it's also stored in a zipped format. Oh,

interesting. So it's like, it's like unzipping that on the fly to read it so but then other than that sorry it is like a old school kind of like looking at the raw version of it because that's why i wanted to see i wanted to see it in the raw do you remember um what were they called like word processors do you remember the old school word processors where like if you wanted to make something bold right you had like put in the code to start bold here in bold there it was like the precursor to html except not nearly as fun when you were done

because all you had was something that printed nice right um now i obviously wasn't around to see these, so I don't know what that looks like, but I heard about them, but that's what, that's what I imagine this looks like. See what I did there. Um, but yeah, so I mean this, that's what the format reminds me of. That's very cool. Yeah. So, so basically there is a little article talking about it. It said the first ever Unix document, the Unix programmers manual was published on November 3rd, 1971. And they wrote it at the request of their manager who was trying to figure out how to do this stuff. Right.

And it was, it became the first of many binders to serve as documentation for the early iterations of Unix. And they said that is basically what led into the creation of these man pages. So, yeah. Okay, so we're still not really sure when. Not exactly when they came about, but this sort of was the inspiration for it. So pretty interesting.

Somebody's boss couldn't figure out how to use it, and they were like, oh, gosh. I need some information. Okay, look. Here's what we've done for you. Right? Just type in man for any command, and you'll figure it out. That's pretty cool. So I found a little bit more on the date.

So they say they don't know when the date was. People just started using it. No one's really sure exactly what the exact date was. But it was available inside bell labs in 71 and then in the early 70s kind of spread outside of their specific you know building or whatever it's very cool people saw a need yeah bell labs crazy we know somebody from there that's right we do all right what's up next who's got do we not say the name i thought somebody would say you totally can go ahead i was trying to give like a little subtle shout out to jim but you know yeah whatever

well he's gone now he left them yeah yeah he left it behind he started with them yeah um all right so done with the man pages right yep yep so uh i wanted to share with you guys i i'm so disappointed you guys aren't reading this book and we can't go into it in detail so i wanted to give you a primer so this has been my latest obsession right here this is is an O'Reilly book. It's like 8 billion pages long. You're selling it so well, man. It's got a flamingo on it. Did I mention that? It's got a flamingo. It's called Software Engineering at Google, Lessons Learned from Programming Over Time. So basically, if you rough it, Google's roughly 25 ish years old now, somewhere in that ballpark, give or take.

And this is, this is a collection of, uh, bits of information, like how Google has managed to work with like a company that is mostly almost entirely made up of software developers or engineers, you know?

And so how they have managed like large code repository, a single mono code repository. And, and then not only have a team of so many engineers that need access to these things, but things that they've done to like make things consistent across the teams, uh, places where they don't bother with cost versus those where they do.

And, um, the, you know, the evolution of maintaining that soft, that same software for those last 25 years and the lessons learned along the way. So, um, I thought, well, for one, I'll give you a quick example of like what I meant by like where they didn't bother to cut costs or, you know, where

they didn't care. Uh, one of the things that I thought was super interesting about one of the stories in here, they were talking about how, have you ever, I, and I know the answer is yes. Have you ever worked for a company where let's say you needed a new power supply for your computer, because maybe the one that was shipped with your computer didn't provide enough wattage.

And so your computer was constantly, uh, you know, dead, right. Or, or thepu was like being throttled because of it right or maybe you need a new mouse or whatever right and and your company had a procurement process that you had to go through to get that new item right and it was a

real pain because you'd have to like go fill out. First, you had to find out how to do it. Then you go fill it out. Then you had to get approvals for it. And then maybe three weeks later, you get it, right? And Google was like, we're not wasting the time and money on putting, A, putting that system into place. B, hiring and staffing the people required to do all that. Instead, there's a closet of that stuff over there. You need it?

Just go get it. And we don't think that you're going to steal that kind of thing, you know, because we hope that we hired people who, like, don't care to steal that sort of thing. And also you're being compensated enough that you don't care to steal that sort of thing. But, you know, we're not going to waste our time on that kind of thing. Like that's, we don't care about that mouse or that power supply, right? Like we're trying to solve bigger problems at scale. I thought that was kind of a

neat approach, uh, you know, a way, a neat way to think about things. So, um, so that's the, that's the teaser to the teaser because what i really wanted to talk about was this one particular section of a chapter or yeah it's a chapter yeah right called how to lead and it had uh there was there was this one section on anti-patterns that i thought like oh i think i think everyone could agree on some of these things that Google has called out. But the main premise of what this section was calling out and how to lead is that at some point, more often than not, as you go through your software developer career, you're going to move up right oh and they make a they

make a strong distinction between like engineer versus uh you know programmer all right like a software engineer versus a programmer was interesting too but um so your software engineering well like if you were to think of a program as something that you're just going to like write once and forget and not have to worry about, that's programming. Software engineering is something that you need to worry about, like how you maintain and how you scale and things like that. Like you have larger, it's going to be longer lived. You have architectural concerns, you know, things like that to worry about. So I don't want to do that.

It's not programming. You want to be a programmer? I want to be a programmer. Yeah, we all got into programming because we're like this is fun and then they're like okay welcome to software engineering you're like what happened yeah so um but at any rate so so the anti-patterns to how to lead a team so you're going to have to you know more often than not go through uh you know the evolution of having to manage people at some point in your career.

They also did call out, though, that you shouldn't feel like you have to force somebody. Some people are happy to never do that, and you should not feel forced to do it, but you should also try to find the ones who do and give them those opportunities, right? So one of the first anti-patterns that they talk about in regards to how to lead is hiring pushovers, right? So let me put this little cheat here in the notes for you. So hiring pushovers. So if all you do is hire people who are basically, like you've heard heard the expression like you're just looking for a yes man. Right. Like you've heard that expression.

Right. Then that's that would be a pushover. Right. Like if if you surround yourself by people who are just going to agree with you all the time and never push back on anything you say, then you're not going to succeed. As well. Right. then you're not going to succeed as well, right? Because the whole point that they make in this chapter two is that, you know, the team, you're trying, you want that team to be an extension of you, right? Like you're trying to like collectively do something, build something,

achieve something, right? And you yourself can't do it. And that's why you recognize like, hey, it's time to step up to that leadership role. I'm going to have these people, you know, that are reporting to me, helping me accomplish X, Y, and Z. And if they're never going to, you know, fight back on any of your architectural decisions or whatever, right? It's not going to be successful. What do you think of that one?

I find that true. Yeah, that's great. I don't know. That was a pushover for you guys. I mean, it's legit. All right. Well,

that wasn't quite the discussion I thought it would be. All right. On the flip side though you don't necessarily want to hire um so you don't want pushovers but you also don't want to hire people that are just going to be um combative on everything right yeah yeah anyone can poke a hole in anything if they really wanted to you know it's easy to shoot stuff down all day long yeah yeah totally i'll buy that for a dollar. Sure.

I thought that was going to be more discussion. Now you know how it feels, right? That feels good, doesn't it, Alan? Hey, look. If you want to make this more like real life, you've got to call me brah after everything you say. That's what my son says now every time. Hey, brah.

I'm like, no, dude. You're my son. I'm your dad hey bro i'm like no dude you're my son i'm your dad there'll be none of this bro you got to put a little bass in your voice when you say it to you right like no i'm your dad so yeah wait wait are you saying there's no bass in my voice no no you just put a little extra in there whenever you're talking to your kid like that right all right so so number two on on anti-patterns edition of how to lead a team ignoring low performers yeah i thought i'd get you at this one the main idea i don't want to talk about this i didn't mean i that wasn't directing this to you but no no i mean i was pointing at the screen i was just pointing at my that's okay that's weird but you're like dodging his finger

so so the the main idea here though is that you can you can as a manager uh you know as a team lead you can think that like oh i'll you know, put my head in the sand and the problem will go away. That person will eventually, you know, get better or whatever. And like, you know, I'm not going to do anything about it now. But they said the problem becomes that person because that person isn't pulling their weight or, uh, you know, whatever, whatever, however you deem them as a low performer, whatever metric you use, it might make you feel better as the manager to not do anything, but the rest of your team will definitely know that that person is the low performer because they're going to have to make up

for it to pull to pull that person along right it's basically like dead weight in the canoe right like i gotta paddle more because you won't right and and so because of that it ends up bringing down the team morale as a result of leaving that person around. 100%. The thing that I found interesting about it was just more like how they were calling it out. Like, Oh yeah, I'd never thought about it like that,

but that is so critical. It's so key. You know, like you have to address the situation. Yeah. Like a handful of bullet points. This is in there. Like that's super telling.

Yeah. So man, you know know this one's tough though because now he wants to discuss yeah i don't even want to discuss it this one's frustrating right like this one's hard because it really does i mean we've all seen it it will bring down the morale of a team when everybody else is having to pick up somebody else's slack right like if you've watched survivor and the weak person on the team's getting drug along it it frustrates everybody the thing that's different though in as opposed to like a game show like survivor or something is you don't care if somebody gets kicked off the team right it's different in a work environment though because you might like somebody and they may be a low performer but keeping them on the team isn't necessarily the right answer, but like firing somebody and, and,

and putting somebody's livelihood, um, basically out in the wind is hard, right? Like that's, that's not easy, but I mean, when, when it's business, like, I mean, I guess the way that you have to think about it, and this is like when you brought it up, all these things are rushed through my head. If you were to start a small business and you needed everybody on your team to perform because you're bootstrapping this small business, if you've got three people on the team and one's not pulling the weight, are you going to keep them around? They'll sink your business, right? So when you're in a corporate environment, you know, there's thousands of people in the building. So you don't think that one person is necessarily doing it, but it does have that effect on your team. And so you can't allow that to permeate and get in everybody's head.

It's a frustrating thing, right? Yeah. And like I said, it'll totally bring down the morale of everybody. Now that said, that brings me into the number three anti-pattern though, which is you as the manager, you can't ignore human issues,

right? Yeah. So I mean, I kind of viewed these as kind of going, these can go in hand, hand in hand, like depending on whatever the situation is. So,

you know, if you have, if you have an employee that, you know, is going through, uh, something in the family, family life kind of thing where like it,

anyone get point in our time, right. During our professional career, you know, you've heard of the whole work life balance thing. Right. And there's going to be times where like, maybe that pendulum swings a little bit more towards the work side and other

times where it needs to swing a little bit more towards the, the life side. Right. So like, you know, if you picture, like if you were trying to adopt a child, like all of the things that might be required of you and all the time commitments

that, you know, where your time might be taken away. Right. So you can't, as the manager, you have to be aware of those, of those human issues that are going on for the members of your team and, and not overlook them, especially like in the way that you talk to them. Cause just the things that you might say in any given one situation, like, you know, your choice of wording could come off harsh if you're not like keeping in

mind, whatever they have going on right and this is this is a good one too because i think if you if you do take into consideration the human aspect of of everybody's life right if if somebody has somebody that's sick in the family, or like you said, you're adopting a child or somebody's graduating or kids going off to college or whatever, right? I think this is where you as a manager, as somebody who leads a team can actually almost develop super employees, right? Because if you can show somebody some compassion in times that are harder like that, in times that are trying for people or just,

you know, exciting times that are taking their attention away, those people, if they were good employees in the first place, right? Like we're not talking about the bad employee, but if they were good employees in the first place and they see that you were given that leeway to be able to deal with the things or work on the things you needed to, they're probably going to come back even stronger, right? Like there's a loyalty now that you've created this bond to where people are going to go out of their way to do even more. Yeah.

And this is why I say they kind of, that kind of in my mind kind of played hand in hand with the's going on and like, you know, OK, I understand. Like, we'll let it slide. I know this is going to pass. Or maybe I don't know that what's going on and I can't ignore that low performer. So let's have the discussion with them. And maybe during then I'll learn that like, oh, there's this major thing going on in their life that is, you know, why they might be a low performer at the moment. And I know it'll pass, right? So those two play hand in hand in my mind.

I totally agree. To piggyback on that a little bit too, though, you as the manager, it's your job. You can't necessarily go share that information with your team, right? But talking about the morale of the team being low because somebody's being a low performer you do at least want to be like hey there's some things going on you know just let people know that that there's a reason why something's happening right like i see that you guys might be frustrated with, with so-and-so, but just know that they've got some stuff going on. So, you know,

please just give them some slack. Right. Well, I think even in that situation though, like, I think you would technically have to walk that, you know, that on, you know, like a thin ice, because that person might not want you to even share that information um you know because depending on what's going on it might like make something aware you know to the rest of the team like i'm trying to think of like what an example of that might be but you know you can all kinds of regulations so yeah i can think of anything like health related or

stuff like there's all sorts of reasons why you maybe not don't want people to know anything and sometimes like just a little hint is enough for people to say oh i bet yeah just be awkward it's like especially with like people who have family at the workplace or you know there's you know there's all sorts of reasons i mean you you mentioned health like i i've had co-workers in the past that were going through cancer treatments, right? And in the early stages, as long as they could hold off, they didn't want anybody to know what was going on. And you completely understand. So that's the type of situation where, to what you were saying, Alan, where I'm thinking you might not always be able to do that.

You might just have to grin and bear it. Well, or if somebody complains about that person, be like, hey, you know, I've handled it. Right. Just just let them know that, hey, there might be some things for a little while, but just know that I'm aware of it. I hear you. Yes, I'm aware of it. I'm not blind to this. Yeah.

You know, just know that i hear you and i'm already working with them something like that yeah and but i would i would say i would recommend like you don't do it as like a team meeting like hey i'm aware of this and take care of it like you would handle it on a one-on-one like as somebody approached you like hey i don't like how alan's slacking off lately. Oh, well, we know that, you know, he's a slacker. Well, I mean, and also, I guess just to sort of close the loop on that a little bit too is, you know, have a discussion with your HR

department before you actually do anything if it's necessary, right? I don't know. As a manager. They're not there for you. HR is not for you. If you are you a person, thenr is not for you so please explain jay-z you're a human they're there to protect the interest of the company oh you're not there for humans i don't care what anyone says i've heard enough stories and seen the bad things and

seen few enough good things come out of talking with hr hr is not for humans wasn't there like a recent uh uh tv show episode where like i'm trying to remember what show it was where like there there was a lawyer there and the employee was like okay so you're here for me he's like um i'm here with hr and like okay so you're here like now i'm here to protect the company yeah if there was a division in your company dedicated to protecting you and your rights and your needs it wouldn't be called human resources now would it it'd be called a union all right so um all right so number four on this list now this is where like alan you were talking about like well the person's your friend, blah, blah, blah.

So anti pattern on how to be a team lead. Number four is being everyone's friend. Because. It's fine to to like have have friendly relationships with people, you know, they're not saying that you don't. But. Going back to that low performer type of issue, right, you can, they're not saying that you don't, but going back to that low performer type of issue, right? You can't just like, let your friendship be like, well, I can't let, I can't, you know, reprimand so-and-so or whatever, right? Like, you know, because of friendships, right? So Google specifically called that out as like, you know, bad. You can be cordial.

You can be friendly. But yes, you cannot try and be everybody's friend. Yeah, I mean, the way they put it is they said you can lead a team and build consensus without being a close friend of your team. Yeah. Right. And that kind of sucks. It's,

but it's gotta be aware of it, right? Because there's business and then there's, there's the friendships and you got to keep those separate to a certain degree. Well, and it's also hard to though. I mean,

like think about it of all the people in your life. Like you spend the vast majority of your awake life with coworkers, right? More than family and whatnot. You spend so much time out of the week with coworkers. So it's hard to not develop friendships with those people. And that happens even if you are the, the team leader, the manager, right? Like you can't help it. So, you know, they're, they're not, uh, you know, saying that like, that's never going to happen. Right. But you don't have to let that stand in your way. Right. Right. Don't let it impact your business decisions that need to take place okay now this one oh shoot i deleted it it's disappeared so that one has disappeared from us

it's dead to us we don't care about it doesn't count all right okay so this one no this one you're going to love and this one especially reminded me of some place that i'm sure you're going to mention. Andy pattern number five is compromise the hiring bar. And I see you shaking your head. Yeah, but it's true though, right? Like,

I mean, I, I get, I get what they're saying, right? And you're like, you don't have to like it, but, um,

they had a quote in here from Steve jobs where they said, a people hire other, a people, B people hire C people. Like, you don't have to like it, but they had a quote in here from Steve Jobs where they said, A people hire other A people. B people hire C people. Right? Okay. So, okay. All right.

This one bugs me because what is the bar based on, I guess? Like, if you're talking about just pure technical chops, that's, that's easy, right? Like that's, that's easy to say this person did better on this particular question, this person, right? Okay, fine. But there's so many intangibles that come with hiring somebody that you're going to have to work with every single day that this really bugs me because it can completely ignore things like personality, right? Like does the person listen? Well, does, does the person interact? Well, do they communicate? Well, do they, do they problem solve? Well, right? Like it's so many times, at least in our path, it's usually such a technical thing, right? Like,

Hey, whiteboard this problem. Oh, they killed it. All right, done. And they rose the bar. They, they kept the bar as high as what it needed to be and maybe raised it an inch. Right? So that's how a lot of hiring happens. And that's how a lot of not hiring happens instead of, wow, this person's really resourceful. I asked them something and they prodded with the right questions and got somewhere. So I don't know, man, like this one bugs me. And I guess it really depends on what that bar is based on. Think of it this way. Think of the Fang

Do we call them Fang anymore? I guess now you've got to call them Mang. How do you get Microsoft in there twice though? I'm like, the Mang. For Mang. How do you get Microsoft in there twice, though? Or how do you get M in there twice for Microsoft? Mang, Meta, Microsoft, whatever. Oh, that's right. Is Meta still in there?

Wouldn't Meta be in there? Whatever. The point that I'm trying to get to, though, is that you think of those companies, right? And those companies are just always think of those companies, right? And like those, those companies are just always scouting for talent, right? And then once they get talent, once they get somebody, then they'll figure out like where to slot them into the company, right? Now think of the, the inverse of that. You work for, you work on a team and you're like, hey, we need to open up a rec for a new hire, right? And you get, say, 100 applications, 100 resumes, and you sift through that 100 resumes.

And you're like, okay, I've narrowed it down to these three candidates. Out of the 100, these are the three best candidates from that hundred. Right. And then you ultimately pick one of those. The point that they're making in this section is, okay, so you picked one out of a hundred. That doesn't necessarily mean that that person is, is, is a good hire. That person is not necessarily, uh, you know, a good fit, a good hire, knows what they're doing. None of that. It just means that you said, well, out of the 100 options that I had,

this was the least bad choice. And the point that they make is that while at the time it's easy to think that, hey, that's the right decision to make and let's move on. It can be a heck of a lot more costly to introduce that person, to bring that person onto the team, the effects that they might bring down the rest of the team, problems that they might introduce into it, and then all the cost and trouble that you have to go through to try to get rid of that person. Right? So the, the, the money that you've incurred during that entire process until they, until you get rid of them is a heck of a lot more than if you had just, you know, been on the lookout for good talent. And as soon as you see him, you're like, Hey, you know what? I don't know where I'm going to fit this person in the company yet, but that's a good fit that that person, I want that person

in the company. Let's make that person an offer offer and that's the point they're making about don't compromise the hiring bar i think it works great for big companies but it's kind of weird to think of like small teams being like look let's just hire whenever we have good people and we'll find the place for them if you're barely making payroll you're getting started you know that's tougher yeah you've got like 60 000 employees you know hiring one or two whenever when you see one, like no problem. Sure. Well, I guess here's my point before you sort of described a little bit more is I've seen

people that were quote unquote bar raisers and they turned out to be terrible. Right. And, and I guess that's where I'm going is as long as the bar is an all encompassing type thing, because I think hiring anybody blindly, cause that's really, let's be honest, right? That's kind of what you're doing. Anytime you make a hire based off a few interactions with somebody you're hiring on a gut feel and an initial, an initial check, right? But if you're not taking into consideration all the things, then I think your bar is already compromised, I guess is where I'm going because I have, I have seen several people that were bar raisers that did great on certain sections. They get in and it's like, they couldn't think

themselves out of a wet paper sack. And it's like, yo, this is, why are we spending so much time on a simple problem? Can we please move forward? Right. And that's the kind of stuff that you can't even know until you've seen somebody in action. I personally, I mean, thinking about this, right. I think this for me, I've always thought that the hiring process, especially for technical positions, is somewhat broken. Like, forcing, I mean, the three of us, we to perform differently because some of us have different pressures sitting down, being tested, being looked at under a microscope, that kind of thing. To me, for a technical position, I think that the trial to hire thing is a way better way to do it. Contract to hire?

Yeah. 30 to 60 day, 30 to 90 day contract to hire. Come in, let's see what you got. If we like you, I'm not even going to put you through this grueling interview process. I know your chops now. I've seen you. I've seen you in action. I've seen how you interact with the team. I've seen all this. Now you can save yourself a lot of time and frustration.

You still have that initial interview to see if they even look like they should be there, right? in frustration. You still have that initial interview to see if they even look like they should be there. Right. But then you actually get to see how they operate before you decide, okay, we want you to be a full-time employee and, and hang out with the rest of the team. Right. Yeah. I mean, I agree. I think you and I have talked about this before. Like I've never, I've never understood why the contract to hire isn't like the de facto standard in our industry, but even as you were talking, I was thinking like, you know, even outside of our industry, like temps, that's a thing, right? You know, a lot, a lot of companies will, will use, uh, uh, I don't know if that, if that translates to outside of the U S but temps would be like a temporary employee where like there are, there are staffing agencies where if you just, if you had, Oh,

we mentioned, okay, well we didn't mention pregnancy, but let's say you had, you had you are a small company and you have someone, one of your employees is going on maternity leave and is going to be gone for, you know, let's say six, eight weeks, whatever the time might be. It's a short enough time that you don't want to like hire someone permanently, but you need somebody to fill that vacancy. And in this contrived example, let's say that it is something that you could easily, you

know, like maybe it's a receptionist, right? So you could easily bring somebody else in, you want to when the other when the other person comes back that's the person you still want to be there right um so so even that is a thing outside of our industry to where like a lot of companies you know will for certain jobs they'll bring in a temp and if like that person, then they'll make them an offer to, you know, if they wanted to stay. Right. And I just have never understood why, why that's not the de facto standard across the board. Like, I think that, like you said, the hiring process, uh, you know, it's, it almost feels like it's gotten so ridiculously competitive. You know,

it's, it's like, uh, it's real easy to feel, to feel defeated before you even get started in it. You know what I mean? Um, because of how,

how rigorous it can be. And it's like, well, you know, it's been a minute since I got my degree or doctorate or whatever it might be. Right. So you're like, I don't remember that equation off the top of my head. So I guess I, you know, there's no way I'll be able to do that. So it can, it can be, what's the word? This,

no, not going to help. Just in franchising. No, disgusting. Okay. No disheartening. Maybe disheartening.

I think that's what you're going for. Um, before you even get started. So, so I guess the compromise in the hiring bar, I don't disagree with it. I don't think you should hire subpar talent just because, you know,

you had no better options. Um, but I do think the tiring process is broken in general for a lot of these companies i mean yeah to to the point that you both made like i get why for the the fang or mang or mam ganga that whatever that jay-z said i get why for those companies like they can afford to to do this they can afford to always be hiring right um but to jay-z's point you know there's there's eight of you and you're looking for one more developer like you need someone who's really skilled at like

you know html and css and javascript like front-end kind of technologies and you know i don't care if they know how to how a bubble sort works right right like i don't want to hear they don't need to tell me that you know uh a radix sort would be better than a more merge sort better than whatever like i don't care you know just this is what i i have this drawing like we had we we our designer drew this this is what I, I have this drawing. Like we had it. We, we, our designer drew this. This is what we're trying to make it look like and how we want it to interact.

And if you could help me implement that goal. Right. Right. So yeah, totally. Um, and, you can,

you can pick apart my examples. They hit me up at Joe on Slack and I'll, I'll respond. Yeah. All right. So the last one in the anti-pattern section for how to be a team lead is treat your team like children. So if you, as the manager or the team lead, have to handhold and baby your team the whole way and coddle them the whole way through, right? You're not helping anyone. You're wasting everybody's time, right? And to your point

earlier, Alan, about like building that kind of loyalty, you know, because you did understand their human issues that they had going on at that time of their life. You can also, this section makes the point that you can also create those types of bonds by giving your team members some leeway, like give them some, some, you know, some room to make mistakes and, and, you know, try things and whatever, you know, on their own without, you know, being all up in their grill 24 seven, like, Hey, what you're doing? Like, Oh, here's how you should do this. Or here's how you should do that. You know, on their own without, you know, being all up in their grill 24 seven, like, Hey, what'd you do? And like, Oh, here's how you should do this. Or here's how you should do that. You know, I concur. I don't, I matter of fact, I can't stand, um, micromanaging, which is kind of what this feels like in, you know, in a nutshell, I don't like it.

I don't like doing it. I don't like it being done to me. And, and honestly, I think if somebody needs to be micromanaged, that's a problem and you don't necessarily, I think they're probably a low team performer. Yeah. Back to step two. Yeah, exactly. Well, they, they also refer to it as like, if you, if you treat your, your team like that, you're basically telling them like, I don't trust you to do this on your own. So you need me to hold your hand. And so whether or not it comes across that way immediately or not, like eventually that member or members, they're going to like start to feel that. Right. Like I can't even be trusted to do xyz so why bother i'll just

wait until so-and-so's back in the office and we'll do it together or i'll you know tell him what needs to be done or whatever right you know you know i'm saying like that kind of that kind of disappointment it's going to you're going to hear that well if if somebody gets to that point because the manager feels like they have to do that then the manager's probably keeping a low performer around and should be addressing that in a different way anyways no no it doesn't have to be a low performer though these these things don't have to go together you it's just the managers need you know need to like handhold every everyone everyone. Yeah. You don't want that type of manager period anyways. Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah. Um, I'll leave you with one last thought on, on this book and every one of the things that they said that they did going back to like efficiencies and, and, uh, you know, not wasting time on certain things. Um, once you were a Googler, right? Any of the buildings you go to, your access is the same. Your Wi-Fi is the same. How you reserve the conference room down the hall is the same. Make it easy.

Yeah. I was like, oh, that's pretty neat. They made it a point to where all of the, all of the buildings are just treated the same, right? That makes sense. It's kind of like the, you know, like that whole thing about like,

uh, you know, don't, I think it was from one of the, maybe from the SRE book about treating your, your servers like cattle rather than pets, you know? And so they're just treating their buildings like cattle and they're all the

same. Makes total sense. Hey, we missed something in the news. Jay-Z, you're speaking soon somewhere. Uh, so August,

uh, tentatively planned to speak at, uh, at, uh, the group, the group of Orlando don't have a date yet. Not totally confirmed yet,

but that is the plan. Okay. All right, good. So I guess that's really soon in it. I just think I'm going to get on. It's coming up in the next 30 plan. Okay. All right. Good. I guess that's really soon, isn't it? Yeah, it's coming up in the next 30 days. Yeah, and DevFest is coming up

in Orlando, too. See DevFest FL. It's really cool. It features speakers from the Central Florida area, but also international. And so we've got to save the day for October 14th. I'll have a link in the show notes. Cool. Love it. So, yeah,

with that, if you haven't left us a review, we would greatly appreciate it. If you did, you can find some helpful links at www.net slash coding box. Wait, no. Hmm.

Slash coding box. Dot net, WW net slash reviews. Go to slack slash slack. It hurts. Joe. Perfect. It hurts. Nailed it. use go to slack slash slack it hurts joe add on perfect it hurts nailed it first try all right so with that we will head into my favorite portion of the show i guess we should just call it like the game show section but yeah yeah this is coding jeopardy block 30 sounds just like it right there yeah okay

so this is what episode 14 214 so jay-z according to tako's trademark rules of engagement you go first yes your choices are we're going to score the same way we did last time where uh it's just literally like you know if you get it one point if you don't zero point um but with a chance to steal so okay alan alan could could potentially take the seal so here's your here's your list of topics the terminal list science science fiction, go blue, a league of their own, Americana, or the after party, where each response comes slightly after party in the dictionary. Oh, that's funny. So you're saying science fiction. For sure.

All right. dictionary oh that's funny so you're saying science fiction for sure all right so level let's just do these like you want levels one through five five being the hardest so five so the 500 question i think no so i think what should happen is so we said you get a point i think if you go for five you get five points you go one you get one point that way it actually encourages you to think about whether you want the easiest or the hardest. So I like it. So do you want to do?

No, no, no, no. Cause here, cause this is the same reason why we didn't do the money in the beginning. Because if you went five on the first round and you got it, you have zero incentive to do anything.

Not each round should just be one through five. And then that way you have a chance to come back. Yeah. And then, and in that second round if if the opponent doesn't get it you don't even have to try in the third round yeah it's kind of weird i still think that there should be some sort of incentive for getting by keeping the points equal you're incentivized to keep going listen man this is my stupid made-up game all right It's your game. All right. I'll stop.

All right. My bad. All right. So science fiction, the 500 level, the $500 question for one point. Okay. Like this author, Lord Dorwin, in his Foundation series, has an impressive pair of sideburns. So we're looking for the author's name? Like this author. Okay. Who is Sir Isaac Asimov?

Ooh, Jay-Z with a point. Commanding, too. Are you kidding me? Got his title in there, too. You like that? Yeah. He's also a point. Commanding, too. Are you kidding me? I got his title on there, too. You like that? Yeah. He's also a doctor. Very good.

All right. Do you call him Sir Doctor? Doctor Sir. Wow. All right, then. Okay. So, Alan, here are your topics. Your categories.

Ancient Rome, 21 or under, what are you afraid of? Celebrity memoirs, stars, or they're just like us. You'll find U.S. in each response. They're just like us. All right. You'll find U S in each response. They're just like us. All right. And a level one, two,

three, four, or five, three little pride, little pride, little pride. Okay. The name of this Bible book is from the Greek for a going out? Leviticus.

Joe, do you care to take the steal? No. The correct answer is Exodus. Oh, wow. Should have gotten it. Doesn't sound like it. I mean, I guess it does.

A going out? Exodus. Doesn't sound like it. I mean, I guess it does. Going out? Exodus? Doesn't that sound? It sounds like it. Yep, yep. All right. To me, Exodus sounds like a band name. See, and this is why you're still incentivized to fight for it, right, Alan?

Because there's still a chance you could get the tie here. Yeah, I could have gone for five, gotten five gotten five points well I found out I was wrong uh so Isaac Asimov was not a sir I don't know where I got that from oh so he got it wrong well respectfully we call him well you know yes sir sir that's right yeah dang that's why you ever try to figure out how do you call someone who's both sir and a doctor turns out he's not yeah but what's the important and what's the answer to the important question here? What do you do in that situation? You call someone who is a sir.

I would guess that one of them would dominate. So the sir would probably be. I think doctor would be the one that dominates, right? No, sir. It's not used in combination with the knighthood. Knighted doctors are addressed as knights. So they still may use any post-nominal letters associated with their degrees after so they'll be sir blah comma md right okay um so jay-z here you go this is your chance to like get the more demanding commanding win here. Your categories are 1992

in books, 30 years ago. Oh, that will. Okay. I should say that this originally aired like, you know, last year. So that's why it's 30 years ago. Words of love in the park, food and drink,

technology, or a, well, this one ain't going to work a long run on TV with Ken Jennings. Uh, it says I'm Ken Jennings in 2004. I suddenly found out what a long run on TV is like, and I'll have clues about some other famous ones. Interesting. Interesting.

Is that the president winning? Basically like long running. Ken Jennings was the winningest ever on Jeopardy. Yeah. He's now one of the co-hosts. Yes. Although I do want to know what 1992 is. I think I have to go with technology just because of this podcast.

But I don't feel so confident so I'm going to go with the third one. Okay. And it was 92, not 82. Oh, yeah. The better. Here we go. The year.

The third level question from technology. The incarnation of a Hindu deity or the incarnation of you for virtual interaction? Avatar. There you go, an avatar. Thanks, we got up to five. Gone it. That was an option, Jay-Z. Guys, this is so easy.

I don't know why. I'm back on my losing streak. I got to do math again here. It looks like... I didn't do it in the form of a question, though. Divide by pi. Alan, you got a zero. Yeah, pi didn't affect it much, did it?

Yeah. So, yeah. All right. So, what's the next topic that you got? Oh, hey. So, you know, I mentioned kind of being on a kick for like console stuff and scripting and bashing and whatever. And I just happened today to see something on Hacker News where somebody recommended a 2E for Docker. A 2E.

Bless you. Please. Yes. No one's going to say, what the heck's a Tooey? Yeah, yeah. What the heck is a Tooey, sir? What the heck is a Tooey? So Tooey is a cute name given to apps that are user

interfaces designed for the console. So canines is a perfect example of what they're calling a Tooey now. This is nothing new, by the way. This is just kind of a cute kind of trend. But it's basically applications that are meant to be long-lived that you interface with, you know, like a long-lived program as opposed to something like a curl that's designed to do its thing and exit and, you know, can be piped into other stuff. So these are specifically, we're specifically talking about like user interfaces that you would interact with on the terminal. So we've talked about canines many times.

It's a tool for managing Kubernetes. You type in the command, it fires up, it finds your context. You can drill into them. You can go look at your pods, your services. You can interact with them and inspect them. And it keeps kind of state of what's going on in the background and does some polling. And yeah, it's really nice.

But I found one I mentioned for Dockercker we're gonna have a bunch of links in the show uh called lazy docker and if you find the link down there in the show notes line 102 and take a look at this git repo it's uh just scroll down a little bit i want you to see the logo to the can i not click it it It's not because it's not clickable. Oh yeah. It's not garbage. I got it. I got it.

Boom. I just made it better for everybody. Okay. Nice. So how would you describe that logo? Uh, sleeping well with the Docker containers. That's pretty awesome. Throughout. That's pretty awesome.y docker though laney yeah and so it's pretty funny it looks like almost like a

child's drawing in like ms paint of a docker but they use the letters with like the you know most basic arial font and it looks terrible looks like it was done in like negative five minutes somehow uh but but below that on the git repository which will have linked our actual gifs of what it looks like when you run this thing i've actually installed this thing too and what it is is it's just like we said it's a terminal app so it's the application with these little kind of sections that runs inside your uh you know terminal like iterm or you know command what command or whatever you use windows terminal and it lets you kind of

bump around and look at things like what resources are being used and look at your logs and you can shut down your containers that are running all from this command line interface and it looks kind of janky right because it's using things that are available in a terminal so there are lines and you know things that you can do with like unicode characters you know there's a couple cute glyphs but for the most part it's just text in like little areas but you know what's interesting about this one compared to a lot of them that i've seen is this one has a lot of mouse interactions it does yeah i mean i've most of these two he's i've seen are usually, you know,

keyboard commands. Yep. Well, yeah. A lot of them are like kind of them based. Yeah. Yeah. You know that in,

um, canines you can actually in, um, if you're using iterm, you can set the scroll option like on scroll option on your trackpad, right? So that it'll scroll the list. And if you're in canines when you do that, you can go check out like, oh, let me go see the pods.

And then you can just use the trackpad to scroll through it. So it's not quite the same because here you're using the mouse to select the different sections., it's not quite the same cause here you're like using the mouse to select the different sections. But yes, no other idea. I thought that like, um,

I was kind of surprised. Like I did a search here and cause I thought that maybe nerd tree, which was like a, a Vim extension would show up, but I guess it wasn't awesome. So I'm like, yeah, I get it.

I get it. There's a link we've got here uh for a list of awesome tubies and that one's not on unfortunately there is lazy git though which is by the same author as lazy docker and it looks very similar it's got like a section for files and a section for uh diffs and a section for commits and uh you know ultimately you're still doing things on command line you're still hitting letters to do things you can click stuff for the mouse but for the most part you're sticking to the keyboard and again it's got a terrible logo it looks kind of janky but if you look at both of these projects if you scroll down on the github uh page for these you'll see both of them have a

lot of sponsors the same sponsors is it that's funny a lot of the same not not necessarily one patrion or something what the heck well you didn't say it was the same so same developer so yeah maybe okay yeah this person is sponsored okay jesse duffield is the person behind both these projects and you can sponsor this person how about the spotify too yeah i installed that uh you have to have uh i couldn't get it working unfortunately you have to have like uh some sort of like um audio interface device running so there's a couple different things you can do but i want to you have to run the daemon basically which is pretty gross you have to have a certain client installed but the interface is great like i've got it uh of course i searched for coding blocks i'll send a little screenshot of what that

looks like but same kind of deal where it's got a couple little panels. It's text. There's definitely some pros and cons to these things. But my first thought upon seeing the logos specific was, oh, my gosh. This is the wild, wild west again. Remember when the internet was new and we didn't really have established patterns for things and people just just did weird stuff and usually it was terrible but sometimes it like worked really well and these things were like purpose-driven you know like if you had a site for your favorite anime or something you know it was really truly about that anime and you weren't spending your time thinking about

uh you know library third-party upgrades and you weren't Googling how to do this kind of scrolly, whatchamacallit, that you saw somewhere else. Like you're just inventing things based on how your mind kind of thought around the problem. And looking at these two E's, and there are a ton of them. Yeah. A ton. It gives you kind of insight in how people think about these programs

and how kind of they model the domain space and what they think is important enough to kind of raise to a high level and how they think about actions and the way you're going to navigate this kind of domain. I just think it's super cool that there are people out there kind of building these hobbyist 2Es out there. And I wanted to share a couple links. So here's a question for you because I find these fascinating. And like we've talked about canines so much. I mean, it's truly a killer tool. And like Outlaw mentioned,

that maybe you didn't even know using canines is it uses a lot of them key bindings. So like we've talked about before, like if you go into the pods and you hit slash to search, that is a Vim type thing, right? And you can do regex patterns in there. Well, it also uses other things that are, you know, part of the command space. So let's say that you typed out a big long name. Well, instead of having to backspace the entire thing, you do control you on that and it'll actually empty out that blank and do all kinds. So it's, it's actually really fast

to navigate around. But that brings me to my next question. Would you, if somebody were to port canines and make it into a windows type app, which would you use? Would you use the one that has nicer grids and maybe, you know, you can adjust the font sizes easier in different spots and that kind of thing? Or would you stick with the terminal based type thing? What do you think? Great question. I would love to be able to kind of drag a column to make it bigger, for example, with a mouse. There are things that you can do with a mouse that are not nice to do with a keyboard. So I would use a web app version of it if there was one, provided that it maintained the keyboard kind of focus on activities. I love that I can do things with just letters, like I've got the muscle memory built in. To me, the draw is more about my interfacing with the data rather than

what it looks like so being able to get to the stuff that you want like so for example with canines right like if you want to look at your pods you just hit colon pods right and then you're there and it's called p yeah or oh can you do p yeah p and then tab it autofills. Ah, okay. Or deployments is colon deploy. You know, just that kind of stuff makes it extremely fast to navigate around. And then once you're on your pods, like I said, you type the forward slash and then you start typing your name and you filter it immediately instead of, you know, control F and then type in some stuff. So what you like is the quick navigation using the keyboard. So, so if there was a, a windowed, uh, OS type app that did something similar, kept all your key bindings, but laid it out in a prettier, more accessible type format,

you would, you'd be down. Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely like that, but there is something kind of nice about being forced into the box as it were like the like if i had a web app there's things that i expect like i want to have preferences now i want to be able to resize windows i want to make my own dashboards there's things like expectations of modern what kind of web apps that i expect out of my web apps and for some reason i don't have those preconceptions of the 2e like i think it's cool that I can just hit slash to search. That works in Spotify. Every app I've tried

actually, like search is done via slash, which is like a throwback to Vim. So, I don't know. It's kind of nice being limited in a weird way. I did write a couple of pros and cons down. You know, being obviously able to keep your hands on the keyboard is really nice.

You don't have to use a mouse. You can install on remote servers. So if you want to, you know, install this on your server or home or something and you shell in and just use it from there and it's got access to stuff that works great on like a bastion box. These are often built by devs for devs.

So like, just like you said, like them key, you know, shortcut type stuff, that stuff tends to work. That's not something you're going to get on the consumer grade kind of general use applications you know uh like if if etsy.com for some reason or amazon.com offered a command palette you're probably not going to be able to use like vim commands and stuff right they're

going to make it a little bit more kind of user friendly for good reason but there's something nice about having this stuff built by us for us uh low overhead which is fantastic like you can't have a web page anymore without downloading uh megs um so purpose built so that's what i kind of mentioned about like people choosing what is important to them and what they think is uh you know how you're expected to use this even like the shortcuts they use like are kind of telling like is it l for logs or do we use uh the letter next to you know the other command that you're likely to use with it and keep those things closer together on the keyboard uh it was just interesting design decisions that you have to think of for yourself that haven't been solved and haven't been best practiced to death, which is kind of refreshing. It looks

old as heck, which I have as both a pro and a con. Something kind of cool, you know, about having a little school. Definitely a throwback. Bad. Also scriptability. So that's something we talked about with canines. Like, if you want to get the logs from a pod, then you can go and type

colon P and then hit L, and it's pretty fast after you search for it. But if you want to repeat that, if you want to throw it in a script, you want to get the logs from a pod, then you can go and type colon P and then hit L. And it's pretty fast after you search for it. But if you want to repeat that, you want to throw it in a script, you want to pipe that to something else, then you can't really do that. It's a whole other animal. And each one does have its own learning curve. Like we mentioned, you know, you go to a website, you kind of know how to use a website. Drop downs are the same. Buttons are the same.

Forms generally work the same. Like the web is kind of a solved problem but these apps like you never know what you're gonna get you hit play on spotify it starts like it takes over the screen with like this jumping music sound bars like how do i get back like it's an escape i don't know you know it's it's a fun time and i like i opened up the uh the help on the Spotify app, and it's like every letter of the keyboard. So it's like pages. It's like three pages of just commands. You can do like capital D or lowercase D. It's really powerful stuff, but it's going to take you a while to really get comfortable with that.

Yeah, it's too much. It's fun though, right? Outlaw just was like. I know you have all these. much it's fun though right outlaw just was like i don't know i mean just but like if you're gonna like double the alphabet like okay there's gonna be you know upper and lowercase command uh you know letters that do different things then you know that's just gonna be too much i mean to your question earlier alan like i i just kind of take the point of like, so I like these things, but I, but more from the point of view of like whatever thing I'm working in at the time, that's the tool. And I want to be able to stay in that tool and use it.

So if, if I'm on a command line, then I want to do everything through the command line. Like how great would it be if we had like a, an Alassian command line that you could be like uh hey close that ticket start start progress on this ticket log these hours to that ticket right you know and instead of having like okay let me go over here and context switch into this thing and that's the one reason why we've talked about the github command line tool right i know these aren't twoies you know i'm mentioning but the fact that you're like already in that command line, you know, I want to stay there in that kind of experience.

And so, you know. It's interesting. I mean, you're right. I find that I like canines because I'm doing kubectl commands and that type of thing. Right. And so I'm right there. And I like it. And I like to and a lot of times when you're you have to shell into pods

to do things or you have to do very scripty type things from a bash type prompt so it just feels natural there i don't know that spotify necessarily feels natural in a terminal right especially if you have to run a demon and you know somewhere else and like have an auto start on startup and yeah no yeah so it's interesting i think the context of what you're doing is super important and i could see why something like a canines i'd probably always like it to be in a terminal versus something like a spotify i'd rather have an app on a desktop you know that type of thing yeah yeah totally if you were in a browser though you then you'd like to have the minicube dashboard if you were in a browser though you then you'd like to have the minikube dashboard open in a in a browser page to where you could see similar

information about your cluster like that you would see in a canines totally totally yeah i love it that's pretty cool stuff man i love the uh the link that you have for the awesome ones that's there's a lot in there. There's a ton. And there's a solitaire version, so I don't know how that didn't make your cut. Yeah. I'd love to see the Elastic version. It'd be cool to see, like, maybe there is one. But it'd be cool to see, like, my clusters, my indexes, like, drill into my templates.

Like, there's things that, like, I always have to Google. I'm like, what is it, like like underscore nodes or underscore health than nodes? Like, you know, I don't remember that stuff. And it, you know, hit the command like doing curls and stuff like nothing. So I just hit, you know, capital B or whatever. I just honestly don't understand how like Mr. Game Jam didn't bother to mention any of the games. There's like a whole section of games. Yeah.

Space Invaders, Snake, you know, yeah. Moon Buggy. bother to mention any of the games there's like a whole section of games yeah space invaders snake you know yeah moon buggy they got wordle but they called it seal idol which is cool i love it that's amazing yeah this is deep i haven't thought about moon buggy in forever yeah that's cool stuff man all right so for me the the one thing that I saw, it actually popped up on my phone today, which was ironic because I don't even think I follow Facebook or meta or anything on Twitter. But for whatever reason, it popped up this thing. That's the newest version of meta. You don't even have to.

It'll do it for you. It'll follow it for you. Yeah, I don't think you're wrong. But I got this thing that apparently i haven't been paying attention to so we've been talking about chat gpt a decent amount over the past couple months and for good reason it's super hot and popular have you guys even paid any attention to this llama 2 thing that meta has yeah a little bit i didn't realize that uh meta was involved with llama yeah so apparently it's pretty big like i they they did a tweet today something like talking about how well it did at different types of tests and all kinds of stuff and apparently it's pretty

good they're saying that it's up there pretty close to chat GPT 3.5 or so. I don't remember what they said, but it's been pre-trained on 2 trillion tokens and it has double the context length when compared to the original release of Lama. So apparently they've done some pretty major things here. And I think the important thing is it's also available for commercial use. So I'm guessing, and it's also based on open source as well, which is pretty interesting. I don't know that chat GPT is, is it? I don't know. Okay. Well there's, there's definitely some things here that are cool, right? So I've got a couple links here.

If you just go to ai.meta.com, that's one place where it talks about Lama 2 and all that. And they talk about their open source approach and all that. And then they even, if you want to learn all the details about how they did their models and all that kind of stuff, they've got all of it here. So you can go look at this stuff but it is not open source it is not open source it's not okay yeah so so this is interesting from that perspective right like they're doing all this in the open and then they have this chart on their technical page on the models and libraries about llama um i guess how well it did at various different tests. Like, I don't know what MMLU or trivia QA or any of these things are, but apparently like it scored pretty well and it's, it's reinforcement

learning from human feedback. So, you know, if you're into the AI stuff and you're wanting to learn more about it, we've talked about chat GPT. It's something that you should be messing with, playing with, learning all that. There are other options out there that are worth looking into, right? Just to see sort of how they compare. One thing that's interesting, I don't know if you guys saw this, there's apparently some, they're starting now, the lawsuits against,, I think like chat GPT for, for recommending things that aren't safe. Like,

I don't know if it was medication or medical advice or something like that, but the lawsuits are starting to pop up now. So I mean, actively, I just thought of the article today talking about the results of chat GPT getting worse because you're able to like, it keeps like kind of like not wanting to answer your questions or kind of hedging its results because it's, you know, obviously trying to avoid some sort of liability, which is good, I guess. But I'm not happy about it. Well, and then there's this one I just searched for lawsuits against chat GPT right here on the front of google two authors have filed a lawsuit against

open ai the company behind the artificial intelligence tool chat gpt claiming that the organization breached copyright law by training its model on novels without the permission of the authors this is going to get so nasty so so fast okay so it's interesting that you said that because i was thinking about that as i was going through this because this was Facebook. Do you remember, I think it's been like maybe two, three-ish years now. Actually, it might have been more than that. Basically, their service they provided was they scraped the images from all the social media sites. And then you could give me a picture and I could take it to this database to be like, oh, hey, this is Alan. Right.

And that company, they ended up getting cease and desist letters from Twitter and Facebook specifically. actually passed laws that from a privacy point of view, that that company couldn't do that, have that kind of service. But the whole thing was that they were, they were scraping this quote like publicly available information. And so like, as I'm reading through this Lama documentation, I'm like, you know, they're talking about how they, they, how did they word it? Publicly available online data sources is what they pre-trained. So I'm like, okay, well, another way of saying that is like you scraped that data to be able to like, quote, pre-train this thing.

But, you know, at what point do we bring up lawsuits? And then coincidentally, you brought up the lawsuits of the books. So, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's insane, man. It's a complicated problem. Like, at what point, you know, you put something out there that's freely available on the internet, and at what point are you giving up, you know, access or ownership

or whatever to it, you know, that it can be used however it's used, right? And in this case, it's used to train an AI model. Well, one of the things that killed Facebook for me a long time ago in terms of using it personally was, I don't know if you guys remember this. This might have been before we all met or right around the time. They had put policies in place that said if you posted a picture on Facebook or Instagram, they own the rights to it. Right. So if they wanted to take your picture, they, they could do whatever they want with it at that point. Right. And I forget what the wording was at the time, but it almost sounded like you no longer had the rights to it on your own. Right. Like it was theirs. You pushed,

you pushed it to their platform. They own it. You can see it, but they own it. And at that time, my wife was like, no way. Like that's, that's ridiculous. I should, if I want to share a picture, that doesn't mean that they should be able to go put it on a, on a, you know, a billboard somewhere if they want, right. Like, or whatever it is. So that was one of the things that killed it for us in terms of just our private personal use of that kind of stuff was like, yo, if we don't own our own data, what in the world, man? Like, and, and it makes sense now from Facebook as a platform, a meta as a platform. I don't think that they had this, this in their minds, you know, 10,

15 years ago when they were doing all this. But man, what a huge amount of data they've got access to that they own the rights to because of the privacy policies that nobody reads, that they can go surf and data mine all this stuff for any technologies they decide to come up with, right? I just live in the mindset that if anything that I put out on the internet, I'm immediately no longer the owner of it. It doesn't matter. Have you seen the new season of Black Mirror?

Or any of the seasons of Black Mirror? No spoilers. I've seen some of it. I've seen the new season of black mirror or any of the seasons black mirror uh don't no spoilers i've seen i've seen some of it i've seen the first two or three i haven't seen the latest ones you haven't seen that okay well there's the latest one that's pretty relevant to this discussion i i they give it away pretty early it's the first episode of season one oh i've seen that one okay well it's a spoiler. Fast forward 30 seconds. But in the first episode, woman comes home from a rough day at work and turns on Netflix with her fiance and sees a show about herself.

It's her name. The person looks very similar to her. And, you know, it's literally a show that she's able to watch and it features events from her day, but, you know, kind of slightly altered to be a little bit more entertaining. And you can imagine her phone's blown off because people are texting her like, hey, you're on. Is this you on Netflix? Like, what's going on?

And, yeah, it just kind of goes off the wall from there. But you can imagine, like, you know, if they ever did, if Netflix or it wasn't named Netflix and the show was named something else. Greenberry. Yeah. Greenberry. Yeah,, yeah, it was great. That's what it was called. Which was so funny, too, because they would mimic the chime at the beginning, the bum bum, or whatever it is, I don't remember. And then, you know how when you watch a Netflix commercial, the N is in the top corner? It did that.

It was literally, hey, just take that asset and replace the n with the s and we'll just use it yeah it was fantastic way you imagine like if someone ever you know had something like snuck into terms and services about being able to use data from it picked up from you know different sources and like oh we don't actually need your explicit permission for this because of these combination of terms or whatever then yeah we're able to do what we want with your info and instill anything about it. Well, yeah, you posted all this stuff on your timeline and we own the timeline. So boom, here we go. Yeah. Now here's the cool thing though. I don't know if you noticed this or if you've tried this, did you notice that like top of the page on your, uh, one of your links there, uh, for the models and libraries download the model big giant button

it's saying right click that now you got to give them some information but yeah you you know there's a community license agreement that you can download that model i mean look for for all the all the stuff that we've said about our personal usage of Facebook or whatever, over time, like from a developer's point of view, I still think that they've done amazing things for the world of development in general,

right? Like react graph QL. I mean, there's, they have done and put so much out there that developers have latched onto and use the heck out of successfully. Right. So in no way would I disparage what they've got.

What was the one that they joining that they, yeah, that they, uh, they forked and there was like the one name and then the one name with SQL. Oh yeah. Um, Oh man, one name with SQL. Oh, yeah. Something with a P. Oh, man.

We were hot on it for a while. Yeah, we were. Oh, man. I query multiple sources. It wasn't like a druid or something. No, it was like a

sorry with the p i'm sure of it presto presto yeah presto sequel and presto db yeah that one that one they kind of like messed us up on right they kind of like picked a different name that was so hard that was that was their that was their angular yeah right right everybody gets one yeah yeah but i mean in terms of just providing and giving back to the developer community i'd say that you know meta has done an amazing job over time with that even though at one point remember they changed their their licensing on some of the stuff that that got everybody in an uproar i I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was the same thing like Elasticsearch had done too because they were tired of all the cloud companies

basically taking their free and open source stuff and then turning it around and turning it into a service that people were paying for while they were trying to make money off their own services. So, I mean, the web has been a crazy place for the past 10 years. Oh, I meant to say too, going back, just backing up to the TUI conversation. TUI, yes.

Heck yeah. That I said last time I was going to use and report back on Jay-Z's previous tip of the week, which was KA deck, the Kafka Apache. Oh, no, that was my tip of the week that I borrowed from Micro-G. Yes. Okay. which was a K a deck, the Kafka Apache. Oh, no, that was my tip of the week that I borrowed from micro G. Yes. Okay. So I forgot,

but the two week conversation reminded me and I'm like, Oh yeah. So as, as we were talking about that, I'm like, what was the name of that tool again? I need to think about it that because what I'm actually working on, like,

you know, here in the past few days, I'm like, Oh, this would actually be very helpful to what I'm actively working on like, you know, here the past few days, I'm like, oh, this would actually be very helpful to what I'm actively working on. I need to try this thing. I need to remember to try this thing. So promise number two, it's actually a repeat of the first promise that I did not,

I did not not break it, but I also didn't break it. That's amazing. Excellent. I will try it though. All right. So we will have some resources we like in here. Some of the links, like the,

the software engineering thing that, that outlaw has, which interestingly enough, there's actually a free version of it online. If you want to read it in HTML format. So sounds fine. So you can always do that. Well, I mean, if it were me, I would have it turn that into a PDF and

it would go on to a reader somewhere. I just had ChatGPT just tweet it for me, so I'll send you a link. That's amazing. Is it the real book, though? Yeah, it is. Who's putting this together right. The real book though. Yeah. Who's it is.

Who's putting this together. Uh, if you read it at the time, actually, oh man, I didn't like a horrible, no. If you, if you chop off the HTML and the TOC there,

they actually explain, oh man, actually, you know what? The easier thing to do. I'll find the link that I did to find this thing. If you just search for the name of that book on Google, it'll bring you to the page where they say, hey, we've published it for free, but you can also feel free to buy it from O'Reilly. So, yeah, yeah, it's legit.

It's legit. OK. Yeah. So with that, like Alan said, we'll have plenty of links and the resources we like and with that we head into alan's favorite portion of the show it's the tip of the week i got two for you today uh the first one is an extension of the two-e uh conversation we had you know we mentioned you can build your own uh there were some really great libraries for them and i found a really nice uh uh what's called blog post uh detailing like kind of

some basic patterns and two e's and talking about how you can get started what's funny that was a lot of the most popular libraries for creating these things have been written in rust so a lot of the tools on those lists and things we've talked about tonight were written in rust and we're done without a ton of code actually and so so here's a nice article to get you started. And it'll cover the basic libraries called things like clap and tui and cross term. And it's a pretty cool way to learn something new, have fun with a new kind of interface and maybe learn some rust. So I have a link there in the show notes. And then I got another tip for you.

What if you need to update your Kubernetes version, but you want to check ahead of time to see if any of the APIs you're using are deprecated or obsolete? Well, there's a tool called cube, no trouble or cube NT for short. That's dead simple. It only takes a couple of different arguments. You basically hook it up to your cluster and it's going to go out and find

every resource that you have and it's going to look at it and compare it to the list of uh apis that are deprecated and obsoleted as published by the maintainers of kubernetes so it's using the official resources to tell you what's uh deprecated or not because because apparently Google published it, or not Google, the maintainers of Kubernetes, which includes Google, published this stuff in a really easy-to-use format, and it made it really easy for this tool to just kind of drop in and do a comparison. It does take a while to run if your cluster is of any size. So, you know, I think I ran on a really small cluster, and it ended up taking like 15 minutes or something. So I can imagine if I ran it on a bigger cluster, it would go much longer.

And it does try to look at everything. So it's going to try to look at secrets or custom resources, anything you installed across all your namespaces. And so you should talk with somebody before you run it on like a production cluster or something. You should probably set off some alarm bells if you're trying to access things that your user normally wouldn't be able to um but yeah i mean it's just really nice uh and it like at the end spits you out like a list of all the resources that uh have apis that have been deprecated or obsoleted and what the things move to which i thought that was really cool that they actually tell you what they move to or if there's like changes to the apis to it'll note it and it turns out that was really cool that they actually tell you what they move to or if there's like changes to the APIs to it'll note it.

And it turns out that was all just published by the maintainers of Kubernetes. So that was all information that's available and dependable. So whenever Kubernetes does their next version, they're going to publish this thing again and this tool is still going to work. And you can just keep using it. So it's nice you're not waiting on some Bobo person or company or whatever to kind of walk away from this. Like presumably this tool is going to work without much maintenance going forward into the future. So it's just great.

That's amazing. Yeah, I'm curious to try that one too. All right. Okay. So for my tips of the week, I'll start with this one. Do you guys like me keep 8 billion tabs open? Yes. Right.

At least. And no, I try to declare bankruptcy. So I like, I'll have like 20 and I'm like, that's it. And I'll just close them all and regret it. Oh no.

Right. No, I wish I had that kind of, no. Um, so I, I keep, you know, 800 tabs open with in tab groups and all that. But do you ever find yourself like, man, I wish I could just like reload all of these tabs in one fell swoop because like maybe I had to reconnect to a VPN or whatever your, your situation might be. Right. Well, I found out that you actually can do that in Chrome.

You can, one of two ways, you can either do your shift select or your control select type of options. So, you know, select the first tab and then shift select to whatever the last tab or just control click the ones you want to do. Once you do that, you can right click on one of the tabs and do the reload from there or whatever your normal reload options are. So you could right click. You can do the control R.

You could do a control shift R. The point is you can reload all those tabs in one command. That's pretty nice. I didn't know that. Right? Okay, so that's the technical one. Now, after that, it's all downhill. So I have had my eye on these little things for a while and i've been curious to try them

and i finally had a chance to and now i am a believer i'm sold these things are amazing so i know alan jay-z this probably doesn't apply to you you don't even have to listen but um i know But I know Alan, you and I both do a lot of stuff around the house. And you watch, like me, a lot of like – you'll fall into a rabbit hole on YouTube of like different DIY type home projects or whatever, right? And that's how I found this. And I think I shared the video specifically from this guy once before, but of some other project that he was doing, but he had talked about these Waggo, uh, uh, nut and lever nuts that you use to connect wires. So the old school way was like, you could, you could solder two wires together. You could use the crimp, uh, connectors to connect the wires together. You could use the crimp connectors to connect the wires together. You could use the twist-on wire nuts to connect wires together, right? And each wire can go into one of those lanes, but to get it in there, there's like a little lever that you lift up, the wire goes in, you close the lever and then boom, it's locked

in there. Right. And you could, you could do five of them that way. It is so ridiculously much easier to do stupid clean wiring jobs now in like the, in your house. You know, like these are really intended for like, you know, if you were replacing like light switches or receptacles or whatever, like that's where you, you might want to use these things. Right. So stupid easy. And the beauty of it is

if you're like, Oh, I need to disconnect that wire. Oh, I can just take one wire out of the bunch. Right. Because the problem with those twist-on ones, which was kind of like the de facto standard for things inside the wall, right, was that maybe depending on the bunch of wires that you're getting, right, maybe some of them are getting a good connection and others aren't if you have too many wires and especially if you don't have the right size uh twist on wire nut then right this you don't have that problem they're clear see-through plastic so you can easily see them they're awesome now i see that somebody put in a link to the ideal ones not as good you can not as good. You can not as good. And you can get both of these at Home Depot, by the way.

But yeah, these far surpass the other option that you gave there. Now, I gave a link to in the show notes to the manufacturer's web page because you can find these on Amazon. But the problem is, is that you're going to find them on Amazon, like repackaged into like large, like, Oh, Hey, here's a 75 kit piece kit. And it'll be in some like nice assorted, you know, kind of thing. Right. And that's not, that's not from the manufacturer that's somebody repackaged so i'm including the the original link to the manufacturer so you can see the different versions that they make right because they have an inline one and then they have like a you know a side by a two connector one that's side by side or three or five so depending on what your needs are but yeah i'm in love with these things. These are awesome. I'll never go back now.

Um, that was great. Now also, um, Jay Z, you're not gonna want to listen to this one. In fact, your wife might find this one more interesting than you.

So if you want to, you want to go grab her, get her on the line. That's right. So, so my, I have fallen, my,

I've had this latest obsession to where speaking of YouTube rabbit hole, YouTube rabbit holes. I have found this channel now called Matt's off-road recovery. And it is insane that this man has been able to make a career and a business out of this profession where he like people will think like, Oh, I've built this like ridiculously cool Jeep and it can go off-roading. So I'm going to go rock climbing my Jeep through the Rocky mountains in, in Utah or Nevada or wherever. And then they get stuck and, or they've tipped over or whatever, and they need to get out. And this guy has built a business around going around getting those people, right? So that part is already insane, but then watching how they do this over and over and over in the

insane types of saves that they do where like you know the car will be you know i'm looking at one now where it's on a 63 the truck is sitting on a 63 i can't even say it a 63 degree slant right about the tip over and you know they have to pull it off the side of this mountain right like it's these kind of insane things like i can't i can't stop watching it it's so amazing like matt's off-road recovery it's it's just incredible to see what they do like you know he's built this this four-wheel steer off-road wrecker based off of an old international truck that is just gorgeous to watch this thing like this thing was hand-built right the you know purpose made for this thing

and it's just amazing to watch him like climb you know he's he'll you'll see him literally rock climbing doing amazing rock climbing in this wrecker while pulling someone else behind him. And you're just like in all like the the the the mastery, like the the engineering marvel of this stuff. Right. It's just amazing. And plus, like the ingenuity and creativity that these guys do, that this team does to save you know and get these people out of these situations oh that's great now here's the part that jay-z if you haven't tuned out you're about to i don't even know the words you're saying wreckers yeah so angles what so so alan this one's to you all right so this so one one of the purpose-made vehicles that this guy has, okay, he calls it the Morvair.

And it is maybe the most beautiful thing you're going to see. Okay? It is a, forget the exact year, it's an early 60s model corvair station wagon that he has purpose built into this ridiculously capable off-road machine oh i think i'm looking at it is it yellow and black yes yes yeah and we're talking about cars right and yeah shut up jay-z here's the thing here's the most beautiful part about it this right that more vare has the most beautiful sound you've ever heard from any engine ever man has never made a more beautiful sounding car engine than that one just listening to it's it's just it's low rumble roar as it's just idling and you're like oh god that sounds

beautiful and then when you hear it actually do its job you're like oh my god it's not even breaking a sweat and it's like moving that truck that's like 18 times heavier you know or whatever and then when you do see him like let go on it you're like just impressive how awesome that that more bear is so i can't i can't speak highly enough of it this is way better than any of this stuff jay-z's about to tell you or no already did tell you well i guess alan's about to go so this is way better than any of this stuff. Jay-Z's about to tell you, or no, already did tell you, well, I guess Alan's about to go. So this is way better than anything. Alan's about to tell you,

you're going to fall into this YouTube channel and you're like, yep, that was my new rabbit hole. Yeah. This might be a problem because it will be my new rabbit hole. Outlaw and I have similar automotive interests, so I could totally do a podcast, talking,

geeking out on stuff like that all day. Ironically enough, I don't have it in the show notes. One of the things that I've fallen down a rabbit hole on is I want to build some open baffle speakers. And I also want to do some custom DIY amplifiers for it. So like electronic soldering, all that dude, I have spent so many days watching videos on how to do things like it's going to be ridiculous when I do it. That's how I got here. Yeah. For the record, that's how I got here. And I'm not saying that I'm not being, I'm not joking. Like I literally, you know, when I was young, I was really into car stereos and would build systems and whatnot and compete in SPL competitions and wanted to be involved in like designing stereo systems like car stereos and things like that.

And that was what I was. I was going in as a double E major. And it was while being double E that I had to take programming classes for the first time. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so much fun. And I fell in love with it. And I was like, I definitely want to be a programmer. And then I graduated, and they were like, okay, now you need to become a software engineer. And I'm like, I'm out.

Right. That's not what I signed up for. I'm just kidding. I wasn't out. But, yeah, that's literally how i got here yeah i i love building stuff and and i can't wait to hear this car i've seen it now but i haven't heard it so mine my tip of the week i'm actually sort of cheating and stealing this from jay-z because jay-z brought this up the other day when we were talking about some stuff logging and metrics and whatnot.

If you haven't heard of it, you should check out opentelemetry.io. I have a link in the show notes for it. I'll say this, we're going to be doing an episode on it here pretty soon. I actually wanted this episode to be it, but I wasn't able to get through enough of it. But the gist of it is we've talked about this in the past, you have metrics, you have logs, you have all kinds of things. And Jay-Z and I, I think we were rambling about it an episode or two ago about how, you know, it's great and all you have these things, but you have to go connect the dots all over the place, right? Like, you have to go look at these logs, and you have to time to these logs, and you have to look at these metrics. And then you're like, OK, well, what's the what's the whole picture? That's what open telemetry tries to solve is tying those dots together for you and then giving you a nice UI to where you can actually look at the dots all connected and be like, OK, well, this is what happened from where the request was made all the way down to where the failure happened or where the latency

happened or whatever, right? So it is exactly what was put together to help with distributed computing, cloud computing, that type of thing. And as a matter of fact, it's part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation project. I think it's actually graduated to whatever they call it, but, uh, it's, it's pretty amazing. So have a link here in the show notes. Again, we're going to be talking about it in depth here in the near future. So, uh, if you're interested in that and you want to get a primer on it, so you have an idea of what the heck we're talking about when we actually started on this, you know, maybe check that out. So, all right.

Well, with that, there will be a link in the show notes and, uh, no, nothing. All right. Um,

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