Coding Blocks - Who Owns Open-Source Software?

Episode Date: January 18, 2021

We discuss all things open-source, leaving Michael and Joe to hold down the fort while Allen is away, while Joe's impersonations are spot on and Michael is on a first name basis, assuming he can pronounce it.

You're listening to Coding Blocks, episode 150. Subscribe to us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you like to find your podcasts. You can find us there. Leave us a review if the platform allows it or a thumbs up or whatever it allows. All right. Make sure to head to the website at whizzle, whizzle, whizzle, codingblocks.net. We can find show notes, examples, discussion, and more. And send your feedback, questions, and rants, too, comments at codingblocks.net. We can find show notes, examples, discussion, and more. And send your feedback, questions, and rants, too.

Comments at codingblocks.net. And follow us on Twitter at codingblocks. Or head to dubwizzlew.codingblocks.net and find all our other social links there at the top of the page. And if that's not confusing enough... I'm Alan Underwood. And, okay, that wasn't really Alan.

He sounds kind of a lot like that. Sorry, Alan. But he couldn't be with us today. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to let you down. I'm just OZak. And I am Michael Outlaw. This episode is sponsored by Datadog, the cloud scale monitoring and analytics platform for ensuring the health and performance of your databases.

And Linode, simplify your infrastructure and cut your cloud bills in half with Linode's Linux Virtual Machines. All right, and today we're going to be talking about the people and groups behind open source projects and why they do the things they do. But first, a little bit of news. All right, so as is tradition, we'd like to say thank you to those that took time out of their busy day to leave us a review. So on iTunes, we have at Kroll242 and CodeTurtle. So thank you very much. Indeed. Thank you very much.

And a couple of big things going on the week this podcast is coming out, actually. I'm going to be presenting at the San Diego Elastic Meetup on Tuesday, January 19th. And I'll be talking about Scaffold and Kubernetes and, of course, a lot of Elastic. So that's virtual. So you can check that out. I'll have a link. And then the Coding Blocks game jam is also this week, 21st to 24th. It's awesome.

You should just go sign up, even if you've never made a game before and you don't know how. All you have to do to participate in this game jam is you have to want to. Yeah. So, we had, what was, oh, because we had, was this old in here about the upcoming keyboard reviews? Yeah. Okay. Well, okay. We'll say it anyways, though, because they're still upcoming keyboard reviews.

I know Alan's been working on those. I think he said he had like the video done for some of it. He was just trying to finish it up, but whatever. So, you know, if you've been following along, especially in our Slack channel, then you know that we purchased an obscene amount of ergonomic keyboards. Basically, if you've ever seen any keyboard review of like all the craziest designs out there or ones that were like just ridiculously expensive or whatever, like we bought a slew of them and we're going to be doing a review of them and seeing like, uh,

you know, kind of like a keyboard shootout, see which one, uh, actually lives up to, uh, you know, it's claim.

So you can find, you can watch, uh, for those to come out on, uh, my favorite destination to look for, to, to go to, to get to them is a coding blocks.net slash YouTube. But, um, you know, if you prefer to go to youtube.com slash coding blocks, you're welcome

to. Yep. You're welcome. All right. Well, let's get into the episode. So, uh, I wrote a couple of questions. I thought it might be kind of fun to kind of mix through here. So I want to talk a little bit about what open source means, but not the definition. Like I've got a couple of definitions written down here. But when you think the average developer, the average developer here is open source, what do you think they think of? Free software. Yeah, that's what I think too.

And so there is a lot of debate over what's truly open source and there's a lot about licensing. We talked about that way back in episode 3. But I've got a couple formal definitions. I just thought that was interesting. That's what I kind of think too. Even though I know better. My first instinct is open source is free. And like I even find myself like I'll say to my boss like, oh, don't worry, it's open source or, you know, it's free. And then I realize like, you know, is it? I should probably go check.

Just because it's free doesn't mean I can do whatever I want with it. And depending on your definition of open source, just because it's open source doesn't mean you can necessarily distribute it or use it however you want. Well, I always – I said that jokingly because like in my mind where I go with it is, okay, sure, even if there isn't a license cost for it, there's definitely a support and maintenance human factor. Right. And sometimes just because, uh, you know, that, that, that might be more difficult depending on what the project is. Uh, you know, that might be more difficult for you to, to find support for, uh, you know, versus like some big company that's just like, Hey, I'm selling this thing. And if you, uh, if you buy it, you know, I will give you this support along with it. Right. So, I mean, it's like, well, you know, do you want your cost upfront with the license?

And maybe there's, you know, depending on how the software is purchased, there might be a lot of, uh, add on, um, support or, or, or maybe not so much, but, you know, or you just want it in the long form of paying for the support. But, you know, again, that's going to vary based on the project too. Cause like, you know, if you're talking about like something like a react, for example, like there's a, there's a truckload of react developers and yeah, they can be found. Right. So that's not going to be difficult, but yeah, I hear it's quite hot. Yeah. I've,

I've heard a thing or two about it. Yeah. And so, uh, what got me kind of started on this path is that I was thinking about the upcoming game jam and I was thinking about how to make jam, jam, jam,

jamuary. Very good. Uh, so it got me thinking, I was like, well, it'd be nice if I could open source the code. So,

you know, people want to see or whatever, fork it or mess around with like, that'd fun but the assets is always a problem so i like to use paid assets because i just like to be looking at cool things so my first instinct was well i'll just find some free assets but just because it's free doesn't mean i can distribute it so if i go find someone's free assets that they're gifting to me to use for project doesn't mean that I can take it and go put it on my GitHub. It definitely doesn't mean I can take it and go sell it. There's a whole lot of issues around licensing and whatnot.

So I just wanted to kind of call it out. That's how we got started down this path. And it's tricky. And even if you know what you can do and you can't do, it's still possible to make mistakes. Well, so there's open source, but then there's licensing. The licensing is what makes it complicated. Oh yeah, for sure. A lot of times if you go to a website and download some free utilities,

you won't find a license. It gets even weirder. I don't really know what the answers are. It's hard to really police and kind of enforce that sort of thing. But, you know, I think it's still valuable to think about. But you just have to be careful. You could see how someone with a bad actor could go and, like, download all the free assets from the Internet and sell them in one big bundle. And that feels pretty slimy. And they may or may not be able to do that based on where they got those assets from, which is kind of funky.

Yeah, you just assume that they couldn't. People do shady stuff all the time. So, I mean, shady people are going to do shady stuff, whatever. So, I got, shady people are going to do shady stuff. Whatever. So, I've got two definitions here. One is from opensource.org. Their definition is open source software made by many people

and distributed under an open source OSD compliant license which grants all the rights to use, study, change, and share the software in modified and unmodified form. And so, I mean, to me, that makes it sound like, you know, that's closest to kind of my definition of it. OpenSource.com has a different one, which says basically it commonly refers to software that uses an open development process and is licensed to include the source code.

That development process is what kind of trips me up and that kind of starts dipping its toe into governance and how projects are run. Yeah. Yeah, but I got a dumb question for you, though. You said that from the open source.org um open source software is software yeah open source software is made by many people and distributed under an osd compliant license so an on-screen display compliant license i don't think that uh i don't

think that's what they meant. So, open source definition. Oh, gosh. It gets into free redistribution, source code, derived works. It goes on. And I'm definitely not a lawyer. I'm assuming there would be something like open source distribution. Like, what does the OSD stand for?

Oh, yeah. Open source definition. Oh, it's open source definition compliant. Okay. Yep. Open Source Definition. Oh, it's Open Source Definition Compliant. Okay. Yep. And they have a bunch of licenses that they list that they say are allowed. And it gets weird and funky really fast if you start going down this path. Yeah, I mean, so according to opensource.com

then it's not, it's only open source if it's using a open development process. Yeah. So for example, if you imagine like, I'm just going to pick a corporation, like I'm going to make one up, or

pepsi.com, like they make soda. They release a product that lets you, I product that lets you 3D print Pepsi bottles. But the software for running that doesn't have an open development process, which just means every once in a while they go and they dump the code to GitHub. And they have an open source license that lets you use it. I would say that doesn't work. That doesn't count as open source software because according to the definition from opensource.com, they're not using an open development process. There's no real

feedback from the community there. There's no contributions taken. They just come and dump the code every once in a while. Yeah. And I think that's where things get weird when sometimes people talk about individual companies like Elastic is one example where they run Elasticsearch, which is built on Lucene. And there's various layers of licensing there that gets kind of confusing. And people have made the case sometimes that maybe Elasticsearch shouldn't be considered open source because you've got this one company that's kind of guiding and steering it and they can refuse contributions from people that uh don't have features they want to add there and they're they're uh the companies that aren't in the company's interest so people made the argument that for example elastic wasn't

adding security to the product because they wanted to upsell you and they were they made the claim that elastic was doing things like uh dissuading contributions around security because they didn't want it to compete with their product. Yeah. That actually happened though? I didn't know that. I didn't realize that actually happened. Yeah. And then Amazon came out with Open Distro Elastic Search, which added in a bunch of the features and they're like, well, this is actually open source. And that's one of Amazon's few notable open source projects. Huh.

Awkward, to say the least. Interesting. Yep. So I have a fun little section here. I thought it might be. So just to wrap that up, though, just because you make the source available doesn't make it open source, according to these definitions. Yeah. available doesn't make it open source according to these definitions yeah but if you were to ask your average developer in the street i would say probably if it's on if it's on github

yeah well i mean even according to the open source.org definition if you yourself created a project put it up on github, and were developing and making it available. And even if you did have a license, that wouldn't necessarily be considered open source per their definition. Because it's not by many people. Yeah. Yeah, that's weird. I would have never thought about this in this kind of detail. Yeah.

I actually went to look at that. Remember we talked about the GitHub State of the Octoverse survey? Yep. So I went through their documents trying to figure out if they ever listed how many open source projects were on the website. And I did find an article from them back in 2018 where they did mention they passed 100 billion projects. But they kind of stay away from calling them open source or not because how can you really tell? Especially if we're saying it has to have an open development process.

Well, what's open? What's not? How do I tell? I don't know. All right. Well, hit me with this quiz. All right. And this is... Don't worry about getting the right answers. This is just more of a word association. I'm going to get the right answers.

All right. Who about getting the right answers. This is just more a word association. I'm going to get the right answers. Alright. Who created Linux? You mean like the person, like Linus? Or are we talking about... Yeah. I mean like... Why are you looking at me like this? No, I'm just

curious. Who else would you think to mention here? I didn't know where you were going. He's my answer. Yes. Yeah, and that's why I kind of tried to phrase it like, just consider it a word association. Because every single one of these gets tricky.

If you're going to talk about Linus, it's hard not to talk about Gnu. I've also heard it pronounced Linus, though. Have you ever heard it pronounced like that? No. I think you're trying to trick me. No, honestly, I don't know how it's supposed to be pronounced. We know how I am with names.

Right, right. I've heard most people say Linus, but I've also heard others say that it's supposed to be Linus. I've never heard him say it. I've never heard others say that it's supposed to be Linus. I've never heard him say it. I've never heard him announce himself. Yeah.

Yeah, me either. What about the C language? I mean, is that supposed to be considered open source? There are compilers that are open source. Oh, so you're talking about gcc because c predates the c language predates like things like that right yeah like i don't remember who created the c language but he recently died uh within the last couple years right yeah it was dennis richie yeah and that's uh that's a name i remember from like you know college courses but uh they also

worked at bell labs at the time. So I always kind of thought it was weird that we associated a person with it rather than a corporation because that's not really the case anymore. Well, I mean, it's the same thing with JavaScript, right? Like, what was his name? Brandon something. And he worked for Netscape. Yep. But, I mean, you don't talk about Netscape as being the creator of it.

You talk about him. Yeah. i don't remember his last name because he was given like seven days to create it and he pulled it off yeah like that's impressive that's why yeah so uh what about python oh uh shoot i was thinking pearl at first i don't know python I don't know. Python, I don't know. Yeah, okay. So Guido, he's kind of a medieval person. Yeah, I'm sure you've heard it before. So this is not – you're not – Didn't he just – he was the – in charge of the pip recently and he – the supreme – what did he – he had that title. Benevolent Dictator for Life. Yes, there you go. Benevolent Dictator for Life. And he recently

stepped down from it. And it went to a committee. He works at Microsoft now, by the way. They snapped him up after he retired from Python. But yeah, another individual person. I want to mention, too, I put together the notes for this episode. So if that sounds like I know these things, it's because I looked it up. Now, we're going to start getting into more recent stuff. What about Git? Git?

Yeah. I mean, that's Linus again. Okay. What about C Sharp? I mean, that's just Microsoft. I don't think of that as any one individual. Yeah. Yeah.

So, there's definitely – they had a director, Anders Helzberg, however you pronounce the name. And I had to look that up. I didn't know that. Apparently, he does some work on F-sharp. But like I think most people, if you say C-sharp, what pops to your mind is Microsoft, right? Okay. Yeah. I agree.

What about Java? Java was Sun. Yeah. I don't remember an individual person. Yeah. So Sun, you know, is like maybe, I don't know, 90s. So it's kind of like in the 70s, 80s, early 90s. It's like definitely if an open source project came out, it was associated to a person.

And then things start kind of changing. So if I say Kubernetes. Google. Yeah. Postgres. Dang. Um, I don't know.

I don't know. Postgres. Yeah. Their last name is stonebreaker. I would have remembered that if I had heard that person's name. Huh? Uh, what about react?

Uh, Facebook. Rust. Ooh. Uh, dang. Uh, I i first google came to mind first but then like no that's go that i'm wanting to think of i i don't know yeah you got go so i'll uh i'm working on off the list so uh that's actually the the mozilla foundation which is funded heavily by google yep and uh we got a couple more, uh, Flutter.

Oh, no, I don't know. I just tried to go with something recently. That's Google, uh, TypeScript, Microsoft.

Okay. Uh, what about Chromium? Oh, that is not Google, right? But that's what Google based Chrome on. I think they released Chromium. Did they?

Google sponsored project. They sponsored a project called Chromium to build this thing. Oh, but it was, but. Okay. But I mean, it started out as like, like Chromium is just an open source thing. And then they, they have a version of that called Chrome. Yep. It just so happens that they funded the original project.

Okay. I didn't realize that. Yeah, I didn't know either. I had to look it up. So one last one for you. What about Vue? Vue, the JavaScript library. Yep. Huh. view the javascript library uh huh i thought i mean that one i didn't think was a company but it was a guy who left who who was he worked on react and left it and started view if i remember

correctly but i can't remember his name it's evan you and that's another one you know i had to look up i'm not just i'm just not in that ecosystem uh so uh i'll go ahead and paste those in the notes now so you can kind of see yeah there were a couple i didn't ask uh because oh i see i got them all right hey yeah you got them all right 100 but uh do you see what i mean about how there's there was kind of a shift at some point where we stopped kind of like pulling these kind of heroes out of history. And even when they were companies that funded the projects and we started kind of moving more into like kind of corporate faces for these entities. Yeah.

Yeah. It's kind of interesting. And even like things like Chromium, like you associate it with a company, Google, but technically it's this other project. Right, right. And you see a lot of that kind of stuff going on with various foundations, which we're going to be talking about here. But I mean, there were two big ones in that list though that were not contributed to or attributed to a corporation, and that was Postgres and Vue. Yeah.

Yeah, and Postgres is, yeah, newer and Vue is like the most recent example of something I could think of like where there's a person's name associated with a, like a top tier open source project that everyone's heard of. And really even Git isn't that old. No. Probably just 20 years or so. It's not. Is it even that old?

I think 2011 is when. Yeah. 2011 would sound more right. Yeah, I forget. We looked this up. As we run off to the internet. 2005 is when it started. Yeah, that sounds right.

Yeah. Yeah, 15 years old. So, yeah, it's kind of interesting to kind of think about that shift a little bit. We'll get into that a little bit more coming up. I found a really cool project where this person, it looks like once a day they actually go through and scrape the top, I forget now, the top 100 stars list of different languages. So they go through Python, C Sharp, JavaScript, and they look at the top 100 libraries. So we've got a list here. We'll have it in the show notes.

I don't think it's necessarily anything. We don't need to go through all these lists. But I did think the top 100 stars across all languages was really interesting. Free Code Camp is number one. Okay. So maybe based on a lot of classes that they have going on yeah people end up starring it i can see that have you ever heard about 996 icu uh i think uh i think you got some a hack or something like you got did you go somewhere

on the internet you shouldn't have? You downloaded something you weren't supposed to? Apparently, you're not far off. Just kidding. The name 996ICU refers to work by 996, sick in ICU, which is an ironic saying that I don't understand among Chinese developers. 996, I think maybe it's if you multiply 24 by 7. Is that what it is? Oh, 9 to 9, six. I think it may be. It's if you multiply 24 by seven, is that what it is? Oh, nine to nine,

six days a week. Yeah. So, um, I don't quite understand what this, uh, project is, but it has a whole lot of stars. Okay.

So maybe that one's got like a, a large international following in because we don't understand the reference there. Yep. Maybe it's got some cultural significance. I mean, I do see that, uh,

internationalization is part of the project, right? Right. And it's got, got quite a lot of stars of you as number three. Finally, what I've heard of. Yeah.

Single person up there too. And then as it goes on, like a free books, coding interview, university, things like that. Come on, say it. There you go. Yep. Who's TensorFlow? Is that Google? Yes.

Originally? That would be my guess. If we were still doing the guess, the guessing game. TensorFlow was Google is my understanding. I think so. Yeah. TensorFlow was originally developed by researchers and engineers working on

the Google Brain team within Google's machine learning, or I'm sorry, machine intelligence research organization. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So, yeah. And then, here you go with number 10. Go ahead.

Say it. Oh, I wasn't looking. Boots. No. Oh, my Z shelf. Nice. There. I was surprised at just how many of those I did not know.

Yeah. Well, some of these seem like, okay, so the free code camp, the free programming books, the coding interview university. I mean, some of these just look like they were from developer resources, right? Like developer roadmap and you don't know JS. Yep. Those seem like, you know, just developer resources. So anybody who's learning or studying from one of those resources is likely to go and star that so they can go back to it. So that made sense. Shows you just how influential learning resources are. Yeah, and what some of the favorite ones are.

And how influential GitHub is to people starting their journey. Oh, yeah, that's a great point, too. Because if you were just starting to learn how to code and your first use of source control was Git or GitHub, rather. So if you were to buy GitHub like Microsoft did, maybe a part of you wanting to buy GitHub has a lot to do with how developers interface with – work with software. I mean, yeah, if you think about it, I mean, there used to be – I don't know how true you could say this is today. But I remember you used to be able to easily classify. You could lump Apple in one side and Microsoft in the other. And, and it was Apple was the, the company and, you know, the hardware and software

tailored towards the creative individuals. And Microsoft was the hardware and software tailored towards, uh, developers, right? Yep. On a PC. Yeah. Okay, well, maybe spreadsheet users. Yeah. But I don't know how true you could say that is especially for Apple anymore in regards to

the creative software that's kind of like seems to have dwindled some in recent years. Yeah. We looked at the open source projects by Apple and Swift was the biggest one. I forget what number. No,

no, no. I thought the biggest one was the LVVM LLVM project. Wasn't that, was that wrong? Uh, no, you are right.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause that wrong? No, you are right. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Because that predates Swift by a long shot. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Well, here's something I'm going to do. How much open source software runs on your iPhone? Oh, geez.

I mean, I would have to say the majority of it. Because that was one of the things that Jobs was credited for when he came back. Because when he was kicked out of apple he started another company called next and all it was was they were using like a a bsd distribution uh you know linux type distribution or i don't know you really call it linux but you know, Unix type distribution and then putting their own, uh, UI on it. And then Apple bought next and that's what they used for, uh, the underlying OS 10 platform. Right. So it's, it's still like a BSD underneath with their very pretty UI on top of it.

So I would imagine that because of that, a lot of the guts of the operating system are open source still to this day. And that would include even things like the Apple Watch or the iPhone or the iPad because they're technically just all scaled down versions of that OS with a different UI on top. Yeah. So that's a big part. Also the apps you run, like how many of those use open source libraries or tools or like, forget about it.

So I went and tried to like look up a stat to see like, you know, how many big companies or fortune 500 or something are using open source. And the results were all over the place. The numbers that people would use, the results were all over the place the numbers that people would use the way they used it like the way they would try to calculate that number to figure that out and what they counted not it was just really messy and nasty so i didn't end up linking to any of them they were all a bunch of uh not great articles really but got me thinking it's like how the heck can you not use open source well i, I was going to say, I've got a bet for you.

I bet you that you cannot go to, you cannot find any website that doesn't use open source. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't mean like, I'm going to go and create like a hello world, HTML, raw HTML page. And that's it. I mean, I mean i'm talking about like you know a website that's actually used by by people like something on it i guarantee you it has some kind of even if it's like you know a tracking pixel or something that somebody else created or something like they've got something on there that i guarantee you they're using some open source for. Yep. We've joked about the node modules being so big and so many for just a new project for anything, like Angular site or something, React billions.

And you think about the browser and how many open source libraries it uses and OpenSSH and just the various underlying tools are used for everything, like certificates, rendering. And then you think about the operating system and all the various open source libraries and tools, and it's just exhausting. But, I mean, it's just huge. How much longer do you think it's going to be before Microsoft just gives up and makes Windows open source? I don't know. I don't know that that would be that crazy.

I mean, people, people predicted that, you know, I, I'm sure if you were to like rewind the clock that there were people that had predicted that they would have already gone full on open source by now and haven't.

So, you know, the fact that they still haven't, you know, I mean, maybe they could go another 20, who knows? Yeah. I, you know, the fact that they still haven't, you know, I mean, maybe they could go another 20, who knows? Yeah. You know, the, their, their CEO, what's his name?

Nadal? Bomber or Satya? No, Satya. Yeah. He had said he was putting more emphasis on their cloud efforts like Azure than he was on Windows and Office because there for the longest time, Windows and Office were the bread and butter of that company. Yep. And their stock's been doing really nice ever since he took over. It's been doing fantastic. I was looking at like bomber quotes.

He compared Linux to cancer. He talked about communism in reference to open source. Cancer came up a few times. Toxic. Destroying value. As crazy as he

sounds for saying that, though, he has an amazing foundation now. Shoot, what was it? What's the name of it? Do you know what I'm talking about? Oh, USAFacts.org. Oh, that's him? Yeah.

Have you ever seen this thing? No, it's just facts? It's just he started this thing. This has been his thing since he left Microsoft. It's just freely available government data that nobody really did anything with, and he started visualizing it. And it is awesome, some of the stuff that he's done with it. Jeez, GDP. I mean, I was just looking at GDP,

and there's like maybe 50 graphs on this page going back years. Yeah, he's done a really good job with it. It's really cool, but it's usafacts.org. In fact, let me say that. Yeah, and everyone who's graphs is like, hey, click here to download the data. Go nuts. Yeah.

What can you do? Yeah. I mean, this was, this was all like, you know, freely available. He just visualized it and it's, it's really good.

Like there was one when he first launched this. Um, well I take that back. It wasn't when he first launched it, but it was when I first heard about it and when he was promoting it, uh, a while back. It wasn't when he first launched it, but it was when I first heard about it when he was promoting it a while back. And it was, it was years ago and it was about how, um, you know, like what does, uh, you know, how, how much does your government really cost you kind of thing, you know, and it was breaking it down. It was like, um, like you could see how much each individual

part of the government costs, but then you could zoom out and see the aggregate numbers and then start zooming back in. And it was a really cool visualization of it just to see like, oh, that's how much that cost. Wow. Yeah. Right now I'm looking at firefighter injuries. You know, since 1980, firefighter injuries are down by like half. That's awesome. The number of firefighters is actually

up by 10%. That's cool. Now you know. If you're looking for an idea for an open source project, this is a great place to just go browse and see if you can do something cool. Every article I did find, we're all basically saying all the corporations are moving towards open source. Like we said, it's kind of hard not to. every article I did find that we're all basically saying like, you know,

all the corporations moving towards open source. But yeah, like we said, it's kind of hard not to. And so it's really hard to figure out how to count things. And as far as proprietary software and what companies are running on the servers, like they don't really talk about that.

You know, it's not public, public knowledge in a lot of cases. So good luck. I mean, can you imagine, remember the, the Intel inside days

you know like and you would see that that huh no you're talking about like on the computer like the sticker yeah yeah oh yeah yeah double inside okay i mean you would you would like if you were to walk down say like a a row in a server uh server right? Like, I mean, you just see like Intel, Intel, Intel, like all over it, right? Like imagine if they were required to include the open source license that was in use, all of the open source licenses

that were in use on each server. Now, as you walk by, like you would trip, you couldn't, you couldn't walk down the aisle because of all the, the different light licenses. Yeah. You know,

actually I went looking, I was like, you know, I wonder if windows has someplace that like just lists every license that's used like by windows, uh, in some sort of file. Like it makes sense that there is one,

but I couldn't find it on my computer oh but speaking of Windows you know we talked about open source one thing I thought about is they have such a big emphasis on backwards compatibility and security that it might be a little weird to like release software that like I don't know maybe is there for backwards compatibility

reasons but has security vulnerabilities that haven't been found so maybe I don't know companies wouldn't be too interested in them releasing that. I mean, but why? Because, because they don't want to upgrade XP.

But I mean, how many companies use Linux? Well, that's freely available. That's open source. The argument is that you release it and then people find those vulnerabilities. When we plug those holes,

you got more eyes on it and things end up better for, you know, but that all kind of relies on those companies also upgrading that software when a fix comes out. And we've got so many cases where like companies are running XP or, you know, ancient versions of windows and windows can't upgrade or don't want to. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. I, I definitely agree with, you know, it doesn't do you any good to release the open source if you're not going to allow for contributions. Because your greatest chance of having other people to help you find those problems is because they're incentivized because they know that they're, you're going to take their, their commit. Right. Yeah. But there's also something to be said too about from a security point of view

about it, it being, you know, code being available to be reviewed by security experts and to be, to get like a, an audit done. Do you remember, um, what was that? Uh, was it called true crypt?

Yeah. And, and, and they finally, you know, uh, went through an audit for that and it turned out like, Hey,

there were some legit problems with it. It, it wasn't as, uh, you know, flawless as everybody had hoped that it would be. Yeah. But yeah,

I've heard about them when they took a hard look at like open SSH and stuff a couple of years ago too. They found all sorts of problems. So just because it's open source doesn't automatically make it better. Right? Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah.

So I got a couple of like really just one big section on kind of the different people that make open source and like why they make it and the kinds of things that they make. So the first section has got kind of individual. So like when you say open source, my mind still thinks about like the individual person releasing something on the Internet and kind of maintaining it and, or, you know, maybe groups of people, but I still associate open source software with individual authors and maintainers. And the projects that I think about, like, if you asked me to like,

who makes open source, I'd be like, Oh, it's the people. And then you asked me to name like 10 open source projects. I'm going to name 10 gigantic projects run by giant foundations and companies. Yeah. You know, there's a a there's a weird disconnect there yeah i i mean i think it's so it's because it's as an individual trying to create some big project

like that like that's um I think that's going to be rare and difficult. Like, like I actually find it incredibly impressive that, uh, Linus created two amazingly, uh, popular and just awesome, uh, you know, software projects. We are on a first name basis, by the way. I forgot that. I forgot that. I probably should have started with that. But, you know, I mean, that's like hitting a grand slam, and then your next time at bat, you hit another grand slam again.

Like, it's so rare. Like, i would consider myself lucky if i had one major project like i'm sure i'm sure a lot of developers would and and he he has two that he can like you know credit with like that are major you know massive uh that had that that had a profound impact on all developers around the world and how they work. Right? Yeah. I mean, that's so amazingly awesome in my books.

Like, you know, history is going to have fond things to say of him. Well, think about it. If you were to try and run off and create the next new great open source operating system, you have some stiff competition. Right? Yeah. When he created Linux, there wasn't much

of a gooey, I assume it was all probably command line when he started. And when you think about if you were to come up with a now, there's like the things that you have to come up with a, now there's like the, the things that you have to implement yourself to compete with windows and all the various servers of Linux, that it's basically impossible for a single individual to really create a new operating system, uh, or a browser or, you know, the next Kubernetes, like Kubernetes

is like a billion lines of code. You just can't do it as an individual. You have to work with others. Yeah. I mean, or some of the, some of those great ideas are just like you said, with the, the, the Chromium and he's like, Hey, we just, here's an idea. We're, we're happy to fund it. And, you know, um, but let's, you know, see what happens. Like when I was like so surprised, we talked about that with the, uh, the Octoverse episode that,

you know, there were people who were like literally paid to work on open source software. Yep. Like I didn't realize that was a thing. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah.

That's crazy. Uh, it's still very strange, man. It's, it's, there's not a lot of optics into it. It's,

uh, it's hard to see. Yeah. But, uh, I still think that there are a ton of libraries that if you were to go to GitHub and just spin a random dial and pick a random project, it's probably going to be a single author, no contributors,

no stars, abandoned five years ago. So if we're counting that as open source, then it probably is still that individual authors write the vast majority of open source software. But if you use the definition that's worked on in open governance then that's going to probably exclude i don't know maybe all that stuff yeah and that would change things and so maybe you'd spin the dial and find out that hey most of the open source

that people actually use and participate in is actually backed by really large companies or corporations. Yeah. I don't know, but I just think it's interesting to kind of think about reconciling what you think. Yeah. I've got a couple of articles here. We'll have some stuff in the resources. Yeah, there's going to be a lot

of good links in this episode. One thing I think was interesting is I remember hearing that Microsoft was one of the biggest contributors to open source now. And so I went to see exactly what they were contributing. And it's a lot. I've got a list coming up. But VS Code is actually the number one project on GitHub, which is pretty interesting. So that's them all the way. Number two is Azure Docs.

Wait, wait, wait. VS Code is the number one Microsoft project on GitHub, or it is the number one project on GitHub? Number one by star. I'm not sorry, not stars. By contributors. Really? Yep.

There's more contributors to that than there are to like android or kubernetes or chromium or almost three times as many as kubernetes uh and those other ones that you mentioned aren't listed huh okay yep uh azure docs is number two with 14,000. Azure Docs? Yeah, that's weird. Oh, wait, no. First, I thought you meant like the Microsoft documentation because if you go to their documentation, the beautiful thing about their documentation is you see a problem

or something you want to correct, there's a link right there. Click it, and you can submit a pull request to fix it right but i don't know that that's what they refer to this is literally the documentation for azure it's that bad that it's the number two project yeah you know if you're if your open source project has a code of conduct then it's probably pretty big okay okay yep so yeah i thought that's interesting and uh of course microsoft is all the normal stuff that you think of but microsoft has several uh other companies which i'll keep saying well it's coming up but uh just thought it was kind of interesting um this just to see like how many contributors are involved in those and so why do you think people like individuals outside of work why do they

create open source projects the funny answer or uh both real answer oh i mean like really the the smarty pants was thinking like oh because you know you're just being lazy you're like i don't want to learn that but hey or i don't want to learn react you already know react how about you like jump in and i'm gonna do all the server side stuff no yeah okay but focus on something but i i think nowadays though too it's just like so uh ingrained in people you know that to just do everything out in the open and just like hey here's my github repo and then somebody else is like oh hey yeah that's cool like you know like when you were learning um and and experimenting with like uh react and uh elastic search and um you know for the qit project right like i mean it wasn't intended to be like hey everybody

contribute but according to these definitions it's definitely an open source project because there were a couple dozen people contributing to it. It's probably on here on top open source projects. Yeah. I kind of thought about why

we looked at those big lists of the top ones by start and we saw a lot of it was just learning materials. So we think part of it is maybe building cred. You do something in public because private repos are free, but you do something in public because you want to start building up a portfolio because you want to get a job or do something like that. So you kind of want to build up this code cred.

Yeah. So that's part of it. Also, maybe you have some that you want to scratch. Maybe you want to get feedback. Maybe you want to get contributors because you've got an idea for something. You think it could be really good and you want help on it. I think all those reasons are good reasons. Makes sense.

Yeah. Uh, so corporations, corporations, corporations, a lot of corporations have open source that are like utilities or tools for those companies. So, you know, we mentioned like Microsoft having tons of projects. A lot of those are like Azure libraries or C sharp libraries or tools for interacting with our other sources,

like libraries for interacting with SharePoint or Office. You understand why they would make those open source. They're giving those things away, making it as easy as possible because they want you to use their other stuff. They want it to be as easy as possible. Amazon, pretty much all of their open source projects are directly involved with AWS and making it easier to do things like APIs, libraries. It's like the first one's free. You get them hooked, right?

Yeah, make it easy. Yeah, so this is just a way of keeping them hooked. Yep, totally. And many open source projects are stewarded by a single company. Like I mentioned, Elastic earlier, Confluent, does a lot of stuff with Kafka. And they don't necessarily always own i think they aren't the maintainers they don't own the keys uh on the github but um they just have a kind of outsized influence and they offer services around those and uh you could see like those the boards or the people that make the decisions for

those products are heavily involved with the companies that support them. But I'm not wrong though, in that sometimes those companies are also like literally footing a bill. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean,

they're, they're not just like, uh, managing that for the heck of it. No, not at all. Like, uh,

when you think about someone like, you know, I'll just kind of pick a confluent out here. Um, so confluent does not own Apache. They didn't create it. They aren't the maintainers of it now. It's an Apache

project that was created by LinkedIn. Confluent sells services. They have Confluent Cloud. They have some hosted stuff around it. They put out a ton of learning resources and books and videos. If legal issues come up or

arise or deciding what features come out in the next version. They're heavily involved in all that. All specific to the Kafka project. Yeah. That's their bread and butter. Everything Kafka. And they've written a lot of services around it that work together really well.

Some are open source, some aren't. But they have a vested interest in Kafka doing really well. And Kafka has a vested interest in having clear leadership and steering when it comes to figuring out new versions and the direction they're going to go. Right. Like you can't have an open source project that just accepts any PR, any pull request. Someone needs to decide, like, yes, this is the direction we want to go in, or no, it's not. Yeah, this fits in with our strategic roadmap, or this goes against it. Yep.

And so LinkedIn, when they gave that project over to Apache, they basically said, at that point, we want you to run this. We want you to pick the people that are going to make those decisions. We want you to foot the bill for hosting any resources or materials for it, any marketing, all that stuff. We want you to foot that bill. And maybe we'll give you a bunch of money. Maybe we'll donate in order to make that work. But that's what happens. I just felt that was weird though like why why would a company let's let's focus on

linkedin for a moment like why give it up is it because like you don't want to maintain it anymore like you're like hey we've moved on but here's this thing that we were using five years ago and you know have at it you know do know, do go wild with it? Or is it that they want to keep using it, but maybe they think like, hey, you know what, there's only so much creativity we are going to come out with on our own. And so maybe if we let others see this thing that we're doing, then, you know, we can get, you know, get reap the benefit of other creative people that are out there in the world that don't necessarily work for us. Yeah, I think that's probably how they phrase it.

They say they want collaborators and they want more diverse opinions, and so they're happy to have a board that owns it, and they'll happily take a couple seats on that board in order to help steer it, but they don't need to be the ones that run it. But yeah, that is a big question I keep having is like, why do these companies keep giving, like creating these projects and then giving them up to these foundations? I mean, think about how weird that part of what you just said is too, though.

Like a board, right? When you think of a board, if it's not like a company's board that you're thinking of, then it's like, what company's board that you're thinking of then it's like what an hoa board but now we're talking about like every software project out there like yeah has a board to maintain it like that's crazy right oh well the board doesn't maintain it they just make the decisions oh well that's what i meant that's what right yeah yeah they're not necessarily contributors which is weird to me like the apache Foundation, if you go look who's on the boards for these things,

Kubernetes has special interest groups and special interest group leaders, and they aren't necessarily the people committing the most code, but they've got the connections. They're able to kind of put the pieces together. A lot of times they're almost like project managers. Yeah, they're helping to steer the direction to keep it on the roadmap, right? Yep. So, yeah. Interesting, though.

Yeah, so why do corporations, I don't know. Maybe we'll have some better answers as we keep going on, but I don't know. So, Microsoft got a couple of their big projects. Some.NET, you know, obviously, like, very closely associated with.NET. Other ones

people maybe don't realize like Helm. I didn't realize Helm. It was created by a company that Microsoft bought. That makes more sense. It was an acquisition. What do they call that? Aquahire or something.

Yeah. Aquabuild or something. Yeah. Same with Postgres. They bought Citus, which is the company that was, uh, maintaining the keys to Postgres. Whoa,

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

No, that's not true. Citus data. Yes. Microsoft bought Citus data, but I didn't think that Citus data owned the keys to the Postgres castle. I thought that they were just, uh, a, a add on, Citus Data owned the keys to the Postgres castle. I thought that they were just a

add-on on top of Postgres for doing tenant sharding. Am I wrong? I thought they were the ones that actually were maintaining in the way that Confluence, so maybe they don't necessarily own it, but they're

the company who runs it. So who does own Postgres? Let's go find out. I'll go find the source code for it. Isn't it weird to not even know where your software comes from? It's like, yeah, we trust Postgres. Billions of people use it. Who makes it?

I don't know. Well, I mean, the official mirror is on github for postgres but yeah i mean you have to go to the post postgres sequel.org itself though but even then i don't You're going to see who owns it. Yeah. Uh, I don't know how to even tell. That's weird,

right? Yeah, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure though that it's not Citus. Because I feel pretty confident in saying that Citus is like an add-on on top of Postgres. And their main claim to fame is, I mean, you can use them as like a software-as-a- service type of setup. And it used to be based on like AWS and then Microsoft bought them and they were moving it over to Azure. But they're one of their big features was the fact that you could do a multi tenant database and that they were,

they would shard that database on a tenant for you. So it was pretty cool. Yeah. I do see that. Yeah. They're a leader in Postgres, but not necessarily own it. But who,

who does this is Postgres under Linux foundation. Um, it's released under its own license under that. Maybe it's still one person. It's like under its own license. Under the PostgreSQL license. Maybe it's the one person. It's like Postgres Governance. Yeah, I have no idea. There is the PostgreSQL Global Development Group.

But this is also, too, where, like, you know, myself and I'm sure others, like, I'm so guilty of, like, not caring. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like, I love Post postgres i don't need to know who's governing it until the time that i do need to own it and by then i probably like found out because something went sideways and i'm like oh god yeah yeah it's just kind of strange to me to not know like who's behind stuff and like you you know, what motivations maybe they have, like what direction they're going in. So I don't know.

VS code, obviously Microsoft owns NPM. Have you ever looked at any big project though and thought, Hey, I want to see what the project roadmap is for that. I want to know what the project roadmap is for Kubernetes. Like, have you ever done that?

Really? Yeah. Yeah. Elastic, like Elastic is really yeah yeah elastic like elastic's really good about publishing like the roadmap and stuff and so they are kind of letting you know all the time what's coming and they do a lot of releases huh but yeah like i listen to podcasts and stuff about kubernetes so i'm familiar with like the bigger things that are kind of coming out and like kafka talking about getting rid of zookeeper okay i'm not gonna count podcasts. I mean, I get it. But, but in that case, like you're listening to a technology specific podcast and, and of course, you know, what else are they going to talk about? Of course, they're going to talk about the thing, you know, upcoming features are going to be like one of the big topics. I see that. That makes sense. But I'm saying like, you know, pick some other project then fine, like react. And you're like, oh, I wonder what they plan to release in two years from now for React. Like what's on the roadmap for two years from now?

I've never cared to go look at any project like that. Unless it was like a software that I needed a feature right now and I know that and I happen to find out like, hey, they're developing it, it's going to be developed in like the next six months or the next year. And then I'm like, okay, fine. Let's, let's keep, uh, you know, I, I can, I can, I feel okay going with that project. Cause I know that the feature I'm looking for is coming. Right. But I know there's things that we knew were coming in, like C sharp that we're excited about, like do our features.

Like, but part of that's kind of running a podcast and looking for stuff. Yeah, I didn't know the NPM though. GitHub technically bought it, but they bought it after Microsoft bought GitHub. So another Aqua hire, I think is. Yeah. And that's another example of like where it can be really hard to know who owns a company because or who runs an open source project because you find some little company you've never heard, like, you know, a brand new developer or, you know, like someone who's just starting out, you know, you could easily never realize that this is Microsoft or that it's owned by Microsoft. So why did Microsoft buy them? by them. Well, I mean, I think it makes sense because like I said earlier, Microsoft was the hardware and software tailored towards the developers, right? So them staying...

Microsoft's goal has always been to make things easier for the developer. That way the developers will continue to use their platforms. And so if that's GitHub, then it makes sense that they would use GitHub. That makes sense to me.

Now, while I said that I don't pay attention, I don't go looking for things, when I do stumble across things on the roadmap, then I do get excited because one of them I did see for GitHub, which was the Codes uh code spaces which i see now i i went to the home page just to see what was on there and i see it uh there's a a thing talking about that where they're they're coming out with that which is going to be like visual studio code in your browser that's gonna be awesome you know it's funny it's like if you go look at like microsoft they have an open source page. It's kind of crazy how many projects that they don't list that are kind of closely related.

They don't say anything about Postgres, even though they've got Citus, which have open source tools around Postgres. They don't say anything about NPM. It's just kind of weird that they maintain the branding separate for GitHub. Like, GitHub has such a strong identity, and they preserved it. Yeah. Yeah, good on them. It's fine with me. Maybe one day they won't, but, you know, whatever.

Anyway, it seems to be working out well for me. I mean, even if you go to the About page for GitHub, though, you still don't realize. I mean, it says headquartered in San Francisco. Yeah. Microsoft isn't headquartered in San Francisco. Nope. So they're still acting very independent. Yeah.

So right on. All right. Google. Are you familiar with any Google projects? Well, I mean, I see your list here but i mean obviously the big the big the big ones that we've already talked about kubernetes angular uh chromium android go tensorflow those would be the big ones that come to mind but i see some other ones that you have here that i'm like okay yeah uh you know like you have you have proto buff and dart and flutter and scaffold how can i forget

scaffold yeah um you know they don't even list scaffold uh it's like under some like google container tools a generic sounding name that has a bunch of other tools do you think they're embarrassed by it that's why i i don't know i'm trying to i'm trying to get a top level it's so good yeah do you know google uh started yeoman i did not yeah wait really i believe so no it can't be they had a list on their website really yeah let's see here as we as we search the internet let's see here. As we search the internet. Let's see. What does Wikipedia say? Primary contributors are on the Google Chrome Developer Relations team.

Released at Google I.O. in 2012. So it was released at Google I.O., which you can only assume means that it was by them, but you know, that's an assumption. Yeah. I wonder who it's under now. So I just found it from their original source. Yeah.

Google. Yep. It's a list under Google open source. Huh? I didn't know. I realized that. All right. BSD too.

Oh, here's the GitHub repo. Let's see who is under. Oh, it's the GitHub repo. Let's see who's under. Oh, it's just under Yeoman. Yeah, so Google's got a lot. And so Facebook. We mentioned

React, but they've got a few other things too, like GraphQL. RocksDB, we've talked about Presto a few times. Jest, the big testing library for JavaScript. PyTorch. Oh, that's pretty cool. I didn't realize PyTorch was Facebook.

Really? Yeah. Man, this is what I'm saying. I don't care. Yeah. Now, I will very uh take something for granted but yeah it says uh facebook's ai research lab yep which goes by the acronym fair very funny uh so oracle owns uh java and my sequel and MySQL, kind of famously. Yeah, I thought both of those were weird. Yeah, I agree.

Them taking MySQL felt really weird, but also when Sun was going under and companies were clamoring to buy it, to buy up Sun, because they wanted Java. And I remember IBM was one of them back in the day that had an interest in it. And I was like, who cares? It's a language. Like, why?

Why do you want to own it? I don't care. I don't understand. I don't get it. I still don't. I really don't. They released an Enterprise Edition. I still don't understand. I don't get it. I still don't. I really don't. They released an Enterprise Edition. I still don't understand how that works.

I guess maybe they just wanted to make sure that any investments that they had already made in Java didn't go away with Sun's demise. Yeah. And at the time they bought it, like Java was definitely super hot. So maybe it was kind of like GitHub, uh, acquisition by Microsoft, like Oracle wanted to, to kind of get a seat at the table. Yeah, maybe some of the newer tools.

So they didn't want to just have the Oracle databases. They kind of diversified into some other popular tools. I mean, would it, if it was today though, well, I guess this is going to be a dumb question, but I'm good for that.

Um, if it was, if it was. If Sun was to go out today, would they just say to the Apache Foundation, like, here's Java, we don't want it to die, and then we're going to just shut the doors in peace and quiet? Or would they still sell it? And of course, they would still sell it to make the money. Yeah. Like Docker spun off and sold their enterprise division and their services division when they were struggling. It was a Morantis bottom. Interesting. Yeah. It's weird. So why do corporations publish open source software? Street cred. Oh, I don't know.

That's a, I think about answer. Also, you know, like some obvious answers like the AWS libraries that we talked about, like where it makes it easier to work with their other tools that they do charge money for. Yeah, I mean, making it easier to use their tools and then getting hooked on their tools definitely makes a lot of sense. Yep. And Kubernetes, I think, is a really interesting play because Google, they're on the number three, number four cloud position. And then they released this really big tool that made it easier than ever before to have these portable clouds and made it hard to switch. It's like it makes sense for them to release something that kind of like democratizes that a little bit or commoditizes it a bit, and so that's a really powerful play for them.

They've also got tools like Angular. We didn't even mention like Material, like CSS frameworks. Like they have a vested interest in people using the internet more and having good tools and good user experiences to keep people on their stuff. Well, I mean, we've talked about it in the past. Like, you know, if you, if you were to use a provider like an AWS, for example, right. You know, if you're just using them for like VMs and you're still just like spinning up

your own VMs and everything, like you're not really taking advantage of what they're offering. Right. But then if you, if you do really take advantage of what they offer, then like their tentacles are really woven into your processes and how you work. And it, it is like a huge effort to move off of that platform and onto something else. And so, yeah, if you, if you have something like a Kubernetes, then you don't have that anymore. Right.

Yeah. Or at least maybe you reduce it a lot, you know, um, there might be still some parts of, of a provider's service that you still want to use. So, and you can see with Google too, like why

they gave kubernetes over to a foundation like maybe part of that is because they want it to kind of be a neutral player they don't want it to be their tool because they want azure and aws to support it and so they want azure and aws to have seats on that board to help make those decisions together to kind of bring them into the fold because they want everyone to use kubernetes because they want to make it real easy to switch to them right right yeah so that's one reason there's some other ones like react like well you know what like why did facebook release react well just backing up real quick to the kubernetes thing though by them releasing by google releasing it though it would also add some, or giving it

to the foundation, then it would add some kind of credibility to say, hey, we aren't the, quote, owners of this thing. We're a contributor, and you're welcome to be a part of it, too. Yeah, gives them a little bit of distance there, but not too much distance. Right. They still have influence. Plausible deniability. Yeah.

The expression was that commoditize your compliments. So if you've got these two big competitors and they have all these managed services that you can't compete with as they're all very specific, well, it kind of makes sense for you to try and kind of make those irrelevant by releasing something that's so good and generic. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and it only took like two billion lines of code to do it. Right. So get started, and yeah, you could compete. Oh, yeah, but why React? I mean, it's a JavaScript library.

You're going to figure it out anyways. Yeah. Was part of that maybe Facebook wanting to kind of improve their image with developers maybe? I'm just guessing. I really don't know. I mean, I've always thought that from a developer point of view, like Facebook, you know, regardless of what you think about the dot com, right, in social media or anything like that, forget that part of it. But from a technology point of view, like they've done some awesome stuff, right? GraphQL, React, Presto flux. I didn't even

realize pie torch. So, you know, um, so yeah, I mean, specific to react, why react? I don't know. I mean, I guess if they're already contributing so much else, then why not also add React to it? But maybe part of it too, is just like getting buy-in, like, you know, like maybe a motivation for a company is like getting buy-in from others, like, hey, how crazy is this idea? And, you know, here's what we're doing. And we wanted to share this with others and get feedback from it. So, you know, yeah, because I mean, there is something to be said about like the, you know, the free labor kind of aspect of, of releasing it, of, of companies releasing software, you know?

Yeah. Google just wants you to use the internet more. They want you to search more, browse more, buy more. Facebook doesn't really want you to leave Facebook though. So it's, it's, it is kind of an odd conflict for them to release anything that helps other people make better websites. Yeah. It might draw attention away from them. So, yeah, maybe street cred.

Maybe they just wanted to be more of a tech powerhouse. They wouldn't have a couple of big projects there to kind of associate their name with, you know, for either hiring or whatever. But I don't know. I don't still I don't have a good answer for it. to kind of associate their name with, you know, for either hiring or whatever. But I don't know. I don't have a good answer for it. But, you know, kind of like Oracle when they bought Java MySQL. Like maybe it just had something to do with like them kind of having some influence over these projects in the direction of the web. Yeah, I'll buy that.

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It puts a smile on our face. Just to know if we had any impact at all or just how you enjoy listening to the episode or whatnot. Uh, we, we do greatly enjoy reading those reviews. And, um, so you can find a helpful link at another link, which is, uh, are we going by whistle,

whistle, whistle now? So it was a, was a, was a dot coding blocks.net. I feel like Snoop dog is reading our, our URL now. Yeah.

It was a, was a, was a dot coding blocks dot net slash review. And there's at least one helpful link on there. But yeah, anywhere where you can leave, you know, whatever,

however you like to listen to your podcast, wherever you can leave a review, we would greatly appreciate it. And if you have already, hey, thank you. Thank you. Then you've probably heard your name on the show. So with that, we head into my favorite portion of the show. Hey, it's Dad Jokes.

So, hey, Joe, what did they say to the guy who invented zero oh geez um i i don't i don't know thanks for nothing oh man okay terrible all right well yeah the dad jokes always are so that one was contributed by Mike RG again. Nice. We should just rename that portion of the show. Where did you get that from? Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. He's probably on all of the dad joke subreddits or something. I'm sure there's got to be some good ones. Yeah, maybe he makes them all up. Yeah. Oh, man, that's super creative. That would be a good one. He should probably get a job as a comedian and stop listening to us. Yeah. Maybe he makes them all up. Yeah. Oh man. That's super creative. That would be a good job as a comedian and stop listening to us. All right. So, uh, with that, uh, we head into survey says, all right.

So, uh, well, I guess, you know, it just being the two of us, it would be a little odd if I were to ask you a question and, you know, see or ask you like what you thought the survey was and who had the who got closer to it because there'd only be the one winner. And somehow I'm still sure that the math of a chicken. I can still lose. Figure out a way to mess that up. So instead, I think what we'll do is we'll pause on going over the previous survey. But we will ask, specific to this episode, we're talking about a lot of open source, so this is very topical here. Which company has the best open source. So this is very topical here. Uh, which company has the best open source projects? And we've narrowed it down to just three for you to choose from. So you got to pick one of these

three. So it's either Facebook, Google, or Microsoft. And, and we'll leave it there. Can't, don't, don't, don't taint the jury pool. Yeah. This episode is sponsored by Linode. Simplify your infrastructure and cut your cloud bills in half with Linode's Linux virtual machines. Develop, deploy, and scale

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And Linode has data centers around the world with the same simple and consistent pricing regardless of location. Now, I'll mention $100 in free credit. I just today set up a three node Kubernetes cluster that's costing me $30 a month for three nodes. It's an amazing deal. And by the way, that wasn't the minimum that just happened to be what I chose. And I set it up in minutes, I got my stuff deployed. It's running great. It was crazy how easy it was to do and how cheap you can get that

for. And it's just up and running. I'm still stunned at how easy and just good the user experience was. And it gives you a great way to try this stuff out and to actually share your server side code with other people. So I chose the data center that was nearest to me. And now I'm thinking about maybe I'm going to change it to a data center that's closer to where I'll be presenting for a user group next week because that's what I'm going to be using that cluster for. So, hey, maybe I'll be moving it, and that will probably take me about five minutes. And you also receive 24-7, 365 human support. That's human support with no tiers and no handoffs, regardless of your plan size. Yeah, and Linode is awesome.

I mean, we've been using Linode for years. This show has literally, you know, Linode has been our backbone for several, several years. And why? Because it's easy, it's cost effective, and it's been super reliable for us. So you can choose shared and dedicated compute instances, or you can use your $100 free credit on S3 compatible object storage or managed Kubernetes like Joe is or more. There's more. Whatever you want to choose to spend it on. I can't stress enough. It's a hundred dollars in free, uh, you know, credit for you by signing up.

So if it runs on Linux, it runs on Linode, visit linode.com slash coding box. That's L I N O D E.com slash coding box and click on the free, uh, create free account button to get started. All right. And so, uh, the final group I wanted to talk about here were, uh, foundations and foundations, like we mentioned before, our organizations that, uh, that own open source projects and, uh, a lot of different kinds of different ways of running governance models like we mentioned the benevolent dictator for life who retired now there's a Python

foundation responsible for doing that they have elections they elect people to make decisions but some of the things that foundations are responsible for are code stewardship, like deciding what pool requests to merge versions,

like what's coming out next. What are we going to support? Sometimes setting a long-term support is really important. What they're going to still taking contributions for planning future versions, big time things like a kafka announced they were going to get rid of zookeeper it feels like two years ago now like talking about that forever and it's getting close but you in order to make a such a big change like that and do it in a way

that doesn't break anybody you got to take a lot of baby steps to get there which requires planning wait you said they're going to get rid of zookeeper yep they're getting rid of zookeeper i didn't realize that yep so they're going to get rid of Zookeeper? Yep, they're getting rid of Zookeeper. I didn't realize that. Yep. So they're going to start storing the things that they store in Zookeeper now in Kafka. It's like Kafka on Kafka. And they're going to be moving the leader election type stuff out of Zookeeper into Kafka. But Zookeeper, I thought, was used for more than just Kafka. Oh, yeah.

So it's used for all sorts of stuff, but they're just cutting out as a dependency. Oh, just out of Kafka then? Yep, just out of Kafka. Oh, yeah. So it's used for all sorts of stuff, but they're just cutting out as a dependency. Oh, just out of Kafka then? Yeah, just out of Kafka. Okay. Zookeeper will still hang around for other uses. Yep. Like today, if you were to set up the most simple Kafka setup, you'd have one broker and one Zookeeper. Gotcha.

And they want to get rid of the dependency just to get rid of the dependency. It's not like Zookeeper did anything wrong, but I just want to cut it. I get that. Okay. So support, I mentioned bug fixes, stuff like that. Also, certification. And when I say certification, there's kind of a couple different ways to do that. Like one, there are certificates like the certified Kubernetes administrator

or there's all sorts of certifications that you can get. But a lot of times the foundations are responsible for figuring out what those tests should be, what that testing process should look like, how long those certifications are good for, how much they cost, all that sort of stuff. Also, projects

like Kubernetes are really interesting and then they have certified Kubernetes where if you're, say, a Linode or a DigitalOcean or somebody who wants to offer Kubernetes, you as a provider have to go out and fill in a lot of blanks so that Kubernetes can spin up your load balancers or set up your DNS or do all those various things that have to interact with your cloud service. And there's a huge checklist of criteria you have to meet in order to say we offer Kubernetes. So you can't just go and sell Kubernetes as a service without checking these boxes, or else they'll probably sue you. And can you imagine? I mean, Kubernetes specifically sounds like it would be a very difficult one for providers to be able to keep up with specifically sounds like it would be a very difficult one for, for providers to be able to keep up with because there's so much stuff

changing with it. You know, I mean, not, not in a, I don't mean that in like a, a bad way, like how we've joked about JavaScript libraries in the past,

but, but just, you know, even, even just maintenance fixes, like it just seems like it would be a headache yeah you know to to keep up with that not you know you fill out the form the first time and then you know but by the time you get done it's time to start over filling it out a

second time yeah totally kubernetes has this whole thing with version upgrades like uh you know someone like a digital ocean or leno can say hey we we have Kubernetes 1.7 and we'll have support for 1.8. It's not simply a matter of upgrading the software that they're running. They have to go and get recertified, which is kind of a big deal. It's a big process. And that's important because it's important because it guarantees that you have a consistent user experience across all these platforms. Because that's kind of the thing with Kubernetes is like, they don't want to say like, well, this Kubernetes has these features

and these have these features and it would totally dilute the brand and would be a big mess if there wasn't this sort of process. And you can understand why Google wouldn't want to be the only ones in charge of that because that kind of puts them in this position of being gatekeeper. And then maybe Azure says, hey, Google's not playing fair because they're not certifying me. But by having this be a third party, this cloud

native computing foundation, in this case, that helps them move that along. Or worse, it would put Google in a position of trying to maintain the internet. Yeah, absolutely. Google maybe doesn't want that maybe they do but uh azure and aws certainly don't want them to i mean we could definitely say

back in the days when their motto was their their corporate motto was don't be evil then they would but now we don't know it's just an unknown and i just i like i just set up uh linode I just set up Linode. I set up Kubernetes on Linode just tonight. It was really easy and it just worked. I was able to take my stuff that worked in Docker and just run it up in their cluster. And that works because of this whole process, which is really good.

So financial support. All those things that I talked about, you know, like even the hosting, the certification process, security audits, for example, are really important. All that stuff costs money. So it's open source, but it can cost a lot of money. In fact, CNCF just got like a $3 million grant from Google. And that's just the most recent grant to run the project in their suite of projects that they run.

I wonder if these foundations work as non-profits. Yeah. Everyone I've looked at has one. Yep. Sometimes they have salaries, though. There can be a lot of people that are employees. Oh, no, no, no. I don't mean that the people aren't paid and don't have a salary, but I mean the foundation

isn't trying to make a profit. Yep. paid and don't have a salary but i mean like the foundation isn't trying to make a profit yep found linux foundation apache cncf all non-profits okay yep and a lot of them you'd be surprised like i would have assumed that they all a lot of them have uh have full-time positions but most of them don't most are volunteer and most of the volunteers come from one of those big companies like the google's amazon's whatever like um linode i'm sure has as representatives on uh some of these things and in particular like uh you know when i say board i don't necessarily mean that there's five people sitting making all the decisions about linux like the board may be over all sorts of other subgroups and committees and stuff that kind of funnels things up. And ultimately them is like the executive,

you know, people that sign the checks or whatever, but it's complicated and big. Yeah. I mean, just trying to even keep up with like something as simple, simple, something the size of a browser.

Right. I mean, that, that the size of a browser, right? I mean, that alone sounds difficult just because not only everything that you might want to introduce into the browser, but then keeping up with all the JavaScript standards, all the HTML standards, the CSS standards, you know, like, ugh. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. And think about, too, the liability. Like, open source projects get sued. And sometimes open source projects sue.

You can imagine if somebody starts, you know, bootlegging or releasing software as, like, Angular that isn't really about Angular. Or, you know, maybe using the brand in ways that aren't allowed. You know, we are jerks. There's a big one that we haven't even discussed. I don't think we've mentioned it once. Who? I'll give you three seconds. See if you can guess.

Okay. Mozilla. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think we've said Mozilla yet. Like, Firefox came to mind. When I mentioned the browsers, I was yeah, yeah. I don't think we've said Mozilla yet. Like, Firefox came to mind when I mentioned the browsers. And I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Who funds Mozilla?

That's kind of Netscape a little bit. So I know Google is a big backer of Mozilla. I don't know who else, though. But, yeah, they're a nonprofit. But they have tons of employees that do stuff. They made Rust. They do Firefox. They have Firefox VPN and all sorts of other services, too.

But what's funny about Firefox in particular, if you go to their website, Firefox Foundation, or sorry, Mozilla Foundation, and look at their projects, they don't really list their technical projects. They list like the, the things that they're fighting for, like privacy and open source. And like, that's kind of like the, the things that they want to highlight as opposed to these other projects that are more about the project. So it's,

it's almost like Mozilla is almost like a, I don't want to say a political organization, but they have a mission. Yeah. It's like they're lobbying the internet for things. Yep. And in addition, you know what Mozilla does that's particularly interesting is they do a lot of funding of other projects.

So if you have a project that fits in with their vision, you can write to them and say like, hey, I've got a project idea that is going to fight against the disparities in YouTube's recommendation AI. I'm going to call it YouTube Regrets. Let me apply for a grant. And in this case, it looks like this is a real project. Mazel is like, yeah, sure, here's some money so you can work on that for a while. Did you just make that up off the top of your head? No, that's actually a real one that I got on our website.

Oh, okay. Yep. What is YouTube Regrets regrets i've never heard of that yeah i don't know if this is a software project there's like a big blog entry about it um that's got like a like a list of like kind of 10 horror stories dealing with like youtube and just bad things have happened and how they want to how they want to protect it. Safety, educational videos. Yeah. What we fund. So there's literally a form where you can go ask for money to make something

to make the internet better. If you can reimagine, reconstitute, or rebalance Power Online, go ahead and submit and maybe you'll get a fellowship or an award. Yeah. It's pretty cool, right?

So most big open source projects that you can think of run under some sort of foundation. Facebook is the only one I didn't see them really giving up any other projects to a foundation. But also many other projects are kind of... They're not like a Kubernetes or something where you could see why, you know, like it's like react. What is react hurt from being owned by Facebook other than perhaps the branding? Well,

yeah. I mean, I guess in that case, are they trying to, uh. I mean, I guess in that case, are they trying to distance themselves because of political-type reasons, right? Are they trying to be able to say, like, hey, no, we aren't the ones controlling this project. But maybe in the case of a React, they're like, no, the ones controlling this project, but maybe in the case of like a react,

they're like, no, we're fine controlling it. So I just looked actually graph. QL is a foundation now called the graph. QL foundation. See, is there a react foundation?

No, there's not. So that is still a, that's still Facebook as far as I can tell. Yeah. We'll see. What was the one that Alan... Presto?

Yeah, Presto. Is that still under Facebook? I thought it was. I'm still looking for React. So there's a Presto foundation. Okay, so Facebook has created foundations, and Presto is underneath Presto foundation. Okay. So Facebook has created, uh, foundations and Presto is underneath the Linux foundation.

I bet you that graph QL foundation is also under the Linux foundation. See, wait, you said it's under Linux foundation. Yeah. We'll talk about, uh, maybe we should just talk about it now.

Uh, the Linux foundation, as far as I can tell, it's like the umbrella foundation for so many other foundations. Mozilla might even be under Linux Foundation. Let me see. I don't know. Cloud Native Computing Foundation, they're the ones that have Kubernetes and a bunch of other stuff.

They're under the Linux Foundation. Okay, but what is being under the Linux Foundation by me? I've just developed my brand new project that I want to make it open source. I want to contribute back to the world. I'm releasing the first version of it at the um coding blocks game jim jim jim jim jimuary yep um and uh so yo i want to go to the linux

foundation like why them over apache foundation uh apache might be under linux foundation what let's go see really Really? Under Linux Foundation. I don't know. I mean, look, Apache is one of the oldest ones. Okay, so they are not directly affiliated, although it appears they are good friends. So if you are, let's say you're releasing a game open source and you want to gift it to a foundation, then you may go and talk to like a Linux foundation and say, hey, you guys have a lot, a lot of experience with open source governance running projects. I've got a project that makes sense for you. And they're going to take a look at it and say, you know, yay or nay.

But if they say yes, they'll say, you know what, this makes a lot of sense for us. We're going to take on because it's either really popular or we think it's really important or whatever. Then they're going to assist you and they're either going to say this fits in with one of our other foundations. Like you should go in with this other game foundation that we've got set up that has similar projects. Or they might say, this is kind of its own thing. We're going to work with you and set up a board. And we'd like you to have some representation, maybe some other people that have similar interests. We'll get them all set up. And we'll set this up as like a little sub-foundation nonprofit. And at this point, we'll have it be a separate nonprofit because it just helps keep the kind of the books organized and uh helps with legal liability

but that's how i imagine the linux foundation kind of operating it's like they're this big parent that knows how to run these things really well let's see if the python foundation is under the linux foundation i mean i'm looking at this list, you know, you scroll through it a few times and you got to hit the view more several, several times. And some of those foundations have foundations. Like, well, I'm saying like you scroll through the page and you scroll, you scroll, you scroll, you scroll, you scroll. You finally get to the bottom and realize, oh, I'm still in the C's. Yeah. I haven't gotten past. I haven't even gotten to the bottom and realize, oh, I'm still in the C's. Yeah. I haven't gotten past.

I haven't even gotten to the D's yet. I'm still looking at C, you know, companies that start with this or foundations that start with C or projects that start with a C. That's insane. So the Linux Foundation claims 13 million lines of code added. You want to guess the unit of time? A month. Week. 13 million a week.

So, yeah, that's pretty crazy. 10.5 million lines of code deleted weekly. 18,000 contributing companies companies those either projects or money or work 241 000 contributing developers have you heard of kubernetes yeah yeah that's one they claim what that's a weird one because it's also cloud native competing foundation. What about node JS? Never heard of no JS. Oh yeah. I've heard of it,

but so that's one that, that is part of cloud native or part of, you're saying it's part of the Linux foundation. It's under their umbrella. I think they run under the node foundation, which is like, yeah, another foundation that runs under the Linux foundation, but a Linux foundation claims it.

I'm still looking to see i for react in here and i didn't find it nope but i mean there's so many awesome ones that i do see here like i mean you can't help it like recognize a name like there's prometheus here's rethink db uh i saw strimsy in here like there's also uh some other projects like if you drill into some of these a lot of them aren't necessarily open source projects but I saw Strimsy in here. There's also some other projects. If you drill into some of these, a lot of them aren't necessarily open source projects, but Let's Encrypt is a Linux Foundation project. It's not really open source per se, but it's really important for open source. Okay, no way. If you just scroll through through here it's pretty insane yeah it just keeps on going and going and going

yeah there's so many names here. It's like, geez. Yep. I did find a Reactive foundation. Yeah. But I don't, it's hard to tell. Like, their logo is kind of a play on the React logo. But they never mentioned React.js. So I'm thinking thinking like, okay, maybe it's just coincidentally. Like, it's definitely not the same thing.

I see the GraphQL Foundation, and I see GraphQL.js. Oh, yeah, GraphQL was in there several times. Yeah. Okay, yeah, and I see, yeah. Yeah. They got four entries. gRPC, hey. And that's something I see, yeah. Yeah. They got four entries. GRPC, hey? And that's something I don't understand.

Like, why do you need so many different foundations for it then? Or, well, I guess those are different projects under the one foundation. Hey, our boy Jenkins. JQuery, hey. Yeah, all right. Well, okay. So foundations are an important thing then. Yeah, alright. Well, okay. So foundations are an important thing then. Yeah, absolutely. For all the reasons just memorized or mentioned.

I've memorized them. Don't worry. I'm just in the ends now. There's still no end in sight. It takes a while, right? This is not everything. This is not updated to the second. If you just go look at the Cloud Native Foundation, which we mentioned a few times, it's one of the foundations under here. They have some of the bigger projects mentioned, but not all of them. I mentioned that tool scaffold from Google. It was kind of buried under this other generically named container tools.

Yeah, it's all scrolling and scrolling and scrolling all right so so the foundations then are typically funded by large corporate backers that yeah i mean i'm sure they probably have a patreon or something too but no yeah it's definitely the money is coming from big companies for sure well i mean no but you say that but like if you wanted to contribute, like what if you just wanted to be like, hey, I want to give, you know, a cup of coffee a week to this foundation or, you know, to my foundation of choice. I think you could do that through GitHub a little bit, assuming that the project or the organization has signed up for it. Let's see. I don't see a donate link on Linux Foundation. Well, I think you become a member.

Member? Yeah. That's what I'm going to guess because they have different member levels, platinum and gold, silver, so the different metal. Let's see. I'm trying to find a price for it. Yeah, platinum will get you a seat on the board of directors. Oh, okay. Sweet.

So I'm just going to sign up to be platinum membership then. Yeah, it doesn't say how much it's for. Well, you know what they say. If you got to ask. Oh, yeah. 50 user subscriptions annually for unlimited certification exams. $60,000.

Where did you find that? I was just looking at the platinum benefits. Legal benefits. Three invites for your in-house counsel. So they're just assuming that you've got a legal team. By month of legal calls. I see similar dollar amounts listed under the gold though. Training benefits, 50 user group subscription annually for unlimited e-learning plus 50 certification exams valued at $60,000.

Maybe we can find a list of the platinum members. Well, that's where, yeah, you can. You could say, click on meet our members and you can see who the members are, which they're all like companies. Yeah. Tencent. There's not that many. The Platinum's, there's only

four times 12. Well, wait for the page to finish loading. 12, 15. Yeah, 15 for Platinum. No, no, no. Wait for the page to finish loading. 12, 15. Yeah, 15 for Platinum. No, no, no. Wait for the page to finish loading. The next one is Gold. It starts with Accenture. So Google is only a Gold partner.

Oh, well, I mean, for me, there was Lifetime Platinum members, of which there were the 15, but then the page loaded, and it jumped up a bunch more. Oh, I only see the 17 for, for a platinum, but then, yeah,

I'm talking about Dino's in here. I'm talking about just overall the, yeah. Oh yeah. Overall. Oh yeah. Like as soon as the rest loaded in the page jumped down. Yeah.

I mean, silver. Yeah. The, the number of silver, maybe a couple of bucks and get that silver. What are we good for silver? I mean, like The number of silver. Maybe Coneblocks can get that silver. What do we get for silver? I mean, here's one.

Maybe they spent their money on this and then who knows what happened to them. But Ericsson, that's a company you don't hear about anymore, right? Yep. They used to be a big deal back in the early 2000s. But then I thought they got bought, or at least maybe there was just a partnership with Sony, maybe. Because you always heard about the Sony Ericssons for the phones. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, they're a lifetime Platinum member, even if they aren't a thing anymore.

Yeah, so CodingBlock, we'll go for the silver, but the benefits are like, potentially you get a seat, you can get voted in, but you can nominate. Number two is visibility, and then the other benefits are like, you support us, you support open source security, you enable us to. So it's basically like a donation, which is great. Hey, Ericsson still is a thing. You do get discounts on things like event sponsorships.

That's interesting. Oh yeah, you know, the Linux Foundation is also the stewards of the Linux kernel. Some of these companies, though, you'd be surprised to like okay there's gonna be a bunch of companies in here that you know no surprise right like oh facebook is lifetime platinum member oh what a surprise right yeah you're that one just makes

sense but then you'll see like a toyota as yeah a lifetime gold member like huh here's a there's a bank as a lifetime gold member yeah and you know, huh, here's a, there's a bank as a lifetime gold member. Yeah. And you know, banks aren't exactly known for their charity. So it makes you wonder, it's like, what,

like, what do these companies benefit? You know, like, you know, presumably of course, like the use open source software and they want it to be better and safer. But,

uh, you know, they could save probably a lot of money by just not sponsoring and things would probably still be good. But I guess, I don't know. But, but now do you look down on some,

when you see like, you know, if they're, if they're not a lifetime platinum, because like, you know, you scroll through the list and you see Apple and they're only a silver. You're like, come on, Apple.

Come on. You're Apple. I mean, literally, still the most valuable company on the planet, are they not? Yeah. And you couldn't fork it over to become lifetime platinum? Come on. Come on. Come on. AWS is also silver.

Yeah. Well, maybe they have a limit on the number. I can't imagine that they would have a limit on it, but maybe they do. On the number of platinums that they want. Oh, there's Datadog in there. Yep. which makes sense hey I see a company that we work for companies

that we've worked for yeah yeah no this is I've never bothered to look at this before and now I can't stop scrolling through the list of all the names. Yeah, the logos are cool. Yeah, it's got to the D's too.

That's funny. I'm going to scroll to the end and look for any surprises. Well, I mean, like, it's the weird ones, though, that I was looking for, like, you know. Walt Disney? I guess some of the car ones do make sense, though, like, because now I'm looking like, okay, there's Mazda.

Maybe because of all of the stuff that they're using for like um the infotainment systems these days you know uh so maybe it makes sense i guess i guess nowadays your car does care more about uh open source than it used to but i guess it's possible that some of these projects literally want to buy a seat on the table for very specific projects. Maybe Toyota has a very vested interest

in one of those thousands of foundations that we'd never heard of before. That's super important to their business. I had to put the list away. I was getting too focused on it. Yeah. All right. Like we said, typically was getting too focused on it. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

So like we said, uh, typically they're funded by large corporate backers and, yeah, you'll find a lot. So with the, the, uh,

show notes can be loaded with just like links pointing to things like this. Um, you know, WordPress has its own foundation. I mean, it should, they've got like three quarters of the internet. Yeah.

Uh, I've got, um, I did go look up like three quarters of the internet. Yeah. I've got, I did go look up like the kind of the most common governance patterns or yeah, patterns. BFDL, Benevolent Dictator for Life. So Python, pretty much any small project that any person has started is basically that. Like if you just put a project on Bunk on GitHub, then it's BDFL. You have the final say. You're the only one that can contribute. By definition, that's your governance model.

Meritocracy, by the way, these are not hard black and white definitions. I've got a link to the article I got this from, but there's several other articles that have different notions and they split it up differently. But meritocracy was basically like active contributors are given decision making power. And so someone decides to kind of spread out and they have votes.

So if they want to add a new contributor, then there's going to be some sort of vote behind closed doors and say, hey, welcome to the club. Okay. So if you wanted to be able to have a vote, you'd have to become very active to it, which makes sense. I mean, the people that are very active, they probably have the most intimate knowledge of the inner workings. Yep. And so that's one great argument. And that's how Apache runs all their stuff. If you're an active contributor, we decide, you know, someone who knows that project well is going to decide to bring you into the fold. There is another way, liberal contribution. So these are projects that seek consensus without

having a big formal vote. And the idea here is that they want to bring in more diverse opinions. So rather than having votes behind closed doors or in secret chat rooms, they'll try to be more inclusive. They'll actually campaign and they'll try to get people to agree or disagree or try to build consensus, which can be chaotic, but

also brings in new ideas and new forks and kind of brings in fresh blood and makes the people who use the project more involved in the decision-making process. And node and Rust were mentioned specifically. So it may be a little bit harder to do big changes, but interesting. All right. That's just garbage.

So I've got a couple of foundations here i want to call out so apache you know we mentioned the kind of governance they've got uh you know roughly like a meritocracy type they do have a big diagram up on their website actually where you can kind of see like exactly how things like where's the diagram here um i'm not gonna try to describe anyway but they've got like memberships and boards and committees and executive officers and corporate officers and they actually have a here goes an organization chart uh which like i mean i'm not saying I'm good at charts, but this is not a pretty chart. And just because it's complicated, like lines cross lines. Oh, I do have a link to it. Dang it.

Okay. Okay. It's a weird way of normally you see org charts. It's more like the stuff flowing down, but this is like how it flows back up. Yeah. Yeah, it just how it flows back up yeah yeah just kind of throws about so yeah usually charts help make things make more sense this is a vice president of travel assistance and fundraising and publicity and infrastructure and they have staff and legal counsel and PMCs, whatever that is. So just kind of interesting to see how big it is for Apache. And they have a couple charts on the front of the website, actually,

if you go to their projects page that show kind of stats on language and types of projects. So 58% of the Apache projects are Java. Did you know that underneath their projects, they have some ones you might have heard of like HTTP. So literally the Apache web server. Kafka, Spark, Flink.

And Spark and Flink are interesting because they are like direct competitors they're two streaming platforms for doing data processing that have slightly different not even that different takes on how to do things they also have multiple different languages

Groovy, Avro's Encoding they do Log4J, Log4Net Log4PHP, Log4 a couple others Maven, Lucenep log for a couple others uh maven lucene solar a couple others i'm just i mean that's just some that i got from scrolling through their 350 plus projects so i thought that was kind of interesting and they've got a big list on the website i mean i think that i would i would guess that for for those that have been around for a bit longer, like, you know, Apache and HTTPD were like synonymous for so long.

Yep. Yep. Before Nginx. Yeah, I was going to ask, like, who's the, because you didn't list Nginx, so who is controlling that one yeah that's a good question you know there really is no formal like official way to look this stuff up so it's not weird i understand like why there isn't a standard for it but it's just kind of weird to not know yeah it's under its own Nginx. Is it?

Again, just in GitHub. It's not under Microsoft or something. Nginx. Board of Directors. They have the Board of Directors from Goldman Sachs, uh, some other companies I've never heard of.

Huh? Yeah. I don't know. Oh, uh, F five bought them. Okay. Okay. Wow.

Can't I know what F5 is and we'll move on? They make routers and stuff. They are a race team, and they drive a very cool-looking race car that's white, and it has a red M across the hood and a number 5 on the side. I think they're known for their firewalls. I don't know. I don't actually know what routers are or firewalls, what they do. I think I saw a movie in the 90s about firewall oh yeah did you click on that little pie symbol on the bottom right shift click it yep there you go you got a firewall uh so another uh foundation that we like to talk about is the cloud native computing foundation which is newer they They kind of got started when Google gave them Kubernetes.

And Google kind of, with the Linux Foundation, created this foundation for Kubernetes and cloud-native technologies. So also Helm is a part of this, which we mentioned. There's a lot of overlap with these companies. So Helm, Microsoft, Kubernetes, Google, Prometheus. I don't know where it started, but now it's under Cloud Native Foundation, OpenTracing, FluentD,

and a ton of projects that start with a K or have a very prominent K because there's a lot of Kubernetes tools that are in there. We've talked about Customize. Yep. That's one of them. KubeCuddle. Yeah. So Linux Foundation, we've talked about them quite a bit. They're just over so many, and it's kind of them. Cube cuddle. Uh, yeah. So Linux foundation,

we talked about them quite a bit. Yeah. They're just over so many. And it's kind of funny to see them kind of not, I don't want to say claim, but like the ones that be like, Hey, can we work on these projects?

And you'll see immediately that there's like ones that you've seen in other foundations while researching. It's like, wait, what the heck is going on here? And that's how it kind of ended up falling down that rabbit hole. Well, I mean,

yeah, it could, it's just like, maybe they're like the large umbrella foundation for a bunch of other ones and they'll like group things up into smaller groups as it makes sense and that becomes you know here's the cloud native computing foundation because all of these technologies made sense to group together yeah you know maybe maybe so uh you know what kind of one last question here is uh so you know we talked in the beginning

like about the kind of impressions the developers might have about open source like how do you feel about that impression has your impression of open source and who makes open source and what you think of open source change since having this discussion um no but it is it is like seeing all the people that were the members of the Linux Foundation. I mean, it was eye-opening to see all the people that might have a seat on the board of that, right? And kind of question like, huh, I wonder why does Toyota care? Yeah. It's kind of interesting like, huh, I wonder why does Toyota care? It's kind of interesting. Yeah. Why doesn't Apple

care more? What's the rationale behind some of those decisions? Yeah, I can't explain. If you think of Apple as a hardware company, wouldn't they have an interest in making software easy and easy to make? Well, like you would think so. Does it Xcode still cost money?

It's like, even if it's like five bucks, it's kind of like a weird, no Xcode is free. Okay. But in order to publish on their platform, if you want to, if you want to if you want to uh as i remember it it's been a minute but if you wanted to uh deploy code to your phone to a device then uh in order to be able to sign it to get it on to the device you were going to pay but i think

i think even there though there was a way to like, you could do that. I guess it really only mattered if you wanted to submit it to the App Store. Yeah. Can you imagine Google saying like, just pay $99 if you want to have a website every year. And have it be searchable.

That's totally weird, right? I didn't even think of that. Yeah. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. I don't know. I'll admit, I've seen Linux Foundation a million times in articles on Hacker News or Reddit or whatever, and I always just assume they published a dinky magazine or something. Linux Foundation sounds like a bunch of nerds. And I know.

Actually, they run pretty much all the open source software in the world. Yeah, I definitely have learned a lot about it as a part of this. Or, you know, it's like really opened my eyes up to what it is versus what it isn't. Yep. All right. Well, as we've said, we're going to have a truckload of links to things specific to this episode. And with that, we head into Alan's favorite portion of the show. It's the tip of the week. Oh, okay.

Hey, got mine. So apparently I've never shared this as a tip of the week. I love a plug-in for VS Code named Peacock. It's from John Papa. It lets you change your VS Code colors per project. And what that means is that you can say you have two VS Code editors and they look the same. You can do Control-Shift-P and set the color to one of them to, say, yellow or something. And then from then on, it's going to save that to a private hidden file in that project in that directory.

And every time you open that up, it's going to be that color. So it just makes it really easy to kind of keep your stuff separated so you're not getting confused about which project you're in if you're hopping around. Now, I have been using this plugin since you showed it to me because I was going in, you know, like a caveman and just manually editing the workplace settings, workspace settings myself to change the colors. But how do you change? Have you noticed though that like if you open up a new instance a visual studio like our visual studio code so not specific to any particular path like it still uses one of those other color themes i i didn't notice that maybe i'm just

using it wrong but yeah like if i uh now i'm curious to get back and check if there's something I can change to fix that. Yeah, if I start a new project and do a new clone, mine's just the default kind of way. Really? Yeah. Okay, now I'm jealous. Okay. Meet me out in the parking lot after school at three 15.

And could yours be because you were changing around some colors and stuff? Maybe some default settings got changed. Um, I didn't, I don't recall noticing it before that, but yeah, I don't know. Maybe,

maybe I, I, the last time I was changing the colors, I messed something up. I don't know. Maybe the last time I was changing the colors, I messed something up. I don't know. All right. Well. Oh, and you could do favorite colors. You could do random colors.

You can pick angular red or react blue or whatever. You can do lighten or darken. And if it's a light background, it will have black text. If it's a dark background, it will have light text. It's a really good user experience that was the reason that that made me switch to it was because i was mainly setting those colors but then like the text on like the say the toolbar right or the title bar you know i i would have to go and change that whereas peacock would automatically change those for you based on like whatever the background color was that you would pick.

It would change those text colors appropriately to make it more legible. And but like you said, I did go and create like custom favorites. So I could say like, hey, you know, here's like a, you know, a Facebook blue or something like that. You know, if you and then when you're in a particular project, you can say like, Hey, which project, which color do you want to use? And you can select from your favorites and you would see like Facebook blue. Right. So, uh, it's pretty cool, pretty cool plugin. All right. So, uh, this one was, uh, shown to me by a friend of ours.

And I thought like, okay, this is definitely – I even joked with him at the time. I'm like, oh, this is the tip of the week right here. Because this one is like outside of our normal things, but yet still like every one of us are engineers at heart. So we will appreciate this. But it's SketchUp.com, and you can, for free, you can create 3D models of your projects that you're working on or you want to build right and 3d models that are like accurate in terms of like uh uh you know to scale right so like if i'm gonna do some 3d printing or something like what would i use this for no no no okay great question so uh you know our friend bobby that showed me showed me this he was building a new deck in his backyard but but he was going to like have, you know, maybe some benches and some stairs over here. And like, here's going to be some planters

and, you know, things like that. Right. Uh, and you know, a water feature in a, he was able to like draw all that out to scale. Right. And it was like you know um but also the the software had like textures that you could apply to the different things to kind of like get a feel for it and then he was able to take that and then send it to like uh you know any anybody that he wanted to get a to bid on the project and just say like this is what i'm trying to build this is what i want to build uh you know to this scale to the to this look and you know just tell me and like you know you can see at the bottom there you know here's a legend and uh tell me what it would cost right but like how many times have you ever built something for

the house right and you know as you get into it you're like oh uh i mismeasured here or like this is too short or too long or whatever right oh? Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't even do it because of that. Oh, never? Okay. Yeah, I'm terrible at all that. I always find myself like measuring 50 times and then I'm like, dang it, I should have measured a 50 first. But at any rate, so I thought this was super cool. So now I'm like, okay okay i have definitely got to uh go spend some time learning this thing because this would be awesome for all my future projects because i've got some stuff that i want to do um around the house and and you know our our engineering nerdness knows no bounds let's be honest like. Like we're going to, we're going to geek out on everything that we do. That's well, that's just how we are engineered. Like if we're going to build a desk,

we're going to like draw it and spec it out. Maybe even like, you know, figure out some way to, you know, use some kind of augmented reality tool to be like, Hey, what's this going to actually look like inside of my office? Oh, that's what it looked. Okay. Yes. I definitely want that. You were going to build it anyways, but now you're like, Oh, I can see it. I definitely still want to do it.

Right. So I don't, I don't have that bone on my body. Oh, I wish I did. What? I'm agile. No,

I just, I just buy something. I'm tired of thinking about it. And then sometimes I regret it and sometimes I replace it. And I just don't think about it again. I do. I do enjoy. I've always enjoyed woodworking projects.

Yeah. There are a lot of other projects that I'm not as into, you know, like metalworks type projects. I'm like, eh, whatever. Not me. But, yeah. Unless it has a control Z, you know, undo, I just don't mess with it. Well, here you go.

With SketchUp, you could, I'm sure, you know, you could undo your stuff if you wanted. I think I knew somebody who used it for 3D printing because I've seen it before. I'm pretty sure that's what they were doing with it. I don't know about for 3D printing. Like, you know, Bobby showed me the project that he was doing, and I was like, wait, what did you use to draw this? And that's when he shows to me. I'm like, oh, man, my Saturday is going to be spent just trying to figure this thing out.

He said it does have a slight learning curve to it, but he's like, once you get the hang of it, you're in. So now, because I've got, like I said, I've got some projects I want to do around the house that I'm like, hmm, I wonder. Like even if I were to just do what he did and just draw it out and then be able to take it to somebody else and say, Hey, what do you think? Like, what would you charge to build this thing? You know?

So, yeah. All right. Well, with that, uh, you know, stay tuned for more information.

Well, actually, no, don't stay tuned for more information because, uh, this was the episode coming out right before the Coding Blocks game. Jam, jam, jam, jam, Jamuary. You can go play the games.

So, yeah. We'll have some YouTube videos of stuff of us playing winners or whatnot. Well, everybody's a winner. But you need to sign up and be a part of the game Jamuary. And, yeah, let's have fun. So with that, subscribe to us if you haven't already, maybe somebody, you know, handed the device to you or, you know, passed over a URL or something like that. So if you're not already subscribed, you can find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you like to find your podcasts. And as I said before, we would greatly appreciate it if you left us a review. You can go to Snoop Dogg's favorite URL,

whizzlewhizzlewhizzle.codingblocks.net slash review. And while you're at codingblocks.net, check out our show notes, our examples, our discussion, all the amazing stuff that's there. And send your feedback, questions, and rants to slash slack. And follow us on Twitter at Conebox or go to Conebox.net and find a bunch of links. Because after the game jam, we don't have anything planned. Maybe we'll come up with something. I don't know.

But that's a good way to stay tuned and find out.