Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 161: True Crime Talk: The Menendez Brothers with Killer Queens

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

[TW: Sexual Abuse and Assault] On this month's true crime bonus episode, Kail and Lindsie are joined by the hosts of the podcast Killer Queens, Tori and Tyrella. In 1989 the Menendez brothers shot and killed their parents, and it wasn't until 2 years later that they were arrested. Kail, Lindsie, and Killer Queens break down the murder, the motive, and the trial. Plus they discuss if they believe the Menendez brothers case should be looked at again. This episode was sponsored by: KiwiCo, Upstart, The Pill Club, & Embr Have a question you want answered? Want to give Kail and Lindsie a call? Leave them a message at ?(609)-316-0060?. Music by Nathaniel Wyvern. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License.

All right, everyone, we're back with another episode of coffee combos podcast, a bonus episode. First of all, before we get to talking about the bonus stuff, I have to tell you, I'm like in a very good mood today, I feel like I've been super productive. And it's only like not even 11 o'clock yet. That's amazing. That's always a great feeling. Aren't those always like the best days? Yes.

Yes. Yes. We're like, wow, like I really have done something today. I mean, it's not like I really done that much. Like I went to Target and Chick-fil-A and got a blowout and got my kid to school on time. But you know, it's the small things. It's the little wins. Right.

Definitely. I had one of those days yesterday and it was great. It was just, I got way more done than I even knew that I had to get done. Like, you know how like throughout the day, you just realize, okay, I need to get this, this and this done, or I could get this, this and this done. Well, I did all of those things and I was just so like, it just felt good. Like it was a good feeling. It's always a good feeling whenever you're like just feeling accomplished.

I can't describe, it's an indescribable feeling. So I'm not even going to try. But let me tell you, this morning, Jackson had his, what do they call it, like end of the year, like grade level testing or whatever, that started today. And I told him over the weekend, I was like, buddy, this is your last thing. Like it's the last Hurrah and then it's like a summer mode. You're going to have fun at school and blah, blah, blah. So I said, I'll take you to get you whatever you want for breakfast.

So you'll be like bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, ready for this test. And so of course he wants McDonald's. Well, I go to get the McDonald's line and there are two landscaping trucks in front of me. And I'm like, okay. So they're literally ordering food for the entire crew and like the lobby is not open so you can't even go in. So I'm, do you ever like feel like you're going to get nervous shits?

Like if you're going to be late for something and like there's nothing you can do to control the fact that you're like in a line somewhere and like you can't get out because he has to eat and you're like, shit, like he needs to eat, but also I need to get him to school. And I didn't know what time the tardy bell rang because we've never been tardy. So I've literally, I'm calling the school and I'm like, Hey, I'm in the McDonald's drive through and there's landscaping trucks in front of me. What time does the tardy bell ring a crazy person? And then I get the freaking bag and some crazy person didn't realize that they put a opened

freaking thing of syrup in the bag. And so it was filled all over the fucking place and I'm like, really? Like I've already showered in everything this morning and anyone knows that if you get like pancake syrup on you, it's not coming off and you smell like it for at least a day. So I mean, you could smell like worse things. So at least it wasn't like ketchup or like milk because if it was milk, you would have ill. And Jackson was like, Mom, why would they do something like that?

And I'm like, well, I mean, obviously they didn't freaking do it on purpose. Like no one like set us up. But yeah, of course I would get in line behind two landscaping trucks. And then last night, okay, back to the point that you were talking about how you like have a bunch of stuff that you need to do. But like sometimes if someone asks you what are the things that you're doing, you're like, I don't know. I'm just doing them.

Right. Right. I don't have time to like tell you what them is like, it's just things. It's just things. And so that was my thoughts going into today because I do have a lot of stuff that I have to get accomplished. And I'm just like, I don't even know to have a conversation about the things that I need to get done is honestly terrifying.

So I'm just like, can't. But then I got wrapped up in like finishing watching the Hulu doc on Menendez brothers. Which one, which one did you watch? Cause there's several on Hulu. The Eric tells all. Okay. I had a hard time with that one. Okay.

I also did. So I don't want to like get too deep into it before we get our guests on, but I now understand why you were so invested in this case. I honestly didn't realize how big it was, how intricate it was, I guess is maybe the right word. And honestly, I didn't know that there was any links to OJ Simpson. I had none of that information. So honestly, whenever I started watching it, it was all like breaking news to me, which

has kind of been fun because we haven't really covered anything that was like new to me. Right. Right. Like you kind of already were invested in cases when you were following them in real time. Yes. I feel like as I have been watching the stuff on the Menendez brothers, it's like made me interested in other cases that are similar to this because there are other cases that

were referenced on different forums that I saw like online when I was going down the rabbit holes of not like copycat cases or anything like that, but just cases that had similarities. And I mean, it's really, really strange to me how psychological aspects play into certain types of cases and how they can be very different cases, but have similar like the people can have like similar characteristics, I guess, or like the way that they move or like the same way. And it's just interesting.

That poses the question for nature versus nurture. I know. Have we ever had that question or had that conversation about nature versus nurture on coffee combos? I think we definitely touched on it before, but I definitely think like this particular case like is, is like, it definitely poses the question for this case specifically. I 1000% agree with that. And I don't know if you remember me saying that I felt like I wouldn't have like a hard

stance on this. And even though I remain there in a way, in a lot of ways, I do have a very hard stance when it comes to this case, which is surprising because I was not, I honestly wasn't expecting to be invested. Yeah. I mean, I just, I really wasn't. And truly the only thing that I had ever seen was just like these two brat kids killed their parents and like, that's right.

Right. Yeah. Well, and I think that's like where a lot of people stand on it. I really, if you haven't seen it already, it's the Hulu doc. It's called truth and lies because I did watch the Eric tells all one, but it was harder for me already knowing the case that was a little bit slow of a start. And I feel like people would not be as invested if they started with that one. But the truth and lies one on, on Hulu is really, really good.

The reason that I started with that one was because however I've watched others at this point, but the reason that I started there was because it was like in his own words and I feel like to cover it, it would have been, I wouldn't have been able to cover it without actually hearing that part, knowing that that information is out there. But it was a little bit of a hard of a watch for me only because I felt like they could have done better with like the audio and stuff. Like I don't know. The whole thing I feel like it, yeah, because they kept showing still images of just the

house. Yes. That was like weird. Like I felt like it was like the voiceover of him telling it, but it was just over like pictures. Yeah. And I feel like if you, if you aren't a person that's like super into true crime, I would automatically mark that off the list because I think there's just not enough.

You have to truly be. Keep your attention. Yeah. Like you have to truly be interested in the actual information that's being given versus needing like a visual something to watch, I guess, because there wasn't just a whole lot of watching. It was more, um, it's almost like they made something visual to pair with the audio to have a visual aspect, but the whole point was the audio.

Like it could have been a podcast. Correct. Kind of like, you know, us OPS, I did want to tell you that I got a ton of questions. People asking me if I had gone to get a COVID test and I did go and get a COVID test, um, came back negative, but I was very interested in what the nurse practitioner, nurse practitioner told me. She said the rapid test that are coming back negative that they're seeing a lot of negative rapid test, but positive, like the ones where you send it off or whatever, um, because the

rapid ones aren't testing for all the strains of COVID. It's only testing for like the most common. Well, that's what they say about strep throat too. Yeah. And then that was so weird too, because they were like, there's strep going around. There's a virus going around, but they didn't check like for strep or anything. Like they didn't even look at my throat. Oh, that's weird.

I mean, you definitely sound better. So I hope that you're feeling better. I feel a lot better. And also, um, PS, I'm going to save this story for the, um, weekly episode. Yeah. But Jackson and his little teammates, um, they lost their playoff game. And honestly, I've never seen something more sad. Oh, like it was gut wrenching, but I feel like we need to save that for the regular episode

because I don't know, I would love to know if like Lincoln has ever had an experience like that. Um, and actually like cried over something and it was just a weird feeling as a mom. Like I felt like I liked the fact that he was crying because it showed like an investment, but then also like hated the fact that he was crying because I hate for him to be disappointed. Right. Oh, that's all. Jackson was probably so upset and then I know how invested he is.

I know how good he is. And I know like it's, we'll talk about it on the next, on our regular episode. Let's. So I'm really excited though that we are partnering today with killer Queens to, um, dissect the Menendez brothers case. I think, um, it's a case that I don't believe that they've covered on their podcast. And if you are, um, true crime podcast listeners, cause I mean, I think that that's probably like a actual category of people that only listened to like true crime stuff.

Their show is called killer Queens and we are going to get them on and just have a little chat about this. So hold on. Yes. All right, guys, we're going to take a quick break to talk about one of our partners Kiwi Co. You guys know that we absolutely love Kiwi Co and so do our boys. And with summer just around the corner, why not gift your young innovators with super

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And then played an ancient tossing game and it was just so much fun and he enjoyed every minute of it and he really enjoys doing the projects with me. It's just something that we do one on one. And you know, the best part is watching their confidence grow as big as their smile. It's so amazing. So with Kiwi Co, there's something for every kid or kid at heart every month. You can get 30% off your first month plus free shipping on any crate line with code coffee at KiwiCo.com.

That's 30% off your first month at KiWICO.com promo code coffee. Okay, so we did do a little bit of an introduction and we were just telling our listeners that we were partnering with the host of Killer Queen's podcast. So if you guys want to introduce yourselves, our listeners would love to hear from you guys. Yes. So I am Torella and I'm Tori and we are sisters in the host of Killer Queen's which is a weekly true crime podcast.

We cover different cases and we bring in a lot of like 90s references. For sure. Yes. The nostalgia is strong with this one. And we try to, it's like a kind of a lighter take on true crime. We try to still be respectful of course because at the end of the day we're talking about her, but we try to have as much fun with it as delicately and as respectful as possible. So today we are jumping into the Menendez brothers murder and I actually, this case

took place in, what was it, 96? No, I think it was before this. 89. 89. 89. Okay. So I think they were sentenced in 96 maybe. Yeah.

They were convicted in 1996. So I actually didn't, I was born in 92. I had never heard of this case until recently because the case like went viral again on TikTok. So one of my friend's sons who's, he's 16 years old was like, oh, have you not heard of the Menendez brothers? And I was like, no, literally never, I've never heard of them. So I went down this crazy rabbit hole and was just so invested in this case.

And I kept telling Lindsay, I'm like, I need you to look this case up because you're not understanding the level of invested I am. And I think she was also equally surprised that she was as invested as she was. So I, well, Lindsay, were you familiar with it at all? No, I wasn't. Kale literally told me about it and like haggled me like, like old car salesman for what feels like months. And I was like, God, like I'm just going to finally watch it just to make Kale like

stop talking about it. And then I realized the thrill, like why she was so invested in it. She gotcha. Yeah. So, okay. So this start for our listeners, Lyle and Eric Menendez are brothers. They were born to Kitty and Jose Menendez who they kind of started in, I want to say Princeton, New Jersey is kind of like where they started or right.

That's what I wrote down. So I wrote so many notes on all of these things, but so Kitty and Jose met in college and Jose was an immigrant from Cuba and basically just worked his ass off. He worked really hard. He wanted to be a successful story. He had a lot of drive and talent and after he met Kitty and they got married, they moved to, they were in Princeton, but from the documentary on Hulu that I watched, it was Truth and Lies.

They were talking about how Princeton is kind of a city of old money and you don't really like flaunt it. It's just kind of like you're, you're kind of quiet about it. It's old money, whatever, but the Menendez family was not that way. And so it was a little bit different. They knew, everyone knew who the Menendez brothers were. They kind of had new money. It wasn't old money, et cetera.

So basically from there, they moved to, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, they moved to New York City in 1968 is what I wrote down. So if that's wrong, feel free to correct me. No, that's correct. Okay. All right. So I know that the family was very, very concerned about their image and kind of like wanted to control what the public, you know, how the, how the public viewed their relationship.

And so the parents actually spent a lot of time doing like their kids homework and controlled who they were allowed to be around girlfriends and things of that nature. And so they actually didn't get super good grades and their homework wasn't reflective of what they were doing in school. But I think they're whenever they, sorry, I'm just trying to write down all my notes. I watched so many documentaries. I know there's so many out there for sure. Well we were just saying before this too, like not to get off topic, but we were just

saying before, like Lindsay watched, she was more invested in one than I couldn't get into. And so I want to make sure that all the details are correct. So based on what I was reading and seeing, Lyle was not really a great student, but eventually his dad did offer donate $50,000 to Princeton and he got a scholarship to play tennis at Princeton. So I don't know if it was a scholarship or they just like accepted him. Yeah. And I heard that.

I mean, he was a very, very good tennis player, but I mean, the guys weren't the same level of successful, right? Yeah. And they also said that Jose didn't let them have close friends because they were just a distraction. Like he was literally like, it was like he was breeding championship, you know, like kids or whatever, so they couldn't have any distractions, no friends, no nothing, just work.

Man, what a great life, right? Lyle was still like a ladies man and they were, I know Kitty was kind of embarrassed that she felt like he was, you know, they essentially like raised a playboy and she wasn't happy about it. So I know that that played a factor in, into all of this. And then Lyle didn't really have, or it wasn't as known for him to have girlfriends. But the brothers did eventually get into crimes and burglary. And it was more for a thrill.

And they started kind of robbing their friends' parents. And it, from what I read, the Jose, their father was actually not really embarrassed that they were doing these crimes, but more embarrassed that they got caught doing the crime. So they did get arrested eventually and they did probation for the robberies. And then Jose went to each individual house and wrote them a check for whatever they felt like the value of the items that the brothers had stolen was worth. So see, and that, that whole thing kind of reminds me of, and I'm always like, what 90s

movie does this remind me of? So Clueless when Cher is like, I, my grades aren't ready yet. And he's like, why? And she's like, well, some teachers are trying to look by me, daddy. And she's like, I just have to talk to them. And he's like, well, why can't you argue, argue your way from a C to an A? Like I feel like that's what Jose was doing. He's like, I don't care what you did.

You need to be better at it. So no one knows. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yes. So that's, that's also the impression that I got. And this was all when they had moved to California. And I think they moved there in 1987.

So the Menendez brothers were 18 and 21 when it took place, the murders took place. So this must have been shortly before the murders. One thing that I found really interesting back to, I don't know who made the point a couple of minutes ago about the boys being isolated and not being allowed to really like have friends around and stuff was on the documentary that I was super invested in that Kail said that she couldn't get into, which was, what was it called? Which one was it? Eric tells all on Hulu.

Yes. Yes. Yes. So it did say in there that the families that come from extreme wealth like that, or I guess like self made, that they are often isolated and that the family doesn't really, or like the children don't really have a sense of what is considered normal. And so it kind of made me get the impression that they were like their own little cult innocence, like this like elitist group of people that just kind of like hung to themselves,

but didn't really know what normal was. And I mean, I don't, I don't want to say what normal is because I think it's relative to, to whomever, but I just felt that that was interesting. Well, yeah, I mean, one of, I think it was a reporter or maybe a child psychologist from that documentary or docu-series Eric tells all, she was like, once you break out of your nucleus, then you're like, Oh, this isn't normal. Like not everybody is like that. So I think that, yeah, definitely.

I will say all of the sources that I, you know, use for this, so that Jose was very, he was, he could be charismatic, like he could be nice, but most people didn't, they didn't like him and he wasn't like a very well liked person either. No, no. And one of the, one of his former coworkers or maybe subordinates, I don't know, he was like, when somebody asked him like, Oh, you didn't like, you didn't like Jose and he's like, no, he wasn't, he made himself not likable. Like it wasn't that I chose to not like him.

He was not likable. Yeah. He made no effort to be a likable person. Yeah. Right. Which is so interesting to me. Me too. It's not that it justifies the murders, but it's just interesting because, you know,

he was, he was good at what he did. He became an executive. He was producing things. He, you know, was getting jobs, you know, really good jobs left and right. So I guess it's interesting that nobody really liked to work for him or be around him. So. But during the trial kill in the documentary on Hulu that I was talking about, it said that they could not find anyone to say that Jose was a good guy and that he just like

wasn't likable. He was a harsh person. He was cruel. And this was out of 51 witnesses. And they were, I think it was also reported that it was shocking that people, how many people came to their, their funeral because it was mostly like people that worked for Jose, but didn't necessarily like him. So the only reason why I say all of that is because I am still conflicted and we'll get

to it, you know, in a little while about, about the motive of the murders. I say all that. So just keep that in mind. I'm still conflicted in how I feel about that. So just going back to the, you know, breaking down the case from, from the beginning. I don't even know where we left off now. So we talked about, they had moved to California in 1987, that's kind of where we left off. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. So they had moved to California. The brothers did get involved with some crimes that Jose essentially talked his way out of. They really got a slap on the wrist for it. It really wasn't much. I don't feel like, at least not in my opinion. And so moving forward, the boys and I, now I call my, I'm calling them the boys just

like everybody else. The brothers is in 1989. This is June of 1989. It's two months before the murders. Eric graduates high school and Lyle is in Princeton at this time and so they're not together all the time. Princeton is on the East coast for those of you who don't know. And Eric has a huge fight with his dad about college and his dad is telling him that he's

going to be at home most of the time or for some of the days out of the week. And Eric is upset because he doesn't understand why he would be home when he's able to stay in the dorm room and freshmen are supposed to stay in the dorm room. And so this was really upsetting to Eric and I believe that this is separate from the fight that they have later in August when Lyle comes home to visit and Lyle and his mom are fighting. Here is where Lyle's mom rips a toupee off of Lyle's head. And this is kind of like the turning point in everything. A lot of the family secrets are coming out because of the arguing and the tension between

all the family members. Lyle's gone. He's flunking out of Princeton. Eric's supposed to be leaving for college and he sees the whole thing go down. He didn't know that his brother wore toupee and this is kind of where the breakdown of the alleged family secret of sexual molestation and things of that nature. So Eric breaks down and tells Lyle that his dad has been molesting him. So trigger warning.

This is kind of where this case takes a huge turn. And they both believe that the mom knew and did nothing about it. So this is when Eric is 18 and like I said, Lyle's 21. So I don't know if you guys also knew about all of this. I don't know how invested you guys are, but this was a big turning point for the family. This was something that then Lyle went back and said, well, he knows about it because his dad also did it to him as a child. And there were two witnesses that came forward in one of the documentaries basically saying

that Lyle had told them about it. It was, I believe, two different cousins that Lyle had admitted to. I want to say when he was eight and 10, that he was being molested as a child and nobody really did anything about it. And it was kind of like hush, hush. Is that kind of what you guys, okay. Definitely. Yeah.

I mean, so many witnesses that they did call in the first trial that corroborated the stories of abuse or that they, you know, that it was well known in the family that like when Jose would go to give the boys a shower and they're in their teens at this point, that you didn't go near the bathroom. You never opened the door no matter what you heard. You didn't even go on the floor. Yeah. You didn't even go on the same floor.

And there were a lot of people that said that and Eric was even writing letters to his cousin Andy. I think his name was Andy. I mean, they had letters from even 1987, 88, where he was saying it's still happening. It's worse. I don't know what I'm supposed to do about it. Yeah. I don't know what I can do.

I can't take any more of this. I'm always afraid he's going to come into my room and I don't know how to keep him out and all that stuff. And one of the female cousin who stayed at the house, excuse me, she was in a room with two double beds and Eric comes into her room one night and is like, hey, I want to sleep with you. And he tells her that his dad has been touching him inappropriately and he wants to be away from it.

Well, she gets upset. She goes and tells Kitty, who by the way, this is neither here nor there. I love that her name is Kitty. I'm obsessed with that. But she goes and tells Kitty and Kitty's like snatches Eric up and puts him back in bed and is like, we're not talking about this anymore. We're not dealing with this. Like it's, it's a lie.

Just ignore it. Mm hmm. So I, I actually didn't know all that. That's something that I didn't, I didn't even know. This is the, this is the first time hearing of that because I was actually conflicted, you know, watching what I've watched and, you know, reading the things that I've read. I did not know that there was letters from years prior. I didn't know that.

And I, I knew that they were, they were saying, what is the motive for killing Kitty? Because, you know, they could understand that if there was sexual abuse that they could, there's a motive for the, for the father, but I didn't, they couldn't explain the Kitty situation. And that was one of their theories was that, you know, she knew and didn't do anything about it. But I didn't know about the proof, like backing that up. Well, right.

There, every, I swear it doesn't, it depends on what you watch, but everything is so polarized. Like there's one that's 100% against the Menendez brothers and one that's completely supportive of the Menendez. Their defense. So it's like, depending on what you watch, you get completely different sides of the story. So, right. Do you dread looking at your credit card statement every month?

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You must use the link to make a donation. Okay, so that makes sense now. I definitely have like my feelings. I definitely was saying that to Lindsay before we got you guys on this that it's, there's a lot of nature versus nurture on this case, like it poses the question strongly for this case specifically because I, there was no nurture. There was absolutely, and I, I don't think that it was, this was a nature thing. I think this was a nurture situation.

Absolutely. Yeah, there was somebody in one of the documentaries that said Jose and Kitty basically created two bombs that blew up and killed them. Yeah. Yes. I mean. And there was at one point when all of, all of these family secrets and things are coming to a head and, and, and really I feel like it kind of started at Eric's graduate, I

mean, all of the things were going on, but when the boys started to stick up for themselves at 18 and 21, I mean, Eric wants to get away from the family and be in the dorm and things like that was like, it brought everything to a head because those family secrets could be exposed. Those family secrets could come out and, you know, he didn't, Jose didn't want to be known as a child molester or anything like that. So there was one point where in all of these, these arguments, Kitty is have, it was said that she had told Lyle that he, he ruined the family.

Like she essentially just, I don't know if that had to do with like maybe the affairs because later on it comes out that Jose actually had an eight year long, I believe, affair with someone in New York. He was also having another affair with someone in LA and Kitty kind of stayed through all of that. And then I would assume took it out on, on the brothers because, you know, they, things were going on behind the scenes there too. So it was almost like she was left on the back burner, maybe to that point, to that

point and Eric tells all, it was talking about how Kitty was like very aloof and it opened up the man that was talking about this. He had opened up a cabinet and there was a bunch of medicine there. And basically it had gone into this whole story about how she had tried to overdose to commit suicide and that she was severely depressed. There was suicide letters that Eric had actually found that she had written multiple times. And then another person on that documentary came forward and said that Kitty actually never wanted children and had a stance that they only serve to drive a wedge between you

and your spouse. So yeah, and she, she totally viewed them as taking away her chance at success because she had, you know, been doing modeling and maybe some acting before that. And then when Lyle came along, she stayed home with the kids and she felt like that made her less desirable to Jose, that's why they were burgers to her. They were burdens. Yeah. And I feel like, I mean, gosh.

The whole thing, like, I feel like the men and the brothers, they wanted, what I believe is Eric was like, okay, if I can just get through to graduation, then I'll be good. But then once he gets to graduation and Jose is like, absolutely not, you're not going anywhere, you're staying here, then it's like, well, what do I do now? You know, like, so, but I also think it's so sad to me because the problems that the family is having, everybody's got a part to play, but the parents are so responsible for so many of these problems, yet they're saying to the, I'm going to, I struggle with calling them the boys, they're like, we'll look what you guys did to us, see what you're

doing to the family. So it's like all this pressure and blame. Yeah. I remember in part of that interview was something along the lines of like, Jose was basically telling her she didn't get to go continue her career, do her modeling and you have to stay home with the kids. And so the resentment from there, you know, was for her, probably it never, it never went away.

You know what I mean? Like it never, she never got through that. So the fight, going back to the arguments, there's the fight June of 18 of 1989. And this is two months before the murder, before when Eric graduates high school and they're fighting about college, then there's another fight Tuesday, August 15. This is five days before the murder where Lyle's fighting with the mom, he gets the hair ripped off. Eric didn't know this.

He breaks down and says that his dad's been doing what he's been doing. And they, they both come to the conclusion that, you know, their mother knew. And he claims that when, so when Eric is telling his side of the story and Eric tells all, I believe it was, he truly believes at this point that with all of these secrets coming out and his father going to be known as a child molester, that his parents would kill him, would kill both of them. And so that's kind of where, you know, they, that was their, their defense, that they're in fear that they would, his father would essentially rather be known as a murderer

and killing his kids than to be known as a child molester. So August 18th, they go out and they buy guns, they buy it from a sporting goods store. And it, they admit that they had never shot guns prior to this, but they, they are doing this for self-defense. And I think in one of the things that I was watching, it was saying, they actually told, you know, whoever helped them at the sporting goods store that this was, they wanted a smaller gun for self-defense. But instead the, the employee gives them a shotgun, they get the guns, they, they bought

them for self-defense and they get them. I was curious about that because I thought that you had to be one, well, I guess they were 18 and 21. So they were of age, but like, do you not need a license or like permission or anything like that to own a gun? You can just get one. No, I've, yeah, I think at that time the laws were super, super lax, but well, and there's an argument to be made, Tennessee, they've just passed a law beginning in July where

you don't have to have a permit to have a gun, no matter what, like you don't have to have a carry permit. You can have one no matter what you do. So yeah, I think now they'll do a background check, but then I don't think they did anything. You could just walk in and yeah. So, um, between the time that they had the fight with Tupay and, um, and the murder, which was five days later, they go fishing, which this is, there's still a lot of tension. The family is still fighting, they're not really talking and Eric said, Eric, one of

them, Eric or Lyle says that they really believe that they were going to go shark fishing. And I do air quotes. I know you guys can't see me, but, um, you know, they, they really believe that they're going shark fishing in the middle of the ocean so that they could kill their kids, um, Eric and Lyle. Um, and you know, they're, they're scared, they're paranoid. They think their dad's going to kill them. Their mom is upset because when they get there on this fishing boat, um, there's more people

than the mother expected, more people than kitty expected and, um, both of the boys were called not actually doing any fishing and the, the, the brothers stayed on like the bow or is it the bow or the bow of the boat and, um, up on the deck and the parents go like under the deck and don't ever come out and nobody really does any real fishing. Um, and the captain of the boat spoke and said that the boys actually got soaking wet on, um, going through like over a week in the, in the ocean and they never went downstairs, um, under the deck to go get a towel to dry off because they, they didn't want to be around, um, their parents and they were afraid and the captain said that, you know, he's never

experienced any, any other family like this and the dynamic was very, very strange. Um, and so he, he really, they believe that their dad is going to kill them on this boat. They're going to push them over the ocean, over into the ocean. I don't really know. Um, but it doesn't happen. So I also, when he was telling the story, thought that maybe that was true only because Kitty was so upset that other people were on. Yeah.

Well, and they had no interest. Like the captain even said at one point he did catch something and he's like, Hey guys, like, do you want to come over here and see this? And they were like, no, like nobody ever moved. They didn't have any interest in what they paid for. And they were out there for like six hours. Yeah. I mean, it's like, obviously the fishing trip is a charade, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And she, and Kitty did make a big damn deal about there being other people and why was it not just the captain? Yeah.

Yeah. It's definitely strange. So I, I believe what I watched kill, what I watched said that Eric actually had the gun on the boat. Oh. Did you watch that? I don't remember. I mean, I also didn't know.

I didn't, I didn't know about like the letters and stuff of kitties, um, suicide and things like that. So I, or, um, the letters that Eric, was it Eric or Lyle, whoever they wrote to their cousins like later on, I didn't know about any of that. So you could be right. I, I'm, I'm not sure. Yeah. So, um, and Eric tells all it said that he actually had had a gun on the boat.

So I don't know if maybe they had some foresight going into this that, you know, like people who get paranoid, they start thinking things that might seem irrational, but might be rational to them at the time. And maybe he thought, Oh, they're going to do something crazy to us, like super paranoid. And maybe he took the gun on the boat for self-defense. I'm not sure. So we know that he had, they had the guns, um, and then I wrote down that Jose was pounding on the door and Eric thought that he could possibly kill his dad that night.

And then it didn't happen. And I think that was later that night after the shark, after the boat fishing. Um, so the next day, it looks like, um, August 20th, um, you know, Eric says that the tension is building within the family and he's not sleeping well. He's not thinking clearly, um, and he, he leaves the house and he goes to church. Um, and this is somewhere that he typically goes for peace. Um, and Jose made the kids, he's mad that the kids come home late. So in that documentary, um, Eric says that Lyle, sorry, Lyle says that Eric went to the

church and to do that whole thing during the day by himself, but it almost feels like in the documentary that it was edited as if both the boys were gone. So I'm not really sure if both boys went and Eric comes back late or they're both, I don't actually know. That wasn't really clear to me. Um, and this is where Kitty had said that Lyle ruined the family. Um, so August 20th at 10 PM, I believe it was the, the brothers get the guns and shoot their dad.

And they do that by coming down the stairs and going into the family room. And their mother tries to escape and runs and she actually slips on blood and she had her shoes on. And I think that it said that there was blood like in the tread of her shoes and she slips and she's making sounds and Eric is not able to shoot her, his mother. So Lyle comes over, they reload the gun and shoot his mother. Um, I don't know if they went and got the movie ticket for their alibi before or after they called the police.

Do you guys know what? I believe it was before bought the movie ticket at, uh, before they called the police cause they, they kill their parents and they figure police are going to come because it's Beverly Hills. People heard the shots. Like they're going to be here any minute. They don't show up and then now we're going to lie. Okay.

Well, now, right. They make a decision that they are going to lie and essentially try to get away with it. And because it's in Beverly Hills, I think they said that there isn't at the time average of two murders per year. So it just doesn't happen. And several neighbor neighbors came forward saying that they did hear gunshots, but they, it was Beverly Hills. So they didn't really think much of it.

Um, and they, they get away with saying that they came home from the movie and, and someone shot their parents. So initially they think that, um, you know, it could be a mafia hit. It could be somebody that Jose Menendez is associated with because he did have, you know, all kinds of connections and ties. And so I believe that Jose, was it Jose or Kitty? One of them was shot at the kneecaps. Yes.

I looked that up cause I saw that almost looked like, right. Kneecapping was what happened. So it's like you shoot somebody in the kneecaps and yeah, that's a classic mafia move. Yeah. Apparently. All right. You guys, we're going to take a quick break to talk about one of our partners, Ember Wave. I know that we've talked about them many of times before, but we absolutely love Ember

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So with that all being said, the investigators and the people who were first on the scene did not check the boys' cars. They didn't check for a lot of evidence and really do like a thorough from start to finish investigation. So even though it could have been suspected that and it probably was more than they said in a lot of the documentaries, the brothers could have done it. They actually kind of get away with it for a little while and the brothers inherit, I believe $400,000 worth of insurance money, I think within five weeks of the murders.

But a neighbor later comes forward and says that literally the next day, Eric jumps in her car while she's on the street and says that she needs her husband's legal help and he has no emotion, no, he's not upset, just like very, just like casually jumps in her car and is like, I need your husband's legal help. And so that was noted to be obviously really weird. And I just, I don't know if they didn't think of it right off the bat, but my first thought was like, if you're shooting someone multiple times, that's like a crime of passion or there's some type of anger or you know, this person, I think it was said that Kitty had 10, was

it 10 gunshot wounds and they had shot Jose so many times that he was nearly decapitated. So I mean, that's, there's rage in that. Right. I don't, I don't think a mafia hit, because you don't need to shoot that many times. Right. Like if it was a mafia hit, you're not going to, you're not going to do overkill. You're going to do what you have to do and get out is essentially the vibe that I got from that.

So the boys, they get their insurance money and the first thing they do is buy a Porsche and Rolexes and they don't really know supposedly what to do. Eric bought a Jeep as well. So I think Lyle got the Porsche, Eric bought a Jeep and then there were three Rolexes. Yeah. Which doesn't look great. Right. It doesn't, it doesn't look great at all.

And I think that was where I kind of came to the conclusion initially, at least I've gone back and forth that I was like, there was no way that any, there was any other motive besides money. And that was until I watched the trials and then now you guys are telling me about these letters and, and things that are corroborating this, they're, they're, you know, the things that they, they spoke about on in trial. So Jose was shot nine times, Kitty was shot 10 times from what I wrote down. And so Eric eventually actually confesses to his friend when they're playing chess.

And the friend is on the documentary and says that he goes over to play chess and he, you know, made the great mistake of saying like, yeah, I want to know what happened that night. And Eric confesses. So, but that's not the only confession. They, I believe it was Eric also confesses to his psychiatrist, Dr. Ozeal. And Dr. Ozeal tells his, he decides that after he gets the confession, he's going to now record, you know, later confessions between the brothers so that he has the tapes. Well, he tells his mistress at the time about these tapes in case anything were to happen

to him, where these tapes are and where she could find them and to hand them over. Dr. Ozeal and his mistress no longer work out and the mistress goes to police with the tapes. They get a warrant and they're able to use the tapes. The one thing that they did say that the boys, in my opinion, I think they could have gotten away with it had they not confessed to all these people, but the one mistake that they made is they never told their psychiatrist at any point about the sexual abuse that went on during their childhoods.

And so that was one thing that was a strike against them kind of in their defense was there was no, aside from like the proof that comes out that you guys are speaking of, there was no, you know, they confessed to killing their parents to their psychiatrist, but never talked about the sexual abuse. So I thought that was an interesting point. So I agree with the documentary when it said being abused is an explanation, not an excuse, but where it immediately got weird to me when they scrambled to go to the movie theater to get movie tickets for Rambo to have an alibi and then they get rid of the guns and

then the lavish spending. To me, that just doesn't seem like a natural progression of someone who regardless if they had been molested all the way up until that point, those actions after the fact, and maybe they were just trying to do those things to cover up like as if life didn't change for them or something, or they weren't trying to hide something like you can never really get into someone's head, but I can't imagine my parents being killed or killing my parents and then going out and buying a Porsche and Rolex like that to me just screams guilty. Well we actually, we discussed it a little bit earlier today before we are recording

and I can completely understand where you're coming from. I mean, it 100% does not look good. I will not deny that all the way around, but there is something to be said if you, I mean, to just argue the other side of it, retail therapy is real and Eric discussed that Lyle and Kitty, their kind of love language was buying things for that boost of serotonin. So it makes you happy in the moment. And so he kind of explained it that way like, well, I mean, of course it didn't look good, but also you have to take into account they're 18 and 21 at the time.

And for them, maybe it was just something to make you feel better even though you're grieving. It's just differently. I don't know. I'm not saying it looks good because it doesn't. And to the point of the therapist not being told about the abuse, I just wonder because of the amount of control that Jose had over that family, you have to wonder if he's in that therapist's ear being like, I want to know everything that these boys say because

who knows? I mean, he could have paid this therapist off and been like, I want to know everything. So maybe they didn't feel comfortable explaining because they didn't pay for their therapist themselves. Right. Jose did. Yeah. And also they, the whole setting up the alibi after and everything, again, totally doesn't

look good, but we have seen that in other cases where people are like, well, I don't know that I'll be believed and they ended up not being believed that there was a reason for this that, you know, about all of the abuse and everything, I mean, people referred to it as the abuse excuse. So I think there's, you know, there's, there is a possibility of even if that was the, you know, quote, explanation for why they did it, that then they realize after they did it, oh shit, now we've done this thing and we're probably going to go to jail. And what if nobody believes our story, I mean, reality sets in after a point, right?

Cause it's like, if it's a, if it's a crime of passion or like a, you know, um, where you just lose complete control of what's happening, you commit this brutal crime. And then after the dust settles, you're like, oh shit, what have I done here? I definitely, I agree to, with all of those points and, and, and to those points, um, the thought of, you know, in the conversation that they could have premeditated this, um, I don't now, now I kind of feel like they definitely thought it was a possibility that they were going to need it, but they also didn't have rage for no reason. And again, if it was like for insurance money or something like that, or for the $14 million

estate, like they don't have to overkill. There was, there was emotion and rage and things going on that built up to, for this to happen. And again, not an excuse. It's not okay. But, um, and, and not having an alibi, I mean, the, but then, but then I go back to, I haven't even touched on, um, and this is what's weird to me is the, because it's, I'm, I am conflicted. I'm even going back and forth in this podcast right now is like, um, you know, they said

that Eric was a good looking guy. He was really natural in front of the camera. And at some point he did take photos with like a professional photographer and he said, you know, I don't, I don't think that Eric had would it take to be like a working model, but like he was definitely comfortable in front of the cameras. And he wrote a screenplay, um, basically talking about him and his, not him and his brother, but talking about brothers killing their parents for insurance money. And then literally five weeks before the murder changed the story that essentially fit the

exact same crime that him and Lyle created or that him and him and Lyle, um, eventually like played out, carried out, right? Carried out. Yeah. Um, and so, and so that was weird to me. So it's like part of me is like in some, in so many ways I can't see how this would be pre premeditated, but in so many ways, you know, the, the ducks were all kind of lined up.

Um, and so I think, you know, it, there's just, there's so much. I, I definitely was conflicted about, you know, the, the, um, the sexual abuse. And I question whether that was real because, um, at first I was like, well, why is this coming out of nowhere? Nobody corroborated this. Nobody talked about it. I know Kitty's brother got on and was saying, there was absolutely no way this ever happened. And there's definitely no way she knew about it.

Um, and essentially, you know, the boys were out of control and nobody can control them. But, um, the stories, the, the, the memories that the boys had about it. Um, and the fact that Lyle was a, you know, sexually abused as a child. And then, and then went and did it to his own brother. Um, I actually read that that's statistically when that happens to you, it is very, very likely that you will do it to somebody else. So, um, that was interesting. And I don't think that they could have made up some of the things that they said, like

I don't think it was like, Oh, you know, I was sexually abused and had nothing further to add to that. I mean, these were in depth, real detailed stories and both of the boys were extremely emotional and distraught about even telling these stories. So I definitely don't think that they were made up. Um, I just don't know if to Lindsay's point, you know, it's an explanation, but it's not an excuse. Right.

And it said that Eric, um, Eric said, and Eric tells all that when he was first molested, it was by Lyle and that he would take him in the woods and stick things in him. And Lyle admitted that he was molested by Jose with a toothbrush and Vaseline and he would take those things and do them to Eric. And so to your point, Kale, statistically, yes, um, it, people, um, who have been molested as children, statistically, that is true that they will do that to someone else. I'm not saying all people who have been molested do that to someone else, but statistically that has been proven to be true.

Yeah. So kids model behavior, like they, what they see their parents do or, you know, things that are normal in their family, they will do it too. So, you know, kids even copy things that we say or, you know, they, they do all kinds of stuff and that's just another thing that they will, they'll copy. And I mean, from ages six to 16, being molested by your dad and then being told that it was a special secret to never tell anyone, um, oral started at age seven and sex by age nine or 10 years old.

Those are, um, hugely impactful developmental years for children. And I just can't even imagine and I believe them. Yes. Yeah. And the, um, the brain is not fully developed until age 25. And the last thing to develop is the prefrontal cortex. And that's where, um, you, that's the part of the brain that will think through like consequences of things that you do or it helps to inhibit your impulse control.

It makes you think logically and rationally rather than just with emotion in children who grow up in unstable homes have issues with the development of that. It does not develop the same way it does in kids that don't have unstable homes. So you know, that's another thing to think about with, you know, with their age, they wouldn't have been fully developed, you know, young kids do stupid stuff all the time. And like, that's why car rental companies make you wait till you're 25 to rent a car because they know that if you're under 25, you're going to do something stupid and get a wreck.

So well, and the, the brothers have been in fight or flight mode their entire lives. Yeah. Actually, it said that since eight, um, that Jose would tell Eric that he would kill him and would give graphic description on how he would do it. So then part of me goes back to, if that's something that Jose told him to keep this secret, um, who's to say that it wasn't maybe developed in their mind at that age, that that was a normal thought to have to kill someone that was doing, you know what I mean? Like maybe he just like reverse rolled it.

Right. Well, so I think that go ahead. Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Um, it just reminds me of that like that saying that everybody says it's like a secret can be kept as long as one person, the other person is dead, right? So it's like, nobody's going to know if two people aren't there to tell their versions of the truth.

So I feel like that's what they grew up. If that's true, that's what they grew up knowing is, okay, well, one, somebody's got to go. It's either him or us. Well, and to that point, what I was about to say was, um, I completely missed, um, you know, one of the things that was mentioned was that they had dogs and they had a ferret and they believe Jose believes that one of the dogs ate the ferret, um, and later on they found the dog's head in the refrigerator. And so again, to your point was, um, you know, what does that teach them as kids?

They're seeing, Oh, well, if somebody does something wrong, you can kill them. It doesn't matter. They stick their head in the freezer and or the free, the refrigerator and lesson learned when in reality there's so many things wrong with that. Um, and so, but these are the things that the boys are seeing and, and to them, if their dad, you know, is doing it, you know, that's an example, they, and it's, it's crazy because I recently learned about, um, trauma bonding, um, and I believe that what Eric described with his dad was that he, um, you know, he thought his dad was literally everything that

success was. He thought he was brilliant. He thought he was, you know, all of these good things, but he also was traumatized and, and terrorized by him. And so I feel like that's like trauma, like a form of trauma bonding. Absolutely. Well, and I think that that's, that's kind of unfortunately that's, um, the root of child abuse is this is our special secret, this is keeping us together and they, the

child thinks that they have a part in it as well. So it's like, that's the trauma that's bonding them together. Right. I mean, it's like, you know, you're just as guilty as me in this and this is what we're doing together. I don't know. It's, it's messed up and it's awful, but that's kind of the way that it goes. So in 1993, it was not a question of who killed Jose and Kitty Menendez.

It was a question of why, um, and, you know, the argument was, was it premeditated? And I think they, they, they were, the jury was hung. Like they never, they didn't get, I guess they didn't get, um, you know, a, a conviction. It had to be a unanimous verdict and they couldn't, yeah, they couldn't come to an unanimous. So they go back for a second trial and that's in 1996, um, like I stated in the beginning and, um, they were convicted, they were guilty and, um, one of the points that someone made was that essentially they failed to prove their fear of their lives. Um, and that's really what it boiled down to.

Um, and to my point earlier, um, it was said that they didn't tell the psychiatrist about the sexual abuse that had happened, but I know that the cousin comes on the stand and says that Lyle tells, you know, him at 10 years old, that the sexual abuse was going on and asked if all kids, you know, go through that. And I, I don't think that you could argue at this point that the sexual abuse didn't happen. I don't think that's a fair argument. I think it's, um, it's clear that it happened and the, one of the guys, I forget what his

name was, um, he, he came on the documentary and this was the first real case that he had covered for. I want to say it was ABC, um, and he was saying that it was, it was really sad to see the brothers become laughing stocks of, of all of this because they essentially use the sexual abuse as like the butt of the jokes. They were on Saturday night live. They were, you know, talking about all of that. And, um, you know, that was really sad.

And one of the quotes that I wrote down, because I feel like this is true for so many things was that television removes the intimacy of pain. So, um, instead of really the whole situation is sad, right? Like the parents being killed is sad, and then these kids essentially losing their, their own lives to jail because of the trauma that they endured their entire life. And this is how essentially they, they blew up. It was like a ticking time bomb. Like the whole thing is sad.

And then they get to be made fun of for this. Like this is, this is horrible. The whole thing is horrible. It's horrible. And it, the media was overly biased, I believe. And the fact of comedians making mockeries of it, I mean, they played it on Eric tells all, you know, like clips and it literally was disgusting. But back to the point of, um, the hung jury and then how they had the second trial.

I guess that's what it's called. Did you see the part where it was talking about how OJ Simpson had met Eric and Eric had advised OJ, um, his attorney Leslie knew Johnny Cochran. And that's how OJ got in contact with Johnny Cochran. And then the DA's office, after losing, um, OJ, like OJ's acquittal, they were determined to have a victory. And so the DA's office needed a win and they felt like a failure, huge embarrassment because of OJ's acquittal and they were not going to let the Menendez brothers walk.

So they had a true motive for, yeah, for the guilty verdict. Well, yeah, and they, um, the judge was the same judge in both trials. And in the second trial, he ruled that none of the sex abuse stuff could come in. So in the first trial, they have 51 witnesses talking about it. And in the second trial, there's zero. And you have to look at that and say that it's very suspicious because like you said, the DA needs a win. Like they're a basketball team looking for a championship ring or whatever, and they're

going to make an example out of the next person. And we're supposed to be fighting for justice in the truth, not just winning because this is like a sports team thing. It's insane. Well, yeah, and it's so frustrating. Like watching it, I was, because I was passionate and I feel like we all have, are at this point, right? So I'm watching Eric tells all and I'm watching this, this play out and I'm like, no, I'm

so mad because when they, when the judge was like, yeah, we're not going to enter that, you can't use that. They stripped the defense of an entire defense. So the only person that can bring in motive at all is prosecution. And of course it's, that's biased. So now everybody's like, well, I mean, if that's, if that's the only motive, it's fact, right? So obviously it's just they, they didn't win fairly.

There was no chance for the defense. No, I, I, I don't want to like the Menendez brothers because there's no excuse for killing your parents. However, I don't know that, you know, any of this was, I don't, I don't know how I feel about the verdict. I do know that they were separated in prison. They did not get to go to the same prison and they hadn't seen each other as of the documentary in 2017.

They had not seen each other for 26 years and they, all of their appeals so far have been denied. They've never been able to, to get, you know, an appeals process going through. And they did talk about, you know, the possibility of having children and getting married. I know Eric was married one or two times, Lyle for sure was married twice. And he actually, Lyle says that his childhood prepared him for the chaos of prison. And I thought that was interesting and that, you know, now he spends his time trying to find a purpose in, in being in prison and, you know, being there is not, you know, any

different from his childhood really, which is absolutely heartbreaking. Well, and I think that speaks to the, you know, like you said, you, you can, you can not just kill people, you know, it's not okay. There is no excuse, but the fact that they've both been sentenced to life without the possibility of parole and they have gone on to better themselves to try to help other people to find a purpose in prison, I feel like speaks to them being good candidates for parole and they've spent over 30 years in jail. Like, well, and I think that whatever crime you commit, no matter what the explanation

is, there's some atonement or atoning that needs to happen. And I think that they have, I mean, we've talked about the parallels between this case and the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case. And I feel like it's exactly, not exactly the same, but there are a ton of parallels because it's like when you have an animal and you abuse and abuse and abuse it and you back it into a corner, they're going to defend themselves. If you, if you believe the sexual abuse defense, which I do, I do think that there needs to be some repercussions because you can't like Terrell said, you can't just go around killing

people. That's not okay. Right. But I do think that, you know, enough is enough, maybe at this point. Yeah. And they were so young when it happened, you know, I mean, I think that that wasn't really taken into account. I know that, you know, in the United States, 18 is technically you being an adult, but

I can guarantee when my kids turn 18, they're going to be stupid as hell. And they're still going to need me to, you know, help them and talk them through decisions. You know, that's just like, that's how, you know, 18 year olds think they're invincible. They think they know everything they think, you know, and they're everything is fueled by emotion, not logic and all the things. So yeah, they made an absolutely horrific decision when they were younger. But I, I don't think that they're still those same people. I definitely don't think that they're the same people.

It, I was a little bit, um, at first, like I said, I've gone back and forth with how I felt about it during the Barbara Walters interview with, um, the brothers, the, the part of me that had me conflicted in the beginning was, you know, I felt like they very nonchalantly explained themselves, um, and, you know, I was apprehensive about, about that and, um, Eric had like a smirk and I wrote, I specifically wrote that down, um, in telling a story. He's like, we're just a bunch, we're just two regular kids and, and Barbara Walters was like, you're two regular kids that killed your parents. Um, but I don't think that their brains were fully developed to understand and to truly

grasp like where, what that actually meant, what the consequences of that would be. Um, and that's to your point of, you know, they weren't, they were children. They were 18 and 21, but they were children. Mm hmm. Yeah. Barbara did a great job of holding their feet to the fire. Yeah. For sure.

Yeah. It actually said that mother and father killed by their children is statistically very rare. So I think also statistics to an extent played into this, um, as well as the media kill, as we've talked about many other, um, cases that the media definitely played a huge role in this. Um, I don't think, again, it, it wasn't a question of who did it. It was why it was done. And I think that by neglecting to bring in the sexual abuse, it, it was unfair, even

though they were very guilty and should have to pay for what they did. And I think that it was just very unfair that that wasn't taken into consideration. I think, um, we'll definitely be touching on this case again at some point. I'm curious to see if at any point any of the appeals go through, but, um, thank you all for listening and being just as invested as I am in this case. I think I'm still going to be going down rabbit holes and thank you, Lindsay, for finally, um, you know, going, reading into this case with me. Um, thank you guys for listening to this bonus episode.

Kill. I literally got a callus on one of my hands from writing so many notes on this because it was just like so much. And there was so much information that I was just like, okay, I can't miss this or like not write this down because I feel like it's so important. And then it's like 12 pages of notes deep and it's like, wow, there was a lot of important things. So I'm very thankful that you, um, turned me on to this case and I'm really excited

to just see other people's perspectives on this. And I hope you guys, um, loved our conversation as much as we loved having it. And just want to thank killer queens for coming on and sharing this episode with us. If you guys have not followed us on out coffee, combos podcast on Instagram, make sure you follow us over there. And if you have not subscribed to us, you can do that by searching the purple podcast app type coffee, combos, click subscribe, click the fifth star, leave us a written review. You can also find us on Spotify or any other podcast app.

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