Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 177: Disassociating, Trauma Bonding, and Therapy Goals with Kati Morton

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

This week Kail and Lindsie are joined by therapist, author, and YouTuber Kati Morton. As a licensed therapist Kati is able to give some key insight into the mental health topics Kail and Lindsie have been discussing lately. Over the past few weeks Kail has been speaking about her bad memory and how her therapist believes she might be dissociating. Kati explains why this might be happening. Kail and Lindsie both have experience with trauma bonding, and want to learn more about it from Kati. She gives an indepth look at the causes of trauma bonding and the effects it can have on a person. And therapy can be enhanced when their are goal in place. Kati explains the importance of both having therapy goals and regularly talking about them with your therapist. Kail and Lindsie discuss their own experiences with therapy and Kati gives them advice on how they could get even more out of it. This episode was sponsored by: Jeff Lewis Has Issues, The Pill Club, & Upward Music by Nathaniel Wyvern. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License. 

Alright, everyone, we're here. We're ready. We're recording. Yay. Welcome to coffee combos podcast. It's been so long since we've talked to you and Lindsay it's been so long since I've seen your face so I'm happy we could do it. I know. How is it? Good. Katie, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. We, my husband, I just got a puppy like three days ago. That's awesome. She's adorable, but oh my God, I already I don't even have children and I like have mom stress where like wake up in the middle of the night. I'm like, is she whining? Is she okay? I wonder if she has to go pee. Yeah. Oh, I always say that dogs are way harder than kids because kids you can keep in a diaper right and like they don't make messes and stuff, but I totally feel you on the mom anxiety with the middle of the night stuff for sure. Yeah, I'm like, haven't been resting well for like three nights. I will be okay. We'll get there. Wait, I have a question about that actually because I was talking to one of my friends on the phone the other night and I've heard something called, is it called like phantom something when you hear your kids like cry out for you but they're like really not. Oh, I mean, it could be part of anxiety. People do have like you hear, I mean, we've all had that where you think something's in the house even like let's take it there if you like live alone.

And we've all done that. I'm pretty sure we're when I moved in my own apartment, I swear every noise like I heard and was like, oh my God, you know what I mean. Yeah, well in the shower. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Sorry, someone's at the door. Okay. Sorry, I thought someone knocked at the door and I was like, we weren't see phantom phantom parenting or whatever. No, I like I've been in the shower washing my hair or like singing or whatever and I'm like my baby is definitely crying and I'm like hold on a second. Let me and then there's yeah like am I really hearing. Yeah, my brain making it up because you know the sound so well. Yeah, you like could imagine that that's happening. Totally.

That happened last night the other other night and I was trying to do some laundry and I was just, you know, like in my own little world, and I kept hearing, hey mom. Hey mom. Oh, weird. And I was like what it like, it's gotta be Jackson obviously I'm only mom to one person and so I go upstairs and he is dead asleep. And I was like that's gotta be, I've heard a lot of women having it after like postpartum. Oh, hearing like phantom cries or whatever. Okay. It wasn't anything so I don't know what it from maybe like severe PTSD right now.

The headlines are coming. The headlines are coming Lindsay. Yeah, adjustment periods can cause a lot of things especially for already predisposed to maybe more anxiety or depression. I would like my hypothesis would be that that was probably anxiety driven in you where, you know, you're so used to hearing that and also like there's a lot going on lots of changes things. And yeah, so you thought he was trying to get your attention but he was dead asleep. That's scary though too it's like, then you're freaked out because you're like, am I going, am I going crazy? What's going on here? No, I literally needed to fix myself like I came downstairs and got myself a glass of juice and I was like okay wait a minute like I feel like I'm a crazy person like I know I heard that. Yeah, yeah exactly.

That's what I mean. But like I didn't hear that. I know. I mean we all have stuff like that though where you just swore you heard something. Yeah. And you know and I think it's, I think we like make it into something bigger in our brain. Yeah. When, how many times do you think, oh did I hear a knock at the door and you go and nobody's there like must not have and we've like move on, but when it comes to thinking that our child cries we like turn it into this big deal when I think it's, you know, it's just you being in your own world.

Lots going on and you're like, did I hear him? I think I did, you know, and then you're not going crazy. It's very normal. Don't worry. Yeah, literally. I feel like, well put them as a model going crazy every day. So it's fine. Yeah. Everybody needing something from you. Literally.

And that's been like the last several days. This past week I had my kids back. They went to their dads for a little while. All of them. And the, the, the clinginess Lux had for me being back. I was just like, I, I love you and I missed you, but like I also need my personal space. So you get it. Yeah.

It was just one of those and even one of the kids coaches was like, Lux, like he's, he noticed like he saw like how clingy it was, how clingy he was. And he's like, Lux, you've got to give your mom something. So needing things 24 seven, but okay. So really quickly, I wanted to start about your book before we even get any, any, any good parts of these, this interview, but you have a book, right? And I, you sent it to me and I got a copy of it. And I was super excited to that you even emailed me about it. So if you want to just say anything about that, I would, we would love to hear about it. Yeah. My new book, I just got the real, like the full copy.

Yeah. Yeah. Like when your book baby shows up and you're like, oh my God. She's as cute as I thought she was. She is. So, so yeah, my book is called traumatized and it's essentially all about trauma. What is it? How do we diagnose it? How, what are the symptoms of it? A lot of people don't even know, like what's dissociation, which is kind of when, if you guys don't know, it's when our brain gets so overwhelmed with what's happening in our environment around us.

It pulls the ripcord, it like pulls us out of self or environment so that we can legitimately move forward. Okay, so can I stop you right there because that's actually something that Lindsay and I talked about last week. I'm having a really hard time, like having my thoughts. I will start a thought and I never finish it. I don't know where I was going with it. I have no idea like what's what. And so I had went to my therapist and I told her, I was like, I'm pretty sure I have dementia. And I know people are like, no, it's not dementia.

She seems to think it's disassociating and I've only ever seen or heard about it like on Tik Tok and stuff, but like I never really thought it applied to me. My therapist kind of described it as like the same way you would disassociate with trauma. It could be the same for stress because it's hard for the brain to differentiate the difference between trauma and just like stress. And not that I didn't believe her, but I guess I still don't really understand what disassociating is. So if you could just like elaborate and yeah, elaborate. Of course, there's a whole chapter in my book about it too, but I'd like to think of dissociation as a spectrum. And the reason that I do is because we all have gotten had like a really, really long day and not remembered how we got home, right? You get in your car and you're like, kind of the oh shit moment where you're like, did I just, wow, okay, you know, and that can be kind of scary, but it's also something that is very common, right?

Because I'm tired, maybe I'm stressed. And there's just so much going on that it's like, this is autopilot. We like to think of it as just being autopilot. Well, I like to think of that as a very low level of dissociation because they estimate that over 50% of people had at least one episode of it. So we're not alone. And I think the other people just haven't told them that they've had them yet, or they don't know what it is. So I'd argue that everybody's had an episode. And it can go all the way to the other extreme, which is what's called dissociative identity disorder or DID, which is what we used to call multiple personality disorder.

Now, I just want to talk about it as a spectrum because that more intensive response is really born out of like severe trauma where we don't feel safe with ourselves necessarily. So we break ourselves into pieces. So there's like the hurt part of us. And then on the other end, there's like this really, really protective part, right, that comes in and like fights for us and stuff. And so we can break those into actual different personalities who don't really know about each other, which I know sounds weird, but I'm just here to tell you it's very common. And there are things you could do to make it better. But when it comes to kind of in the middle, kind of what you're experiencing Kale is that when we're stressed out or traumatized or something in our environment is just overwhelming like even Lindsay going through the big adjustments you've been going through. That could be cause for it as well. It doesn't have to be, you know, one big boom event. It's just this build up of stress and changes, and our brain gets so overwhelmed it doesn't have the capacity to process it. And it pulls us out. Wow, like this rip cord pulls us out and it can feel like either we're super spaced out. And we almost don't know what we're like watching ourselves make decisions and do things. We can feel like I'm not really participating or another version is when we're removed from environments almost like we're watching our life as a movie.

And we call that diagnostically speaking. It's like depersonalization, derealization disorder or what people call online dp dr. And so, I don't know, does that make sense. I'm happy to answer questions about it in more detail but that's kind of how I view it is like a spectrum. I've definitely seen tiktoks and videos of people who have DID. And I knew about, you know, they used to call it multiple personality disorder. Acceptable term anymore. I mean, I haven't heard anybody in my community tell me that's offensive or anything. I think it's honestly just a thing that the APA or the American Psychological Association did. They made the change more like, okay, you know. Okay, yeah, I think what I'm experiencing. If you listen to last week's episode Lindsay can vouch for me on this I like started a sentence and then completely had no idea what I where I was going with that or what I said and then it happened within five minutes it happened twice.

So I literally feel like I'm going crazy because I'm aware that it's happening, but I don't feel like I'm going through anything traumatic it's more just like a lot of stress I would say. And that stress is just as hard on our system. I know we like to think of like trauma or these big events as being like that gives us reason for like that it validates what's happening, but stress is is a big. It's a big stress or a big difficulty on our nervous system. So I wouldn't be surprised if stress isn't doing that to you, you know, and causing you to forget where you're at it's very common memory loss is kind of part of dissociation where we kind of have like bits and pieces but we aren't sure what's happening or where we were at you know it can be really hard to recall. Lindsay, have you experienced anything like that since you've been going through so much. Yes, not as much about the what you're saying I do have had experience with like not being able to string thoughts together or not like be saying something and then not know where I was going with it like how you experienced last week but I guess the one time in particular that I can think of was like in 2019 when all the stuff going on with my family it was going on and I woke up and like literally a month had passed and I didn't even realize. Wow. But I had done like every day as if it was like normal I had gotten up and gone about my days, but then I woke up one day, and it was like already a new month.

And that's very common. You like lose sense of time you lose time I mean I've had viewers tell me they've lost like you childhood where they just don't remember anything. But I think as adults, especially like in stressful situations right now I'd call that a trauma to be honest personally. But when we sustain a trauma, we can lose huge swaths of time and if we really tried to force ourselves to recall we might be able to pick out like bits, but we, it's like, it just disappeared. And if someone asked me about something during that period of time. Honestly, I would say I don't know and that be an honest answer, you know, like I legitimately don't know and then one other time Kale and I talked on the podcast about how I don't remember my parents ever being together and they divorce I think I was like six or seven years old. I don't know the names that he can remember things but I never remember my parents being together so I don't know if that is a form of disassociation as well. It could be, I mean, also just know that like most kids don't form long term memory till the age of five. And some people like, if I really think about it I can think back to, and I only because I asked my mom I know I was about four. I remember this dress with tulips on it that I loved because it was like a twirl dress. And I remember always wanting to wear it and my mom, like, it needs to be cleaned, obviously as an adult I'm like, probably pretty gross Katie, but like one to wear every day. And I remember that like vividly, but that's it. Like I have no other, you know, around that time I think probably I remember going to kindergarten would be like the next memory so it probably a was traumatic, which might be why you're like, I don't know, but also be your

and it takes some time for those long term memories to form. Okay. You may know Jeff Lewis from the hip Bravo series flipping out or his serious XM radio show Jeff Lewis live and now Jeff is bringing you a brand new podcast we think you'll love and it's called Jeff Lewis has issues. I absolutely love the name very catchy. I want to listen to it just for that, whether it's drama with family and friends to parenting or relationships. There's no denying Jeff Lewis has issues. Jeff is joined each week by friends, experts and celebs from Tamara judge to Jackie Shamal to judge Lauren Lake Patty Stanger and others as they take a no holes bar deep dive into every detail of Jeff's life come for the laughs and leave feeling so much better about your own life. You can check out Jeff Lewis has issues on any podcast app you can subscribe now on Stitcher Pandora Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcast definitely give it a listen. Kale and I had also talked about is it worth. The therapy that we were talking about like trying to make ourselves remember is it EM EMDR where you're remembering and you're digging into your past to figure things out and Lindsay and I kind of both agreed that we don't want anything to do with that if we don't remember it we don't want to remember it. And that's fine and EMDR is actually stands for eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, which is really just a lot of words to mean that we're forcing our brain to do bilateral stimulation you know when we sleep and REM sleep our eyes go like all crazy.

And then back and forth is our brain processing the day is what they believe that's a hypothesis that it's like working through what happened, putting them into stories and like filing it away like have you seen inside out. Yeah, I love that. I love it. And it's so it's actually really accurate. I love that they're marbles too because it's like that during our REM sleep it's like forming the marble, and then it rolls it away before we wake up. And that's why I'm not remembering things because I don't sleep. So, my body cannot make the marble and store it away. There's no marble here. You've got a disaster in there literally all sorts of marbles partially created. So sleep is very important and is part of memory retention. There's a whole chapter in my book about about memory and trauma memories in particular. And I do I will say it's perfectly fine to say I don't want to remember those things like why would I want to dig that up just so I can feel worse like no things. However, I will tell you that a lot of people will experience symptoms of PTSD and be like I don't know where this is coming from and I don't even know what this is. And that's because even though we haven't dug into pull out that repressed memory our brain knows it happened. And it's like, it's telling us it's like time to process it. And so we can have like body memories and flashbacks and things associated with it I'm not saying everybody will not saying either of you will, but just for anybody out there who's like I don't remember anything because I have these horrible symptoms and I want them to get better. You can process through trauma without having full memory.

Okay. Yeah, I don't I don't want to. I don't want to dig in. I don't. I have so much going on in my present life right now that I would rather like dig into that then to like dig deep into old, you know, older things. I have a I have a good friend and I she was on the podcast last year but she wants to dig into all that stuff she wants to know so that she can I guess you know, not react the same way or you know like you said the symptoms you didn't want this the symptoms to be there and I get that too I totally get that but for me I just need to focus on the here and now in in life. And that's fair because if you have enough going on now it's like I don't need to add more on my plate I'm already I'm all full here thanks. I don't know Lindsay feels the same. Yeah, I feel like the plates are overflowing and to add something to try to like make something better that I don't even know about just seems like not to move. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and told her own pace. Okay, so you talk about disassociating you talk about sleep and memory retention in your book. What other things do people have to look forward to read in your book.

I talk a lot about the different types of therapy like EMDR somatic experiencing is one that's really popular really helpful it's like if we have memories in our body. Like if we can feel something like we all can imagine like you can feel like you're back somewhere and you can feel it like in your skin that can help like, it helps us move through it, and that movement helps process the trauma. And so I talk all about the different types of treatment there's more than that there's tons that are still being researched I talk about things that don't involve therapy at all, because there's things like Vegas nerve stimulation that can actually help and the ganglion block which is really just a way to numb out they find people with trauma have this nerve that's overgrown, almost like roots of a tree, and it expands kind of into your upper chest. And if they block that nerve, which they've been doing for years for people who have swallowing difficulties and other nerve pain in their face. They find their PTSD symptoms go away. There's lots of fascinating research happening. Yeah. So if you don't want to dig in if you're not ready to talk about it or talking is just not helping because that's, I learned that in my research to that talk therapy doesn't work for everybody. And so, there are a lot of other things out there so I talk about that. I talk about, you know, improving relationships how do we have a relationship with someone PTSD and how do we as someone with, you know trauma, tell somebody about it and get support. Yeah, there's a there's a ton. Honestly, there was so much in this book I actually had to cut out like whole chapters of things like religious trauma I didn't get to dig into trauma bonding I touched on but didn't get to do the full chapter I wanted to because it would have been this book could

have just been every part two part three part four that's when you knew your whole book series. Definitely wanted to talk about trauma bonding so we did touch on it a couple weeks ago and I know that our listeners were dying to know more about trauma bonding because some people think that they don't know for sure they're not entirely sure what it is some in my experience some of the explanations and I guess definitions of trauma bonding are a little confusing themselves and so it's hard to really understand if what we're going through is trauma bonding or not so can we definitely elaborate on that 100% because this isn't doesn't just happen just for anybody out there listening it doesn't just happen when we're like children I know a lot of people think oh but you know they bonded to that person because that's the first time they thought they thought that's what love was or they thought that's what a parent always did and it does occur in those situations but it can also occur let's say in like narcissistic relationships where we're in this abusive in this abusive cycle and what trauma bonding really is is because of the trauma and that's the important thing to remember is because of what the trauma is to us could be physical sexual emotional abuse, any kind of thing, we feel that it's safer for us to bond to a person to have a relationship with them. And that it can be for a lot of a lot of different reasons part of its safety part of it's like, that's what we expect love to look like, or because of the gaslighting or manipulation we believe that they didn't mean to or we believe that they truly love us or we believe you know there can be a lot of. I think people don't talk enough about narcissism and manipulation and gaslighting what that can do to us, but we bond with that person so much so that we, it's people won't report the abuse will do whatever they want I've even had children who survived child sexual abuse, be still be in love with their abuser and wish that they didn't go to prison or wish that they didn't get in trouble or you know.

And it's almost like another form of kind of what we talk about all the time is like Stockholm syndrome, where you bond with your attacker because essentially it's your only way to survive. I experienced something like that I'm also writing a book. And that's literally what I compared it to with Stockholm syndrome, because people are like how do you go back to this person and you have multiple children with him and you, I can't describe it there's no way to describe the cycle right like unless you've gone through it enough but again, I like question I'm second guessing is it trauma bonding is that what it is and then also I see on tiktok and I'm sure if you guys are on tiktok to you see all these videos about narcissists and relationship with a narcissist, but then on the other hand, I talked to professionals who are like the, the chances of them actually being a narcissist are slim to none so what is it are there more narcissists than anyone is willing to admit, or is it really slim to none and it's just trauma and it's trauma I shouldn't say is just trauma bonding is it trauma bonding and it's just two unhealthy people or one unhealthy person. Is it is it an actual narcissist I don't know. I mean, I think narcissism is very common. I agree. Only because we know, I mean through. So there's a couple of parts and I understand like the side that you're like professionals are taking on this is because I think it's like 6.2% of the population they have narcissism. But here's the kicker. Narcissists don't usually get help. Right. They don't think anything's wrong with them. Right. Everything's wrong with everybody else. So how would we get a census on what percentage of people are narcissists.

We wouldn't. Right. Right. And so I think whether or not people meet full criteria remains to be seen because again they're not seeing professionals are not getting help. It's all your fault. Not my fault. But the amount of people I know that are in relationships with others who seem to, from my perspective on the outside here in one side seem to have some narcissistic tendencies. You know, I really believe that that I don't know how much people know about narcissism but the, the love bombing that happens with narcissists that people don't know what that is when when you remove yourself from a narcissist relationship or when you just enter into a relationship, they, they love bomb you like you can't see out of the amount of attention affection, like all the compliments and it could be gifts that they're just like throwing everything at the wall to get you to move quickly into a relationship with them make big decisions. They'll try to use that love bombing as a way to isolate you from other friends being like I love you so much that person's a jerk they're not being as good to you as I am to you and, and so all in that kind of haze of I that's why I like the term love bomb it's like you almost can't see a big smoke bomb, then you find yourself alone and isolated with this person, and that gives them full reign to manipulate to gaslight, and to get you to do what you want. And then when you try to pull out they love bomb again, or they blame you and then the guilt, the guilt that you can feel, you know, so is this, this is all part of the cycle of trauma bonding, or no, or it's two separate things. It's the same. I think the abuse that we can sustain in an artistic relationship could cause us to bond to trauma bond. Okay, and Lindsay you've experienced this or no.

Yes, I have experienced this. I have experienced from the side of knowing that someone has done wrong to me, or treated me unfairly, emotionally, physically. And then me feel bad, if there would be repercussions for that person's actions, and constantly feeling like well, even though I know that I'm not wrong. I should still forgive them because, you know, for whatever reason like I don't, there's not really an explanation as to why but I just come up with one. So we know we're, the craziest part is that we, we know we're not wrong, we're not crazy. This is really happening, but then we feel guilty, and then we want to help them but, okay, because I really thought I was crazy and like, you know, Lindsay knows like the trolls come for me on a regular basis about things like this and it's like, I'm not going to explain trauma bonding to you guys. Now I can say go listen to the episode with Katie more in because I'm sick of people saying like oh but you knew oh but that and it's, and I think I've also experienced it with my mom until I finally cut her off. Which might be why you're in another relationship like that. Yikes.

Because it's comfortable. Okay, I mean I cut her off. Alright guys, we're going to take a quick break to talk about one of our partners, the Pill Club. I know we have talked about them before, and I know that we are all looking for ways to streamline our to-do list, whether it's delivery for dinner or ordering our favorite products online, why should it be getting birth control be any different. With the Pill Club, they make it easy to get your birth control without scheduling a trip to the doctor's office or going to the pharmacy in person. They provide access to care from the comfort of your own home and delivery to your door and discrete packaging. The Pill Club is a birth control subscription prescribed by a medical professional and delivered straight to your door for free. The Pill Club carries over 120 FDA approved brands. Most brands of birth control are free with insurance or Medicaid. Otherwise, prices start as low as $9 per month without insurance, and the Pill Club again delivers birth control to your door for free in discrete packaging. What's more, their licensed medical team is just a text away to give you the best reproductive healthcare. So, skip the office visit and waiting in line at the pharmacy and join the club. Right now, you can go to thepillclub.com. The Pill Club is offering a $10 donation to bedsider.org for every coffee convo's listener who becomes a patient. Your donation will help low income individuals get access to birth control through bedsider.org. That's thepillclub.com slash convo's to get your first birth control care package and donate to help more women in need of affordable birth control. Remember thepillclub.com slash convo's, you must use the link to make a donation.

It took me 20-something years to do so, but it's interesting because if my mom was not sober or something, it's weird, and I don't know if it's trauma bonding for that relationship either, but she knew she was wrong. I don't know that it was necessarily a narcissistic thing. She knew she was wrong, so she would love bomb by buying me things and doing things that I wanted, but then she had guilt for it, so I think it was a little bit different. But then I felt bad for accepting those things because I knew that she was doing it long story short. Yes, I have now found myself in multiple relationships. I think that's why I have four kids by three men because I find myself attracted to similar relationships, like dynamics. But yeah, I think Lindsay and I have talked about the trauma bonding with parents as well, so I just wanted to bring that up. No, and that's important too, because the thing that I think can help if anybody's out there and you're like trying, I don't know, you're like shit talking yourself, essentially. Being like, I'm so stupid, I knew better, but knowing better and doing better are hugely different. Also, we have to think, especially you're both parents, you have to think of children. You are a child, I have my patients bring in pictures of them when like the abuse started or when they realized that their parent was an alcoholic, which just side note Kail, a lot of professionals would say all addicts are narcissists, only because of the fact that they, everything revolves around their addiction which revolves around them. You know what I mean, and they'll do anything sometimes to get those needs met.

And I don't know if I fully agree with that 100%, but I just want to throw it out there because there's a lot of articles and a lot of research and a lot of opinions behind that that say that that's the truth. But sometimes it helps to see, yeah, going back to like bringing a photo of yourself at the age, you know, when those things were happening or even just thinking of your own child at that age, it can sometimes help us offer ourselves a little bit more understanding and compassion, because we can be so hard on ourselves, especially with like the guilt, because if there isn't our parents around the guilt and the shame, like shame if anybody doesn't know the difference between like embarrassment or shame, shame is when you think something's like inherently wrong like I talk about this is a whole chapter in my book about what like why does this keep happening to me, like why do I keep finding troubles in these situations, I keep getting retraumatized. First question on this list was, why does it keep happening. Okay. Do you want me to dig into that? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Please. Yeah, so when when we've been traumatized in any way, and I'd argue that like the reason the reason I even came to be was because I believe that we've all been traumatized I feel like it's way more common than people believe. And when we've been traumatized, especially if it's happening when we're young and we're trying to figure out who we are I mean think of us as like, like eight year olds 10 year olds I mean I remember like being so embarrassed my mom gave me like a generic brand of crackers and my lunch I want to be cool I want to have the brand name, like you're so you just want to fit in right we just want people to like us we don't know who we are we don't want to figure that out. If something happens to us at that time in our life. We never get to form a true sense of self like a true confidence and like I can make decisions right because someone kind of took that from us right something happened to us and we don't feel like we have that or because of the trauma we can become a super people pleaser, because I thought if I did everything right then you know mom or dad wouldn't drink or wouldn't hit me or wouldn't, you know, abuse me

emotionally. And so out of that either way, we can find ourselves not only comfortable with relationships like that. So we find one of my patients said this at a, I went for one of her open AA meetings, and it was just such a powerful statement she said, she's talking because it was her one year of sobriety. And she said, I can go into a room and pick out the one man that is emotionally unavailable just like my father she goes takes me about 30 minutes, I can pick him out. She was an I'm drawn to him, he seems so interesting, like he needs fixed. And it was such a powerful statement because we can we can pick out those people, because it's comfortable. And so the comfort is what causes it to happen again, the inability to trust yourself we can find ourselves asking for a lot of input from outside people, because we don't know how to make decisions ourselves because, you know, we can think oh since I was a kid, I've never done the right thing, I've always kept happening so like should ask somebody else. And so those two things combined I really believe cause it to happen again there's nothing wrong with you, you don't have a sign on your back that's like please abuse me please traumatize and you know please be an asshole, we don't have that sign. It's more about learning to be uncomfortable, checking in with our therapist about what the relationship should look like. And I think we talked about this last time kill and I met you and Beverly Hills for that session I was like, we were, we talked about how you should be bored. Yeah, I think I sabotage the last one actually the, the guy that I talked to you about at that time, definitely sabotage that one and I was very bored. I know. But yeah no both of those things that you just named is me but it's crazy because I'm aware that I do that you know what I mean like I'm aware of the first thing that you said was comfort, even though it's like simultaneously uncomfortable, but I keep going back to it

because it's familiar. And then the second thing that you said what was the second thing you said that I is that it's like we go look for outside input we don't trust ourselves. Get on my own nerves when I do that. Because then I'm upset. When I don't go what you know the popular opinion is now I'm upset because they're going to be upset that I didn't listen to them. So I know that I do that I mean I when you said that I instantly thought of my wedding when I got married to my ex husband and I took ever I wanted to know everyone's thought thoughts like all the bridesmaids thoughts on everything that I was doing even though I wouldn't even necessarily go with what they wanted. And then I was upset because then you know they were like why do you even ask us if you're not going to go with what we're telling you kind of thing. And I so I get on my own nerves when I do that and I but I still don't know how to stop. But now I'm trying to ask people that are hard right like a good voice of reason like Lindsay will give me like a really good answer. So I'm trying to go less people more solid opinions. I don't even care about I think that's a good place to start. Lindsay's like I don't give a shit what anyone says. I don't care like I'm not asking somebody about bridesmaids dresses. This is just going to be what it is. Yeah I don't know but I've always been like that I think.

But I'm also a people pleaser. You are a people pleaser Lindsay everybody's different. Like I mostly I would say it probably started with being a people pleaser to my parents like not as much my peers but making my parents happy. Like you don't want to ever disappoint. Yeah. Like I would have done anything to make my parents happy. It's really not been until I had Jackson really until I was what you would say like I would be willing to defy my parents you know or go against their wish or whatever because I felt like at that point I'm grown I should do what makes me happy. Mm hmm. I wish I was like that. Yeah.

I actually wish I was like people pleasing is hard. Yeah it's it's a hard. I like trust me I've been in therapy off and on since I was 15 and I can't I need to get into see someone personally also. So don't think I'm just perfect and like having my shit together because mm hmm. But I think behavioral change is hard. I remember even I like a string of really unhealthy relationships my therapist was like, well let's think about what they all have in common spoilers it was me. I kept saying them out, and they all have these similar attributes. I was like, so maybe next time, you know, let's do some opposite action, because she knows I do what's called dialectical behavior therapy my practice and one of the, the key tools is opposite action so when, when I want to rush into a relationship right because that was my pattern. Move quick.

Don't think get into it. Figure it out later. And she's like, you then you end up not actually liking them, and then you, you end up being too invested, you know, she's like, and you don't look stupid and they're all these like cycles of things I was doing. She's like, how about instead we go slow. And then you tell me how uncomfortable it is because I know it's going to be uncomfortable. And then we think next steps, you know, and it was really hard, like, you know, it behavioral changes and easy that's, that's why that's why we go to therapy. We need some of that support, you know, because if we know one relationship didn't work out and we can see clearly why. How do we not do that again, you know, we have to be more aware. And the one thing I do talk about this in the book too is like the one way to ensure that our relationships are healthy moving forward is to let them develop slowly.

These are friendships to not just romantic relationships but I mean, how many people, I'm sure you guys have had this to where they like befriend you for a reason. You don't know right away. Yeah. And so it's better if you just go slow, let people tell you who they are and believe in when they tell you they'll show you who they are, you know, so Lindsay and I are a little bit different on this because Lindsay will point out someone who is just doesn't have good intentions and completely nip that in the, is it but or bud, nip that in the bud. I always say bud, I don't know, that's a good question. So she'll like, she'll just like nip it, I'll just say nip it. I will ignore the red flag and think that I can change their intentions with me every single time. And it most recently came to light one of my friends over like 15 years. I just knew there was very many things off, because I knew him and then for a couple years he kind of fell off, and then boom, all of a sudden where he's back in my life and we're best friends when I hit TV. And again, I ignored it because I'm like, no, because he comes and visits and like all of these things right but like Lindsay, when she knows she knows and she just cuts it off I why am I a lot like why do I think that I can change even friends. You get what I'm saying, not even just like romantic relationships. I think a lot of us do, it's very common to like I used to do that to kale, you're not alone. I think if I acted in a certain thing that I could make do what I wanted or to change their intentions.

Yeah, because they would realize how good of a friend I am or something and literally that. So does that go back to the same like it's comfortable. It's what I know because like, if I'm on my best behavior my mom won't drink or smoke or do whatever if Lindsay's best behavior she'll appease her parents and she'll make sure that, you know, she doesn't disappoint or whatever. So is it kind of like that for friendships as well. Okay, interesting. Okay, 100%. So one of the questions I have on here too is how do you become an expert on the subject of trauma what studies do you need to take because I feel like between Tik Tok University and like my sessions with you. I feel like I'm an expert. I think a lot of people are experts because you're experts to your experience. Like I think that's played down too much like I as a mental health professional never wanted people to think that I know more than they do about their experience. I can tell you the research right and I obviously have a license and I have my master's degree that I paid a lot for finally paid it off Hallelujah. Congratulations.

Thank you. Um, but yeah, you know, like, that's just in treatment, like that's where I live I live in understanding from learning from my patients. Okay, and then where my expertise comes in is really an okay how do we take that and make it better like how do we make behavioral change and in catering it to you, you know, therapy should always be super collaborative because I can't tell you, oh go home and journal about this if you're like I hate to write doesn't work for me, you know, then I'm going to have to change the tools I give you so I feel like you are an expert you're an expert in how trauma has affected you about how, you know, maybe toxic relationships have harmed you and why you trauma bond and why you people please or you know there's all these things right that you're an expert in and then you know as a mental health professional I'm an expert in hearing you learning with you and then use that information to move you towards the goals of not doing you know XYZ behavior like not having another relationship like that and having something healthy like how do I not sabotage that would be what I would dig into because I think that's probably what's happening. Okay. I also struggle in therapy I'm I've been in therapy since October of two one eight twenty twenty nineteen I think so going on two years and I don't feel. I still feel like I'm getting to know my my therapist is still getting to know me and I haven't really been able to dig in completely to each individual issue because I always have something and I feel like I can't work on one something new comes up every week.

Yes. Like I just feel like I'm not really. Yes therapy is working but also I can't dig into like one topic and I'm sure Lindsay for you it's probably very similar is like there's always something new and I have like it takes me the full hour to get whatever should I have going on. And we can't even dig into what we said last week you know what I'm saying and it just becomes. It's like those plates that are spinning they juggle the plates and then like in my head like everything's just falling just food falling all over the place like that's my life. I think you probably need more time more therapy like I already do double sessions. But that's okay like I'm gonna be honest for a while I went when my dad first died I was going twice a week. I did nothing wrong with doubling up for especially during times of stress. Okay, like, I didn't go, you know, for so many hours. I forget how many I don't know if I ever did more than one double session, but I might have.

I don't know. It was a shit show. I was having a hard time right that's why I was going with therapy. So also don't really remember all of it, because dissociation so, you know, so easy. So going to therapy for double sessions, or even three times a week I've had patients back in the day when I was in my office like full time. I was there three full days a week and I've had patients that would come three days a week for a little while it's not a long term thing forever. But if you feel like, because I even I talked about that my first book are you okay about like what level of treatment do you need if you feel like an hour is not enough and you're barely like getting through just what happened that week, then we need more we need another chunk of time. And you'll get to a point where you'll feel like you have enough time to talk it out, and then get some help some resources. And that's that sweet spot so everybody's going to be different and there's no judgment around how many times a week or what you need, because you're going through a lot, like if a lot's happening, get more help. You definitely need to do that and I feel because sometimes I even feel like it's working but then something will happen and I'm taking multiple steps forward in the right direction right and then something happens and I like go back to old behaviors and then I'm beating myself up over that because I feel like what I've been in therapy for almost two years. What the hell am I doing wrong but it's like okay I'm not going to change overnight it's you know years of work, two years in to undo 28 years of bad habits and bad reactions because of how my formative years went but yeah, which is something that I feel like Lindsay and I have talked about more lately, because we're both going through a bunch of stuff so.

Yeah, how go ahead for my situation, trying to unpack a 12 year relationship in therapy. I think that's really hard because you're listening to someone who hasn't been through that 12 years from you give you direction on your life and sometimes I question like okay is this person giving me the right direction, or is this the direction that I want to go. I don't really know the full 12 years of like what happened and then is it really in a situation like divorce or getting out of a long term relationship. Is it really fair for them to give you direction because you're not hearing the other person side to a whole picture, does that make sense. Yeah that totally makes sense that's a good question. And the truth about it. So there's a couple of things. There's a sense a little resistance in you for therapists we're like, I don't know if I can trust you which I assume it kind of follows you into your life that should be a pad. As a therapist we're pattern seekers, so I look for patterns, I'd be like oh is she really suspicious of a lot of people where's that coming from. I want to dig into that just throwing that because like my little spidey senses we're like, Okay, you know she's only there to help. I remember with therapists is we only are there to help. And something I would ask and this might help you Lindsay to like know where it's going is to say hey can I talk to you about my goals for therapy again, if even if you've already, I want to talk about them again because I just want to make

sure we're working towards that, because that's really she doesn't have to know your ex husband's perspective, because she's here to help you. So it's actually all about you and the goals that you have. And then checking in something I do with my patients maybe it's because I'm like a list maker and like an organized freak person but every few, maybe three or four months, I'll check in with them about where I think we're going and I'll read some of my notes from like three or four months ago and be like I feel like we're working towards that do you feel you know, and so I think it's kind of that more collaborative effort so that you are constantly reminded that. Yes, this is the goal that I have. Yes, I do feel like I'm working towards that. If you feel like she misunderstands things there's nothing wrong with just calling her out saying that that's not what I meant, you know, because again like as a therapist is this fine line between like letting you educate me and pushing you along without making too many assumptions. Right, like I don't want to assume I know how you feel or assume that this is what's the best thing for you. But taking what you've said, I want to, you know, I want to use that and pick out some tools and techniques and some challenges for you to try to move. Does that make sense. Yes. Yes, I wrote that down. I don't think I've ever gone over I love my therapist so much but I don't think I ever went over like goals for therapy. I thought everybody does that. I, you know, I think it's really helpful. I, I couldn't, I couldn't personally be in therapy or be a therapist without goals, because otherwise like, how do we celebrate wins, and how do we know, like it keeps us motivated. And then also how do we know that we're on the same page, because like to Lindsay's point, I would hate to work with like you Lindsay for like a year thinking oh the goal was just to help you grieve the loss of your marriage and you're like no the goal is for me to reclaim myself confidence or whatever right.

We could be light years apart and I want to make sure that I'm not wasting your time and money and effort towards something that's not a goal for you. Okay. Thank you for that. Thanks Lindsay. I just learned something that I didn't have on my list. If you're single and you haven't met your person yet, don't get down. Get Upward. Upward is the free app where Christian singles can connect and make a meaningful faith based relationship. Look Upward for your partner and download Upward today. Upward is the number one Christian dating app. It's open to all denominations and it's perfect for the under 35 Christian daters, whether you're Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, non-denominational or anything else in between. Upward has Christians just like you who are looking for a godly relationship so give it a try for free. Download Upward today. That's U-P-W-A-R-D Upward. With the goals thing too, I think that a lot of people that go into therapy either go in and don't really have a goal or know like what they want to do. And I started therapy that way and I felt like I wasn't getting a ton out of it at first until I did set goals to say, okay, this is what I'm looking to get out of it. And it doesn't mean like do I want to try to reestablish a relationship or that be either with will or with family or whatever that may be. Not knowing I think just can make things like way more confusing, you know, like setting the goal and working towards that goal is important. Otherwise, I just kind of felt like I was spinning my wheels.

Totally. Yeah. And then like, why am I going? Right? Like, what, how's this benefiting me? And I also want people out there to know you don't have to go in knowing I want to do. Your goal can be I don't want to feel like more. That's a great goal. I've been crying a lot. I'd like to not do that. Those are goals to start because as a therapist, like I said, it's okay to ask even as a patient actually every three to four months if your therapist doesn't prompt it to say, hey, can you take a look at like my treatment plan or the goals that we have? You can call it either thing. They'll know what you're referencing and then assess it because let's say like for instance, when I went back into therapy, this is like two years ago, I was just like tearful a lot. And I was like, I've been crying a lot. Her name is Jan on my therapist. And I was like, Jan, I don't know what's going on, but I don't like it. I don't feel good. I'm not sure what's going on. I was like super stressed, overworked spoilers. You know, things that happen to us, we get overwhelmed. And but that wasn't really the goal in the end. That was the goal at the beginning. And it's okay to not really know and just to know what you don't want. That's good too. Okay, that's where I'm at. I feel like I know what I don't, I know what I don't want. I don't necessarily know what I want. I need to change behaviors. I wanted to go back to trauma bonding really quickly because that was like the huge, you know, our listeners were really interested in that. Can we talk about, I guess, more about what trauma bonding is just so that it's super clear or, you know, maybe there's

resources that you can share, but also how to break trauma bonding in a healthy way. Yeah, there's a great book. I'll have to look it up so I get the name and the author's name just write that I would really recommend I read it for research for this book even though we ended up not using that chapter. But trauma bonding is essentially when due to emotional overwhelm or trauma, whatever we want to call it right. In a really shitty situation, we bond with the person who's actually caused us harm, and it's done as a way to survive it. Right. If we fight against that person, it could cause us more trauma and harm. Therefore, it's safer like Stockholm syndrome right it's safer for me to bond to them. And it's something that we might not even be conscious that we're doing most of the time or not. We just feel connected to them. Also because we've been through trauma together we can just feel connected to people. And the, it, like I said it means we can fall in love with them. We can want to protect them and not want to report them or not want to tell anybody what you know we don't want any harm to befall them or anything to happen to them. We, it's almost like, because we've been through that together even though they were the one doing the harm. We still care. And it's an adaptive thing that we do.

Honestly it's like a without saying just an emotional thing because that makes it sound like it's something we're choosing it's more of just like psychologically it's how we're trying to survive. And the best way to, to break through it or to break away from it is to do the work in therapy to try to process the trauma because it's usually out of that need to survive. And that's part of our stress response that we've connected to them. And so until we can kind of lower that stress response and our stress response by the way is fight flight freeze. That's what it so if we're still in that we're still going to feel very connected to them and every time we're triggered or have a symptom of PTSD or trauma, we're going to feel connected again and be reminded of that connection. We're going to process it through in therapy meaning either it's talking it out, or it's doing, you know, some maybe it's Vegas nerve stimulation or maybe it's EMDR. That connection we will be able to see it more clearly for what it is, and slowly, and whatever they know this is slowly, slowly disconnect. Okay, so to that point, is it possible that someone, me, could disconnect, like, because it's been years, it's been at least, well, probably close to two years at this point, like, there are still certain things that happen. I feel a betrayal, but I, I never want to be with this person again, but I still feel like it's, you know, something that he does might be a betrayal or I don't know how to describe it.

It does not love I don't want to go back to them I don't want to be with them I don't nothing like that but still don't want to hurt their feelings still don't want to. Is that still a thing like two years later and therapy multiple years. Yeah, I mean, is have you been working on that specifically in therapy. Yeah, I mean that's been a bulk of it. Okay, I mean, part of it's part of it's that connection or pseudo connection because I don't think I definitely don't think it's real I think it's trauma bonding like I don't think it's like real love or anything like that and I know that. But it can feel real so I just want you to know that like even if we logically know hey this isn't healthy, or this will love, or this isn't real connection that doesn't make it less real to to our to our nervous system to what we did feel it doesn't. Just because something isn't healthy doesn't mean that it doesn't feel good. Do you know what I mean, and it's almost like, I like to explain like unhealthy loving connection and trauma bonding like especially that because it's, it's still so hard to disconnect we still feel somewhat tethered, even though logically we know I don't want them, but we can still feel tethered. And I think part of it is the, it's like the addiction to that type of relationship that feels so good it's almost like be it's like we're heroin addicts but we're not heroin addicts we're like that kind of love or that kind of toxic relationships addicts. That's literally compared to she compared it to heroin addiction.

That's so fun. Yeah, because the truth about it. Like do you feel that with your family at all or no like maybe not now I feel like you, you've been pretty strong. But like do you ever feel like even though there's been, I guess in a strange relationship for so long that you still feel like tethered. I, I was going to say this specific person that I, I feel that I had a trauma bond with that in my situation because it's not someone like I have to see or someone that I had a child with that maybe that could be the difference in the video because I could see where it would be harder to get over something when you're seeing someone all the time because you share a child or children with them. Does that make sense? Yeah. Since mine was not that and I don't have to see the person, don't communicate, have worked through therapy. I don't, the person, it's hard to explain like feels like a stranger to me. Okay.

So maybe the distance allowed you to disconnect more, you know, because I do think there is something to, like, if we're talking like romantic relationships and like the texting that can happen or the calls or the random reasons to be seeing each other can, it's almost like we were compared to the heroin, right? It's almost like we're getting these little bumps of it when we're trying to detox. And probably in your situation, Lindsay, it was easier for you to disconnect and I've heard that from, I have a patient years ago who has a bunch of siblings, and the ones that live the farthest from their narcissistic mom are completely cut off from her and feel so much better, but the ones that live nearby, the guilt and they still get pulled in and I think distance in some ways can give us that little extra oof to kick the habit since we're talking about it. No, I, that makes complete sense that statement alone, because I, and I actually had a conversation with my friend last week about it was like she's like you cut your mom off like your mother she gave birth to you and you cut her off and you can't cut these other people off. That makes so much so much sense I don't have her phone number I don't have her address I don't know where she lives there is. Last I knew she was at least four hours from me so it's not. Like, there's what cold turkey I guess like you just cut him off cold turkey like one day just stopped answering her calls and never looked back so it's very different I think you guys made a really interesting point so I'm going to bring that up in therapy on Thursday. Now that makes sense and Lindsay, I that makes sense like that's like my mom just cut her off and you don't have to deal with it I don't have to see or don't have to hear from her. Yeah, but then. Yeah, you don't I guess for our listeners and for people in my situation how do you cut off a trauma bond with someone that you do have to see or deal with on any type of level.

So we're going to have to find a way this will come into like tools and techniques and therapy. So we're going to have to find a way think like back to the I like the heroin analogy and this is why I brought it up which is great that your therapist use the same one. If we're going to stop the addiction, because it really can feel that way we can feel this tethered in this very unhealthy can't get rid of it kind of way. If we want to stop doing that drug. And we want to, we don't want to switch over to another drug which is what we've probably done before right we quit heroin, only to find ourselves doing cocaine, I don't know I'm just making up things, and that's no better. We instead need to figure out spend some time, even outside of therapy but in therapy to visit that I like so much about it that it gave me was it stability, was it consistency. Was it affection, attention connection, it could be all these things by the way I'm just throwing out things as I think was it. Was it that, as my mom would call it Twitter patient when you get excited. Did it give me that excitement, and I felt really wanted. What was it, or was it because like the in therapy we talk about why we like bad boys or bad girls like why people are attracted to those people and it's actually because they're, they're super self sufficient independent they don't need us to give them anything. They don't want to give them their thing. So was it that people always need something from me. They don't. I don't know. Let's, let's think about it in a very non judgmental just like I was called being a detective, be a detective, figure out why this is happening.

If we're getting out of that relationship, then we can look for ways to give it to ourselves in a healthy way, meaning, like, if what they gave me was like connection and attention, then when I feel that draw to get pulled back in, can I call Lindsay can I call a good friend can I feel connected in a way that's actually beneficial. And yes I know everybody out there's like it's not gonna feel the same. It doesn't feel the same because they don't want it to feel the same that's not healthy. They don't want to try to give us a healthy version of that. Let's check in. You know, is it. We need someone we wanted to feel wanted. Then can we, you know, maybe it's our children, maybe it's another friend can we set up plans where we let them know like him having a hard time and they know that means to ask you to help them out on something. Not really and kind of fabricated but you'd be surprised how many of us like people pleasers fixers love to have a project. So can we start a project can someone invite us to help on a project. We can get really creative you know think outside the box what are some ways that we can get that need met so that we don't keep going back to that old drug. I mean, okay, let me know what you find out. Well, I definitely will part two coming soon. I have therapy on Thursdays and I always go over my time so I think I just need to just add a whole other day of therapy. Well, that gives you space to because then you're processing through part of the week, and you have less to process you know what I mean what kind of cutting up time I think you'll be surprised how helpful that second session will be.

Lindsay's also a therapist for me so she's just very like. Excuse me good I wish I could do what like she'll just whatever she says goes she does it she sticks to her guns she knows what she's going to do she cuts off the bad relationships and I want to be like that I tell her all the time. And everything that she's done through this entire like big change in her life has just been like, I don't want to say inspiring I don't know if that's the right word but I, I look up to her in it and I want to be more like that in my relationships moving forward is like I don't want, you know, be sure in all my decisions and not ignore red flags, work on my own red flags. And I know a lot of our listeners are in the same situation as me or Lindsay or combination of both. So I know that this is but this will be really helpful to everybody. And I think it mean, hopefully it's helpful and I also want everybody out there that's like a Lindsay of this situation to know that you don't always have to be the tough person, like I always ask my patients who do that I'm like who's tough for you. Who, you know, who can you be soft with, because then we need to find someone where we can be soft because the, because I'm kind of a Lindsay in that way to where I'm just like, I'll be done. I'm done. I'm done. But I'm still sad. And so, make sure that you're making time for that, the grief, the sadness, and know that you need to have a place even if it's just in therapy that's fine.

Have a place where you can fall apart because you don't have to have it all together all the time. Lindsay. Yeah, I think my hardest. Like I can, I feel like I can. I have good judgment, I guess is maybe the word to use but who is strong for me like I don't have any answer to that like I guess just myself which isn't enough. I just have therapy and then I don't really talk to anybody throughout the week because I'm just like trying to process my own stuff and it's hard and it's heavy and also processing it before speaking about it has been something that I've tried to live by you know like I just, I have fully processed something and know where I stand on it, I don't want to speak on it because I don't want to speak too soon and then change my mind because when I say something I want people to know I say it and I mean it. Yeah, I also wish I was like that. And I think we all do, but it is also important. And again like speaking personally like it is important to find a safe person or a safe place to fall apart. Yeah, we do have to process before we talk. And find up just find up I'd encourage you to start thinking and considering it whether it's therapy right that's a good place to start and I'm glad you have that. And I think I wouldn't be surprised if you struggle to cry too much in therapy maybe you don't, but letting yourself feel not be so tough. Yeah, it's a good way to put it.

Thank you so much for coming on coffee combos. I feel like we need a part two already. If is there, are there any projects that you're working on that you want to share where can people find you I know people are definitely going to go check out your profile and stuff so whatever you want to share. Definitely do that. Yeah, I have my own podcast ask Katie anything where I answer mental health questions from my audience and those come out on Thursdays and then obviously my YouTube channel Katie Morton new videos every Monday and get my new book. Yes, he's so pretty. And hopefully she's helpful. And I know it's a very heavy topic but at the end of each chapter I offer key takeaways and there are things you can do in the book like taking impulse logs out of it and using those. I really want it to be just a helpful tool, not just a read through once and you know put on the shelf kind of book. Right. I love that. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me. That is the end of this episode of coffee combos podcast. Thank you so much for listening and we hope that you guys have a great weekend. We'll talk to you next week. See ya.