Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 188: What To Expect, Making Your Own Choices, and Feeling Connected To Your Kids with Heidi Murkoff

Episode Date: November 4, 2021

On this week's episode Kail and Lindsie are joined by author of What To Expect When You're Expecting, Heidi Murkoff. Heidi talks about how she came to write the book, and how it has evolved and taken on a life of it's own since the original release. Lindsie, Kail, and Heidi talk about how difficult it can be to find out information about pregnancy, especially when everyone online thinks they know the best and only way to do things. Heidi believes at the end of the day, the best thing you can do is to make your own decision about what is best for you and your baby. And there are so many women and parents who do not feel that initial connection with their baby. Heidi discusses why you should not be ashamed, and what to do to make that bond stronger every single day. This episode was sponsored by: Ana Luisa, Upstart, MamaZen, & Peloton Music by Nathaniel Wyvern. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License.

All right, everyone, we're here, Coffee Combo's podcast. I hope everyone is doing okay on this fine Monday. Yeah, professional and I look like a super fan right now. Listen, this morning I was a whole mess dropping my kids off at school. I had a bun on the top of my head, no makeup on. I said, catch me at pickup and I will be looking 10 times better. So here we are. Well done.

Yes, thank you. The transformation has occurred. Yes. So thank you so much for joining us on Coffee Combo's. Well, I'm so happy to be here with my coffee. Yes, same. I have, I have dunk in this morning. So I haven't ventured outside.

It's way too early. Okay, everyone. So we do, I was special guest today. We have Heidi Murkoff and I'm super pumped about this because I have read all your, like the entire series from, I was 17 when I got pregnant. So I'm, I'm just super pumped about this. So pretty much your whole life you've been with, I've been with you. Yeah, yeah.

And I, it took me a minute to realize because I also had the what to expect app on my phone. Yes. I never connected the dots until recently that you are the same person who wrote the books. Right. I'm the one in the video. Yes.

I'm the one who wrote the book. Yeah. A lot of people have a hard time making that connection. I'm not sure why, but yeah, anything with what to expect on it. Right. That's me. Okay. Awesome.

That makes sense. I mean, I'm, I just had a little one last year. So I have 11, seven, four and one and Lindsay has a little boy too. So we, between us, we have five boys. Oh, my daughter has two boys. Okay. Yeah. We're all in the same club.

Well, of course I had a daughter obviously because my daughter has a voice, but I had a daughter in this one. So yeah, how old is your little guy? Let's see. He will be nine at the end of December. No way. Lennox, our oldest grandson is going to be nine in February. I love that.

Okay. So what led you to create the series? What to expect? Well, stop me if you've heard this one, but I got knocked out. True story. Yeah. We got, we like met in September, got married in April and oops, three months later, I was pregnant.

Didn't see that coming. I guess I should have seen that coming, but that's how young I was and clueless. So here I am pregnant. There's like no books to read, like a handful and all of them were written by people who had never been pregnant before. So, you know, doctors. I mean, male doctors.

So it was, um, it was, I had nowhere to go for answers to my questions. And to talk me off the ledge, there was no internet, which was probably almost a mixed blessing, if not looking back, but nowhere to go to. So I actually delivered a proposal for a book that would become what to expect when you're expecting two hours before I went into labor with Emma. So it was a busy day. I was already starting my multitasking career as a mom.

Uh, yeah, I delivered two babies in the same day. But yeah, it was more or less, I, I couldn't find the answers. I was determined that other parents would sleep better at night than Eric and I had and that was it. I figured if a handful of parents slept better, I had, you know, mission accomplished, right? It's what I set out to do. So, you know, the rest is history, but it wasn't a history that was I

intended to make happen. I didn't like go out and say, Oh, let me write a bestselling book or a series of books or develop an app. How could I do that? Cause there were so internet. So it was, it, it evolved over time, but the mission hasn't changed from the first day. Right.

I was, um, actually reading about, um, I think all the additions because obviously you probably have made, you know, some, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Not improvements, but, um, like added some things over the years. So, um, did you ever expect to have the success with the book that you, that you've had? Cause I, I think, no, never, never, never, never. Um, and it was, it was really slow, um, a slow growth.

It wasn't, you know, like an overnight sensation because literally it was the first book that was written from a mom's perspective. And there was, there were a lot, a lot of people in the medical community who were like, what do pregnant women know about, about, you know, pregnancy? Like, okay, let me sit you down and explain what I know. I know because I've been there. I mean, you know, the thing is, it's not just written from a perspective of, um, empathy, which is really, really important because you got to put

yourself in, in those shoes that don't fit because your feet are swollen. You know, you got to have that perspective, but also accurate information that you can trust and sort of intuitive in knowing, okay, this is what I am going to be worrying about, you know, at this point in my pregnancy. So, and then, you know, first year because people wanted it. And then, you know, I recently, more recently, I wrote the prequel to what to expect, which is what to expect before you're expecting, which is all about, um, getting pregnant beyond the obvious, you know, the, uh, fertility

and things like that. So, um, you know, none of it was expected, but again, the mission is the same, hasn't changed. A lot of things about pregnancy have changed, like it's, it's still nine months, you know, give or take. Right. Um, and you're still bloated and queasy and constipated and yet some things have changed the way that we, um, the way that we are pregnant

sort of is, you know, we celebrate it more, we talk about it more. We don't cover it up in big, like polyester pup tents that you could sleep with a family of four under and said, we embrace everything that's changing about our bodies, maybe not everything, but we embrace. I definitely think that, um, as I had more children, the, the, what to expect for me was a little bit different. I felt like the, by my second, my third, my fourth, people were not as nice to me, um, because it's like, oh, you've already been through this.

Like you're fine. Right. Right. Right. People don't realize that with every pregnancy is different things. And so you still need the same amount of like the poor and empathy. And just because I did this three times before doesn't mean that I'm not still going through something different in this pregnancy. Exactly.

Like they're like, there's, they're thinking, oh, you could do this in your sleep. Yeah, exactly. Complaining. Exactly. In fact, like you said, every pregnancy and every baby is completely different. Um, and, and also when you have three other kids clamoring for your attention, it's not like you get to be the pregnant princess.

Remember that first pregnancy and you're like, everyone's waiting on you and standing up for you and offering you their seat and whatnot. And then you've got a few kids and whole different ball games. Lindsay, did everyone like cater to you when you were pregnant? Um, yeah. Definitely. And I was just sitting here internally thinking maybe I would have a similar experience to the first time, a second time, because it's been so long since

I, yeah, yeah, that I didn't have like back to back to back. So it's not, it'll be exciting again. Yeah, it would be like the first kind of, yeah. And I hear that, yeah. I hear that all the time from, um, clearly I meet a lot of moms. Um, and I hear that a lot from moms who have big age gaps between their kids. It's like, it's the first time it's like starting all over again. And, you know, things have changed in not just in pregnancy, you know,

the like, maybe you had an apesiotomy and they don't do that anymore or things like that, but recommendations on vaccines, whatever. Um, but you, you also, um, you have a whole new perspective because it's so fresh and, and this, you know, this feels so new to you, um, even though it's not new at all. And your body too. Your body is like, what? I haven't done this in a while.

I think about it so often and that I wouldn't know what to do. And I don't know that that even makes sense. But, and I think it's almost nine years old, but how do you do all of the things that you did before? I have no idea. That's terrifying. Well, yes, except, you know, as we said, every pregnancy is different. So it's not like your body automatically.

I think we give way too much credit to like our bodies knowing the way. I think I know for me, I didn't know anything and I didn't know the way. And I was, I couldn't understand the things that my body was doing to me. Um, which seemed like mother nature had a really twisted sense of humor in the face is like, well, I didn't expect this. Um, so yeah, your, your body is long for the ride and to a certain extent, but at the same time, knowledge is power. So, you know, when you become pregnant again, things have changed.

You want to read up and, and become as informed as you can. And that doesn't mean you're going to be able to control everything because even for us, you know, I don't know about you guys, but I am super, super type A plus, plus, plus, plus. So I like to control everything, but this is one thing you cannot control. A lot of it. You can control somebody eating well and exercising and all that stuff, but you can't, your body is, you know, in certain respects out of your control

and, and how your pregnancy goes and how your labor and delivery goes. You can have all the plans you want to, maybe not. Yeah, I can't, I can't always go exactly how you plan it. I know that was one of the things that when I first had, you know, my first son, um, people were like, Oh, make sure you have like a birth plan written down. Um, and so I was panicking thinking I needed this birth plan, but it, even if I had done a birth plan, it was never going to, I didn't have it with me. It went, I, you know, I went early all kinds of things.

So, um, for me, that just didn't work out. All right, you guys, we're going to take a quick break to talk about one of our partners, Ana Luisa, and I always get so excited when we partner with them on our show, because I wear one of their necklaces every single day of my life and just absolutely love it so much. Ana Luisa was founded to bring clarity to the jewelry industry. They designed pieces with a beautiful story from beginning to end, starting with recycled materials, whenever possible, transparent business practices,

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Go to shop.analuisa.com slash combos. That's A-N-A-L-U-I-S-A and you use code combos for 10% off. I absolutely recommend them. They're a great brand making beautiful sustainable jewelry. Go check out shop.analuisa.com slash combos again. That's A-N-A-L-U-I-S-A and use code combos for 10% off. One of the listeners had not one of the listeners, several listeners were wondering it like what can you say no to and like do you need a birth plan?

These are obviously listeners that don't have kids or are expecting themselves. Is that something that you have recommended in the past or do you no recommend? Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. I feel you do you is really extra important when you're pregnant and not what all the cool kids are doing or what everybody else is telling you to do on social media, it's your body, your baby, your business. As long as what you're choosing to do is healthy and safe, then you do you.

So that could mean I don't want a birth plan. Like my daughter, Emma, she ordered an epidural before she even got pregnant. She knew that that had her name on it. I happen to do natural both times only because it was crunchy granola era, the 80s. And I just nobody offered me anything. So I just whimpered into a pillow. But yeah, you can do your birth plan. I totally recommend getting, you know, taking childbirth education classes.

Even if you think like we're going to get the epidural, you know, everybody else knows what they're doing. I'm just going to walk through this and that's fine. And probably everything will go well. But the more you know, right, so take so that you know anything that could happen because you never know what's going to happen. You'll be prepared if you plan a vaginal, but end up with an epidural. You'll be prepared if you, I mean, planned a vaginal and end up with a C-section

or you plan unmedicated and you need an epidural. All of those things, you know, they might happen, they might go out the window. But the more you know, the better, the more empowered you feel. Knowledge is power. And the other thing I always recommend, and they probably didn't have this room as an option when you were pregnant the first time, but a doula. A doula is your support person. You know, and doctors come and go, nurses come and go, they don't sit by your side.

A doula does. And even if you know you're going to have a medicated birth, it doesn't matter. If you can get a doula to sit by and support you from the first contraction all the way afterwards, doesn't take the place of your partner. Not at all. A doula is there to support you and your partner to advocate for you, to explain things when things are going, you know, how sometimes it gets hectic in a birthing room and everybody's doing stuff and you don't know why they're doing it

or what they're doing and they can explain it. They basically are there only for you. They don't deliver babies. They're not like midwives. They are not medically trained. They are support people. And I totally recommend that. I didn't have a doula for any of mine except for, I did a home birth for my last one.

And she, my midwife brought a doula and I mean, at that point, it was pretty much already giving birth, like crowning. But it was nice to kind of see how she talked to me through everything as my midwife. My midwife was great too. Doing certain things like the, you're right, like the doula just like explained them. So I kind of knew what was going on, not just like watching people, you know, move in front of me. So I definitely heard about doulas probably by my second pregnancy.

But if I was to have another baby, I would definitely get one. I feel like they're the missing link in maternal healthcare and especially important for first time moms, moms who are single, don't have a partner with them. I work a lot with military moms. And if, if their partners are deployed or in training, it makes all the difference to have that one person with you to hold your hand, rub your, you know, give you a massage, feed you ice ships and just be there for you. Right.

Yeah. I didn't even think about like military families. That's a good point. So I, when I was reading about everything, the success of the book and everything I saw that you also have a nonprofit. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes. So it's what to expect project. And, you know, you know how the mission is of what to expect is to support moms through this experience and empower them with

information and hold their hands. You know, I kind of like to think of what to expect as a big giant metaphorical hug because I'm a big hugger. So everything's about the hug and, and I want you to feel hugged during that experience. But for a lot of moms who can't afford to buy books who don't maybe don't have access to good prenatal care, respectful and responsive care, moms around the world who, you know, deliver without the, you know, the assistance of, of even a midwife with no basic infrastructure like running water. But he even here in the United States, we have the highest maternal mortality rate in the world among developed nations and black moms are three times more likely to die than white moms. And that's just unacceptable stuff. So we, we advocate for them, but also we have a program with the, with the military called special delivery, which I've since 2013, we've done baby showers for military moms around the world, probably at this point 300 showers for maybe, I don't know, 30,000 moms, I've lost count, but they're in Korea, Guam, Okinawa, Kansas.

We were just this week in Oklahoma and, and Kentucky and the very southern part of Texas, where moms are isolated, you know, that being pregnant is hard enough under the best of circumstances. Right. You've been there, you know, it's a challenge. But if you take away a mom from her family and her friends and her network of support and plunker down in either a foreign country or 2000 miles away from her family in the US, in Alaska, you know, anywhere that you're far from your family, it becomes so much exponentially harder, especially when there's deployment, but even, you know, when there isn't because you don't have someone there for you. And so I don't think we've, I never fully appreciated what military families go through. You kind of think you do, but you don't. And so it's really important for us to, to support them and to celebrate them and to be grateful, because they serve to, right, even if not active duty, and the active duty moms who are pregnant, oh man, they serve for two. Like, that is hard work. But they do it. And it's amazing. And they deserve our appreciation, which is why we do the program. So let's talk about Upstart. What would you do if you didn't have high interest loans or credit card debt? With Upstart, you can pay off your existing debt quickly and easily and start living your life. If you're carrying a credit card balance month after month and you feel like you're in a number ending cycle of debt with no end in sight, Upstart can help you make that final payment so you can get ahead. Upstart is the fast and easy way to pay off your debt with a personal loan all online.

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My ex husband is military as well and we had to move while I was pregnant. Yeah, we got stationed in Delaware and I was still driving back to Pennsylvania because that's where my family was that's where my doctor was and it was just one of those things where none of my other friends were pregnant. So even when they were trying to be there for me, they just couldn't. You just can't relate. Exactly. Maybe I met your, your friend or your. Are you in Japan. Well, we go to Japan all the time. Oh, since COVID, we've done all the showers virtually. So I just did a whole round of showers in Okinawa mainland Japan, Korea, Guam. So I'm, she might have come to one of the showers. I might have to ask her that's so cool. Yeah, yeah. So, but if not, she can come to the next one I'll definitely be in Japan next year. And we did reunions, you know, we get together with all the moms and the dads and the babies and, and it's so much fun. I love them. They're so inspiring.

Very hard life. I mean, being pregnant is always a hard life. It's all a matter of perspective. You know, in South, we've been to South Sudan twice. And, you know, it's a civil war has pretty much devastated the entire country and has for many years. And we were in a midwife training facility where they, they train midwives to take care of moms who otherwise would not have anyone attending their one in nine moms there die during childbirth. And a woman walks in very pregnant had walked 14 miles in labor to get to a clinic. And if you can only imagine barefoot so we complain a lot about, you know, the birthing room didn't have this or that, you know, there was no soft music playing. You know, perspective is incredibly helpful. It is hard for everybody different challenges, but the moms it's extremely, extremely hard. But the bottom line is we all are emotionally connected we all share, you know, the bond of motherhood is sisterhood, and we all want what's best for our babies. Of course, I know I've seen like on groups and stuff people argue about what's better and you know this and that but at the end of the day it's personally just want to see everyone do what's best for themselves and their child I don't really care. If I didn't do it doesn't mean that it's not right for someone else. Yeah, there should be no mom judging no mom shaming and there's way too much of it.

You know, you shouldn't. It's absolutely, like I said your body your business your baby, and, and yet you don't need to in, you know, push your views on another mom who's trying to find her way. Right. That's, that's her job to do. I think about so often whenever I was pregnant. I didn't have any friends that were pregnant at the same time as me I was the youngest friend group. I felt so alone in that but then I would get, I specifically remember one incident that I was taking a bath and I thought I started lactating and I was like 18 weeks pregnant and I thought oh my gosh like, is this a sign that I'm going to have this baby now. And I'm just, you know, poor, I would get in the bath and I would just pour. And so I would get on to these forums, and it was all of these women, you know, like, having similar symptoms but all different things going on and then yelling at each other and I'm like, Oh wow, this is not helpful to me and this gives me some anxiety.

And I don't have anyone to ask. Right. Well, you couldn't ask me, but because I do answer every question that I get on social media, but you're right. You know, not only when you ask you might get conflicting advice, but you also might get, and this is kind of worse. Wrong advice advice that could be harmful and there's a lot of that going on these days because of, you know, anti science anti vax kind of stuff. And that's unfortunate because it's leading. It's misleading disinforming a lot of people about what's best, and what's safest and what's health is so it's a, it's a jungle out there. It's a very jungle out there and I also was going to make another point that pregnancy as much as I did feel celebrated. It's a very lonely journey when, even when you have a super supportive spouse, or because everything's changing about you and nothing seems to be changing about them so I think it's really hard for anyone to understand what your body is going through and I had a great pregnancy so

Absolutely and I think something that we've started to talk about more but clearly not enough. In fact, a mom just asked me on Facebook, you know, we hear about postpartum depression what about pregnancy depression, you know the rates of maternal mood disorders because it's not just depression. There's anxiety disorder. There's OCD. There's even PTSD, if you've had a previous pregnancy that was traumatic or a previous delivery that was traumatic. So there's lots of ways that it manifests, but COVID has made the isolation so much greater, and the sense that you're alone, so it's much greater, and the rates of these mood disorders have increased, especially among military moms but also among moms who are having, who, you know, having financial worries during the pandemic so there have been a lot of stresses, and things like, I've had so many moms say, you know, I was pregnant, I'm pregnant during the pandemic, I feel cheated, because I can't have my baby shower, you know, and in things of course are getting better now but at the time, they couldn't, you know, have gatherings, and they couldn't go out and show off their baby and it was, you know, you think, oh well you got the woman in South Sudan walking 14 miles to have a safe birth perspective but at the same time, your feelings are valid. Right.

If you're feeling isolated if you're not feeling happy, but if it's at the point, you know, certain amount of that is normal, mood swings, you know, comes with the package, but if it's keeping you from eating or sleeping or functioning, or enjoying your pregnancy or attaching to your baby, which is a gradual process but an important process, then that needs, you need to see a doctor get a referral, get the therapy that you need in other treatment, and it's really important that we don't kind of sweep that under the sofa, and that we talk about it openly and don't judge moms or say, oh, you're fine, you're fine, you know, this is, yeah, you're just pregnant, no, sometimes you're not fine and sometimes being strong means asking for help and that's what we have to encourage our mom sisters to do. And that was something I struggled with with my fourth because I already was single. And on top of that, you know, I did have people supporting me but they couldn't even go to appointments with me, because it was all during the pandemic so thankfully was able to have them during my labor and delivery since I birthed at home. But that was really, really hard because I, the circumstances weren't great, and I felt so alone. I didn't think about that I didn't think about like the pandemic and all of that but it all makes sense now that I'm connecting with us. You had to have a baby shower and you kind of had that whole thing about no one will be able to come because of the pandemic. Yeah, yeah, you're right because I've never I had I had a baby shower when I was 16. And then never again after that and so it would have been really nice to have like something and then COVID hit and definitely didn't happen but that's okay I mean we're happy now babies here and healthy so I can't, I can't complain.

Well, but you can complain. Get tired of going to people's baby showers that have like kid after kid after kid you know like is it less exciting do they feel like it's a chore that they're having to go to a few shower. So I haven't had one since I was 16 and you know the things change like the, the, like gadgets I guess you could call them and like the yeah just like very different and I think it would have been more of like a celebration versus like bring a gift, you know. Yeah, and there are ways you can work around that. You don't have, have people donate books or whatever. Right, that's a lot of ways to celebrate a baby without the stuff, right, you might not even need, but, and most stuff you don't need. Because they create it doesn't mean you have to buy it, but at the same time just celebrating that mom because I think that's the important part not even celebrating baby baby is going to get plenty of celebration but celebrating the mom and the tremendous efforts her body is making it's heavy lifting. Let's focus on her, especially in a third or fourth pregnancy. For sure. I agree.

And while we're on the subject of being moms and what to expect and all the things mom and pregnancy related. I have the perfect app for you guys. So as moms, you know our emotional and mental well being has been neglected for a long time. I've been a mom for almost 12 years now so I completely get it. Mama Zen is a revolutionary solution for motherhood burnout, anxiety, irritability, impatience and so much more and I've struggled with the irritability and the impatience and definitely mom guilt as well. After you download the mama Zen app, you definitely want to take a listen to the mind power session. There's one called be more patient. It's about 12 to 18 minutes and I definitely just think that you guys would be in a better headspace, even if it's just on your lunch break or you have a minute in the bathroom by yourself or you're in the shower to listen to one of these. Like I said, I've experienced all kinds of things as a mom, especially with different kids and different pregnancy experiences. You guys know it's different every single time. So mama Zen will teach you how to deal with your kids difficult behavior if you struggle with that and you just need more love and patience when you're dealing with them. No judgment. This is a judgment free zone. Mind power sessions are short. They're between two and 18 minutes and mama Zen also has short emergency sessions when you're about to lose it and you just need something to calm you down immediately. So imagine a world where your child has a tantrum misbehaves or doesn't listen to you and you respond calmly to the situation and avoid yelling and snapping. That is possible with mama Zen. I really want you guys to try mama Zen and try for yourself. See it for yourself. How much better you can feel as a mom, go to your app store or Google Play and download mama Zen today. That's M A M A Z E N mama Zen.

Right now, if you use promo code convos, it will unlock your free trial so you can try mama Zen for yourself. Mamas, you know, your mental and emotional well being is the most important thing for you, your kids and your family. So don't postpone it any longer. Before we move on to our next thing. I just have to ask since we're talking about baby showers. Um, the diaper genie. Yeah, I'm not a fan. I never was. Yeah, I just take the trash out like put it in a trash bag and take it out. I don't love it and some people hate it so I need to know. Kale, were you a fan of the diaper genie or no, I was not a I actually didn't have a diaper genie until my fourth. And I, it was so bad at stuff I just know I'm not a fan of the diaper genie at all. Yeah, I mean I think it's, it's another layer that you don't necessarily need but my daughter what swore swear still. Well, it's not even going to the fact that her three and a half year old is still in diapers but we'll discuss that another time. I'm not mad about that, Emma. Okay, recently we talked about parenting our children differently than we were parented. What are some new factors and parenting today that our parents didn't need to deal with and just some tips for navigation.

Our parents had it so easy in so many different ways. I mean, let's face it. I mean I'm much older than you guys, but I went out to play. I thought like, you know, there's more, there are more risks more taboos more things that you keep kids under, you know, walk in key more of these days. And speaking of keys like I used to stay home I used to come be a latchkey kid come home by myself, it was no big deal. I used to walk to the bus stop. So those things, I feel we have to keep our kids entertained more especially, hey, during the pandemic, that was hard, that was hard work. And making sure you got your kids schoolwork done and also keep them entertained and safe and healthy that was a lot. But I think, you know, the amount of screen time that kids do of course that's a big topic for parents today like when do you allow them to have an iPad and how much time do you should maybe spending on it, and whatever happened to just like imaginary play and making for some things like that. So, there's a balance to everything. I think, and you've got to find that balance for you and your kids because just like every mom is different every parent is different, every kid is different. But I like to focus on things that, you know, we're kind of more common when when I was growing up like having dinner together, you know, spending time as a family together. Maybe there was too much of that during the pandemic. But then social media like you have to make big decisions about whether your kid is going to have an Instagram account and how will they feel later on in life when, you know, when they see all these posts of their butts or whatever, you know, are hard things to deal with. What do you find is is different from when your parents raised you.

I don't know about the times must have been so much simpler in the 90s. But then I also feel like I intentionally do things different than I was. Oh yes, yes. I don't know if it's just because I am allowed to make that choice to parent differently. And it's truly because I disagree with how I was parented or it also the times play a factor in some of the reasons why I do things differently. And also it's like a knee jerk reaction like whatever my mom did I'm going to do the opposite. I feel like Emma, you know she asked for my advice 24 seven, she takes it 00. And then she regrets it because listen I mean I'm not just a mom but I know my shit, like, seriously. And so you could people trust me with, you know, asking their questions and getting their answers but it's so funny because I'm her mom she doesn't listen to me so there's that factor as well. I think but you want to do it your way you and then then there are times that you find yourself doing something that your mom always did that you always for you never do right. Oh, for sure. Yes.

So, it comes back to bite you sometimes. I wanted to talk to you about postpartum sex. Yes, please. Okay, Lindsay, are you okay with this topic. Oh yeah, I don't care. Okay, I mean, I care about it but I don't care. Okay, okay. So I think there's like mixed. There's like conflicting. I don't want to call them rumor information will call it information. So the six weeks after you give birth. I thought, originally it was for like healing purposes you know if you have stitches or just like, it just went through a traumatic experience like this needs time to heal. And then like as I got older, they were, you know, people were telling me it's for fertility like you're the most fertile after you give birth and so it's like wait, oh, back up.

You are, which is why you use birth control. Okay, okay. First time you have sex postpartum doesn't matter if it's on the birthing bed like two hours after your, you give birth, you use birth control it's just, I just want to emphasize that because it's not likely that you'll get pregnant, but you could. So that's not I mean, healing is the primary reason, because even if you didn't have an apesiatomy, say you even if you didn't have a tear and a repair, you still there's things aren't closed up in there there's a lot of potential for infections you want to make sure things are. And it doesn't necessarily have to be six weeks that's quite kind of the catch. So routine suggestion recommendation that's made but a lot of midwives okay at before that. The question is more. Are you feeling like having sex right now. Oh, absolutely. And when you, yeah, I mean, not only does it hurt the first time.

Maybe the second time, maybe the 15th time, especially if you're breastfeeding because you're very dry down there, but also because you're you've gone your, your parts have gone through a lot of wear and tear so one thing to keep in mind is that it's great to have a pelvic floor therapist. If you can get one during pregnancy to help your body get ready for labor and delivery. They, and to help you with all the aches and pains of pregnancy, I cannot recommend a pelvic floor therapist, enough, so get a referral for them, and then they can help you postpartum because reality is that sex shouldn't hurt after the first couple of months. And if it does, they can help you out with that. And also help your body get back to where it needs to be which isn't necessarily right back to where it was but we're where it can the potential is there. So, and so that you can start working out again and other things like that so get a pelvic floor therapist that'll help. Okay, but I mean also cut yourself some slack. Because new mom life isn't necessarily super romantic. You know, you're, instead of the massage oil by your bed, you know that you used to have you've got the nipple cream, hyper cream and nipple cream and you're, you're leaking and you're, yeah, you heard all over smell of spit up is right.

You know, you've got to work hard in five days like cut yourself some slack. I think the, the dads of need to be listening to this part of the podcast more for them. I don't I, I remember my after my first son, I waited like three months because I just like wasn't there yet want to and then like I was afraid of it hurting. I was like nervous. Yes, I won't talk about how soon after birth I have had sex but also not very comfortable but I mean what other, aside from a public a pelvic floor therapist what other do you have. Well, lots of lubrication. Good point. Again, you're super dry finding positions that are comfortable which can be hard I mean especially if you had a C section or certain positions that won't be comfortable. Also important for him to know, and this takes communication but communication is the most important part of a relationship for him to know what feels good, what hurts, what you're ready for what you're not ready for. And to have an open conversation about that a lot of times moms assume he doesn't find me attractive anymore. And that's not true, but like they don't talk about it so she's internalizing all these things and not sharing them with him. Maybe he's afraid, afraid of hurting her, you know they're all different layers to this, and you just got to talk about it, not, you know, make accusations all over the place. It's a new dynamic, you know you can't just waltz into the house with a baby and expect everything to be exactly the same. In some cases it can be better than it ever was before but it takes that communication and taking some of the pressure off yourself and off with him

to. And also, the more he helps the better the better it's going to be because you can recover faster. I feel like a lot of women just don't talk about because sometimes you don't want to look weak in any way to your partner. And so you don't talk about the struggles that you're internally having. I felt way prettier whenever I was fully pregnant than when I gave birth. Oh, yeah, yeah. That whole process. Just from a mental standpoint. Okay, now I have this deflated stomach but like it doesn't look that good. I definitely was not ready to have sex before six weeks, and that is not where my mind was whatsoever. I mean I was in love with him, probably more than ever because the best gift ever. But that was not something that I wanted to do, and I wanted to be cleared by my doctor first. Yeah, doing it wasn't on top of your to-do list. Yeah, right. No. And that's the bottom line. And that's fine. But I think sometimes, you know, your feelings are valid about, you know, your insecurities about your body. But more often than not, he doesn't see it that way and just talking about it can make you feel better. So it's not easy. No, it's not easy.

Normalizing communication with your significant other, you know, I was not comfortable talking about any of my body changes or anything like that. Yeah, no, for sure. But at the same time, I feel the more he knows to, you know, I said the more you know, but the more he knows the better. And I feel like if he, you know, has the app, reads a book, whatever, knows what your body is going through, even if you don't feel comfortable talking about it, that can help significantly. I think sometimes we keep dads on the outside looking in. And that makes them feel left out of the process. And in a lot of ways that's detrimental, not only to your relationship, but also to their relationship with their baby. Because we're thinking, Oh, moms are the best at this, you know, we do this well. And they're, they're just standing by looking at this happening and feeling left out. When in fact, and then this is classic, you know, you'll have mom say, Oh, you never do anything. You never help with the baby. And then they try to help with the baby only you're doing it all wrong. I'll do it. So it's this kind of maternal gatekeeping. But that, that just trickles down to all parts of your relationship, you know, it's got to be a team effort in every sense of the word. And there's no secret sauce to, to being a mom, except for this secret sauce besides, you know, breast milk, besides that, we don't have a market on nurturing.

This can be just as nurturing as moms can be given the opportunity. They, they, they have hormonal changes during pregnancy and postpartum. They have a surgeon estrogen and a drop in testosterone. They create, they produce oxytocin when they do skin to skin with their baby. So it's sort of like equals the playing field to look at it that way and then in this team effort, you know, the team will get around to having sex again but in the meantime, in this together, that's the most important takeaway. All right, you guys, we're going to take a quick break to talk about one of our partners Peloton and I know that you guys know that I love Peloton. You know that sometimes when things get overwhelming, taking care of yourself can be the first thing to go. But even if all you can spare is 15 minutes, you can seamlessly fit cardio and strength class into your routine with Peloton. And that's what I love about it. If I don't have time to make it to the gym, or I have just scheduled my day around knowing that I'm going to ride my Peloton. It makes it so nice just the convenience of it being in your house and knowing that everything that you need is right there. Your instructor, your workout, you name it. There's never been a better moment to commit to your fitness goals because the original Peloton bike is now $400 less.

I love that they have inspiring instructors. That's one of the best parts for me. They have great music and Peloton isn't just game changing cardio. I love that you can add the strength class to your ride to combine cardio and strength into one workout with a bike boot camp to get your total body fitness experience. And you can do one subscription for the whole family. The all access membership is like a family plan for no additional costs, which I think is awesome. And they have a class for every level. So if you're a beginner or if you're an expert, they have something for you. And I love the limitless class variety. So you can do on-demand cycling classes, live and on-demand strength yoga and stretch classes off the bike. You guys will seriously keep coming back for more because I do. You can experience motivation like never before with a Peloton bike. Now $400 less, go to onepeloton.com to learn more. That's O-N-E-P-E-L-O-T-O-N.com. I think sometimes it's hard to get in that mindset of being on even playing fields. I know this morning I actually watched a TikTok about a mom who owns her own business.

And she wears her baby to go to the store and get all the supplies for the business every week. And she said that her husband went to go get the supplies for their business or her business and had the baby. And everyone was so impressed by him and praising him. And she felt some kind of way because she's like, you know, moms are just expected to do it and dads just get praised for doing basic bare minimum. And Lindsay and I have talked about that before. And I think it would be cool if there was more education for dads and, you know, all the information for dads. I didn't know anything that you just said about oxytocin or anything. So I think that's a really good point. And maybe we should spread some more knowledge on that because dads should do more anyway. So it would be nice. Yes. And they're capable. They are. Most of them are capable. And hormonally, they are designed that way. It's just that we got to let nature take its course. This is a phenomenon that happens throughout the animal kingdom. And I'm not calling your partner an animal. However, these biological changes during their partner's pregnancy, this is nature's way of bringing out the nurture in the male of the species.

You see it with birds and with lions and whatever, they become more nurturing. They look out for their babies. And human men can do the same thing. There's nothing that a mom can do that a dad can't do just as well, if not better, given the opportunity. We just have to step back and give them that opportunity. I was about to say, I think that's the key part of that is giving them the opportunity to be able to do it because just by natural instinct, I think, especially for me, I thought I could do everything better. You know, I am mom, so I've got this. I can do this. You can't do this. You didn't even read any books. You read forums like you didn't have you didn't lactate. Do any of these things so you have no idea but the fact is they do. They do, but we have to stop that mindset of this is this is women's work, or this is what women are born to do. Hey, listen, I wasn't born to do it. I felt completely disconnected to the experience. It took me weeks, even months to feel like a mom. My husband, Eric, he was all over it right from the start so it just really depends on the person, but it also depends on, you know, having the opportunity to, to use your, you know, to, to use your, your innate skill set. And to let those instincts, or lack of instincts, who initially come to the surface and manifest. A little bit more about that about mothers who give birth that don't feel that natural connection because I know that it happens often and I don't think people talk about it that much. I instantly felt connected so I can't, I can't relate but I know that it does.

I was already a mom but my fourth, I did not feel connected, which is, I feel like almost weirder, because I was already a mom. But to him, I feel like his mom completely any way that you experience it is normal for you for the most part so it's bonding. And to talk about it, as if the heavens open up, and maternal love just rains upon you, and you feel, you know, angels singing. Well, I mean, for me, and, and, you know, Lindsay for you it did happen that way but for me, I pushed for three and a half hours she came out. She was crying. Her face was red and swollen, and I was like, What, this is what I did. Like, I was just relieved it was over. And so it takes time. It's not like superglue or elephant glue where you know you stick together for life. It's a process. And it's a process that can begin at birth, but may not because your baby has to be with the NICU and spend months there. It will happen, but you just have to give yourself time and grace. The only reason to be concerned is if you don't start to feel a gradual attachment. So if the weeks go by, and you're feeling a little more love every day, that's good. But if you're not, you might be suffering from a maternal mood disorder depression, where, where you're going to need some help and that's a whole different story. So doing, doing skin to skin is probably the best way to help build that bond wearing your baby is a great way and that's why I really encourage dads to wear their babies and to do skin to skin early and often, because that's the way they build bonds just like the way we build bonds. But if you're not making the attachment no matter how much you wear your baby no matter how much skin to skin you do, you've got to go get that help.

That might mean that you need a little extra something getting you to that point and it is normal and my daughter, her first son, you know, she got divorced when he was three and a half. And then, you know, or two and a half and then they spent all this time together, just the two of them and then she got married, she was pregnant, got married, and had another son. And she felt she could never connect with the second one love the second one as much as the first I hear this all the time from went through that so hard. Second son, I remember even telling I was married and I said, maybe we need to split. I'll go raise Isaac my oldest son by myself and you can take this baby and go raise him by yourself because well I didn't know what the sex was at the time but I think we'll raise this baby I will never love anyone the way I love Isaac, but I gave birth, I realized that love multiplies it does not divide. And that was something really really upsetting for me because I went through months feeling that way. And that happens all the time it happens in different ways in different moms, different circumstances, you know, some moms who who've experienced pregnancy loss, who lost a baby are afraid to love the next one they're pregnant with as much. Okay, for fear of losing again.

I mean, every time there are different circumstances, and you just have to be gentle with yourself. And when you feel you need help, go ask for that help, really important, but what you experience is so common. It happens, you know, so frequently with second kids and what I what I told them is you are going to love him just as much just in a different way. Yeah, every kid is different so you can't love them exactly the same way it's a different love for every kid. I thought about that this morning too because I'm still in a place where you know I would have more kids but also if I didn't have any more kids that would be fine. I thought about all because I have all boys so it's even like I love them all equally but so so so differently. They're just they're all they're different kids and I just love them differently so I was thinking about that this morning on the drive over here. Yeah, and there's also the other thing which I, a mom just was messaging me about that she has severe gender disappointment. So she's had, you know, her boy, and she really thought this one was going to be a girl she knew it in her heart. They did a gender reveal, it was another boy, and she just can't come to terms with it she's just like super depressed.

Again, I said, give yourself grace, let yourself processes even see this as you know a loss of that daughter, like just write her a letter and say I'm so sorry I didn't get to love you but I'm going to love your brother instead whatever it takes to get you to that place. But don't blame yourself don't judge yourself don't shame yourself because these are valid feelings you've got to, you've got to validate them for yourself so that you can process them and move on. I agree with that. I guess I can never understand gender disappointment just from a religious aspect. Yes, yes, I get that. And so, but I do know that that is a real thing and I've heard of people in my personal life that have been super disappointed and I've just never been able to understand that because I think that everything happens exactly the way that it was designed to happen. And, you know, maybe you were meant meant to be a mom of boys or maybe you were meant to be a mom of girls. So I just, I don't understand that but I do know that so many people experience. Yeah, and, and, you know, having those religious beliefs doesn't exclude the possibility that you might find yourself feeling that way.

And that doesn't mean your religious beliefs aren't strong or anything like that. It just means that these things happen in your head. And you need to process them you can't just like deny deny deny access to feelings that conflict with what you expect, or what your, you know, your religious beliefs dictate so it's really really important to give yourself a great if it happened, and it might not happen at all. But I don't I don't want moms who feel that way to feel like they're less than or that they've done something terrible because you can't always control what goes on in your mind and you always feel oh I should be so grateful I should be so grateful and yes absolutely. The only thing is, if sometimes it happens, sometimes it happens. I know that we're running a bit over time but I experienced a little bit of loss, once I had Jackson, not being able to control everything, knowing that he was in me. And I don't know if either of you experienced that but it's something hard to explain. I felt like I was less in control. Yeah. For sure, not that you're really truly in control when a baby's inside of you because any number of things can happen, but you're right, they're safe in your womb. And then they come out and you worry about absolutely everything and especially for a first baby you worry about everything you're like you, you know those jokes about standing over the bassinet watching to see if they're breathing.

Oh my god that happens in real life every day I did it everybody does it. So you do feel stressed out by that, you know that that feeling that this baby is so vulnerable and was so safe inside your womb and now is, you know this out in the world. There's all these risks and dangers and how do I protect my baby and it's an adjustment. So we have another listener question. What important expectations can moms going from one to two children have and how to navigate jealousy when adding a child to the family. Oh my goodness that that's one of the top questions that I hear. And again, part of it is you have to understand that you will love your second one as much as your first and you will love them differently and that you can't necessarily divide your attention. Like a pie, you know in in two perfect pieces or in Ford, perfect pieces like it's going to be messy sometimes when you try to divide that pie. But the, the, the example that I always use, and it's really important to have perspective when you're trying to prevent jealousy in a second child.

It's like if your partner one day just came to the front door with another woman just out of the blue and said guess what honey this is our new wife, and we're all going to live together and we're going to love each other and we're going to be so happy together and we're going to be a family together. And isn't she cute, and you would probably say, nay, nay, not buying what you're selling so if you think about it just, it seems extreme but if you think about it from a toddler's perspective, or even a five year olds perspective, who has been the center of the universe your universe your lap your shoulder your breath for all of this time and all of a sudden you bring in another one of them. And I would like them to say, Oh, fine, that's great. Well, I love sharing my mommy. They might, they might be super excited they might be, you know, super nurturing Emma was, but they also might say, not buying what you're selling. She was telling me the other day that her, her two year old keeps saying baby back, like wanted to bring them back to the hospital. And, and you're like, Oh my God, you don't mean that but guess what they do mean that and it's okay to have those feelings. You need to make sure you respect those feelings and validate those feelings. But there are a couple other tricks that are really quickly getting your older child, a doll that they can control. That's their baby to love on or to throw if they feel like, you know, they got to work out their feelings. Some baby they can hold and change and do all those things with practice on, you know, I showed Lennox how you support the head and all this kind of stuff so they feel, they feel like the big kid on campus, reinforcing all the big kid

things that they can do that a baby can't do toddlers are really competitive so you say babies can't eat ice cream, you can eat ice cream, babies can't go down the slide, you can go down the slide. They're saying you're acting like a baby, because the baby's getting all the attention, those are the things that you can do ahead of time. But also remember that the your older child does need more attention than the baby does the baby's going to get fed rocked change they cry they get what they need, but that toddler needs your one on one attention, more than the baby does. Prioritize that. It doesn't mean everything's going to go completely smoothly but if you prioritize those routines that are important to your older child like bedtime stories and bath and all of those things as much as you possibly can so that they know that the more things have changed in their lives the more they are staying the same. And that's comfort they get consistent comfort comes from consistency and routines and rituals and if you build those into your, your, the older siblings life that helps immeasurably. That makes sense. Great advice.

I got plenty more where that came from. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us this has been so fun. My pleasure. Thank you. So, yeah. Do you have anything that you want to mention before we go. New books, new projects, anything you want to shout out. I got lots of projects that you can, you can always get in touch with me at at Heidi Murkhoff. Like I said, I answer all the questions I get on Instagram, Facebook, even Twitter. And yeah, you can catch up with me anytime you'd like. And let's see what else. No, my only advice that I always need to say is stop and smell the babies. You think it's going to be forever. And as they say the days are long, but the years fly by and let me tell you I found that out the hard way so babies don't smell that sweet forever so

that's all the more they are. Thank you. Okay, thanks guys. Bye. Bye.