Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 193: Hunting Predators, Shocking Moments, and Theories Galore with Chris Hansen

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

This week on Coffee Convos, Kail and Lindsie are joined by journalist and host of several TV shows including To Catch A Predator Chris Hansen. Being fans of his shows, Kail and Lindsie want to know all the details about filming these types of programs. Chris talks about how To Catch A Predator got started and what the investigations were like. He discusses the process of working with local authorities and how some times were easier than others. Chris also talks about some of the cases that have stuck with him since filming, including one situation that left everyone speechless. Kail and Lindsie also talk to Chris about some famous true crime cases they have discussed in the past, including the trial of Casey Anthony and the killing of JonBenét Ramsey. Chris talks about his experience with both cases, and gives his theories on to what happened. And Kail and Lindsie volunteer their services for future investigations!    This episode was sponsored by: Chime, Skylight Frames, Ring, & Peloton  Music by Nathaniel Wyvern. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License.

Good morning. Welcome to Coffee Combos. Oh my gosh, your hair looks so cute. Thanks. I did it myself. I am impressed, Gil. Very impressed. I really appreciate that. I was feeling good. It was like it's Monday. I've been looking forward to this interview all weekend. So I felt like I should get myself together today. Yes. Especially because I'm about to talk shit. Oh, okay. Well, you should always look good when you're talking shit. You can't be ugly in talking shit. No, we can't be ugly in talking shit. That's for sure. So, okay, I'm going to put my phone like right here in this plant so that we can get what we can for MTV. Dead. Okay. I have it in a plant right now, so. Is the plant faux or is it? No, it's real. It's a real, it looks like a pineapple almost,

actually. I forgot I was doing this part of it. So I have so much to tell you right now. Well, tell me. I mean, don't leave anything out. Hold back. Don't hold back, ma'am. There we go. Report. Okay. All right. So I was supposed to be filming for Teen Mom today, and I texted you over the weekend and was like, how do you feel about this? Agreed, cool, whatever. Yesterday got this random call from Chris's mom, which I haven't talked to her since last year. So I was like, this is not normal. See, Lux. Lux is like, there's something clearly wrong. Like, I don't want to say too much because I don't want to put his business out there, like his medical stuff, but I was like, something was very wrong. So I was like, this isn't okay.

So I email Chris twice, call him four times and I'm like, I am now making the executive decision to come get him because you're not responding and I'm not waiting for a response. Text his mom and I'm like, I'm on my way. I'm taking him to urgent care. Get to, first of all, they live an hour away. Get to the mom's house. Lux is there. Chris shows up. Creed is nowhere to be found. Why are you separating them when we are supposed to have visitation at your mom's house? Take Lux, go to the ER or go to the urgent care. Chris then is in the parking lot with Creed. Creed also has the same thing that Lux has. Why, when you noticed what was happening, did you not A, call me to, I don't know,

for us to decide together that something was going on, something was clearly wrong, or B, decide, make an executive decision to take them to urgent care and have me meet you there. Third, with medical stuff, both parents should always be involved, like regardless of where they're at. Both parents should be informed. They should know what's going on. So at least there can be a conversation about what's about to transpire. So when we get to urgent care, Chris tells me, I see Lux Creed and I'm like, what the fuck, like literal, what the fuck? He's like, oh, I'm going to take him in to get seen too. And it's like, when did this happen? And he was like, I don't know, a couple of days ago.

Like a couple of days ago, as in like when? He said Friday, he thinks Friday, which is weird to me because so our son has had a fever over 100 and hasn't been eating and is very fatigued. And you're just now having him seen because I'm making a big deal about Lux. I didn't even know there was anything wrong with Creed and you couldn't inform me and let me know. So we get to the urgent care and the doctor's like, Lux is fine. You know, he does have, you know, whatever he has, plus he has this. So we're going to treat him accordingly. But Creed, she's like, however, he has a fever over 100 and babies this age with what they have can go downhill quickly. So she's like, I am going to have you guys transported to the ER nearby.

Kale, what were you, were you by yourself at this point? Like was Chris there? Well, Chris is just chilling, doing the question and answer on Instagram. Wait, he was doing a Q&A in the parking lot? In the waiting room. Everyone set me screenshots and it's like, but this is a man that wants 50-50 when you cannot even tell me, like, if I was to describe to you, I'll tell you, like I didn't send Lux to school today, just based on how his face looks. I'll send you a picture. I will not say exactly what it is, but I'm talking like, I would not want him around kids just based on how his face looks. And you did not think to take them to the doctor. You did not think to call me and say,

hey, Kale, do you think we should take them? Because fevers are iffy with creed. So like, you know, they're going to say rotate Tylenol, Motrin for, you know, 48 hours or whatever that is. So like, watch it. But he had so many other symptoms and he had the exact same thing that Lux had that I don't understand, like where the disconnect was. And I don't know, like, if his mom was like, actually like trying to like, let me know, like, Hey, this is going on. That's why I'm FaceTiming you. Like, I don't ever talk to you. But she also was not concerned. And she was like, Oh, it's just this, like I had it too. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So that's my drama. That's my tea. You know, this is the same man that wants 50 50 custody, but can't even take the kids to the

ER when they clearly need to be seen. Furthermore, you're staying at another home. He has, you know, his second baby mom or whatever, he's staying with her with creed. Allegedly. Back up. Back up. Cheers. He's having another baby and he's been staying with her with creed, I guess. And Lux is staying with his mom. And then when, but he didn't think I would connect the fucking dots. But when I show up at your mom's house to get Lux and Creed's not there, where is he then? Because he's not staying the night with Chris with Chris's mom. You're in several contempt support at this point. Oh, my, but I'm the problem. I'm the villain. I'm the drama. Kail is the villain. Right? Wait, I'm so nosy. When, when is this baby happening next month?

Oh, wow. So like very far along. Yeah. Do you know if it's a boy or girl? Are we as far as I know, it's a boy. Oh, wow. Wow. How do you feel? Oh, I don't care. It's like, if you want to be with her and like you want to spend time with her cool, like that's fine. But have her go to your mom's house because that's what the order says. And why are you separating the kids? They have the same dad and I would really prefer if they were spending time together. There's no reason for you to drop one off at the moms and go to the girlfriends with the other. Just keep them together. Like if you're going to drop one off, drop both off. You know what I'm saying? And you can go be with her or have the girlfriend go to your mom's house because as far as I'm, if she goes into labor,

like let's not even talk about that. Like if she goes into labor, you now have to get creed up anyway and take him to your moms. So why not just stay at your moms or leave the kids at your moms? Like that's where they are supposed to be. Wait, what you just said is so interesting. I would love to know people who have multiple children and divorce or just like custody situations if you prefer for them to stay together or if it's okay for them to separate because I do know that when I was growing up, my brother and I were always together. Like we never were separated outside of when my parents initially went through custody. I think that my mom had my brother for a period of time and my dad had me. But outside of that, I feel like it would be super normal for the kids

to be together. Like it's a lot of transitions to go from your house with all four boys being together and then go somewhere else to like half time be with their sibling and then the other half time they're either with like the grandmother or the dad and the other one's not there. That's a lot of, I totally understand. Like sometimes, you know, maybe grandma and Lux want to do something together or like grandma might only have one of them because they're going to do something together. But like on a regular basis, it's weird. Yeah. Like and it's just not, I mean, it literally states in the order that he, I have to expressly agree to him staying the night with the kids other places. Is, do you have like a morality clause in your thing? Like or when you went through

divorce with Harvey, did you guys have a morality clause where like no one could be around your kids for a certain period of time that you were dating? I've always wanted to ask you this. I don't think that's in there. Yeah, we have that. I wish I had that. Not only for them, but for me as well. Like at least I would have to be held to the same standard. Like I couldn't be able to like talk shit and then it's not the same for me. You know what I mean? Yes. I feel like moms sometimes are so hypocritical about stuff because I'm the mom. So I can do X, Y and Z. I want to do, but like you can't do what you want to do. Right. I try not to. I mean, I'm not saying it never happens, but you know, we went through all of our custody stuff. I had someone come out,

check out his mom's house, check out my house. She didn't check out girlfriend's house and girlfriend was pregnant at the time or ex-girlfriend or baby mama, whatever. Just be honest. Like if you're going to bring the kids there, that is okay. I do not want to be with you. I know that she does my son's hair. Like I know I'm not dumb. Just be honest about it. She should have had the evaluator go. He should have had the evaluator go there as well. So we could be like, okay, this checks off everything off the list. You don't have to lie to me. Like I'm not in a place where I don't care anymore. I would never try to get back with you. I would never try to interfere with your relationship, but like just be honest because then we don't have these problems. I mean,

what it would take, $1,700 and a private investigator to go follow you and be there and figure it out. And now there's my solid proof. Like I've already done it once. I'll do it again. You know what I'm saying? So it's just kind of like, just update the court, update me, talk to me about it. I'm going to say yes, but you need to talk to me. You need to have a conversation and be honest with me about it. And furthermore, what the fuck is she doing? Like she's not encouraging you to take the kids to the doctor. Clearly there was something wrong. It was on my kid's face. Like now I question both of you. Now I question both of y'all and your mom because none of you thought that this was a big deal and didn't even call me. I literally cussed out Joe for not telling me about

a headache that Isaac was complaining about. Do you think that, do you think that they thought that it would like go away by the time you saw them and like maybe that's why they didn't say anything? Yes. Like they thought it was just like something that was like quick and wouldn't go away. Probably. Oh yeah. If you knew what the mom told me she thought it was, you would be like, what the fuck? I'm going to send you the screenshots because you're going to be like, what the fuck? Oh my gosh. So wait, all of this is going on and what were you doing on Thanksgiving? Like what was happening? On Thanksgiving. I thought it was my holiday with the kids. It wasn't. So I had to swallow that. That was a hard pill to swallow for me because I was

wrong. So I dropped the kids off at the at the Wawa. At this point, Wawa should fucking sponsor me at the Wawa with Chris and I went home and I was in bed and I ate Kraft mac and cheese and dino nuggets and it was a grand old time. I watched the ID channel and then around maybe like three, I decided I was going to go to Natalie's house and I ate over there and it was a good time and then I went home. I love that. I love that for you. I talked about this on the Southern Sea last week, but this is a relevant question for anybody. Yeah. Are you Kraft or are you Velvita? I'm Kraft, 100% Kraft. Just give me all like powdered cheese. It's fine, but Velvita is literally plastic. So. But how? Like I don't, it's literally like liquid gold. I don't like it.

Squeeze it out of the pack. You're like, oh my god, this is going to be so fucking good. It's about to hit. No, no. Yes. So you, have you always been, have you even had Velvita? Yeah, my mom made it for me a lot as a child and I think that's why I like loathe it. Like I'm just like, I always wanted the Kraft. I love that you had Kraft mac and cheese and dino nuggets for Thanksgiving. Thank you. And really, it was a great spread. Every time we have dino nuggets, Jackson's always like. He's like, is Kale, does Kale know we're having dino nuggets? Yeah, you should show Kale that we're having dino nuggets. I'm like, I'm pretty sure that she's aware of what they look like at this point. I love them as much as my kids love them. It's fine.

And by the way, I'm drinking a Lani. I knew I could tell by the top, is it the blueberry one? Is it protein or is it energy? It's energy. I love it. Yeah, they're so good. I actually left some at my boxing gym. I haven't been to the gym in two weeks, probably three weeks. I'm going to start back tomorrow. I haven't been in forever. And that's so not like me, right? Yeah. Yeah, I just haven't had time. Like I've been at same other stuff. And it's like, where's the time gone? Absolutely so excited to talk to Chris Hansen today. But I do want to tell you guys about something super important, which is chime. When you're online checking your account balance and it's running low, the last thing you want to do is get an overdraft fee. And I know that

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and doesn't affect your credit score at all. Get started today at chime.com slash combos. That's chime.com slash combos banking services provided by and debit card issued by the bank corp bank or stride bank and a members FDIC spot me eligibility requirements apply overdraft only applies to debit card purchases and cash withdrawals limit starts at $20 and may be increased up to $200 by chime chime member overdraft fees savings based on eligible members use of spot me verse $33 average overdraft fee overdraft fee database on bank rate checking account survey and CRL June 2020 overdraft fees report. Well, we need to do an update on Brian laundry while we're here. Yes. So I need to know your feelings about this. I saw it come up on CNN. And for

those of you who have followed the Brian laundry Gabby potato case, which has been pretty much the entire world. They did all topsy reports did reveal that he died by suicide from a gunshot wound to the head and his attorney for the entire family, I guess is who he represents told CNN that. And I have a lot of feelings about this. I have a lot of feelings about this. Tell me what your feelings are. I feel like the family knew that he was guilty. He knew he was guilty. And they all knew like developed this plan of him like doing this, or like it would maybe it was his plan and then they maybe couldn't talk him out of it. And so they helped him. So I think because I had read a lot of different things that had just surfaced and I don't again

want to come on here and be a conspiracy theorist, you know, whatever. But I think commentary is okay. And I read a lot of stuff that was talking about how it was very unsure right now with the FBI, other charges for other people that are involved. So I don't know how much validity there is to that. And the US Attorney's Office had said that they weren't going to make like any further comments about it. So I just feel like if this was the closed deal, we know how he died. The books closed. I feel like there would be like more closure to this than, does that make sense? Yeah, wholeheartedly makes sense. Wholeheartedly believe that. I just feel like there's way more to this than anyone wants to talk about when they want to. Yeah. And I just also, I can't I can't

I can't let go of the fact that his parents were able to go like exactly to where he was. Because they probably had like his coordinates. There's something very, very odd about that. And do you remember seeing on the news, I know at one point like you would stop following it because it just got like so crazy. But they had this bag that had this notebook they had supposedly been found. I would love to know like was there a suicide note in there? Was there a gun case in there? If there was a gun missing, like why didn't we know about this before? And who was it registered to? Yeah, always have it. Did he go home and get it? Whose name is it in? Yes. And the attorney said that the parents had discussed several times that there was a great possibility that

their son had died by suicide. Oh, really? Yeah. So I'm just like, okay, so if they if they feel like that, there was so much money that was spent looking for for him at that Carlton Reserve. Yeah. People keep saying, oh, his body wasn't there all this time. People also have to remember that during the time that they were searching it, it was completely underwater. And so when his body was found, the area had like dried up at that point. So I think a lot of people are trying to make it seem like his body was like placed there. And I don't believe that I do believe that it was underwater for a period of time. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that his body was placed there. Yeah, maybe because they were familiar with that area, they knew that that area flooded at some

at some points. Yes, you know, like it wasn't the first time they had ever been there. And you know, what else was interesting to me, because when his body was found, and we were talking about the dental records and how the dental records match, you know, it was a match. I thought that we would never hear anything else about it. I thought it was going to be like one of those weird, like unsolved cases, like we would never know anything. And now we know all of this information. And I would just love to know what people think, like, I want to know what Chris Hansen thinks. You do? Yeah, I also do. Because I was like binging killer instincts over the weekend, and just like rewatching a bunch of stuff. And I want to know what he thinks about it.

You also feel like stuff like this in relationships, like I think a lot of people are so caught up in the fact of the small details of this case and like following every move of everything. But I think a lot of people are just like forgetting about the fact that like this started, in my opinion, as a domestic violence incident. And likely wasn't the first time that it happened. You can just turned bad. And I think that he knew that quickly, like that was not I mean, when you look at the grand scheme of things, they weren't even on the road very long. I know. And all of the things that just like weirdly add up was was he one of those people that like was pre planning some of this and like they had been fighting and carrying on and he knew that

it would eventually come to this or was it truly like a snap situation? Was it? I just feel like it's so unfair, not for us as a public, because it's really not our business. But I guess the media has made it our business. But for Gabby's family, like for them to have answers, I think it is so unfair for them to just like not know anything. Right. Like a timeline. Was it quick? Was it not because I think just like sitting with that is torture enough to like be unknown. You don't know how much she suffered or how little she suffered. And then your imagination is just kind of left to fill in the blanks. And that's got to be so, so, so, so difficult. Yes. So wait, tell me before Chris gets on here, you're watching Killer Instinct. I was watching Killer Instinct.

I watched, I listened and watched his podcast interview with your mom's house with Christina P. I was, I looked up his book because I actually didn't know that he wrote one and I found out in another interview. So I was like, okay, let me get that. So I was ordering that. And I just have so many questions. Like I saw all the listener ones, all the listener questions, but I was like, while I was binging, I came up with so many more questions that I was like, okay, I don't even know if we're going to have time for everything. Like I'm so excited to do this. And I just have like, there's just so much to unpack here. Like there's so much. I just wish that I could catch a predator. So maybe he'll let us tag along for a spoiler alert. There is like

some sort of like reboot happening. Wait, what? That's what he said. That's what he said. Ask him about it. I don't know if it's like a full reboot or if it's like maybe like a special or whatever. But like, I don't know, we solve any crime by dinner time, we're basically Mary, Kate and Ashley. So I just feel like we should be given the chance to at least like do a ride along. And I was going to say, like, I'll be the bitch and go get all the Starbucks like for the whole crew. Like I don't care as long as I'm there, I'll get the Duncan, you get the Duncan, I'll get the Starbucks and well, it'll be great. I love it. And for those of you who are listening who don't know about Chris Hansen, he is an investigative journalist, best known for his work on

Dateline NBC's to catch a predator. For nearly four decades, Chris Hansen has been on the front lines of crimes, enterprise reporting and breaking news all over the world. Hansen has also been a host and correspondent for this indicated program crime watch daily, as well as killer instinct on ID and Dateline NBC. And Chris's investigations are responsible for exposing some 400 men attempting to meet children online for sex. Hansen has been honored with 10 Emmy awards, five Edward R Murrow awards, as well as excellence in reporting by the overseas press club. I am just like, amazing away. Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to know like how he was able to do all this. And did it come from connections in TV that like allowed him to be able to have this kind

of background? Or is he just like this cool? Well, where do we get started? I don't know. Like, we need to get started with the fact that I'm definitely like Dateline and chill. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. I literally have a friend. His name is Nick and his wife, they live in Michigan. And he'll literally DM me and be like, Hey, did you watch the new episode on Dateline? And I'm like, he'll be like, Hey, like this one's on. Did you see it yet? And I'm like, Oh my god. But his he wrote the book, I'll let him tell you guys more, but he wrote the book about like the entire experience. And so I want to see if anything has really changed or if he could elaborate more because I believe the book was written in like 2007. So it's been some time and he's done so

much more and he is joining us right now. So I'm going to let him in here right now. I know that this is a little bit off topic, but I do want to stop to mention that the holidays are coming. They are right around the corner. So get you skylight frame. This is the perfect gift for that, especially for someone who lives in another state or someone who you don't see that often. You can add pictures, pre upload them and then send the skylight frame. It's such a cute idea. I got one last year. And I, I honestly think I should send them to like my, my friends who don't live in this, in this state for this holiday season, because I always look for something new to get. And I try to just keep it the same. So this might be that perfect

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earlier. You're going to freaking love this. I promise you can give it as a birthday gift, a Christmas gift, Hanukkah, whatever holiday you celebrate. This is literally perfect. And it's so simple. I told you I'm not tech savvy and this is it. So now as a special offer, you can get $10 off your purchase of a skylight frame when you go to skylightframe.com and enter our code coffee. That's right to get $10 off your purchase. You can get a skylight frame, go to skylightframe.com, enter code coffee. That's S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T-F-R-A-M-E.com, use promo code coffee. Hello, how are you? Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. I'm Kale and this is my co-host, Lindsay. Hey, Lindsay. We are so excited to have you on Coffee Thomas podcast.

Thanks for having me. Chris, are we going to catch a creditor today? We are. I think it's you based upon that. You look like you're hiding out there in that comfy posey there. Yeah, for sure. That's so funny. So we were just talking about your book that you had written. I didn't know you had when I listened to your interview on your mom's house with Christina P and Thomson. Oh, cool. Yeah. So I was catching up on everything and it was a really great interview. So we just have so many questions for you. I binge watching killer instincts over the weekend because I didn't have my kids. They were all with their dads. So it was a killer instinct weekend for me. Excellent. So I have a favor to ask of you guys too. Sure. So Gabriel and I

do a podcast for Patreon, our Patreon channel. So we want to have you guys on that at some point. Oh, absolutely. We will. Cool. I knew it. We'll catch a creditor there too. Yes, we will catch all the creditor. We'll all team up. So that'd be awesome. So you, where do you want to start? Because we have so much that we just want to unpack here. Wherever you want. I've got coffee. I've got some seltzer water. I've got the day off. So I'm rocking roll. The Christmas decorations in the background. I know how nice is that. That's great. Looking tree. I did it all myself, you know. I love that. He does not look like you did that, Chris. No, I did. I did. That's Gabriel. Watched. I should get some credit for watching that thing. Yeah, of course. You were there.

You were there, you know, hanging out. I was there. I attended the fire. Cape man duties, you know. Right, right. So, Chris, mom, tell us about like how you became so cool to be a part of Dateline. Like, we are Dateline and Chill. Yeah, we love Dateline. Well, you know, I started out in local news. Actually, I started out in college doing radio and newspaper a little bit and then was really lucky while still at Michigan State University to get a job at the NBC station as a reporter part-time. Well, I was going to school and I made like, you know, 495 an hour going to city council meetings and chasing fires and doing whatever I could do for 39 hours a week. And so when I graduated, they may be full-time and Lansing

was a great experience because it was a state capital, big university there. I worked for great people, a lot of fun. And so it all really started there and went on to Tampa, was a reporter in Detroit for about 10 years and then in 1993 got the opportunity to go to NBC in New York. And that's where it really began, I guess, from a network level, from a national perspective was, you know, being exposed to these big stories, these breaking stories and having the ability and having a team to really assemble so we could go after these big stories. And I had a chance to pitch these big ideas like to catch a predator. And, you know, I did that for 20 years and it's allowed me now, the capital to go do all these other projects, including new predator investigations,

which are underway, the podcast, which is, you know, doing very well and a lot of other television opportunities that we're, you know, going to be able to announce after the first year. Were you always interested in true crime or was it your experience in news and things like that, like you were saying, you know, having access to break huge stories that gained your interest? Because I always, yeah, I was always interested in crime and investigative. And I guess looking back at probably the seeds of that were sown because I grew up a mile and a half from where Jimmy Hoffa was last seen and presumably kidnapped at a restaurant in Bloomfield Township Michigan. And I became fascinated with the Jimmy Hoffa story. And I used to ride my bike up there

to the crime scene and the yellow tape and the FBI agents and the local police and the local reporters from Channel 7 Action News and the network correspondents were there. And, you know, I was in high school at the time and I really got bit by the buck. And so when I went away to college, I signed right up for the radio station. And that's, you know, besides hauling drywall and working as a baker's apprentice for four years in high school, you know, it's the only job I've ever had is to be a newsman, you know, and to put together compelling or what I hope are compelling television shows. Sure. I also did radio TV film in school. And I got great training, isn't it? It is. You learn so much. Yeah, I did the school newspaper. That was one of my one of my little

things. It wasn't paid or anything. I just did it for the experience. But we asked our listeners on Instagram for questions that they wanted to have. And this is also a question of mine and Lindsay's. Has there is there one specific case that has stuck with you, whether it be, you know, killer instinct or to catch a predator? Is there one specific one that you has just stuck with you? Well, there's so many, you know, from killer instinct, I think it was Nightmare on Imperial Avenue, which was a story we did in this first season of Killer Instinct on ID, where we profiled a series of killings in one home in Cleveland on Imperial Avenue. And this is, you know, around the time of the the other big case in Cleveland, where the three girls were

kept against their will for so many years. And through that, I've kind of gotten close to those survivors as well. But 11 women were murdered in that case. And the one who got away, who ended up being the key witness, agreed to do an exclusive interview with me. And it was one of the most compelling survivors interviews I have ever done because she was able to get out of this madman's house. And on the way she saw a headless body of another victim. And it was so chilling to hear her first person account to this. And her trying to figure out step by step going down the stairs, how she was going to escape this. And the fact that she was brave enough to sit down and tell me that story was really, really amazing. And so many, you know, it's hard to assign,

you know, a number to these things. I mean, obviously, 9 11 was compelling. Oklahoma City bombing was compelling. We're looking at, you know, 25 years later after that. You know, the Peter Nygaard investigation, the series that we have out now on Discovery Plus, just so, so disturbing that one human being could get away with this sort of predatory behavior for five decades. The Onision and real life story also on Discovery Plus. And so many of the things that we're digging in now, you know, for future stories, it's never ended. And I guess what drives me to do it is, you know, my sense of curiosity and the fact that, you know, I have been able to assemble, you know, a catalog of sources in law enforcement and in around law enforcement over

the 40 years I've been doing this that allow me access to tell these stories in a way that few other people can. On your mom's house interview, or with Christina Pete, you said law enforcement wasn't always working with you, though, right? So for to catch a predator, at least in the predator cases, yeah, in the beginning, we the first two investigations we did, right? And we really didn't know what was going to happen. But the first one in Long Island, we did it and 17 fellow surfaced in two and a half days. And one of the cases was prosecuted by the FBI. But that's not the way the investigation was set up. We wanted to see if guys were willing to travel to a home in Bethpage Long Island after a conversation with a decoy from perverted justice, if they would come

to the house to try to have sex with a child. And they did. And we did it a second time outside of Washington DC. And 20 some guys showed up there. And in that case, you know, we went to the Fairfax County police. And they did prosecuted them with the cases. The FBI prosecuted one of the high profile cases, the rabbi, David K. And at that point, we heard from the Riverside County Sheriff's Department of California, and we realized collectively, and I realized as a journalist that we needed to change the template here, right? It was socially irresponsible to do this sort of an investigation and let these guys, you know, off into the wind, you know, doing the two step toward an umbrella. It was journalistically and from a television production standpoint,

it was unfulfilling to the viewer to let these guys walk away without some sort of apprehension or police involvement. And I took some heat from that. And we're very careful to have an ethical wall between our team as journalists and law enforcement. But some old school journalists took issue with the fact that we work too closely with law enforcement. And I understand that. But I was then willing to take that heat and am today willing to take that heat as we have, you know, adapted our methodology in these investigations. I'm going to imagine this. When we first did the predator investigations, we merely had decoys from perverted justice in chat rooms on AOL and yahoo. That was it. That was it. Right. Today, you know what's out there.

You know, you know, especially with young kids that the the explosion of social media platforms upon which predators can approach children and combine that with a pandemic where more kids are online for more time than ever before. Predators know that parents are busy trying to do their own thing. They may be in the same house, but they don't know what the kids are doing 24 seven. Right. Do you feel like that makes it harder to catch people online? Or do you think it makes it easier because they're more open and they're online? Well, I think I think I think it evens out. I mean, I think it's it's more challenging in that there are more platforms upon which this illicit activity is occurring. But I also think we've been able to elevate our ability to catch

these people because of our technology. And we used to have to back load a trailer into a house with a whole control room. I mean, today we can do these things with iPads and, you know, miniature remote cameras. So in the people we use, you know, we've changed, you know, perverted justice isn't in existence anymore. So oftentimes we rely upon law enforcement decoys. And that seems to take, you know, one of the difficult steps out of the process too. So that's what we've been doing in the recent investigations. Are you guys we're going to take a quick break to talk about one of our partners, the Ring alarm security system. And in all seriousness, if you do not have a Ring alarm security system,

you definitely have to check it out. I'm not talking about the Ring doorbell, which is great. And I use that too. But they also make a whole security system. And I recently just added the Ring alarm security system at my house, because I'm at home all the time by myself. And then when I'm not by myself, it's just me and Jackson. So I'm no longer terrified at night from every little noise that I hear. I feel so safe because my Ring alarm lets me know if any window or door is open, or if any motion is detected. So whether I am home or away, I know that my home is safe. And also if the alarm goes off, a professional monitoring team will contact me right away and dispatch authorities. And the best part is it is super easy to install. I did

it all by myself and the app walked me through everything. And it was up and running in just minutes. And plus, it is so much cheaper than other companies. So for what they charge for one month, we can get an entire year of Ring alarm with professional monitoring. With all of that being said, if you want peace of mind during the holidays, while you're traveling, or if you just want to feel protected going into 2022, say no more Ring alarm can make that happen. It also makes an awesome gift for your girlfriends. If you have man friends, or definitely a family member, if you have a lake house or another home that would possibly need flood and fire sensors, which will notify you if anything goes wrong, if you aren't there, which unfortunately happens a

lot, they also have that feature. So this holiday season, you can deck the halls, walls, doors, and windows with the best deals of the year on the award winning Ring alarm. Go to ring.com forward slash combos to get a great deal on a Ring alarm security kit today. That's ring.com forward slash combos. Have you ever been afraid of a predator that you've caught or if not afraid maybe nervous that they would retaliate? We're getting close to 500 of these guys now. There has been some retaliation, mostly online attacks, misinformation campaigns, but that happens. If you're in my business for 40 years, somebody's going to try to gin something up on you. It's just the nature of the beast, that you're in the media limelight.

There have been a couple moments, face to face, where I thought this could spill the wrong way and I'm out of position. Where's my security guy? We had one incident in Flagler Beach, Florida, where a guy was a police officer and we had shut down the operation for the evening, and he showed up later. We couldn't get there to turn everything on, so the cops ended up arresting him on a traffic stop. Turned out he had a.38 loaded in his pocket. In the car, he had a shotgun, a semi-automatic assault rifle, another handgun, and some 800 rounds of ammunition. You worry, okay, a guy comes in with a gun. We're pretty good about detecting who has the ability to have a gun. We've had instances where we said, okay,

this is too dangerous because of the firearms issue. We're going to let the police officers or the sheriff's department take them off before they come in, and we've done that too. There's no need. There's enough television in this. There's enough that we can produce without taking unnecessary risks. The thing is edgy, and that's why people watch it. If it was easy, everybody could do it. There's a reason why it's so compelling. It's become so iconic is because we figured out a way to do something where we take people inside the commission of a felony. You watch it happen, and the guy gets caught virtually live on TV. It's not easy to put all that together, but we managed to do it over the years. Lindsay and I were saying before you

came on here that we would love to assist. I'll go get the coffees if I can be included. I'll do the Starbucks run, but I definitely want to be there. Are you guys thinking about rebooting the show? We are. It's already being done. We've shot some, and we're in the midst of meetings to determine exactly where that's going to go, but it's happening. It's so hard now because the cable and the streaming services, you don't know where people are watching at this point because there's so many options. I have Lindsay and I are guilty of having all the streaming services because we got to have our true crime. We do it here too. We operate two households because I've got to be in New York for certain aspects of what I do for a living. We have an

apartment in the city, and we have a home in Michigan. You try to get all things to all people at all places, and it is. We've gone to streaming here because we can get virtually everything we need that way. It's a real decision as to where we want to agree exclusively to put this content on because there are people who know this series because of YouTube. Oh, that's true. I mean, that's a reality. Is that where you distribute? I put some of it up on the YouTube channel just as a sample of some of the investigations we've done in the last year and already 2 million views. That's exciting. You know people are going to want to see it. That's not the question. It's doing it in the absolute best way and having it

on the absolute best place. Right. Well, we are basically like Mary, Kate, and Ashley. We can solve any crime. Listen, females with podcasts can solve anything. Oh, yeah. Well, then it's happened, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's looking at how many crimes have been solved because of podcasts and their following. I mean, we, on Predators I've Caught with Chris Hansen, where we go back and look at some of these cases, we have found out amazing things about some of the guys I've caught. And we started, my producers, Joe Garner and Steve Cohen, said, you know what? We ought to just ask people to send their questions in, but do it and have them send in an audio file. And we did it and became so popular that we ended up doing an entire episode

just with people asking questions. Oh, yeah. And they have questions. Oh, yeah. And good ones, too. So, and as we ramp up for the 2.0 of Predator, it's great to see all this interaction. And you know, we hear a lot about the Predators I've caught just from podcasts. Where are they now? Where are they? Where are they? We do. Where are they now? And remember that in the heat of this, you know, for the most part, you know, looking back, I'm pretty satisfied with each individual interview, the hundreds that we've done. Like, given how fanatic and crazy it is, how paper is being slid under my eyes at the last minute, how, you know, you're watching their hands, you're trying to think of an appropriate question, you're trying to get inside the guy's mind,

with all that going on, I think generally speaking, you know, I manage it pretty well. But you're going to miss stuff along the way. There's just no way around it. It's just, you know, you do, you know, in the case of Riverside, California, 51 interviews in three days with Predators, you're going to miss something. Right. And so this is a way to do a couple of things. It's a way to go back and say, wow, let's pick this apart. Let's tell people what was actually going on behind the scenes when this guy walked in to where is this guy today? There are some cases where these guys have rehabilitated themselves. There's some horrifying cases about guys who went on to, you know, become repeat offenders and harm other children.

And it's also a way for me to process it all because, you know, one of the most asked questions of me is, have you ever gone to therapy? That was on my list. I was going to ask you. I'll save it for when you ask it. And we can get into it because it's an important issue, and I think mental health is often overlooked in so many areas of society today. But I only half jokingly tell people that, no, I have not gone to therapy, but the podcast in a way is a bit therapeutic in terms of going back and going through these things and reliving them in my own mind and soul and dealing with it in my own way. And so it is my little therapy in a way. And I don't pretend like I'm all shot up or bind up or bothered by it all. I mean,

I've always handled dark material pretty well, I think. It's still hard. I can imagine there have been some where you've had nightmares. That was, it was on my list. Yeah. And you're absolutely right that there had been. I mean, we had a guy who walked into Fort Myers, Florida. He was the last guy on a Sunday on a three or four day investigation. And, you know, there's a rhythm to these investigations. And for this particular one, it was a bit of a relief that, okay, we're going to wrap. This is, we've gotten, you know, some incredible results. We have some amazing television. We're going to continue to create awareness and a dialogue that's never existed before. And here's the last guy. And he pulls up in his SUV. And he goes to the back driver's side

door as if he's going to get like a pizza and a six pack out of the back seat. And he reaches in and he grabs his five year old child, four or five year old child and walks his kid by the hand up the driveway into the predator house. And remember that, you know, the guys in these investigations I've worked with for years in some of the darkest corners of the world, investigations in India and Africa, you know, all throughout Europe and, you know, some heavy duty topics back in the day for Dayline. And there was a collective gasp and just, oh my God, what, you know, how do we handle this? And so he walks in with the child and I'm face to face with him. Clifford Wallach was the guy's name. I'll never forget it. And I said, look, you know why

you were here. I know why you were here. I'm not going to drag you through it in front of your toddler child. But you need to get out of here and take care of business. And oh, thanks, thanks, thanks. Yeah, never do this again. And if you're watching the police were there and the female police officer gently grabs the child and they arrest him and just things like that. But, you know, I mean, maybe there are more violent characters with more graphic criminal histories than Clifford Wallach. But that one, and I don't think he was going to expose the child to any sexual harm or danger. I think he was going to put him in the next room with a, you know, a DVD, probably, you know, while he did what he was going to do with a 14-year-old boy. But the fact

that somebody would do that is just mind boggling for me. The level of disturbing, I think, even though there could be people that are, you know, far more gruesome stories or whatever, that is just so disturbing and unsettling. Well, yeah. And, you know, again, guys were shell shocked in the production team. I mean, and these guys don't, you know, they don't get flustered. They've seen a lot of stuff in their lifetime. Go ahead, Lindsay. I read on your bio that your investigations are responsible for exposing 400 men attempting to meet children for online sex. Is that a big majority of your work? Well, I think it's really, if you look at the, you know, the 40 years of it, it's a small percent. And it's, you know, maybe five to 10 percent of my portfolio. I mean,

it's what gets the most attention, clearly all the predators stuff. But, you know, every Emmy, every overseas press club award has been for something else. And I'm okay with that. You know, at some point, and I have this conversation with, you know, my sons who are journalists and with young journalists, you know, when I talk to groups, it's like, you have choices along the way. And sometimes you're going to find a story that will define you, even though you've done so much more than that, and you'll continue to do so much more than that. So you either have to accept that and embrace it and use it for all the good that it can provide, where you spend your life running away from it, and I've decided to embrace it. Because at the end of the day, whether I'm covering

a mass murder or anything else, predator is still going to get me in the door quicker than any other reporter. If I'm in the middle of Oklahoma covering a tornado, and the sheriff's got a choice to help somebody out, he's going to help out Chris Hansen, the predator guy. It's just playing it simple. Right. I definitely... And so, you know, you harness that energy for all it is. And, you know, did it prevent me from maybe going to 60 minutes? Yeah, probably. But did I really want to do that? Or did I want to do the path that I'm on? And I'm very comfortable with the path that I'm on. I think you're doing a great job. Well, thank you. All right, you guys, we're going to take a quick break to talk about one of my favorite partners,

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include cycling, strength, yoga, bar, meditation, and more. And you never have to feel like you're working out alone on Peloton. So you can ride with coworkers and friends. You can work out with interest groups like Peloton newbies or Peloton parents or send high fives on the leaderboard. And you can get free access to the Peloton app when you purchase a Peloton bike. Your favorite classes go where you go this holiday season, you can visit one peloton.com to learn more. Try Peloton classes free for the rest of the year. New members only visit one peloton.com slash app to learn more terms apply. Peloton when your workout is a joy, it's a joy to work out. I did want to ask you, there's two questions I have. One, the difference between the men and

women because obviously on to catch a predator, it's mostly men. I don't think I've ever seen a woman on there. Never. What do you think the difference is between the mind of a man, the men who do this and women? I think and based upon every conversation I've had with a psychologist or therapist or psychiatrist who deals with people in this world, it's because the female predator, you're more likely to see the scenario of a teacher student. Lindsay and I have talked about that. Because the female predator doesn't like the anonymity, whereas the male predator gets off on it and doesn't mind this digital relationship over a webcam. In fact, a lot of the predators we find don't show up because all they want is this sexual charge, fantasy over, if they can get away

with this online, they won't get at the car and drive over. The vast majority of guys in our investigations, they get to the point where they can't stand this intermediate zone and they cross the line between fantasy and reality and the next thing we know they're knocking on our door. But in terms of female predators, we've never seen one in our investigations. And it's occurred, I write about it in the book, but it's mostly the teacher-student scenario that you see. Have you talked to the predators enough to know or maybe you talked to their therapist, psychologist, is there a link between childhood trauma and then who becomes a predator or is it kind of just a child? It can be that. And again, I'm not a therapist or I just play one on TV, but I think

based upon my experience, they break down into three categories. You've got the heavy-hitter predator, child molester, who'd be doing this, whether it was 1920 or 2020. And they're either wired this way or they've had some trauma in their childhood that makes them this way. This would be the bad little league coach, the bad Cub Scout leader, the bad whatever hanging out at the movie theater. It's a hardcore stone cold predator. Then you've got the younger guys who show up in our investigations who are 1920, 21 years old, socially inept. This is their only shot at having some sort of a sexually charged conversation with a female. They find somebody who's 13 or 14, they figure, well, this is wrong. I know it's wrong, but if it works out maybe in a couple

years, it won't look so bad. And they succumb to it. And those are probably the guys who can be fixed with probation and monitoring just a big slap in the face. Don't do this anymore. It's more, it's not Romeo and Juliet, and it could provide the same harm to a child as a 38-year-old. So it's bad, it's dangerous, it's criminal. And then you've got these guys who to me are the more interesting case studies. And these are the guys in between. These are the guys who have a propensity for this, an attraction to younger adolescent girls and boys, but probably wouldn't act upon it without the internet, without the addictive nature of the internet, without the 24 seven access, and without the anonymity. These guys wouldn't start a conversation like this face to face with

a kid, but they'll do it online because it's more opportunistic kind of opportunistic, but then it leads to this blurring of the line between fantasy and reality. And that's when you see them knocking on our door. And it's again, I've seen guys throw away careers over this. We had a guy in Petaluma, California, who was a doctor who worked for a company that was on the cutting edge of curing cancer. And here he is on a Saturday morning trying to meet a 13-year-old girl after chatting up another decoy, opposing as a young girl. And I don't know what, what are they thinking? Yeah, he's got a wife, he's got a wife who's also a physician and two daughters at home. And why does he do this? Why does Walter Bapst, a teacher with a wife and children, show up in

Riverside County, California to meet a teenage girl and claim that he's never done it before? And you know, he's, he's tortured about it. He's in his car. We can see him on the remote camera going back and forth, trying to get his wedding ring off, you know, and, and through his life away from this. That's just amazing to me that people, I mean, I'm not saying that it should happen regardless of life circumstance, but you see these things happening with people with very successful careers that took a lot of education to get there. And they're doing this type of thing, like something is very wrong. I mean, are, are they wired wrong? Like Keel said, is this a trauma? Is this what causes them to act on that? Right. And to children who can't defend themselves. I

can't. It's concerning to when you know, when you learn that these people have their own kids. I did hear you say on another interview that it's, it's not necessarily that they're always abusing their own kids. Sometimes it's just not that I shouldn't say it's just other kids, but it is other children. Well, it is. And it's, it's, and you're right. I understand where you're going with this. And that is that, you know, they compartmentalize this sort of behavior. So in other words, they'll live a totally normal life. I mean, their wife might suspect something is off in their personal life, but they, you know, they're providers, they go to work every day, and they have this secret that they keep to themselves that involves their pretend online

world. But once it crosses over into actually harming a child, you know, that's, that's not fantasy anymore. No, that's real life. And, and, you know, people will say, well, you know, you induce this or, you know, if you were out there doing these investigations, they wouldn't do it. These guys were out there. They always make the first approach. I mean, and what is going to happen when it's not me or the FBI or law enforcement or ICAC around the country, and it is a real little role. You know what happens? That child is scarred for life, life, damage. That guy got away with it, and he's going to do it again. And that we don't know how many times guys have got predators have gotten away with this because the reporting on it, because of the shame and the

embarrassment is not where it should be. You mean the reporting from the victims from the survivors? Yeah. I mean, I think it's the same goes for rape, right? For, for adults. You know, you, you get ripped to shreds on the stand. You are victim shamed. You're victim blamed. You are all the above. And so it really deters people from wanting to, to report it. Except for, yeah, absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with that. What, go ahead, Lindsay. I think I feel like you were about to say something. No, I was gonna, it was completely off topic, but we have talked so much on our show about John Benet Ramsey. Sure. And I just want to pick your brain. Like, what do you think happened? You know, I covered it in the early stages. I was out in

Boulder in interesting story. We were actually interviewing John Douglas, the FBI profiler, former FBI profiler, on a book that he was coming out with. And it just so happened that at the time of that interview, he had been retained by John Benet's family to help in the investigation of the case. And so, I mean, literally, the interview was, was, okay, send Hanson to interview John Lindsay, because you know, John, not John Lindsay, the profiler, because, you know, he covers crime, and it just so happened that it all came together at the same time to coincide with it, with the Jean Benet Ramsey case. So we do this, and he lets it slip during the interview that there was a ransom note for $189,000, whatever the number, $192,000, whatever the number was,

which was consistent with his bonus that year. And so we actually broke that story. And I don't know what to make of that case. I mean, I've watched all those shows since then. I haven't covered it in many years. And I just don't get the feeling that the dead was involved. I just don't. I don't either. I'm so glad you said that, because I also don't. And that's, that's gut, and that's not based on evidence. But I just, I just don't see it. I also don't. And I don't have any, and I'm not trying to pretend that I have some insight that I've spent time with him, or I've interviewed him or anything like that. But, but I just, my, my, my sense is that he didn't have anything to do with it. My sense is that the

kids didn't have anything to do with it. My sense is that it was something so bizarre and so random. Do you think it was an outsider? I don't. The crime scene, the crime scene was so muddled up. I mean, it was so absolutely stepped over in so many ways that I don't know that we'll ever have an answer, understand exactly what happened to the truth. And I have a hard time believing the mother did it either. I think she, I do think the mother was involved. I have a question for you. I guess, I mean, I know the theories there. I know the theory about, you know, being upset and overreacting and it being an accident and being a big effort to cover up the accident. And certainly you can't rule that out. You know, but, but I have nothing personally

that puts her in it. So what everybody's talked about is a potential scenario here. Lindsay and I cover true crime bonus episodes for our podcast. And I wanted to ask John Douglas is the proper name for the FBI profile. Not John Lindsay. Yeah, John Douglas. In the John Bonet Ramsey case, the parents Patsy and what is the dad's name? John. They retain separate lawyers. In the Casey Anthony case with Kaylee Anthony, the parents retain the same attorney. So I thought that the difference between the two was a little interesting because I feel like when you hire separate attorneys, right, that's to me, at least maybe you guys are conflicted. And there's a possibility that you guys could go head to head. Whereas the Casey Anthony case, it was the same

attorney. So they were on the same page about what they knew, the information they had. And they were aligned with wherever they stood. And so I was curious to get your opinion on that and see what you think about. Well, I think that could be explained. And again, I'm not trying to defend anybody. And I did the interview that I did interview Casey Anthony's parents for, for the mother's parents for Crime Watch daily. But Casey Anthony's parents. But you know, some of this can be explained by the fact that, you know, people of muddy and corporate CEO stature get advice from that level folks. And there would be a school of thought that everybody should have their own lawyer to protect whatever is a precaution. I don't know. I understand what you're saying. You would think

that both parents would be on the same page and have the same lawyer. That does strike me as a bit off. If I had a missing child, I don't see why I would need a separate lawyer from my spouse. Just to me, personally, it strikes me as excessive. I feel like they had a lot of resources. And I think that if they wanted to cover something up, they had the resources to do it. I think you're right. But I don't, I don't have the smoking gun or the, you know, the bloody hammer to say this is what happened. So many, I know so do I. I truly do. But it's, it's, it's really, I think it's that when you look back at how the evidence was so stepped on in that case, from the very beginning of that investigation, it's shocking. I think it was possible. Yeah, I don't, I don't think they,

I don't think they knew what they had at first. And I think they had the B team in on Christmas morning in sleepy Boulder, Colorado. It doesn't have a murder. And, you know, you had a wealthy influential member of the community, but a missing kid. And it was, it was a mess in terms of evidence from the crime scene from the very beginning. Before you came on to coffee combos, we were talking, we were giving an update on the Brian Laundry case and I'm ruling it as suicide. And I, we also wanted to get your thoughts on that. Well, I, I want to know where the gun is now and why they haven't found it in that rural area where they found his body. I mean, the alligator is not going to eat the gun. Where's the gun? I mean, I know where the gun likely came from

because there was a gun missing from the parents house when they did the inventory back in September after Brian Laundry disappeared. I, you know, I have a lot of questions for those parents. Would you interview them if they? Oh, yeah. I've listened. We've all over that case. We're, we're working on that for a long time. I'll also be the Starbucks runner for that one if you're ready. You know, that poor girl, I mean, they, they, they may have all had their issues emotionally and whatever, but it, how you could have your kid come home from a trip without the girlfriend who's essentially in your home and not have a deeper dive into, you know, where's Gabby? I just don't understand that. I think that we don't understand because there's a lot of information that we

don't know. I think that the parents have sat on a lot of information and have not been forthcoming and I think they have the answers. We just don't. I tell you what was, I thought was insightful. ABC did a piece where they used virtually every bit of the body cam footage from the police officers who responded to the domestic call on the side of the road that day. And because so much of it was used, they really didn't have a lot of other exclusive material or any, any great new information, but it gave you insight into the amount of time local law enforcement in Utah spent trying to sort this out and analyze the law and were they doing the right thing. And in the end, it was just so ironic to me that they ended up putting Brian Laundrie in protective care

and sort of leaving her the emotionally distraught one to fend for herself, which made her even more dependent on Brian Laundrie in the next days when arguably she met her demise. Do you think that it was premeditated or do you think it was a snap situation? I think it was a snap situation. And again, I don't, I don't have any particularly insight into it. It just, when you look at a domestic situation with two people who've been living in the same van for so long, when you look at the manner of death in the cause of death, strangulation, it's a very personal manual strangulation. I mean, you've got to want to try to kill somebody. It says something. I think I read something somewhere that says something

along the lines like choking or strangling someone. It's usually the biggest red flag before someone kills you. Oh yeah, absolutely. Unquestionably. Which is terrifying. And, you know, my heart goes out to them. I just wish that poor family, I mean, you have no answers. Yeah, the mother and father are in different relationships now, but they all came together as a team to speak not only for Gabby, but to speak for other missing young women who obviously have been tangled up in domestic violent situations. And it just, your heart goes out to them because all these people want are answers. They want to know, you know, they thought they're being good parents and, you know, the girl is an adult. You can't say, no, you can't go with your

boyfriend on this adventure where you're going to potentially become social media stars and create a living for yourselves. And it's an adventure. Right. You can't stop that. You can't protect your kids once they're adults necessarily the way you want to. And there should have been no harm. She was with the guy who was supposed to protect her and that ended up being the guy who killed her. Right, so sad. Kayle and I just covered this past month, Casey Anthony. I didn't know that you interviewed her parent. So what was that? There were nice people. I mean, they really, they felt betrayed by her. Understandably so. You know, and they really didn't have much of a

relationship with her, you know, since all that went down. And you got the feeling after finishing, I mean, it was an emotionally draining interview. I mean, they laid it all out there. This was probably three years ago. So yeah, yeah. And it was probably 2017, 2018. And they feel betrayed. And they don't have a relationship with her. At least they didn't at the time of the interview. And they did give me the sense that, you know, she got away with something. Yeah, I mean, I just couldn't imagine being such a pathological liar. Like, Kayle and I were talking about this, and I don't know if you see this with other creditors or people that you invulcigate, that she was so willing to just ride out her lies.

Like, you know, all the way, the one that really stands out in my mind is her employment with Universal. And like how she was so willing up until the last second until she had no other choice other than to say, like, I don't work here. She was so willing to just ride it out. Well, and the other thing that just shocked me about that case was how she seemed to enjoy the celebrity. Yes, that this crime gave her. Yeah. And it was almost like she was she was loving every moment. And I'm thinking, you're being suspected of killing your own child. Yes. And then running off and living a life and, you know, like getting rid of this child, like, she was so much of a detriment to your social life and dating life.

And that's what was so offensive to me. The one thing that was weird to me that I brought up to Lindsay when we covered the case was the way that the information was was publicized was that the mom was not going to allow Casey to give up her daughter for adoption. But then why didn't the grandparents raise Kaylee if Casey wanted to go do what she wanted to do? So I didn't think that was a little weird. You know, I think there's a lot to be said about believing women who don't want to be, you know, mothers, you have to believe them, you have to get, you know, let them make their choice so that, you know, if they want to give the baby up for adoption, maybe that is the best case scenario for the child. So it's just a series of really,

really unfortunate events. And I was re infuriated when we when we were covering the case because I had watched it live. And even her, the verdict, I remember, and I had a son at that time, you know, I was a young, a young mom. So I had a one year old when this was going on. And I was just like, I cannot imagine, I was 17, 18 years old, and I could not imagine, you know, my son being gone for 30, 31 days and not knowing where he was. Just heartbreaking and infuriating all at the same time. Oh, yeah. Do we think, do we think in that particular case that when she was referring to Zany, do you do you think that that was like a very callous way for her to be referring to Xanax, or do you think that it really was a nickname that she had just made up?

In terms of the babysitter, Zany. Yeah. My recollection of the case is that that was a reference to Xanax. It's like, how in your right, she she really did like thrive and the idea of like, Oh, this made her famous. Yes. She get dolled up for the cameras, you know, enjoyed every TMZ moment. Yeah, that it's, it's all, it's all so wild to me. I would love to know when do you have any updates on when you're going to do your reboot or you can't tell us. It's all being discussed now. You know, we didn't have much going on in terms of meetings over the Thanksgiving week. But now that we're back in action, we should know, go pretty soon. I would, I would think by the end of the year. I just ordered your book off Amazon yesterday. And Oh, wonderful. Yeah. So I didn't, I didn't

know that you wrote a book until I heard it on that when you were interviewing with Christina and Tom. So I'm super excited about getting it. Do you think that you'll write another one? Yeah, I'm being bugged to do that right now. And the first book I wrote, it was, you know, a pretty tight deadline. I mean, I had helped with it and all that. But, you know, we turned it around at four months. And I didn't take any time off. I mean, I was literally writing that book. Yeah, you know, when predators were coming in between predators showing up at the door during the investigations. And I had a great editor, experienced writer Laura Palmer helped me with that book. And it was great. And that's how we're able to do it so quickly.

But yeah, people are barking at me to do either to do an update to that or to do another book about, you know, all the crap stuff. So in fact, it was funny because I had, I'd sent an email to my literary agent just last week saying, Hey, let's get together and talk about it. It's very intense writing a book. I don't know if you've ever tried it. It took me two years when I wrote my first book. It took me two years because like, it's therapeutic in some ways, but then the guidelines kind of throw you off. And I'm a, I'm a funny writer too. When it comes to like, I can write a, you know, a television script or radio script or you can put a camera in front of me and I can, I can talk to you for an hour with no script. It's not a problem. But a book, I mean, first of all,

being a television reporter and writer ruins your, your punctuation and grammar because the only, the only punctuation you use is a ellipsis dot, dot, dot. And so Laura Palmer's first job was to say, okay, you know, the punctuation goes within the quotation marks and it's like, whatever, I just, people are going to read this, not just for your voice. So, but I would write like 18 hours a day, you know, and I had editors barking at me and agents barking at me and, and NBC was barking at me to get it done and get it passed us. And, and literally the last week was Thanksgiving, however, many years ago, and a dozen years ago, probably. And I wrote Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, 18 hours a day, literally straight through. I did one day

at the office, one day at home and just cranked through it and came home that, that Sunday night and had a sandwich and a glass of wine and just passed out, got up the next morning, wrote the seven page forward and hit send on the computer. I was never so glad to finish anything. It was great. I'm very, very proud of it. And I refer to it for the podcast today. And it was a good book and a good publisher. The whole, the whole deal was, it was great, but it, it was a lot of work. And so as I consider doing another book. With all your free time, obviously. Yeah. Well, it focuses you though, you know, it's, and everybody's got time for it and everybody's got a book in them. And I've got a lot to say about a lot of things, including the predator franchise,

but I don't know. I guess I'll do it. I was thinking I'd wait another 10 years. Yes. All right. We love that. So other than that, is there anything else that you're working on right now that you can share with us? We've got the podcast. We're in discussions, you know, the media world is shifting now in terms of, you know, who's working together and corporate-wise. And so I think there are a lot of exciting opportunities there that we're in the midst of discussing. And, you know, I think, I think 2022 is going to be a big year for Hansen versus Predator and have a seat with Chris Hansen and take down with Chris Hansen and all these new projects. So I think that's so exciting. I'm subscribed to your podcast right here. Oh, thank

you. Perfect. Yeah. So I'm, and it was updated today. So you have a new episode. Yeah. I just dropped on today. Actually, this is a good one. This is the one, and it's a, it was a Predator first because it was the first time that two guys showed up at the same time and the same place where I did the interview at the same time. Oh, wow. It's a bit of a, for Predator aficionados, this is a, this is a history-making. That one sounds familiar. I'm excited to listen to it. Tennis Boy 213 and slaves to mistresses. If you, if you're ever in the tri-state area, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, call me. I will be there to help run and get Starbucks, whatever y'all need. Absolutely. So how old is your, is your puppy there?

Well, you know, she's quite annoying right at this moment. So this is the, this is Gabriel. This is the puppy that Gabriel wants. Oh my God. Hi. Hi. She is nine weeks old. She's a mini golden doodle and she has eaten my hands off while we've been doing this interview. So she's so cute. She's Georgia. Is it a doodle of some sort? Yeah. She's a micro mini golden doodle. Oh my God. Looks like a little puppet. She's so cute. Yeah. She's very cute, but very high maintenance so far. Yeah. That's the age. And you have a son, right? Lindsay? I do. Yeah. He's almost nine. He's almost nine. Yeah. So, I mean, is that his like obsession and, oh yeah, like they're obsessed with each other and it's like so cute sometimes, but then also I'm like, okay, you guys need to

separate like real children. Separate to your own things, but they've really been enjoying their time together so far. Oh good. You don't need a sibling, you know? I mean, I mean, that's, I sometimes think dogs are more work than children. Oh, I say that all the time. We literally talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your baby, you put in a crib, you put in a diaper. Right. Yeah. And I would put her in her crate while we were doing this. We wouldn't be doing this. Yeah. So, yeah. Look at him look at you. He's so cute. Georgia. Georgia. What a great name too. And I'm sure your son like does all the poop scooping and right? No. Right. No. No, they promise, right? Like our kids are the youngest are 20, almost 22 and 20. And we still haven't done it. My

son's allergic to everything. I'm sure they'll be in therapy for the rest of life because we didn't get them a dog, but you know, I want a bulldog. I have a French bulldog. Oh, so cute. They're also high maintenance. But such characters. They are. Yeah. No, they're characters for sure. Yeah. So cute. Georgia playing in her air. Yeah. Like I say, I woke up today. So cute. All right, guys. Well, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on and we'll, we'll have you on the, on the Patreon. Yeah. Awesome. We'll get that for you. Yeah. All right. See you. All right. See you.