Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 199: True Crime Talk: Elizabeth Short aka The Black Dahlia

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

[TW: GRAPHIC DEPICTIONS OF VIOLENCE] On this month's true crime bonus episode Kail and Lindsie are covering the murder of 22 year old Elizabeth Short, also known as The Black Dahlia. When Elizabeth Short was mysteriously and violently murdered in January of 1947, the investigation quickly ran cold. Despite 60 people confessing to the murder during the initial investigation, the killer was never found. Kail and Lindsie discuss Elizabeth's short life, what happened to her, and the investigation that ultimately lead to more questions than answers. They discuss possible suspects, including one man who's own son believes him to be the murderer. This episode was sponsored by: KiwiCo, StitchFix, & Warby Parker Music by Nathaniel Wyvern. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License.

Hello. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? I'm, I'm well. I'm definitely well today. How are you? I'm actually doing well as well. I just got my cat waxed. Perfect timing for our episode. Yes, it was perfect. So have you been doing well? Have you been doing your positions in the shower and getting your legs up? I actually haven't shaved my cat in about a week and a half just because I don't have anyone to shave it for. And I personally don't give a fuck. So here we are. I need to know from everyone who's listening to this. What is your cat waxing or shaving routine? Like, are you an everyday or are you an every couple of days or, or do you just like literally not care? I just like

don't, if, if I feel like shaving, I will shave. But I just don't care right now. But yeah, I would be curious to like other people shave every day because they like it or do they only shave when they, when they need to or. Because I used to be a everyday shaver. Um, crazy. I have to use like a, like I used manscaped for my cat. You do? Yeah. Love that for you. Yeah, I mean, the crevices. No, I don't use it in the crevices, but like, you know, um, in other news, can we do the little update on the, how do you say it? Murder? Yeah, murder. Yeah, update us. Yeah. So article came out that said direct evidence allegedly ties Alex Murdoch to the double murder of wife and son. Arrest may be coming

soon. Um, and it says that sled will not comment on the potential existence of any evidence in this or any active ongoing investigation. Um, and it said just, you know, like talked about the case a little bit and, um, just saying that there is substantial and serious citing unidentified sources close to the investigation. Um, saying that there is like substantial evidence. So I don't know exactly what that evidence is. I will be very curious, um, to find out, but I thought this all along. So we actually got a message from someone who said, I didn't know y'all were following the Murdoch cases. Stephen Smith is my mom's second cousin. So I would assume that the person that wrote in, it would be their third

cousin. Yeah. So Stephen would be her third cousin. He's the 19 year old that got murdered in 2015. My whole family thinks he was in a relationship with the oldest Murdoch boy and his family didn't want it getting out. So much sketchy shit around this entire case. So that's exactly what we said in the episode. Yeah. And I, I truly do think that, um, it's maybe they lived in like an ignorant and uncultured. Yes. World. And so I think that maybe the times are still like very off maybe in the geographical location of where they are or maybe within their upbringing. Um, and they continued those patterns of non-acceptance and I definitely believe that this Alex guy had his hands all over every part of it.

I agree. Um, okay. So tell us what you are teaching us today. And I have to tell you, I am pleasantly surprised because when I heard the name of this case, I was like, what like even is this? Like this does not even sound interesting by the name. And as I started researching, it's like very, very interesting and so many twists and turns. And it's also so weird to me that this was so long ago and like crazy shit like this was happening so long ago. Oh, 100%. So today we're talking about the Black Dahlia. And I found out about this case when I was in high school and a movie came out called the Black Dahlia. And Hilary Swank is in it, Scarlett Johansson, um, and a couple other super known actors

and actresses. And, um, that was when I first heard about the case and I knew it was based on a true story, but like I also didn't really put too much thought into it. Like I guess I just, the movie was so Hollywood that I just didn't really care. Yeah. Like I knew it was a real case, but I didn't really dig into it until we started covering true crime on here. So thinking back to when I literally went to the movies to see this movie twice, like I paid to go see it twice because I was like, oh my God, this is so fascinating. Um, but when I rewatched it last week, it's not, it's nothing like the actual case. Um, it's very, very much Hollywoodized. If you want to call it that, if you will. Um, okay,

so I'm going to start with Elizabeth Short. Um, she was born July 29th, 1924. And she was born in Boston, Massachusetts. She's the third of five sisters and her parents were together, you know, during her childhood, but the childhood was a little bit tumultuous and her father was said to have commit suicide. They found his car in an abandoned parking lot and it was assumed that he then jumped off the bridge and committed suicide. Um, so the mom pretty much made ends meet the best way she knew how she did what she could. They lived in a little, um, apartment, but it was later actually revealed that he did not commit suicide. He just left his family and started over in California.

Kale, when I heard that, I was like, okay, this is a lot of red flags. I was like, what if she goes to seek out her dad, like this whole, he's lived this whole lie for a big part of his life. And what if she goes and tries to seek him out and becomes in contact with someone that he knows and he like kills her off, you know, like my thoughts were going on this case, every different possible direction that it possibly could go. Oh, a hundred percent. And I just feel like for a man to just abandon his five daughters and then leave. And I just so crazy. I don't understand. I definitely thought he had something to do with it at first when I read that. Um, so it's revealed that he left his family.

He starts over in California and Elizabeth connects with him. She's like, I, you know, I don't belong in Massachusetts. I want to do something bigger and better. I'm just destined for something more. And she goes to live with her dad for, um, for, he allows her to stay there. If she cooks and cleans, she, you know, she can stay there. So, um, that didn't last long. It lasts about three weeks, I think it was three weeks. And she starts bouncing around from that point forward. She's just basically doing any types of jobs, like waitressing or, you know, little things like that to kind of get by and bouncing around between boyfriends, houses, friends, houses, like literally just getting by. So she, Elizabeth is hardly ever

single at this time and she always has a boyfriend or boyfriends. There's, um, she's kind of known for that. And I think in the forties, it was, um, you know, you get a reputation and it's like the, you know, the, you get associated with like prostitutes and things like that. So this is not me slut shaming or doing anything like that. This is, I'm just setting the tone for the years that were, the year that we're in. Yeah. Because I was thinking way back, back then, I mean, there was probably girls that dated around and whatever, but I could imagine that it would be more frowned upon back in that time than today. Yes, exactly. So there were rumors that she was a prostitute and some think that the murder was like a

sex related crime. Um, so like I said, she never, she would work when she needed to, but she was never really consistent with it. Um, and at this time she wanted to be an actress. She thought that Hollywood would change her life, but she never really quite made it there because at 22 years old, um, Elizabeth is found murdered. She's found murdered in California and by a, a woman who is walking down the street with her, with her infant in the stroller and she comes across this body. It looks pretty much like a mannequin. It is so white that it looks like a mannequin, but it's enough. It scared her enough that she needed to go to the nearest home and call the police. So she does report the body, um, you know, in,

in the grass. It's like basically in a undeveloped, it's, it's about to be developed like into like row homes or homes. It's, it's where houses are going to be built. But I did, um, listen to another podcast and they had said that in the area of where she was found was kind of like a place that debris would be dropped off. And so is that what you also everything that I found was that it was, it was supposed to be developed into a housing, but it may have been like a debris drop off area first. I don't know. Okay. Um, so this lady's just like strolling and she comes across her body. Yes. And actually this month is the anniversary of her death. Um, she was found on January

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grow as big as their smile. And KiwiCo does all the legwork to find the creative ways to keep your children busy and challenged so you can spend the quality time tackling projects together. And something really great about KiwiCo is that there is something for kids of all ages. So there is no commitment. You can pause or cancel at any time. So redefine learning with play and get 50% off your first month plus free shipping on any crate line with code COFFEE at KiwiCo.com. That's 50% off your first month at KiWICO.com promo code COFFEE. Prior to her body being found, she was actually arrested for underage drinking, which caused

her to be booked, which means that they had her fingerprints. And that was actually the only way that they were able to identify her dead body because the body and the face was so unrecognizable. That was the only way that they actually got a hit. And the last place that she lived before she passed away was with a woman named Dorothy. And Dorothy worked at an overnight theater and saw that Elizabeth Short had been sleeping there. So she kind of took Elizabeth Short under her wing and was like, you know, you can stay with me for a little while. And Elizabeth was kind of like, you know, it won't be long just until I get on my feet again. And so she stays there. But again, similar to why her dad kicked her

out was because she wants to go out late. She's not really cleaning up after herself. She's not working. She's not cooking and cleaning. She's not doing what she should be doing. And she kind of wore out her welcome. So did you also get that? Yeah. And she seemed to me kind of like the personality that I was gathering from everything that I researched was that in this day and time, we would consider this person a free spirit, someone who doesn't really have a schedule or routine, a little bit troubled, kind of goes where the wind blows, has aspirations, but doesn't really do much to, you know, see them through. And she's living a very troubled and semi-wild life.

Right. Like kind of, I don't know how to describe it, but you just never know, like, you wouldn't know where to call her because you don't know where she's living at the time kind of thing. Like you kind of have to wait for her to call you, you know what I mean? She's pretty rogue. Yeah. That would be a word that I would use. So it said that prior to living with Dorothy, Elizabeth Short had been in love with a man named Matt Gordon. Matt Gordon is a decorated Air Force officer and Elizabeth claims that

she fell in love with him at first sight and they wrote love letters to each other and Elizabeth told friends they were married, but later that they would get married, but later she said that she was married, he passed away, and then later the mother downplayed the relationship. He actually went away and I believe it was World War One and allegedly passed away in a plane crash over India. There's conflicting evidence on whether they were actually engaged or not, but Elizabeth Short claims to have been engaged sometimes to people or married to some people. And Matt Gordon's mom did confirm, you know, with Elizabeth to let her know that he had passed away and seemed to be very loving in the notes that

she was sending Elizabeth, but then later denied that it was ever as serious as Elizabeth claimed. So I don't know if that's from the notoriety of the case or if that was just she was trying to downplay it. I don't know. Nobody really knows the status because he is no longer here. It was interesting to me that, like I said a little bit earlier, this was so long ago, but this murder has been credited by historians as one of the first major crimes in post World War Two to ever capture any type of like national attention or anything like that. And so I just wonder when this was actually going on in real time, you know, we hear about serial

killers and like crazy stuff all the time now, right? When this was happening in this time. Was this like highly publicized? Yes, it was so publicized. Like this is I think it sold the most copies of the LA Tribune or have it written down in my notes. I'll read it once I get to that section. It was like the highest, like people could not get enough of this case. Like even over 150 people at one point falsely confessed to this murder. Like so many people were could not get enough of this. Like fascinated. Yeah. And they also, I mean, there were there were newspapers and press that did slut shame her. And then there were other ones that were, you know, all the theories that they had. And even just how

she was found. And I want to say before you guys listen any further to this episode, this is a trigger warning. This episode is very graphic when I described to you the condition of her body. I want to warn you guys that is very, very explicit. So I will get to that shortly. But if you don't want to listen to that, maybe maybe skip this episode. So she's she's with, you know, she claims that she's with Gordon, Matt Gordon, and Dorothy, the one that she's staying with says that Elizabeth tells her that they were married. Now, other people say that Elizabeth said that they were engaged, but ultimately, she has to move on and she meets, she loves a man in uniform. And even her father says that after he finds

out about her death. I wrote down that Elizabeth seemed to basically just get by, she was an opportunist, so she used people for places to stay, even if she didn't know them. January 9 1947, Elizabeth is returning to LA after a trip to San Diego with a married man. So this man is nicknamed red because he has red hair. And he is a salesman. His name is Robert Manley. He she gets picked up at Dorothy's home and Dorothy sees the Studebaker coupe that he drives. So she sees him, she sees the coupe. And so later on, that'll be important to the case. Manley left her at the Biltmore Hotel on January 9 1947. And I actually stayed there before, where she's supposed to meet her sister, which is, that's the interesting

part to me because the thing has ever said anything further about her sister, like when did her sister come into town because I was under the impression the four other sisters that she had still lived in Massachusetts. So I'm not really sure where this, you know, because I didn't find any information from the sister about her. So like, did the sister never come? Was she ever there? Was that just a rumor? And supposedly this is confirmed and corroborated with hotel staff that they saw her using the phone in the Biltmore, which means that Robert Manley did in fact drop her off at the Biltmore. But she had left the Biltmore that night and she was last seen at Crown Grill cocktail lounge on South Olive

Street. It's about half a mile from that hotel. So she's seen at both on January 9, which immediately in my mind, I was like, okay, maybe Robert Manley has nothing to do with this. That's what I thought actually too, because in my mind just based off of purely her personality and the way she seemed to move. I don't believe in my opinion that it would be odd that he would drop her off at this hotel. And then maybe she was making other plans to go do something else with someone else. Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you there. I don't think that it would be, you know,

weird for that to happen. So where that was January 9, but nobody that was the last time that she was seen at the Crown Grill on South Olive Street. So that's about a half a mile from the hotel. Now she's not seen again until January 15, where Betty Bursinger was strolling with her daughter and thought that it was a disposed mannequin. The way that she described the body was completely white, which later was revealed that the body was completely drained of blood, medically completely drained of blood. And like I said earlier, the fingerprints were matched for her arrest for underage drinking. Now the position of the body was face up and cut completely in half right above her navel or below her navel. So the body was

actually laid face up but separated. The hands were stretched above her head and she had this Joker smile cut into her face. So her mouth was cut from ear to ear. The lower half of her body was about a foot away with the legs spread wide open. It was also noted that she was completely mutilated with cuts all over. She had her right breast entirely cut off. She had ligature marks on her neck, wrists and ankles. She was most likely tied up and possibly raped because her anus was dilated. So sodomy occurred. On the left thigh, a chunk was removed from her, on her left thigh because she had a, I think it was a rose tattoo removed. She had tic-tac-toe cut into her skin. She had cigarette burns,

scalpel lacerations. She had cuts on her hip. She was forced to eat feces prior to her death. And then there was another substance that was unknown found in her stomach. The body was very carefully posed and it was scrubbed with a coconut fiber brush to make sure that there were no marks, evidence or fingerprints left on her body. And it was, she actually had a hysterectomy. So they removed some of her organs, specifically her uterus. They cut some of her hair off and shoved it inside of her vagina. And, you know, it was said that she, this was, this was to make a statement the way that the body was placed. Now there was levity in her face, which means that she was on her stomach and face down for some

time. And then the body was moved and placed into, you know, this, this area face up. So they were able to tell that she, she was on her stomach and face down for some time. This literally, if anyone is listening that ever watched the show you where he walks the guy up like in that cellar type thing. It made me think that is mutilated as her body was. And by some of the things that I read stated that she would have had to have been alive when some of these things were taking place, that this was almost like a torture experience and could have potentially happened over a period of days. Right. So if she's last seen on January 9th, and she's not found until the 15th, that's

six days. Like this could have happened over a period of time. The autopsy claims that she was cut in half after death. That part, I'm not sure how they determine, you know, that, but the cause of death of death was listed as severe concussion hemorrhaging from lacerations on head and face. They believe that the time of death could have been late January 14th into the early morning of January 15th. I don't think that it would have been the morning of the 15th only because of the amount of things that happened after death. So if her body was cut in half and drained of blood after death, that would take a lot of time. And I don't know if anyone would be able to then put her body there the morning

of the 15th and get everything done prior to that. But I'm not a professional. So I also kind of felt that way too. Like it just feels like maybe it was more so the 14th is what I'm getting at. You guys know I have four kids and getting to the store to shop for kids is an absolute nightmare. I really prefer to use Stitch Fix. All four of my kids are signed up for this. And when it comes to looking good, Stitch Fix has you covered. So you can say goodbye to endless browsing and hello to FreshPix curated for your taste and size. I love when you go online and you can, you see the little outfits or like the pieces of clothing. It's

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combos. So shortly after her death, Los Angeles examiner got a phone call from someone claiming to be the killer. And although there are lots of false confessions, this one stood out to me because he was thrilled with how much media coverage. I mean, the media covered this case literally while the body was still in the grass. And they, if you Google pictures of the Black Dahlia, most of them are the edited and Photoshopped versions of her. Just because of the explicit nature of how her body actually looked, it was said that most places actually airbrushed her, her body. Wow. Which is great. I actually found ones that I had to dig for them. But I found some unedited ones and it's, I was afraid that I wasn't going to sleep

at night. That's how bad they were. So this guy calls and he's thrilled with the cover, the coverage of the murder, and he sends them to retrieve belongings of Elizabeth. He claims that he has things, including photos, business cards, birth certificate, et cetera. And then he later sends them to retrieve another package, which includes her purse and a shoe. No fingerprints were, sorry about that, no fingerprints were found on these, these items. But one of the people who she was with prior to her death did confirm that, that was a shoe of hers. Now when they notified her dad of her death, her dad did not give a shit and basically called her a slut in a prostitute and was just kind of like, of course she's dead. Like

I don't care. And he actually wouldn't go down to the coroner's office to identify her body. I have the whole time that I was watching and reading stuff on this. There's just something about the dad. I mean, it goes all the way back to him, you know, faking his death so that he can go and live another life. But there's just something about the dad and his complete lack of like care or concern that is truly just very alarming. Well, it's just triggering. Like I don't know how you, you have five children and you just decide that you're going to up and leave them. Now he is a raging alcoholic. Not that that makes an excuse, but it could maybe help someone understand why he just is so dismissive and

doesn't care. I think a big part of this case that we're, we're talking about like in the 40s, mental health probably wasn't something that was even, you know, people didn't probably even know about issues with mental health or anything like that. It's like back in the day, people were just deemed as the word crazy, you know, and, and nothing was looked into any further. To me, it seems like just based off of things that we know specifically about the dad and then her behaviors that there could be some mental health stuff that is going on. Right. Just never addressed. They just don't have. So there's a $10,000 reward for any

information leading to the killer and about 150 suspects were interviewed. The first suspect that they looked into was Mark Hansen. He is a nightclub owner and was known to have hit on Elizabeth, but she kind of rejected his, his advances. There's no formal evidence brought against him, but he does remain a suspect for some time. The next theory that they have is a surgeon or a doctor because of the way that the body was dissected along with having the body drained and the hysterectomy. They also performed in order to separate the body the way they did. They performed what's called a, now I want to pronounce this correctly. I believe it's hypercortectomy, hypercorrectomy. I wrote

it down. Yeah. And it, it is very popular. It was popular to have learned that in medical school around the thirties. Now that brings us to a man named George Hodel. I don't know if you got into George Hodel at all, but George Hodel is a doctor who becomes a very, very well-known doctor in LA at this time. And he is, I literally, when I found out who George Hodel was, I didn't know if I was going to make this case about the Black Dahlia or George Hodel himself because there's so many twists and turns in that man alone that I don't, I can't wrap my head around any other suspect. Like he, in my opinion, I believe he did it. George Hodel is, I also believe he did it. Just put it out there, but I will say something

else that crossed my mind. What if it was somebody who potentially like assisted in surgeries like under him or something. That's, that could be very true. So George Hodel is, I'm going to give a little bit of background information on him. And then I'm also going to go back to the guy named Red who Elizabeth was seen with. George Hodel, he is a certified genius. He has an IQ of 185. He goes to college at, I believe it was 17, 15 or 17. And he ends up getting a married professor pregnant. He wants to be with her and make it work. And she says no. I mean, this tore apart her marriage and she goes back to the East Coast where she's from. George does follow her and think that he's going to make it work with

her, but she kind of rejects him and laughs at him. And so George comes back to California. He's kicked out of Caltech and he tries to pursue art, but he's never really accepted for this. He enrolls later at Berkeley and he goes to medical school and he becomes, you know, an Arizona surgeon. He moves to Arizona. He then moves back to LA again and he becomes the head surgeon. So remember, this is the 30s and 40s. So venereal diseases are on the rise because of the war and things like that. It is, gonorrhea and syphilis are the number one health issue during World War I. And this is kind of where the public health issue comes in and that the stigmas around, which I don't believe are true, syphilis and

gonorrhea are coming from sex workers, poor people, you know, people, but I don't, I can't honestly say that I believe that. I think that there, there were people having unprotected sex because they're during war, you're meeting new people. You're spreading it around. You're kind of, I don't know. Anyhow, George Hodel is known for testing patients and giving them false positive tests because then he makes money from it. So he charges per patient 75 to $100, which today would be worth about $1,000. So he's making $1,000 per person and then telling them they have another positive for an STD that they maybe don't necessarily have. At this time, he's also performing illegal abortions. And in the midst of all of this,

he just got acquitted of allegedly sexually abusing his daughter and impregnating her, which they later give the baby up for adoption. This man is so twisted that just based off of that information alone, you would just want to point your finger that direction because of all, yeah, 100%. So at this time, he does have another, he's a daughter that he allegedly impregnated and she gave the baby up for adoption and he also has a son named Steve. Steve is 14 at the time. He leaves the family, George Hodel leaves the family and doesn't really have a relationship with Steve after this. But his secretary, Ruth Spalding, was having an affair with George Hodel. And she basically gets upset and confronts George Hodel with

this information. I know that you're, you know, doing these illegal things and threatens to expose him. Then suddenly because of this, she, well, I'm not gonna say because of this, then suddenly, the secretary has a quote unquote overdose, a drug overdose. So that's what I'm gonna say about him. Now, Robert Manley, aka red is also a suspect on the list. They narrow the 150 people down to about six. And Robert Manley is one of them. Now, Robert Manley is the married man, the salesman. They had taken the trip to San Diego. He drops her off at the Biltmore. You know, they find out that he's married. Him and the wife actually are extremely cooperative and, you know, he takes lie detector tests and he passed them

with fine colors. I think he took two of them. And he says, you know, the biggest lesson from this is that, well, one, he didn't do it. This is what he says, I didn't do it. And I will never cheat on my wife ever again, because look where it landed you as a suspect in one of the most famous murders of all time. So I was at first, I was like, wow, this really could be red, like red could have done this. But red doesn't really have a motive. Like there's no unless they're the motive would be to, you know, maybe she threatened to tell his wife. But Elizabeth, she didn't really even seem to be the type to be in long term relationships. It was more like she was using men to get whatever she needed. I mean, she

even hit up one of her exes, his name was Joseph Fickling. He was also a military man. He leaves, he moves to North Carolina and she prior to her death, she reached out to him for money and he did send it to her. So it just kind of seems to me like it's whoever she can get something from at the time. So I don't think that she would have any interest in telling, you know, Red's wife about, you know, their love affair. I just don't see it. In my opinion, she seems to be like a woman that would be like the hookup type. And there's no risk of like her telling anyone or anything like that, like she's on to the next right like not emotionally invested in the men. She's more of an opportunist. Yes. So after

some time, the case does go cold. And unfortunately, there's just not they did narrow down the suspects and but nobody ever really comes forward. Nobody has more information. The packages from the alleged killer to the I think it was Los Angeles examiner stops and the case just stays cold. Now there are plenty of theories about what was going on. But Steve George Dr. George Hodel son Steve becomes a very, very decorated homicide detective for LAPD. And he writes a book called the Black Dahlia Avenger where he ultimately claims that his father killed the Black Dahlia. He investigated his own dad for the murder, but there was no real evidence at the scene. So and a lot of the evidence that they did have at this

point was quote lost and or destroyed. They're not really sure. And a lot of the LAPD were really weird about it with Steve and they don't really give Steve the credit or the time of day in solving this crime. He's so dead set that his dad killed her. There was they did know when he went back to investigate that there was cement sacks with watery blood on them and the sacks were used to transport the transport the body. So the body was sitting on top of these sacks and they were manure sacks. So that to me connects to her having to eat. Yes. Before she died. And there was receipts for I don't remember if it was the manure or the cement sacks. So there were manure sacks and cement sacks. There was

a receipt found in Dr. George Hodel's possessions that matched the exact same brand that of the sacks that were found at the scene. So I want to note that. I felt like and tell me if you got this vibe to that the person who did this obviously this was so just brutal and inhumane would have had to have been like a very sick and twisted soul but also someone who would have some kind of medical background to know like how to properly do this stuff. Yes. So yeah. Did you also notate that about her tattoo. Yes. That was the chunk that was removed from the tissue that was moved from her left thigh was the tattoo that he removed. Whoever did it removed the tattoo out of her thigh.

So what I found was that this tattoo was something that she was very proud of and that she was very showy of. Yes. To men. So to me for this person to cut the tattoo off. They felt some type of way about it. Yeah. So the police paid close attention to the surgical cuts and like I said this person played tic-tac-toe on her. That is so disturbing to me. They said that it was definitely a skilled doctor or someone with medical training. It was not a butcher or like a random job. And like I said the I think it's called a hemi-corpectomy hemi-corpectomy or hemi-corpectomy. And like I said that was taught in med school in the 1930s which does which would align with Dr. George Hodel's medical training. Dr. George

Hodel was an only child who hated his mother. Like it was noted that he hated her so I feel strongly about you know maybe this is why he could have done it. He was a musical prodigy but he wanted to play baseball not piano and his mother like did not want anything to him to do with baseball at all. Like she wanted him to be a musical prodigy which he was. And George Hodel while getting acquitted for the sexual abuse of his own daughter he was also suspected of killing his secretary and that's kind of how they put him on the suspect list for Elizabeth Short's murder. Now it was found and it was said that Elizabeth and George dated for a short time. Like they were briefly dating so that's how he was then linked

to her because at first I was like well what does his secretary and him have to do with Elizabeth Short why would they automatically just assume him. And as I was digging down this rabbit hole they have they've actually been seen together at parties especially the ones that he threw at his own house. So that was interesting. My thoughts on him is what if okay let's just hypothetically say they're dating. She potentially rejects him or she doesn't reject him but he finds out that she's seeing other people or something like that. How does something so gruesome happen to someone like there has to have been some type of like sick deep rooted motive for someone to kill someone

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Elizabeth like when her dad refused to identify the body allegedly the mom and her one of her sisters came to identify the body but where were all of Elizabeth shorts like female like woman friends that like we're going to come forward and like not save her but like defend like there was no nobody defended the black doll I feel like she was very much slut shamed and like the media just like attacked her for kind of being kind of nomadic like would you know not have like a steady place to live but if you look at her childhood you can understand you know where she was at I just don't understand like where the people were defending her and like not allowing her name to be dragged in the mud like not even

her mom and sister really said much about it you know. I just that's why I keep going back to this mental health thing and was she there's obviously things that we don't know but what type of childhood did she actually have like was she troubled as a child you know the wild one so it said that she was the wild one she always wanted more she kind of was just like she didn't believe that she belonged in Massachusetts she believed that she wanted you know she was she was destined for more than that for than a small town. So I mean there's some something to be said about that like maybe she just needed some

guidance she she definitely could have made it big with some with the right guidance and the right people but when you don't really have that that structure it's hard to gravitate towards people who would be good for you it's more kind of you know what she got which was people she could use for a short time. And you also have to consider too that if her sisters were more like her mom and were perfectly fine being where they grew up and were calm calm beings and whatever and she was like this outlier maybe she just didn't feel like she ever had a place and maybe some of the wildness and the running to Los Angeles came from right that's fair I really want

to I want to quickly note that George Dr. George Hodel when he was allegedly when he allegedly impregnated his daughter he did try to perform an illegal abortion and it failed so that's when they decided to put the baby up for adoption so I just wanted to add that now while police are still investigating Dr. George Hodel they bug his home and they listened to his daily conversations. It is weird to me that they really only went further with him in the investigation but it still went nowhere they did not after Robert Manley kind of passed the polygraphs and his wife was cooperative and they didn't really find anything they never really looked into

too many other people. They did go as far as bugging George Hodel's home and on February 18th 1950 they're listening to his daily conversations and at 825 they hear a woman scream on the bug like the little one where they're listening and two minutes later they hear another scream. This woman was not on in conversations prior to that for about two hours and then they never heard her again. So it says I wrote down noted no woman was heard in the house after 650. So from 650 to 825 no woman has made a sound until the two screams that they hear.

LAPD then goes into the house they go to check things out and they leave immediately. So it said it's rumored that Dr. George Hodel may have paid them off and LAPD is corrupt at this time I mean I think they were corrupt for a really long time. But when they leave Dr. Hodel makes a phone call and this is still while the house is bugged and he says to somebody putting I'm putting a pillow over her face and covering with a blanket. It's then where they hear him say so he says suppose and I did kill the Black Dahlia they can't prove it they can't talk to my secretary anymore because she's dead.

So that's in the transcripts from the house bugging and it's alleged like I said that Dr. Hodel was paying off LAPD and that was honestly my first thought before I even read that that was alleged that was my first thought I mean if you hear a woman screaming why how do you walk out of the house with nothing nothing right like you don't even know if there was a domestic incident you don't know because I believe at this time he was divorced and police note that this was likely a Dr. Surgeon by 1950 there was enough evidence there was actually enough evidence to go against him but it was too late because Dr. George Hodel fled to the Philippines he never they couldn't even you know do anything because

he fled. So we move on to the son Steve he actually believed that his father killed many more people than just Elizabeth he he like I said earlier he was left when his dad when he was 14 by his dad and before that he said that his dad would leave the states and come back and not tell anyone and then he believed at the time he was killing people and then going back there's no like proof or evidence of that but Steve wanted to investigate his dad when he got older so in 2013 after the books in the movie George's home was actually tested for human remains like the soil and the soil behind the home came back positive for human

remains it doesn't say who or why there's no other information other than there is human decomposition in that soil. Really shit so there are some that argue that Steve has a potential like personal vendetta against his father and that's why all of this like circumstantial evidence is kind of used to not really defame because I don't think it's defaming I think he really believes his dad did this there are some people that think that Steve just has a vendetta against his dad but I don't know I kind of agree so there's another one go ahead. I keep going back to though just the way that her body was scrubbed that this would have

been someone that would have been burst and like medical scrubbing. Well why if if I didn't know that this body was scrubbed I would never know that if I touched someone it leaves a fingerprint like you have to know that in like medical school or like if you're a coroner pathologist I would not know that if I touched my son like if I touched my son's skin why would my fingerprint be on his finger on his skin like he has his own prints you know what I mean yeah like I guess I just like wouldn't have put two and two together. That's why I just think with the precision of the cuts and stuff like that.

And then how there was no fingerprints know whatever that it would have had to have been someone that was like so properly trained medically agreed. So another suspect in this case is a woman named Christine Reynolds I hear like a woman what the fuck. So she's 35 years old she has three kids and she confesses to the murder this is the 27th person to confess Christine says that she knew Elizabeth as Liz Libby and they live together at the time of the murder they met at a bar about three years ago and she claims that her and Libby were intimate secretly because this is the earth like before the 50s.

And this adds to the media's frenzy and obsession with this case because it was not okay to be gay or a lesbian at this time. Christine says that Libby was cheating on her with another woman and this upset Christine because Elizabeth wasn't home yet so she goes out and she looks for Elizabeth and she finds her at a bar with a woman named Louise they got into an argument and Christine basically convinced Elizabeth to leave and while they're driving Christine leans over and chokes Elizabeth. Elizabeth is able to get herself out of the car where they struggle. And Christine says that she has Elizabeth in a chokehold and pulls out a pocket knife

and claims to have started to stab Elizabeth now police at this time are not buying it because she doesn't have stab wounds she has very very different wounds. But Christine does tell them that she took she did cut her hair and put it up her vagina and that's when police were like okay you're definitely involved somehow but like how because that detail was not released to the public at this time. Christine then breaks down her story falls apart Christine's girlfriend was actually working for LAPD and that is how she got the information. So when they asked Christine why did she lie.

She said that she woke up with bloody clothes on bloody shoes and she went to police thinking that she did something but she doesn't remember what what she did because if she was so intoxicated. So she couldn't live with herself knowing that she put she could have possibly done this and just move forward now okay fine she didn't she didn't kill the black dolly up but she definitely hurt somebody and they never they never even explored that at all they never figured out like why she had blood on her clothes who she could have hurt like nothing they never investigated that at all. And they never also invest investigated the girlfriend that was working for LAPD they

nothing ever came up this they never questioned Christine's girlfriend or not or anything. Which is so odd like how do you have that type of information and you do nothing proactively figure out what the fuck it is at all. So now we're going back to George Dr. George Hodel a sketch from the New York or sorry not New York the sketch in North Carolina comes up and it says quote Dahlia killer lock look up this man. So North Carolina PD forwards this to LAPD and the sketch looks exactly like Dr. George Hodel.

So this is in North Carolina so now they're starting to think okay this murder of Elizabeth short is very similar to something going on in Ohio and Chicago where victims are also cut in half these are the Cleveland torso killer and they're saying that maybe it's the same serial killer who did those murders and then this would would have been her final or his final murder which would be a little bit short but who who plays tic-tac-toe alone so then that was like okay maybe George Dr. George Hodel didn't do it by himself maybe he did it with with help. What if okay if we're just playing hypotheticals here if she was still did the tic-tac-toe

happen when she was dead or did it happen when she was still alive because he could have been playing tic-tac-toe with her that's what I was just about to say with her because maybe if she lost he killed her like it's something really twisted. I think that the tic-tac-toe happened when she was still alive and it was a game being played against her. I agree I do agree with you so Dr. George Hodel he ends up dying in 1991 at 91 years old and he is still the American physician and suspect in the murder of Elizabeth short of Black Dahlia he left here officially in 1950 and spent the next 40 years in the Philippines

now he did come back with his fourth wife to the United States and died so when I was doing the research and they said that they had at one point enough evidence to to charge him why didn't they charge him when he came back because he did come back here before he died so I guess like if they did have all that evidence now some people argue that it was all circumstantial I don't know if you can charge someone with murder with circumstantial evidence or not but he he was acquitted of all he never was charged I don't know if he was charged or if he was just a suspect in the in the murder of his secretary he was acquitted for the charges against his daughter and he was he never got charged with his financial

fraud illegal abortions or his positive STD tests now it was said that he could have been maybe he was the murderers the murderer of the the Cleveland torso killer like maybe he was the murderer of them as well I don't know if I go with I don't know if I believe that theory he covered up they think that he killed Ruth to cover up the fraud that he was doing and it says that around 2004 it was publicized the extent of evidence against George and like I said he came back in 1990 with his fourth wife and then 1999 he died so he was here for nine years before he died why didn't they charge him then the handwriting allegedly on all the mail that was sent to the press was quite similar to Georgia's

so I don't really know I think it's a widely accepted theory that he did it I also did research into the house that they believe that it occurred in and the house was recently sold for four point seven million dollars and it is absolutely stunning like it is like I would live there but like the bad voodoo and the the vibes that I would get from it I'm sure would be horrible but the house is absolutely stunning well so who did the house belong to it belonged to the hotel and okay so sorry I was thinking but let's say we're going with the theory that this happened over a period of days my question always was where was this happening like he wasn't just like doing this like he did this somewhere and

took the remains to the place that she was found like this all didn't happen it's not like he like killed her brutally like outside somewhere right but like this happened over a period of time maybe like in the person's home Lindsay if you look up the home it was redone so I will say that it doesn't probably look anything like it once did but the house was I it was so fascinating to look at it because you're just like I'm looking at it right now oh weird isn't it so stunning like but it's like cool it's like cool but it's also like not something I would ever buy I mean obviously like I'm too broke to buy that but um I just don't think I could live there but it's like it says the most famous house

in Los Angeles on a cold sunny morning of January 15 1947 a woman walking her three-year-old daughter okay so she wasn't in a stroller in limer park neighborhood found the mutilated courts corpse of elizabeth short aka the black dahlia 13 miles away from the crime scene is where many as experts believe shorts murderer lived and possibly where he killed her this mansion known as the southern house is an architectural masterpiece designed by frank Lloyd Wright son Lloyd Wright and it still stirs up mystery and can take a tour inside the 5600 square foot mansion and learn all about its dark past it has a Mayan tale a Mayan temple on it yeah stunning it is so just like but when you look at it and you

know what could have taken place there it's so eerie um but many experts do think that it happened there so I definitely I think it did it says this historic this historical picture from the southern house website shows the home during the 1940s this would have been where where um dr. George Hodel lived at the time um southern only lived there for a few years the property had three other owners by the name of George Hodel bought who bought the home in 1945 um it says George Hodel was a genius and a monster born in 1907 in Los Angeles he impregnated the wife of a professor at a california institute of technology when he was 14 he earned a medical degree from the university of california in 1936 and worked

for the Los Angeles board of health where he specialized in venereal disease and illegal abortions hodel became known among prostitutes for to perform abortions according to the author Sheila Weller he quote desperate women strong sought him out providing him all sorts of ammunition against LAPD officers and their hookers he had blackmail on the cops and in turn protection from them George moved in here with his second home Dorothy Huston whom he called Dorio to differentiate her from his first wife Dorothy anthony shortly after their marriage in 1940 George was fascinated with the surrealist art and made friends with man Ray one of the country's leading artists in the data and surrealist moments while George

lived here the mansion was known for hosting wild drug fueled sex parties life at the hodel household was a nightmare for holding children which include Tamar and Steven George is known to have fathered 11 children with five different women over his lifetime like to me the writing is all over the wall like I agree and okay back to what you were talking about it being a rumor that she was potentially a lesbian there was a book I believe it was like from 2009 it was called like encyclopedia of unsolved crimes but it was talking about how her uterus was small and that basically someone had told the corner something that she wasn't having sex with men because she had like purportedly small genitalia and that's why she had sex

with women and that she frequented gay bars okay I did read that and I also read that a lot of the men that she was around she didn't necessarily have sex with them so she got a bad reputation for being with men but she supposedly never actually had sex with Robert Manley aka read but emotionally they he had an affair on his wife because he was with another woman and they left town and they went on a trip or whatever but like he they both said that they never had so I don't know if Elizabeth said it but read said that they never even had sexual intercourse but I could see where like that theory that she was a lesbian makes a lot of sense to me just based off of how she lived her life because what

if she was just like in a crisis like she didn't know what to do like probably wasn't wildly accepted at that time if at all and maybe she was just like living this wild life but like that would make sense to me right well the pictures of the house like the house was very grand but when I look at it it looks eerie to me and I don't know if it's just because of what we know or if it just like in general is eerie no I think it would be eerie like it gives me the vibes of if I walked into it without knowing what it was I would get very uneasy vibes and then I would figure out like what it was right it's been renovated several times some of the things are still the same I know that the original

people who designed the house are pissed off that they whoever bought it and I believe it was like 2001 maybe put the pool and the hot tub in the original designers of the house are pissed about it they said that was a mistake so it's just so interesting to but like to know so it says the home last sold for $4.7 million to a CBD magnet Dan Goldfarb who's using the pot the property for fundraising and events but it's close to book I just like it is a gorgeous home it gives me very like rich and eerie vibes I don't know it says that George Hodel was accused of raping his 14 year old daughter to tomorrow in 1949 and the scandal made front page news despite two eyewitnesses to the crime Hodel's wealth afforded

him top criminal defense lawyers and whatever other strings he pulled and George got off completely free there's just so there's just so much his son Steve wrote I think three books on this but I think it was said that it is mostly circumstantial but to me when you have someone saying oh well if I did commit her to commit the murder you can't you can't catch me now why didn't you investigate the death of his secretary more you know what I mean why didn't we figure out where he was going all the times that he left the United States and came back why didn't we charge him or question him when he came back for the final time in 1990 like there's just so much that you don't know and I think and actually

there's a podcast like his I believe it's his knees has a podcast it's called the root of evil and Steve is interviewed on there and they just they talk about so much there's there's so much to this case I would love to hear everyone else's thoughts if they have any other theories outside of Dr. George Odell because I just personally can't get past him I think that he was a very dark sick and twisted human being that lived a very dark and demented life and I wholeheartedly believe that he did it I also think that money plays a part in this case and corrupt law enforcement could it be that in those parties that he was having in that home that there are other people who were involved in this I because if he owes

things if he felt like LAPD own owed him things and then the Mark Hansen was one of the one of the suspects like maybe Mark Hansen went to one of his parties or maybe like maybe there were more people involved but then again I feel like if there were more people involved there would be more to this case because I do believe when there are multiple people involved it very seldom like goes all the way to the grave I don't think multiple people were involved when I hear that you know LAPD owed him or whatever it makes me think that people with money are connected in high places and maybe he had knowledge of things that were completely unrelated to this that could potentially reveal the corruptness if that makes sense you know

maybe it was more along those lines than just specifically relating to this my question and has always been my question is if you hear a recording of someone not confessing but basically confessing to something and there's no act off of that recording why like they didn't think that the screams and the cut the surgical cuts and him briefly dating Elizabeth Short was enough to search the property and maybe check the basement because I think that they said that it could have happened in the basement like I mean surely if he scrubbed the body with a with a coconut fiber brush that he probably also scrubbed the entire basement or wherever it happened but how did someone know to scrub her body with a coconut

fiber brush only she would know that you would know that let's hear let's I can't wait to hear everyone else's theories anyway I like I said this month is the anniversary of Elizabeth Short's death the 75th anniversary of her death on January 15th so Elizabeth Short is buried in Oakland California and her tombstone says daughter that's all it says it doesn't say sister Elizabeth Short July 29th 1924 to January 15th 1947 and again she was just 22 years old but I hope you guys take a chance to look at the the links that I used for this case and I would be curious to hear what everyone's theories are I'm very rarely interested in things that happened like so long ago or really like history related events just in

general but this case truly interested me far beyond what I thought it would and this just goes to show that people have been sick and twisted for ever and ever and ever if you guys have not followed us on at coffee combos podcast on Instagram make sure you follow us over there because the newness I am absolutely loving it just really I feel like we nailed it because it fits both of us so perfectly and if you guys have not subscribed to our show then make sure you do that either on the purple podcast app Spotify or any other podcast app and I hope that you guys have a great rest of your week and we'll chat with you soon.

Thank you guys so much for watching and I'll see you guys in the next video.