Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 42: Teen Mom OG’s Tyler & Catelynn Baltierra, Addiction, & Counseling

Episode Date: August 23, 2018

Kail & Lindsie catch up w/ Tyler & Catelynn Baltierra from Teen Mom OG! Tyler & Catelynn discuss their new cast mate. Tyler gives an update on where Butch is today. Kail shares how addiction causes her to be angry & asks advice on reconnecting w/ her mom. They discuss how difficult it is to parent your parent. Lindsie talks about expectations on relationships & how people don't all have the same abilities, & how she was forced to deal w/ emotions after having marriage issues. Lindsie says Disney creates unreasonable expectations for kids & how she struggles w/ perfectionism daily.  

Hey guys, welcome to Coffee Combos. I forgot all my shit, so we're just working with two mics and four people, and we have Caitlin and Tyler here. Hello, hello. Hi. Hi. Welcome back. Thanks for having us. Are you guys excited to be on in-person?

I am. Yeah. It's way better. It's a lot more personal in-person. This is better. I know. Whenever we interviewed you guys for the first time, I was like, I really wish that would have been an in-person interview. Yeah.

You know, but it's all right. We got kids, you know what I mean? We got to get in the phone sometimes. There are certain people, though, that I'm like, I could have cared less if it was an in-person interview. Yeah. And then when some of you are like, we wish that we were all together. It's hard at home, though, because the kids are a distraction when you're working. That would be at us harder. So it's hard. So, like, Lindsay's always like, oh my God, Kale, get your life together so

we can work together. But she has three kids, you know? Like, I only have one, so it's like much harder to wrangle three. Yeah. And plus, I have a five-year-old, so I can just be like, hey buddy, can you go watch a movie in the basement? And he's like, sure. See, that ain't like us.

How old is Nova now? Three and a half, three. Yeah. She's so cute. I can't decide who she looks like, though, really. Both of them. Like, some pictures I see of Caitlin and Tyler, and I'm like, okay, that's definitely Caitlin. Or I'm like, no, that's definitely Tyler. And then I'm like, nope, that's both. She's a good mix.

She's a good mix. I think so. Yeah. Do you guys look at pictures, like, at Carly at the same age and, like, compare them? They're almost identical. Yeah. I know. I saw that Carly at your wedding, and I was like, oh my God, there's twins. Yeah, totally weird. Twins.

We actually have a picture of Nova and Carly at the, almost on the same age, on a little shelf. And it is, literally, like, almost twins. It's really weird. That's so weird. That is awesome. My kids look nothing alike, and I think that people are like, are they even all your children? Yeah, but they're the same genetic makeup. You know what I mean? Right. Carly and Nova.

Like, you have... You know, I got three baby daddies, so obviously, none of them are gonna look alike. Yeah. It's fine. Yeah, but Isaac, I think looks just like you do. I do, too. Are you serious? He looks just like her.

No. Tyler always says that, though. I always say that. It's just the eyes and the dimples, but, like, his features are all Joe. I guess so. I don't think so. I think he looks just like you. I don't know. I just think it looks like you.

Just dark skin. Yeah. Huh. Okay. I'll take it. I'll take it. At least I look like I had something to do with one of my children being... Don't you hate that? All of them have the dimples, though, except...

Lincoln has one. Yeah, Lincoln has one. Instead of two. Oh, Lincoln. He's so cute, man. He's such a hero. He's like, do I do floss better in my bathing suit? He's obsessed with that. I gotta send him some clothes when that new collection drops.

Yeah. Yeah, do that. Macy sent us some TTM stuff. Thank you. The kids love it. So tell us what's going on with, like, y'all's collection or y'all coming out with fall stuff? Like, what's going on?

Yeah. Well, actually, that's a huge long story. So she kind of stepped back, let me design all this stuff. So I took over and then lace got back order, which made production got back order. Samples didn't get done made fast enough. So then we're kind of behind schedule. But we're tucking away. So we're trying to do merch right now, too.

And we didn't realize how long it would take. So we should have never told people, like, weigh in advance. We should have waited until we actually had this stuff. Are you designing the merch? We're trying. But we're not designers. Yeah, we're not. And we're not.

I ain't either. So I just jumped right in. But you're doing a good job. Well, it's a lot of work. People understand. I think it's different when, like, there's a difference between, in my opinion, like, having a clothing line or, like, having a merch line. Because you just put, like, I mean, you put a logo here, put a logo there, and you get

through catalogs. Like, you're actually designing. I mean, I'm sketching it. Going to the people, having to make a sample. If I don't like this inch shorter here, that hem needs to be dropped. You know, like, dude, it just gets. Like, yours is way different. Yeah, I feel like yours is, like, way different.

Because, like you said, ours is, we're putting, like, phrases on a shirt. You know what I mean? Like, how bad could you mess it up? You know? Oh, man. Well, it's like companies that could mess it up. Yeah. Yeah.

It's wild. So what else do you guys have going on, like, other than that? Well, I mean, I don't know. But did you guys move? Not yet. Not recently. Not yet. Our house is, like, seriously so close to being done that it's driving me insane.

Is it, like, another old Victorian, like, read model? Yeah, it's like 150 years old. Oh, that's amazing. And we've been renovating it for a year. Oh, wow. Yeah. And it's 15 acres. Oh, my gosh.

That's amazing. We have a horse. We have two goats. We have chickens. Oh, wow. That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. Are they Chelsea?

Right. All my neighbors are Amish. And so, like, I get, like, I see the farms and the horses and stuff, and I don't have to take care of them. So I'm thrilled. You can't even handle the frogs in your bag. No, the frogs drive me nuts. Like, I almost step on one every single day, and I'm like, this is disgusting.

Well, listen, our first pig roast, we're going to invite you. Pig, you guys have to eat your pigs. I'm coming, too. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to eat the pig. Absolutely. Bacon. Like, you're going to...

Bacon. Do you take it to a slaughterhouse? Yeah, I do myself. Oh, no, no, no. I'll take it. I'm going to raise a piggy, give it a great life, and then... Oh. I know.

That's what happens in real life. That bacon's going to be good. You know, I did not eat bacon until I was 18 years old. Why? Why? I was afraid of it. It just looks weird, like, it just looks really, really weird, but it tastes so good. How did you not?

I don't know. Like, something's wrong. I mean, I know something's wrong with me, but like... I mean, there's probably several things wrong. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, my gosh, that's so funny.

So, I want to ask you guys, because we've kind of asked everybody when we've done crossovers with OG, how do you guys feel about Bristol joining the cast? That was not a set up question. That was all me. That was all her. This is good. I haven't seen Caitlin and Tyler since, well, we went to dinner last night, but I hadn't seen them for like a long time.

Yeah. Oh, wow. So, I don't even... When was the last time? Probably the reunion special, like, New Year's party, but then I ended up leaving because I had luck with them. Yeah. That was a bunch of drama.

Balloon stabbing and whatever else. That was crazy. Yeah, that was the last time. But we only saw each other briefly, like, we didn't even, like, talk or catch up or anything. So... So, okay. Well, about that question. Do I have anything against her as a person?

No. Do I dislike her? No, because I don't know her. Right. Do I think it's weird that you're throwing somebody onto the original girl's story? Yes. Yeah, because I think when we talked to Macy about it, she was like, you know, if we were given the opportunity, of course, we're not going to, you know, turn it down.

But it kind of takes away from it being OG. Exactly. Also, like, nobody gets a call. And it's like, hey, we're making a huge change to the show. Like, this is what's happening. It's like, it hits the media before we even find out. Which I think is, yeah, which I honestly think that's the only problem I have with it is that the way that it kind of all got brought out in the media and stuff, it's like, you

know, we started a franchise, built it, sustained it for 10 years. You deserve the dignity and respect to let me know what's going on. And you're doing a major franchise shift that we help build creates the stain. So I, I feel like that's more of a respect thing. That's like the upper people, even like Ben or whoever was making this decision should have had the decency to call all of us. I think so. Even an email.

No. Hey, listen, the story's being broke today. We couldn't control it. Just letting you know. So we're not blindsided. Yeah. I think they do it like from a network perspective so that it doesn't get out until they want it to get out.

But at the same time, I do see like the respect thing, you know, like, hey, we built this and that's why you have viewership. So and hey network, you like your money? Okay. Well, you're welcome. So, so give me the respect and let me know when you're doing a major franchise. But also the thing is, is like, I can see like how you said, like they didn't want it to get out.

But the thing is, is we've worked with them for 10 years and nothing's ever leaked out. So you should be able to trust us enough that even if it was the day before it's like the day of. Right. Right. Right. Because she felt that way with Brianna. Yeah.

Of course. How do you know I'm not going to leak this stuff? But at least give me the opportunity to, I don't prove my loyalty, my faith, I'm not going to leak stuff out. Come on. We're all in this franchise together. We know how it is. Like we tell Kale stuff that we know is not going to get leaked out.

She'll tell us stuff that we know. You know what I mean? It's just a closeness. You got to keep it, you know. In the family. I think the problem is, is that all of the franchise is not that way. I mean, there's like a few hit or miss that might leak something. Well, I also feel like, I feel like team, I'm too little different.

Like you, your cast is a little split up. Like, you know what I mean? We're divided. A little bit divided. Yeah. Ours is different. I mean, the only division we had was fair, but she's out of the picture now. So it's great.

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Shoes are comfortable, stylish and sustainable and free shipping. Get yourself a pair today, Rothes.com promo code coffee. Get this deal while it lasts. I kind of, I saw just completely unrelated. I saw a picture that you posted of your sister and butch and you were like talking about family and stuff. So I know I mentioned this last time, but I kind of wanted to talk to you about your dad.

So how is he doing? Oh, he's doing great. Yeah. Yeah, he moved down to Texas. He went to rehab there. He's been, he did the six months of inpatient and then now he's on, I think what, month, I think month four of sober living. And he runs two groups a week.

He's like a speaker. Wait, did you say he moved out of Texas or down to Texas? Down to Texas. Oh, so he lives there? Yeah. So he went to rehab and he didn't want to come back because I was like, listen, Michigan has nothing for you. The only thing back here is all your old friends, old habits, all that stuff.

Well, he has family though, but we always, I told Ty, I said, well, that's only, we can go visit him. That's not like that's, you know. But he's doing great. He's running two different groups that he'll go and like do speaking and kind of testimonial stuff about his story. So he's, you know, doing a lot of service work, doing his meetings and staying sober. And yeah, it's the first time he's actually applied to 12 steps to his life.

Well, I love that you said that he did treatment for six months because I think that people, I've not, I've never been an addict, but in my experience seeing like my mom and stuff, like they think that they're sober or they're cured and, you know, a month or less and then they sign themselves out and it's all done and they don't apply the rest of the treatment. So that's amazing. Yeah. He actually, he was supposed to only go in for three months and they, they advise him like, listen, the way you are, you know, you, you know, you got 20 something years built

up of, you know what you're doing, manipulating wise, lying wise, whatever. So he ended up staying in an extra three months. It's hard to break like an old habit, you know, and like it's when it's part of your life. Well, that's what I was going to say. Like when it comes to addiction, like it takes years to form, like you don't just wake up one day and you're an alcoholic or a drug addict, like it takes time to build that. So it's going to take time to break it down and figure how do I live life sober?

How, what is normal life like without this drug, you know? So did you ever go periods of time without talking to him? And like what is, cause I just found that I had to cut my mom off completely. Like I got so, I'm so angry. And like now I'm not as angry, but now I'm starting to like, I don't know, like my third son just turned one and like my mom, I haven't heard from her. And so like I'm kind of like in my feelings about it. But like when I, when she was around, I would be so angry.

We would like fist fight everything. Like how do you not get angry when he, when he was under the influence? I think like, so for me, it was like, uh, for a while I was like that doll was angry. And I feel like after a while, I feel like I realized now as I got older and kind of like down the path with his addiction and staying close to him, because I really feel like the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It's connection with human beings and, and, and telling stories and, and you know, exchanging you know, things back and forth and being open.

So like with him, I was comfortable being angry. I think it was more of a comfort than like it was like a security blanket where I was easy to like, no, screw you crack head, whatever, just like vulgar spit venom. I call it, you know, it was spit and venom at him because it was easier for me. But I realized it was a defense mechanism because I was so comfortable being angry, but I was not comfortable being sad and saying, when I'm saying AU stupid ass crack head, whatever, I'm really saying, Hey, it's my little boy inside of me and her child saying, wow, I'm really hurt and sad that you didn't do what you were supposed to do for me.

So it's like, That's what I said to you about your situation. Yeah. I think it comes like, so what made me not so angry. I think it was just doing a lot of inner work and I thought it was all going to be have to be him. Like the reason why I'm angry is because you're an addict and you need to get sober and you're not doing what you're supposed to do.

But really I'm angry because I didn't deal internally with, with that kind of thing and also just recognizing that it's a disease and that I think a lot of people have a hard time doing that. I have a hard time with that. I know. I did too. And I don't have any sympathy or empathy or whatever you want. I don't have it for my mom.

And so like it's hard for me to like, especially now, like when I'm wanting to reach out to her and I want to have a relationship with her, like how, if I do let her back in my life, how am I going to handle it? And what does that look like? Am I going to be angry? Or how do I come to like terms with it? Like how do I accept that this is like, at some point you had to accept that your dad was going to be in and out, right?

Yeah. Or that he was trying and then when he relapsed, like you were going to be there for him. How do I decide that I can do that? I mean, with me, it was a lot of therapy, personal therapy. And when it got to the point of like, you know, like I'm going to accept my dad as an addict, there's nothing I can do to change it. I can't really change people's behaviors. I can only change my reaction to that behavior.

So instead of reacting to anger, vulgarity, spit and venom, I'm just going to react to the connection, love, you know, to support. I'm going to be there for you regardless, unconditional love, because unconditional love is unconditional. There's no conditions. Right. It's like we were children, right? It's just unconditional.

There's nothing you could do that can make me love you less. So I think kind of building that new relationship with him through that lens, that filter was so that he ever was under the influence around you. How did you act? Like how? I called him out. While he was under the influence or when he was sober? Well, when he was using dad, you're using, you go to a meeting today, what's, you know,

kind of just holding him accountable. But also I think about your dad, though, too. Your dad was honest with you if you said that he'd be like, yes, son, I am in a really rough place right now, you know, like he was honest with you. But it wasn't always like that. And the reason why it wasn't always like that, because he knew I was angry. So he didn't, see my job for my dad was to make him feel comfortable enough to tell me the truth, be open with me.

That's my responsibility. As far as communication goes back and forth, it's my job to say, hey, you feel safe enough to tell me the truth. I'm not going to freak out. You know what I mean? It's like, it's my job to do that for you. But you're such a strong person to do that because I feel like that would be very hard. Like I don't have a parent that has an addiction problem, but I feel like it would be very hard

to have to become the parent in the situation. Well, and that's what I feel like I was doing. I feel like I was taking on my mom's problems and it wasn't, it wasn't worse. So I already, now I have three kids. So how am I going to, and I just know how I was before. Is that going to happen again? I don't even know if my mom knows I had a third son. No, she knows.

I don't know. I don't know her. She knows. My mom doesn't have social media or anything. And she hasn't filmed since what like season two. I don't know where she lives. I don't have her phone number, nothing. So it's like, I want to start from scratch and like reach out to like her, my sister,

my sister's in Texas also, but I just don't know what that looks like. We were literally just talking in the cab, like on the way here. How do you find somebody that's like, and then just like not only look for my mom, but then also start a relationship with her when I know that she hasn't changed. See, I think, because I think before you do that, you need to change your person. If you go in there with this, or like knowing I'm going to be exactly, you need to almost go in there knowing like, I had to go to my dad like, okay, Tyler, you're going to ask him if he used, and if he says yes, you're not going to get angry.

You're going to come out of love and say, come out of support, do you want me to go to meeting with you? Do you, what do you need from me? Like what can I do for you? And it was super difficult for me because, oh, I just, anger was my first throne that I got on. It was, I felt powerful in it. I felt like it got the message across him, but really it just built this wall between

us that, you know, I mean it. So it was like me doing this, I was getting the opposite of what I really wanted by being angry. But then after a while, you were the one that brought it up to your dad where you were like, I think that you need to go get help, you know, wouldn't you like me to help you find a place? And he like broke down. And he wanted help.

Yeah. I don't think that my mom recognizes she has a problem or she does recognize and she doesn't want the help. Because I mean, it's one thing you can acknowledge it, but you might not want, you might not want the help. But see, that's not her. That's, see that her responsibility is to handle that, your responsibility and your job is if you want to, they should, but they're, then I'm going to come at you with love and

support and I'm not going to come at you spitting venom all the time. I think like accepting for who she is, if you want that relationship, but also setting healthy boundaries as in like, like with my mom, it's hard. I struggle with it too. Cause like my mom is an alcoholic for sure and always will be and like setting boundaries as in like, okay, if I'm around you and you start to drink, I'm just going to let you know that okay, I'm leaving and we'll talk about this at a different time or like basically my mom, I just told her, I don't want to be around you when you're drinking.

I don't want to see it. I don't want to witness it. And if you are, I'm not going to come around. I'll come around when you're sober and we can talk about it just like, and through therapy, you can figure out what kind of like healthy boundaries that you need to set to protect yourself really. And then, and that's again, taking accountability for what you're responsible for in the communication of relationship with you and the addict or whatever.

So it's like, it's this and so hard. All right, guys, let's take a break for a minute and talk about one of my favorites, FabFitFun. I really look forward to getting these boxes seasonally. I really think it's like Christmas. I love getting the full size products and there are a few that were in the last box that I am obsessed with and some of them have actually been in the boxes several times. The sponge gel, I got the papaya scent this time.

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I don't even have a dad. Like nobody from like even extended family didn't come. So like when I really sat down and was like, oh shit, like Lux, I don't have a family. It's like, do I want to reach out and open that can of worms or do I want to just leave it alone? You do, but she wouldn't be thinking of it, you know. What's your desire? What do you want?

I want my kids to have a grandma on my side. Okay. Yeah. So, but I don't know if I can handle. You have to take it like one step at a time, I feel like, I feel like you can't just like go into it with like major expectations and I think that you don't involve the kids until you know. I agree.

Right. Like how does that work? What does that relationship look like for you guys with Nova or even Carly for example? Well, how does that work? It was actually really rough because for a long time my dad was really good at hiding what he was doing. I thought he was staying sober. So we went on vacation to Puerto Rico, we let him watch her.

It was like, so that's when I got angry because then it was like, whoa. Like I, like, I trusted you, which he's never gotten high around like his kids or like his grandkids or anything like that, but still knowing that you were getting it, knowing you were using it at that time around that time. Yeah. Your mind, your disorder, your perceptions all messed up. So like, I was angry. I let him know I was angry.

He knew about it. And then instead of being like, you know what, that's it. You messed up. I'm out. And usually that's what I do. I'll just cut off. I had no problem not talking to you for years. I did all my whole life when you were in and out of prison.

So that's good of me. But then I thought, I'm like, what is that going to do for me though? I'm going to attack with all this, whatever, this defense, but I'm going to get the opposite desire because I know in five years from now, I'm going to be like, wow, I really wish my dad was around. So it's like, it's, I'm not going to make it harder for me. So I just was like, all right, I'm going to come at you love that filter. I had to keep like putting it in front of my face all the time.

And so he's always been around Nova. Yeah. So my kids don't really ask about my mom, but one time they asked if I had parents. Oh, that's so sad too, you know, I don't have a dad. Where did you come from? And I'm like, I lived in the mountains when I was a kid. And then they're like, well, where's your mom? Cause Isaac knows my mom.

One time he must have been three and I went to go see my mom. He's eight now. And I picked her up and she sits in the passenger seat and Isaac's like, mom, who's that? And my mom looked back at him and she was like, I'm your mommy's mom. So now Isaac calls her like mommy's mommy, like there's no grandma. There's no like, he doesn't, he didn't put two and two together like, okay, my mom is your grandma. Right.

It was mommy's mom. Do you want, do you want it more for your kids or do you want it for you? I want it for my kids because when my mom's sober, she's such a good person. I know. It's such, and it's just crazy because I'm like, like, she's a good time. And so I want my kids to experience that. But there was a time where I left Lincoln with her. He must have been, I don't know, six months old and she, when I came back and she was

so fucked up. And I was like, you literally have an infant here and you're fucked up. I think you just have to like start somewhere. Like you have to start building the relationship somewhere just at a starting point. And then you'll kind of know what she is capable of. Like there are certain things in life that people aren't born capable of doing. You know what I mean? I think there's a lot of people that have children that shouldn't, just because you're

a woman doesn't mean you should be a mother. Right. You know? And I think that a lot of people just, there's a disconnect somewhere. And you just have to go with what her capabilities are. And if she's not truly mentally and emotionally capable of it, then don't do it to your kids. Right. Like kind of go in with no expectations.

Yeah. Like don't have an expectation because if you set expectations, then you're going to be disappointed. Your kids are going to be let down. And you're going to go through, like you said, like you're going to go through ups and downs with it. It's not going to be, because I know you've told me before that you will quickly cut her off.

Yeah. You know? And I think that that's probably maybe somewhere in their childhood, maybe there was a disconnect somewhere with them as kids. You know what I mean? And maybe that's why they run to drugs or alcohol or you know, whatever it is, I don't know, but I think that you just can't have an expectation going into something that you don't know what the end result is going to be, because you don't want to set yourself

up for failure. That's crazy. Cause in, I think it was 16 and pregnant, my mom gave me that same conversation when I went to go meet my dad for the first time. She's like, you can't go with expectations. It's true. I think it's true because if you go, like, like, if I went into, that's what I did though. And I think the higher expectations I held for my dad, the more angry I got because you're

not meeting them. Right. Right. And it's almost like, Tyler, then who do you want me to do it for? You or him? And it's like, dang man, because I keep, like, I can't keep holding him to this, setting up for failure because me subconsciously setting up for failure, it just made it easier for me to cut off, cut off, cut off, which is my defense mechanism.

That's what I do. Boom. It's easier for me. Well, it's because it's to protect yourself subconsciously in a way, you know? Do you feel like you have like an expectation for your mom at all or not really? Like does she respect your boundaries too? Like does she know not to drink around you or like? She has broken my boundaries a couple of times.

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And like I'm in therapy now too. And like I brought that up to my counselor too about how, like, how do you stick to those and just stand strong in those boundaries, you know? Well, because I'm like, do addicts or alcoholics even have, can they respect boundaries? Yes.

When they're sober, that they're working on a program, yes. Because if not, then you're not going to have me in your life. You're not going to have your grandkids in your life, and when you're on your deathbed one day, that's your fault, not mine. Because a boundary is not a threat. A boundary is literally a circle that you do to protect yourself. It's not a threat like, hey, if you do this, this is going to happen, then you're going to, I'm going to do this to you.

It's more like, hey, if you do this, I'm going to do this so I don't get hurt. Right. It's different. And I think people confuse boundaries and threats, and it's not like that. Agreed. I think that's anything in life though. Like with every relationship that you have, you have to have boundaries and like what you can accept.

And I think that's one thing that you and I have talked about, that you struggle with just like all together. And I think it's because of your relationship with your parents, you know, that you just struggle with setting boundaries with people. It can be hard. I think it's also, when people come from lifestyles that we had, it's like, it's easier to cut off. I'm not just going to zzzz.

I got so mad. I'm out. Well even just like the show. Like I just get so cold. Cold. And like I come off as such a cunt. Like I think people forget that I just, I don't have a family, and so like I just come off very cold.

I don't know how to handle certain situations, and I'm so defensive that I'm just like, let's just put a poker face on and call it a day. But then also I cry a lot. So I'm like, I'm fucking mess. Okay. So it's time to update you guys on my progress with Beachbody. You guys know that I've been doing Insanity and I've been mixing that with a little bit of P90X because that's my go-to program and I've really enjoyed learning and seeing the

progress P90X for my abs for sure and Insanity definitely an increase in my glutes. So I've decided to follow your lead and try the routine too because I know that you've said that you did P90X for your wedding. So that's what I'm doing. I've noticed that my stomach is getting flatter slowly but surely. And with the 24-7 access to hundreds of exercise programs, anytime can be the right time. There's no reason to not get up and do this. You need as little as 10 minutes.

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All the workouts, the nutrition information and support is totally free. You can text coffee to 303030. Now let's get back to the show. I learned through my therapy that I tend to dehumanize people around me who don't meet my expectations, which is wrong because- And what do you mean? Dehumanize. You just blow it off.

Dehumanize. They don't matter. Yeah. Dehumanizing you. You don't have feelings. You don't have emotions. It's about me being angry right now. It's about me.

You're not doing what you're supposed to do. You're not pissed because you're supposed to be an object, not technically an object, but in our brains. It's how we, you know, like you just dehumanize them. No empathy. No empathy. No sympathy. You could be a little cricket, walk on the sidewalk, I smushed to get out of my way.

And that's damaging. I definitely have some of those traits. For sure. I know those traits. I can hear it in you when you talk. I can feel it. I know that. And I make jokes about always being self-absorbed, but I'm definitely self-absorbed.

Because we have to be. Everything's about me. But I think it's because nobody is about you. I think, you know, like, you know what I mean, I think, like, yeah, so like you force it for yourself. We had to coming up with our lifestyles, we had to survive them. It comes from your childhood, though, and the traumas that you faced growing up as a kid.

Dr. Drew says that when we could do the reunions and stuff. I'm like, I get so annoyed because I never associated my childhood with who I am today. Like I just didn't see the, I'm like, I'm badass. Like this might fuck my childhood. It didn't affect me. But now I'm starting to see it. It forms you. I tell you that I've done so much work, like with my anxiety and depression and PTSD and

all that shit. Like, it all comes from my childhood and my abandonment issues have come from my dad and I get scared of, he's mad at me, you know, I need to fix it because he's going to leave. You know, like, and it, like things that you go through in life will trigger stuff that you experienced as a child. And. It will. And it's what shapes everything, really.

Yeah. And they even said, like, you know, I've noticed like with Nova and things, like when your kids even get to certain ages, like you might not even remember a situation, but you can be triggered from your kids being that age because you went through something severe or just like a really traumatic experience. Make a panic attack. Yeah. Wow.

So it's really crazy how your mind will take things like that and do things to protect yourself or prevent people from getting close or yeah, because it's kind of like what we do to keep ourselves safe. Like, honestly, like you can't beat yourself up too much of being yourself absorbed because we were, it was required for us to survive. We were just being kids were coming into the world. You like, okay, listen, this is how the world works. I can't trust adults.

I can't rely on people. So I got to do things on my own. I got to cut people off when it gets scary or threatening. You know what I mean? It's like we do that. I just, I just survival and now that you get to a point as an adult, you got to realize that, okay, you know, we've survived. We're good now.

Yeah. But we made it. Yeah. Before you tell yourself like I am safe now. I'm safe. Why am I safe? Because I'm an adult. I create my own safety.

You know what I mean? Like, it's almost like going in and talk. Like, I, I still, it sounds weird to sell, but I go in and talk to my inner child at the time. I listen to Tyler. You're eight years old. You're not sitting there watching the decade beat to the ground. You're not, you know, freaked out at 10 or 11.

You're a grown ass man. You know you're safe because you provide that safety for you. And once I talk myself down, it's like, I can kind of like come at situations differently. Yeah. And a better perspective. Yeah. And I just open and clear. But has there any, has there been at any period of time where your mom was like sober

for one period? There was. My mom signed over custody of me to Joe's parents when I was pregnant. And then so right before that, she was sober for about nine months. That's the longest that she's ever been sober. And, um, but in that, my mom has always relied on a spouse. Okay. So she was sober, but also relying on someone who, you know, I, my mom's had so many people

in and out and I saw, started to see that pattern in myself. Like when something didn't work out, we're onto the next person because cut your cutoff and now we're going to move on. Well, how ironic. Right. And so yeah. That's all you knew. Yeah.

So now I'm like, this is the longest I've been not been with somebody and I don't want to jump in when I'm too not ready. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, because I feel like, and also with like with my dad and stuff and even with everybody like in relationships period, like I, they don't know how to love me. I got to teach you how to love me. I got to teach you how to treat me.

I got to teach you how to love me as a person. I got to teach you how to have a relationship with me. That's my responsibility. So I can't get mad at you because you didn't ask me how I was doing today. I didn't tell you that I had a hard day. So how can I, you know what I mean? Like, like, so with your mom, it's like you could, it almost, it's like, you know, you know, it almost takes a pressure off of her a little bit, puts it on you, which I know

it sounds like lots of bullshit. Because you fucked up. Yeah. I know. I know. At the end of the day, it actually, it actually gives her the freedom and space to be able to, you know, be open and honest and whatever with you. And then it gives you the opportunity to kind of like just sit with your shit.

All right, man. Like this is me. I'm an adult. I'm a woman. I'm not a scared little girl with my mom not around. I'm safe because I create that for myself. So I'm able to deal with this kind of crazy relationship or try to make it work or whatever. I think my parents went through a divorce whenever I was like five years old and I don't remember

any of it. But therapist have told me that I mentally blocked it out. Like I just, and I don't know how that's possible to do as a five year old, but not until I got married and started having marriage issues that I realized like it's like, yeah, like I start like things trigger and not until then did I realize, oh, wow, maybe you should deal with things that like you never dealt with in your life. And I think to have a successful relationship that you're going to have to. I just for a long period of time was like, okay, I cut my mom off and I'm okay with it

and I'm okay with her not being in my life. But now I'm like, okay, I have three kids. My sons, my youngest son is one. Am I ready to have a relationship with her again? Do I want to have a relationship with her? Am I okay? Am I going to be okay with it if she's not sober all the time? It's kind of like you told me before like about having kids, like if you have one, you'll

never regret it. But if you don't, there's a possible chance of regret. I feel like that in the same sense of your parents, like you're always going to have for whatever reason like that biological connection to like want to have the relationship. Like I'm sure Carly like wants that and will want that, you know, as as an adult, it's like you seek out what you came from, right? And that's just like a natural instinct to want to do that and you also want what you never could have.

Yeah. Yeah. That's how I have a problem with that now. Like even now I'm like, I always like, I want the person that doesn't want me, you know, right? Yeah. That's how my parents were. Like I needed my parents.

They didn't. It's like they didn't want me. I'm nervous because I'm like, if I try to reach out to her, what if this is crazy, but like what? I don't even know if she's alive. I feel like like it's been years, you wouldn't know because somebody in your family would know. I don't think so.

I don't think anyone in my family has heard from her. We were talking about like, how do you even start to like find somebody that you don't know? My dad either. Like I don't even know about my dad. Same thing. How do you? Cause what happened?

I'm just interested. I met my dad when I was pregnant. Yeah. So they filmed me meeting him on 16 and pregnant and he asked me to borrow $20 and it was just like super uncomfortable. I left. I ended up leaving. This was in Texas.

I flew down by myself and then I never spoke to him again. Like before that though. I never met him. I just didn't know him. Oh really? Okay. So I don't know this whole situation. I wrote parts of it in my book that I knew from like family, but my mom always like blamed

him. And then when I met my dad, my dad was like, your mom didn't even want kids. Like, I don't know. So like he fought for me and then didn't get me. So he left. I guess. I guess. That's the right thing to do.

Yeah. Like it was like one of those things where I'm assuming my mom made it so difficult that he was like, fuck it and left is what I took from it. And then my mom, why she fought for me. I don't know. Like clearly she just, I almost would have been better off with my dad. But you don't know because you don't know what life he led. You know, you only know what he's told you in the small amount of time that you've been

around it. Right. More than honestly, what do you, what do you have given you the love that you needed, obviously? He might have loved me different. Like my dad's not an alcoholic or a drug addict or anything that I know of. So I think it, maybe we would have been poor, but it, he would have been like someone emotionally. Yeah.

Where like did you get that from him when you met him? Like did you feel? No, I didn't get the warm and fuzzy. I was like, oh fuck, like this is not what I expected. I was like, oh my God, it's going to come rescue me one day. Like I'm going to have like this superhero dad that's going to come in when my life is fucked up and he's going to just make everything better. And then I met him and I was like, oh fuck no, this is not what I expected.

He's like, can I get $20? Right. And he's like, uh-huh. I was like, okay. Okay. So that, that, that kind of re, it's like, it's like, proof. All right. Kay, when things get rough, cut them off.

Yeah. I didn't, I never talked to him again. Yeah. I think it's because I think growing up like we did, you, you do create these unrealistic expectations and I learned that like, I'm like, well common sense is common sense. You take care of a kid, you don't do drugs. You know what I mean? Like it's common sense, but it's not because we can drink a glass of wine.

I mean, fine. We can, we can drink a beer, whatever. They have an allergy. It's that fucking allergy in their brain that, that they cannot. They can't stop. They cannot do it. I have drinks to get out of bed in the morning. Like she physically has to drink in order to function.

But they say the best way to get your hangover is drink a drink again. I don't know that my dad, my dad doesn't have a problem, I don't think. But you wouldn't know about just meeting him one time. But you could totally, you could hire like a personal like investigator. But like, what would I give them? I don't have a phone number. I don't have a email. She doesn't even know like.

I have a picture from my mom. I have a picture of my mom from 2009. Wow. And you said Lincoln, he was six months. Yeah, but I don't have. Yeah, that was, so he's almost five. Okay. So I've seen her.

Four years ago. I would say, yeah. Okay. Yeah. You have to go off the last lead you had. I mean, that's how the private. And she lived in Pennsylvania in the last time. That's how PIs work.

I mean, you honestly, public record, you ever go to Pennsylvania, state of government, whatever that kind of. That's what I was saying. Like maybe. That's what I did for my dad. Like what would be the last address on her driver's license or something. Because all that. What if she doesn't have a driver's license?

Because she probably. Well, I mean, she probably needs to have a government, some type of government ID. I mean, if you said if she, like she's an alcoholic, how she's got to go into the store to get it. Do they not idea? Well, well, honestly, dude, FIA, Freedom of Information Act, what is that FIA Freedom of Information Act. It's, it's, it's, we're all, we're all, we have access to a whole bunch of stuff, public

record, freedom of information that go to like maybe she could have like gotten arrested or something like. Right. Anything like you have her name. Like you have her date of birth. Like. Okay. Do you know her date of birth?

Yeah. You can start there. I think. I do. I can figure it out. I'm pretty sure she's gotten in trouble with the law. Yeah. Okay.

So there's. Oh my God. I have memories. That's horrible. Yeah. Really bad. For real. So I'm telling you that you can find her.

It's just, you know. It's going to be work. We should just go on a road trip. Yeah. That's what we were saying. Let's just do it all together. We'll just let it go. Just do it.

Kill the chaos. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. I just don't know like what it would be like if you found her. I don't know if my initial reaction would be like crying or anger or. You can't be angry. Just show.

Do I just show up? I guess you can. It's because it's, it's how you feel. So I guess you can. See if I were you like, I feel like people like us, we got to have a proactive plan before going to something. Right. Like I can't just like.

I have to go. So if I were you, I go to therapy. I would dive into like. While you're finding her. Maybe you can find her and just continue there and be like, well, okay. How am I going to react? Like, what are our emotions are going to come up for me? You know, you kind of like figure that stuff out first and work with a therapist close

on hand. Like, listen, okay. This is what I'm feeling right now. You know, they'll go through all the scenarios. Like I had to do with my dad is like, how do I approach him and say, you need help? I want to send you to treatment. I had to go with my therapist and okay, how are you going to react if he says this? How are you going to react when he says that?

And I had to literally, all right. And then I went in there more confident and I didn't, I thought I was going to be angry. If he said, no, I don't want to go to treatment, whatever. Right. I felt more confident because I had like a proactive plan of what I was going to do if he said this. I had all like, you know, the, yeah, the what is all figured out to a point. I mean, you can't predict the future, but like, I went in there more confident and then

it just, it was just natural. I feel like you have to get to a point where you can go to her if you found her and be like, I love you and I want you in my life, but I want you to get help. I'm afraid that she's not her. She's like fused with the person that she's with. Right. It's not just her anymore. It's her and her boyfriend.

Right. Like there is no just my mom. And that may be true. I just feel like if you go in there, like go, go in there prepared, but I think going, like I had an idea of going to my dad with forgiveness. I wanted him to know, listen, and I had to work way, long time to get to like, I really, I can say, oh, I forgive you, but to feel it in my, like I had to really work hard on it.

So I think going there, it almost takes the power away from them being able to like, because I remember one time thinking like, dude, like I got, like I got really precious energy. Yeah. My breath is really important to me. So I don't want to be wasting it, spitting venom in, in, in, in wasting all this, all this energy. So I'm going to take the power away from you by coming at you with forgiveness.

And it almost like just, it was, I don't know, it's kind of hard to explain. No, I get it. They say that's the best thing is like when you can forgive somebody else that you just feel a sense of relief from yourself, not even for them. It's like for yourself. Yeah. It's like letting all that just grudges and, because if you think about it, you hold it grudge, you're angry with them all the time.

Like that does a lot to you too. Like, I started getting exhausted. I was getting exhausted with the anger. I was getting exhausted. Like, oh, it was almost like, it's draining. It's draining after a while. When I have forgiveness and I come at it with peace of mind, yeah, it's like, just smooth, man.

I feel like the first thing we're going to have to do is go on the, what is it, FIA? FIA. We are literally talking about going on a road trip and like literally trying to like track her down. Like, I'm going to have this for like almost a year and see if anything, yeah, comes up on Google first. Yeah. Well, I have a private investigator in Michigan that I used, I was going to use for that little

passion project Reunited that I was going to do. So you could also find somebody in your area too or Pennsylvania in, no. But do you find somebody like a private investigator or like a bounty hunter? No, no. A private investigator. A private investigator. A PI. You want a PI.

Yeah. You want to use the FIA to figure out information. To figure it out. Okay. So anyway, you don't have to like get stressed out. Like they'll do it all. You got enough emotional shit to do. You don't have to worry about them.

So I guess like the next time the kids go with their dads, I'm willing to road trip. Yeah. I'm trying to go out. I'm telling you. I wish I could come with us. You're right. Have you thought about like seriously just like talking to somebody though to really figure out your emotional state?

I've tried therapy, but I'm like, how many times with how many people though? Oh my God. I've been in and out all my life. So has I. Like all my life. Did it just take you finding like the right therapist? Oh, you have to. And my stubborn stupid ass attitude against it.

Oh, you're saying Tyler and I are very similar. So when I was going through it, I was like, like they be saying something to me. I've like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. Exactly. I'm going to tell you what I'm, I'm going to tell you how, how this thing works. And all of a sudden I started, I got to a point, I was like, Tyler, this isn't working. Why? Because I'm not really English and control.

But do you feel like it was this specific therapist that made you get to that point? Or was it yourself? It was both. It was both. It was both. I mean, finding the right therapist is key because you're the, when you find the right therapist, you're going to know because you're going to think about them in real life. Like all of a sudden you won't be in this therapy session, you'll be like driving, going

to the grocery store. Something happens in your life. We're all like, oh yeah, don't ask. She said, oh, and then it's like, oh, wow. If you remember, yeah. And then it's like, okay, that's a good therapist. And then after that, it was like, I need to trust the process. These people went to school for a reason.

They know what they're talking about. I go into the stubborn attitude like, yeah, well, experience is more and I know what I'm talking about. That's me. That's Kale. And I don't. And there's a reason why I'm here because if I knew everything, I wouldn't be spending this couch talking to you.

This is true. But I feel like everybody just like in general in life could benefit from therapy, you know, like even people who don't. Absolutely. I'm pretty sure therapists go to therapy. They do. Oh yeah. The line does.

You know, they have to because they hear all of your problems and they're like, man, that person's so messed up. Like I need to get it off of me. That's true. It's very true. All right. Well, I mean, I think when I go home and the kids are with their dads next time, I'm going to start, start the search.

What type of therapist do y'all, like, is it like a specific cause you know, there's trauma therapist and you need to eat, which is different. Yeah. Like I see a trauma therapist. I don't see just see a regular counselor. Okay. Yeah. So see, I think that matter.

Look up. Look up in DR therapy. Kale said it. My traumatized. You are. Yeah. I think you have trauma in your life. I would agree with Dr. Drew completely.

I agree. Let that annoy you. Sit with it for a minute. Let the sufferers die down a little bit. I'll never say Dr. Drew is right. I think he's right every time when I watch all his reunions, I'm like, he's spot on. And I know that it when you're sitting on the couch, I could imagine how it would feel because you're feeling like you're called out publicly in front of you and then they're

going to air it. I feel like you would be more receptive to having the conversation with Dr. Drew if it wasn't televised, but your natural instinct is defense, you know, like, let me defend myself because I don't want everybody to think I'm so messed up, which I am. You know what you know? I feel it's like if you think I messed up, guess what? I am messed up, but I'm going to fix it. Right.

And I'm everything. It'll be fine. But the thing is, is y'all own it. You know, you have to. You have to. And I feel like that's the place that you've got to get to. I mean, I do own it. You own it.

But in some aspects. Right. You own it in a dark little corner. You need to set some light on that corner a little bit. Because you know how many people that, I can't imagine how many people that y'all have helped from just as much light as you shed on everything, everything, like everything in your life. Like it's so honest and real and you're so vulnerable. And that takes a strong person like to get to that point because I can tell you just being

on reality TV, I don't know how y'all have done it for 10 years and still survived. And you're still together and you're still strong and you've helped your parents. And like, I look at the situation and I'm like, as kids, it's not our job to help parents. Right. We're not the parent. We're not the parent. That's true. That's not the, that's not.

It's true though. When we were brought into this world, it's like, why? But see, my whole thing is that I did a lot of it. It's not fair. It's not fair. Well, life just ain't fair. Right. I got dealt a short end of the stick.

So I'm going to build a house with this little stick. Right. Okay. You got to play with the cards. The whole stick. Right. I'm going to, you know, whatever. So I mean, it's, it's.

I saw something on social media the other day and it was like, you can't choose your cards. Like play the ones that you were dealt, you know, and that's so true. Like it's. There's actually, there's actually a really good quote that I just, I really love. It was a man can never discover new oceans if he never leaves a shore. Right. Right. And it's so true.

You had to let that. But this podcast when we think there's import here on there's this, like, which is this big city that we're by. Well, I want to call it big. I call. For us, we're in the middle of nowhere. It's the biggest city there. Yeah.

But there's this like quote and I drive by it a lot and it reminds me of like myself and like Tyler and like things that we've been going through lately. And it says it's, it's easier to raise a child right than it is to fix an adult. That's so true. That is. And it's like, it hits me every time because I'm like, God damn, like with all this shit I'm going through right now. And I'm like, you gotta.

And honestly, we, as parents, we have a responsibility to show our kids this is how you deal with broken relationship. This is how you fix things. You don't, you don't hide with the anger and to sit with it all the time because it festers you. This is how you go about fixing things and mending things. And sometimes you go in there to fix it, to understand it. Hey, we're not going to work together.

I should not cut you off, but choose to. And that's healthy for them to see that. And that's healthy for kids to see too. Yeah. So do you guys feel like with Nova that you're, do you guys like try not to let her see all of like the negative and like the problems in the sad or are you just like very. Open, open. I mean, I think that we're kind of a balance, I guess.

Yeah, I guess because she's like, she's the only three, but like if I'm crying or something, she's like, mom, don't cry. Don't cry. And then that just breaks my heart. Right. But even like, you know, people like my counselors said to me that like, children actually need their parents like that. And then you explain to them like, yeah, mommy's sad right now, but it's okay.

Like, I'm okay to have these feelings like, because it teaches them that it's okay to be. Yeah. And that's they're going to be okay. Well, mom, mom, mom, I'm always crying. Yeah. Mom always cried and she just kind of got strong. But if you say, hey, yeah, mom's sad right now or dad's really sad right now, but this

is going to pass because I love you and you're in my life and you hug them and like, oh, like, you know, so it almost validates them so they don't feel inadequate when they feel the rise of emotion. I say like, Disney has created unrealistic expectations for kids lives. You know, it's like, you watch these movies as little kids and it's like, that's what you think that you're going to have whenever you grow up. And then the cookie just doesn't crumble that way. And you're like, wow.

The cookie completely crumbles. And you're like, oh, fuck. That's funny. You mentioned Disney because Nova's been into this. Like I read her this beauty in the beast book. And at the end of the book, you know, the beast turns into a boy. And she's like, well, why? And I, and then I'm explaining to her, I'm like, this is really messed up because I'm

like, well, because she loves him and her love changes him back into a boy. And I'm just like, God, that is so incredible. Yeah. And then I go now, I'm like, yeah, but she loved them as a beast. Like you don't have to be a good looking dude. Yeah. I know. It's kind of crazy.

Damn Disney. God damn it. I just feel like, I don't know, you watch these movies as kids and you watch, you know, like even birthing stories and lifetime movies and whatever. And you're like, oh, that's how life's supposed to be. And then it's like, not that at all. No, it's not. We're kind of open with Nova.

We're very, and we kind of made the decision raising our kids. Like, you know, it's just more open, the more transparent we are, the more they're going to soak up and learn instead of trying to, I don't want to teach them how to dodge things, go around, like avoid it or be super cold, you know, feel comfortable in that. I want to teach them how to just go right through it. Right. Okay. And you're not weak if you cry.

You're not weak if you, you know, you're mad or whatever. I feel like whenever, because I went through public divorce filing and I feel like I, my little one was so little when that happened that they don't understand, you know, like what divorce is or, you know, whatever. And you try to be so perfect and you kind of just get to the point where you're like, that's setting them up for failure as well. Yeah. You want them to see you in a vulnerable state.

You want them to see that, that's normal because when they go out looking for something, they're going to try to find that perfect that's not there. Right. Exactly. We're human. It's okay to be human. It's okay not to be okay. We're human beings.

Yeah. We deserve that. And it's like, it's okay if you cry and you have emotions. It's okay if you're in a bad mood. It's okay, you know, you don't have to be perfect and on all the time. You see these people out here that are on all the time, like always perfect and you're like, that person is really sad inside. Oh, yeah.

For them to put on that kind of crime. Not only that, but they're fucking irritating. No, they fucking are. Come on, man. I need you to like swear once or, you know, do something stupid. Tell your kid to get the fuck away from you or something stupid. Like relatable. Like stop.

Yeah. I've suffered with that being like the oldest child, you know, the oldest of five and just like feeling like I have to be perfect. And I feel like we, Kale and I work so well together because things that are positive for me are good for her and things that she's like good at are good for me. And like, I don't have to be perfect all the time. Who do you think made you feel like you had to be perfect? I think that my dad just had such a high expectation for me in life.

Expectations. I'm telling you, I think also having younger siblings, I put it on myself too that you have to be an example. You have to be the best. You know, you can't fail. You have to get the college degree, you know, as a first generation college student. First, you know, first to do everything. So I think not only just my parents, but just my personality.

Well, that's the birth order. That's the birth order too. The oldest is like usually the go-getter. I feel like. Yeah. And I think just putting that pressure on yourself and having such a high expectation for yourself. Obviously you want to set expectations for yourself because that holds you accountable.

But at the same time, not so high that you can't. You lose who you really are. Yeah. You lose who you are. Normally, obviously like we forgot equipment and, you know, whatever. That was definitely my doing. But when we first started podcasting, that would have driven me nuts. But now I'm just kind of like, okay, like I'm trying to figure out the plan.

You know, I'm like, okay, Kale, it's okay. Don't stress out. We'll figure it out. I'm so like frazzled, hair brained, wild hairs up my ass, like fly by the seat of my pants if we forget shit, we're winging it. Yeah. And Lindsay's like, no, fuck no. Yeah.

We've got to figure out how we're going to get it. But it just, I don't know. I've just learned like over this past year doing the podcast that everything's not going to be perfect and it's okay if you have a mess up. So make sure your kids know that too. Yeah. And your kids have to know that. Like if you go to school and you have a bad day, like obviously I don't want you punching

some kid out. But if you go to school and you have a bad day, then it's okay. We're going to talk about it. We're going to get through it and we're going to try to be better tomorrow. You're allowed to have a bad day. If they attack you, then go for it. My parents taught me growing up. Well, my dad said, if anybody ever like wants to fight you at school, make sure that they

hit you first, but you better be the last one standing. Oh, I see. We're told the opposite. Don't ever let them hit you first because that one first could, that one knocked them out. They're not going to stop. So our thought, oh, you want to throw? Okay, let's do it.

All right. You ain't going to hit me for that right now. Don't my dad's like from legal purposes. Let's see, it's so funny. Our family was like, no, man, you better throw the first ball. Yeah. That's so funny. Well, it was so nice having you guys in person.

I just feel like, I don't know, like when I watch the story, it's just, I don't know. I just, I don't relate to it because I haven't lived the life. But when I see it, I know how many people it's helping. And I just think that it's so amazing. You guys are just awesome. And I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for coming on Coffee Comments.

We appreciate it. Let's have us, let's do it again. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. All right, guys, that's it this week for Coffee Combos. Make sure that you follow us on Coffee Combos podcast Instagram at Coffee Combos podcast. If you have not given us a five star review on iTunes, make sure you do that. We appreciate them.

Any comments or direct messages, we try to read as many as we possibly can. We will talk to you guys next week. Bye. See ya. This podcast is brought to you by Weave Podcast Network. Check out all of our shows, including the Brain Candy podcast, I Don't Get It, Babes Coffee Convos, and let's talk about it.