Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 74: Abducted in Plain Sight, Advocates, & Lemons to Lemonade

Episode Date: April 11, 2019

Kail & Lindsie talk about fears of parents. They talk w/ Emily Kincaid, producer of Abducted in Plain Sight about the film. They talk about the story & producing a true crime documentary. Kail & Lindsie share the same feelings about the parents & their religion. They talk about the state of denial & how could it have been possible for the wife not to know. The hopes is to encourage victims to come forward. They talk about having the conversation with your kids to protect themselves.

Hey guys, welcome to coffee combos. Hi Lindsay. Good morning. How are you? I'm good. I've never been better. I have also never been better. I got a really good night's sleep last night. I really like your sweatsuit. Thank you. Love me like pizza. I feel like it's so relatable right now. Oh for sure. Everybody loves pizza. So that's great. I feel like Will doesn't love me as much as pizza. Well, you can eat pizza in that sweatsuit and then maybe he will love you as much as he loves pizza. No. Okay. Because Will would eat pizza literally every day of his life. Same. So much same. So today I wanted to talk to you about parenting because we're both like kind of doing that, you know. Yeah, a little bit. And since our

audience is probably a lot of parents, wouldn't you assume? Yeah. And true crime is so huge right now. The level of fear that I think social media, the news, Netflix, all of the things that all of the things and people just wanting to understand situations when they hear about stories. And so that we like know how to also deal with things. I just feel like in today's world, it's so different than like whenever our parents were growing up. Well, the media is huge, right? So I feel like the media, social media, all of these things have an effect on how we parent and the level of fear that we feel in, you know, that surrounds parenthood. So we don't send our kids out on bike rides, you know, and

just say see you later anymore, you know what I mean? Because and we can't let our kids, you know, like we talked about on another episode, like the Momo thing, like we're now looking at our kids' tablets and we're scared of like what people are putting like the bugs that they're putting on YouTube videos and stuff like that. And so I feel like that has a lot to do with, you know, how we parent now. I definitely agree. And I feel like you just said tablets, like in the 70s, there was no tablets. There was no tablets. There was also no Netflix or Instagram. Netflix and chill. There definitely was none of that. There was none of that going on. So I just feel like parenting has changed so much. And

we have to realize that it's not the 70s. And I feel like a lot of like our parents generation, they try to like tell us how to parent. But when they were growing up, things were so much different. And so certain things that we can kind of have like a better understanding of that they don't really get because we have lived through it, you know, like it's changed over time and technology is so available. It heightens fear. And it also with heightening fear, it is like a preventative measure because it causes awareness. Exactly. It causes awareness. It makes us like think of all of these things and like what could happen and what would you do in those certain types of situations. And like an example of it would be the Me Too

movement, right? How people came together, be together and exposing these people for things that they're doing. And it makes you think as a parent, okay, if I was in that situation, like what would I do? Right? I feel like back then people swept a lot of things under the rug, right? So 100% because I remember we talked about a few episodes ago. It could have been a long time ago. I can't remember. But remember when we talked about how I was questioning, was all of these things that happen that we hear about? Was it going on as much right then? Right? What is now? It's kind of like the divorce thing that I talked about, right? So like people now we're not really getting married and it's

so easy to get divorced and walk away. But back then people would literally put up with anything and so much would go on and they sweep it under the rug and they stay married and their families stay intact. Right? And I just feel like for us, because we've grown up in a different time that we don't really understand that it's like, okay, you do this to me and I'm out, you know? So we don't really get it. And it is 2019. We're worried about our kids. And there was a show that was on Netflix, a documentary that went viral went viral. And I told you about it whenever I watched it. And I was like, Kale, have you watched it? Everyone asked me like it was on Twitter. You must have sent it to me the

same time it was going around Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. And I was like, I'm not big on like the trend. So like, I'm not going to watch the things that everyone else is watching because I just am so annoyed. But this was so talked about that I was like, what the fuck is going on? Like I need to see what everyone's talking about. So if you guys don't already know what we're talking about, which you probably do, it's abducted in plain sight. Literally when I posted about it on my Instagram, it was probably one of the most engaging things that I have ever posted on my Instagram and the history of Instagram. All of the questions were the same exact questions that I had. Yep. So I'm like, Oh, wow, like, how did these

people like not get it together? You know, like how did these people as parents like not know? I don't know. I'm I have just as many questions as you do. So we have decided to invite on the podcast. She's an actor, a publicist and the producer of abducted in plain sight Emily Kincaid. Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. Oh, we're excited. I have several questions. But go ahead if you want to start if you have anything you want to start with, before we jump into our needing. We just want to grill you. Yeah, we really just want to pick your brain. Go ahead. Oh, I'm ready for it. I guess the first question I have is how did you hear about the story? Like was I did watch it? So I know that the

girl what is Jan wrote a book? Did you hear about it after she wrote the book? Or did you kind of already know about it? No, so one of the other producers Stephanie Toby, she was working for a talent manager in LA and I had just moved to LA. And she actually knew Jan the victim and had the book in her office. And Stephanie read it and was like, how does this happen? Like how does this happen? You know, and so she got in contact with Jan and said, I think that this needs to be a movie or a series or a documentary. And Jan was already working, you know, going around and doing like kitchen. Yeah, well, she was she was doing different events to, you know, make people more aware of sexual

abuse and manipulation and grooming. So she it was definitely something she was already interested in. And then I came on board and we found out extremely fast that the book left out a lot of details. So had you produced stories like this in docu series or documentaries prior to or this was the first time producing something like this? This wasn't my first time producing but definitely producing something true crime like this. Got it. Okay. Wow. And we had talked about it earlier. How did you feel being a producer producing something like this knowing how uncomfortable like, were you totally uncomfortable, mind blown, like walk us through what it was like producing something to this. Yeah, it was challenging

at times for sure. You know, we all of us were deeply affected by the story. And you know, there were times where we had to take a little bit of a break, understandably so and take, you know, a break back from the project because it was, you know, we were all kind of emotionally involved in all of these people's lives at this point, and it was a lot to sit with. Yeah, no, that was definitely one of my questions was like, how do you hold your composure for something so deep? Yeah, right. So like, I have the chills just sitting here, like literally covered up in chills. So I don't know how I would be able to sit there and listen to the stories. Yeah, it was challenging. Yeah, I think, you

know, I am sure you'll have questions on this. But a lot of people have asked us like, what was it like, you know, witnessing the parents talk to us about their sexual affairs with Birchtold, you know, as well. Right. And it's hard because, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's so shocking, you know, but you also do feel badly for them at the same time. Like I felt not bad for them at all. Right. To be perfectly honest. I didn't feel bad for the parents. I couldn't wrap my head around the naiveness, I guess. Is that a word? I just don't understand. And, and again, maybe just because the times are different, because I'm trying to, to keep in mind that this was a long time ago, you know, so the times have

changed. But nobody's going to come up in my family and literally finesse the entire family. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, or maybe you have different feelings, but I do feel like their religion had a lot to do with it. Yes, I completely agree. Because they were St. Latter, what is it? Yeah, yeah, Church of Latter-day Saints Mormon. Yeah, I mean, and that's another thing that, you know, people have questioned like, you know, why didn't we go more into, you know, them being Mormon and how that affected their decisions and really to answer that it was, you know, because of budget reasons, you know, if we had had all the budget in the world, we probably would have made a mini series, you know, for

years that would have touched on, you know, their religion, and then the years that he spent grooming them, but we just didn't have that kind of time. But yeah, I do think it, it was one of the biggest, you know, pieces of the puzzle that led to all of this happening was their religion. I think, but what about your religion would make this be like, okay, you know what I mean? Like what? Well, I think a huge part of it would be, you know, keeping it within the family, right? So they wouldn't want to be shunned by their religion. They wouldn't want to be judged by the outside. I definitely hear where we're both of you, especially as mothers are coming from, I'm not a mom, but I have a sister that has two

children and I know a lot of people that have children. So I completely understand where you're coming from. You know, there's part of me that definitely looks at the parents and says, how did you ever let this happen? I can't ever imagine it. If I had kids, there's no way I would ever let an adult male take my child and go on any adventure alone, you know, I would be there or somebody else would be there as well. Just naturally as a mother, I question why would an adult want to take my child to go and do these things? I know that would be like the first question of why do you need to be around my little kid? Okay guys, so I don't know about you, but

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month of personalized care of vitamins visit takecareof.com and enter coffee 50. The documentary did touch on the fact that Birch told had his own children and was married, right? So did his wife know the extent of what was going on? Do you know? So we did reach out to Gail, who was Birch told's wife to see if she wanted to be a part of the documentary. And she declined and understandably. So why would you want to live through that nightmare again? It's like you lived through it real time. Right. Why would you want to? Yeah, exactly. She's moved on with her life and and hopefully she's living a wonderful life and has been able to separate from this a little bit. But

you know, we have all questioned, like, did she know about it? I mean, you find out later that he had done this to other children. So how could you be married to someone and not know that they're, you know, praying on little girl? Like a football coach that coached like at Penn State or something like that. Yeah. And I think his wife also knew, but it was like a something that she didn't want to believe. Right. And so it's like, you're in denial. So maybe it was like a denial. Yeah, but I mean, she, she had to know to some degree. I mean, where are you going when you have five children or five children, right? Yeah. And a wife at home, like where are you going

and you're spending, you know, significant amounts of time with other children with another child? You have to know, right? But, um, and she knew about the affairs that he had with because I want to say, didn't it say in the documentary that, um, he slept over four times a week for six months? Yeah. So it's like, would his wife not doing, doing his therapy, right? You know, that's brought up in the doc. Um, yeah, he, he would, you know, do this therapy and he would lay on top of the bed next to Jan, um, you know, and do this therapy that he, he said his therapist recommended to get over some childhood trauma. I'm sorry, but I don't think any therapist is telling a child that was molested. Yeah.

A person that's molested at four. Of course. And they ended up finding out that, you know, his license had been revoked. So it wasn't even accurate. And, you know, who knows what we're really on the tapes that he was listening to either. Um, but yeah, it's, it's the whole thing still blows my mind a little bit, even working on it for five years. You know, I Oh, wow. Yeah. It's been, yeah, it was a long, long journey to get here. Five years. Yeah. So it was in production for five years. Yeah. I mean, we, you know, we filmed a total of 25 days, but over the course of time, because it was really like only a couple years, but you know, then we had, you know, we had pre-production, post-production, then we did the festival

circuit and then we tried to sell the film. But you know, these interview days were extremely long, you know, and in order to emotionally taxing. Yeah. Emotionally taxing for the people doing the interviews and, you know, the entire family. And I think witnessing people say something that they've never maybe said out loud before. And it's not just something casual. Right. It's, it's, it's a huge, you know, it's a huge thing to publicly say. It took a lot out of everyone. I can imagine. I will say, okay, another question that we mutually had was, okay, you start the production for this. Did the family, mostly the parents, did they have any reservations of wanting to do this, knowing that it was going to be

so public and knowing that people were going to shame them? Well, I don't think that anyone, when we started this out, nobody knew really what we had. And we knew the story was really crazy. And we wanted to raise awareness, you know, for sexual abuse and, and, and kidnapping. And, you know, we wanted to hopefully save a child's life in some way and prevent this from happening in the future. But I don't think any of us knew that it would blow up to the degree that it has. So I think there definitely were reservations for the family going into it, you know, how are we going to be perceived and, but I don't think anyone knew it would get to this point. Right. That was definitely a question that I had for sure.

I mean, and then, you know, they've definitely been beaten up on social media. Yeah, Twitter has been, you know, I mean, I beat them up. So, you know, I kind of, I can't really disagree with you there. I mean, I definitely am like, what the f? Yeah, the f. Have you reached out to them since you've done it? Or how do you know how they're feeling since? Yeah, well, the father actually sadly passed away right before the documentary came out. So in a way I'm, that was probably for the best. Yeah, I'm happy that he didn't have to witness all of that because I'm not really sure who's been getting it the worst him or Marianne Jan's mother, but both of them have gotten a lot. And I think that Bob, her father carried

a lot of shame with him his entire life. And he took that, you know, with him. And I think in order for him to feel some kind of peace with himself, and this is just what I believe he had to get put it out there, put it out there. It's almost like I wrote a book and I felt like it was therapy. So once I got it on paper and I was kind of done with it, it was like peace of mind. Right. So maybe closure. Yeah. So maybe for him, it was similar, you know, um, I think watching the documentary, I could see that he carried a lot of guilt and definitely regret. You could just see it all over his face. And so in that aspect, most uncomfortable, right? And in that aspect, I'm like, I did feel sorry, but as overall

I'm like, what the hell is happening here? But part of me and correct me if I'm wrong, um, the scene where he's in the car and be asked if he can relieve him. Mm hmm. Part of me also felt like in just the demeanor of the documentary that he was in a sense molested by him. Yeah. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Oh, I 100% do. I mean, I think that be manipulated and groomed the entire family from start to finish for sure. Okay. Yeah. Because I just, I couldn't understand, um, as a straight man, how that would transpire. Do you know what I mean? Yes. It's, it was just a little odd to me. And then at that point of the documentary was where I was like, okay, this man must have been an extreme

master manipulator had to have been to be able to convince a straight man, a father, a husband to do this. Yes. Do you feel like there was maybe more to that story? To that part? Was there more because y'all couldn't go into right? There wasn't more information that we were given that we left out. But do I think that maybe there was more to that story than we were told? Yes. Okay. But we probably will never find that out. Okay. So I know we've talked about this a million times on the podcast, but we love quip. And if you haven't tried it yet, now is the time. These toothbrushes are a game changer. I bought them for my kids this past Christmas. And they're so much better than the manual ones

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and it shows up at your door. It's so easy. My favorite thing about quip is that it lets my kids know when to switch sides when they're brushing their teeth. So they're five and nine and they need a lot of help brushing their teeth. So that works really well for us. So that's why I love quip and why they're backed with over 20,000 dental professionals. Quip starts at just $25. And if you go to get quip.com slash coffee right now, you get your first refill pack for free with a quip electric toothbrush. So that's your first refill pack for free at G. E. T. Q. U. I. P. Dot com slash coffee. One question that I actually was asked to ask you was if the family has ever expressed

to you maybe like a sense of regret of how nonchalantly they talked about things. Because it does come off very I mean obviously like we said before like this has to be so hard to talk about. So it wasn't easy and it was long days and we know how that goes but the viewers don't. Right. So it does come off very nonchalant. And I do I've seen that be asked a lot of times on social media and try and watching it from kind of an outsider's view. I completely see what you mean. Like very monotone. Right. But what the viewers aren't seeing like you just addressed is these long, long grueling days of you know emotionally tax tax. Yeah draining days because I was going to say you

know if this is really like you said you wrote a book and after you wrote it down on paper it was almost like you got closure from that. Yeah. I think they were probably from an outsider looking in. I don't know because I'm not on the production side but I would think that if this is sometimes maybe like the first time they're talking about stuff out loud they're processing their feelings as well and it's probably trying to maintain composure for the interview. Yeah. And also having to go through all of those feelings while they're doing this. Right. Also knowing that an audience is going to see this. I mean I've had to recreate things in my life for TV and I'm my emotions then are completely

different than the first time they were addressed. Right. Right. So like I said I get it but the viewers are like why are they talking about this like it's no big deal. Right. And you also have to remember how much time has passed. Right. I don't think that either. No. It like so much time had passed and I really think that they were at the point in their life where they felt like it would be wrong for them not to admit to what they had done and what it had led to. Sure. Right. In hopes that somebody else wouldn't make their same mistakes with their children. Right. So part of it you think was also them truly having compassion for other people who have gone through things or awareness. They wanted to create

awareness for. Oh they definitely parents. Oh for sure. I mean I mean that's what Jan lives for. You know I mean she is an advocate. Yeah she's a victim and she's an advocate and she you know she and her mother Mary Ann you know have both tried to change laws to help victims be able to come forward even if 10 years have passed since it happened because you know there are limitations to that. Exactly. So if you don't if you don't you know report it right away it is gone later you know. So they've worked to try to change that. So I think that you know their way of handling the guilt has been always to try to help other people. Right. Right. That was a question that I got to was like what was the main purpose

of them coming out about their story. And I mean I couldn't agree with that. I mean Jan has a huge story to tell. People were asking me if it had ever been suggested that maybe she had Stockholm syndrome. I mean she was a really you know she was 12 years old. She was manipulated and at 12 a grown man comes in manipulates you and at that age this is like the first man that's showing you romantic attention. You think about being 12 years old right. Like let's rewind it back. I mean I can't even put myself back there. It's crazy. It's like you're going through puberty possibly like getting your period. Everything's like changing. He manipulated I think so well and so precise that I could see how that could

happen. Yeah. I could 100% see how that could happen and maybe attention maybe she liked the attention that she had never had and she didn't really know how to express those feel you know it's like she knew that she liked it but she didn't know that necessarily it was wrong. Right. Right. But she was also you know not to go into too much for the viewers that haven't seen it but you know she was kidnapped but she also thought that Birchtold was also a victim. Right. Right. Because of the. Yeah. Right. So you know she felt safe with him because in the time that he had groomed the family you know this was two and a half years of grooming before all of this happened which you don't see in the film which is why

I think people go how do you get from A to B so fast but it actually wasn't that fast. It had been a long time. So this is somebody that she saw as a father figure as someone that she trusted as somebody that she loved immensely and looked up to. So nowhere in her mind especially at 12 years old would she think that this man was doing what he was doing to her. Right. Right. You know. Because I think about you know I also watched Leaving Neverland. Yeah. And I picked up some similarities there because the boys that had been interviewed for that documentary I was very confused in the sense that even as adults when they were talking about it it almost one of the one of them seemed as

if he enjoyed even what happened to him even though he knew he was a victim. You know it was like he just wanted to be around Michael. So I think it's hard for us to judge as people that like that hasn't happened to you. It's hard for us to see it because we look at it from the outside looking in and we're like oh wow like how would you not know. Right. But it's like until you've been there I think you just can't relate. And I mean you find out in the documentary I mean she does fall in love with him. Right. I mean I can not easily put myself in her shoes at all but I think of if you're 12 and this man that you look up to and love and then you're kidnapped and told this insane story and you're only

12 okay you know and you're being drugged and you're being molested but you're being told that this has to happen in order to save your family then you believe that. Right. You know. The question about the being drugged because from how I saw it she was being drugged did she realize that she was being molested or was it like a. I think she had it like a revelation she realized but didn't is that right because she said like there was a point where they were on the trampoline outside maybe and you know her underwear was down on her ankles and she said that you know she thought it was weird but there's no way he could have touched her but then once she gets kidnapped. But remember these are also

coming from Jan now or you know over the process of five years. Right. These are things that it's taken her a lot of years to come to these you know realizations about all of this. Probably it's like repressed memory. Well that's what happened to me when I was writing and I there was a ton of stuff that I didn't even put in my book and I talked to my family afterwards and they were like oh what about this this and this and I was like like I vaguely remember that you know what I mean you're like oh and then I watched the keepers. Oh yeah that's incredible. There's a lot of repressed memory there like there was a lot of things that it was like triggered memories and so it's like traumatic experiences that you've

had in your life that causes repressed memory because I tell people all the time they ask you know like about my parents and they're divorced and I think I was six whenever my parents divorced but definitely at an age that I should have remembered things that I don't remember. Right. And I have been to like therapy and talk to therapists and stuff and they say it's repressed memory it's things that I didn't want to remember that I literally shut my brain off. Well and also there's like you remember like you know what happened but you don't realize until you're an adult what it actually was. Right exactly. Like you remember it but you don't really like it doesn't click like until. But it's like almost like whenever

you are remembering these things it seems so fresh that like you're living it you know what I mean does that make sense. Yeah it does I mean I feel terribly that Jan has to live with this every day of her life like this is I mean she will say and she says openly in other interviews you know this is the man that she never wants to think about again but the man that she thinks about every single day of her life you know and. So many victims can relate. Yeah exactly and I commend her for taking this horrific story and turning it into something positive for herself you know because that is all she wants to do is save you know other people and think about this from happening. Being molested. Having

a documentary that is literally viral and that being your whole life knowing that the person that abused you people are talking about every day. That's crazy. It takes a lot of courage. I mean yeah if she wasn't living enough before I mean now she's living it even more. Almost and has to deal with people's opinions and comments and all the things. Yeah I tell her don't read Twitter. Yeah she got it. You know I read it. Don't read it. I'm like yeah. Reddit's pretty you know. We can relate. We can relate in different ways you know not the same way as her. If you're a regular coffee combos listener you definitely have heard me talk about my problems with my skin blemishes and breakouts and that's

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They have 100% risk free money back guarantee. Get healthier, more radiant skin by going to bioclarity.com and right now for our listeners you will save 40% off on skin care routines plus an additional 15% off everything on their website. That's an incredible deal but you need to enter our code coffee at checkout. So go to bioclarity.com and get 40% off skin care routines plus an additional 15% off everything on their website when you use our code coffee at checkout. One thing that I really did have a question about though was the amount of time that she was missing that the parents didn't call the police and I do know that a lot of things that I've read was like the times were different and stuff and so parents didn't

have like cell phones and you know like whatever back then but I still feel like as a parent even then I would like try to run to get help but you know if my kid was missing for 3 days. But I think part of it was they knew who she was with and then there was like the marriage thing with Mexico. Was that right? So he was going to bring her back but wanted to marry her. But yeah they waited a long time. Yeah I mean I imagine if it was me and if I had a child and they were gone for an hour extra too long. I was thinking 3 minutes and I would start freaking out. But maybe again that goes back to their religion and not wanting to have their business plastered all over the community. I mean he said he was taking her

horseback riding right. And this is somebody that again you don't see the level of grooming because we didn't have time to share all of that. So this is somebody that was like a best friend of the family, a second father figure, wanted to take Jan horseback riding and the parents said you know okay. Well I think they were like apprehensive about it and she like convinced them. And that's what I was about to say. I felt like I got the vibe from the mother that she was apprehensive about it but it was almost like she was kind of I don't want to say forced but like in a manipulated way forced to allow it. I mean she, I think if they really went back and thought about everything which they have you

know they would see more of the red flags that they missed. So just like you brought up before when Jan was on the trampoline and she's saying you know something felt a little off. Like thinking back on that now she goes okay that's really off. Right. And even during that time she probably was at the level you know the mental state that we grow to as a child where we start to understand that something feels funny. You know we don't know why but it feels funny. And I think that maybe that same thing was happening with Mary Ann her mother. It was like you know maybe internally she was questioning like why does he want to take her horseback riding alone. But also this is one of our best friends and he's

like a father figure and does a lot for the family so I shouldn't be weirded out but there's something in me that tells me it's a little off. Right. So if I would imagine that something that she felt. She struggled with. Yeah. But she still let her go and you know they allowed her to go on this trip. And I think in the beginning they didn't want to believe that anything could be wrong. Like oh they must have you know run out of gas in the car. They must have stopped to get something to eat. You know. They could not imagine that he had kidnapped her. Right. I mean I think about you know not in the same relatable situation but it's like okay my in-laws tell me that they're bringing Jackson home and they might

stop it. Publics target you know whatever. And they tell me they're going to be there in an hour but it's really like an hour and 45 minutes. I don't really think about it. Right. Do you know what I'm saying. Because you know that they're safe. You know who they're with. Right. Right. So I think that that heavily played into it as well. Even still I'm like if even if my son went with any of my sons went with their family and a couple hours turned to several days. Now I'm questioning what the hell are you doing. Right. But let's also like let's be totally honest here. Like I don't think this would not happen. I mean it can happen today but I would never. I think parents thought so differently. They do. Yeah

it's so hard to even like put into words and I don't know. I would never let a grown man take my child anywhere. Right. But back then they might have. Yeah. Okay. It was definitely a different time but and I don't know if it's just because of the way I was raised. You know everyone's raised differently but there was nobody that I grew up with in my life that would take me alone somewhere without my family. Right. You know. Same. Yeah. So another question that I had was B's brother. Yes. I felt like B's brother like almost made excuses for him. Yeah. And it was very again like nonchalant. He's very nonchalant. Like that's what B did. So we just looked the other way. He acknowledged the fact that he was

always a sexual pervert. And didn't care. Almost. Did these parents know this and like how long did they know this. You know that we have no clue. No clue. Yeah. But yeah his brother is you know it's when we were doing all these screenings originally we got so many laughs when you know Joe comes on the screen and says you know he's always been a sexual pervert and I think it's just you know that uncomfortable laughter like I can't believe he's saying this so casually about his brother. Like that's what he liked. Yeah. He liked little girls like he just like it was so casual that it I don't want to say that it was humorous because in this situation it's not nothing's humorous. It's not but

a lot of humor comes from yeah being uncomfortable. So I understand why people laugh at that because it just makes you you know so incredibly uncomfortable. Right. Yeah. I was completely uncomfortable when he said that because I was just like OK. Wow. So like his brother knew this. Did his parents know this. Was this something that could have been prevented by them knowing but they didn't do anything about it because they could have been in denial. I think those are questions that a lot of people have that obviously you know you don't know the answer to either but and I wonder as well as well you know and we will never get those answers probably but you know I I hate to just always blame the time I feel

like a lot of people say well it was the 70s was a very different time and I do agree that a ton has changed since the 70s and yes I do also think that their religion played into it you know they carried around a lot of shame for their actions which was a reason why maybe they didn't report you know her kidnapping right away is that you know guilt kind of took over them and they were ashamed that maybe they had let something like this happen you know I definitely can see that and I can also see even a parent today you're constantly chasing wanting to be like the best parent yeah and you're constantly wanting to feel like you're doing right by your child and I can see where that would be such a shameful

moment facing the reality that this has happened to your kid right and I think whether it was then or now all parents can relate because even parents that are living today that something has happened to their child whether it be you know molester whatever it may be they still I feel like a lot of parents don't want to face that reality you know that that could have happened to their kid and like how did I let this happen and how do you forgive yourself right right because you whether you felt like truly in your heart you were doing the right thing you feel such a sense of guilt that wow like how did I how did that happen literally in front of my eyes and I did not even do anything yeah and I think a lot of it is not

wanting to see the truth right yeah yeah it's it's really hard it's denial you know it's denial and it's it's really hard when somebody you've grown so close to and you love like family and you don't want to see that they're a terrible person and they're showing it right to you and it's it's heartbreaking yeah yeah I mean nobody wants to know like look at their life and be like oh wow like you really just right yeah and you don't want to find out that somebody that you've let into your family and around your kids and spending private time with them is is somebody completely opposite of who you thought they were yep exactly but I mean we can all relate in different ways that you've allowed people in your life thinking

that they're like one way oh for sure and they're not you know you think I mean relationships friends I mean everyone everyone so it's not I mean just in this situation I think it's just really easy that it was such a popular doc documentary and so many people are talking about it that it's easy to judge from an outside because everybody's talking about it so it's like you want to give your two cents too you know but you don't really know the family you don't know the victim you don't know I mean just even sitting here alone I didn't know it took five years to create this whole thing yeah right if there's one thing I've learned it's that there are a lot of ways to be active and get strong but sometimes it's

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extended 30 day free trial membership to open fit where you can lose up to 15 pounds in just 30 days when you text coffee to 30 30 30 you'll get full access to open fit all the workouts and nutrition information for free again just text coffee to 30 30 30 and I wanted to ask you have other people reached out to you guys about their story and wanting to do a docu series or documentary people have definitely been writing us about their own stories you know I handle all the social media and most of the publicity so I feel like I get most of those emails and it's it's it's pretty unbelievable how many people have lived through sexual abuse it's absolutely unbelievable I knew it before I took this

project on right but what I know now is my blowing and I think us doing the film festival circuit and getting into a bunch of festivals and getting to screen all across the country with very different audiences we saw that we kept seeing the same kind of reactions and they were vastly different but they all were happening you know uncomfortable laughter crying we had people walk out and at the end of almost every screen screening we had somebody come up to us and admit sexual abuse oh wow I had one woman at one screening admit a story to me and she was maybe in her seventies and she had never said it to anyone in her entire life and so sad watching the film she felt like she just needed to say it and I was right

there and I was the person she chose to say it to and that's that's pretty incredible yeah yeah yeah the sad thing is about victims is that they carry so much guilt that they shouldn't carry oh yeah and I think that's such a powerful thing with people coming out and telling their stories that it's letting other people know that haven't shared their stories that you don't have to feel guilty about something that was done to you you know right you didn't ask for this right and don't we all know like victims that you know they blame themselves like I should have seen this you know but I look at Jan and I'm like you were 12 right yeah 12 you know and I don't think she blames herself at all but I you

know I always think you should not because you know at that age you are it is so I don't even want to say this on air but like you know it's like at 12 years old you are just susceptible to being manipulated right oh you are and you know it's like why I said I don't want to say this on air is I don't want anyone creepy to hear this and go oh great I can go do it myself because there are a ton of people like that out there but you know I mean you are you're you're dealing with a child who who isn't even like you know has mentally figured out who they are matured I mean you know one thing that was like so crazy to me that I couldn't really wrap my head around was the fact of the mom having

the affair right and that was going on for what like eight months yeah and FBI had told her like to stay away from him you know so can you tell us like any more than what we saw or was it just also goes back to the fact of the manipulation and maybe she was not as aware of what was going on and that's why she was like so into him I mean I can't understand yeah I mean it's I don't have really much more information than what the documentary gave but you know she was having you know a relationship with him as well and it did go on for a long period of time and that is really shocking I I believe truly that he groomed and manipulated her as well he prayed on them because he saw a marriage where they

had been together a really long time they weren't you know being intimate really he took advantage of that situation and he took advantage of it he saw an opening he was charismatic he was you know giving Jan's mother Marianne like all the things that maybe she felt like she was lacking in her marriage and he prayed on that by you know complimenting her and spending time with her and doing things that maybe she wasn't getting out of her own husband and you know and then he ended up blackmailing them yeah I think when you're in a marriage for so long I think they had said like 12 or 13 years the newness we talk about this all the time on the podcast that newness wears off I mean I've been married for 10 years

you know and so I know what it feels like for the newness to wear off and to feel like oh wow like I just wish that it was kind of like whenever we were dating and I felt like the most beautiful thing ever because he told me all the time right oh and it's like when you get in the just groove of life and you're just you know kind of going through the motions yeah doing your thing every day and it's like you're raising the kid and he's working it's like you almost forget to do those things and so I could see where it would have been easy for him to kind of wedge his way into that marriage because it's like wow she's not being told any of these things and he's doing all of the things that she's missing right

you know I just want to know what his wife was like how do you balance it was really a triple life right because he had like his home life with his wife and his kids and then with Jan and then with both of the parents so when were you ever with your own wife and children that's what I wanted to know it was like whatever with his own wife and children well they the families hung out a lot together so you know they his family would come over and they would hang out with you know Jan and Marianne and Bob and the whole family so like Jan says in the documentary there was really a friend for everyone you know their family got it yeah the families were around the same size and you know the fathers and

the mothers would hang out and the kids would hang out you know so the wife helped be black male the husband and wife so she knew to some degree what was going on well she it's not that she helped but she came over you know you see in the scene in the documentary and she asks them to please you know sign these affidavits saying right you know he did not kidnap her and if they did not then she would reveal all of their dirty secrets so she knew right it at that point it seems like I don't think it I don't know if she necessarily knew the extent with Jan I think it was more of the parents and this was mainly about the father at this time and and think about it during that time during that time and also the fact

that they were so involved you know in the Mormon church and they were absolutely afraid of that coming out oh absolutely you know but on both ends so Gail who's you know was B's wife you know she did not want to be humiliated that her husband was doing these things either and I think that they knew and I heavily believe that B groomed his own wife yeah you know and then groomed you know the Brobergs as well but the Brobergs did not want anyone to find out about any of it any of it so I think it was very almost an easy decision to agree to sign a paper for everything they were like we don't want this to get out on any end right you know so let's take a minute to talk about wellness this word gets thrown around a lot so what does it really mean if you

look at a lot of people who go on crash diets and buy into food fads they don't end up keeping the weight off right because it's not sustainable they're not taught how to maintain their progress once they reach their goal noom is such a cool option if you want to achieve your health goals but need some guidance on how to get there whether you want to improve your eating habits sleep better or feel stronger noom can help you get there noom is one of the biggest food databases available and will track your meal habits help you understand portion sizes and keep you motivated and on task along your healthy lifestyle journey what I liked about the new process was that it was very thorough when asking me questions about my personal goals you know everyone is so different

so it's important for me to choose the right plan for me and it takes into consideration my lifestyle I also like that it gave little example messages of encouragement when signing up I thought that was a nice inspirational touch I love that noom is not about shaming so it's all about giving you tools to feel better rather than just about losing weight so since you can access it on your phone you'll always have access to support whenever you need it noom is designed for results achieve your goals by signing up for your trial today at noomnoom.com slash coffee what do you have to lose visit noom.com slash coffee to start your trial today again that's noom.com slash coffee start losing weight for good I just I watch it and I'm like I guarantee you parents today

it's probably more relatable to parents today than what we really think yeah you know I do think so too I just think about like my because we haven't been through it right we don't know exactly but parents who are going through it who have watched this probably are like oh wow oh wow I get it like my mom my parents grew up in the 70s I think yeah I mean so they're so do my parents to think about like but honestly the documentary had me thinking like not that anything like this has gone on in my family but like trying to like understand how they lived back then and like things that my mom told me about when she grew up like how much of this stuff went on and nobody talked about and still doesn't talk about well I'm sure you know

I mean yeah the awareness today of it it makes me wonder if it will happen less often now because so many people are coming forward with it and becoming more comfortable with coming forward there's more help available I feel like today than there ever was before well because people were uncomfortable talking about it and it was just kind of like let's sweep it under the rug and if yeah talk about it and the humiliation factor I think is huge like today it's not necessarily obviously there's still going to be a sense of humiliation but it can be more private you can get help in private right there's a lot more resources now than there used to be and obviously with social media it's a it's a lot easier to share stories and learn from different people's stories

as well which at that time when this story happened there was not right right I mean I just think about like where my parents grew up and stuff that's yeah that's what I'm saying yeah both my parents too small town um everyone knew everyone everybody knew cell phones exactly just kind of like walking oh I'm going down to my friend's house down the street okay be back by dinner that's it that's it exactly like I'm riding my bike like down the dirt road yeah there might not have even been street lights you know yeah I just think about all of those things and I'm like wow that was such a different time and then I think today you still hear stories about stuff happening you know like a current day but I wonder if people are smarter and try to go about things in different

ways to do things to children or if they're more reserved and have a sense of fear of doing it with the way that the media is and the way that people are more comfortable coming out that they will be told on right you know I would hope yeah yeah I think it's it's probably both I mean I think it's unfortunately probably happening just as much now as it was then um the reason why people are caught more now or at least I hope that they are is as much as you know social media can be detrimental to society in some ways in this way I think people are caught faster you know people can be tracked from their cell phones so you know it's it's less likely that somebody maybe could be taken for this long of a period of time and not found right yeah I hope so I

know it still happens but I just I think we have more resources to prevent it now right right yeah yeah I just I have so many questions about Jan like does she really feel like I wish I like knew how she felt today you know like she's gone through all of this has it helped her like any sense of relief yeah like for getting it out there you know like Kale was talking about writing it in a book you know and then feeling like a sense of closure does that help you come you know you come out with what's happened to you and it's traumatic experience does it help or does it hurt you more yeah I talk to Jan every day so um I I say this all the time but I find her so incredibly brave yeah um I think she is such a strong woman and she's someone to look up to

she is a case where your life can be just turned upside down and you can still come out on top you know she has become a successful actor and now she's an advocate and yeah I think there are some days where I'm sure she is just emotionally so distraught from all of this but there are other days where she says look at what we're doing look at the movement we're creating right you know she wanted she knew that when this documentary came out that people would go after her parents she already knew it and I can't even tell you there have been like tweets that have come out against her saying that she wanted this to happen and that is so disgusting to me it is that anyone could say that at all but we have seen the conversation flip as the months have gone on

since its release on Netflix in January um people are now starting to focus more on the grooming and the manipulation and saying well hold on okay I know that we beat the parents down and everything but like let's move past that and say like what's really happening right like let's learn from this like what is really going on and like what do we do to prevent this in the future so I think that that gives her a lot of satisfaction and helps her wake up every day and go through life right and happily as a mother I know that you know you said that you don't have children but we both do and as a mother I look at it as a situation of wow she was so brave to come out because we're talking about it privately we're talking about it publicly and feel a sense of yes this

didn't happen to us but it is happening to people and we should feel brave to come out and be able to talk about it and to be able to get help because you didn't ask for this you know and it's not your fault and I don't know I just I'm so thankful to be able to watch these types of things and to be able to see not that I want to see somebody like be harmed you know like that's not what it's about but it's just to be able to see like wow this happened to somebody in their life and she's so brave to come out and talk about it and help other people because I could also see a sense of wanting to be selfish and taking it a completely opposite direction and being you know bitter and angry and not wanting to tell your story absolutely you know I could see it that way too

yeah I did read rumors that there were that you guys were turning this into a movie is there any truth to that or you can't really say um there is there are offers on the table that's what I can say so you might see more of this in the future awesome I mean I will be the first person I want to go to the viewing party I want to go to I want to be invited are we invited to the yeah it happens um other than this are you working on any other documentaries um I have also some offers on the table for myself that I'm going through and um I can say that some are true crime and uh some are completely different um and I'm also right now producing a dramedy feature film that is oh my gosh really completely opposite of this and you know it's a

nice break from something that's just so hard on your heart all the time you know to be working on something a little bit different so yeah I was gonna say like that would be really hard to bounce from like a story like this to another story like this it's like there's gotta be a break somewhere like for peace of mind then five years I'm like I want something happy right yeah for a little bit oh my gosh that is I mean I I literally the amount of questions I can't even tell you that we still have and yeah I'm still if we ask you all the questions that we received it would be like a 10 hour podcast oh yeah yeah sure would be yeah and I guess didn't email me yeah yeah questions okay I think that um the whole wrap up of this is that parents who are watching it

don't really get it but now after talking to you I see a whole different perspective perspective of it that I wouldn't have seen just watching the docu series oh good no yeah I mean just the time alone like you're right they probably he probably sat there and groomed the parents for a long time before it went a bc just like that and I think because the time of the docu series and like you feel like it's so short you know that you feel like you're missing a lot of pieces is and I think it would have changed the whole situation had his wife been a part of it yeah yeah yeah yeah we really because that's like the missing link you know like it really is yeah and so you can't really get yes it's a depiction of the story of what happened

but had you had her perspective I think that the whole thing would have been different yeah it would have been really nice to to have Gail be a part of it um but I see the part of me part of me feels like maybe you guys wouldn't have gotten it because maybe she hasn't been able to be honest with herself about the situation it's true because she's definitely an effective she is but she could be that bitter side that you were just talking about kind of going the other way with it she might be the opposite and then it would have just been like the blame game yeah I don't know but I do you know completely understand her not wanting to be a part of it I mean I could not imagine being the wife of someone like him and then half knowing you know

I have children because I think a part of it too is as much as she probably didn't want to participate for herself but also for her kids absolutely I agree with that she was protecting them yeah and I think you know it was probably already hard enough her knowing that this was going to come out you know without even participating because I mean I would want to hear from the kids too yeah and what did their kids think of all this you know yeah that that's that's too much of course right well it's just we you know they haven't wanted to be a part of it or talk understandably again but yeah I'm sure that it's really hard on them knowing that this was who their father was right and that's something that they have to live with forever and now see

people speaking about and I'm sure that that's incredibly hard yeah you know hopefully enough time has passed that they've healed and moved on with their life in some way because I wouldn't want you know this to affect them negatively moving forward they're not who their dad is you know yeah they are not their father you know and and none of these victims are their abuser right kidnapper and that's important for these people to know because so many victims just carry around so much shame and guilt and it's not their fault right and so many of them are not listened to or believed and you talked about that yeah yeah and that's something that jan I know fights for every day she has a son as well she does yes and um he's an adult and um she has a lot of nieces

and nephews you know from both of her sisters and she says to them all the time tell me and I will believe you right right and that's so important because so many people are not believed so I feel like today and I don't know if parents talked about it to their kids then because there wasn't a great awareness for it but you know I've had the conversation with my son like hey you know nobody's supposed to go to the bathroom with you at school you're old enough to like pull down your own pants and you're old enough to wipe yourself and before he ever started school like he was wiping himself you know right there's no reason that there needs to be an adult in the bathroom with you while you're wiping and I know that sounds like very psycho and crazy no it's important to

start the conversations early yeah for sure but again that comes from awareness because of people that are brave like her I know my sister had the same conversation with with her son I mean I think that there's a book that she actually has been having him read that you know is basically about if something makes you uncomfortable you should listen to yourself you know so he plays in the neighborhood all the time you know alone outside and she said you know if anybody comes up and says like you want me to give you a ride home or you want this piece of candy or whatever she's like if anything makes you feel weird don't do it like unless it's me or your father like do not go with anyone don't take anything from anyone because you have to be so careful now and I mean is it crazy

that it seems like I sometimes will feel inclined to like ask Jackson that's my son's name I'll feel inclined to be like hey you know what's going on at school just meet anyone new yeah meet anybody new any new teachers you know when you go to the bathroom is it you know like just joy bathroom like is it just you or your friends in there because at the school they have one bathroom and a lot of the bathrooms are shared between two classrooms so it's like a jack and jill kind of and then on the doors on both sides there's a window so if the teachers need to like see in there like what's going on yeah they can see in there but the rule is is that teachers cannot be in the bathroom and if the teacher went in they have to have a second teacher to go in with them right yeah so again I

think that also comes from awareness and people just realizing like this is the reality and as much as people don't want to realize it like you have to face facts yeah and that is just the case but it it makes me feel like wow like what does the world come to but no I feel good that the world has come to it yeah it's awareness right I agree well Emily thank you so much for coming for having me like so eye-opening and I feel like we're gonna get probably even more questions now that we've done this right and maybe we can email them over to you so that we can you know do a write-up for our listeners but again tell Jan thank you for being so brave absolutely I will she will very much appreciate it it's her her story is crazy and I'm so glad

that she's been able to turn it into awareness yes me too thank you for having me all right guys I think that's all we have time for today if you have not subscribed to us on iTunes you can do that by searching the purple podcast app on your iPhone typing in coffee combos click subscribe click the fifth star and you can also leave us a written review we thank you guys so much for listening and if you have any questions make sure you send them to our DM and we will try to get those answered we hope you guys have a great week and we'll talk to you soon see you this podcast is brought to you by wave podcast network check out all of our shows including the brain candy podcast I don't get it coffee combos and let's talk about it