Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - TikTok Detectives & True Crime Chaos

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

CC 480: Before the episode begins, Kail shares a brief disclaimer explaining that all episodes after this episode through were pre-recorded during their Atlanta trip. She asks listeners to give everyone involved in the most recent situation some grace, shares her love and support for Lindsie during a difficult time, and explains that she does not yet have enough information to fully speak on the situation publicly.Kail is then joined by longtime makeup artist Zach Bonner for an unfiltered episode covering the documentaries everyone is talking about: The Nightmare Upstairs and The Crash. They break down their reactions, unpopular opinions, social media theories, family court, parental alienation, and the complicated emotions behind both cases.Plus, Kayla joins in for the TikTok commentary, and the episode ends with a Foul Play that somehow turns a disastrous second date into a nine-year love story.Get your Fatherless Behavior Tour Tickets hereFor full videos head to patreon.com/kaillowry To send in your Foul Plays email us at [e-mail] you for checking out our sponsors!this episode is brought to you by booking.com. Head over to Booking.com and start your listing today.Progressive: To get your auto insurance quote head to progressive.comShopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial today at SHOPIFY.COM/coffeeconvosDirect TV: Go to directv.com/genrepacks and sign up today.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I hate gift giving and receiving. Receiving gifts is so weird. What do you say thank you? This is coffee convoes with Kail Lowry and Lindsay Crisley. I really want you to be in your feels, Kail. That does not interest me whatsoever. I feel very attacked by you. A spirited discussion about motherhood, friendship, family, and life in the public eye.

I'm just not with a fakery anymore. There's a fakery bakery around here. Here's Kail and Lindsay. All right, you guys, welcome back to a new episode of Coffee Coffa's podcast. I want to record a disclaimer for anyone listening to this episode. All of our episodes with Lindsay up until this point have been pre-recorded while I was in Atlanta. And so I'm coming to you guys directly to say, I don't have enough details to speak on the full situation. I don't know where the case stands today.

I 100% hope that Lindsay is okay and she's taking the time to heal. and kind of sort of reevaluate whatever it is she's going to do next. I don't want to speak on something out of turn without knowing all the details. I was not there. I was not pretty to information. I have not read articles. I don't want to jump the gun and say too much or too little. And I do want to continue today's episode as a regular episode with my friend Zach.

He has been a makeup artist on and off for me for the past eight or nine years now. And so I would love to continue this episode with him and give Lindsay the space that she needs during this time. I think that right now I would love to have the support of you guys and just obviously wishing the best for Lindsay regardless of the situation. Nobody, I understand, nobody is perfect. And again, I don't want to speak out of turn. I have so much love for Lindsay. I never want to speak against her on here or anywhere. Doing my best to get through the situation, it's been a wild six months. Um, nothing could have prepared me on Honestly, I'm begging to redo 2024 and 2025 at this point.

Like, I'm begging to redo them because this has been such a roller coaster. With that all being said, I hope you guys can just give me a little bit of grace. I do want to give you guys a still, you know, I still want to give you guys an episode. So Zach and I are going to discuss the nightmare upstairs. And I do have a little bit of a hot take on that. So before we get to that, I will introduce my friend Zach. Hello, Zach. How are you?

I'm good. I was just recording a little intro, and then I said that you were going to come on the episode, and we were going to talk about the nightmare upstairs. But before we do that, obviously, you've been my makeup artist. I say obviously. It's obvious to us. Yeah.

But to the everyone who doesn't know, Zach has been my makeup artist on and off for like eight or nine years. Yeah, I think so. Is that? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a long time. I always like Lux's age, because I feel like that's when I met Taylor, that's when I met

Lindsay, that's when I met you. And so I feel like Lux is like my like walking anniversary child because he's like the kid that's same timing. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think it was right before you got pregnant with Creed. Oh, okay. So a little less than eight years then.

So maybe like maybe like seven. Yeah. It was a good amount of time right before you got pregnant. Okay. Well, did you watch the nightmare upstairs? I did last night. Okay. We need to talk about it.

I have a hot cake and unpopular opinion. I think I do too. So do you? Okay. So that actually makes me feel better. Okay. So for anyone who's listening to this, this is a spoiler. We're going to talk about it.

So if you have not seen it and you don't want to listen to this episode, turn it off until you go watch it. Giving you guys a second to do that. If you've already watched it, or I don't know, my hot take is this. And I did, for anyone who watched it, I did have Elliot.

I texted Elliot and I was like, hey, can you watch this and give me your thoughts? Because he's 16. So I'm like, I need to know kind of like where he's at. And it's so weird. And someone brought it up in book club last night. They were like, isn't it so weird that your kid is old enough to like share recommendations for like

shows and movies? it's such a weird, like it feels so surreal. But okay, what is your hot take on it? Like, tell me what your thoughts are. So I think that, like, I was seeing a lot of people also agreeing with this, that it was really hard to follow of, like, with whose side you're on. And like, at the very beginning, obviously, like, when, when they said all of the allegations against the father, obviously I was like, well, fuck him.

That's horrible. And then the way that it was narrated by like the grandma and the mom, it kept swaying me back and forth. So I got a little bit confused of like whose side I was on, if that makes sense. Okay. Wait, what were you? Yeah, no. What do you think? I think the mom is bad shit.

Thank you. Okay. So the way that she was acting on TikTok was a little uncalled for. Zach, her TikToks were so. fucking out of pocket. Yeah. It pissed me off because here's the thing. This just, it felt too close to home.

And so I feel like I got it from a different let through a different lens because of that. I think the dad put on desatin for a diaper rash because how many pedophiles do we see in the media every single day that don't ever, they're not, they're not disagreeing with their charges. They pretty much get on there except their fate. and they don't say anything and then they go to prison, right? Like, they're not putting out money for lawyers,

hundreds of thousands of dollars, fighting for their kids, fighting in court, right? Like they're, they basically admit it without admitting it. They don't say anything and they shut the fuck up and they go to prison. So for me, I'm like, this is not typical behavior. The other thing that was interesting to me too is that the daughter, when that happened was so young that it's possible that she could have been like coerced by the mom, like the mom embellished and exaggerated it.

it. I don't think the kids should be held at fault because they're doing what they think is right. And they think what their mom has told them or embellished or elaborated on, they, they think that happened to them. And they were probably too young. But why did it take years between? Also, I don't know about, I don't know enough about pedophilia and like that kind of thing to know if someone who's into pedophilia, do they typically go boys and girls? Or is it Or is it more so their, like, gear, like a certain pedophile might be geared towards little girls and a certain pedophile might be geared towards little boys? Like, how often do we hear pedophiles that go after both? I mean, first of all, I think it's maybe a good thing that we don't understand that mentality.

Oh, yeah, sure. But I'm just saying, like, the discrepancies. And I know that a lot of people on social media were saying, well, what about the second wife? And here's my take on the second wife. if I was in that position, it would scare me half to death to be married and take the risk of being married and staying married to this person who was accused of these allegations. I think the allegations alone are enough to divorce somebody. And I understand that she was scared and maybe thought, because I'm thinking to myself, if that happened to me and I'm being accused of that and I'm talking to my partner, I would say, you know, make sure that you, like, let them know that I've only ever used decetent. And make sure you know, like, you say, you've always been in there. Like, you're so scared.

You're operating out of fear that I'm like, I just don't, like, there's something not right about the mom. And then the other thing, too, Lincoln's 12, so kind of around the age that tie was, if he and Lux or Lux and Elliot, or sorry, if Lincoln and Elliott or Lincoln and Luck sort of barricade themselves in a room, if that's my house, I will knock my doors down because there's no reason why you need to be, like, I'm not going to let someone drag you out of the house. Like you don't need to you don't need to barricade yourself in the room. I thought that's the part that I started realizing like that something is weird that she's like enabling that like barricading yourself in your room and sliding food under the door. And like then she started when she started engaging in the TikTok when they were going live and she was making TikToks about it from like the other perspective. It seemed like they were like running with it. And then, um, J.P. Lily, I think his name was. J.P. Lilly had such a profound impact on Ty and you could see in the footage that they played in the

documentary how impacted Ty was. I think at that impressionable age, he was so thankful and excited to have somebody like J.P. be proud of him because that's what he said. I'm proud of him. I'm proud of you. And that's J.P's job is to believe the children. And again, I'm not saying I don't believe the children. I think I believe what they believe, right? Like, but with that being said, like Ty being at such an impressionable age, every single therapist after JP was attached to JP in some way. And I think for that too, that actually caused more damage than good. But there is a reason.

And I'm not saying that the prison, I'm not saying that the judicial, judicial system doesn't fail kids because it does. I feel like it failed me, right? Like, I think that happens. But there is a reason in this case in particular that the officials and everybody did not side with the mom. And they did see parental alienation because nothing was substantiated. And then they were like, oh, the child protective services claims substantiated those claims.

But if I remember correctly, the physical side of it all was not substantiated. It was just that they basically saying like they believe the kids because you're supposed to believe the kids as you should. But there was nothing. And like the entire thing just broke my fucking heart. because if you look at the footage of the kids when they were toddlers and small children, they were so lively and bubbly and they had a light in their eyes. And I felt like, wow, like if that was what was happening to them at that time, would they look like that versus how they look now?

Like, I feel like now they're the, I guess maybe the isolation of it all really has impacted their health. it looks like and maybe their mental health and things like that. And it just makes me really nervous. All right. We all know starting something new isn't just hard. It's actually terrifying. So much work goes into this thing that you're not even entirely sure will work out. And it can be so hard to take that leap of faith.

Trust me, I know that. When we started this podcast and any of my businesses, I wasn't sure what I was doing. I never really do. But what if someone doesn't buy my products? What if nobody goes on my website? What if nobody checks my newsletter? but now I know that I was right in believing myself and launching my podcasts and this business and all of the things despite all the fears and hesitations. It's so nice to know that Shopify is

on my side. Okay. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the United States from household names like, I don't know, Jim Shark and skims to brands just getting started like coffee combos or barely famous. And you can get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates because Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. And you guys can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. You don't even need a budget for that because you can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are, whether they're scrolling or strolling. But best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in

everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. And if people haven't heard about you, Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. So don't forget about that. And if you get stuff, don't worry because Shopify's always around to share advice with you. They have award-winning 24-7 customer support, which is a game changer, especially for people like me who are not tech savvy. And I just want to say that it's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up today for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash coffee. Go to Shopify.com slash coffee.

Shopify.com slash coffee. And then she ended up dropping the charges, didn't she? If that were me, I think, because obviously you don't know until you're in that position, if I know without a shadow of a doubt with 100% certainty that that happened to my kids, I would never drop the charges. You could not pay me to drop the charges. So that was another.

And the fact that, tie also wanted to be emancipated from his mom as well so that also leads me to believe like maybe at some point in the back of his head maybe he is questioning what his mom has told him i don't know the whole thing had me feel weird watching it you're not really protecting your kids when you're willing to get on here and talk about talk about their potential sexual trauma if that was a thing and they're still my or at least she is and you're on here not only are you talking about it on social media you're on you're on also getting on a documentary and like reliving it like I don't know like it just there's just something not right about the mom to me everything that I'm saying is alleged these are just my opinions I believe the children I'm just commenting on the specific documentary but I believe the children believe that happened to them regardless of whether it actually happened or not or the mom was trying to create a parental alienation situation the trauma is just horrendous like regard like the allegations alone whether it happened or not is traumatic and to stay I just

I just cannot imagine a world where my kids are living barricaded in a room for 54 days. Like, do you think that they actually came out of that room at any point because they had to have gotten a microwave. They, I think there was like somebody was saying, how did you get a sandwich under the door? Like, how were cut through the, did they cut a hole through the door to get the mom to give them food? Like, what was going on? Ty said that he cut a hole into the bathroom so he could.

have access to the bathroom. And then his mom said that she was smashing sandwiches and sliding them under the door. At no point did the mom think, you know what, this specific therapist is not working. This is not working. Let's get intensive therapy or inpatient treatment. Like there had to have been other options and other routes compared with what they were given, right? Like I honestly think the mom failed the father. I mean, sorry, I think the mom failed the children just as much as,

everybody thinks the judicial system failed the children because every single therapist was involved with JP. Okay, you never thought to get someone completely removed or to put these kids in an inpatient. It is so hard for me to wrap my mind around. Like, I can't. Have you, are you familiar with the reunification therapy? Like, were you, have you heard of that before this? No. This was the first I've heard of.

re- is that it reunification therapy yeah yeah yeah so that was the first I've ever heard of it in this documentary and I don't know if this was just a really bad example of what that therapy is like but from what I saw in this documentary I don't think I like it unless they just did a really bad job of it okay so Google says reunification therapy is a specialized short term short term form of therapy aimed at repairing and rebuilding severely disrupted parent-child relationships. It is most commonly used following high-conflict divorces, periods of estrangement, or child welfare interventions to help children safely reconnect with alienated or non-custodial parents. So I think it was just a bad example of what it is. I think, like, for example,

if my mom at any point wanted to introduce me to my dad prior to when I met, him, maybe the court would want a reunification situation before I went to stay with him for overnights or full weekends or full weeks in the summer. It would be like a slowly reintroducing him into my life. And I feel like in some situations that could be really helpful, right? Like if you have just for all intents of purposes, maybe a mom who maybe was bitter and did like this alienation thing. And then she finally comes to terms with it. And she's like, hey, like I did keep you from your dad, like, let's slowly work towards a rebuilding situation. I feel like that could be really helpful.

But when we're talking about these allegations that the dad did again, I don't know how you reunify somebody with their abuser. Like, that's not. And so, and I think the mom knew that. Like, but it just, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that people aren't looking at the situation as the mom, like, manipulating the kids. Yeah, I don't think I love this documentary.

I was annoyed at how it was narrated, and I don't think it wasn't my favorite documentary I've watched. What do you think about the grandmother, like speaking for the dad? I mean, I don't think that that's a reliable narrator for the situation. because she's obviously biased. Agreed. Like it definitely wasn't helping the case, in my opinion. I don't, I think that because she loves her son, she obviously was going to speak highly of him regardless.

But I, this man would not have gotten on the end of that documentary and said what he said. If he was guilty of this, I really think he would coward and, and go into a hole and have nothing to do with this. But there's just, the whole. situation is off. The whole fucking thing pissed me off. I think the documentary, the main purpose of this documentary was to create an emotional reaction from listeners, no matter which side you were on. So whether you believe the dad or the kids or the mom, whatever, I think it was the purpose of it was to create an emotional reaction. So I think that's why, like, when we're saying we're upset, we don't really love the way the documentary was done. I think that was the intent. Yeah, so I

guess it was pretty open. Um, yeah, 100%. And then would, what would your reaction be if you were in this mom's shoes? First with the allegations, the custody issues, and then locking themselves in the room upstairs. Like, I'm just trying to think if my kids came to me and said, Daddy, put this cream on me. Or like, I guess at first, like, you want to like look into it because like you should hear your kids out to be like, okay, let me just let. like ask your dad what why you're saying like look into it but I don't think that you would do what what the mom did it just feels like I don't know I don't know having spent a lot of time

in family court yourself how much money do you think these parents have spent okay so one of the questions on here having spent a lot of time in family court yourself how much money do think these parents have spent last year 2025 out of the 100 sorry in 2025 out of the one million dollars that I've spent in child custody over the past 10 years 350,000 of it went into 2025 for me. With that being said, if that one year costed me $350,000, I would imagine for them this was ongoing for several years before the dad decided to sign off his rights and he had to have signed off his rights before Ty turned 18. My guess is that, I mean, they probably spent over a million, like around a million dollars just on this case alone. And the grandma said that she was paying for it because the dad apparently is broke.

Did you see that part? Why is the dad broke? Apparently when they were fighting for custody, the court asked the grandma, are you willing to continue to financially support? the dad if he does get custody. And she said something that he's like really struggling financially, especially with all the court, all the court fees. So apparently the grandparents have been financially supporting him.

Well, of course, because how, how does anyone with like an average salary in an American household, how does anyone afford, excuse me, how does anyone afford those types of bills?

I mean, I was almost on the corner of Dollar General to pay my last attorney bill. You know what I mean? I should is no joke. And these lawyers, like, I just got a consultation for an attorney for something completely unrelated, $750 an hour. The mom looks like she's thriving. The mom looks like she needs to lay off the Ozmpic.

Yeah. Like thriving financially, not mentally. Like her house in the, in the documentary, like it looks like she's doing well financially. even with all of the the court fees. Well, I don't know if you saw on TikTok, but Ty got on TikTok to answer some questions. And he said that he did not get paid for the documentary and he will never get paid for the documentary.

Wow. Hmm. So I know, typically, typically, I'm not saying this is always the case. It's not a one size fits all, But generally speaking, in the documentary industry, you don't typically get paid. Like, no, like that's very common. That's very typical. And that is always interesting to me because they say they don't want to jeopardize the integrity of the documentary.

Yeah. And for me, on this side of it, paying me for my time to discuss what happened to me on a documentary is not going to ever, like, I'm not going to say things because you're paying. Like, I'm not going to say more or less because you're paying me. You're asking, you're going to make millions of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars off of my story. Why wouldn't you pay me? That's not, that doesn't jeopardize the integrity.

Like, that's so weird to me. Yeah. I didn't know that. Like, you just exploited these two children, despite whether it happened or not, you just exploited it even further than what was already on social media and you're not going to pay. them on top of that. Like to me, that jeopardizes the integrity of the people making the documentary. This episode of Coffee Convo's podcast is brought to you by booking.com. I've got to say, if you're looking to grow your vacation rental business, this is a place to be. Booking.com is one of the

most downloaded travel apps in the world and for good reason. Since 2010, they've helped over 1.8 billion vacation rental guests find places to say, that's B with a billion. It couldn't be any easier. You can register your property in as little as 15 minutes and nearly half of hosts get their first booking within a week. But here's the thing. Most vacation rental hosts don't even realize they can list their properties on booking.com. And if you're not on the platform, your rental is basically invisible to millions of booking.com travelers worldwide. After all, they can't book what they can't see, right? But once you start listing on booking.com, your property gets seen by a massive global audience of unique travelers. That means more visibility,

more bookings and more opportunity to accelerate the growth of your rental business. So if your vacation rental isn't listed on booking.com, it could be invisible to millions of travelers searching the platform. Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach. Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen, get booked on booking.com. Okay, let's play these TikToks. I actually don't know how. Let me call Alessandra and see if she would be able to play them. In the meantime, we can talk about... The crash. Okay.

I hope that nobody cancels me over my opinion because, like I said, I think that the kids are the victims in all of this regardless. Like, I genuinely think that they believe this happened to them because of what their mom told them, but I don't know anything further than that. And again, this is my opinion. And if nobody agrees, that's fine. I just, the mom feels like a bitter and protecting the kid. Like, it's one thing to want to protect your kids.

And like you said, you're not even. and a parent and like you said, you're initially going to try to get to the bottom of it. But I'm sorry, my kid coming home and saying, Daddy put cream on my butt or on hot butt. I immediately, like my kids right now will say,

ow, it hurts. I need cream. They tell me that. Okay, but that's, because they said, ow,

it hurts. I need cream. I'm not automatically thinking, oh my God, did Elijah do something? No. If I did, I would go to the source and I would kind of use my discernment to see like

what his reaction is. And if I really felt suspicious, then I would move on, like, move forward. But like something just doesn't sit. It wouldn't be this controversial. It for sure it happened. Like that's kind of how I feel. But anyways, if anyone doesn't agree, that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

I think the kids are the victims regardless. But the biggest case all over social media besides this one right now is the crash with McKenzie Shirilla. And something came across my timeline yesterday that she wanted. Kim Kardashian to represent her to get her out of prison. Did you see that? Yes, I saw that. So I feel like with this documentary also, I feel like I've learned more about the case on TikTok than I did from watching the documentary. 1,000% because the documentary, it was infuriating, but I learned more on social media.

And I guess I read, no, I didn't, I don't guess I read. I saw on the videos on TikTok that Dom was. actively trying to break up with McKenzie. Mm-hmm. And then I saw rumors that she was, well, not even rumors. In all the videos they played on the documentary, she was smoking a blunt in the car with no seatbelt on. And now all of a sudden,

they're about to kill these two kids, and you all of a sudden have a seatbelt on? Mm-hmm. Crazy. Ma'am. Ma'am. Yeah. See, I mean,

I think at least with this documentary, everyone's on the same page that this bitch is crazy. Like, we all know that. But do you think that she was operating out of, like, heightened emotion, or do you think this was, like, she planned it? Um, I guess I didn't think about the seatbelt part, like, being planned. Um, but I guess you remember, like, the clip of her turning on the street and she's going, really slow. Like, right when she first turns on the street, she's going the speed limit. And then by the time she gets to the end of the street, she's going over 100.

So I guess if it was heightened emotion, like, she would be like, like going crazy around the turn. And she would have already been acting crazy. So if it was, I guess it would make sense if it was planned and she like turned normal on the street. And then she knew she had to pick up speed down. that whole street. So I guess that would make sense. The way that I was thinking about it was that it was like a fight and it was heightened emotion, but I didn't think about it like that until you just said that.

I just like don't understand like what the fuck she was thinking. Like the toxicity in her like interactions with Dom and like them threatening each other like because there's text messages that he was doing it and then there's phone call evidence or whatever or witness of her doing it and I don't deny that both of them probably have done it but ultimately there is it is weird to me and I guess allegedly again everything is this is our opinions this is all alleged um that she was practicing that route that she normally doesn't drive I went to go visit the building and that road and that route before the accident. I don't know if there's truth to that, but that was something that I saw on TikTok as well.

And then just the jail calls, the conversations between her and her mom and her mom telling her it was been sensationalized. And the daily mail has it in the UK. Like they're the positioning for both of these cases with the parents, um, liking the attention. It feels really weird to me. Yeah. What did you think about McKenzie's parents? Like how they're acting? Mackenzie's parents are a prime example of wanting to be their child's friend and letting their child call the shots.

And it also gave me suicide vibes. And the reason why I say that is because at the point that I, like, my mom kept me on my own for a long. Like I always fended for myself even as a small child, right? But once I hit my teenage years at 13 years old, I stopped getting Christmases. She stopped taking me to Christmas with my family. And by 13 and up, it was kind of like, okay, my job is done. She's self-sufficient. And so I was ripping and running the streets.

I was having sex, smoking weed, doing all the things. And that was simply because my mom was like, my job is done. Like my mom felt like her job was done. Do you know what I'm saying? So once I got pregnant, it was like, okay, I'm done. That is what McKenzie's parents reminded me of. oh, she's 16, she can move in with her boyfriend. It's fine.

The job is done. She's self-sufficient. They're fine. And I just felt like it's so fucking careless. And then I guess there was text messages on TikTok where she's messaging her dad asking if he can make her warm milk and then telling her to be telling her dad to be quiet when he comes in the house. Who the fuck are you talking to? Yeah.

Insane. Um, Kayla just said she's going to get on and play these TikToks. Um, the crash just infuriated me because I'm like, like, I just, I wish that I could understand the slow turn and then speeding up. Like it was almost like she was gearing up and then they, somebody grabbed the wheel at some point and somebody tried to put it in neutral at some point. But this is, I don't know. And it wasn't the driver because if she was trying to put it in neutral, she'd be

trying to press the brakes, but the brakes weren't pressed. I wonder if she thought, I wonder if Davion was like, unfortunately, just like collateral damage. Like he was just an extra, or because that's so fucking sad. I know. And he did not, I mean, you have them deserve it, but why didn't they have their seat belts on and she did?

Like something just feels so, and why did you, you did at that point, just stay the night or wait until a normal hour to leave? Like everything just felt weird. to me. Yeah, leaving at 5 in the morning. Weird. And her friend, McKenzie's best friend, what is her name? What was, um... Oh, Rosie. Yeah, I don't like her.

It would... Could you imagine getting on a fucking documentary and telling the world that you have, like, you would not go in for a police interview, but now you're going to talk to Netflix? Yeah. That says a lot about her character in the whole thing. And I'm not saying, like, go talk to the police because they asked you to.

But if you're not talking to police, maybe also don't talk to Netflix. Like, whatever, you don't want to talk to police. Like, this isn't your case, whatever. Okay, fine. But you're going to get on here and talk to Netflix about everything. And what was the other comment that's going viral on, um,

TikTok right now is the girl who said, I knew McKenzie wasn't suicidal because, When we went to McDonald's, she wouldn't even get a McChry. Yeah. It's so stupid. What? Like, oh, so she can't, she can't be suicidal because she wouldn't eat a McChicken.

Like, she wanted to be skinny and hot. That's why she didn't eat a McChicken. Give me a break. And then there was McKenzie's jail, like a jail mate. I don't know what, what do you call somebody that you're in prison with, that you're in jail with sell me was so many i don't think they were cellmates i think they were just like booked at the same time and in the prison at the same time and she's pissed like she got on did you see them did you see

the tic to yeah she got on tic talk she is pissed the fuck off and she's like and these are all her infractions did you see the list of fucking infractions that she's had that she's been there yeah that's also like what the fuck are you clean okay Kayla just got in so we should play the videos you want we just go ahead and play them yeah sure hon SureHun is crazy. That's what Luck says. I'll have to send you in the video. Sure hunt is wild.

All right. Upstairs about the two children who barricaded themselves in a bedroom in their mom's house to avoid being reunified with their father, which had been ordered by court. The courts wanted this to take place in a literal reunification camp, where they would be forced to do activities with their perpetrator and be not allowed to see their supportive mom. If you haven't watched it,

It's on Hulu. So it's two kids. They come to their mom and they disclose that they are being sexually abused by their dad, who is also a domestic violence perpetrator. He was mega, mega controlling. So he's like hurt material. They went to CPS, CPS, founded, they substantiated the case. And suddenly, a couple of years later, everything gets turned around and they say that Jessica is committing parental alienation. I just want to say, It's parental alienation just seems like the magic key that perpetrators can use to say, actually, none of this is about me. This is all about these other 400 crazy people. The parental alienator has the power of a thousand fiery sons, apparently. Like what? The kid had also seen a play therapist, which is what I do. I'm a play therapist.

And he saw a really well-known play therapist who died in 2024. His name was J.P. Lilly. And when J.P. Lilly believed the child, the courts also said, well, you're an alienator. Like, it was wild to me to watch a situation like this being usually the play therapist in this case, in J.P. Lilly's case. Like, a child comes in. They're doing amazing work. They're feeling safe. They're disclosing things. And suddenly somebody is accusing you of, like, I don't know, somehow alienating the child. Like, it's so weird. And then they had a therapist on there talking about how terrible parental alienation is.

And like, I just don't buy her. All of this. These children locking themselves up in the room, going through most of their childhood in a terrible court battle. And so at the very end, the dad decides to, I don't know, he doesn't just drop the case. He gives up custody of them, which I think is a really just way to make him look selfless and more like the victim. Like, it's just absolutely ridiculous to me. I just don't understand why people don't believe kids. Like, any of this, all of this could have been an email, right?

This one's for all our TV lovers. My Entertainment from DirecTV gets you 60-plus channels and Disney Plus, Hulu, and HBO Max all in one pack. But here's the thing. With so much great TV and My Entertainment, you're going to want to talk about everything that you've been watching. Just remember that your friends might not be as well watched as you. Don't be a spoiler and encourage them to get my entertainment for just $34.99 a month. Go to directTV.com slash genre packs and sign up today. New customers only, service renews monthly and less canceled.

Credit card required conditions apply to apps. HBO Max Basic with ads begin after direct TV five-day trial. Learn more at directTV.com restriction. Okay, so my take on this video specifically is just that I don't think that the kids went to her initially and said that they're being sexually abused. The daughter first came to the mom and said something about daddy putting lotion. And in my opinion, it was something innocent that the mom embellished and elaborated and then said, go tell grandma.

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I just feel like the mom kind of did that. She was like, oh. And then the sun coming at a later, I don't fully remember the details on the sun coming forward years later, but like, I can't fully remember. What's the other TikTok, Kayla? This is Hulu left out from the Nightmare Upstairs documentary. Honestly, I read the ProPublica article of this, and I'm like, Hulu unfair.

The way that the documentary was positioned for viewers to feel that they couldn't choose a side is so wrong because the evidence shows that the children were abused. In 2018, the Utah Child of Family Services said that they found evidence and proof that Brent abused both of his children, Ty and Brinley. It was not only sexual abuse, but it was also emotional abuse. It was noted as being severe and chronic. And that's what led to supervised visits from his end and he had an 150-day restraining order. He was under a criminal investigation until, 2021. And the only reason that they stopped the probe was because they did not have enough evidence

to take it to court and to find a prosecution, but it was noted that there was evidence. So in order for him to not fall victim to any of these, they came up with parental alienation. So the thing with parental alienation is that none of these mainstream, you know, psychology groups believe in it. They don't think it's a legitimate diagnosis. They have denied. that it's like real. Obviously there are cases and it is very real for one parent to put their children against another parent, but it's not a diagnosis, not the way that they're making it seem in the documentary. Now, what's so disgusting about this is that the children's abuse and their recounts of abuse are being used against them, even though they are very specific and based on Utah's

child and family services and their probe and whatnot has not necessarily changed, not like they're saying it has in the documentary. So what happened here is Brent Larson, who is the father of the children, who has now been noted as having abused his children. So Brent Larson, the father and also the perpetrator, right, of the abuse, he came up with a positioning saying that it's parental alienation and that he didn't do anything and pretty much put it back against the victims, his children and his ex-wife. You also have his second wife coming forward saying that he had coached her and pretty much was like, oh, just say that you feel

safe leaving me alone with your kids, et cetera. Like, why would she do that? Why would she even come out and say that he had coached her if he wasn't abusive? And you have her also saying that he was abusive just in general and had really manipulative and controlling behavior. Then you have Michelle Jones. She is a unification therapist at the court appointed. She worked with Ty and Brinley and came to the conclusion that no abuse had ever happened. Even though a forensic psychologist that was hired in 2019 by both parents substantiated that chronic abuse had happened in both the son and daughter. The thing with Michelle Jones and no shade, but she is super for parental alienation.

Like she is someone in the industry that is like pro, like it's it being real. which really goes against everyone else in the industry. She is so for it that she even presents in conferences about parental alienation, trying to substantiate it and trying to make it a thing. I'm going to read this piece, but ProPublica, they actually found a presentation from one of hers from like 2013, where there's a slide of a mother speaking to a child, and it literally says, now that we falsely accused daddy and family court, we can hold ice cream for suffer, play video games, and go to the park all day, and wait for the support checks to roll in.

I don't think this is someone who is very impartial, right, when it comes to this. Now, we should always believe children. That's something that I just 100% feel is real. I don't think that there's any way that these children would have barricaded themselves in a room for 54 days out of fear, and they wouldn't have come forward and dealt with everything that they have dealt with the past couple years and are continuing to deal with, right because of the release of this documentary if none of that was true and i think it's messed up that people are thinking that tie is just covering for his sister when it has been substantiated

that he substantiated i can't that he also was abused and i think this is the moment where we kind of just need discern it when we watch this documentary no shade to hulu but i think that they purposefully edited it to be where viewers aren't sure of what side to go on, et cetera. But what ultimately happened is all this discourse started with people not believing the kids who are victims here. Then there's a case of public opinion against the mom and whatnot when none of that is true. But yeah, I'm happy to dive deeper. Let me know. Okay. So after all of that is being said on those TikToks, my opinion that he would not have fought through all of this. And then at the end, realize, okay, I have fought through this. And my kids are still.

struggling. Like I'm just going to remove myself and, you know, whatever. Like I fully understand that. It's the same. Again, bringing it back to my own situation. My dad, now that I had that closure conversation with him and he explained to me his positioning, I fully understand why he gave up. And I would have done the same thing in my, in his position because at what point do you say, I've done X, Y, and Z. It is not working. I have run out of resources. I've run out of income. I've run out of PTO. I have to call it. I have to call it. I have to throw the towel in. So like, that's sort of where my head is at, but also like, it sucks because it's like I, I don't necessarily, based on what I remember from the documentary, which I watched it, I think,

on Saturday. So I watched it a few days ago. I remember Brindley saying that he put the cream on her, but I don't remember any other, like, the mom was the one that was like embellishing it, right? Or am I crazy? Yeah, I think that sounds right. And then when the kids were therapy, Ty said in front of the therapist that he was, like, touched in bed. But I think that's all we heard him actually say. I think that there are people, too, who do do the parental alienation thing. And then there are other cases where they're saying it's parental alienation, but it's really not.

It's out of pure protection of the kids. So someone said, I don't know. It felt so strange. I wanted to believe the kids, but also what the mom, but also what the mom that thinks somebody did that to her kids is going to drop the charges. For real, knowing that her kids are now going to be forced to spend time with them. That didn't sit right with me. That I feel like the mom dropped the charges to basically be like, let's just make all this go away. Like I dug myself too deep because I know for 100% certainty that I would not drop charges if I knew without a shadow of a doubt that my kids were sexually abused.

and I it wasn't just a gut feeling it was like I know this happened I'm sorry never dropping those charges no I don't care but it almost was like it feels to me from an outsider like let me clean up this mess really quick this went too far it's also odd to me you know if I'm a prosecutor looking at a case like this or looking to bring charges like this like a lot of times even in domestic violence cases the victim or the parental guardians of the victim they can try to drop those charges and the state will pick them back up. You know what I mean?

The state won't allow the drop of the charges, so that's interesting to me, you know? This says that dad dropped the charges when the kids were 18 and 15. Dad now lives in Wyoming. Who do you think's crazier? The mom from unknown caller or the mom from the crash? Oh, man, that's a tough one because they're both insane. Um, I don't know, Zach, what do you think? Um, I just hate McKenzie's mom in the crash. So. True. I think she it's I'm actually good. I'm still reading all these comments on the

post on Facebook and I'm actually surprised by the amount of who are kind of unsure or side with the dad. Um, and I think that's why people, I think that's why people, I think. I think that's why they did decide to do this. I don't know. I have a lot of feelings about it. And I just, I would love to talk to them just privately and just see, like, will the kids ever come around and be like, I don't actually remember any of this? This is just what I was told happened.

Like, do we think that would ever happen? If I was those kids, I probably wouldn't say publicly. They've been through enough. You know what I mean? The kids have been through enough recordless. CoffeeCiCiomo's podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy.

Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Moving on, we do have a foul play. And that foul play, Kayla, if you don't want to be on, that's fine. And if you don't want to be on this episode, Alessandra can edit it out.

Okay, the foul play says, hey, my kitties, I'll jump right in. So while I was working at a local pizza joint, we got this new employee. He was so hot and I got the job of training him. We were flirty off the gate and ended up exchanging numbers. Shortly after this, he invited me to one of his friends' houses after work for a little hangout, and it was a great time. The following weekend, my best friend was having a card game and I asked him to come with me. This specific friend and I had a recent fallout and had just started talking again. So when we got there, me and her immediately started taking shots and catching up.

Many, many shots later, I was totally wasted. Next thing I know, my sister and Mr. Hoddy were putting me in the backseat of my car and driving me home, which was about a five-minute drive. Once I got home, I went straight for the bathroom. I was puking and shitting completely out of it. Mind you, this was our only second. mind you, this was only our second time hanging out outside of work. Him and my sister had the job of cleaning me up and putting me to bed. I was mortified.

He was a sweetie, though, and stayed with me. The next morning, I apologized. I apologized. Needless to say, we have been together every day since that night. Here we are nine amazing years later and will be sitting beside me at the fatherless behavior tour in North Carolina. P.S. I'm a habitual pants shitter myself and relate to you ladies more than you know. XOXO, XO, your fellow kitty cat.

Well, that's great news. I'm so, so nice to know that I don't ship my pants alone. I have to. Have you ever shared? We're going to be together on tour. Zach, be so fucking for real and admit it on this podcast. Unfortunately not. So I'll leave that to you.

No, I can, I can't. What? You mean I was little. Not as an adult. Take it back. I can't take it. So I can make it to the bathroom in time and I don't have issues in that regard. The only thing I can relate to a little bit is I have a bad bladder and I like the second I have to pee, I'm like, I need to run to go pee right now.

But like, no, I've never shit myself. Sorry. What does I like to? Yeah. I think that's the only one. way I'm God's favorite in that. Me and Kayla texted each other not that long ago. And we were both shitting on the side of the road.

In the literal same day. She literally texted me and I texted her. I said, Kayla, I just did the same thing. We are having bowel issues at killer. We are having about like I am being tested for a celiac disease because I can't stop shitting myself. Yep. Like, I texted you that night because I was like, hey, like, I can't get this post up.

I'm really sorry. I'm like literally on the side of the road, shitting myself. And you're like, no way, same. And I'm like, honestly, thank God. You know what I mean? So it's one of those things where you just do your best. But honestly, if you're, if you're hanging out with someone and on the first or the second time, you're willing to clean up their vomit or their shit and you're willing to like go through

the trenches with them, like you should be together forever. 100%. Have you ever made up shit for someone? Yeah. And also since I don't drink, I'm usually the like the designated driver, the put my friend in bed, the cleanup, the throw up.

I'm usually that friend. 1,000%. There was one time my ex and my best friend drank so much that they were so fucked up. And we put them to bed and then they were cuddling because they were so fucked up they didn't realize.

So I took a picture of them and then threw it at them while they were sleeping because I was like, damn, like, we put you to bed because you were fucked up. That doesn't give you the permission to fucking cuddle. So, well, there you have it. There's our take on the nightmare upstairs and the crash.

And on that note, every episode after this until mid-June was pre-recorded. And you guys can catch up with us on Thursdays. Thank you, Zach. And thank you, Kayla, as well, for being a part of it. We'll be on the podcast today. Thank you. Bye.

Thanks, guys. Hey, guys, we're back. You asked for it and we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on kaleowry.com. And if you want early access to information and announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else.

At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows and they were all free.

The truth is ours. It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 NX files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never.

Hi there, it's Becca Tobin. I am currently the mother of a four-year-old, which means I have been through it, but I still have questions and maybe even a few answers. From surrogacy to toddler chaos, I have learned a lot and also not nearly enough. That's why I decided to launch Baby Gang, a six-part series from the Lady Gang, where I'm getting real about fertility, parenting, and all the stuff nobody actually tells you. I'm bringing in some experts for the tough stuff and some other celeb moms and friends for parenting survival stuff. It's honest, it's messy, it's emotional, and yes, we are definitely laughing. through it because whether you're in it, thinking about it, or just curious, we've got you. So join the baby gang wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of CoffeeConvo's podcast is brought to you by booking.com.

Here's the thing. Most vacation rental hosts don't even realize they can list their properties on booking.com. And if you're not on the platform, your rental is basically invisible to millions of booking.com travelers worldwide. After all, they can't book what they can't see, right? Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach. Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen. Get booked on booking.com.