Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - True Crime Talk: Elizabeth Smart

Episode Date: June 20, 2022

[TW: GRAPHIC DEPICTIONS OF SEXUAL ASSUALT & VIOLENCE] On this month's true crime bonus episode - the 2002 kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. At the age of 14, Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped from her home in Salt Lake City, Utah, and held captive for 9 months before being rescued. She is now an advocate for Child Safety. Thank you to our sponsors! Calm: Visit CALM.COM/convos for 40% off a Calm Premium subscription

I hate gift giving and receiving. Receiving gifts is so weird. What do you say, thank you? This is Coffee Convos with Kale Lowry and Lindsey Chrisley. I really want you to be in your feels, Kale. That does not interest me whatsoever. I feel very attacked by you. A spirited discussion about motherhood, friendship,

family, and life in the public eye. I'm just not with the fakery anymore. There's a fakery bakery around here. Here's Kale and Lindsey. Hello, is anyone there? Hello. Hi. After our audio issue the other day,

I think that's a very fair question to ask. Hello, is anyone there? Should that be the name of the episode? Hello, is anybody there? I just don't have control today. I don't, I don't, I wasn't the one letting people in the studio and like pressing record. So it feels very weird to just like sit here.

So you're saying that you need to go to therapy because of your control issues? Yeah, that sounds about right. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Coffee Convos podcast. True crime, our entire life feels like a crime. So, here we are. Got a couple things I need to say to you guys.

First of all, tell me to shut the fuck up if you already talked about this, but I'd never got a therapy update from you. That's one. The second thing is, is that I might be the worst driver of the three of us. Third thing I need to say is everyone, Kristen is joining us on this true crime episode.

And I thought it would be fun because I did me, Caroline, and Heather on the Southern Tea and it was so fun yesterday. And I was like, yeah, we all just need to have like a little Coffee Convos powwow. Like, I thought you were going to call it a threesome and I got really excited. Not having a threesome with you, bitches.

No, no. Let me find out about the therapy update. I need to know the things. What can you tell me? Okay, well, I'm still in therapy, regular talk therapy twice a week. And then on Monday night, I started, I had an late appointment with a new psychiatrist

who is completely listened to me. Gave me the full hour. We probably went over a few minutes, did like an in-depth situation and decided that, yeah, Zoloft is not for me. It's not working for me. It does work for other people. But, so I started tapering off that

and I started Lexapro. Okay, so what are the differences in Zoloft and Lexapro? Like, are they different classes of medicine? Are they? So they're both SSRIs, which is, I believe, a selective select, serotonin reuptake inhibitor. They're the same, but they're different in the, like, I guess, and I hope I'm explaining this right,

the like receptors that they activate. And so this one might be more of like, a little bit more energy, a little bit more motivation versus like mellowing me out. Got it, yeah. I mean, I feel like you're pretty mellow really regularly in life. I mean, outside of like your chaos with your kids.

I mean, when we go on like work trips and stuff, you're pretty, pretty even outside of the Zoloft. I was mostly worried about your orgasms, like anything. I've already felt like a little bit of a boost in that area. So I'm very confident. Also, he is ordering- So you're getting off. That's not what you're telling me.

He's also ordering the genocide testing for, in the event that the Lexapro doesn't work because it does take like three to six weeks to actually start seeing effects. The testing will help. In the event that the Lexapro doesn't work, it'll tell us what meds will work. So I'm thankful for that.

And then I go back in two weeks to the psychiatrist. I updated my therapist already. She's on vacation this week, but he also is gonna do a more in-depth evaluation for ADHD, which I am excited about because I just know I have it. I'm also excited. You're like, I just know. Yeah.

I'm just very aware. I know, no. I will say one of the, and I don't know if you do this or not, but one of my worst traits or qualities, whatever you wanna call them, you couldn't even call it a quality because like this shit sucks,

but I will start stuff and get it to like a midway point and then my mind goes to something else. Yep. And then I'll like halfway do that. Yep. And then I gotta like go back, but the chances of me going back and like finishing that first thing that I started.

Slim to none. Slim to none, literally. It took me three hours to get ready the other day for something that normally would take me maybe one hour because I was just like stopping when I was doing to go do other shit. And I was just like, for what? Like, why can't I just complete one task and be done?

Yeah, I don't, it's something in the brain. Like something's going on up there that like can't work. And I'm like, okay, can we please explain why I folded towels? They look like something that you would see at a hotel and it took me a lot of time to do that. But then the process of getting the towels to like where they need to be,

nope, I've already started a new task. That sounds exactly like me. So I'm glad that I'm not alone in this. I love that. Also, I needed to tell you guys that I was electively late to this episode because I realized at 11.54, knowing that I needed to be on the recording at 12 o'clock,

that I am a single mom. I need to feed my child. And I also needed a Coke to be able to show up here and like be in this mood. And I got on the road and realized that there was some construction going on. And like I had not prepared the distance from my house to the Chick-fil-A for a slowdown.

Like my preparation was like speed, okay? Like I'm speeding there and then I'm gonna get it and be back by 12. No, there was literal construction signs that were going on to the point that I was trying to go so fast that my car stopped itself. So, oh my God. So you're the worst driver.

And you would just say, I'm bad. Yeah. No, Kristen, literally, I was not part of that conversation whenever you guys had it. But what I will say is that Kristen is the scariest driver that I think that I have ever been in the vehicle with. But the worst part about it is, is I electively get in that car time and time again.

No way that she's behind the wheel. You know that you're not gonna die. But you know you're not gonna die. You're just scared. You may. You know that TikTok where it's like every turn, every ditch, every curb, every whatever. I'm like, if that's not Kristen,

like we need to do that TikTok because there is not a curb or a ditch that Kristen has not found. That'll be the next TikTok. Oh my God. I know exactly the song you're talking about. It's Jason Aldean. Wait, yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Wait, tell me about your car story after recording Kristen. Your driving story. My driving story. What do you want? You text me about it. Don't act like you're brand new. Oh, no.

So yesterday I had to pick my mom up from work because I had her car because I dropped her off for some testing. And her car actually has that feature where it stops itself as well. And some asshole cut me off on the highway and my car did that thing on the highway. And I immediately changed lanes,

but evidently in the Toyota like you had, or you had a RAV force. I don't know if it had this before you had it. She's laughing already. She's laughing already. If you like try to get out of your lane too fast, it pulls you back over. So I was battling my mom's vehicle yesterday.

And I was just like, oh, this would be really good because this is not even my fault. Like I got cut off. So then I was like. It literally feels like you don't even have power steering in that bitch. It was like, what happened?

It was so, so bad. I was like, I don't know if there's some malfunction because I've never had that happen in my car. And then my mom told me she was terrified to get in the car with me when I picked her up, so. Well, that's a common theme in my life. That makes her terrified, me terrified, and also Kale terrified.

But the worst part is, is Kale like electively gets in the front seat of the car and also stays on her phone and tick-tocks the entire time. And I'm just in the back seat, like. She knows she's not going to die. It just feels like it. Literally. I wish everybody could see my face right now.

So, okay, we're going to get into the true crime stuff, but does everybody have their Chick-fil-A Coke or like, no? I had one already. I'm drinking water now. I have regular like canned Coke because I couldn't go to a Chick-fil-A in time. That's offensive. Wait, before we get into this,

then that brings up a topic that is like, has to be discussed at this point. In order of Cokes, like, there is a list of like best to worst and what is that list like for you? Like where does it start? Is it like Fountain Coke, specifically like McDonald's and Chick-fil-A?

Canned Coke. Sonic. Oh, Sonic. Sonic fucks for real. Then it's canned Coke over ice. Or, oh, you guys, I just saw a bird, but it was just my eyelash flying off. I need to tell you guys that. What's wrong with you? Look at it.

It's right here. Okay, so then it's canned Coke, but that's like got to be super cold or it's got to be over like pellet ice. Do you guys have a nugget ice maker because if you don't, invest. Yeah, no, I agree. I don't like the cubes from like the freezer

because it waters it down so quickly. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you on that. And then bottled is like the worst. It's the worst, but it's like, I will still drink it, but then I'm going to be asked why I only like took the head off, but like the rest is like not touched. Yeah, it goes flat so fast.

It's so, so fast. Wait, okay, need to update you guys on this too. When have my eyelashes done? I look like something's going on. Like, can you guys see this one lash right here? Don't act like you can't see it. If I've lost your lashes. I was learning so we can't see it.

I can't see it. Okay, well, this other eye has no lashes attached. I got these things on on Friday and they just fly away. And when they drop because they're so thick, I literally feel like it's a net. It's a fly. It's a bird, like something going on. And that's what happened with this little guy.

So I'm glad that we have established that we started this podcast in 2017 and Kale was not controlled, rogue, find predictable. And now I've turned into her. Like Kale is way more predictable now. And I'm just like off the map. I should be on one of those shows

where you like live off the grid. Oh my God. So should we? Or should we both? Yeah, I think that would be so amazing. Yeah. And by the way, I just need to let you know we're gonna talk about Elizabeth Smart.

I watched her stuff like real time and was absolutely terrified to go to sleep for like a long period of time. But before I do this, I just need to forewarn you that Kristen is gonna be connecting me to hot neighbor, hot boyfriend, Elijah. And I'm going to be asking him questions

that the kitties wanna know. Okay. Okay. Then can Kale do some ribbon dab? Yeah. He, Elijah, sometimes he just is a man of very few words. And so sometimes when he speaks, you can't understand him. So you might have to say like, what?

That's fine. I'm gonna be like, Elijah, can you please repeat yourself in more words than one? He just like sometimes he'll say things. And I have to say what like three times because it just sounds like he has rocks in his mouth. And it's funny because that's just like, he's just like a like real mellow, calm, like chill guy.

And so everything is like just quiet. He's soft spoken. Soft spoken, thank you. Wait, we never got a clarification. And I talked to, I was talking shit about you last night for two things with Kristen. One thing was about how you're so specific about your water and the kind of water that you drink

and how to make everybody else drink different one. And then the other thing that I was talking shit about was like, how did he become hot neighbor to hot boyfriend to Elijah? Like that's a lot of things that are going on. And like, how did we transition from like this? Is this too much to ask? Let's touch the water first.

The clarification was because somebody, actually multiple somebodies are stealing all Lindsay's Alani and I said, be like Kale and tell people, don't drink my shit. Yeah, I don't let people, I don't like when people drink my essential water. I get really annoyed and pissed off. It's so expensive.

It's so expensive. No, Kale's like this period. Like when she orders water, like when we're on a trip, you know specifically that that water belongs to Kailin Ray Lowry and I'm not even looking at it in that direction, like not going there. So I understand, but like you are foul if you come up in my house

and you take the last blueberry Alani and that's all I'm gonna say on that. That is fucked up. That's really fucked up. Okay. And anybody who's listening to this, y'all know who you are. So it's a pathetic, my parents used to say growing up,

I'm gonna put a lock like on the pantry or I'm gonna put a lock on the fridge because you guys just steal all the shit. Yeah. I've gotten to that point where I'm like, I'm locking everything up. Like Lindsay's gonna get a mini fridge locked. Literally, like in my closet where I record,

like it's gonna be like blow it, all my Alamis. I'm like, fuck you guys, like the closet's gonna be locked. I'm in here at this point, it's theft. It is theft, like you were trespassing. It's theft. Okay, so hot boyfriend. He's still hot boyfriend.

I still- Hot neighbor to hot boyfriend. But how did you tell the kids that he was no longer, well, I guess he still is hot neighbor because he is a hot neighbor. But how did he transition to hot boyfriend to Elijah? Well, once we started saying his name on the podcast, I was just kind of like Elijah, but hot boyfriend is still,

like I call him hot boyfriend. And- Was he down with these names and like being undercover? I don't think he gives a shit. Like I don't think he is so like mellow and just like chill. I mean, he didn't even yell at me about the kittens yesterday. Okay, that's a whole nother conversation. I'm gonna save that for like the regular

weekly recording episode. Great. I'm also going to screenshot the last few things that were said in that group chat so that Kristen can post them on the stories because between the Cheeto conversation that I went back and read that literally sounded like we were talking about dicks

to the cat collab that you're doing like at your house, I'm not well. Let's talk about calm. This is a busy season transitioning from spring to summer and I get a little overwhelmed with end of the year events for the kids' schools because I don't know, sometimes I have to pick and choose which one to go to and I have my own stuff and work stuff and whatever.

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Go to calm.com slash combos for 40% off unlimited access to calm's entire library. That's calm.com slash combos. So Elizabeth Smart, what do you know about it, Kale? So I, yeah, I was vaguely familiar with the case before you picked this one, but I did not know details really or I just knew that she was abducted at some point

and returned safely upon further research. I was actually really shocked by the details. I didn't know even more than half of the stuff that transpired. So this was so crazy. And my parents actually followed the Natalie Holloway stuff, which is why I so heavily followed that because obviously like I was still at home.

And then also they heavily followed the Elizabeth Smart stuff. So then like I was just a part of that. Basically, I'm just a follower. She was kidnapped from her home in Salt Lake City, Utah at 14 years old. And I just want to say like, not that I am making light of this situation whatsoever, but at 14 years old,

that is like very important years of like a kid's life. And I feel like you're like kind of finding out who you are. You're probably like going through puberty. I don't think I started my period until I was like 14 years old. So I'm just thinking if I was going to be kidnapped, I wouldn't want it to be at 14, not that we have choices. But what was so interesting to me was the fact

that she just grew up in such like a safe and protected environment. And I have seen firsthand cause I also grew up that way. And just based on the things that have currently gone on with my family and like predatory behavior, I feel like a true predator might seek out a family that seems like very safe and protected.

And I don't know that these people would have had any thought whatsoever to like hire somebody to do work, like to be a good steward of their money and to be able to like give to other people. I don't think that that was ever like a thought that crossed their mind. So when I learned that people,

that the smarts had a ton of people working on their house, I don't mean to be vain, but I thought about myself because I do the same thing, but it does cross my mind. Like whenever I first moved to Delaware and I had my first house, I had a lot of work done. It was two brothers who owned a contracting business, felt very safe, never had an issue. Moving on to the next house that I bought,

their company also grew by that time. And they, I had said to the owner, I said, Dan, I said, you know, who are these people that are working for you? Because, you know, I just didn't know who they were. And he said it's really hard at the time. This was a couple of years ago. It was really hard to get like a steady crew,

people who wanted to come to work, people who showed up and a lot of them were addicts. And that's when I started to be concerned. Like, of course I want to give everyone a chance. Of course I want to give someone an opportunity to turn their life around, but at the same time I have kids in this house. And so it does scare me

when this isn't a regular crew that you have, and you're just getting whoever you can to come work at the house where I'm raising my children. Yes. So I was going to say, I think after doing a bunch of research on this case that it has opened my eyes, like I never would leave Jackson here

by himself with anybody. But like for me as a single mom with a young child, now I'm kind of like, okay, the policy just needs to be like, unless Heather and I are both here with Jackson, I don't need to have someone coming in doing work. And that's nothing against like contract workers, like anything like that.

That is just for the safety of myself and my kid. Like you never know what could happen. And when you don't know people and you're allowing them into your home, actually the first time I ever like really got scared was when I was building this house and I talked about it on Instagram and people were asking for my floor plan.

Someone had actually sent me a message and was like, hey, like just wanna give you a heads up. There's like probably creepers on here that follow you. And it's probably not a good idea to post your floor plan because if anybody was ever gonna like case you or like try to come there, they would know exactly like the entry points of your house and whatever.

And like that's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. It's absolute. I mean, I even think about people that I know, like you just don't know. Like yeah, they've done work or maybe you know them through other people but you just never know what anyone is capable of,

especially because we are women that live alone. That was, I remember when Kale was building her house, people asked her for her floor plan too. And she was very careful to like not show like how one room really led into another or like any of the entry and exit points of the home. And like that was something I think we were probably the most cognizant over of this house,

just learning from before. And it even got to the point where I remember Kale, you asked MTV to, what was it called? Like a fake facade, like show not the front of your house. Yeah, I asked them to stop showing where I actually lived and asked them to show a different house. It just gets scary and like thinking about you guys are in the public, it's that much scarier.

So I feel like you're automatically more of a target than like other people because people think you guys have stuff and whatever. I just want y'all to know, besides my children and my animals, I don't have valuables. Like I don't have expensive jewelry. I don't have expensive clothes.

I don't have expensive shoes. Like I have nothing. So if anyone wants to, you know, come grab something, it would probably not be worth your time. So my thoughts, I've actually thought about this in the car before. I'm like, if I go to like a part of town where there's like obvious break-ins and like shit,

like crime-ridden, mainly like near the courthouse and stuff, I'll just leave my car unlocked. I'm like, please, like I might put a sticky note on the side of my door. Like please just don't bust my fucking window, case this entire shit, like take everything that you want. But I have nothing expensive. Like literally, like my nugget ice maker,

like you're going to take that. But no, seriously, not the ice maker. Like seriously, you don't think about it, but letting someone into your home, if they had a plan, they could like bamboozle you to be able to get in your house, it only takes two seconds for them to like switch the, switch a lock, switch on the window,

you know, to like open the window so they could be able to get in. Like you don't know. No, I agree. So basically, Elizabeth had said, because I watched this documentary on her and it was, you know, her talking and telling her story. And she said that she grew up not unintelligent,

but naive and like very naive. And I can just very much relate to this because I feel like I grew up in the same way. I had access to great education, but as far as like common sense smarts or like street smarts, no. And that's something that I have had to learn just through experiences of life

and really like being with my life publicly on social media that and truly setting true crime for coffee combos podcast that has made me less naive to things that go on. But I think that that's how stuff like this can very much happen when you have blinders up and think that this can't happen to you. Cause we all probably at some point hear a story

and you're like, that would never happen to me. Right. Well, so I have, it's so funny that you brought that up cause I mean, I remember like literally ripping and running the streets as a kid and you're just, you feel invincible. Like it never crossed my mind in all of my crazy years of like literally walking the streets at 2am

to go walk to my friend's house and things like that. Never ever thought, oh, I could be abducted at any time. And my kids wanted to ride their bikes down to the dollar general by my house or the family dollar by my house. Yeah. Probably a quarter of a mile from my house. Like not even, like I can see it

if I walk to the drive, if I walk to the top of the driveway and I told them, no, like you can't, no, you can't and that sucks. Cause like part of me is like, I want them to have some independence and freedom and to be able to do that. I did it, but I just at this point in my life, I'm not naive and I know that anything could happen

at any time and I'm not, you're not, you know, riding your bike to the store is not happening. It makes me want to like interview people who do crimes like this to just kind of like get in their head and figure out at what point did they feel that it was a good idea to like kidnap this person and think that they were going to get away with it for a very long time.

I remember Elizabeth saying that Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzy who were her kidnappers felt like they were both invincible and they got away with everything and they had a plan for everything. And so I just wonder what type of mental health issues are going on with these people that caused them to have that thought process.

And especially like in today's time, maybe more so like when this happened, the internet was still rather new, like this was in 2002. Definitely not what it is today. And with the amount of cameras and stuff that are everywhere, I don't feel like somebody could get away with this

as much today as they did then. But I just don't know what is going through their mind when they're doing this. And is it like impulsive acts? To me, this seemed very planned out. Yeah, I think it was very, very planned out, very strategic. The details are absolutely horrific and I just don't even know how

they were able to pull this off. So just imagine like being in your bedroom, like close your eyes for a second and just imagine being in your bedroom where you should feel is super safe and you're in there with your sister, you're 14 years old. And you are abducted at knife point.

And then for the next nine months after this abduction takes place, you are raped daily, tied up and threatened to death if you even attempt to escape. The quote that he said when Brian abducted her and he goes by Emmanuel, that's what Wanda Barzee calls him, Emmanuel. I have a knife at your neck.

Don't make a sound, get up and come with me. And teeth are meant to kill her family and her if she didn't do it. Yeah, so like think about the mental stuff that's going on there and the burden that Elizabeth was carrying knowing that like if she didn't do the things that he told her to do that her family was at risk to all be killed.

That's so heavy. And then to know that her sister, was the only person that witnessed this, Mary Catherine. It took her a little bit, but she finally worked up enough courage to run across to her parents' bedroom and tell them. And her parents literally thought that she was having a dream.

Did you see the part in your research or read the part where she actually tried to tell her parents when she thought that they had left the house, like her sister was gone and the kidnapper at that point? She know what? Yes, so she saw this like all go down because they were sleeping in the same bed.

She pretended to be sleeping. Then she went to go try and tell her parents, but actually almost ran into them in the hallway and they were outside of her brother's room, like she had, I believe it was four brothers. Yeah, so there was Charles, Edward Smart Jr. and Andrew Smart. Those were the only ones that I really did research into.

So if there is another one, I didn't research him, but those were the ones. They were outside the brother's room, so she crept back into her room, hid back in bed until she was completely sure they were gone and was there for roughly two hours, they said, before she finally worked up the courage to leave her room again to go tell her parents

around four in the morning. I wonder why her parents were outside of her brother's room. No, it was the kidnappers. Oh, the kidnappers. Yeah, it was the kidnapper and then her sister were stopped outside of the brother's room in the hallway for some reason.

So she almost ran into them when she went to go to her parents' room to tell them that someone had just taken her sister. Holy shit, I was about to come up with a whole nother conspiracy when you said that. I was like, wait, the parents were outside the room? I thought they were sleeping. Yeah, no, they were sleeping.

So just the fact that you watched it happen and then you run into them, like almost run into them again, I would have shit my pants on the spot. Also saying. I also would have shit myself. But I think a natural reaction for me would have been to scream.

Like, right, you're so startled that, yeah. But you can't really say, because unless you were in that situation, I think that you just don't know what you're gonna do. You can say all these hypotheticals of what you're gonna do, but let's be honest, like, I don't know what I would do. But Mary Catherine was the only one

who had seen the suspect. So she was the only one that could describe him. And the doc that I watched was just talking about how there was just like not a lot of information to pursue based off of the information that she had given. A lot of questions that came up repeatedly throughout this documentary was why questions.

Like why when your captors took you out in public, did you not escape? They took her to a party. Like why couldn't she escape then? She encountered police officers. Why didn't she tell them who she was then? Questions about sympathizing with her captors. And why didn't she try to save herself?

And I think these are all such insensitive questions to even ask because unless you're in that situation, you don't know what type of pressure is being applied to you. Yeah, and they say a lot. Like there's oftentimes a lot of people who have been kidnapped say that they could have escaped sooner, but they're terrified.

And I saw in one of the articles I was reading for, I was actually a pretty recent interview that she did talking about like the 20 years after being kidnapped and how everything's going. She said that everybody talks about fight or flight. Freeze is becoming accepted. But I forget the word she used, but she's like the thing that's not talked about

is people who will just like try and do whatever they can just to survive. So they will do anything they can to keep their captors happy. Or trying to just trying to survive. So I thought that that was interesting because you see that recurring theme with a lot of people who have been kidnapped and held for a long period of time

that they were trying to like just be complicit basically. You know who it made me think of whenever I was doing all this research was Gypsy Rose Blanchard and like the Stockholm syndrome. How she knew everything that was going on was wrong. And she kind of wanted to do her own investigation on whatever ultimately ended very differently than this. But same similar type things of,

I don't wanna really say like sympathizing with your captor, but like that becomes your new norm, right? Like that is your new sense of normalcy and you're just doing whatever you can do to survive until the next day. Yeah, so that's actually what she was talking about. They, she basically was going against how everyone's like, oh, she had Stockholm and said people don't actually

understand what Stockholm is. Like she did not fall in love with them. She did not sympathize with them. She literally was just trying to stay alive. And she's like, there is a huge difference and it's not being talked about enough where exactly like Gypsy Rose where I almost wouldn't even consider that Stockholm.

It was just a survival tactic at that point. So there are people who have Stockholm syndrome, but Elizabeth said that like that is not the case with her pretty recently. It was in June of this year actually. Because this past June I think was her 20 year anniversary. Isn't that crazy? Like that you can have like an anniversary

for your kidnapping. And she says in the post, she says that she typically does not focus on the day that she was kidnapped. She typically focuses on the day that she was rescued, but 20 years seemed like a big deal for her to post about. But I want to kind of walk our listeners through the beginning of this case. And like she was kidnapped from her bed

that she shared with her sister. I don't know if you saw any of the research about the window being cut open in the kitchen. Yeah, so the mom had burnt dinner. Was it potatoes? Yeah, potatoes. Yeah. She had burnt dinner and raised the window

and then they went off to some event, right? And then that's how they were able to get in. And to me, I'm just like, as a mother, you can give more details for whatever you know. But like as a mother, I would feel so guilty of that, even though it was like such an innocent thing. You know what I mean? It's just like I was trying to let smoke out,

but ultimately kidnappers were able to get in. So from what I read, so this was all June 5th, 2002, just to give a date for everybody. From what I read, so the mom burnt dinner, but Elizabeth said she's the one who opened the window and left it open. Elizabeth said that? Because that's not the documentary that I,

it said that the mom opened it. Interesting. Yeah, so a little unknown there. Anyone who's listening? I would feel bad. I'm not even a mom, but I would feel bad if I left something opened, for sure. Immediately when I saw it, I was like, oh my god,

that is horrible. I would feel so guilty. So yeah, that happens, and then they leave, and that's how they get in. Yes, so Elizabeth's sister, Mary Catherine, was nine, is what I read at the time that this all happened. She was sharing a bed with Elizabeth. She woke up to hearing this guy's voice

talking to her sister, so she got scared. And obviously, I feel like that's a pretty normal reaction for a nine-year-old to pretend like you're sleeping. Yeah, I still pretend like I'm sleeping. Right. I don't know. I don't know about that. I mean, obviously for her, she did what she could,

but I, well, Lincoln, come here real quick. Tell us what you would do. Let's traumatize you real quick. Yeah, literally. I just want to know, like, what do you would do? Hold on. What are you going to ask him? Hey, Lincoln, if you were kidnapped, my god,

what's the child? OK, so if you're sharing a room with one of your brothers and an intruder comes in and kidnaps your brother, are you going to get up or are you going to pretend like you're asleep? No, of course I'm going to get up. You're going to get up and do what? Are you not scared?

It depends. It depends. So what if they have a knife and they're, like, telling your brother, only your brother, not you. My god. Only your brother, get up and follow me or I will kill you. Are you going to get up or are you going to pretend to be asleep and then come get me?

Well, I will just pretend to sleep when he walks. Yep, you guys are right. He said that he would pretend to sleep until he leaves the room and then he would come get me. Yeah, so she said that she was pretending to be asleep and then reported the following later that she saw a white man about the height of her brother Charles, which was 58, about 30 or 40, had dark hair

and threatened her sister with what she thought was a gun that ended up being, obviously, a knife. It was reported that Elizabeth evidently subbed her toe and said, ouch, and she heard the kidnapper say something like, you better be quiet and I won't hurt you. And then said that she heard Elizabeth ask, why are you doing this? She couldn't make out what the answer was,

but thought that she said something, the kidnapper said something about for ransom. She said that he spoke quietly. The voice seemed familiar, but she couldn't pinpoint it. And she actually never saw his face, and that fact was evidently kept secret by the police during the investigation. They didn't want her Elizabeth's kidnapper to know

that his face wasn't seen, which I thought was interesting because wouldn't that make her a target? I mean, I guess their perspective on that is that they obviously, if he's seeing anything, that they want him to know or to think, we know who you are. Like that's obviously like what they're going with. We know your face, blah, blah, blah. But that's interesting.

I didn't know that. Yeah. So I think the quote was, I'm taking you hostage for ransom. It's like what she overheard. And the whole thing is just terrifying. Can you just imagine having this happen and you're waking up like to this? That would be like waking up to the ultimate hell.

No, literally. Anytime I get abruptly woken up, like I'm already in a panic, like my nervous system is shot if I'm like abruptly woken up by anything. So I can't imagine being a kid and having that happen. Correct. Like I just can't, I can't even imagine. So this was around 2 AM, right?

When this is happening, is that what you guys have? Yes. OK. So at 3 58 AM, that's when Mary Catherine Smart, at that point, got the courage to go and wake up her parents. Charles Smart says that he remembers his dad coming in and looking for Elizabeth. And then at 4 1 AM, Edward Smart Jr.

remembers waking up to his mother screaming and crying and said it was the worst sound that he had ever heard in his entire life. Andrew Smart recalls seeing some, never seeing something like it before. And the way that their mother was acting was just something that you could not even fathom. At this point, they call the police, family and friends

try to get help. And once they call the police, it is just insane, like from that point, because so much I want to say about like the crime scene, everything. I know that there's some like Jon Benet Ramsey stuff that I want to touch on. I literally texted Kristen that. I literally texted Kristen this morning.

And I said, this made me think of Jon Benet Ramsey. Because at first, like I said, in the beginning of this, I had no idea what this was. So at first, I thought maybe the parents were involved because they had all these people come over. And they all came and went before the police even got there. And then once the police cut off like access to the quote crime scene, three hours had already gone by.

So it was already contaminated. And I immediately thought of Jon Benet Ramsey. Absolutely. So where do we want to go from here? So we have all the time frames, the people that are of importance and their responses. At 6 30 AM, I want to get into like Elizabeth Smart's accounts. But if you guys have anything else

that you want to cover before I get into that stuff and the background of Brian Mitchell or Emmanuel and his involvement with the smarts, then somebody can take that. I would say should we do like how they met Brian Mitchell? Yeah. After like Elizabeth's found and they identified him? Yeah.

OK. So at 6 30 AM, Elizabeth claims that she has on these bright red pajamas and that the sun had started to come up. And at this point, she was with Brian Mitchell, obviously. And he started getting nervous. And he told Elizabeth that she needed to run across the mountain where they were

because she looked like a bright red flame. And he didn't want any early morning runners to see her in her pajamas or how lovely she looked, which in this doc that I watched, that was, I mean, there's a lot of creepy things. But just like that just kind of like hit weird for me, like how lovely she looked in her pajamas. So while he was taking her up the mountain,

that's when she recognized him. And she knew that she had saw him with their mom and siblings when they were getting close for school. Her brother said that he saw him and he had alleged that he really needed some work or help and that they could help him. He was clean shaven at the time and their mom gave him $5. The next time she saw him was when

he came to work for their dad. And then the next time she saw him was the night that he kidnapped her. He later said, as soon as he saw Elizabeth with her mom, that he knew that she was the girl that he was going to kidnap. So right there, that tells me this is completely premeditated. He had a target and was looking specifically for her.

This wasn't just like, which one can I get type thing. He had actually come to their house several times before to find the best route, which he would take. He would take her from the home and kidnap her. He's got the layout and everything. She soon found out that he had a wife. Elizabeth was just finding all this information out as she's going up this mountain.

And it made her think that maybe she was being kidnapped because they couldn't have children. And at this point, she realized he was not just going to rape and murder her. She got to a place where this tent was set up and it showed exactly what it looked like. It was like a bunch of trees. And then in the middle, it was pretty cleared out.

And she said that she was so alarmed by the woman, which was Wanda Barzy. She said that she looked very scary and like a witch. And the way that she was hugging her was not like a nice comforting hug. It was mainly like an embrace that she was telling her that if she ever did anything that she didn't want to do, that she would be sorry.

And there was like a couple of things. I don't know if you guys find this weird, but Wanda started washing her feet and then started to try to undress her. And she told Elizabeth if she didn't take her pajamas and underwear off, she would call in Emmanuel. And he would come and rip them off. So I don't really, I tried not to look too deep

into the relationship with Emmanuel, Brian, Wanda, whatever. Look too deep into that relationship because the makeup is very strange. I don't know what type of woman would be a participant in this. That was crazy to me. Was that like a woman?

And she's, she had her own kids. So like you're a woman and a mother and you're letting this happen to a child. Like I didn't look too much into that either. But I just knew that there was obviously very clearly mental issues at play. So I didn't really chop it up too much. One thing that I thought of though, I was like, OK, well,

what if this woman is groomed by Emmanuel to like do these things, right? Could be. I definitely thought that, yes, while Barzy was a part of this, I definitely thought that she was also maybe groomed as well. Yeah, that's just the take that I kind of, that's what I gathered, that she had probably been groomed.

And that's why these, not that it's an excuse for these behaviors, but I think it was all groomed behavior. So then late morning, June 5, 2002, Elizabeth had been raped in the tent by Emmanuel. And at this point, she could tell that he was in the tent with her. And I mean, I just can't even imagine like one,

she had never had her period, never had sex. She's been taken up this mountain. She's with this couple who have both been forceful with her. The wife knows that her husband is coming in to rape this girl. And then she goes to sleep because she says that she can't move. She's just laying there wondering how this could possibly happen to her.

And all these thoughts running through her mind. And she can feel his energy in the tent like she knows he's there. Yeah, so I read that before they even got to the tent when he, and she said this in her June 1, 2022 interview with Gayle King on CBS Mornings, that she actually asked him while they were going up the mountain if she was going to be raped and killed.

And she said, I said, if you're going to rape and kill me, could you do it here? And it was important to her that her parents knew what had happened to her, that they knew that it was not her choice, that she didn't run away. And she wanted them to find her body. And she recalled him looking at her smiling and said, no, I'm not going to do that to you yet.

So just like this year, terror. And I mean, not to say that any timing is good in that situation with those circumstances. But I think the unknown of when something is going to happen makes that situation so much more. Because you've got to consider all the factors of anxiety that's playing into that. The unknown of, I know this is going to happen to me,

but when is this going to happen to me? She said that he had a metal cable when she woke up in the tent, that he had a metal cable that he was wrapping around her ankle. And once she was chained up, she looked around the camp and realized at that point how prepared and planned out. And everything was. And at that moment, she said that she very quickly

realized that he did not have plans to kill her, that that was going to be her life. How horrible is that? It's unfathomable. I did listen to another podcast that said that they chained her up to a tree and they would force her to drink alcohol. And she had never had alcohol before.

So I mean, we're talking about so many things at once. And at one point, she even was afraid that her parents wouldn't want her anymore because they were pretty religious. And once they found out that she had been sexually assaulted and forced to drink alcohol, that her parents wouldn't love her and want her anymore. Yeah, she said that because of her real.

That was something that kind of stuck out to me. So when I was researching this for this episode, I knew that they were part of the Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Church. And just her saying that her exact words were like, I felt destroyed. And nobody would ever want me anymore. And she said a lot of that had to do with her faith.

And that was so sad to me because you hear other people that have gone through similar experiences that say that they prayed to God and they leaned on their faith. So for someone who came from such a religious family to not really be able to turn to her religion that she had been raised in and actually thought that they would turn their back on her,

I was like, wow, you really must have felt like you had absolutely nobody and nowhere to turn. I can only, obviously, never kidnap. Somebody would bring me back for sure. But I can remember distinctly, and I talked about this with my parents, and the part that your upbringing plays into factors like this and the thinking behind it,

I was raised to save myself for marriage. And I knew once I had sex with Will for the first time that that was my destiny, that I was going to marry him because that was what was instilled in me my whole life. And you save yourself for your husband. And so I can very much understand why she would have had the thought process that she did and why that would have been of concern of her.

Did you see the part, did either of you see the part where she said that he performed a marriage ceremony before he married her for the first time? And then said that he had to consummate the marriage, and that's when she knew that he was going to rape her? Yeah. So that must have been a whole other form of psychological torture, because kind of what Lindsay

just said, even though it was not consensual sex, she probably, that probably had some impact on her, knowing that she was supposed to save herself for marriage, and then he just did this marriage ceremony, and then raped her. That has to be a whole other form of psychological torture. That was for sure. Of last week, I watched Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey,

which is the fundamental list. The FLDS? Yes. I have this on my list to watch this weekend. Everybody wants you guys to cover it. They also basically performed these illegal marriage ceremonies and then would tell the women that they needed to consummate the marriage by having sex.

And the one girl was like, I'm not ready. Like, I don't want to do this. And she didn't know how babies were born. Like, she didn't know what sex was. And so it was very, it reminded me very much of what Elizabeth described in her experience. That's just so crazy. Back to what Kristen was saying,

she says that she just remembers, and it cannot be erased from her mind, this bone-chilling smile that Emanuel always had. And when he had said that he wasn't going to rape or murder her yet, she recalls that she gave him this out and saying, like, her family would do whatever. She was basically making these promises that she was just leaning on the fact that,

as long as her parents knew that she was safe or whatever, they would follow through with whatever. And that they would pay him whatever he wanted. And that if he got caught, he'd go to prison. And at that point, he told her he knew exactly what he was doing and what consequences were associated with it. And that he was very confident that he was not going to get caught.

And he always made sure, when they were walking, that he was below Elizabeth so that she could not run back down the mountain. I did see that, too. And that he always kept a knife at her back. And she said that, at one point, she just had prayed and prayed to herself, and that she had gotten to a point where she just wanted peace for her family,

and she just wanted them to find her, and she didn't care if it was dead or alive. Which I feel like is understandable, given everything she was going through. I read that she went between being starved and not being fed anything, to having to eat trash, and being forced to drink alcohol, forced to take drugs, to incapacitate her

to a certain degree, which is probably, I'm sure, just another form of control. And to make it easier to do whatever they wanted her to do. The whole situation was just really, really sad. Well, it said that she was raped, chained up, starved, denied water, denied food, and the words that she would use to describe her kidnapping were three words, terror, boredom, and rape.

I don't know how you even survive something like that. Like, at some point, you would think that, I don't know. I feel like I wouldn't blame her if she just, like, begged for death or even tried to kill herself. I was just thinking the same thing, which I didn't, maybe I didn't dig deep enough. I don't know if she ever tried or thought about taking her own life, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Well, and what do you guys think about the period concern? Because I couldn't understand, like, the mindset of that. So at one point, right before he raped her, what you were saying, Kale, he came into the tent, kneeled down next to her and told her that she was now sealed to him and a wife in front of God. And that God and the angels were his witnesses, and that that could never be undone.

At that point, that's when he said that it was time to consummate the marriage. And she told him that she hadn't even started her period yet. So at that point, he yells out to his wife, is it OK that she hasn't started her period yet? And Wanda responds and says, that's fine. He pulled up her robe and then raped her. So I'm just wondering, like, one was Elizabeth

under the impression that, like, you couldn't have sex before you started your period. Like, I don't know why that would have been something that she would have said or thought of, or maybe if that would have, like, deterred him from doing it, because she was still a child. I don't know. My thoughts on that were how she initially thought that.

Her initial thoughts were, like, maybe they couldn't have kids. Was that, like, maybe he wouldn't do it to her if he knew that she couldn't have kids yet? Got it. Like, that was the intention. OK, that was the intention behind why he would rape her. Right. Like, she may have still been under that impression

of that's what the situation was. Not that he was, like, a predator. And you know what broke my heart is that she talked a lot about how she was raised and how she remembered just, like, praying and was recalling all of these Bible stories that she had learned growing up and just praying and thinking, if God can do all of these miracles for all these other people, please do a miracle for me and let me escape.

And that was heartbreaking to me, because to know that you have to be in that situation where everything is completely out of your control and the only thing that you can do is sit and pray to be able to escape, that's horrible. Right. No, I agree. And in that interview that she did with CBS,

she also said that in the first few hours after she got kidnapped, that that's when she decided she was going to do whatever it took. It didn't matter what it was. I would just do whatever it took to survive. And, like, at 14, I don't know if I could have made that choice. At 14, I don't know. Like, when I think.

You know, it was stupid. Right, like, I don't. Just to even have the composure to look someone in the face that's kidnapping you and say, like, if you're going to do this to me, do it here, that's such a logical thought process that I don't even know how she was able to come to that while something so horrible was happening. Like, I don't think that I could have done that at 14.

So I want to backtrack a little bit and talk a little bit about the crime scene. Did you guys have anything else to say about her actual kidnapping? Not that I can think of. If you do, we can go back to it. I just wanted to touch on the crime scene a little bit, because this is where it really gave me John Benet Ramsey

vibes. Don Bell, the detective that was in charge, says that he had never seen a crime scene that was so totally contaminated. And I remember those same things being said about John Benet Ramsey. And the house should have been sealed. And to this day, he says he does not understand why it wasn't.

That the officers at the time that they got this call, it was the graveyard shift. And those officers are usually the youngest officers in the department. And it definitely had to do with an inexperience factor. It doesn't excuse the fact that the job was done incorrectly, but it was done incorrectly. Nothing was taped off.

There was no log of who was coming in and out. And in all child abductions, the people who are the most prominent in the child's life have to be cleared. And that everything was just kind of missed. And there is one statistic that was said, it says in most child abductions that within the first 24 hours, if you have not found them,

they're most likely dead. And that is absolutely terrifying. That puts so much pressure. I can't imagine being a parent and knowing that, I don't know if the officers told them that. I don't know. But I know that this was in the documentary, and I'm just thinking to myself, wow,

like the fact that she was even alive after all this time is mind blowing to me. Oh, same. Definitely. I agree there. I was, I didn't see this stuff because I did a lot of research on articles. And it's actually shocking that, like I'm talking 10 plus

articles. And nothing was there about how contaminated the crime scene was. So when Kale texted me that, I'm like, I don't know. Because I did not see that. So when she was telling me, I was like, that's very weird. But what I did see was that search dogs had been called. And they were able to track Elizabeth's scent.

But it only lasted a few feet away from their home. And I was just very, because I know that they looked on foot. It makes me wonder if she was carried, though. Like I wonder if they left. Exactly. Yeah. Because I'm like, how did you lose the scent if they right?

Because they left on foot, I think probably just based off of that information, they probably left on foot to a certain point. And then she was carried. Because you've got to remember, he did multiple routes to know how he was going to get her and how they were going to escape. If he put this much thought process into it,

he likely knew how they could track her down and probably knew that he needed to carry her so that her scent was gone. Right. This is true. I was thrown by it, though, because I'm like, those dogs are pretty damn good. So something had happened.

I even was like, well, maybe they got into some sort of vehicle. And that's why the scent was lost. But she has said so many times that they were on foot. I don't know, that threw me off for sure. Can I also say that I googled Elizabeth Smart's home, like where this took place? Of course you did, because why do you do this stuff?

The house is huge. It's huge. And nobody heard anything. But I will say that if my house is not nearly this big, and I know for a fact, if someone went in and got my kids, I wouldn't hear it. Wait, what? You wouldn't?

No. That's literally terrifying. Terrifying. I mean, my mom has sworn that she has been yelling in the downstairs laundry room at whatever, and we don't hear it upstairs. And mine's really not that big either. OK, well, I don't want to get off

on a long tangent about this. But I will say, since I had Jackson over nine years ago, I sleep so lightly in my house that I feel like I could hear anything. And I was never like that before. I'm a deep sleeper. But when he's home, if a pin hit the floor, I can hear it. Interesting.

Yeah, so I don't know if that's a defense mechanism or what exactly is going on. But I did want to also say, anybody else have anything on the crime scene? Because there wasn't really much more information than that than what I found. No, I just remember seeing that there was really nothing else left at the crime scene, no DNA, no fingerprints.

Nothing. All that they were left with was Mary Katherine's description, which wasn't that helpful because they couldn't really match it to anybody. The only other thing that I saw was that they did go through the family computer to see if maybe she had made contact with somebody online. That wasn't the case.

That's when they found out that there was a lot of work being done, and they started compiling the list of everyone that worked at the house. Well, and then also, they eventually were taken to the police department, and they were taken in different cars. The boys went together, the parents were separated, and Mary Katherine went in a car by herself.

They were in rooms by themselves, questioned by themselves. And I'm just thinking, I feel horrible for Mary Katherine, because I'm like, she was there from the beginning. She saw vaguely what happened, heard things, and now she is at the police department trying to recall all of this stuff in a very scary environment. I just couldn't imagine being nine years old and doing

all of that. No, and especially being the fact that she had been up since roughly 2 AM. Correct. Yes. I did want to talk about Ed's brother. His name was Tom, and he worked for the Desert News and was very familiar with the media.

And there was a lot of talk about this in this documentary. And the parents were just talking about how they felt so blessed to have him because he was able to truly navigate the way for them and spent a lot of time trying to get the word out with his connections to newspapers and news stations. And he was so adamant about having her photo out there and to be able to get it on the internet.

But they would not allow them to release anything for three hours and then gave a statistic that three hours passes by, 65% of people are killed in a situation like that. So that, to me, is very scary. That's high numbers. Three hours, 65% of people are killed. Like, let that sink in.

Yeah, that's a lot. I did see a little bit of stuff about his connections and read that the media was in a frenzy by later that first morning, which sometimes I think is a good thing, drawing attention. And then sometimes I think that just adds to the complete chaos the family's probably going through. So that is a little crazy.

So they made the list of contractors, repairmen, et cetera, and started interviewing everybody to kind of try and narrow down the suspect pool. A massive regional search effort was organized by the Lara Recovery Center with up to 2,000 volunteers every single day, as well as dogs and planes were brought in. So I read that, but I had already read stuff coming from Elizabeth about how, with that first day,

I believe it was that first day, it might have been the second day, she heard helicopters because she was being kept not far from her home. She had heard a helicopter, and it came, and they pushed her inside the tent so that she couldn't be seen. And then she just said, was questioning herself. It's like, why didn't I yell out and things like that?

And I'm like, I wonder if that was part of. I didn't know if it was a random plane at the time that I was reading her info, or if it was from this rescue search effort after I saw that they had put together the rescue mission. So that must be terrifying to suddenly have hope that you're going to be found. And then just hear it go away.

It's like false hope. Oh my gosh, somebody is going to find me and help me, and now I have nothing. Right. And she was kept on the 18, found 18 miles from her home. Yeah. Isn't that so crazy? Like that's such a short distance, 18 miles away,

that's like about how far suburban dad lives from me, probably. Yeah, that's, yeah, my kids probably, my kid's school is like 18 miles from my house. So did you guys hear that, or read anything about them relocating to San Diego? Yes. Yes, I did read that.

I actually also read, so I know that the family had been questioned that day. I also read that a week after the kidnappings, Ed and his brothers were taken to the FBI headquarters for questioning, and they had to do polygraphs. Some were between seven and eight hours long. And the police initially kind of developed a theory thinking that there was financial problems going on,

and they did this, hopefully being able to get some sort of ransom. And I thought that was weird, because I was like, well, how do you just develop a theory out of thin air? I mean, go back to John Benet, wasn't it kind of similar? But they had things to match that to, and a ransom letter. There was no ransom letter here. There was nothing to match it to,

so I kind of was like, maybe they were just grasping at straws at that point. I really wasn't sure. And then I also read that behavioral analysts gave an assessment of what the behavior of the adductor might be, and they concluded that this was a sex crime and that the perpetrator could have burglary in his history. So they compared that information given to the police

by, with the contractor list. And on top of that list was a guy named Richard. I don't know if it's Ricci or Ricci. And he was out on parole on, for attempted homicide on a police officer, he had been in jail for it, was out on parole while escaping from a burglary. They went to his trailer, investigated it, and found items that he had stolen from the smart home,

and also like a neighbor. So they had a theory going that Elizabeth must have woken up and recognized him while he was burglarizing their house. But Mary Catherine was adamant that it was not him. But then the police... They arrested him. Yes, they did arrest him for it. Yeah, I was gonna say, he was arrested.

Yeah. No, they arrested him for probation or parole violation. But they wanted to use that as a way to get information about Elizabeth Smart, but he was adamant that he had nothing to do with it. And his wife or his girlfriend at the time corroborated his story, you know, that he was home or whatever, and it turned out to not have been him.

And Mary Catherine said that it was not him, but the police turned around and said that the room was too dark for her to be able to see and to be sure of who the abductor was. So I thought that that was odd, because I'm like, why? Like, and I get it sometimes, like that may have very well been the case,

but why are you disputing what your only witness to the crime is saying? Like so adamantly. I'm just thinking because they're a child, like I'm thinking of Lincoln in that situation, just because he is about to be nine, I don't know. I'm in full agreement with Kale on this. Like, yeah.

I could see why they would maybe not necessarily believe it. Yeah, right. And then I read that two months after Elizabeth's disappearance, Richard died from a burst aneurysm. So kind of just like, that was the last lead that they had. They did have another guy named Brett Michael Edmonds, which was peaking their interest. He was a 26 year old drifter,

but he was discovered in a West Virginia hospital after ODing. So I think that kind of, that lead died out also. And then they had nothing up until, did you guys hear about how he tried to abduct her cousin? No, what? No. Yeah. So July 24th, 2002, I keep forgetting his name,

like he wanted to call him one of the other guys. Emmanuel? Yeah, Emmanuel Mitchell. Whatever we want to call him. Brian Mitchell, Emmanuel. He, so Elizabeth had said that she had been like, just like trying to like talk about her life while she was being held captive.

And her cousin and her were very close. And she started talking about her cousin and he decided he was going to go and kidnap her. So he evidently tried to abduct her cousin. The daughter was awoken by somebody cutting through the bedroom window. And it was Elizabeth's mom's sister, her daughter. So they obviously called the police.

They realized that it was so, so similar to, the cutting was completely similar to what happened at Elizabeth's house in her window. So they automatically assumed that it was, there had to be a connection. Now it's two people from the same family attempting to be kidnapped. So I thought that was insane.

I'm like, this guy's ballsy. Like he did not give one fuck. He really thought he was invincible. So insane. So that was in July of 2022, right? 2002, July 24th, 2002. We're in 2022, sorry, you guys. Okay, so in September 2002, Mitchell, Emmanuel and Barzy

leave Salt Lake City with Elizabeth and they relocate to San Diego County, California. And they relocated several times to different encampments in San Diego, which were like dry creek beds in a lakeside. And they would move in the middle of the night. And on February 12th of 2003, Mitchell was arrested. And how do you say that?

El Cajon for breaking into a church and spent several days in jail over the incident. Then October rolls around and Mary Catherine realized that the abductor's voice was that of an unemployed man that the family knew, which was Emmanuel. And they had hired him for the day to work on the roof and to rake leaves.

The police were basically just like skeptical of the short time that Emmanuel had worked for them. So Mary Catherine just knew the abductor's voice and the family had a sketch artist. So they draw Emmanuel's face from the descriptions. And then in February, this drawing was released to the media. It was shown on Larry King Live in America's Most Wanted.

And the drawing was actually recognized by a family member of Emmanuel's. His sister. Backing it up to when Mary Catherine suddenly remembered. I don't know if you guys read this, but there was an article that came out that the investigators actually had his name on their suspect list early on.

But there was a typo in the police computer system. So his criminal record that he had a significant one never pulled up because they were spelling it. I couldn't figure out which way it was. I think that they were spelling it with an E, but it was actually under an I. So when they typed it in. Isn't that so funny?

Because when I did my notes, I spelled it with an E and it's with an I. Yes. So they had a typo the whole time. And somebody that was working the case actually did an interview talking about how, you know, the cops kind of just bungled the whole thing at that point because they could have found him.

And at the time that Mary Catherine remembered this, he had had several run-ins with the law and they could have found him. But because they were spelling it wrong, there was no record. Therefore they thought there's no way. And the smart family actually got really pissed off because they were so skeptical of what Mary Catherine

was saying that they publicly accused the police of not following up on that lead. And that's what made them hire their own sketch artist. Yeah. So then at that point when this family member recognizes him, she gives photographs to the police. And then on March 12th, 2003, Emanuel was spotted with Barzy and that was in Sandy, Utah.

And it said that she was spotted with Wanda and with Elizabeth and that they were disguised and like wigs, sunglasses and like a veil or something. Yes. So I had actually two people identified him from the sketch. So one of the viewers was Derek Thompson, which was the son of Wanda, which was obviously Emanuel's wife, his ex-wife.

So then Emanuel's ex-wife recognized him from the release of the sketches. And she ended up calling the police. She identified him as Brian David Mitchell. She told police he was sexually abusive and believed that he was keeping Elizabeth alive if he did have her. Walsh was sent in photos.

So John Walsh from America's Most Wanted, he was sent in photos by Barzy's son. And a viewer in California called in saying that she had seen a man that looked similar accompanied by two women wearing bales and robes. So two different sides kind of turned them in in a way. And then there was a bunch of sightings in California and Vegas, but they were gone before the police arrived

up until they were spotted in Sandy, Utah, March 12th of 2003. Yeah. So then Elizabeth was recognized by the officers during the questioning and they rescued her and then arrested them. So they asked her if she was Elizabeth Smart and she denied it at first. Yes.

She refused to take off her veil. And this is the second encounter with police. The first one was at a public library where someone called in to say that they're pretty sure that Elizabeth Smart is here or whatever. She refused to take off her veil. And he claimed it was for religious purposes. So the police officer ended up leaving.

But then when they finally arrested, the day that they arrested Mitchell and Barzy, Elizabeth again denied that she was Elizabeth Smart until she was separated from them. And the police told her that she was wanted back home and her parents love her. They never stopped looking for her. And then she finally broke down. But I did see pictures online of the wig and the sunglasses.

And why did they have her in an old woman's gray hair, curly wig? Maybe because they were trying to go so opposite of a young girl or something in case they got spotted there as if that's not going to be a red flag. Well, Barzy was deemed unfit to stand trial twice, which I thought was insane because I mean, she was competent enough to participate in an entire kidnapping for almost a year. And she had children of her own.

So I didn't see anything about that, too. I didn't see anything about her going through competency evaluation. I did see that he was required to because something about him being like a religious prophet or something. He tried to plea, do the insanity plea, and the jury wasn't buying it. Yeah, so I had March 18th, 2003. They were charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated burglary, and aggravated sexual assault.

They were ruled incompetent to stand trial several times. November 17th of 2009, Barzy was finally able to be sentenced to 15 years in prison, which I'm like, how the hell do you only get 15 years for what you did? Yeah. But she also ended up testifying against Mitchell. So I'm wondering if there was some sort of like, Pleadiel or something like immunity or something.

It wasn't immunity, but it was a Pleadiel to testify against. Right. So it ended up taking Mitchell until March of 2010 to be ruled competent to stand trial. And he was convicted and sentenced to life in federal prison May of 2011. And then I did some like a little bit of digging on his background. And I found out he had been the black sheep of his family by the age of 13. He was into drugs and alcohol.

He was caught praying on very young girls in his first year of high school when he was 16. He was sent to juvenile detention for exposing himself to a young female neighbor. And when him and Wanda got married, she had a daughter and they actually or he or they not really sure killed Wanda's daughter's rabbit and said it to her. Wow. See, there's a lot of psychological stuff that's like going on here because that's all just insane.

But when I read the, I mean, all of it's disgusting, but when I read the rabbit thing, my instant thought was like, he's like Elizabeth is very, I don't want to say lucky because I don't know what would have been better in those circumstances. But he was very capable of killing someone. Oh, for sure. I mean, for sure. But his motive wasn't that with her. And what's so insane is that it took this trial almost eight years to go to court.

Yep. And she testified, Elizabeth testified at her own, at that trial. Her mom testified. I think her dad testified. That would be so stressful to do that, but probably so empowering at the same time to know that you have to sit and face the person that did all of this to you and like ultimately ruined your life and changed your life for forever and took things from you that you could never get back to have to face that.

But at the same time, how empowering would that be to face that knowing that you survived it? Yeah. And I read that she's now 34. She's a child safety advocate. She's married with three young children and she's focused on educating the public about sexual assault and exploitation. So she kind of took it and like turned it into advocacy work to help other people, which good for her for having the strength to do that because that could have destroyed a lot

of people and like they would have never recovered. For sure. Any final notes, guys? I think that Elizabeth's smart strength is incredible. I think she, I mean, obviously don't know what, you know, her mental health is like right now, but her being an advocate for, you know, child abductions and sexual assault is incredible. She really used her trauma and wants to help and prevent this further. And I think I don't think that I would have the strength to go on like her.

So I just want to make sure that, you know, people really acknowledge that for her. I want to second that. Yeah. I know that she wrote a book so I can definitely link that on our story about her account. I believe that her uncle and her dad also wrote books about it. They did. Yeah, they did. So I can like link all those things and then she has like a foundation and stuff.

So I'll make sure we tag her. And I mean, her story is, I don't know if inspiring is the right word, but her power of overcoming it is inspiring. Agreed. Agreed. So if you guys have not followed us on at coffee combos podcast on Instagram, make sure you follow us over there. And if you have not subscribed to our show, you can do that by searching the purple podcast

app, type in coffee combos, click subscribe, click the fit star and leave us a written review. You can also find us on pretty much any other podcast apps, Spotify, podcast one. We love you guys and we'll chat soon. See you guys. I picked off all my eyelashes. I watched you do it. Agreed.