Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - True Crime Talk: Lizzie Borden

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

On this month's true crime bonus episode, Lizzie Borden! In 1892, Lizzie Borden was aquitted from the murder of her father and stepmother, which inspired a folkrhyme, plays and a tv series throughout the years. Thank you to our sponsors! Ring: Visit Ring.com/CONVOS to learn more about Ring Alarm Pro

I hate gift-giving and receiving receiving gifts is so weird. What do you say? Thank you This is coffee convos with kale Lowry and Lindsay Chrisley. I really want you to be in your feels kale That does not interest me whatsoever I feel very attacked by you a spirited discussion about motherhood friendship family and life in the public eye I'm just not with the fakery anymore. There's a fakery bakery around here. Here's kale and Lindsay It's true crime Monday Kale Your voice sounded so tragic just now. I would rather be sleeping right now. I'm so tired today

Oh, it hurt my feelings when you just did that It was I was trying to set the tone for true crime, but it ended up being a joke Can you like try to do it like a little bit better like just do like one more try? It's true crime Monday God that fucked That was a way off it that was like a way off key Don't come to my throat. I I literally just woke up. I took a little nap. Don't tell anyone that I've been If I don't have like an appointment first thing in the morning

I quickly take like an hour nap Like if I don't have like anything going on in the morning, I'll nap before we podcast or before therapy I used to do that all the time like Take Jackson to preschool. Yeah, and come back home and nap and my parents used to be like, okay You need to get a fucking wife like what is going on like why are you so many naps? I definitely need a life, but I Have a couch in my office, and I'm just like I don't know what I think I'm still recovering from traveling across time zones and also depression

Still struggling with depression, but Anyhow, I want to give an update for today's true crime episode on this article that I found I'm taking it with a grain of salt because it is the Sun and I We don't trust anything they say but this says that it's an exclusive and Chris Watts tried to blame Mistress for smothering his daughters four and three and digging his wife's grave And this is an inmate that is claiming all of this

He says that Watts actually told him that The the mistress was the one who killed the kids and also dug the grave so the thing that is contradicting for me on this is that He admitted to tucking them in the night before knowing it was the last time he was gonna see them So I just don't know if I believe I think that could still be true though I think that it could have been a premeditated thing that like she was gonna be responsible for killing them And I don't think it's like a very far-fetched. I feel like in the way That everything happened in the timeline that maybe he did have some help. I always thought that

um However Maybe he's just telling an inmate that so he doesn't get killed Okay, like people in prison don't like People who hurt children and women. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's also possible I'm just playing devil's advocate not that I should for anyone like Chris Watts but could this inmate be

making it up for publicity himself But like for what reason would he need publicity while he's housed in prison? Maybe just a little excitement. I don't know because I've never been to prison. He says thank God Is Carter he says that Watts unbelievably said quote Nicole had smothered the girls with their blankets and they suffocated and quote I mean a Big part of me believes that this could potentially be true, but wasn't it said it's been so long since we've covered this but

Wasn't it said that he thought they were dead, but then they weren't Quote Chris said it made him feel sad that the girls were killed but that one of them woke up and saw Shanann was dead and would be a witness and quote Yeah, so then that makes me believe that he is just a fucking liar all around. Yeah, he's just a straight-up liar I mean, let's be honest. Do we trust anything that no person who? Killed their wife and their children say absolutely not I did not know that Nicole actually took on a new identity. So it says yeah in this article It says she took on a new identity and moved away from her home in Colorado after Watts was arrested. Oh

Really? Mm-hmm, so I didn't know that so was she in like witness protection I don't I don't know She told police during their investigation that Watts had lied that he was separated from his wife and plan to divorce her And she believed him according to her web browsing history reportedly released in Docs By Weld County District Attorney's Office shortly after they began their affair in July of 2018 She searched the phrase man. I'm having an affair with says he will leave his wife I don't know. I don't know if she was in which witness protection. I don't feel like she should I still feel like she was Way more involved in all of this than people are

Allowing to tell the truth about like agreed 100% agreed Whole things alarming to me. Yeah, wait while we're on the topic of like Cops murders like all these things. I found this tiktok this morning that I want to play for you guys and For any of you who listened to our regular episodes, which is probably all of you to be honest Remember when I was like will called the cops on me and like I was waiting for them at my house Yeah, do we remember this? Okay? I Saw this tiktok this morning and I was dying

Oh You need to call the police back and tell them that you planned That literally was like the the shit with like cutting luxe's hair years ago. I swear to God like When Chris called like make it up like that's probably what it was like. Well, she yeah She was playing but she you know, whatever like he probably sounded just like that Calm tell me you were playing though I'm gonna come after your family. I'm gonna do all that. No, like you literally are not like I'm calling the law Calling the law

Okay, so while I was away in LA I saw this tiktok which Kristen said that you guys also talked about of This fertility doctor who fathered like hundreds of children Yes, yes, there is it on lifetime or any or what channel is this on because I have to watch this No, I think it's gonna be on one of the streams and I believe that the air date is May 11th. I believe I need to watch this because and I'll post a video the tiktok that I found I'm just so it's insane because there is an interview with a mom who has to tell her husband that his His daughter is not really his which is so fucked up because these are

These are not women who cheated on their partners These are women who had trouble having children and then instead of using their husband or their partner's sperm he used his own sperm and I wonder how many incestuous like Families came from this because they had no idea they were related. It's so Sickening and I mean, can you just imagine like having to be the person to deliver that news? Absolutely not. Oh my god I would literally pass away. Absolutely. So, okay. Oh All right, so Kristen just corrected us and this is coming out on Netflix on May 10th

And so we'll cover it for the May 19th episode of coffee combos. I will set Some time in my schedule to watch this because y'all know how it goes like between the naps I don't know how you'll ever find time. Yeah, I don't know either obviously like while I'm hiding in my office on the couch, but Yeah, so it's it's just crazy to think about too because whenever I was going through initially going through the egg freezing process I forgot that you did that. Yeah. Well, I mean I didn't ever complete it because it was just so much like it was so so so much Seriously so many kudos and shout out to women who have to do that and and don't are not able to conceive on their own because it is so hard and just exhausting and you're hormonal and all of that and I just I mean kudos I

Can't imagine like if I had a partner who you know I was wanting to do embryos with and the doctor ended up putting his own spark like that would be devastating That would be so devastating. It's like well, and I guess the weird thing to me is is like how it went on for so long I covered I think it was a lifetime. I forget what channel it was on Show on the southern T about this similar situation and it was just like a couple episodes long and It's amazing to me that it can go on for such a long period of time and No one know like when you hear scandals like this. It's like, okay, I can understand it happening like once or twice and

No one finding out. Mm-hmm, but that many people involved how? No, I literally, you know, yeah, no a hundred percent. I don't know how That goes on. I don't understand and like genetically Just when you look at your kids. I mean, I do know that some people have kids that look like nothing like them and That's not abnormal, but I'm just like There has to be someone that thought of this before this documentary or show whatever came out That was like, okay, something's a little suspect. Yeah, a hundred percent suspect You know, especially if you're having a child with a man who

Has like certain defining features or something and it's like your kid doesn't have any of it Well, right. I mean and we're all of these the all these families had to have been white, right because Surely, I think so. Well, that's I wasn't actually gonna bring up that point. I was like, okay. Well what about the families that are interracial like I guess he wasn't targeting them because it would be so obvious Right, like he wouldn't be able to pull that off. What a shit show. Yeah, I can't wait to watch So everyone knows about the ring video doorbell But I don't know if you guys know but ring makes an award-winning alarm ring alarm is an award-winning security system

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That is consistently strong signal across my entire home. It's true ring has an award-winning alarm and to protect my home I've gone pro with ring alarm pro and you guys can learn more just go to ring.com forward slash combos That's ring.com forward slash combos Okay, that is our little update on all of the true crime things today's case is Lizzie Borden and I Picked this one because I actually didn't know yet. Why yeah, I I didn't know anything about it

I've only heard the nursery rhyme Wait, what is it? It's like Liz something about like oh, it was like I watched the movie and it was And there and the kids were jumping rope to it. Yes. Yeah, that's the only thing I knew about it I didn't know the ins and outs of this case and I know it's so old. It's literally forever old But I was I'm fascinated by it and I'll tell you why once we get to the end but I did So I watched a special on the ID channel

The streaming app for this I also read an interview with Cara Robertson who wrote a book on this case and I Tried not to look at Wikipedia I wanted like an actual full Like image of the situation in my own head instead of like reading things that could may or may not be true And you know Wikipedia is not super Credible wait before we get into this I just want to let everybody know the lyrics to the nursery rhyme Why this is a nursery rhyme is alarming

Lizzie Borden took an axe is a well-known children's rhyme that alludes to the accusations against Lizzie Borden in regards to the murder of her father and stepmother the four lines of the poem that Describe Lizzie killing her mother and father father with 40 and 41 wax with an axe These are The lyrics and I wish Kale had them so that she could sing them for you Sing them for us because Hold on. It's loading. Okay

Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 wax when she saw what she had done She gave her father 41. Yeah, and kids do like jump rope and things with this nursery rhyme Alarming a very alarming So I really thought the Lizzie Borden thing was like a myth and it never really actually happened. However Lizzie Borden is born in Fall River, Massachusetts to Andrew Borden and Sarah Borden She has an older sister who's ten years older than her named Emma and Unfortunately her biological mom died when Lizzie was two And on her mom's deathbed Emma actually promised her mom that she would take care of the baby being Lizzie

And she really took that role very very seriously, so It maybe wasn't such a surprise to Andrew when he remarried Abby Borden That the girls really didn't Like her they didn't you know take well to her at all They were almost like borderline really mean to their stepmom But it said that Abby Borden really did try to get the girls to like her and she wasn't like this You know mean stepmom. She really did want them to like her

So The Borden family is pretty well known in Fall River, Massachusetts. However most of Andrew's cousins are super wealthy and so they live up on the hill and That's like where people aspire to live. This is the wealthy area Andrew Borden didn't really get the wealth that his cousins and you know other family members did right away He had to work really really hard to earn his wealth, which he eventually did It said that Lizzie was really close to her dad and

You know that was something that the sisters really both were close to their dad Andrew Purchases a house for his wife's half-sister and This really drives a wedge between Emma and Lizzie and their dad. So they're really pissed off. They feel like You know, why are you why are she's not related to us? Like why are you buying her? property, you know, so he ends up selling his own dad's home to the girls for a dollar, which is crazy and Under the condition that they have to be nicer to Abby

But Lizzie doesn't listen and she's just super super mean to Abby Still Emma just wondering a little bit. I think that if you do that and sell it for a dollar There's some type of like capital gains real estate law. Yeah, that you avoid like capital gains or the transfer or something like that I don't think they allow people to do it anymore Yeah, it's crazy, but I just wanted to say talking about Their wealth I had read that he had kind of struggled financially when he was younger even though he had

come from a wealthy family and That he had made all of his money in the manufacture and sale of furniture and caskets Yes, that is true His his wealth really did come later on. I don't I didn't really get to the bottom of why his cousins and stuff were super wealthy I know they did they profited a lot from the cotton industry But I don't know why Andrew specifically didn't you know, wasn't really like born into that wealth because they were all related It was his cousins his uncles and things like that, but He's more like self-made wealth. Yes

And he also was like a successful property developer He directed several textile mills Own some commercial property He was like a president of Union Savings Bank He was also known to be like very What is the word I'm looking for? What is it frugal frugal? Yeah, like he could afford indoor plumbing But he didn't have indoor plumbing

So he was saving money in places that I guess he felt like We're not necessary well and something that was like so interesting to me just the cost of living, you know like so long ago that That his estate was valued at the time of his death at 300,000 but today it would be equivalent to like nine million dollars. Yeah, the thing that I watched last night said ten million, but That's insane

Like that is so insane just to give some people some perspective on like the type of money that we're talking about At that time It was big money Okay, so Like I said, the daughters are ten years apart. They're adult unmarried Completely dependent on their father, but Lizzie always wanted more. She wanted a better house a better Lifestyle a better better friend group. She wanted all she always was looking for what was bigger and better So the girls would go visit their cousins and stuff

On the hill and these were wealthy cousins, but they were only for like board games, which I thought was so interesting Like imagine being invited over just for just for board games like nothing else Yeah, not going but she was never invited to the ballroom dances where she felt in her mind that she would meet Like the love of her life and so she held on to a lot of resentment for you know being unmarried allegedly So everyone in the board and house starts getting really sick just like throwing up And this was before refrigerators. So or I mean, I think it was before refrigerators but it also could have just been another one of Andrew's frugal ways and

It you know food poisoning was common during this time. So they didn't really think anything of it. However Abby gets seen by a doctor and she thinks that maybe They're being poisoned. So It said that Andrew, you know was in a like an argument with one of his tenants, you know prior to them all getting sick But Lizzie also tells her friend Sarah that she thinks someone is trying to hurt her family. I wrote down my opinion here. I Think she's setting up an alibi and a motive for Somebody else, you know what I mean? I don't think that she Actually thought that but that's just I don't think she actually thought that either and in fact I think that

She was not an ignorant Person by any means and I think that she definitely knew how to manipulate and She had a plan and it was to get rid of them. So Lizzie sees her uncle from the hill arrive pretty much unannounced and talking to her dad In the documentary I watched they said that it was potentially about a living will and really the girls would be the only one like They are completely dependent on their father. So they would truly be the only ones outside of Abby affected by this

And so they're just not really sure why the uncle's there. He doesn't have a bag. He didn't get invited. He just showed up. So She's very skeptical of this supposedly August 4th 1892 Supposedly the day starts off really normal and even though Andrew still feels a little sick and you know like throwing up he he decides that he still has to go to work and that he would be back around 12 for lunch. So Abby and the maid which they kept calling her is Maggie the nickname for Bridget. I don't know because I was getting conflicted. Bridget. Yeah I was so confused. There were different things saying Bridget and different ones saying Maggie. So I was just really confused on which was which. So I'm just going to call her the maid then because I don't know which is her actual name. So Abby and the maid don't really feel well. And they're home. They're in the house. They're in the board at home. And Andrew is not feeling well. So he ends up coming home at 10 30 a.m. This is not normal. I just read this kill just to clarify. The Borden's made Bridget Maggie Sullivan. Oh so that makes sense. Okay got it. So that makes sense.

So Andrew is not feeling well. He comes home at 10 30 a.m. and he's just he lays down actually Lizzie helps her dad lay down and at this time the maid is also not feeling well. So I'm just going to call her the maid. She's actually Lizzie helps her dad lay down and at this time the maid is also laying down. I guess she's having a break and when he when Andrew comes home she the maid can't get the door open like I guess it's locked for whatever reason. And while she's trying to open the door. Allegedly she hears Lizzie laughing upstairs like she's absolutely certain that she hears Lizzie laughing upstairs. So Lizzie helps her dad lay down and Andrew asks about Abby and Lizzie says that she got a note to go help someone who's sick. So she's not home. Which again is kind of like her laying down the alibi type of situation with her friend Sarah. Which I'm thinking okay you were upstairs and you just killed your stepmom but I don't know because there's no blood anywhere. So how would you have killed her and then come downstairs that quickly and there's no blood anywhere. You know what I mean?

No I mean I do know what you mean but like I'm so solid on that. So this house that was on the documentary I guess is like just like very infamous and I didn't even think about that. I want to go see it. You're like in fact I'm going to go drive by. Yeah exactly. Let me just take a ride up to Massachusetts real quick. So shortly thereafter Lizzie discovers her father murdered. His eye is literally hanging out of his face split in half and his nose is almost cut off.

So she calls the maid into the room shows her and the police arrive within minutes. I'm just curious also to know how that happened. Did they have phones at this time? How do you call the police in 1892? Not sure. Immediately upon arrival. Send a pigeon? Like I don't know.

Right like with a scroll note. Immediately upon arrival the doctor starts giving Lizzie morphine like a sedative and I didn't understand that. She remains cool, calm and collected during this entire time and she tells the maid to go look for Abby. And when she does, Abby's body is found on the floor of the guest room. She was cleaning up after the uncle who had come and stayed in the guest room. So the evidence suggests that Abby was killed first based on like the body temperature and levidity of everything. And one of the historians that was commenting on this documentary said that blows to the face like this typically suggests like anger resentment. Like you knew the person and you had extreme feelings towards this person, which I thought was an interesting fact.

Well, not fact, but you guys get what I'm saying. Well, I think that they were angry with her from the time that she came into the picture like they never accepted that. And I think it was a bunch of built up anger. And what I read was there had been tension growing in the family for months before the murders took place. And they also referred the girls referred to their stepmother as Miss Borden. Like they didn't even call her by her name because we've we've talked about on the podcast before, you know, step parents coming in. And I definitely have felt that it's easier for the younger kids to accept a step parent than it is for the older kids. So like, for example, if I was to get married this year, that's a bad example, take that out.

If I was to get married in the future, I would say that my younger two kids are more likely to take the step parent as a father figure as a parent role than my older two kids. Do you get what I'm saying? So I guess I'm surprised if Lizzie's mom died when she was two. What was it that she because when she's two, why is she not look taking that taking Abby as like a mother figure? Well, I think that it's very interesting that you say that because I don't necessarily agree with that. I think that it really has to do with the child's personality and what they're willing to accept and what they want to reject. And so a lot of it probably has to do with the fact that the other daughter was taking care of Lizzie and then there was someone else that was coming into the picture. And it just naturally maybe the older daughter didn't take to her. So then Lizzie didn't, you know, there's a couple of different things.

And also, I think with your kids, you know, in your situation, it depends on the relationship with the father and how accepting the father is of the situation that you have that will really determine if your kids are going to be welcoming to that or not, you know. So you think that if I was to Chris's other baby mom, for example, if I was talking poorly of her or had negative feelings about her to Lux, Lux might go over there and be different. Yes. Okay. Okay. I mean, I definitely think that makes sense. I think if he, you know, when he does tell me about her, I am very like nice about it. I don't say anything rude. I don't say my opinion, like none of it because I don't, there's no reason to, you know. Yeah. And so I do actually because Lux is almost like, excuse me, I had a coke before this. Lux will like, if I'll be like, Oh, like, what did you do this weekend and he'll like look at me and like, he'll say it with like a question.

Like almost to see like what my reaction or if I'm going to approve and he's gauging your response. Yes. And I'll just be like, Oh, like, that's fun. Like that's exciting. You know, I don't really ever say anything more than that. You know, so I think that you're right. I do think that's going to have that's going to hold a lot of weight, especially at that age because that age is so you're so impressionable. Well, and I'm thinking that in this case that the oldest daughter, if she got any bad vibes, if Lizzie is looking at the oldest daughter is more of a maternal figure to her. She's going to kind of feed off of that energy, if that makes sense. And it was said that Lizzie believed that she had married their dad for his wealth. Okay, I didn't I didn't read that. Okay. And so I think there's like some of that going on and then, you know, it would be it would be hard losing your mother even though in the documentary that I watched,

Lizzie said that she didn't ever remember any memories of her mother but still knowing that you had a mother that passed away and then someone is coming to take her place. That would be hard. That would be a lot to process at that young of an age and I'm not shocked that it created. I don't know if these were like genetic mental problems or if these were fostered mental problems over time. I don't know. So now that you mentioned the mental problems, it's alleged that Lizzie actually killed cats and birds as a small child. I don't know if you knew that. Well, so it also was said that Andrew killed pigeons and his barn with hatchets. And apparently she used to be very upset that he would kill them because and she would like build roost for them.

And they had family arguments over this. So I'm just wondering if like where are these behaviors came from where they something that she saw him doing this and then she did those things like I don't know. Well, for him to do that, I think probably they were a nuisance in his barn. So I'm not going to say that I think that his was like, I mean, the hatchet is weird. Like that's there's got to be other ways to get rid of the pests. But yeah, I mean, did she see them? I don't know. I would imagine if you if a child sees animals being killed over and over again and they don't like it, it's going to do something to your mental health.

Like I am sure of that. So what did you see? She she killed birds? Yeah, in the documentary, it said that she killed cats and birds as a small child. And that's a how she killed them. No, but she loved to she loved to have funerals for them. Which makes it so weird because then you've got that connection with the dad owning this casket business. Yeah.

So it's kind of like I'm freaked out. Yeah. Yeah. So red flag huge red flag. So anyway, the let me go back to where we were. So the blows to the face and then one of the historians said that a killer is not going to wait in the house after murdering a person. So they said that Abby died first upstairs in the guest room. Nobody could have predicted the father coming home at 1030 in the morning.

And then the door not opening right away seems very like coincidental. Some people actually think that the uncle had something to do with this because of his surprise visit and Emma and Lizzie were his blood nieces. So they would benefit from the they would either benefit or lose, you know, out because of his living will. So that was a theory that some of the historians were talking about. Another theory was, could it be the maid? I personally don't think the maid would have. But then this brings up, you know, how any single thing that goes out into the public, the public spins it, twist it, adds their theories, puts their input and it kind of dilutes the actual case. But not the case, but the what actually happened.

Yeah. Yeah. And so they were coming up with theories that maybe Lizzie and the maid were having an affair. But even then it doesn't make sense for why the maid would do it. And Emma, the older sister had like a airtight alibi, she was out of town. And so it really came down to Lizzie and she was the real the only one she won. She remained calm, cool and collected, like I said earlier, and she had opportunity and motive. I agree.

And I back to your point about the historian saying that no one's going to like murder and stay there. If you are just a murderer and whatever type of, you know, mental stuff you have going on. I see so many psychiatric issues from just watching like the depiction of watching what she was allegedly like, that I could totally see her killing both of her parents, cleaning herself up and staying there and acting alarmed. Like that was not far fetched to me. I think the only thing that really is far fetched is, well, here's my thing. In 1892, how the fuck do y'all know that he came home at 1030 in the morning and how the fuck do y'all know that there was 19 minutes between the murders? Like I just don't know how in 1892 they have that type of technology and like understanding of things. Like maybe I'm being really naive, but why do we think that?

I don't know. Like why is that so specific from 1892, but other details are so not. Seems so dated, but like that seems so new age. Right. Like actually a lot of the trial stuff that I'll get into in a minute, it does seem new age. Like I was actually impressed by some of the things that were said because I was like, well, that seems very new age. Like I feel like we're still, maybe I'm still thinking of like the witch trials and how like they just convict everyone. Yeah.

So the news of the murders is out in the community and really it divides the town. Lizzie initially had, it was like split. So there were some, there were people that had her back and really thought that she didn't do it. And then there were other people in the town who thought she did it. She killed both of her parents. So police confirmed that the uncle was in the area with other relatives, which was confirmed. And then like I said, the main doesn't gain anything from the murders. So nobody else in the house could have been a suspect except for Lizzie. So she then gets caught burning a dress and she says that the dress had paint on it.

But even if the dress did have paint on it, why are you burning it? Well, she told the officer when he or the detective or investigator, whatever they called him back then, that it was stew. So she couldn't keep her story straight. Yeah. So like what I watched when he was like looking at her dress and he looked like all over her body, looked at her hands and had her put her hands flat forward and then upside down, like turn them backwards to look for like any cuts, anything. And there was nothing except one spot on her dress and he asked if it was blood and she said it's stew. I wonder if it was because you know how blood will turn brown. Yeah. Like I wonder was it brown at that point.

So when the investigator, I guess, asked when she got called in for questioning, asked for the dress to be brought in at that point, that's when she burned it. And her sister was saying that she saw her like caught her burning it and she was like, what are you doing? And she started screaming at her and told her to go inside. And then when it got to the trial and it got brought up, the sister acted like she knew nothing about it. I think the sister either. Yeah, no, I definitely think the sister knew or had an idea of what Lizzie did because how do you not know? Everything I saw, it made it feel like just the demeanor of the sister. Mind you, like these are actors, right?

But like what they're trying to depict, it made it seem like the sister kind of thought it the whole time, which makes me wonder what type of psychiatric problems did the sister witness and was aware of with Lizzie that would have made her believe that she could have killed her parents, you know? Right. Initially, Lizzie did not have a lawyer, but she does later on get one. It was alleged that Lizzie was trying to buy prusik acid, which is a poison. Supposedly she tried to purchase this a day or two before the murders, but this ended up not being confirmed or corroborated. So it was eventually taken out of evidence for the trial that happens like a year later. Lizzie could just speak on that for a second, though, because the pharmacist said that she had come looking for that.

To me, whether she purchased it or not, it holds some weight considering the fact that she was looking for it, for like what purpose were you looking for that, I guess, would be the question I would have at that point. But they're saying that they couldn't even confirm that she was looking for it or what? No. The pharmacist said at the trial that she asked him for that. So then why couldn't it be used a year later because she was still looking for it? So that's still, I guess, circumstantial evidence. They can't use circumstantial evidence, I guess. I don't know, but that's a red flag to me.

So Lizzie couldn't keep her story straight. She can't remember if she was upstairs or downstairs when her father comes home early. And something about, which I didn't write it down because I saw it this morning, was something about a part of the ax in the basement. Lizzie says that she went into the barn, but then she said she was upstairs, but then she doesn't know where she's at. And the evidence does suggest that Lizzie came up behind Abby and got her with the ax between the shoulder blades first. Thinking of that in my house where I live, if a maid was downstairs or sleeping, the pain that you would feel if you were hitting the back with an ax, I would guess would wake somebody up, no? Yeah. So do you think the maid also knew?

I don't know, though. Because it said that Abby had gone upstairs between 9 a.m. and 10 30 a.m. to allegedly make the bed. Then it said that her dad had gone out on a walk around like 9 a.m. Where was the maid between 9 a.m. and 10 30 a.m. because she lived with them? She was washing windows and then she took a nap. Was it common practice that she was taking naps like while during working hours? She struggled to get the door open for Andrew Borden, which the documentary that I watched was a dramatization of her using a key on the inside of the home to unlock it and let him in. And because the whole family had been sick, whether it's food poisoning or regular poisoning, she was napping because she didn't feel well.

Huh. So there's not a lot of time, though, like to even though it was premeditated, if you just think about it, like from 9 a.m. until 10 30, you had to be pretty swift to do that. Like he leaves at 9. Abby goes upstairs to do these chores at 9. I don't know. That does not seem like a whole lot of time for Lizzie to kill her, clean herself up and be laughing by the time her dad returns from a walk. Right. Right.

And help him lay down and stuff. That's what that's the part that throws me because I do I do think all the other evidence does point to Lizzie. I don't think that anyone else could have done these murders, but I also don't understand how she would have done both of them with him coming home so unexpectedly. She had no time to clean up. I wonder, I hope this doesn't sound insensitive. Like I wonder how long it takes for someone to kill you and strike you that many times and then clean up and then clean up because there's going to be blood spatter everywhere. It's not going to just be on and there was one theory that was like if she has an apron on, the apron would prevent the blood from soaking through her clothes. But I disagree with that because I mean, and Lincoln gets no regular nosebleeds and I've had it go through like a sweatshirt and a t-shirt before just a nosebleed.

You know what I'm saying? So yeah, I don't know that an apron unless they're fucking waterproofed, I don't think that they're it's going to prevent blood spatter. I'm talking you're killing someone with an axe. That shit's going to be in your hair. It's going to be everywhere. It's going to be on places on your body that you didn't even think it could reach. You know what I'm saying? So unless they just didn't see, but if they didn't have indoor plumbing, she would have had to take a shower.

She would have had to go outside to wash up. So now you have me thinking like, was the maid in on this? That's right, because there's no way she could have done this by herself and the maid had no fucking clue. She was standing up when she was first struck. And then it said that she was struck on the side of the head with a hatchet, which caught her just above the ear. And then she fell down on the floor and it created contusions on her nose and her forehead. And then she was struck multiple times again, which was 17 direct hits to the back of her head. You're telling me that blood didn't fucking go everywhere?

Literally everywhere. Like there are times where I'm eating chocolate and somehow it ends up like between my legs. And I don't even know what the fuck happened. You know, so like picture a crazy ass, bloody crimes. You know what I'm saying? Like you, you're going to find blood in places that you didn't expect it to be. There's no fucking way. And so then this is like the other conflicting evidence.

So initially when Andrew comes home and Lizzie helps him lay down and he asks for his wife, she says that Abby got a note to go help somebody that's sick. So during all of this, authorities put out a $5,000 reward for the note. So for anyone who asked for Abby to come care for her for them while they were sick, no note ever came forward, which again goes back to Lizzie kind of laying the groundwork for what she was about to do, like or what she already did. So Lizzie also denied ever being upstairs at first at first. Yeah.

But then at some point she said she's in the barn at some point she said she was downstairs. And that's kind of where the evidence, that's where the testimony is like, so you don't remember where you were. And she was like, I've been asked, you know, so many times the same question. She's like, I don't remember. So she starts to say that she doesn't remember because and they actually don't use any of this evidence or any of these interrogations because she was on morphine. So remember when I said that initially the doctor that came started immediately pumping

morphine. And so I thought it was a new age. I mean, we're talking 1892 and they're deciding, you know, she's under the influence of morphine. She can't, we can't use this testimony. And so at this point, none of this can be used in the new trial, which is about a year after it happened, the attempt to buy the acid was thrown out also because none of this acid was found in their stomachs, which I thought was interesting because in 1892 I'm not thinking they know how to do like official autopsies like we know them today.

And Lizzie refuses to testify. So at this point, she does have a good lawyer and she is acquitted of all charges and they basically break it down to say that it was a poor investigation and there's no real documentation of what happened or Lizzie's initial story. But by the end of all of this, after she's acquitted, she ultimately lives on the hill which is what she's always wanted, but at what cost she lives there, you know, with the entire town essentially hating her. She shunned from church.

And eventually Emma, her sister ends up leaving her and they never speak again. There's not really evidence on why but it said that maybe Emma knew or thought that she was next because like you said earlier, they did inherit actually Emma inherited the $300,000 $300,000 estate, which is today worth between nine and 10 million. And she gave half of it to Lizzie. I mean, in Emma's defense, I wouldn't want anything to do with the bitch either. I'm like, I know what you did. Stay away from me.

Facts. So in 1927, Lizzie was either 66 or 67. She dies of natural causes, but another article I read said that she died of pneumonia. So not really sure, but about nine days later, Emma also dies. Wait, what? The sister dies like a week and a half after Lizzie died. That's freaky. That is really freaky.

I'm like, did she, I don't know. One said natural causes. One said pneumonia. Is pneumonia considered a natural cause? Well, what I read it said that she had had her gallbladder removed, died of pneumonia, said that the funeral details were never published. And then nine days later, Emma dies from some type of chronic something. And she was 76 years old and she lived in a nursing home in New Hampshire.

They had nursing homes at that time? They both had health issues. And they were all buried together, like as a family in? Yeah, because the sisters never married. See, that's a little weird. They ended up being buried, they were buried side by side in a family plot. One of the historians did say that, oh, that they thought it was interesting, for lack of words, that after Lizzie, you know, was acquitted of all the charges that she stayed

in Fall River, Massachusetts, she never tried to go anywhere else and start a new life and start over. But I feel like that speaks to just who she is as a person because she committed these crimes. She stayed there and even the officers that interviewed her there, you know, right whenever they arrived said that she was very calm and poised. And I feel like this is just who she was as a person, like no conscience, maybe, like literally can just do like these heinous things and not even care and then just continue to

live her life. I mean, on one hand, I thought maybe it was like it was a testament to her innocence, like, no, but maybe it was just you're right, like who she is as a person. And it's just, to me, we all know someone that has personality traits like a Lizzie, like, you do know someone in your life that has these characteristics, I'm not saying that, you know, she, these are like axe murderers. I'm just saying there's certain things about her. I've seen like people that I know and I'm like, fuck, like I need to stay away from

these people and she would just lie about stupid shit. Like she said that when her dad like arrived back and she helped him lay down that she had removed his boots and like put on slippers before he laid down to take a nap. And the crime scene photos literally show that he is wearing boots. Oh, I didn't even know that, like, I also knew that it was said that she helped him take off his boots, but I did not know that the crime scene photo had his boots on, like I didn't know that. So to me, when I'm reading and watching stuff to cover this, I'm like, okay, clearly this

was a girl that was adding details to stuff to try to like puff up information to just lie to lie to make something more believable and like to distract from what actually was going on. I, at this point, now that you've said that and kind of just like with the rest of it, I definitely think that she did it the not cleaning herself like being able to clean herself up in between is like the one shocking thing that I cannot explain other than maybe she didn't act alone, but I do not have blood like splattered all over you. Because they said that the police came within minutes of finding Andrew.

So again, you're talking about cleanup after not one but two murders. Yeah. And you didn't have time to burn or bury the dress or dresses before the police came. What about the weapons like, did they fingerprint these like, I don't know. And I also, what the fuck, like there's just so I just, it was, I was actually create, I was surprised when I saw like some of the experts on the documentary saying they were split, like two of them literally believed that there is no possible way that Lizzie did them.

And then there was two that was like, there's no other explanation outside of Lizzie Borden. So it's just, it's crazy how, because it really can't be explained. But I don't know that the maid would have kept the secret that like somebody would have cracked, right? Somebody like, I just think this investigation was so poor. Yeah. Immediately when they saw what potentially could have been blood on her dress, it should have been taken into evidence immediately.

They actually didn't secure the crime scene either. They never taped it off or did any type of like measures to make sure that people didn't come in and out and people were in fact coming in and out of the crime scene. For sure. Well, and I don't think that we spoke about this, but her, Lizzie and Emma were both relatively religious and had a relatively religious upbringing and were a part of like these Sunday school stuff, like church activities. I think that they helped teach Sunday school, Sunday school, yeah, to like immigrants of

the United States. And it did say that basically she was ostracized from the Fall River Society, even though she was acquitted. She was acquitted. And then I also read this, which was interesting, that she was talked about again publicly because she shoplifted in like 1897. I did not see that anywhere, but that was the last thing that she should be doing when she has a $300,000 estate.

I'm like, at what moment did Lizzie think that she should just go shoplifting? And like exactly what was it that she shoplifted? Right. Like, can we have details on this, please? We need more info. Oh, and if you do want to pay a visit to the boarding house, it is a museum now. Oh. And it operates as a bed and breakfast.

Okay, no, that's a no. Yeah. And it has like all of like the 1890s styling like the bed and breakfast does and pieces of the evidence that was used in trial, like the axe head is preserved at the Fall River Historical Society. I don't know that I would go have a bed and breakfast at the Lizzie boarding house, but I would definitely drive past it. Well, evidently you can run a room there.

Okay. I'll get that for you for your birthday. Please do not. Um, yeah, so that's the story of Lizzie Borden. Please don't teach your kids that nursery rhyme. It's sick and twisted and I don't like it. Um, but I'm going to sing it again, just because you don't like it. Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 wax.

When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41 Andrew Borden is now dead. She hit him on the head up in heaven. He will sing on the gallows. She will swing what the fuck. Like who came up with this like that. That is so creepy. Are you freaked out? Yeah, because I just I don't there's no like real explanation.

Yeah, it's it's not, it's not and you know, the trial was compared to other trials and OJ Simpson was one of them. said like this was the OJ Simpson trial of night of 1892. Did you get a weird vibe whenever you were watching the documentary that and this is like a complete accusation so just take it for what it's worth. I feel like she might have been sexually abused by her dad. Why do you say that? So the documentary that I watched was on Amazon Prime and just the way that she was with him or at least how it was depicted it was very like touchy feely and like I got the

heebie-jeebies like she had been sexually molested by him. Or like they had like an incestuous relationship? Yeah and there was a prominent suggestion that she was physically and sexually abused by her dad. It was not a lot of evidence to support it. Yeah and that's what in the interview I read with Kara Robertson. It says in here that there was you know several other theories but not necessarily any like evidence to support and incest was one of them. Yeah and I just based on what I watched and if her demeanor and his was like that in real life there was definitely something going on. That's actually really sad and

terrifying. Wondering if that had been going on for a long period of time and eventually she was just like so angry and wanted to kill him. I mean I'm not saying that there's like any justification to kill someone. I'm just like if that is in fact what was going on she was a victim herself. Right right and he would just do weird stuff like where he wouldn't want her to like go and do things and then there would be like this weird embrace that she would have with him on this show. The fact that they are in there the girls Emma and Lizzie are in their 30s and 40 years old and completely

dependent on their father. I don't know what it's like to live during those times but I found that to be really weird and they were both unmarried. So I know Lizzie says that you know she blames not being able to be up on the hill to like meet people for her reasoning on why she's not married but for both of them to be unmarried and to be living with their father still during this time is already a little off. Agreed. Agreed. So we'll end it on that note. If you have any people are blowing up my phone right now and I'm just I don't understand who is it and tell them to go away literally. I put my phone on focus when

I podcast now because I'm just like you guys I am busy talking to the fluffers like the kitty gang is way more important than any shit that's going on on my phone but watch is probably like a legitimate emergency as I'm saying that. I'm just so dead. So if you guys have any information on this case that you feel like we did not cover or you know more than us then make sure you send us a message on coffee combos podcast on our Instagram page and if you guys have not subscribed to our show do that on any podcast app we hope that you guys have enjoyed this and we'll talk to you soon. See ya!