Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 151: Greta Christina Interview

Episode Date: May 15, 2014

Special thanks to Greta Christiana for joining us. Her book information is here:   Ebook edition: The edition is available on Amazon. (That’s the link for Amazon US, btw — it’s available in other regions as well.) The edition is available at Barnes & Noble. The edition is available on Smashwords. Right now, it’s only available on Smashwords in epub format: I’m working to make it available in other formats. Print edition: The print edition is now available through . The print edition is also available at . Audiobook edition: The audiobook version is available on . The audiobook is also available through . The audiobook is also available through . Stories this week:    

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Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. So this is a bonus episode. We've got Greta Christina coming on to our show a little later. Are you going to do a This is Cognitive Dissonance? No. Yes. Fuck.

Do it. Recording live from Glory Hole Studios in Chicago, this is Cognitive Dissonance. Every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way we bring critical thinking skepticism and irreverence to any topic that makes the news makes it big or makes us mad it's skeptical it's political and there is no welcome at this is a bonus episode This is episode one bonus. One bonus, please. We have to come up with a naming convention for the bonus episode.

I know, we have to figure this out. We're not sure what we're going to do yet. I like to think of this as B1. It's like a B-side anyway. Yeah, although all the podcast is a B-side. Maybe this is the A-side. Doubtful. Highly doubtful. I know where this is headed, and it ain't a B-side. Maybe this is the A-side. Doubtful. Highly doubtful.

I know where this is headed, and it ain't the A-side. It clearly is not the A-side. But we're excited. We've got Greta Christina on as a guest for this episode. We're looking forward to that. We've got an extended, lengthy interview with Greta Christina. She's written several books. This is our second time that she's graced this lowly show with her presence. So stick around for that interview. It actually turned

out pretty great. Before we do, we want to talk about an item that is all over the news. We didn't actually fetch a news source for, and that's the Michelle Obama. I held up a sign and that's pretty much all I fucking did to solve a problem. That's great, isn't it? You're like the one person, you know, there's so could you imagine fucking Barack Obama? He's not doing anything about it. He holds up a sad sign. All of a sad ass sign. He's like, those little girls aren't around. So sign.

Frowny face. Sign. Those little girls aren't around, so sign. Frowny face. Sign. You know, it's funny, too, because of all the people who could, you know, have something to say about the girls missing. Right. She could just hold a press conference or, I don't know, do an interview with someone. Oh, she's telling me she couldn't get on fucking Barbara Walters this week.

You know what I mean? And just like, I have something to say. Well, we would like to put you on primetime. It's amazing that what they resort to is holding up these signs. Yeah. And, you know, the thing that kind of galls me about it is they're hijacking, you know, sort of that visual meme that went around during the Occupy movement. Yeah. You know, where it was like, everybody was like, it was like, it was like a form of protest, you know, to say like, hey, I've been silenced.

So rather than being silenced, I will hold up these signs and they'll speak for me and they'll, you know, identify me as part. And fucking Michelle Obama, how are you silenced? Fucking use your mouth and say some words. That shit makes me crazy. The other thing, too, is it feels a lot like prayer to me. You know, it's just like you're not doing anything. You're just asking for something to happen.

Be proactive. There's these other signs that are going around where these guys famous. I think Ashton Kutcher was one of them. Justin Timberlake was another one. And it said something like hashtag real men don't buy women or something like that. And the first thing I thought was who the fuck is going to be influenced

by your sign that is going to buy a woman? You know what I mean? I'm in the market to buy a woman, let's say. But then I played sexy back. Am I checking the reviews? I'm checking the reviews on Consumer Reports. And I just happened to come across your picture.

Like, why would that even sway me? And the second thing I thought is like, why don't you just give some of your immense amount of funds to the problem then to fix it? Because you have a lot of money. And you can do something about it instead of just holding up a sign. I know. And I'm sure that, you know, maybe they're doing something that I'm missing. Maybe, maybe somebody in the audience can be like, well, what they're really doing is bringing attention to it.

Yeah, maybe. But they could bring a hell of a lot of attention to it if they donated, I don't know, $100,000 to the cause, let's say, you know, of stopping human trafficking in some way. But instead, they're just holding up a sign. Man, I just think that's lame. Dude, you know, it's it's that fucking slacktivism bullshit is what it is it's it's it's the idea that somehow raising awareness is equivalent to actually helping and it's not you gotta raise awareness great we raised awareness oh man look at that

we all fucking got out and ran a 5k about it don't we all feel good about ourselves i got a little ribbon on my car. I'm doing a thing. Yeah. Did you fucking donate a money? Did you put your money where your mouth is? Because that's what those groups need. If you can't offer material support in terms of like, I am doing a work, then you need to do money donation. If you're not doing money donation or a work, you're wasting time.

That's totally true. And it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's more insulting that the people that have means, have power, have people that, you know, I mean, there's ways in which that they can do something and they're, they're choosing to instead, I mean, literally do nothing. Like I said, when I compared it to prayer, I mean, really, that's what it is. I mean, literally do nothing. Like I said, when I compared it to prayer, I mean, really, that's what it is. You're not, you know, saying let our girls go. You know, clearly the guy over in fucking Elmer Fudd or Amir Fudd or whatever is not going to look at this and be like, oh, they want the girls free? Oh, fucking dude, get them out of there.

Why didn't anybody tell me? I didn't realize Michelle Obama wanted the girls free. You guys told me she was a board. You guys told me we had Michelle Obama's consent. No kidding, right? You lied to me. I will shoot you with a grenade. I will brandish my AK-47 at you.

We're not talking about people who don't have funds. If you want to raise awareness because you don't have means, that is a different thing like we are talking very specifically about power players so this next story comes from the raw story ex-navy chaplain unbiblical gun laws make california vulnerable to invasion by Japan. That's true. True story. My favorite thing to read all week. True story. Dr. Chaps Gordon Klingenschmitt.

Oh, good old Gordon. I love that every time the Raw story introduces him, they always introduce him the same way. A disgraced former Navy chaplain. They do it every single time. It's my fucking favorite thing. It's like, hey, this guy, we're going to introduce him to you. Don't forget he's disgraced. Alright,

everyone's got that? Phenomenal. He's like super disgraced too, just so you know. And it always links to the same Washington Post article. Like the word disgraced is a hyperlink that always links to the same Washington Post article. Like the word disgraced is a hyperlink that always links to the same Washington Post article. It's awesome. But anyway, I guess he's decided that you got to have a lot of guns to arm yourself, Cecil, against the left-wing crazies.

Not just that, Tom. Here, I'm going to read directly what Gordon, Dr. Assless Chaps Klingenschmitt said. And we were corrected, by the way. I guess all chaps are assless? I didn't realize that. It's like redundant. When you say assless chaps, you're just like saying ATM machine. It's the same thing, essentially.

He says at least from without, he was talking about guns here, he's saying the founding fathers gave us the Second Amendment because they recognize that people ought to be safe and secure from invasion, at least from without. He opined. I love that they he opined. That's why Japan never invaded California, because the Californians carried guns, but not anymore. They might be vulnerable to that.

At least now they're rotting from within. Now, maybe he's not saying that Japan is coming over here now, but maybe he is. No, the Japanese are going to come over and eat our little Californian babies. They're actually sending Godzilla is what they're doing. They're sending Godzilla over. They've mastered him. He's like a fucking pet. He's like an attack dog for Japan now.

Yeah. And you know, the thing is, if they had more guns, Godzilla wouldn't be able to attack. Godzilla's like, they're like, go to California.

He's like, but they all have guns. What could I possibly do against these humans with guns? Yeah, it's just like what an F-16 would do to people with shotguns. Right, exactly. You know, and he was making these comments based on a shooting at a FedEx facility in Georgia earlier. based on a shooting at a FedEx facility in Georgia earlier. And he's basically saying that if the company had not violated biblical teachings and made the area a gun-free zone, that I guess other people could have shot the guy who was shooting other people,

and that would have definitely resulted in less carnage. And I absolutely cannot stop but, like, scratch my head when people, very serious people, will tell you that like, man, we got to do something about all these shootings. And I think the answer is more guns. Everybody says that, though. I mean, really, that is what people say when they do talk about this stuff. And that's the answer that many people have. And they'll point to the times

that you can see like your security footage of where somebody pulls a gun on somebody else, they drop the money on the ground and then the guy pulls his gun out and shoots somebody in the face or whatever. Well, yes, the person got caught, the person was doing something wrong and there can be arguments made about if somebody holds a gun to know, then they deserve to die, et cetera, et cetera.

There could be some arguments made, some philosophical arguments there. Many times when people are killed, when they do stuff, that is not a punishment that is fit for that crime. Right. You know, stealing something from somebody. When you know, if you were to get away with it and you were to be tried, they would never be like, well, let's shoot him in the face. You know, that doesn't happen. The judge never is like, well, let me look through my big book of judgments here and see what I'm going to do. Oh, he stole a motorcycle. Well, that's a face shoot. That never happens. You know what I mean? Like's not a thing that happens. So even if we were to say that guns somehow did deter, not deter crime, but at least stop crime, because clearly they're not going to deter it.

If they were to stop the crime, then they would stop the crime with this sort of level of violence that you're meeting out on them that they may or may not deserve. Does that make any sense? Yeah, man. Look, armed robbery is not a capital crime. But, you know, armed robbery when a vigilante meets, and don't get me wrong, like I do think that people should have, I think people should have an opportunity and a right to self-defense. I mean, if somebody is breaking into your home and you can defend yourself and you do defend yourself, do I think you should be, you know, tried and convicted for defending your home and you can defend yourself and you do defend yourself. Do I think

you should be, you know, tried and convicted for defending your home and family? I don't. But, you know, the problem is that creating and fostering a vigilante culture based on this false idea that everybody's a fucking sniper and that everybody is capable of confronting an armed person in a challenge situation and taking that person out without creating a tremendous amount of collateral damage or, you know, increasing the casualty rate. It's just not true. You know, leave, leave the fucking shooting of people in the face to the professionals. Leave the fucking shooting of people in the face to the professionals. That's not amateur hour work.

That's not like, oh, well, we'll just let little Billy try it. You know, the other day. Exactly. Right. Well, that's the next step, right? I mean, the NRA would be like, well, you know, we need armed guards in schools. Well, hell, can't we just arm the kids? Can't we just, you know, put little shoulder holsters on all the kids and have them walk around like little hitmen?

Put grenade launchers on the guard dogs, whatever it takes. We'll put claymores on the exit doors. Actually, what they should have is guard dog launchers instead. That's what they should have. You're all dead. Oh, be nice. Oh, my son doesn't stand a chance. The whole world's gone gay. Oh, my God.

What's happening now? We work hard. We play hard. Everybody dance now. So, Cecil, there was a sports doings that Dundid transpired this week. There was a sports doings that Dundid transpired this week. There was a sports doings. The NFL draft was this weekend. Nobody drafted me.

I noticed then. I didn't get any phone calls. You're going to be joining a team as an undrafted water boy. Good. So you have that going for you. I've been a free agent my whole life. Free agent. The thing is that there was an openly gay college player

by the name of Michael Sam and he went to the I believe it's the St. Louis Rams is who he was drafted by really? wait really? he got drafted by the Rams? Tom I'm 11 years old that's fucking funny He got drafted by the Rams? Tom. I'm 11 years old.

That's fucking funny. You really are something else. I mean, really. I wouldn't be surprised if every 10 minutes you just scream boobies for no reason. You think I can go 10 minutes? In any case, Michael Sam was drafted and a ton of people. This is from the Patheos blogs, Friendly Atheist. the uh patheos blogs uh friendly atheist uh ton of people on twitter um and i mean i use people loosely here uh could be trolls could be just douchebags and i clearly one of them is a douchebag

because it's brian fisher uh but there's a lot of people who just do not like uh the idea that michael sam is gay and open and a football player uh there's a lot of people who have a lot to say about it on Twitter. And mostly, I mean, I'm going to go negative. I'm going to say they're saying negative things. Yeah, I would say so. And you know what makes me crazy about this is all the love the sinner, hate the sin stuff. Like that stuff. It's like, yeah, it's fucking I'm super disappointed and I fucking hate this.

But, you know, love the sin or hate the sin. That's the equivalent of, but I got a black friend. Yeah, no kidding, isn't it? Hey, look, I like whipping black folks, but I got a black friend. I mean, I'd buy one, but I'm just saying. It's that same fucking thing, man. One of the famous douchebags here is Brian Fisher. And he's like Obama to gay football player. You should be judged by what you do.

Agree. Why we call it a sin. So then he's got a link here. So clearly Brian Fisher saying he's he's sinning. Another person by the name of Emo. Your name's Emo. Really? Says stop sinning against the Lord, Michael. You are committing a mortal sin by having a boyfriend and by kissing him. Is it a mortal sin, really?

I don't know. I don't know. That whole mortal venal thing. Now, a mortal sin, that's like a finisher, right? That's where you punch their heads off and the blood shoots out. You've got to harpoon their chest first. Yeah, right. And then you say, get over here.

Right, yeah, exactly. And then you pull your mask off and breathe fire on them. Is that how that works? I don't... You know, I never played Mortal Sin anyway. I played Mortal Sin 2, so I don't... Much better. Much better.

Much better. Better graphics. I mean, just better graphics. You know, the girls were dressed skimpier. It's just a better game. The game control in hell is just vastly superior, for sure. This is another one um it's the same guy now he's stopped uh evidently his caps lock is off now he says

michael sam is stupid he better pray god will forgive him michael doesn't know that homosexual acts are a very serious sin against god very serious business it turns out uh to be a homosexual yeah well you know i mean, Michael Sam is stupid. He probably just signed a contract worth millions of dollars. Yeah, hundreds of thousands at least. So, yeah, what a dummy. Man, what a goofball that guy is. He's celebrating his life with someone that he loves and recently celebrated a major career milestone.

What an idiot. This other person, Rick. Rick says, I need a way to express my discomfort for gay people without sounding like a complete asshole. Yeah. Well, definitely not Twitter. Yeah. I'd avoid the Twitters. You read that and it's like, well, there's a reason there's no way for you to say bigoted hateful shit and not sound like a hateful bigot.

Exactly. It's like, man, if only there was some way I could be a hateful shithead without coming off, you know, like such a hateful shithead. Because I don't like being a hateful shithead. I mean, it's really awkward as a hateful shithead. This is Pitcher Bro. Pitcher Bro says, I just don't get it. Why is this sin and debauchery allowed on national TV? How am I supposed to explain that to my kids?

What, the NFL draft? That's going to take a long time. Who watches the NFL draft? That's going to take a long time. Yeah, who watches the NFL draft with young kids? That's going to be the most boring day ever for a child. Yeah, well, you see, he did really great in the combine, son, so we're going to have to say, you know, his 100-yard dash was really pretty spectacular, but we felt like he could have done it.

Are you fucking kidding me? That kid would be so fucking bored. I was bored saying those words. Yeah. You know what's awesome? Just as a side note on that draft, I checked who we drafted in Chicago, and there's a video that you can watch at the Combine. So I clicked on one of the guys because they didn't have any video of his college career.

And I click and I start watching. And it's amazing the parallels between the draft and what they make those guys do. And like coursing a hound through a kennel club like dog show. Because the guy's got his football down on the ground. And he tells the guy to run and the guy starts running backwards. And when the guy moves the football to the left, he doesn't throw it. He just moves it to the left. The guy runs to the left and he moves it to the right. And the guy runs running backwards. And when the guy moves the football to the left, he doesn't throw it. He just moves it to the left. The guy runs to the left and he moves it to the right

and the guy runs to the right. It looks like, I mean, it totally looks like you've got a beagle out there chasing a rabbit. It's ridiculous. It's the most ridiculous thing in the world. If they catch it, they're like, drop it. Drop it. They'll have to wipe the slobber off of it.

Give me the Kong. Give me the Kong. What they don't tell you is they actually rub the football with peanut butter before they start. Right. Yeah. That's a classic way to do it. Those guys operate on scent. So we're going to take a quick break and we'll be back with our interview with Greta Christina. Stick around because she does most of the talking. So the show's actually

palatable. If you would like to contact the show, visit the website, dissonancepod.com for the links to the Facebook, Twitter, Google Plus, and email accounts. You can also call and leave a message at 740-74-DOUBT. That's 740-743-6828. Did you know that you can become a patron of the show? Go to patreon.com. That's p-a-t-r-e-o-n.com forward slash dissonance pod and you can donate to the production of Cognitive Dissonance on a per episode basis. If you don't want to donate money, please take a moment to give us a good review on iTunes or Stitcher or tell a like-minded

friend about the show. So to everyone who supports the show, glory hole. You fucking rock. So we're here with Greta Christina. She's an author and a blogger. Her blog is called Greta Christina's blog. It's on Freethought Blogs. Her most recent book is called Coming Out Atheist, How to Do It, How to Help Each Other and Why. It's available on Amazon and it's also available

as an audio book on Audible and iTunes. Greta, you do a lot of stuff. If our audience doesn't know who you are, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, I'm Greta Christina. I'm a writer, blogger, public speaker. Like you said, I wrote Coming Out Atheist, How to Help Each Other and Why. That's my new book. And it's e-book, print, audio book, all the formats. I also wrote Why Are You Atheists So Angry? 99 Things That Piss Off the Godless. I'm author of a porn book. That's the only way I can put it. Erotic fiction, I think, is the polite term, called Bending Dirty Kinky Stories About Pain, Power, Religion, Unicorns, and More. And more recently, I've been co-organizing and co-hosting this thing in San Francisco called The Godless Perverts, which is a performance series mostly in San Francisco and sometimes at conferences and also a social community that's organized around atheism and sexuality.

You know, exploring atheist views of sexuality and our views of sex and religion and sex and science and sex and skepticism and all that. And I do a lot of public speaking and I try to find time in there to have a life, but I'm not supposed to. Godless perverts. Those are like my two favorite things, it turns out. Godless and perverts. That's awesome. What is the downside there? There's no downside on the godless perverts. I know, right? So, you know, before we get into the book, because I'm one of those guys who judges every book by its cover, you've got to tell us about the covers of your book because the last two covers have been pretty consistent. They're awesome.

They look great. How do you decide to do the cover? Do you have an artist that does this for you? I do have an artist. I will plug him happily. His name is Kazimir Fornalski. And I first we've met. We've met. I don't even remember when a while ago. Just our paths just crossed. But I did a contest on my blog when I was writing.

Why are you atheists so angry? And it turns out that's actually kind of a no no. I would recommend against doing that because it turns out there's this thing in the graphic design community where people do contests and it's, you know, free or cheap work. But I wouldn't do that again. But I did this contest and I had a lot of really good entries. And then Casimires came in. I was like, okay, this is clearly the one. And not only do I want to design to, to use this design for this book, why are you atheists so angry? I want him to design the cover for every book I ever write.

And so, yeah, ever since then, we've just been working together. He's done the cover for all my other books. And, yes, absolutely. He's a really, if anybody's out there looking for a graphic designer, you know, he's just really good at getting that. I don't know how to describe it. It's like that blend of, it's like impact and, you know, it's very strong and, you know, very powerful, but also kind of funny, you know, and kind of joyful and welcoming.

So anyway, I could gas on about him all day. It reminded me of like a, I don't know, sort of a humorous propaganda poster in a way. Yeah, I got the same thing. Like an old school, like almost like Eastern European propaganda thing. But it's kind of got like a wink at the camera, sort of a whimsical nod. They're fun. I think they're fun covers. I love that.

Russian social realism, but funny. So again, another question before we get into the book here. I want to mention that before, in the past, we had had David Silverman on the show and he had said that he thinks there's a lot more atheists out there than are actually saying they're atheists. There's a lot more people out there. And that's why he puts these billboards up all over and talks and does this sort of outreach to try to reach this group. Clearly, you must think the same thing writing a book like this. Absolutely. I'm convinced of it. And one of the reasons why I'm convinced of that is when I was researching this book, I read over 400 coming out atheist stories. I've collected them on my own blog. I put out the word to pretty much every atheist I knew saying, spread the word. I'm doing this thing. I read coming out stories on other

websites and books and so on. And there's a couple of themes that came up over and over again. And one of them is people come out as non-believers and all of a sudden every other non-believer in their life comes out of the woodwork. It's like people, they had no idea were non-believers because they'd been keeping it quiet too. You know, people are like, it turns out my dad's an atheist. It turns out my brother's an atheist. It turns out all these people in my class, other people I work with. And it works the other way, too, where people feel emboldened to come out because they've met somebody else who's an out nonbeliever. of people saying, I've been keeping this quiet for a very long time. I didn't tell my friends. I didn't tell my family.

And then for some reason, they decided I really have to tell. Well, think about all the people who are having that exact same thought process, but they haven't come out yet. So, yes, I do think that there are a lot of people who are secret nonbelievers and aren't telling anybody. And I also strongly suspect that there's a lot of people who are on the fence, people who are having questions, people who are having doubts, but they're afraid to tell anybody, you know, partly just because they're afraid themselves of, you know, what happens if it turns out that I investigate this question and there

really is no God and then I have to completely rethink my life. And also what happens if I decide there really is no God and then I have to start telling people and, you know, I might have problems with my family. I might have problems with my community. So there's people who are already nonbelievers who aren't coming out. And then I think, again, there's people who are on the fence, who are scared to even really ask the question. You know, there seems to me that there's a shit ton of sort of soft atheists out there. You know, the ones that, I think of my dad, actually. My dad, I strongly suspect, no longer believes.

But he'll never say anything about it. He'll never, and I don't know why. I don't know what the level of discomfort is, you know, even though we're not like, we've never been a religious family. And I think books like Coming Out Atheist, how to do it, an actual guide. You know, I think this is sort of the you know, the book that people would almost be more comfortable reading your porn book in public rather than reading this book. You know, for some folks, you know, like they'll have out, you know, like the fucking swank

magazine or whatever before they'll have out coming out atheist at the, you know, while eating their lunch outside in the courtyard. You might be right. I mean, I see people reading Fifty Shades of Grey at airports, you know, totally out in public. So it's you might be right about that. My hope and part of my hope with writing this book is that that becomes less true. I mean, it's one of the things that we found, even just with the degree of people coming out that we have now, is that when we come out, it doesn't just make it easier for other non-believers to come out. It kind of makes atheism seem more ordinary. It reduces some of the stigma against us. It's one of the main reasons, I think, to do it, is that it makes it, you know, it's sort of this thing where it's hard

to come out now, but coming out is what's going to make it easier, right? It's going to make it easier for ourselves and it's going to make it easier for other people because that's what's going to reduce the stigma. We certainly found that in the LGBT community. It's something we've known for decades that as difficult as coming out can be, it's much easier now than it was 20, 30 years ago. And that's because people have been coming out and that's made it easier. It's reduced the stigma against it. It's let people know that we're that we're good people and so on. So and I think you're

right. You're talking about your dad. I think that there are a lot of people who they're almost afraid of the word atheist. You know, they're they're willing to say, oh, I'm not religious. They're willing to say, you know, I'm having questions, I'm having doubts, but they're a little afraid of the word. And I honestly don't care that much what word people use. Right, right. But I do want people to be more clear. I think that sometimes people are kind of vague,

and I think that that's not super helpful to us as a community. But it's also this is again, a theme that came up a lot in my research. When people are vague about they say, Oh, I'm not religious, or I'm having doubts or whatever. Then when it's really important, then when there's a wedding, a funeral and illness in the family, some reason why religion is important. You know, there's a story in the book of this woman who thought she had come out to her mom. She'd said, I think she'd even said, I don't believe in God. And her mom said, fine. And she was like, oh, that went better than I thought. And then a few months later, she's talking about her wedding. And she's saying,

well, of course, it's going to be an atheist wedding. And there's like these tumbleweeds and crickets. And her mom says, what do you mean? She says, well, I'm an atheist. So we're not, we're going to have an atheist wedding.

There's not going to be a preacher or prayers. And her mother's like, what do you mean? You're an atheist. And she said, I told you I didn't believe in God. And she's like, well,

I didn't know you were an atheist. And so it was kind of this little crisis and that story turned out okay but eventually but it is this thing where when we're not clear about what we are and what we think then that can lead to that sort of problem when it really is when the issue is really important now you had uh you had said you just told a story and you said that you read over 400 stories of people coming out that you had collected. What was the collection process like for you? You know, you're reading a lot of these. Did any of these stories surprise you?

A lot of stories surprised me. I mean, individual stories surprised me. And then these themes came up as I was reading them that surprised me. And then these themes came up as I was reading them that surprised me. I actually kind of had this whole narrative in this very straightforward do a do b do c you know like the directions on your phone you know it's like turn left and then go straight for 10 miles and then tell your grandmother and you know then turn left on main street and I realized it can't be that because there's no one right way to do this there's all these different ways to do it depending on your circumstances and your personality and your family and and you know

that kind of thing and so i kind of had to reimagine it instead of a set of directions i think of it now as a map of the territory i'm saying here's a bunch of things that could come up here's a bunch of things other people have done things they think they did right things they think they did wrong here are your choices here's how to some help on how to make it. So that was one thing that surprised me was just how varied the stories were. Another thing that really surprised me, and this is a very happy surprise, is how often the stories turn out well. And I was really expecting to read the story after story of this tragedy and heartbreak and people who aren't speaking to their families and people who lost their jobs. And I did read some of those stories. And I'm

not going to deny that for a minute. There are some very heartbreaking stories in this book. But I was surprised at that there were kind of the exception. And most people who have come out as nonbelievers now say that they're happier. They say that they feel better. And they say that many of them said, this is actually fine with my family. This is now fine with my friends at work. You know, it's and that can be various degrees of fine. Sometimes it's well, yeah, it's kind of awkward, but we still get along and we still love each other. And sometimes it's like it's completely awesome.

It's not a problem at all. People who thought it was going to be a huge crisis, it turned out to be either no crisis or yeah, it was kind of a crisis, but we got over it. And, and now even the people who had a very hard time with it still say that they think it was the right decision. In fact, literally of all the stories I read, one person said they regretted having come out. They think it was the wrong decision. So there were there were a lot of people who had a very hard time, but even they think that it was the right decision. And there are a lot of people who had much less of a hard time than they thought they were going to.

And that really surprised me. I wasn't expecting that at all. You know, one thing that I thought about while I was reading this book is how much and I wanted to get your thoughts on this. How much of does this book fill a generational need? So what I mean by that, I guess, is I think for people who I'm in my my mid 30s, I think for people who are younger than myself, my age and younger, you know, being an atheist is pretty common, or at least much more common than in, say, my dad's age group, you know, the 60s and 70s. How much does a book like this, do you think, fill a generational need, a generational gap? And how much do you think a book like this is going to be needed in 15 years or 25 years? Well, that's a very good question. I do think that

this is an important question for people of all ages. And certainly when I was collecting stories, I got stories from a lot of students, a lot of young people, you know, people in high school, people in college and so on. And now I do think you're right that for the most part, for people who are 25 and under among their peers, it's easier to come out as an atheist, although certainly not easy. You know, it's like there are certainly people who are going to religious schools or they live in religious communities and so on. And it can still be difficult. But, you know, you know but you know so to some extent you know people 25 and under it's probably going to be a little bit less of an issue among peers than among

you know than for older people if for no other reason they're just more atheists you know it's like you look at all those polls it's yeah rates of non-belief are skyrocketing people 25 and under but for people who are younger it still can be an issue with family. You know, you can be a nonbeliever and your peers can all be nonbelievers or not give a shit. But if your family are still very religious, then it can still be a hard time. If your neighbors are still very religious, if you're going to take a job at a place where your boss and your coworkers are very religious. It might, it still can be an issue. And certainly I got a lot of, uh, stories from young people talking about issues they had. So I, I, I do think that there's certainly at this moment, a need for this across generation. I mean, certainly my hope is that eventually this book will become obsolete. That, that would be awesome.

I'm a little pessimistic as whether that's going to be 10 or 15 years. You know, it's, I mean, think about, again, the LGBT community. You know, we've been writing coming out guides since forever, the late 60s, early 70s, probably, possibly earlier than that. But certainly a lot of them, because that was when we really started pushing coming out as a way to make our own lives better and a way to make ourselves into a community and a political force. And we still have to do it. You know, it's still hard. You know, it's like it's 2014. And we still have

to have websites talking about here's how to come out to your family. Here's how to come out to at school. So it's, you know, it's better now than it was. But, you know, I'm a little pessimistic as to whether it's going to be unnecessary in 10 or 15 years, maybe in 50 or 100. I don't know. Well, maybe in 50 or 100, they'll look back on it like we look back on the Y2K books that came out. You really had to do that? You had to come out as an atheist? I hope that that's a case eventually. Well, I do think we actually have an interesting advantage over the LGBT community, which is that I know that in the atheist community, we parallel ourselves a lot. We model ourselves on the LGBT community, the LGBT movement. We absolutely should. There's a lot of parallels and there's a lot that we can learn. But there's some important differences. And one of the differences is that rates of being gay are not going up. About the same number of people are LGBT as always were. But rates of nonbelief are going up.

And in fact, part of the reason for that is more people coming out. Coming out doesn't just, as an atheist, it doesn't just encourage people who are already non-believers to come out of the closet. It encourages people to rethink religion. And so we have kind of an advantage there, which is that we're actually are increasing our numbers and that that's not the case for LGBT people. So, so that's now we also, I think they'll have a disadvantage. And this is something I write about a lot in the book. So that's, now we also, I think, though, have a disadvantage. And this is something I write about a lot in the book. And that's that coming out LGBT, you're not implying that straight people are wrong to be straight. But there's no way to say, I don't believe in God, without implying if you do believe in God, you're wrong.

in God without implying if you do believe in God, you're wrong. And I think that that does make relationships between atheists and non-believers. I think that there's always going to be a little bit of attention there that isn't necessarily there in relationships between LGBT people and straight people. So that's a little bit of a disadvantage that we have. But I do think that the growing numbers are a huge advantage. Oh, sure. And it's also the case that you can't sit down and have a cup of coffee and, you know, convince somebody to be gay. I know, unlike what a lot of the right wing nut jobs would have you believe there is no magic formula that's going to sit down and be like, you know, you've

got a good point. I think I'm going to be gay now, like as opposed to atheism. You know, it's like Peter Boghossian's book, A Manual for Creating Atheists. There'd be like a manual for creating gays. That's not a thing. It's just not something that could exist. Right. Yeah. Yeah, of course not. And that's that's kind of an important difference is, you know, being LGBT, it's something that's subjectively true about yourself. And probably people are to at least to some extent born that way. I mean, it's more complicated than that. But but yeah, atheism, it's an opinion about the world. And so, yeah, it's we can don't doesn't usually happen over the course of one conversation. But yeah,

you can convince people of it. So that's that's a big difference. You talk about a lot of different ways in which to come out as an atheist. And one of the ways, and you collected a lot of stories, so what the hell, tell my story, right? You talk about the no big deal method, and that really worked for me at work. Can you tell our audience about the no big deal method? Sure. So there's a lot of different ways to talk with people about being a non-believer. And, you know, there's the sitting them down and saying, I have something very important to tell you, you know, and I do not believe in God. And, you know, you time it and

you make sure that it's at a good time. And that can really work for people that you're close to, who you think you're going to have a hard time with it, you know, your fundamentalist mother. But it can also be very powerful, instead of coming out and having the big conversation, to just be out, to just mention your atheism when it comes up. Somebody says, what are you doing this weekend? Oh, I'm going to this atheist conference. What are you reading? I'm reading this book about atheism. To just, you know, when somebody says, what do you think about X political issue? Well, as an atheist, you know, I think that church and state separation is important, blah, blah, blah.

So, and that can be very powerful. For one thing, it makes atheism seem ordinary. You know, it makes it not, you know, if we don't treat it like a big deal, then that kind of puts the expectation out on the rest of the world to not treat it as a big deal. And it, I don't treat it like a big deal, then that kind of puts the expectation out on the rest of the world to not treat it as a big deal. And it, I don't like to use the word normalizing because that kind of implies that normal equals good, but it makes it ordinary. It makes it just, you know, and, and I think that that can be very powerful. And it's, you know, the downside of that is if somebody does blow a gasket, then you might not be ready for it. If you just sort of mention offhand in the car on your way to the movies that you're an atheist and the person who's driving bursts into tears and you suddenly have to pull over the car so you can have this conversation.

So it kind of depends on context and depends on who you're talking with. And again, I do tend to counsel if it's somebody who's really important to you and you do think they're going to have a hard time, choose the time carefully, choose the space carefully, do it at a time when they're going to have time and space to process. But yeah, just being out, it can be very, very powerful. Yeah, I think it works great with like casual acquaintances, people that you're not you don't really have to have a talk with that, you know, you really I guess you kind of don't care what their reaction would be. It's a wonderful method. Exactly. I'm kind of curious. So how does that work for you? You know, it worked. It worked great. What I what what I did was I work for, um, I work for a religious university. So my department is a pretty religious department and it just so happened that something came up because religion is constantly brought up. So I just mentioned that I was an atheist and people now I'm kind of like an oddity. They're

like, Oh, you're like an, you're like an atheist, but you're like a good atheist. How does that work? And then I get a chance to explain humanism to them. So it's actually very advantageous. That's a big part of what makes coming out so powerful is it gives you this opportunity, if you want to, to do atheism 101 education and to be an example of how atheists can be good people. And again, that's what changes people's minds about us. And again, you can do that in the, I'm sitting you down and we're having this conversation. We're going to have a five-hour conversation about humanism. Or it can just be by example. You know, you're just a good person.

You get your work done on time. You keep your promises. You obviously, you care about people. You're doing work in the community and you treat people with decency and respect. You know, whether it's like, again, you're sitting them down to community and you treat people with decency and respect, you know, whether it's like, again, you're sitting them down to have the big conversation about it or just being this example. Yeah, it does. You know, it it it changes people's minds. And that's really powerful. See, I like the skydiving method.

So I just get him up on the plane and then right before we're by. By the way, I'm an atheist. Jump out. It really cuts the conversation nice and short, you know. It's expensive as hell, though. I mean, it really costs a fortune to get them all up there. I was going to say, you do that every single time. Yeah, it's exhausting. It's also hard to find a parachute that'll hold me, let's be honest about that. That's very true, Tom.

That's very true. Now, okay, so we we talked about, you know, certainly coming out. It's it's it's all these benefits. But there are some some times that it's really not a good reason to come out. What are some of those ways in ways in which you caution people? Maybe you shouldn't come out. Sure. Again, I will emphasize very rarely in this book. Do I say this is the right thing to do, this is the wrong thing to do. There's very few absolutes in this, so I do encourage people to trust their own instincts and to understand there's lots of different ways to do that. Not absolute, but, you know, seem to apply to most people. And one of those is if you really think that it's going to be that's going to screw up your life. If you're a student and you're dependent on your parents, you know, you're living at home, they're paying your tuition, you know, one of those things. And you think that they might actually cut you off, which has happened.

Yeah. Then it might be a good idea to wait. Wait until you're out of school. Wait until you're out of the house. Wait until you're not dependent on them anymore. Same thing at work. If you're at a workplace and you really think that you might lose your job, you think that you might not get a promotion that you're expected, that it could cause a real hardship at work, it's not a bad idea to wait until either you can get another job or at least you have like a backup plan. You've got your resume in order.

You put out feelers. You've got maybe a couple months' salary if you can put that together, saved up. So that's one of the times when I do tend to think this isn't the best time to do it. It's not that you should never do it. But, you know, we don't want any martyrs, right? Right, right. What's great about atheism is no martyrs. So, you know, so't we don't want any martyrs, right? Right. Right. About atheism is no martyrs. So, you know, so don't do it in that situation. And it's generally speaking,

sometimes it's impossible to avoid. And I'll get into that in a sec. But it's best to not come out during a crisis if you can avoid it. And so, in fact, it's one of the reasons why a council, crisis if you can avoid it. In fact, it's one of the reasons why a council, if you can, come out sooner rather than later. Because there are a lot of these stories of people saying there's this family crisis and religion was this big issue. And I felt like it was the wrong time for me to say I'm an atheist, but it was horrible that I had to keep that secret. You know, where I have this death in the family, this crisis, this accident, whatever. And people keep talking about religion and I have to keep my mouth shut. And different people have responded to that differently.

There are people who waited. They said, I didn't have that conversation with my mom. I waited until a couple months later. And some people were like, I really had to tell them right then. But and that's a decision that people have to make for themselves, but it is kind of an argument for coming out sooner rather than later. So that when the crisis comes up, you already have that conversation behind you. Uh, uh, and actually another argument for coming out sooner rather than later is sometimes people get out it, you know, it's, it's, you tell one person and they blab it to everybody else.

Or people have accidentally outed themselves. This is one of the funniest stories in the book because it eventually turned out well. But this woman, her neighbor had asked her, do you want to see Religious, the Bill Maher movie? And she thought, she forwarded this email to her husband saying, this is the last thing I want to do with the world is see this movie with my neighbor, who's very religious.

But she accidentally hit reply. Oh, no! And then she sent this email saying, the last thing I want to do is see this movie. And so, of course, she immediately had to send her another email saying, I'm so sorry. It's not that I didn't want to see a movie with you. It wasn't about that. It's just about.

And then she comes out. She says, I'm an atheist. I know you're a believer. I knew this was going to be a hard conversation and I was reluctant to have it. And that story actually turned out well. You know, it was like the neighbor was fine with it. In fact, that was the reason she had invited her to the movie. She was like, I kind of thought that was true and I wanted to spark that conversation.

But that kind of story comes up a lot in the book. You know, the person who – he comes out on Facebook and he thinks, well, it's fine because my grandparents don't read Facebook. But he has an uncle who reads Facebook and tells his grandparents. You know, that kind of thing, whether it's accidentally outing yourself or other people outing you, it happens a lot. And so it is this thing where it's better, generally speaking, to do it yourself, to do it on your own terms. You know, you pick the time. You know, it's not sprung on you. So, again, it's kind of an argument for if you can come out sooner rather than later, it's not a bad idea.

kind of an argument for if you can come out sooner rather than later, it's not a bad idea. We have a lot of people who email the show, and we get a lot of email from people who they just can't come out. They are young, either too young, and they're still under their parents' sort of, you know, house, and it's still under the roof. They still have to follow those rules. Or some people that are in, you know, very strict religions like Jehovah's Witness, their whole family will just disappear. They will never talk to their family again. We get letters like this from, I want to say Mormons and Jehovah Witness seem to be the ones that send these emails a lot where they just say, I just can't come out. If I come out, it's going to be a disaster like family wise. Yeah. those are actually some of the most heartbreaking stories in the book are Jehovah's Witnesses. You know, I've just gotten this, I don't want to use the word hatred because it's too strong a word, but just, I'm furious about

Jehovah's Witnesses because there's all these stories, you know, of people, because that's the thing. Jehovah's Witnesses, if you leave the religion, you are completely cut off. It is required that if you have a friend or family member who's left the religion you are completely cut off it is required that if you have a friend or family member who's left the religion you're required to never speak to them again gosh you know it's a cult i'm going to say that it's like a cult it is a cult and because that's what cults do right yeah cut you off from the rest of society it's very insular you're not supposed to have contact with the outside world except as absolutely necessary. And if you leave, you're isolated.

It's a terrible thing to do. And it's this thing where people are always saying, oh, religion brings people together. Well, bullshit. This doesn't bring people together. This cuts people out. Now, I will say that the Jehovah's Witnesses in the book, they are ultimately glad that they came out because it was too hard for them to live a lie. It was just they couldn't.

It was like the prospect of living the rest of their life, keeping the secret and never getting to talk to people and always being afraid. Well, maybe I talk to people on the Internet, but maybe somebody will find out. That's a really hard way to live. But they had to be really careful. You know, there's one person who wrote in the book who wrote a story for the book about leaving Jehovah's Witnesses. And basically he had to build a really careful life raft. You know, he got a job that was in another city so that, you know, so that he, you know, that was outside the Jehovah's Witness community, he actually got an apartment, you know, away from home, ready to go to so that

when he was ready to come out, because he knew the minute he came out, he wasn't going to have a wife, he wasn't going to have children, he wasn't going to have folks. And so, and he thinks it was the right decision. He says, I would have just not survived that. But you do have to be in that situation very, very careful. And it is hard. And I'm not going to blame somebody if they decide that their family and their friends are more important than being open about their atheism. You know, you get to decide that for yourself. You know that you get to decide that for yourself. What I will say is that other people who have done this, they do say that they think it was the right decision.

But it's but it's a hard decision. You know, the stories in the book that struck me as particularly gut wrenching were the stories where people had to they come to atheism just naturally throughout the course of their lifespan. And then they have to tell their spouse. Maybe they got married, they were both religious. One of the two parties moves away from religion and toward atheism, and they have to navigate that channel. And I can't imagine the horror of having to wonder, am I going to lose my spouse? Am I going to lose my relationship with my kids?

One of the stories in the book relayed a pretty awful tale of people leveraging somebody's loss of faith in a custody situation. And it's just absolutely grueling to hear those stories. And you relayed the Jehovah's Witness tale. And all I can think is, like, when you said it's a cult, it's like, yeah, of course it's a cult, man. They control joy. Like any situation that tries to control when you get to feel joy is absolutely suspect. But talk a little bit about navigating that. Because I think we think a lot of times about coming out to our parents, coming out to kind of authority figures. But there's also that navigation that has to happen for some people when they come out to a spouse.

Absolutely. In fact, there's an entire chapter on it. I will get into that. Before I do, though, I want to plug somebody else's book. You know Dale McGowan, the Raising Freethinkers Parenting Beyond Belief guy? I've heard of him, yes. Yeah. the Raising Freethinkers, Parenting Beyond Belief guy?

I've heard of him, yes. Yeah, so he's written and edited books about being a non-believing parent. He's about to come out with a book, I think it comes out in the fall, and it's about this exact question. It's called In Faith and in Doubt, and it's about relationships and marriages between believers and non-believers. And sometimes it's a situation where they both went into it knowing that they had different positions on this. And sometimes it's a situation like you described where they went into the marriage, both being religious. And I think maybe occasionally

both being atheist and one becoming religious, but it's usually the other way around. Both being religious and one person leaves religion. And there's, like say in my book in the coming out atheist book there's a lot of uh there's an entire chapter on this and it's sometimes it works out well and sometimes it doesn't you know it's it's again most of the time it works out well and even when it doesn't it's like okay you know it's i can't stay in a marriage where i'm not being honest about something that's really important to me. What Dale said is that there's a lot of things that help. One thing that helps is emphasizing the things that you do still have in common, emphasizing the values that you still share, emphasizing if you have children, the concern you both have for your children, the friends you have in common and so on.

Different people make different decisions about whether to keep going to church or other religious services. Some people feel comfortable with that. Some people don't. And that's something you have to decide for yourself. But what Dale says is that in marriages, the thing that seems to predict whether or not a marriage or a relationship is going to have a hard time in this situation is how important your atheism or your religion is to you. That in marriages where, you know, one of them is an atheist, one of them is a believer, but they don't care about it that much and there's other things that are really much more important to them, then it tends to work out.

Or if it doesn't work out, some other problem happens. Where one partner, their atheism or their religion is really important, but the other one, it's not that big a deal, then other factors seem to make more of a difference. If your atheism is really important to you, and your partner's belief is really important to them, that's where it can become very, very difficult. But again, it's not necessarily impossible. What seems to really help is, again, focusing on the things that you do still have in common, focusing on the values that you share, and sometimes emphasizing how important it was for you to be honest. And how, look, I get that this is hard for you, but I love you and I'm not willing to lie to you. I'm not willing to keep an important secret to you.

And that commitment to be truthful with you, that that's more important than, you know, whether or not, you know, one of us believes in God or not. So that kind of focus on the things that you still have in common can really help. Well, you collected, like I said, you collected a ton of stories. What was your coming out like? You know, it's funny. My coming out was relatively easy. I got it lucky. And sometimes people ask, so why did you write this book?

Well, I didn't write this book for myself. You know, I wrote this book because I saw a need for it in the community. My family are almost entirely nonbelievers. I fell into New Age religion in college and had to go through a process of leaving it. But it wasn't an issue for my family. I live in San Francisco, which is kind of famously not religious or not conventionally religious, certainly. And I did have some problem with some friends. And it surprised me because it's like in San Franciscoisco liberals san francisco who gives a shit uh but kind of interestingly sometimes liberal believers

have almost a harder time with atheism than more conventional ones because in liberal belief there's this big thing about we never criticize each other yeah you know this whole kind of ecumenical oh we all are seeing a part of the same god and you see god this way and i see god that way and isn't it a beautiful tapestry of faith and we think the tapestry is fiction yeah um and that's fine you know you can be wrong about that and you think i'm wrong and that's fine. But, you know, we're not going to say we're not going to lie about this. And I did have problems with religious friends and particularly when I started becoming more critical of religion. That became a problem for some people. That being said, it was really only a handful of people. And mostly, it's not been an issue for me. I got very, very lucky with that. All right. So I got one more question for you. And you may not have anything to say about this. But

so you just finished a book. Clearly, your mind is on this book. But do you have any plans, something percolating, something in the future that you're going to be doing? Oh, absolutely. I have a half a dozen books I'm working on in my head already. I'm not sure what's going to be next, so I'm not going to – this isn't a promise. But I'm working on a collection of my nonfiction sex writing. Last year I came up with my collection of sex fiction, i.e. porn. This year I think I'm going to do a collection of my essays and reviews and rantings and philosophical musings and advice and stuff about sex so I'm working on that I'm working on a

children's book I don't know if it's going to come to fruition but I'm working on a children's book that's kind of about cognitive biases and how the mind works it's about mistakes and sort of using that as the entry to you to epistemology for kids, although I'm probably not going to call it that. No, that's what we should definitely call it. It'll fly off the shelves, Greta. It'll fly off the shelves. I'm hoping, and this is more in the distance, but I'm hoping to – do you know Rebecca Hensler?

She does the Grief Beyond Belief. I haven't heard of her. No, I haven't heard of her. Oh, boy, you should get her on your show. There's this – Grief Beyond Belief is a support group for grieving nonbelievers. I haven't heard of her. and so that's in the works again you know tentatively yeah i always you know it's like i'm writing a lot about secular meditation and about meditation without the supernatural something i've been doing for about a year i'm hoping in a couple few years to write a book about that so i always have something percolating i'm like you know okay that book's done what's

next so yeah another thing in the in this book I wanted to mention too, there's a great section at the end. I mean just a ton of resources. This is really a useful guide for somebody who's coming out. You just have this ton of resources. I just did want to point out one typo. You missed Cognitive Dissonance Podcast in the back. Maybe it will come in on the second edition. I don't know.

But clearly there's a typo. Definitely. No, that was clearly a know. But clearly there's a typo. Definitely. No, that was clearly a mistake. Actually, it's hard. I mean, I was putting together this resource guide. There are so many resources now. There are so many blogs. There are so many podcasts.

There's so much out there. But, of course, I should absolutely not have admitted you. I don't know what I was thinking. I had a blackout too much wine while you were typing this out what she really has is a good editor that's what she really has I blame it on my publisher

it's like cognitive dissonance those guys are no good that's awesome well Greta we wanted to thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us today. We really enjoyed the book, and we look forward to all your future work. Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

It was a delight. So that wraps up this bonus show, our very first bonus show, Tom. We're not going to do any email. We're going to try to stick the email to our regular shows. So episode 151 will be releasing Monday as usual. But now we're doing two extra shows a month because we reached our goal of $350 on Patreon per episode. So we are releasing these bonus shows. These bonus shows will be available on Patreon

as probably a day early, and then they will also be available just for our regular listening audience. We're trying to decide whether it's Thursday or Friday is going to be our release date. We're not sure what day that's going to be yet, but we'll keep you posted on what that's going to be. So we want to thank, again, Greta Christina for coming on the show. She's wonderful. She's very funny. She wrote a great book called Coming Out Atheist, How to Do It, How to Help Each Other and Why. It's available on Amazon. It's available on Audible. It's available on iTunes. And it's a great book. Tom and I both read it. We thought it was wonderful. We think she's wonderful and we think you should buy her book. If you have anybody that knows, if you know anybody that's

going through this or you think somebody could benefit from this book like Tom said last week this would make a great gift for them it's one of those things that it's just got so much different resource information for coming out as an atheist it's just going to be a useful

guide for them and possibly for other people. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she was such a delight to talk to. We're grateful to have had her on the show. So that wraps it up for this week. We're going to leave you, as always, with the Skeptic's Creed. Credulity is not a virtue.

It's fortune cookie cutter, mommy issue, hypno-Babylon bullshit. Couched in scientician, double bubble, toil and trouble, pseudo-quasi and trouble pseudo quasi alternative acupunctuating pressurized stereogram pyramidal free energy healing water downward spiral brain dead pan sales pitch late night info docutainment Leo Pisces cancer cures detox reflex foot massage death and towers tarot cars psychic healing, crystal

balls, Bigfoot, Yeti, aliens, churches, mosques, and synagogues, temples, dragons, giant worms, Atlantis, dolphins, truthers, birthers, witches, wizards, vaccine nuts, shaman healers, evangelists, conspiracy, doublespeak, stigmata, nonsense. conspiracy, double-speak stigmata nonsense. Expose your sides. Thrust your hands. Bloody, evidential, conclusive. Doubt even this. The opinions and views expressed in this show are that of the hosts only. Our poorly formed and expressed notions do not represent those of our wives, employers, friends, families, or of the local Dairy Council. Thank you.