Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 310: Michael A. Wood Jr.

Episode Date: August 15, 2016

This episode we don’t cover any stories. Instead we talk for 90 minutes about law enforcement and the second amendment with Michael A. Wood Jr. And do a David Icke segment.

This episode of Cognitive Dissonance is brought to you by our patrons. You fucking rock. Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. hi everyone so uh we actually don't wind up mentioning who we're visiting with because Tom makes a joke and then we get off on a tangent. So I wanted to jump in before the show starts to mention that we're actually talking to this episode, Michael Wood Jr. He's a retired Baltimore police officer and a veteran of the Marine Corps. And he is a public activist that speaks out against police brutality. And we just had this great conversation, but I just wanted to make sure we mentioned who he was

so people aren't wondering who he is throughout the entire program. So here is an entire show, which is just an interview with Michael Wood Jr. And then at the end, there's a little bit of David Icke stuff. We recorded this before I went on vacation. I am actually recording this now on vacation. Uh, and then I'm going to put it together and, and so you guys will have a show on Monday, but, uh, but I just wanted to make sure that, uh, that you knew it was not a normal show. It's not a, it's not a regular fair. Uh, there's no news stories. Uh, we just do an interview for the entire show. We hope you enjoy it. Uh, we'll be back next week with a full show of, uh, random funny stories, uh, to talk about without further ado. Uh, here's Michael Wood Jr. recording live from glory hole studios in chicago he's already finished the first beer

this guy is moving jesus christ he's moving well hold on a second he's almost done he's i actually i actually don't know exactly how to introduce you properly me neither okay um so help me introduce you properly before before i start this because i don't want to say recording live from gloryhole studios we're joined by michael david smalley's totes good friend like so so i want to know actually i think that's perfect i want to know well. Actually, fuck it. No, I'm going to do it. No, fuck it. I don't give a shit.

I don't fucking care. You can fucking give your own qualifications. I'm going to fuck this thing right in the chicken. We already gave it up. We already gave it up. Recording live from Glory Hole Studios in Chicago, this is Cognitive Dissonance. Every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way. We bring critical thinking, skepticism, and irreverence to any topic that makes the news, makes it big, or makes us mad.

It's skeptical, it's political, and there is no welcome at this. This is episode 310 of Cognitive Distance, and we are joined today by the illustrious, the inimitable Michael, David Smalley's friend who strong-armed us on Twitter. The only way we're ever going to get a goddamn dogma debate is basically to blow his friends. That's it. That's it. We got a fucking full late fucking strangers. Not only just strangers, but strangers from Baltimore who almost certainly have social diseases.

I'm just saying. Anyway, Michael, glad to have you certainly have social diseases. I'm just saying. Anyway, Michael, glad to have you in studio. Welcome. Social diseases and all. I'm glad to find out that this is going to be much more of a happy experience than I. I'm real toothy, buddy. It's not that good. Is this really the right episode number, though?

I don't know. I didn't double check. I didn't double check. He's dropping the fucking hammer on this early. Fucking show up, drink our beer, eat some pizza, you know, fucking slam. All right, so why does Chicago suck? You're going to go into this big, long diatribe about traffic, so. It's not just traffic.

Okay. Who the fuck makes levels? Levels of what? Why does your city have levels? Levels of what? There's the upper level. Oh, upper, lower, lower. There's the lower level.

Lower, lower. And then you can't park on the top level. You of what? There's the upper level. Oh, upper level. There's the lower level. Lower macro fuck you up. And then you can't park on the top level. You have to go down to the lower level. Look. And if you miss the turn, it's 17 turns before you can get back to the correct turn. And then there's 14 pedestrians who are blocking you. Like, why the fuck are you coming down here? Like, guys, I just want to park the car.

I've driven around the city for about two and a half hours now. And then you miss the turn. You can't't get over so now you're 17 turns back around to the fuck and then you're like and then the gps is like upper lower it doesn't fucking know so you're driving all over the place it has taken me i've driven around the city for four hours having broken 20 miles per hour i went from nice to like just sitting there and being like, it's okay. It's okay. Don't yell at your wife and kid. Don't fucking freak out.

Everything will be fine. You don't have to go back. This is fine. Just keep fucking moving. Everything will be okay. And I just left Cleveland, who you talk shit about all the time. Because it's terrible. But I drove around the whole city at the speed limit with no traffic.

It's because there's no people. Basically, in Cleveland, you can just drive around yelling whole city at the speed limit with no traffic. That's because there's no people. Basically, in Cleveland, you can just drive around yelling, I'm the mayor! I'm the mayor! And that's actually how you become the mayor. That's it. You're in a city that nobody cares about. The people in Cleveland, all the roads just are one way out. There's one building in the center.

Every road is a spoke on that wheel leading out. Pretty much. I mean, you're comparing a city with 390,000 people. I just want to point out the reason why we have a lower level is so we can put our homeless somewhere. That's why we need it. That's a kindness.

It's a kindness for them. They don't have a lot of... When you get that old, it's hard to get a tan. And so we want to make sure that we keep our chud underground. That's the goal. You can't afford sunscreen. No, we're not going to pay for that. I mean, they're homeless, man. These are fucking luxuries.

Who pays for that? They're going to get me in trouble. I should just be this... taking the high road all the time. Just don't tell anybody about it. Just don't mention it. Nobody's going to hear it. We're not going to say your last name.

Your name's Mike. David's friend. We're just going to... Mike's David's friend. So Mike's David's friend. I heard you on Rogan. We heard you on Joe Rogan's show. And one of the things that you said

was that you put in your name through your resume in the pile when chicago top cop came out when when they when they needed a new one when they fired the last guy who wasn't doing a terrible job actually he wasn't doing it he wasn't doing that bad okay clearly a disconnect clearly a disconnect i'll point to the reason why i think that is because our murders are like doubled this year in to previous years. Hold on. When that's your bar, it's like, well, the other guy, the murders were only super high.

No, they're super duper high. They're super extra high. Yeah, the murders this year are absolutely – they're through the roof. It's been hot out, though, to be fair. It's been really bad. But you threw your resume in, right? Now, clearly you had a vision. What's your vision for Chicago?

Your first year on the job, what do you do to change what's going on in Chicago? We have fucking police black sites. We have Laquan McDonald getting gunned down in Chicago streets. We have harassment and all kinds of stuff that happens with the Chicago Police Department constantly. What do you do your first year? See, so hold on a second because those are the downsides. The upside is the murder rate continues to climb sure and sometimes they ride horses i'm actually yeah that's the upside yeah so well okay so you know how guys there's something

no we're trying to be serious though i mean for a moment yeah so you you hear now about how you have police accountability civilian police accountability boards that want to review incidents, right? So my fundamental philosophy is that you take that board and instead of it being this subset to the side, it actually take that idea, this is simplified, and just move it all the way to the top. So the police, I would be a CEO, like a board to CEO relationship. So what I would fundamentally be doing is the first time ever asking you what you want your police department to do. Because throughout the history of America, police departments have always told you what they're going to do and how they're going to solve crime. want to do fundamentally is listen so i have a lot of ideas and a lot of things like the first and foremost you have to end the drug war that's the number one killer that's doing all this because it creates an occupying army and when you're occupied like think about at home so wherever you are in america especially if you're in some podunk place you want to have your gun and you're afraid that the muslims are going to come blow you up over in your theater that nobody gives two shits about so i'm a kankakee

and i'm worried fucking you're kidding me no the fucking terrorists can't spell kankakee so if you're that person and you were sitting there and a bunch of black muslims were in your neighborhood why do they got to be black muslims because that? Because that's what they fear. Okay. So, all right. They're black gay Muslims. They're so confused. And they're in your neighborhood coming in and then over criminalization, your entire population, murdering your children, throwing them into prison, taking fathers away from children. What would your response be? You would exercise those second amendment rights and say, fuck you.

I'm taking my neighborhood back. And so that is literally what we are doing in the south side of Chicago right now, and that must end. So I got a question, though, because weren't there attempts to do something sort of similar with programs like Ceasefire and other programs that attempt to bring community and policing together? I know it's a little different, but those were, I thought, an attempt to bridge that gap. And I also know that Ceasefire has since been defunded, probably because I think it was successful, if I'm not mistaken. So I think that's why.

Programs like Ceasefire are fine. They're one of those tiny facets. But they're fundamentally flawed in the idea that the police and the community have to come together in the middle. That's a false paradigm. The police must come to the community. The community bears no responsibility to go to the police. The police are the one that serve.

It's not we have some mutual thing where we agree somewhere in the middle, like in politics, that, you know, okay, you can kill some of us, but not all of us. So that idea is completely flawed. So it's never been done right. What I am scientifically is a business manager, and I'm trying to put those principles over into policing so you have metrics that reflect that. Right now, police are measured by how many people they arrest, not actually whether they have convictions. They're not focused on what crimes they solve.

They're focused on what looks good for them to get to the next level. So you have to change all the fundamental metrics so that they are incentivized just by human nature to do those things that you want them to be. And I'm not going to dare define them because this is your city, and I will make sure the police department operates as you want them to. So would they be accountable to the citizens in the sense that if there was a misconduct, some sort of misconduct? It's your agency. Okay. That's the fundamental difference. Right, right, right. Right now, policing is a tool of an oligarchy. It is a tool of a mayor and a city council, mainly the mayor. And it's a tool for them to achieve political gain because they have no vested interest in your city. They just want to get to the next level up. Well, hold on a second.

Hold on a second. I'm going to push back on that. That seems almost hopelessly cynical. And maybe that's borne out by the data, but that seems so cynical. Do you not think that any mayor or any city council people that they get into this with anything approaching to to to make things better or to have some real you know hallmarks of change i mean that's so cynical do you know any mayors do you know any mayors that have given up their power over policing and returned it to the people well no no i don't i don't know they're disingenuous you think so yeah or maybe it just

it's just it's just a paradigm shift that hasn't occurred to them. So say I was – that's a good point, that it wasn't a shift they thought of, and that's fine. But then you're relying on a person. So we can have a great president or a great mayor come in and do wonderful things, but it's only for their term. I'm worried about locking things in so that it doesn't matter who's in charge. No, I like your idea. I'm just pushing back on the cynical nature of like, hey, this so they can get ahead fuck everybody quash them underfoot i'm not sure if there was evidence to the contrary yeah i would lean to you i think your point is valid but i have no evidence of that okay that's fair so would you think that what while you were

chief of police something like laquan mcdonald could happen of course okay what would you what would your reaction if, let's say, it's six months in and another kid is walking away from police officers with a knife in his hand and gets shot, what is it, 14 times? You have to be honest. So you have to say, like, look, this is obviously a tragedy. We obviously fucked up.

And we obviously have to fix this and ensure that it never happens again. And we're going to give every bit of evidence for everybody to see to make sure you hold me accountable for not fucking this up again. So body cameras is a thing that you're for, for sure? If you looked at the body cameras, the police story looked fine. But then come to find out there was a camera somewhere else and that different angle proved that everything the cops said was a complete lie. So they're just a picture from that limited window. Yeah, okay. All right.

That's fair. So I want to talk a little bit about – I want to shift gears a little bit. about, I want to shift gears a little bit. So recently in Dallas, there was five police officers shot from the parking garage down there. A person shot them and then they sent in what we're calling

the Boomba. It is a robot explosive device that explodinates the guy who's the person. Explodinates? That's not a fucking word. I just made it up. That's a technical demolitions expert.

You don't know because you're not on the demo team, but Explodinates is what they decided to do. There was an O-351 assaultman and trained in demolitions in the Marine Corps. I don't know what any of that means, so I'm going to just assume he's lying. That seems like what we do. So they blew this fucking dude up.

What do you think about them blowing that guy? Now, we got some pushback. We got some pushback. We did. We got a lot of pushback. And all we did was say. I feel weird about it. I feel real weird about them blowing that guy up.

I feel real weird about it. Now, I'm actually a little farther than Tom. When they said, and this is their story, right? We don't know what was said. All we are hearing is what the police tell us. And the police are saying the dude said he had bombs. The dude said he had explosive devices planted and he was going to blow them up. We had to act in order to prevent more damage to more human life.

And it was not just going to be police officers. If it's an explosive device, explosive device can't differentiate between a fucking cop and not a cop. It will blow up some shit and fuck some shit up. So they blew them up. They killed them with this explosive device. And Tom and I both feel super weird about it. We sort of likened it to lighting a house on fire if there was a fugitive inside. What do you think about the boom?

But what's your take on that? Well, let's remember that they also bombed a house in Philadelphia. Wait, tell me about that. Yeah, I want to hear about this. The move movement in like 67 or something like that. Look it up. The move bombing in Philadelphia. And they literally from a helicopter dropped a bomb.

Are you fucking kidding me? What is this? Syria? What the fuck? Because it was Black Panthers. No shit. Oh my God. So this isn't the...

I know this is the first time you used a robot. That's not like pretend it's the first time that policing have used a bomb on somebody. But since – I actually thought it was. So I'll put my hand up there and be like, I did not know that we bombed our citizens. I didn't know that we threw like a bomb at somebody. Yeah, you're not going to learn about that in school because that was a black tragedy. Is that the only experience – the only instance, other instance you know of explosions being explosions being used yeah that's the only one i know but i gotta be honest so like

i i know your audience is much more receptive to this and i'm not laid back on a lot of things but i i gotta tell you like when i first heard it i was like that was fucking badass so we could talk about what the problems were but i I think if it's done – I don't want to demonize that idea because in a specific circumstance, I think that could be applicable. In this one, it's super questionable. But OK, we don't give the police fragmentation grenades, right? Like the police don't have have they have like flashbang grenades and what have you and they have tear gas and they have other options but and we have militarized our police to the point of near absurdity and yet we have stopped short of

things like fragmentation grenades and you know rpgs or yeah right because there there's like that's kind of leveling shit up like that's that's part of the part of the issue i have a lot of issues with the boom actually but but part of the issue is like when we start talking about the use of explosive ordinance against civilian life like these are our citizens regardless of how awful of a citizen they are there there's like there's a leveling up of the militarization of the police and the violence escalation that's there that I'm just deeply, deeply uncomfortable with. And I can't express it other than in terms of being deeply uncomfortable with it. Exactly, yeah. But I am, and I'm curious what your thoughts are about something like that, about the militarization, about the leveling up of violence.

Well, the militarization is an obvious problem, but I think we shouldn't be too surprised by it. It's our culture. So policing isn't about, like we said earlier, figuring out why did that kid go shoot somebody? It's about finding the bigger force. So this is the cycle we're on. We know this is going to continue. So as long as nothing happens, happens yeah so you had the move bombing in philadelphia that we were talking about where you think oh well we don't have an rpg well they

dropped the fucking bomb out of a helicopter on a townhouse like an rpg which is probably lesser than dropping a bomb out of a fucking where would they even get it that's the other thing like i didn't even know they had it like did they have to scrounge around like who's got bombs and what eod is always going to have that because you want to explode in place oh i see gotcha yeah they blow up they blow up shit to blow it up right no no yeah and that's what they use in this case too i think they just yeah yeah that was a weird way of putting it yeah they exploded in place a threat, but I never would have worded it that way. Like, so my problem is, is like, if they say he has a bomb and he could have bombed somebody, this is what we're doing right now is we're taking threats as being real imminent threats that they're actually substantial.

So they'll think, oh, well, I thought I saw a gun. And for instance, in Afghanistan, a Marine would need to be shot at or see an actual gun that's pointed at them to even do anything. But legally in America, all you have to do is be afraid and the cop can do whatever they want. So all they need is fear. And if you don't interrupt that cycle, then this is what's going to happen. Because if we have a Second that cycle, then this is what's going to happen because if we have a Second Amendment and people are able to have equipment equal to the military

or the government, because that's what it's for, so you need equipment that's at least equal, well, that cycle now is just going to keep going. So the police get more equipment, well, the citizens get more equipment, the peace get more equipment, and citizens get more equipment, and you're just going down in a logical cycle. So we shouldn't be surprised.

Let me ask you a question about something you said a moment ago. I'll take you back half a step. You said something about the police or policing rather is not about finding out why people – why did somebody commit this crime? It's about arresting people. That's the goal of the police. Arresting people, that's the goal of the police. Is it realistic to have a police force that is also a sociology force, right? Because that's what you're talking about. You're talking about sociological studies about why people behave in patterns the way that they do.

This is an examination of human nature, group behavior, things along those lines. Is that the job of policing? Should that be the job of policing should that be the job of policing and do we need to have differentiation between those sort of epidemiological studies about why people do what they do and in large groups versus people who go out and tase the fuck out of somebody bro like do we need both we do need both um one of the things that i want to do like people think i'm some soft lefty. I think that.

You seem like a, as you sit in front of me right now. I want to say emphasis on the soft. Right. Yeah. So it's like, look, there comes a time where you need a shit kicker, right? I've been that guy my whole life. I love being that guy.

It's a good thrill. It's fun. Say it. Because you were going to say it. Fucking fun. It's fun. It's fun. All right, because you were going to say it. It's fucking fun. It's fun. It's fun. All right. But the problem is –

This is the tape, okay, guys, that you're going to try to go after. I'm cut here. Right. Okay? Cut right here. Mike says he likes beating people up. Story it now. That side of me, which I'll be honest about, that is a side of me that aggressive alpha male side should only be

used in those particular circumstances they're not to be used against you they're to be used when there is a shooting going on or when you need to serve a murder warrant but they're not for fucking traffic warrants and that's what we're doing now is we're taking that high escalation and bringing it down to the low. And when it comes to sociological, I'm not asking the officer to understand what they're doing. What I'm asking is that the detective, instead of investigating exactly what the – all right, so if you're a drug cop and you go out and you bust a dealer, right, and he's selling – you catch him selling, you know, 50 pills and he's dealing heroin all day long. What you do is you figure out the investigation is about figuring out the

details of the crime. But the investigation should be about figuring out the details of the crime and convicting a person for the law. But more importantly, about why that person is in that situation, what variables led up to this situation becoming so that we can do things to prevent it from happening to begin with. And I appreciate that idea. I just, from a practical perspective, I'm curious about how something like that would be, in your mind, implemented. So I'm a cop. I go out.

There's this guy. He's selling fucking heroin and pills and all this shit. You grab him. You beat the shit out of him a little bit because I know you. You beat the shit out of him a little bit. And he didn't even do shit out of him and he didn't even do anything either he's like yeah he was just fucking standing there black you put the pills in his pocket anyway so you beat him up you throw him in jail his kids are wailing his wife is crying you're fucking monster you put that guy in jail and then and then it's handed off this is how and then what happens it's

handed off and then we say okay there's this this guy. Let's try to understand what happened here and fix these larger social problems. That's not just the police. Like we're talking about major infrastructure changes to the way that we think about not just policing but the way that we think about governing ourselves. Yeah, I mean our government would have to care for people and I don't know that that's going to work. Yeah, well, because we have decided collectively. I know you're laughing. We have decided collectively that we don't care like like that's why we have it's almost like why do we have two political parties well one side has decided fuck off everybody else and the other

side's like maybe we should feed them i don't know you know so and that's obviously gross and horrifying oversimplification but still we're having real debates about whether or not we should take care of other people like that's a real thing so i i'm curious how you would see something like that implemented because that's not just the that's not that's not a reimagination of the police force that's a reimagination of the entire system of government civilian government disagree completely good so um i think fundamentally our psychology is rooted in our tribal mentality that comes from being a bunch of apes wandering around, that we only associate ourselves with about 150 people. So our problem is we see everybody beyond that 150 as thems. Sure. we have the civilian review board in charge of the agency, then you won't see his son

as being a them, and you won't make laws and procedures and policies that would treat his son that way. But the police don't make the laws. Right. They love to say that. They love to say, we don't make the laws. We just enforce them. But that's coincidental that you never give any of your friends any tickets or whatever.

But that's selective enforcement, though. They can judiciously decide which ones they want. They can legally, and that's the point, is we do have discretion. That is true, right? We have complete discretion to exercise any law. So if a sheriff says he doesn't want to go and arrest people for having weed in their pocket. So? I mean, Colorado did that as a state. They told the federal government, fuck you.

We're not doing it. We can do that at every single level. It's just that it's easy to see some poor black kid on the south side as being a them. But if you were writing a law that was going to be universally applied, you stop you would see cecil's sign as being one of you and as long as those laws were applied to that kid in the south side everything would be fine what what changed your mind about all this because clearly like like you're you're a guy who likes to like punch people in the face a lot and like you know you you were saying earlier that you're really you're you you love the excitement of being i have no sustained uses of force okay just

let me just say use of force is so fast and violent also have to sustain also that person is still unconscious but you know what if you're still unconscious that long you're dead like that just that's what that's actually called dead but you were saying that you really did enjoy the excitement of being on the police you enjoyed it right I still do and you also said that you were a republican before you were a republican until very recently

can't you just beat somebody up and not be a republican what changed no what changed your mind was there a moment like a one blinding flash Saul fell off his horse and immediately blabed in Jesus, or was it something else? There was an emotional one. But educationally, I did a bachelor's degree in criminal justice.

And in that, they're still pushing all these ideas, like evidence-based policing policing where you look at who's been arrested and then you profile and look at those people but i know that i'm just targeting those people that's what we do that's how that cycle works right you're just like wait a minute if all we're doing that's amazing that's the most circular fucking logic ever here guys here's the evidence first of all what we're gonna do is we're gonna target poor black people then we're gonna look at how many poor black people we've arrested yeah and then target more poor black people okay that's literally the police that's amazing so and this has been that's amazing this has been from the beginning so american policing started as slave catching and protecting property.

And you'll still see that now when Baltimore had an uprising, everyone is bitching about the CVS burning. So everyone's worried about property, but they're not worried about Freddie Gray's death. Because this evolution has just continued, the police still are an organization that protects property and rich people's things at the expense of people like Freddie Gray. And there's no reason to believe that this has stopped. And we still see the evidence of it. And we've never done anything different from that. I was a shift commander in the Eastern District. And this is why, I mean, I feel terrible about it. But I have those ideas in my head.

And I said, I would yell people like to stop doing bullshit enforcement right it's like and bullshit enforcement is what they actually saw right what do you mean explain bullshit so like say you if i were to drive past an officer in west baltimore and i saw he had a pretty little white girl pulled over and was like checking her car i've been like get the fuck back go down there and let this girl go right but statistically she's just as likely to have those drugs on her as that black kid is so what i said i'm gonna pull over pretty white girls i'm just saying i'm joining the force and here it comes. It's the only way they'll talk to you. I fucking – I need all the help I can get.

The stun gun is my fucking – it's my first move. You're like – you're right on it roofing on the side. This is the biggest baton I ever carried. Oh, that's amazing. Snap this out. It gets hard like that. I think we're making a Marine a little uncomfortable. That's awesome.

He's blushing. That's something. All right. He's trying to get on track. We've got a serious person. Which was my concern when I walked through the door cut that shit out

alright so if that's the policing model and I told my officers look who's doing the crime out there black males between the ages of 16 and 24 we know this and what do we know this off of who do we arrest and who's in jail and who has committed these crimes

but we set the stage because that's who we look at and if we base that opinion based on who we look at it doesn't matter what we were looking at that's who we would keep going so like these ideas of evidence-led policing they're throughout criminology and people think these things are legitimate but their ideology is no different than religion and they they're based on no facts okay so you're saying that the evidence – I'm going to summarize here. The evidence that we created is the trick. Right. No, no. I got you. I got you. I got you. So you're saying that the evidence that's used in evidence-based policing is skewed

because it uses kind of a circular logic. So how do you come to that conclusion, right? So these criminologists – I'm going to assume the best out of some people just for the sake of argument. I imagine that there are people who are statisticians and criminologists and they are using what they think is the best set of data points that they can to come up with these ideas. You're coming up with a totally different set of ideas and saying they're using bad evidence. Their evidence is circular. How do you arrive at that conclusion in a scientific or quasi-scientific fashion that draws you to such a different worldview than what's being espoused.

How do I say that without being an arrogant motherfucker? Be an arrogant motherfucker. I'm that guy all the time. It's gotten me this far. I'm not a fucking robot. Sure. I think for myself. And I saw what I was doing.

So your experience. This was my life. I was a major case narcotics detective. And maybe the first time I started realizing what we were doing and seeing the us versus them is I would spend 16, 17, 18 hours in a van or in a vacant watching the same group of drug dealers. But to be there, I had to be there earlier than them and stay later than them so I could get in and out with anybody seeing me. And they don't do banker's hours. Right. Well, I mean, they kind of do.

Are they kind of 9 to 5? Are they really? They're earlier than 9 seeing me. And they don't do banker's hours. Right. Well, I mean, they kind of do. Are they kind of 9 to 5? Are they really? They're earlier than 9 to 5. They're like 6 to 2. Really? Yeah, drug dealing is done in the morning. Who the fuck is getting up at 5.30 to get high? So crime is done in the evening to retaliate against some of the things that happened in

the morning during the drug dealing. Fucking early bird, man. Right. Hey, a drug dealer works fucking hard and they probably have the most dangerous job in the entire world so like that's to spell the notion that these motherfuckers are lazy they're not lazy i can't think of a job that's more difficult than being a drug dealer in the hood so as a major case narcotics detective being there early what i saw was the complete picture um picture. I saw the mom coming out and going to

work. I saw that the dealer would wait until his little brother got on the bus before he would open up shop. And he would open up shop and he would sell things. But then he'd shut down shop if a kid came down. Or he'd go get his brother, bring his brother in, take care of him, and then come back out and open the shop. And then maybe after the shop got shut down and the parents got back home, they would do a cookout. And I would hear everything. I would smell the food and I would hear the sounds. And it was just immediately like, I don't belong here.

I'm an enemy. I understand why this is taking place. These aren't evil people. and what my job here is is to imprison them and take them off so so my job is this kid that took his his little brother to the bus stop every day and fed him my job is to make sure that that little kid has nobody to take him to that bus stop anymore and i don't know i started to fall from that i think and and then we all bitch about our bosses, right? Like, who is this idiot? So I wanted to do better than them. I thought it was hypocrisy if I bitched about my boss, but didn't seek to attain his position and do better.

So I tried to learn. And when I realized there was no management skill, I went and started getting a master's and learning about management. And you realize that all the metrics and all the sentences are all fucked up. And you're like, this is all wrong so what happens and then my emotional break happened and that was the killing of tamir rice and when i watched that video which still rings in my head of tamir rice being murdered people don't know that is to talk about it real quick so tamir rice was a 12 year old 12 year old. Just let me think about that. And he's shooting a BB gun in a playground. A playground where a boy should be,

where a child should be safe, right? They go to a playground. And this was a couple years ago, right? Sure, it's about two years ago, maybe a year and a half. And he's out there playing with a BB gun. Somebody calls and says, there's a kid with a BB gun.

And the cops just roll up while the bb gun is still in his pocket yep and they fucking murder him and that's like i understand shit happens in in life but then the police department and the mayor and the state's attorney all proceed to say everything was fine and cover this up in a situation that has no justification whatsoever i was like fuck fuck like i don't know how to deal with this my daughter was like 11 at the time maybe 10 and i'm picturing her like in this situation what the fuck like i don't i can't wrap my head around this and then freddie gray was killed and it was my department and my agency and all my friends and people that I knew saying the same thing, that it was okay to put a grown man in a box for no fucking reason and pull him out dead and fuck it. No one's responsible.

And I was like, that's it. I'm done. I'm done. Like, whatever allegiance I had to you motherfuckers, it's over. I'm done. I'm done. Like whatever allegiance I had to you motherfuckers, it's over. We're going to admit everything and we're going to put everything out there that we possibly can because if we don't fix this, we are the bad guys. If we're to protect and we're to serve and we're to be serving our constitution, this is what we should – we should be focused on protecting Tamir and make sure something like Tamir never fucking happens again, not trying to find some way to justify it. Yeah, we were talking about that video just before to justify it. We were talking about that video before you got here.

That is a video that what surprised me most about that is that it didn't cause more controversy. It felt really flat. It felt like there wasn't a lot of controversy about it at all. It didn't feel like, now I'm not where he was. I think it was Ohio where he was

killed? It was in Cleveland. That's one of the reasons I just left cleveland is i went to cuddle park where he was killed and i wanted to see it myself and if there were a hundred options they did the one option that led to killing tamir and it had to be fucking just i i don't i don't i can't possibly imagine what was going through their heads but there is much cover, so much concealment that you could have handled that situation safely and in some other manner. After they killed him, they didn't give him any CPR. His sister came over crying trying to help him. They put her in handcuffs and put her in the back of the car while she sat there and watched her fucking brother bleed out while the cops didn't do a fucking thing. And like I was was i'm still

obviously filled with fucking rage and well and i have to fucking fix that yeah well and when you watch that video i've watched that video and and you watch it you put a timer to that video it's like a one and a half seconds 1.7 seconds yeah from the time that they pull up to the time that they shoot that kid there was no there was no opportunity they didn't give that kid he's a kid or he's a legally possibly legally carrying adult right that's your only scenarios they say he looks too old well then you don't know that that gun's illegal right well he's 12 then what the fuck are you doing it was unbelievable they roll up and just boom they just they just fucking shoot that dude and it's like like there's fucking 100 other options.

And I'm not a cop. Literally. If you go there, there's 100 other options. That was nuts. That shit was nuts. But it didn't elicit a lot of response. And I was very surprised by that. It was lukewarm at best.

We're reserved to it. We've accepted it. Because it's not – like the bottom line is if it was my pretty little white girl daughter in Shrewsbury, Pennsylvania that was killed, everybody would fucking care. And that's just unacceptable. We're talking about – you just mentioned illegally carrying. He's either illegally carrying or he was a kid, right? Those are the two options. Let's talk a little bit about legally carrying here because we did a concealed carry class tom and i just recently a couple weeks ago we went into this

concealed carry class now the state mandates 16 hours worth of training for everybody who wants to get a concealed carry license in illinois the class at best was five and a half hours long that's at best um it was basically the nra safety class point the fucking gun to the ground i mean it was really just point the gun at the ground. That was – I think what I learned the most was make sure you're not pointing the gun at other people, which I think I knew already. The explodey end, don't point it towards something you want. Don't point it at something. Not to have a hole in it.

And then the next day, they took us to the range and we thought we were going to have eight hours of range time because it was split up into two days. And we thought, well, at least he's going to teach us some things today because what we learned yesterday was just, you know, making sure the gun didn't shoot anybody. Yeah. We played with flashlights. Yeah. We played with a laser pointer flashlights. And so here we are the next day and we go in and the guy's like, okay, why don't you

put a few rounds through your gun point pointed at this little silhouette. I shot a few times and I admittedly, this is my third time shooting the gun. I didn't, I just bought it very recently and I didn't feel I was that great with it, but he's like, oh, you're doing really well. Why don't you just try to take the test? So I immediately took the test. I scored a hundred percent on the test and then I was it. That was it. 30 minutes of range time. And now in two months I will get a license in the mail. This, this will come in the mail. I will have a concealed carry license in Illinois and I will be able to carry a loaded firearm everywhere in the state, except for

prohibited places. And I don't feel, one, I don't feel safe myself carrying because I didn't learn anything. But then secondly, I also don't feel any safer knowing all the other yokels that were in the class. I'm actually terrified of them too. What do you think about concealed carry? And what do you think, if you think concealed think concealed carries the thing what kind of level of training should people have what's really interesting is that you're complaining about that but so my wife has a concealed permit from pennsylvania right and it involved going to the sheriff's office having their picture taken signing a document coming, coming back on Monday and picking up the carry permit.

No shit. We got an email from a dude in Idaho. It's like step one, buy a gun. Step two, conceal it. Like that's it. That's it. You could put it in your belt at the place that you just bought it. To be entirely fair though, it's Idaho and you could spin around shooting it in a circle

and hit anybody. Right? Oh, that potato has a hole in it it's so obvious it's a terrible joke it was obviously quick quick correction though you wouldn't hit quick correction though tom you wouldn't hit anybody that mattered that's i bet i could shoot a bullet over these mountains anyway so so clearly concealed carry and we heard about pennsylvania too People had sent us messages and said, in Pennsylvania you should see it. All you need is a thing.

What do you think about concealed carry training and that sort of thing? So my ultimate problem is, for one, you're talking about proficiency. Proficiency doesn't have anything to do with your ability to handle a weapon in a high intense environment. So I don't know. They don't even matter. My problem is if people have guns whether it's concealed or it's open you think you're concealed you're not fucking

concealed i can tell you have a weapon i've been trained to know you have a weapon and you think you're cool with your with your glock square sticking out of the side of your pants well when i see that square i know it's a gun and my problem is there is that anybody can learn that and that means i can take that gun at any point in time if i want to rock i and i said that on rogan and people were like oh bullshit so i was like all right so i took a picture that i put on on twitter because there was a an uh off-duty cop well i'm assuming he's a cop because he has a stupid the shirt, kind of announcing it. I'm getting that shirt that says, I am a cop. They do things that pretty much say that in all actuality.

And so I could see the outline of his gun. So I sit there and I just took a fucking picture of him. He was unaware I was taking a picture. And he was like, so you think I can't get this gun? This motherfucker doesn't even know I'm standing next to him taking a picture of his gun hanging out? Right. Right. And it was concealed. It's just right you can see it so

you he was a danger having that gun there i need people to understand that i didn't need to have a gun to rob home depot that day an off-duty cop brought it for me so that's my problem with concealed weapons so do you think that there's any amount of training that anybody can have to be safe with a gun in the environment? I'm getting super worried about this in reality because I think I'm getting to the point where I think you have to operate without fear to be able to handle a weapon properly in a high intense environment. And the concern is I think fear might be DNA related.

And the ability to, you might be born with the ability to not be fearful in those moments, which would mean that cops would have some genetic predisposition that you would be looking for. So it can't be, you don't feel like it's a training issue necessarily.

Yeah. I think the biggest issue, you can train anybody to do anything. The problem is when the shit hits the fan. And what to do anything the problem is when the shit hits the fan and what happens how do people react when the shit is a fan everybody thinks they know how they were going to react and they're fucking full of shit no i know i know i know too i know i know too i know with a dead certainty i'm going to run as fast as i can away from the danger that would be your best bet of surviving if i can if i can i will throw the gun in the general direction of the bad guy and

hope it hits him yeah as i'm running because i will throw it backwards yeah i will throw i'll be like it sucks i gotta go yeah yeah i am no threat to you so i started to realize i went to marine court 17 and i started to realize that there i wasn't afraid either and so i just wasn't afraid period nobody trained me to not be afraid. And I really think that that's why I don't have those use of force complaints. That's why I didn't shoot anybody. It's because I was never afraid of the streets at any point in time. And that's not a decision I can consciously make.

It's probably that I'm like slightly autistic and can't feel my emotional range fully. So, okay. All right. Hold on. Hold on. It's probably that I'm like slightly autistic and can't feel my emotional range fully. So – So, okay. All right. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

I like to summarize things because I think sometimes you really encapsulate. Yeah, yeah. So the best cops, Rain Man. Yeah. That's it. That's it. How many arrests? 122 arrests.

122 arrests. Is he driving the car? I'm a very good driver. I'm a very good police driver'm a very good i'm a very good police driver very good high-speed chaser he would remember everything for the report absolutely it would be detailed as fuck would take a really long time to fill it out but it'd be detailed as fuck and he'd be courteous to everybody this uniform is so well pressed look at that it got a kmartmart. So the people who haven't heard you on Rogan, one of the things that you said on Rogan

that I thought was really pretty insightful was talking about guns and us, the amount of guns that we have in this country and how if we were going to institute any kind of gun control, the first measure that you said you would institute is you would shut down all the manufacturers of guns. How does that work guns how does that

work and what does that do for uh for gun control in our country well i mean really all somebody has to do is say no you can't manufacture guns in the united states anymore it's really really easy as a president can make the decision and just write an executive order and it'd be done you can't make guns in the usa anymore um like so the reason i come to that is i'm i know i know i know i'm a lefty blah blah sure yeah but the show is called cognitive dissonance so you can have a little i'm a i'm a i'm a scientist and i'm looking for managerial issues of incentives and disincentives how we stop things so what do we everybody's always complaining so the guns saturate all right yeah the guns do saturate but don't continue the saturation so we have to stop doing things that are harmful that we know are harmful even if we can't agree on how we're going

to solve them let's just fucking hit the brakes just like the drug war like i i don't know what legalization should be i don't know how you want to do it. But we have to fucking stop locking people up for it. I can tell you that much. So it's just a matter of hitting the brakes. And so if you say, all right, so if we cut down supply, then what happens? Demand goes up. And what happens when demand goes up? Cost goes up and if cost goes up well we're going to keep the guns in the hands of the rich because even a drug dealer once that gun is worth two thousand dollars fuck selling guns i mean sucks found drugs i can sell these fucking guns to rich people that's exactly what we said we're talking about this yeah so then like yeah you can have this argument about yeah then only the rich people will have guns okay so the rich people have guns for the next 200 years 100 years but they're gonna they have a lifespan you can take care of them and they'll last a long time but if we don't want to confess i'm not here to confiscate your fucking guns i'm not advocating

to confiscate your guns i'm just advocating to stop being dumb and saturating our world with guns is fucking dumb that's why guns are killed that's why cops are killing people cops kill people because they're afraid they have guns not because they're afraid they have a big dick. So if we stop that fear, then we stop the fucking cycle of everyone being a fucking afraid of everything. Well, the amount of

police that kill civilians in our country is through the fucking roof in comparison to other countries. Every other country by a wide margin. By a wide, wide margin. And very recently, they just started keeping numbers for this, right? No, no, no, no, no.

They never kept numbers. It's not FBI or anything else. It's the telegraph. The Guardian started it. Yeah, and then other papers are now keeping track of how many there are. There's also some websites out there that are starting to keep track of these numbers, but these were not numbers that people decided to keep. And the amount of – we're talking 1,000, 1,000, and it's against like 25 in other places. When we looked at like Britain.

Britain had two. It was like there's a couple of them. When you look at Japan, it's like there's none. When was the last time Japan ever shot and killed somebody? Right. But what that says is that this is not a human nature issue, right? This is a cultural issue. And culture of guns.

That's what I mean. There was recently a mass murder in Japan, though. A stabbing murder. But who did they stab? Disabled people. You're like, they killed 17 disabled people. That guy is obviously a complete asshole, but let's be real. He killed 17 or injured 17 disabled people with a knife.

And so that was one thing. Yeah, I mean, that may happen, but that's still 17 is their number. Right, and it's been a long time since the last major. But that's okay. I mean, that happens. If we had an argument about, oh, look, America has 200 knife deaths a year. Okay, we got 30 fucking some thousand gun deaths. I'm way more comfortable with a thousand knife deaths.

And I'm way more comfortable with any of our ability to stop a knife death than I am... Let's be honest. If we're all here in this room, i have a knife you guys are one of you is going to survive at least right now i have a gun if i have a gun you're throwing you at him okay that's that's all i'm gonna do if i was armed right now both of you would be in a less safe position that's neither one of you could honestly do shit about it so is that the world we want to live in because well what about hold on a minute what about if so if you're armed but then in response i get a much larger gun and then cecil gets a

larger gun but then you know that that's going to happen so you actually bring a successively larger series of guns that's actually what we're doing then i'm gonna get a bomb and i'm gonna bring in a robot i'm gonna blow your fucking ass up fucking boomba it's it's like the guy in our concealed carry class and your fucking ass up. It's like the guy in our concealed carry class. And I'm bringing this around. It's like the guy in our concealed carry class. He's so afraid, right? A gun, and this was my pushback when we first started talking about maybe doing the concealed carry. A gun is a fear-related item, right?

You don't carry a gun because you're not scared. You have a gun on your hip walking around outside as a regular citizen because you're scared it's a concession to your fear guns make little men feel big that's that's their fucking that's their thing that they do out on the street in a country like america it's by and large quite safe to walk through there was a dude in our concealed carry class who wanted to know he's like how many guns can i carry on myself right can i have guns this dude wanted to be the fucking punisher no shit he wanted like yeah it's it's like fucking the matrix we're gonna need more guns fucking closets of guns everywhere that he went because he thinks he's living in a world that is not that is not indicative of the level of violence that we're actually presented

with on a day-to-day basis right on a day-to-day basis, right? On a day-to-day basis, most of us walking around, I've gone 38 years, I've never needed a gun. 38 years of my life, a gun would have not fixed any problem that I've ever encountered. It wouldn't have made anything that I've ever done any better. It only could have made things worse. You know, there's been times where, you know, I remember you and I, when we were teenagers and I got in fist fights, you got in fist fights, like, can you imagine getting in a fight and getting in a fight and you're rolling around and some dude's got a gun? Like now it's a totally different ballgame, right? That gun is not indicative of the level of violence most of us will ever experience in our lives. All it's going to do is escalate that shit.

Totally. And let me tell you my breakdown when I realized I stopped carrying a gun because I would bitch about it because it's annoying. I don't know why anybody wants to carry one. It's fucking heavy and it's on your side you got to wear certain clothes and make sure it hides but i what i realized was i'm carrying this gun because society has decided that i have some fucking responsibility to shoot that guy before he shoots you and that's bullshit like that's not fundamentally logical that I'm going around carrying this fucking gun because we have so many guns that I feel some moral responsibility to carry this goddamn thing so that if somebody decides that he wants to be the dude that has 18 guns on him at fucking Walmart and somebody robs it and he wants to go chase him, that I got to fucking kill that dude before he kills some poor shoplifter or something. Like, that's what kind of society are we where i have literally from the age of 17 this country has told me that there's some fucking

honor in training me to kill people and that's just fucking gross we talked about misconduct earlier but when police officers do wrong how hard is it for police officers to talk about other police officers doing wrong how hard is it as a police officer to see somebody do something wrong, to shoot – maybe not go as far as to shoot somebody but to rough somebody up or to do something that is clearly misconduct? You as a police officer, what happens in your mind and is there any avenue that those police officers can follow? So this never even registered to me. registered to me um to me at the time you were asking me a question of uh such and such answer is either a b c or d and turning in another cop was e like i didn't even see it on the fucking test i don't even know what you're talking about that's not even an option on my list sure i never really thought about it until later on much later later. It's not even a possibility.

The people that do it, we know what happens to them. I had an officer that worked for me. I was a sergeant when he was a trainee, and he ended up witnessing an event and testifying in court and getting people convicted. And he gets run out of town. He's considered this terrible person, this traitor to policing. he gets run out of town he's he's considered this this terrible person this traitor to policing he got run out of town literally they they put there was newspapers articles all about his name is joe crystal he he's they they were he's getting intimidated he and he now works for a police department in uh somewhere in pennsylvania i

mean uh florida like near the panhandle and he's making a fraction of what he made before. His entire life is screwed up and that's all because he did the right thing at one moment to actually stand for justice. So if you do stand for it, you are fucked and I

never had any intention of fucking myself. So it's not an option until somebody creates a structure for those people to actually do that. What kind of structure would be needed for us to move forward with something like that? Because one of the things that the – we're talking about Black Lives Matter. We talked about it many times. One of the reasons why people, minorities are pissed off is they feel like they're being harassed and you know a lot of times when when we see i think that's because of the harassment it might be

to be fair i'm pretty sure i explained that but but you know we we uh for example i'll uh i'll see a facebook video gets posted and what'll happen is is somebody uh this is an example i saw recently there was this black guy walking down in this tunnel somewhere and the cop wanted to stop him and look for his fucking ticket like check for his ticket or something i don't even know if he was like a real cop or whatever i don't know and he could have been like a metro cop or you know whatever and he stops the guy and there's a bunch of people kind of standing around the guy's like i'm going to catch my bus leave me alone and there's kind of this argument that breaks up and the guy doesn't want to show him his ticket he

just wants to go he's not interested in it and then finally the fucking cop pulls out a taser and tases the guy and just tases him while he's on the ground and what the comments that you see and this is always the comments that you see is well he should he should have just listened from the very beginning he should have just complied if he would have just complied and said yes sir no sir wouldn't have been an issue. There wouldn't be no problems. And while that may be true, what that doesn't take into account is the fact that maybe this guy gets harassed every single day. Maybe at this point, this guy is pissed off because this is the fifth time I've been harassed. And now what do I got to fucking – do I got to add this into the time that I'm going to go to work, right?

Because like let's say I get pulled over every third day or maybe it's not even that much. Maybe it's like every other week. But still, it's like I'm late to work. Well, I only left enough time so I could get to fucking work. I didn't fucking say, well, I've got to wait a half an hour for this cop to fucking tear my car apart before he'll let me go and then I'm going to be late to work again so i imagine that there's you know there's the the level of stress on on minorities when they get pulled over again and again and again and again because they're being profiled that's got to wear on people and i feel like that's one of the major reasons why there's all this pushback and so you know and then when they get pissed off where do they go they've got to go to the police to say hey you know this asshole keeps pulling

me over and then nothing fucking happens all right so we have patriots that say comply or die. They're sitting there. They want to support the Bundys protecting the use of land. It's a different BLM. It's the Bureau of Land Management. That's right. Nice tie-in. It's his favorite joke, so don't take it away from him.

Don't take it away from him. I have very few things. But when it happens to a brown-skinned person they say oh why don't you just follow why don't you just submit to your authority like this is america you don't fucking submit to authority what are you talking about we had a bunch of british people telling us or we were british telling us oh we'll fucking do this do that we went fuck you we fucking we went we threw their tea in the fucking water and said eat a dick bitch uh like it's not happening

that is a quote from george washington he said that when he was going over the potomac i actually think that's it's little known but if you turn the declaration over it says on the back eat a dick it should you know it's literally what it means it's like tell the government, eat a dick. It should. It's literally what it means. It's like, tell the government to eat a dick. Eat a dick, bitch. No, that's just rude. That is just rude. Someone take Franklin away. Don't give him a pen anymore.

Give him a slave girl. Impregnate her. Deny everything that happens. Minor details. I see that it's just grossly un-American so you think you think that if a couple's over you should be able to say fucking what the fuck dude well my advice would be to not

even say that I don't say shit like my friends always I tell them like if a cop says something you know like most cops will tell you you don't say shit never trust the cop they're only trying to get you in trouble and that's because they're incentivized sure to get you in trouble that's what they're trying to do that is their job the only reason they're not doing that is their own goodwill in their own heart because i don't fundamentally believe that that cops want to do this.

I think there's a small portion that are racist and don't give a fuck, and they want to do it that way. But most cops want to be good. They want a structure. They want to have incentives that allow them to do things. They want to take the time with that kid to make sure he has food and can get to school and has a future. They don't want to just throw him off the bus and lock him up because he doesn't have a ticket.

They don't want to do that, but that's the system that we've created for the opportunity. I'm glad you're talking about that because I wanted to talk about a couple of things. A couple of times you talked about the incentives that are in place. And so what that tells me is that this is less of a – overarching-wise, this is less of a grassroots issue on the cop side and more of a top-down issue in terms of the way that this is being structured. So if I were to join the force tomorrow, I could not say I'm going to join the force and I want to do good and I want to accomplish all of these things because my career is going to just get fucked right over if I do

that. I'm incentivized, as you mentioned, according to your anecdote. I'm incentivized to behave in a very different way than I might be otherwise inclined ethically to behave. That's what you're describing. So maybe you want to be a homicide detective. I do, very much. How would you get there? I would first go back in time. I think I'm too old. But what would you want – so if Cecil was going to be a homicide detective. He's very much too old. What skills would you want?

Homicide detectives are old. You, you dick. You're an asshole. I am too old. No, you're not. You would name skills, right? But none of those skills would be how many black people you can lock up for selling weed. That would actually be on my resume.

But that's what happens. No, no, no. Not how many black guys you bought weed oh okay all right okay yeah those are his references i got a list of numbers they're all burners i don't know where to call i know i know where to call him it's fine so like but you already know the answers to really your own questions yeah but i'm giving I don't know where to call him. I know where to call him. It's fine. So like – but you already know the answers to really your own questions. Yeah, but I'm giving you an opportunity to talk about it. It's called a softball. You do this when you're interviewing people. We do this.

Yeah, and so I'm saying that so people on the other end of this fucking microphone think to themselves that I'm not actually talking to you. I'm talking to them. So fuck. Play along. I think we just – And then call me out for not playing along did we just break the fifth that's amazing we have uh what clearly is a system that incentivizes uh what you think is the wrong thing which you you know which which doesn't matter what i think what do you guys think well i i think i think if you're just incentivizing you know petty drug arrests i think the war on drugs is a complete

failure empirically i think it's an absolute failure i think it's what we're doing is we're just we're we're we're housing people we're essentially just housing them because what we're doing is we're taking them off the street and we're just putting them in jail for long criminalizing yeah and and and we're we're're not creating – the worst part about our system, and we've talked about this many, many, many times, but we have a vengeance-based system in our country. We do not have a – we don't have a rehabilitative system. It's not like you go into jail and you come out with a degree.

And it's certainly not a justice system. I said all those things with Rogan. Everybody thought I was crazy. He said, oh, well, we've got to punish them. We do? He really is pro-punishment. Do we really have to fucking punish them? I don't understand.

Yeah. You just look at all the other systems in the world that are so much better than ours. You look at the Scandinavian countries have an amazing prison system that does not – the recidivism rates are low. People come out of there with hope and degrees and a path to becoming a good citizen. Whereas here, I was watching a Louis Thoreau documentary where they were showing the jail. Now, this is not the prison. This is the jail. This is the jail where you go if you're awaiting fucking trial.

So you're not even fucking guilty yet. You're just a dude who couldn't afford the bail to get out of jail, right? So you've got to wait for your court date. As soon as you walk into this jail, they put you in a room and the room has 15 to 20 people in the room. You put your fucking mat and this is everybody in this was saying this, everybody in the entire documentary was saying this was going on and Louis was fucking blown away. Louis Thoreau was blown away that this was happening. You put your fucking blanket on the lower bunk and some dude walks up and says, that's bunk and then you go to put it on another bunk and he says that's my bunk and you've got to fight you have to physically fight another human being because they need to know where you sit in the

fucking pecking order right so why that happens and why you see that in um impoverished areas is because we we've demonstrated that when males have no ability to achieve or succeed masculinely in their environment, they resort to physical aggression because it's the only power they have at all. So we actually know why that happens. We know ways to prevent it, and we know not to do it. vent it and we know not to do it but because we have that punishment system we almost want that person that goes into that that jail to have to go through moving that bunk and getting punished because we feel like societally we say they deserve it and i don't know like how do we get to get to people that that's fucking gross well and then and then the idea too of like, you know, I mean, how many people are upset by prison rape?

You know what I mean? There's people who think. More men are raped in this country than women. People need to understand that. And that's purely because of prison rape. We have this society where we think, oh my God, we have to stop women from getting raped. And absolutely we do.

But we have to understand that more men get raped. I didn't know that. I didn't realize that that was a thing look mental note no prison no prison i don't i'm not even fucking writing people letters that are in prison fuck that absolutely not that's why i'm not even donating to the innocence project i want that much distance between me and prison at this point what's what's crazy is is that is that we like there's many people who will say you know i hope that goes goes to jail and gets raped like that's like a it's like a it's a way in which we we it's another punishment we can

stack on and i think the most egregious thing about the jail piece is that that person could be innocent they're just awaiting trial. So it could be me. I just couldn't afford my fucking bail. Kalief Browder in New York dies in never committing a crime. He had a fucking backpack that was his that was suspected of being somebody else's, and he ends up dying in jail because he's there forever, and he didn't do anything.

These things, they're not just speculation. They happen. We know that they happen. Right. Yeah, we know that they happen. So these are lives. So this whole system is supposed to be to protect life. So how much of this gets solved by legalizing drugs, first of all?

I think 80%. I think it's the – it's so much of it. It's so much. We've talked about this before. What about Portugal? Right. And that's not even legalization that's still decriminalization well they they put in a state uh a state heroin center where if you want heroin you could just go get heroin so there's a you walk in and some fucking

big old nurse sets you on the table and shoots it in your arm and you just lay there and get real fucking high well everybody does that in america anyway i we're still not considering the oxycontin is not heroin right it's totally it's just illegal the biggest drug dealers in america do it completely legally and then they get everybody hooked and then they be turned to heroin because you can't get oxys anymore but in any case the the the it's legal there so you can walk in and just do it now you can't have it outside of there you can't do it outside of there. You can't do it outside of there, but you can totally do it, and it's free. It's fucking free, at least from the article I read. It was free.

But the younger generation, look at that. And they said, well, that's fucking weird. What's with all those old people going there and fucking – That's weird. You got to go to the DMV to get your fucking heroin? Yeah, I ain't doing that. That's the least cool thing possible. Can you imagine?

But that's it. It's exactly it. It takes the cool factor out of it, right? It takes the – what I think – I mean, to be perfectly blunt, what I think we need to do is we need to legalize – He totally threw that pun. I know. I know. It doesn't happen.

Puns don't – they don't register with Tom. They don't register with him. Wordplay and I don't get along. It's like foreplay. I just don't do it. Divorce. Shocker. Nicely done, sir. Nicorce. Nicely done, sir.

Nicely done. Nicely done. I'll see you in prison. No foreplay there either. I'm scared of him. Anyway. But, you know, legalization is step one. And then, truth be told, I mean, because that gets rid of, you know, gangs aren't going to have – what are you going to fight on the street for territory for?

What's the purpose of it? It defunds the whole – not the whole, but it defunds much of the criminality that gangs are fighting over. Now people can actually – Also, you can't pay the foot soldiers anymore. What do you pay them? And what would you pay – why would you even have foot soldiers? We wouldn't even need them. But if you have a gang and there's a structure, what do you pay them with?

You don't pay them with anything because they don't have anything to make. They don't have any money. Be careful that we have to replace their income. So you're talking about taking an income source away. If I were to legalize weed, I would need to – or even if it's just weed in Chicago, I need to find a way to integrate the drug dealers into the new business, which is going to be super hard to integrate the drug dealers into the new business, which is going to be super hard to sell.

Has crime gone up in Colorado? Colorado is a shining example. Crime has gone down. DUIs have gone down. Juvenile use of marijuana has gone down for the exact same reasons. What about Washington State? Same thing? You're going to see the exact same things that happen because of the same problem that

happens. If your mom... Okay, so if you go into my house and i'm smoking a joint do you think my daughter thinks that's very cool of course not no you're doing it's not cool at all so that's that that's the psychology that happens and juvenile usage in colorado has gone down dramatically and and it does that everywhere that that you're talking about for the same reasons as it did in portugal sure so but but you know step two is we need to come up with better drugs you know the the problem isn't that and and i really do think this is the case we need to spend

some money and we need to build high quality safe designer drugs that are sold legally you know the the problem exists but we got we have all the we have all these laws against them and we really need to we need to sell them we need to regulate them and sell them because there's no – we already know people want to get high. We know they want to get high. The best thing about cannabis though is that it takes – okay, so people will do – you have a chronic pain and you have a job. And when you have that job, you get drug tested. And so you can get your Oxycontins. You can get your legal heroin and that's fine as long as you have your prescription. But then they cut you off for your prescription. So then you can get your oxycontins, you can get your legal heroin, and that's fine as long

as you have your prescription. But then they cut you off for your prescription, so then you turn to heroin. Well, heroin gets out of your system pretty fast, so they stick with heroin, and then you go on this down cycle from being addicted from a pain situation to begin with. But if cannabis was legal, then they would use cannabis instead of the heroin, but they can't use it because it will pop on the drug test and that's what you'll see in areas like colorado is is the biggest thing that has happened is that the oxycontin use and painkiller use has fucking plummeted because people just turn to cannabis and that doesn't have any health effects so it's actually harm reduction to do what you're doing

it's not even like being smart. It's like being humane. Sure. So we get rid of massive amounts of the violence problem, right? We defund tremendous amounts of this gang violence. We de-incentivize gang violence. Just like Prohibition. We save a ton of money. We save a ton of money.

Make money. Gain money. We make money. We make money. So that's a win on both sides of the balance sheet, right? Shit ton of money. Right. My revenue is up.

My expenses are down. I don't know why every conservative doesn't love that idea. It's money in the bank. What do you think about that? I think, though, that we're talking about revenue generation for the city. I think the city is making a ton of money off of the people that are – Not nearly as much. No?

Because you're costing money. the people that are... Not nearly as much. No? Because you're costing money. So even keeping somebody in jail is astronomically more expensive than putting them through college. But we're focused on the punishment. We're not focused on rehabilitation.

So even financially, you would be better off doing it the other way around. Plus the social cost of poverty. The social cost of poverty and social and economic inequality are massive. Cities spend tons of money on these revitalization projects

that they try to revitalize urban areas and it goes to shit and it's this constant yo-yo effect. Money gets shit into these neighborhoods. Schools are spending tons of money just trying to give kids fucking free lunch and free breakfast and all this because there's no goddamn jobs because these places are fucking war zones you fix the war zone problem and you can spend less money fixing the other social issues the other economic inequality it's literally on paper and

you can all see it and and this is all documented and proven we're just stubborn like i don't we're so afraid of change and we're so afraid of helping like like people when they say oh we're in college is going to be free like how many people do you hear in their 50s being like i'm still fucking paying off my college debt it's not free for me it's free for your kid and you're fucking bitching like what are you talking everybody is just worried like i don't know like it's so american i had to go to jail you should go to jail too right it's true it's like i worked 100 hours a week you know and slept every fourth night you should do the same that's terrible like no you shouldn't have to do the same

thing don't you care about the next generation no they shouldn't do that because you always want to have the follow-up question was it great right oh well why wouldn't you want to not do it they get free housing in the hood i wish i could have free housing you can't go fucking move to the hood i love that argument i fucking love that argument we've said that many times like yeah well you want it go get it it's fucking right there the thing is is nobody would trade their safety and security of their middle class income for the government cheese that people get. People say that all the time. When you hear the welfare thing, it's like, oh, I wish I didn't have to work and I got paid.

You can. You can do that right now. But if you do it, understand that your life is not going to be the same life that you have. It's going to suck. It's going to be the same life that you have it's gonna suck it's gonna suck and that people that people don't have a lot of sympathy for people who are on welfare or on you know that are and that are in poverty that are on you know housing that get hud checks and they don't have sympathy for those people but those people they live a real fucking hard life and people don't understand they're

struggling with those regressive taxes like we were talking about before we have to remember that a flat tax is the same thing so if if you have $100 to spend and the next guy has $1,000 to spend and you tax people at 15%, well, that's dramatically influencing the person that only has $100 and doesn't give a fuck all to the person that has $1,000. And that's the same thing when it comes to on the street level. If your parking ticket is $50 and you get a parking ticket and don't give two shits, remember that to the person that's making that $17,000 to $20,000 a year, a parking ticket is dramatic. I mean so everybody wants to go, oh, $15 an hour minimum wage. Fuck them. Leave them at $7.25. So their parking ticket is an entire day's worth of work and yours was a fucking two hours.

How do you not fucking grasp that yeah well i think they do grasp it though i really do i think that they just don't give a shit right because everybody or not everybody but many people who have reached a certain level of financial success and i run into this personally all the time at like higher levels of management senior management executive management is like this all the time at like higher levels of management senior management executive management is like this all the time i'll go to these board meetings go to these sit meeting and they don't give a shit they think that they earned everything everybody will tell you they pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and that you know they never had a thing handed to them and they you know everybody's got the same fucking you know onward west story you know as if they're fucking you know

self-made men to a to a goddamn one of them and nobody that i've met that is actually sitting in those rooms is a self-made man coming out of the hood right none of them are self-made guys who were born into a single family household you know where somebody maybe isn't you know mom's in jail or dad's in jail or maybe at some point they're both in jail and they're raised by a grandparent. Some fucking asshole locked them up for drugs. Because some fucking guy just wanted to beat them up for nothing. But it's a myth. It's a myth is the whole point.

We're telling ourselves these stories because they're part of Americana. They're part of that culture of the self-made man. And that is doing us a terrible disservice in how we think about building a better society yeah what the fuck are we gonna do about oh god we're gonna lock up all the brown people we're gonna we're gonna make you chicago's top cop that's what we're gonna do i mean did i mean like you guys paid attention when it happened with that yeah oh yeah they just basically they they they had a guy who ran and then he got hired and then they just picked somebody else. Right. So when the time came, I said the three people will be an Uncle Tom, a female, and some dude that they don't really consider, like just a throw-in.

And that's exactly what they did. And they picked the Uncle Tom who I knew they were going to pick. And I'm sorry. Maybe he'd be offended that I call him an Uncle Tom. but he's a dude that's been in the system his entire life i'm sorry but you're black or white being a cop and you've been in the system your whole life you are no different don't let somebody fool you they are blue for a reason there's no difference between white or black in the police department to the way they treat the public um internally you still have racism and black officers are still treated like shit within an agency christ um that that's one of the things that first kicked me off is because i realized how

black officers were being punished disproportionately they were getting promoted disproportionately uh kicked out of the through medical problems disproportionately and i saw that so i was like we have this here within our own ranks. The FOP in Baltimore is nothing but an old bunch of white guys lining the walls, all their pictures. There's no minorities. There's nothing. It's just this good old boys club that exists throughout the whole fucking thing. So they picked him, the Uncle Tom that I'm calling. I'm so sorry that he's going to be offended by that, but whatever.

He doesn't listen to this shit. I don't think he's going to write it. He sent us a message after we talked about the boom, but he said he was never listening. Never again. He had a robot write it, actually. So they pick him, and Emmanuel freaks out because obviously it's not his guy. He wants

a puppet. So he picks his puppet, and then the council agrees for his puppet. That council's a rubber stamp you're all sitting here like look how bad the shootings are look how bad this shit this shit is well there's your puppet so blame emmanuel top down as you said but what's being done like i don't know part of me is like what the fuck are y'all doing in chicago that you're not stopping this you're allowing your mayor to say

screw what you guys want because i i have a hard time believing i always say if i get the room i'll sell it you give me 100 chicago how do you say that chicagoans okay you just say yeah say it again give me 100 chicagoans then i can convince them without without a doubt that i'm better than any of those candidates because i'm going to serve them, and that's fundamentally the most important thing. So that mayor doesn't give a shit what you think. But the mayor only has to give a shit what we think for about three months every four years. Right. Why are you saying right?

You fought this goddamn concept earlier. That the mayor only has to give a shit? No. That's the thing. It's an oligarchy. I'm not fighting a concept. What I'm saying – what I'm doing is pushing up. You're being offensive.

I'm pushing back against cynicism. Right. Pushing back against cynicism. I didn't even remember that was the argument, but you're right, that was. He was the argument. So as long as Emmanuel is telling... Focus, focus. He's telling you what policing will be. for fucking chewy man i don't know any

of them i voted for the other guy so the other democrat that was going to lose i voted and was probably going to do the same thing though maybe yeah but he was called chewy yeah he was he was he really was he was running on an education platform see the cops here's what here's what you don't well maybe you do understand, but what happens in Chicago is that poor people die. And I don't think people can really get motivated by poor people dying. I think the reason that

you're never going to see any change is because the people who put Emanuel in power aren't being killed or don't have to worry about their little kid getting caught in a drive-by. That's why we've got to stop them from fucking getting to work on time getting caught in a drive-by that's why we got to stop them from fucking getting to work on time by shutting down a street so so that it does actually affect their life um and that's that's how i really got into black lives matter is because

when i started speaking out i figured i i'm getting pushed into this argument that's defending essentially East and West Baltimore so I better know what the fuck I'm talking about and I went down and started connecting with everybody to really just kind of confirm that I was seeing the world the same way and so they all became close to me

and they became my friends and now it's not just a Black Lives Matter rally to me and they became my friends and and now it's not just a black lives matter like rally to me it's that kwame and tarik's life matters and and i i see them as being that same discrimination or oppression from the policing towards them and that no one's going to care if they get killed and like these are my fucking friends that i care about and you're seeing more about with that if you look at a picture of a black lives matter rally it's going to be 50 white at minimal so people are learning it's just too fucking slow because each slowness means a laquan mcdonald and a tamir rice each day

as we go on but don't be fooled fooled that we are having a lot of success. This conversation is evidence of that. When you say you get together with these people, is that what you're doing now? What are you doing now? Are you promoting? Just tell me, what's your job? What are you doing? Yeah, that's weird.

I feel like I don't know what that is. I was fundamentally, to begin with, going into this, I wanted to create a police science that was based upon business metrics because all this science that we're talking about has already been done in the business world because they care about what their outcome is. Sure, absolutely. And so everything's there. And what I want to do is translate all those principles into terms that policing can understand and lean on.

So that's what I wanted to do. That was my fundamental goal, was I was going to be this professor, this scientist that was just going to take that quiet approach. But then when I came out and got the media attention, I realized that there was a moral imperative. I came out against police brutality. I did I realized that there was a moral imperative. I came out against police brutality. I did not just

come out. Not that there's anything wrong about guys. I'm going to stop digging my hole and move on. So I then feel like there's a moral imperative to start saying something and to be that spokesman.

And that just kind of has taken foothold. So there's a bunch of stuff on Vice going. I've done a shit ton of TV and podcasts and things like that to get the word out. I feel like I have to, that I can't just sit there and do that. But in my idea, I'm still the scientist. I can't just sit there and do that. But in my idea, I'm still the scientist, but as long as people are listening, I think nationally the science works the best. But if I can get a city and I can do an actual model, I think the dominoes fall.

If you just give me a chance and put in metrics that police really want, one of the biggest surprises is you would think that I would be the enemy of policing. But my inbox is fucking filled with cops around this country and people who want to be cops saying they understand, they want to do this, they want to do it right. They just don't have the ability and they don't have the structure there. I know that as soon as I put the structure in place, the cops don't want to fucking be your enemy. The system makes them your enemy. So as long as I can change the system, those fucking dominoes are going to fall. There was a time in my life, and I don't think I'm that horrible. There was a time in my life I considered being a police officer, and I considered doing it because I felt like my job was meaningless, and I wanted to do something that meant something. I had a terrible, meaningless job.

I still do. But I wanted to make a change. I was a do. But I wanted to make a change. I was a younger man. I wanted to make a change, do something that really fundamentally meant something to me every day. I have to think, and I fucking just know that there's a ton of people who get into police work because they feel that way too. Now, whether the shit beat out of them just by the routine of the job and the incentives for other things and all the rest of it, routine of the job and the incentives for other things and all the rest of it. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that in terms of your experience coming into the force and then being in the force for a period of time, that change, if there is a change, and

I suspect that there is, based on your comments. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. I'd like to also hear your thoughts on bridging that us versus them gap from a police standpoint to a community standpoint, because what you were just describing is going down and meeting folks in the Black Lives Matter movement and becoming friends, and that's bridging that us and them gap, right? So I'd like to hear your thoughts on both of those subjects. I think it's hard for people to do because what I did was I made myself really vulnerable. You seem like kind of a vulnerable guy, you know,

like I get this, like this open, vulnerable kind of feel from the, no, he's just suckering you in so he can kill you. That's what it is. My leg, this whole fucking time.

So for you, it ain't all donors. What's all for you. So it's not that awkward. God damn it. I knew it was going to be this way. You go in as an occupier, but the goal is to be integrated. And that's really where our divide is.

Where I realized this is i was doing my degree while i was in the police department and they stopped funding for the degree program to do tuition reimbursement and it was a big problem eventually they brought it back and said that okay you had to volunteer at rec centers um and i was like all right i'll go volunteer at a rec center to get the tuition reimbursement for college. And when I did that, I went down to the rec center, not wanting to do some rec center in the hood. So wait a minute. To get your tuition reimbursed, not only do you have to be a student and be a cop full time, but then you also have to spend some of your fucking time volunteering? Welcome to my life.

That's retarded. That's just straight retarded. So I did that. Who has time for this? I don't know. Well, you said I was on my third marriage. Answer your own question. So the answer is not you.

Looking for lucky number two. So there, being with the kids and stuff in the rec center, it was another one of those moments where I was like, fuck. These are just, this is no different. These kids are poor. It doesn't make them any different. And I realized that if that kid that I was at the rec center with was on the corner 10 years from now, how dramatically different I would treat this kid. 10 years from now, how dramatically different I would treat this kid.

So I had that experience for a while, and I started taking my daughter down with me when she was a little kid because I saw that change in myself, and I realized that I needed to teach her that so she wouldn't fall to the same traps that I was in. And she went down. We would go down together, hang out with everybody, do everything, have fun, and go back our ways. And now one of those kids from that rec center has called up to me as an adult and be like, hey, you influenced my life as well. I fucking hated all cops. And it was like, that's clear. It's clear that's what it is. We have to be integrators. We have to take off the gun and badge. We have to make ourselves vulnerable because otherwise we're just occupiers and we're not part of the community. I can go in East and

West Baltimore now unarmed because they know i'm not a threat they know i'm i'm a friend i'm there to help them so it it is literally literally about not going down there to put people in jail it's about going down there to help and and and help doesn't mean your idea it means means their idea, what their structure is. So we do that. We throw money at the city. And then we go, well, what the fuck? We built you this bridge and we built you this resource center.

Why aren't you using it? Because they don't need a resource center and a bridge. They need a garden. They need fresh food. They need lead poisoning cleaned up, lead poisoning, the strongest correlate to violent crime that we know of. to violent crime that we know of. So we have all these different things that we're not addressing because we're so focused on occupying and controlling people like we're like, like hammers.

So that's the biggest awakening that it, so like say you have a cadet, I want to have a cadet that wants to be a cop. I want to make him work in the city unarmed and integrate with people for a year before he gets to be a cop. So you can see that there's no reason to be afraid. We all have that in our mind. We think South Chicago is dangerous.

We think those people are dangerous, and they're fucking not. They're people that are struggling because we've taken all the resources away and then said, where the fuck are your bootstraps when we took the bootstraps away? It's interesting. You mentioned the resources when you go in and sort of tell people what they want. We just had someone on from Foundation Bound Belief, and we had a conversation about this. And one of the things that grassroots organizations do all the time

that many larger organizations don't do, larger organizations like the Red Cross and I think a couple others went into Haiti, and they sort of – when Haiti had that big earthquake, they didn't go in and say, what do you need? Instead, they went and did stuff, right? But there was other grassroots organizations that went in and said, what do you need? What is it that you want from us? And one of the organizations, what they wanted was – they wanted lights at night because people were getting raped. They were getting on the way to the bathroom because you had to go to the bathroom like through these long and they just wanted lights they didn't

want somebody to come in and like give them clean water or set up a food place or anything they wanted lights they just wanted big powered lights can you do that and they're like fuck yeah we can do that we got fucking lights for days fucking lit that fucking place up like a fucking like a like a baseball stadium and the rapes went down and all the crime went down that was happening at night which was where which was when that was happening at night, which was when it was happening. So there's like this feeling that we know what's best for you. We have this big

organization that has a lot of money, this nonprofit. I'm going to come in and make you a community center. Well, what if we don't need it? What if we need a garden, like you said? So business metrics, again, so if, I don't know how well versed you are in normal business practices, but say you're a business consultant and you want to make a factory more efficient. Do you know who has the best answers to make that factory more efficient?

The workers on the floor. Yeah. Every single time. But we don't trust poor people to make decisions for themselves because there is an overarching narrative in this country that you got poor because you make bad decisions. And that is a story that America tells and loves. We fucking love that story. God bless America. But we do.

No, it's true. You know, like this is a problem of how we tell our story of who we are. Which is crazy because Trump is the most uneducated motherfucker I've ever seen. That dude is super fucking rich. I mean, what is the – You know, that exhale. That is a small exhale that is a smile usually when he does that is when i go ah this episode you aren't the only one my friend what was that dude that that price dude i i told him i said uh

i'm sorry david i had to turn that off about five minutes into that bad boy and i was like don't care what that dude has to say that's okay tom tom falls asleep to david smalley every week that's how i started listening to him he used to sleep yeah let's do the same thing and put the podcast on it's not even that it's soothing. It's just that I want to die. I want to turn my brain off. Just kidding, David. I love you.

So when's your book come out? I'm not going to do a book. I have no intention of doing that. None? I feel like it would be very exploitive. Well, that's how you make money. We exploit people for money. Do you recognize this?

I don't understand. The city of Baltimore is assisting in paying my pension okay that's sufficient to me um for what i've received from the community and one of my big projects right now is i just finished collecting uh five thousand dollars to build a studio so we're doing a thing way fancier in this bullshit here um but so the idea of fucking root You have just disinvited yourself a second time, sir. Right? Wow. Wow. That little fucking blue box is $5,000. You insulted Tom.

He's a bad purchaser. It's a bad purchaser. They said it was magic. There's beans in there. There was three beans in there. They will grow. There's a lot of lights on it. I will say that. It makes a lot of lights on it. I will say that.

Your biggest fucking guest you've had on yet. You're not big league. No, no. Smalley's bigger than you, man. Smalley's not bigger than anybody. That's so wrong. It's because he's diminutive. I am not part of this.

He knows he's tiny. So you're going to, you're going to, you're going to have your own show. We're building a whole, I mean, so I have a show coming up, but we're building a whole studio with video,

audio, all the stuff set up, all the website, all the infrastructure, like a radio station where the, the activists and people in the community that want to do a podcast and they want to learn how to do it. They can come in and they can do that.

They can get their own voices out. Like one of the things I want to do in the future is I just want to get up and go and pick a drug dealer or some kid off the street, bring him in and let him have a voice so that you can hear where everything is coming from. Because these, these, these kids aren't,

are not your enemy. Wow. I assure you. Where is this going to be at? So this is in Baltimore. Okay okay um in the in a in an area called greektown but we'll have it out um the first thing we're doing to launch it do you know the adnatsai case of cereal yeah sure so i'm friends with his family and the first thing we're going to do is a joint podcast together called misconduct and it's going to be the killing of freddie gray going through the nuance of that because we we only see freddie gray as this black kid that got killed in the city but he he he encompasses everyone in baltimore to a certain extent because they're all subject to the

this environment and these violations and they're all subject to like why are three white cops from the county chasing down a black kid in the hood for looking at them the wrong way? We need to go into why these situations are there. People don't understand the nuance of why each part is in place. that freddie gray not only represents everybody from the city but is gradually representing everybody else in the entire world as policing has become more about us versus them blue versus everyone instead of just blue versus the disenfranchised you'll see that with shootings like john raw or the case uh what's the make and murder case guy you know that oh the uh that that netflix i don't fuck yeah steve avery case um zachary hammond who got killed you're seeing a lot of white people be killed in the very same circumstances which i can is going to continue

to grow i i want the world to understand that that freddie gray just doesn't represent a poor black kid to an extent he represents everybody and they're subject to this system so that'd be the first thing we do but that the point of talking about that is that it's about building a structure so if you want to be a white liberal that helps it's not about going in there and saying throwing money or telling them what you want to do it's about building structures for them it's about making those boots so they have bootstraps to pull up because these guys work harder than anybody. I cannot believe the amount of knowledge. I was shocked by that for a long time. I've learned so much from these kids, and they see the world.

They just don't have the words to articulate it like I do because I was privileged to go to a decent school and to get into the Marine Corps and not be locked up. When I got locked up my one time as a juvenile, I got locked up with my black friend who was a thousand times better than I am as a person. And he was the one in handcuffs, not me. And that even happens in suburbia. So we just need to understand that it's going to affect all of us at some point in time if we don't step up now. It was that poem, first they came for the socialists, then the trained unionists. We're literally in that situation as we speak. They are coming for you because that bar of the middle class is shifting every single day.

So if people were going to find your work, where would they look? The easiest thing to do is www.michaelawoodjr.net or at Michael A. Wood Jr. on Twitter. I interact most on Twitter because I really want to try and go back and forth with people which is super difficult.

These motherfuckers, you know, they go to you in and you reply and then they're like, why are you being a dick? And it's like you came on my thing saying I

didn't know what the fuck I was talking about. That's Twitter. Like, you know, you sign up. Yeah, you signed up for that. You signed up for that. Well, we'll put your Twitter and your website on this episode's show notes. Thanks for joining us, man.

Thanks so much. I loved being here. I'm a big fan. Anytime you want to come back, you're welcome to come back. We really enjoyed it. We really did. I'd actually like it when your studio gets up and running. I think it would be kind of cool.

Maybe we'll come out and see it and maybe we can do something on the road and that would be super sweet you did want to shoot that 50 cal barrett sniper rifle after all that's the only reason i want you to fucking call me out i actually forgot about that entirely i just want to promote your shit i wrote it i wrote i made a note in my phone but now that you've done it twice i'm shooting that fucking pig thanks for joining us man it's a lot of fun thank you thanks so much snake people or sneeple control our government at the highest level so we did red tom for this time jesus the greatest bestest awesomest secret the most bestest uh by david eich the most much a secret we read chapter nine so i have a quiz buddy you have a quiz i got a quiz for you i don't think you're gonna do that well on it and then it's pretty hard the final

the final piece will be the uh the uh the synopsis but we again we did not have sarah read for us this time again there's nothing does she have her own job or something what's what's going on with that problem the problem is is that there's not. What the hell? Does she have her own job or something? What's going on with that? The problem is that there hasn't been any paragraphs that I've come across that have been like, this is it. This is the paragraph. There were a few early on, but these ones are all – there's little snippets out of each paragraph, but there's not like one paragraph that you're just like this fucking hit it out of the park. That's because there has come a point in this book, Cecil, where the crazy doesn't stop. It is an unrelenting cavalcade of bullshit that is – at some point, it numbs the mind. It's like conspiracy spaghetti.

You're trying to untangle it. Because there are so many different paths that he's following. You get lost in so many different conspiracies. He believes every single conspiracy that's ever happened. All the conspiracies. Every one. There's not one. So let me do my quiz for us.

All right. I feel ready for this. I've studied. Here we go. How did the Babylonian Brotherhood know about America thousands of years before christopher columbus ran a blanket drive a the aryans saw america from space when they left their doom world of mars for ours b reptiles that live in the lower fourth dimension are capable of remote viewing it comes standard on all reptile hybrids.

C, the Brotherhood of Reptiles hired prominent Viking Leif Erikson to find a nice large rock in a sunny place so they could build their summer homes. He stumbled upon the rest of the Americas while looking for Arizona. And finally, D, boats. Let's go with boats. That's great. I actually, can we do swapsies? Go ahead. Let's go with boats. That's great.

I actually – can we do swapsies? Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Because I have a related question, my friend. Why did the reptile Aryan Brotherhood hide the truth about who and when America was discovered by white people? A. was discovered by white people a because despite being here already for literally thousands of years the reptiles had to wait for white dudes to invent long-distance sailing and navigation technologies to organically become invented before using white european dudes to pretend

they totally found america even though america had already been found earlier and we know this because corn so they could plunder the planet of gold which aliens really like but they are also evidently willing to wait for and obtain by the slowest most technologically retarded means possible it's a very long answer my friend that's the first answer oh geez there's more you have options oh gosh b because native populations of north america and south america were immune to the hypno-gaze of the reptile people. And so they could not be dominated. It's like the gypno-gaze.

And so they could not be dominated by an interdimensional, all-powerful race of space reptiles without the intervening aid of white people. C. Okay. Because it doesn't count unless white people do it totes first. D. Because when viewed from space before the reptile people arrived on Earth to steal our gold over the course of tens of thousands of years, they didn't remember that the Earth had a Western hemisphere. What's A? It is A.

It's A. It's A because you concluded the entire book in A. The entire book could be summed up in A. Essentially, A is the book. That's it. That's the book up till now is A. Jesus, my foot. Okay.

All right. Complete the following sentence. This is going to be great. America, land of the free. A, but not sugar free b only on nights and weekends offer void in utah and montana or c what a joke the utah and montana really threw me but i'm gonna go with c i mean i get c so it turns out there are vacuum sealed vaults of old books what does this prove a that credo mutwa was right i'm gonna the very next pad i have is credo mutwa that's especially if it's a dog it's even better if it's a dog right

credo mutwa that's awesome but yeah even if it's like a fucking hamster, it's credo mutwa. I'm getting you a hamster in credo. I'm going to feed it to my cats. B, that the reptile Aryans use the regular Aryans to take over the world. Regular Aryans. See, we got the elite Aryans back here, and then we got just our regulars up front. back here and then we got just our regulars up front see then a guy once told ike about a guided tour of the vatican where the guide showed somebody of ike's a room full of secret books no one is sure how this supposed fact relates to anything but there you go or d all of this shit

it's definitively that one it is it is you got me You got me. I know. It's a tough quiz. It's a hard one. Okay. Yeah. The 15 bodies found in Ben Franklin's basement were... A, props for the colonial play Weekend at Bartholomew's. That's amazing. That's amazing.

B, leftovers from a primitive version of Pokemon Go. C, probably the remains of an illegal anatomy class that Ben Franklin took part in. D, the price you pay for bifocals. Or E, part of a satanic Babylonian Freemasonic sacrifice. I think it's E. I got a Ben Franklin one. That one's a little easy, I think. Ben Franklin is...

A, on the $100 bill, y'all. B, a Satanist. C, a British intelligence operative somehow nicknamed Agent 72. D, a stalwart of the Babylonian Brotherhood. E, a sacrificer of children. Or F, again, all of this dumb shit. Who knows what this is supposed to fucking prove? It is definitely the last one. It is. It is. Finally, my last question. Was that your last prove? It is definitely the last. It is.

It is. It is. Finally, my last question. Was that your last question? That was my last question. My last question. We know that London is the seat of reptile power because, A, the Brotherhood families own the U.S. Federal Reserve and the Virginia Company is owned by the Vatican. And King John in 1213 claimed autonomy for England and then

assigned duties to the Pope. B, Queen Elizabeth has been for the last 50 years slowly turning into a lizard. I wouldn't say it slowly. C, reptiles don't like seats. They like tall things they can wrap themselves around like towers, and London has a tower in it. Or D, London sits at zero degrees longitude, and zero was created by the Babylonians who shared it with the Mayans after the Phoenicians sailed there in about 500 AD, and then they traveled to England. And while it did not have the ideal temperature or food sources for reptiles to thrive, it did have low rent and the chicks did butt stuff. The last one.

No, it's not. It is the last one. No, it's not. God damn it. It's A. It's the Brotherhood families own the U.S. Federal Reserve and the Virginia Company is owned by the Vatican and King John in 1213 claimed autonomy for England and then assigned duties to the – that is why they're there. That's what he said. And I was like none of those things fucking even connect.

They don't. It doesn't even make any sense. It is so much work to arrive at the conclusion. God. It's so much work, and I have to tell you, Cecil, I'm always going to vote for the butt stuff. Me too. Me too. Even if I know it's not right and butt stuff rarely is, I'm still going to vote for it.

Is it odd that she squirts from there? It's not squirting. It's a lot of cleanup. I have two IQs. Lock down the US. All you need is 146 people. people because he refers to the fact that all you need to do to stall legislation united states one third of the legislature the house he doesn't even say the congress it could be even it should probably be even more but so yeah so that's good right and then uh my my other iq the revolution

the americans didn't win brits chose to lose. That's awesome. That's his argument. It's like London, they manufactured the revolution so that London could be in control. It's like they were already in control. Yeah, they were already in control. It didn't make any sense at all. That's a crazy – that is the craziest argument in this book so far. That they manufactured a war to create a second government but it's still ruled by the

first go like why would you go through all that work i seriously it is it's crazy it's so much work all right so here we go this is my uh this is your summary synopsis all right here we go i'm loving it reptile hipsters knew about america before it was cool and have been controlling it since forever the united states States isn't a country. It's the Virginia company. Not to be confused with the Virginia Slim Company. No one here is slim. The Constitution is essentially a loophole,

very similar to Garfunkel and Oatsong, in a sense that it exists for the government to fuck you in the ass. Also, you don't need to pay income tax. Trust me. He does say that. He does. He's like, and even the people who know it's a scam still pay it because they're scared. Scared of what?

Scared. Because he says in here, there's no law that says you have to pay it. It's like, well, but if you don't pay it, you can go to jail for tax evasion. Jiggity jail, bro. So I feel like there's a law. Jiggity jail, bro. He does go sovereign citizen in there. Oh, he totally does.

He goes sovereign citizen. He jumps off the sovereign citizen. He really does go goes sovereign citizen uh he really does go straight sovereign citizen so for the next we wound up skipping a week um but we are going to try to get to chapter 12 in august so we can have stewart from the exposing pseudo astronomy podcast on to talk about chapter 12 with hope which hopefully has something to do with astronomy anything could it have something to do with anything at any? Could it have something to do with anything at any point? I do want to point out that today, or whenever you read this, but me today, we broke the 200-page mark.

Yeah. Which means we've read 200 pages of basically a list of old places and people. That's exactly it. And how they're somehow interconnected when David Icke did shrooms. It's just all – everything is a sign of a symbol of a signee symbol. It's been a real, real treat to read so far. What a joy. And I'm anxious to finish this book up because now it's going to start – hopefully he's done – no, he's never going to finish it.

He's laid the groundwork and now we're going to connect the dots. Is that where you're going? It's 200 pages in. I have a feeling there are many more lists to come. No, he's never. He's laid the groundwork and now we're going to connect the dots. Is that where you're going? It's 200 pages in. I have a feeling there are many more lists to come. This is like infinite jest. Like you make it 200 pages in. You're like, okay. All right.

The hook is coming. The hook. Woo. All right. Here we go. It's just. All right. Eyes to page.

Eyes to page. I bought that on audio book. Did you? No. Fucking hell. That would be a fucking beast. Well, next time, chapter 10. Credulity is not a virtue.

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