Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 314: Opening Arguments

Episode Date: September 8, 2016

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Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. Hey, everyone. So remember last time we did not record an email section. We also didn't record an intro section for this particular episode, episode 314. In this episode, there's a couple of stories, and then we talk to Andrew Torres and Thomas Smith of the Opening Arguments podcast. We wound up recording so late that night that we wound up skipping out on the email section, actually forgetting about the email section. And since we didn't know if we were going to have enough tape, we actually didn't

record an intro section. So this is it. We hope you enjoy the show. This is the two stories and Thomas Smith and Andrew Torres. Any one of you lily-livered, bow-legged varmints care to slap leather with me? In case any of you get any ideas, you better know who you're dealing with. I'm the hootinest, tootinest, shootinest bob-tailed wildcat in the West. I'm the fastest gun north, south, east,

and west of the Pecos. I'm the... Yeah, shit it! Cecil, I love this story. This is also from Right Wing Watch. Stuart Rhodes urges real men to go armed to church to fight ISIS. Because we all know ISIS is in our churches.

Remember that time ISIS attacked a church? Never. You remember that time? Cecil, why are you rubbing your eyes? Why are you over there rubbing your eyes with that exhausted, exasperated sort of expression that says what the actual fuck is wrong with the world? I just some days I come in and I think, am I going to read a story like this? exasperated sort of expression that says what the actual fuck is wrong with the world i just i just some days i come in and i think am i gonna read a story like this every week buddy week do you know how it is not hard to find these stories man i'll tell you what

he has he has four points i'll read through them all so go armed to church tom what does he say about that you must all be armed since you can't reason with a jihadist. You can't negotiate with him. The only way to change his mind is with a bullet. I recommend a reliable, semi-automatic, high-capacity handgun of at least 9 millimeters for that task, such as a Glock or Smith & Wesson M&P with at least one spare magazine. At least one spare magazine. 40 bullets.

I think you need at least 40. You know what? You need that because when you're negotiating and changing his mind with bullets, the argument might go late. Come on now. Negotiate is in quotes. It is in quotes. He is basically saying when you shoot this person dead,

I am saying that. Well, I'm using the code word negotiate here right for shooting someone dead he also says carry a backup gun and a no-nonsense fixed blade knife what are you gonna go in there with a buck knife i don't for real that ain't a knife jesus this is a knife you're gonna skin him afterwards what are you gonna drain the blood before the adrenaline leaks in or something what the fuck do you have to do you're in church and you're like bristling with weapons so he says this is great as a backup carried so you have a backup gun and you have a knife carried with an easy reach of both of your hands you can't do that

in the united in illinois by the way what he says carry a backup gun and a fixed blade knife neither of those is legal you can't like we looked at a thing and essentially we can conceal carry pistols but you can only carry one pistol you can't carry multiple pistols and most things that are non-lethal and or uh not bladed weapons are illegal to carry right but he says he says in this you got to keep it up front near your belt buckle he says a fixed blade is superior to a folder and provides a sure draw and deployment under stress grab and stab where do you go to church i know it seems so dangerous can you just throw rattlesnakes at them don't yeah no kidding right don't you already have like a venomous snake you can throw at them so okay this is awesome number three is my favorite. This is the best. Number three is have a couple shotguns.

At least. At least. It says at least. You want a couple at least. That's the minimum. That means two shotguns is your minimum number of shotguns. You and I have shot several shotguns in our lives. How many shotguns do you think you could easily fire at the same time?

Reliably. One is the answer no matter how you phrase it. We've tried to hip shot in the past. Do you remember when we tried to hip shot and how terrible that is and it just doesn't work? It's just retarded. And I have shot a shotgun back when I was dumber. One arm. I've held a shotgun with one arm and you shoot it.

It's really a stupid thing to do. You can't control the weapon at all. Two of them? Dude, what are you fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger? Like, to do. You can't control the weapon at all. Two of them? Yeah. Dude, what are you, fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger? Like, nah, they're the gun. These are the guns. What are you kidding me?

These are my guns. I am holding my guns with my guns. Come with me if you want to live. It says they're supposed to be hidden within the church, but within easy reach of members of the security team and make sure they're well-trained in how to use them. Again, what is happening in your churches jesus number four is wear soft body armor under your suit come on everybody here

who's reading this is soft are you kidding basically saying wear soft armor to to deflect any of your uh any any bullets when they come in with ak-47s in your fucking random little rural church right because that's where this would happen right that's a nobody in a church where people get an education we follow these i guarantee if you go to say um holy name in chicago there's a sign on the door it says no guns uh all competent adults in the congregation should be armed jesus christ how many guns you need in there all guns. And can you imagine what would happen if there was one misfire

or something and then all pull out and just start shooting each other? It's like, There was a firefight! No kidding, right? I don't understand the level of alarm that many people who conceal carry

and or talk about this stuff uh it's so paranoid they are they are under the illusion that we are so in danger at any moment and and they are also under the illusion that all of them are dirty harry right exactly they're all going to be fine they've got they've got two paranoid like they have a paranoid delusion and they've got a fucking wet dream fantasy the paranoid delusion is that we're constantly under actual threat on a daily basis on an individualized level from terrorists, right? And that's just not the case. It's just not. You're more likely to get fucking stung by bees and eaten by sharks at the same time than you are to be killed by a terrorist in America.

And then they also think that like, oh, they're all going to have their fucking shitty fucking handgun and they're going to be the one who saves the day they're all save the day guys the bible says they're going to eat their arms the bible says they're going to eat their babies then it says they're going to eat their children that's what people do when they get hungry so this story this is jim baker uh people are trying to kill me for believing the bible cecil why are you shaking your head that's not because jim baker's a hundred years old like real jim he'll be super easy to kill that's the thing like you don't have to try to kill Jim Baker. He just sort of like

light a fucking bottle rocket in the general vicinity. It's not the most dangerous game. He's like the barely active game. It's like when they release the pigeon right next to you and you just blow it right out of the sky. Just like, yeah. That really wasn't all that fun.

Do you remember like fucking people that were taking the when we went hunting that one time and they had buckets full of dubs and they just sat on the bottom and they were throwing buckets of dubs off the thing we're just blowing them out of the sky repeatedly shooting as a fucking rain of falling dubs falls what do they call like a tower shoot i don't even know it was called like a tower shoot asshole shoot is what it's called they should do that with crows because it'd be a murder of crows it certainly would be they're just sitting underneath them blowing them up it was just mean i should do that with pork i was just thinking you imagine i was just saying you imagine that with any other animal it just got like a bucket of raccoons.

I think that is a group of raccoons, actually. A bucket of raccoons. If you disagree today with somebody who disagrees with the Bible and you... Wait. If I disagree with somebody that disagrees with the Bible. Right. So basically you're saying I love the Bible. It's a double negative. Why do you do that? Like my brain shuts down as soon

as I hear that shit. You speak but they have an agenda and if you won't stop they are going to kill you. What? Again, sometimes right wind watch does not nail it. Their quotes up here, sometimes really far off. This one, pretty much what he said.

They could have actually made it even worse than what they did. Do you understand this? You understand this. I do. I've had death threats. What? Nobody would threaten. Nobody knows who you are. What are they going to say? Eddie Mun this? I do. I've had death threats. From what? Nobody would threaten. Nobody knows who you are.

What are they going to say? Eddie Munster, I'm coming after you? What do they say? We have never lived in a day of our time in our history of America where you couldn't have an opposite opinion. Now, they're determined to wipe out all of those who disagree with them. I mean, that to me is a hideous. It's a hideous. It is a hideous.

It is a hideous. Look, it's the singular of hideous. Hey, can you bring me that hideous over there? It's not hideous. It's hideous. Thank you very much. Again, is it something you can have a bucket of? Can you get a Jim Baker slop bucket of hideous?

Oh, wait, that's every get a Jim Baker slop bucket of hideous? Oh, wait. That's every one of Jim Baker's slop buckets. And just like I was talking about, protesting is one thing. If you do it quietly and you're going to say, hold up a sign and say, I don't agree with you. Why do I have to be quiet? Why do I have to fucking protest as loudly as I'd like? Thank you very much. Why do I have to be quiet about my protest?

Well, because it upsets him. It bothers him. It's interrupting something you like. You're interrupting Matlock? He's going to joke on his Werther's Originals. His fucking plastic wife is behind him beating on his stomach

trying to Heimlich the thing out of there. Killing you. Yeah. And that's what they're calling for now. They're calling for death. And the death is terrorism. The death is to scare you so you will step back into the shadows. Right.

But this is police officers. so you will step back into the shadows. But this is police officers. What they're showing on the screen right now is three police officers fatally shot in Baton Rouge, dead suspect identified, something else was like... Yeah, it's like black people calling for... Yeah, but it has nothing to do with just like, I disagree with you, so I'm going to go kill a Christian.

It has nothing to do with it. It has literally no thing to do with that there is no correlation whatsoever i want to talk real quick about um about that sort of what they're what they're they're doing what i think we get a lot of messages about this about black lives matter about sort of those things a lot of people think that um think that our position on black lives matter is the wrong position they think that um position on Black Lives Matter is the wrong position. They think that what Black Lives Matter is, is a radical organization that is out to injure and damage and really just cause mayhem. And there's no sort of beneficent goal behind what they're doing what

they are trying to do is damage other people and especially damage white people that's what their goal is really to do and uh and damage police officers it's another thing that they've they've sort of they've said that they've gone out to call after and it's funny that we'll get messages all the time when people be like you're del. How deluded can you be about this? How deluded can you be and stuff? And what they're allowed to do is pick and choose out of these enormous protests. I mean, these protests are huge that they're having. Where they're having, you know.

Yeah, hundreds, sometimes thousands of people. Thousands of people are marching. Sometimes probably closer to, you know, like into the thousands. We're talking thousands of people are marching. And then they'll record one or two people saying something. You'll get your recording of it. And they're allowed to paint the entire organization, even though the organization has come out and said, we're not, I mean, now I know that there are some people in Black Lives Matter

who have said, you know, that they are for, you know, hurting other people. They're for violence. And I think that that's detest the test that's the test but when people are just protesting and i don't care if your protest fucking uh inconveniences someone like fucking that's what a protest is like i like everybody just has this idea that what we're supposed to do is we're supposed to protest but we're supposed to do it over there and we're supposed to be real, real nice about it. Yeah, go into the protest zone and sit quietly and hand out lemonade. That's not how protest works.

Well, and a friend of mine posted on Facebook recently. He said they've been very good about this sort of thing for many years and it hasn't helped them right like being good about protests and sort of you know following all the rules about protesting hasn't done anything for him yet so if if that's not and it hasn't convinced us to do anything about it either right as allies of the cause and that's the thing is we could say we're allies all day but once you start inconveniencing us now maybe it starts really making us pay attention right that's why when people flip their shit over like oh my god i can't believe they fucking shut down a freeway it's like well i don't think that those people don't deserve to get arrested like don't get me wrong like fucking you did that yeah absolutely you should get arrested but to say like like it just feels

like what are you gonna do shoot them like what are you saying right well and there there is there is in this country a wonderful uh tradition of civil disobedience that is part of our – I mean it's really woven into our culture of protest, right? One of the great things about being a citizen in this country is that we have the right to protest. We have the right to assemble. We have the right to raise our voices alone and in solidarity with others to speak about the causes that we're passionate about. And if we're going to go out and we're going to block the fucking freeway, that's a relatively – yeah, they're going to come out and they're going to arrest you and they're going to process you and they're going to let you go. It's a symbolic gesture. The whole thing is symbolic.

And there's a world of difference between doing something like that and burning something or hurting somebody or killing somebody, right? But the backlash attempts to draw – all illegal activity is one and the same, right? All illegal activity is illegal and we can just say it's bad and we should stop doing it and there's no merit in civil disobedience. There's no merit in protests that inconvenience and shut down minor infrastructure, things along those lines where nothing is really damaged. What they want to do is do a one-to-one comparison, put a big equal sign where things are not in fact equal. Sure. And ignore the context of the situation.

And that's absurd. It's just absurd. And what is amazing too and this the colin kaepernick have you heard of this story no so colin kaepernick is a a quarterback for was like he's like a second string quarterback now for the 49ers he didn't stand during the national anthem so they had the national anthem didn't stand during it the reporters immediately after the thing came out to him why didn't you stand and he said well i don't think that the way people are being treated in this country merits me standing now clearly i am paraphrasing what he said but he essentially said that like i i feel

like there's so much oppression happening that i feel like it would be hypocrisy to stand essentially and uh and everybody's giving him shit about it i fought and died for your your ability to fucking you know people have fought and died for your, your, your ability to fucking, you know, people have fought and died for your ability to, to, to not stand during that thing. And how dare you? Blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera. They're going on and on and on. And I saw a tweet that was perfect.

And it was, you know, essentially, Hey, black people, why don't you protest, uh, you know, quietly. And then Colin Kaepernick doesn't do anything except for not stand for the thing it's like well not like that you know what i mean like and that's exactly it right it's this idea that no matter what people do if they are protesting they are abhorrent almost definitionally cecil all protests come from a minority class right right so what is a minority class supposed to do get the permission from the majority and say, hey, guys, how would you like me to engage this protest for you?

I am protesting basically you. Will you tell me how, when, where, and why I have to do it? Is there any way that you – It's an absurd concept. Is there anything I can fill out and triplicate? Yeah. Oh, I guess you guys don't like the way that I don't like you? Tell me how I should not like you differently.

That's a fucking retarded thing to say. But there's a lot of pushback from this and people really don't like that we are open to the idea that people should protest when there's some pretty – some stuff that's happening in the black community that is I mean, it's evident. Now, do I think that it's, I think we've talked about on the show a couple of times that, you know, maybe the killings aren't racist. They're just gun motivated. You know what I mean? There's a good possibility. But the percentages of people dying

based on that is based on an algorithm that is heavily swayed towards black people based on racial profiling. So when they die in greater numbers – greater percentages, not greater numbers, but greater percentages – they die in those greater percentages because they are more likely to be pulled over than I am and more likely to have an escalation than I am. And there was actually – I'll plug it for him. Atheistically speaking, Thomas had a really great show recently. Actually, two of them. I listened to those.

Two shows. He had two really great shows where he had a couple of different people who had very different views on Black Lives Matter. I would encourage you guys to check it out. I think they did a really nice job of moderating that conversation. Want to contact the guys? I would encourage you guys to check it out. I think they did a really nice job of moderating that conversation. Want to contact the guys? Go to DissonancePod.com to get links to their Google+, Facebook, and Twitter accounts.

If you want to contact them directly, send an email to Dissonance.Podcast at gmail.com. Or you can call and leave a message at 740-74-DOUBT. That's 740-743-6828. Do you want to support the show? Go to patreon.com. That's p-a-t-r-e-o-n dot com forward slash dissonance pod. Or click the link on the podcast homepage and you can donate to the production

of Cognitive Dissonance on a per episode basis. If you can't spare any money, take a second to give us a five-star review on iTunes or Stitcher, or spread the word about the show. We want to send a big heartfelt glory hole to all the patrons and people who rate us. You fucking rock. So we are joined by both of the hosts of the opening arguments podcast, Thomas, who does a myriad of other podcasts, and Andrew Torres. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us.

Thanks for having us on. Thank you so much for having us on. So we sent you guys some David Icke to read. Did you read the Icke that we sent? Well, after I went on your show last, I couldn't put it down. I just had to get to the ending of that thing it is a scintillating read so we will be getting into actually we'll be tangenting in 10 tangenting is that i feel like we can just make that up we can verb tangent i like that tangenting we're gonna be moving on

into some of that later on but we want to talk a little bit about your podcast uh it's brand new and thomas you have uh you have been uh a podcasting uh sort of uh yeah i was gonna say like overworked underpaid podcaster for a very long time well you've you've got now four podcasts i seriously have no idea idea how you have time for all that stuff. And Opening Arguments, which is brand new, already has like five fucking episodes. Nice try. Try nine. What are you fucking kidding me? He only listened to two of them.

You just started the podcast 20 minutes ago. How is that even possible? Hard work. Elbow grease. Jesus. Yeah, we wanted to launch with a few so we stored them up for a little bit. You like storming your cheeks?

Like acorns? Talking to them in a tree? That's the only way it makes sense. Thomas just hit a tree full of podcasts in the backyard. He pulls podcasts out of his mouth. I guess he's got chipmunks. You were generous with mouth. I keister podcasts in order to smuggle them around.

It's such an old-fashioned word. So tell us about opening arguments. We know about all your other podcasts. What about opening arguments? Yeah, we've already plugged all of his other podcasts. Maybe I'll plug the new one. I should definitely talk about it because Andrew essentially is the podcast. So that's why.

I'm the showman. You're like his manager if this was WWE. You're the PT Barnum for his freak show. Now entering the podcast octagon is one Andrew Torres, who I had him on, atheistically speaking, several times, and he would take us through these just fascinating legal journeys that you wouldn't, I mean, paper, it sounds kind of boring. Like, oh, you know, and look at – just look at Andrew.

He looks kind of boring. Kind of? He doesn't look kind of boring. Tabula Rasa, man. That guy's a blank slate. So everything about Andrew on paper is boring. But then he starts talking and he takes us through the whole history of like the Second Amendment. I don't know if you heard this, but there is a really funny factoid that he got me on with the Second Amendment, which was – and I'll screw this up. But he asked me how many Second Amendment Supreme Court cases do you think there were before, what, 2012 was it, Andrew?

2008. 2008. Supreme Court cases do you think there were before what 2012 was it in 2008 2008 and I already knew like oh he's trying to make a point so I don't know like I'm guessing it's either a million or or you know like 10 so I was like I I don't know I'll guess eight and then he's like try you know zero or whatever try one and and it's a it's stuff like that where we have no idea is it zero or one? it's one you couldn't remember one Thomas? the number is one look I have a lot of podcasts

Thomas the loneliest number that's true don't I know it I heard gam all the divorce jokes have already been made. No, I haven't. We'll keep making them. No, no.

They kind of write themselves. I'll make them through the second one, too. But isn't that fascinating? One Supreme Court case on the Second Amendment prior to 2008. Would you have ever guessed that? I wouldn't have. Maybe I'm living in a bubble. What was the Supreme Court case?

I never guessed that. I wouldn't have. Maybe I'm living in a bubble. What was the Supreme Court case? Yeah, it's actually a sawed-off shotgun case from 1938 that upheld the ban on sawed-off shotguns. So for 200 years, the entirety of what the Supreme Court said about the Second Amendment was, you know what? It's okay to ban sawed-off shotguns. And you would never know that from, I don't know, the current status of our political discourse. Absolutely, yeah. But although, didn't Chicago make it in there? Did Chicago's ban on handguns make it there after 2008?

Or Washington, D.C.? One of them. I thought it was D.C. And then Chicago turned over because of D.C.? D.C. versus Heller? Is that it? There you go. You remember these things.

Thomas is getting close to an honorary law degree. Right, that's why we cut it off. Yeah, I'm just trying to earn credits. That's the only reason we started this. You're getting parents' credits? He's auditing the class. It's the only class I've ever showed up to on time. He gets to put JD after his name, but it's a small J.

He can legally call himself Esquire, though. So he should do that. Whoa, I can't? Hold on. Are you kidding me? Yeah, absolutely. You can, but you have to help a knight onto his horse. Yes. You have to eject a horse. We need to

re-do... It's kind of a thing. I insist on being introduced now as thomas smith esquire we need to redo it re-roll it guys roll it back talk a little bit about uh you guys you guys well i was listening to it and uh and very cleverly you guys use some uh some simpsons uh little clips to introduce your stuff i mean very original stuff that you do there who would have uh who would have thought to use it? Oh, yeah.

You guys invented the fucking Simpsons. Yeah, sure. I love that he's like, fuck you guys. Fuck you guys. You guys know who I hate. You guys. It's so funny. But so let's talk about some of the stuff that you guys have covered already.

So now you said you're 10 podcasts in at this point. You covered the Bush election? Yeah, we did a four-part episode on the 2000 election because of the parallels to the current election. Really, I mean, what I wanted people to understand from the 2000 election was just how unpredictable the final result was based on the data going into it, right? So everybody knows about Florida, and obviously we go through the hanging chads and all of those things. But there are a whole bunch of states that turned out to be crucial that nobody thought – because the ultimate election turned on three electoral votes – that nobody thought could have possibly been an issue, right? So West Virginia, which went for Michael D possibly been an issue, right? So West Virginia, which went for Michael Dukakis in 1988, right? Like, I mean, it's one of the most reliably democratic

states, you know, in the country, a week before the election wound up going for Bush, right? I mean, it was a place that the Gore campaign totally ignored, they thought they had in the bag, there was no press about that whatsoever. So when I see people talking about like, oh, well, you know, I live in South Carolina, so it's okay for me to vote for Gary Johnson. Or, you know, I live in Connecticut, so I'm not too worried about voting for Jill Stein. Like, you don't know that, right? And that was one of the, you know, sort of themes that came through from 2000. I say that all the time about Trump. I say, I could vote for whoever I want in Illinois. There's no way we're going to

flip over for Trump here. You guys are in Illinois. Thomas is in California. I'm in Maryland. Those are three of maybe eight exceptions to the rule, right? New York would be one. Do you think it's only eight? Do you think it's really that

small out of the 50? Do you think it's only eight? Do you think it's really that small out of the 50? Do you think there's only eight or so locked down blue that they just are not going to flip it? Do you really think it's that low? If you go to like 538.com, you can play around. You can change the demographics and change the turnout model. You can change the margin of victory. And once you start cranking that a little bit, you start getting weird results, right? Like all of a sudden, Clinton winning Kansas,

or if you go the other direction, Trump winning Connecticut. And so I look at so many other- I just had a stroke. You said Trump. Tom started to shut down like an android. He was just like a stroke. You said stroke. Tom started to shut down like an android. He was just like, wow. Yeah, I mean, because New England is really, really liberal, you think about it as being kind of a reliable liberal nation. But it's also really, really white. Yeah. I mean, it's just all of the polls, all of everything is, you know, are sort of predicated on turnout models that I mean, I don't know how confident are you that turnout models are going to work in this election? You know, that's a good point.

I think this is going to be one of the lowest turnout elections that we've ever had. I think this might be the lowest turnout election we've ever had. Wow. I would I'd be willing to bet on that. And nobody's excited on either side. And that plays into Trump, though it don't you think no low turnout no i don't think so no i i just think the the i i think of the racist conservative vote is like those fuckers always vote like they never they're a given and then everybody else maybe doesn't vote so it's raining on election day they're gonna be there for sure. Yeah, exactly.

I'm going to get out of my truck now. Just imagine if they're so motivated that they can be mad at Colin Kaepernick for nothing. Then they can be – I'm not talking about this. Yeah, yeah. Then they certainly can work up the rage to walk to the polling place on Election Day. The Colin Kaepernick thing i mean to me if if he doesn't sign you know he's obviously going to get cut but if if minnesota

doesn't sign him then i think we can all say there's institutionalized racism in the nfl right like i mean that there's there's no doubt about that i think i i mean i well do you think that it's again a business just saying fucking i don't want this bad press instead of institutionalized racism. We actually did an NFL episode. So I would want to talk to my lawyer NFL expert. But my instinct – He's lawyering up on that question. The lawyer is lawyering up.

It's like a fucking endless regression. We do that sort of thing. It's like a Russian nesting doll of lawyers. You can keep it perpetually and then he can never answer a question. Well, no, because what I'm going to say is something that is true for 29 of 30 MLB teams, which is where I've actually done some work. I have some Major League Baseball clients. And so in general, the correlation between winning and revenue in major league baseball is really, really strong

for 29 out of 30 teams. It's not true for the Tampa Bay Rays for reasons that are not important right now. And I think that's equally the case with the NFL, right? So in other words, if, you know, if Kaepernick is the difference between going one and 15 and going six and 10, right, that that's got to outweigh from what I'm to understand, he's not the difference, though. No, he already was not going to make the team before this. He really is. So from an employee standpoint, he's a liability. He's a mediocre player, right?

So if I have somebody on my staff and they're mediocre and I'm going to get some bad press because of them and they're not going to do anything all that great for me. I'd fucking jettison them like a fucking hot potato. And the NFL fucking is down on their knees ready to fucking take fucking shaft balls deep of every single patriot soldier that's ever been around. Oh, right. You know what I mean? So they are ready to – that is their demographic. And they would never hurt that demographic for anything. Did you hear that the station was not going to air the – I called it the Pledge of Allegiance.

And then I thought it was so funny. That would be so awesome if everybody stood up. The idea of them all doing the Pledge of Allegiance. The flag comes out. Everybody stands up. They put their hands over their hearts. Come on, allegiance. The flag comes out. The flag of allegiance. They're handing over their hearts. Come on, Colin. Come on, Colin.

That would be awesome. Right afterwards, they say the rosary. Just that Lee Greenwood song comes on. That's it. But, yeah, the station is not going to air the national anthem before the next 49ers game, I think, because they're so worried about the controversy. So clearly there's a big component of the demographic of that. Sure, there's revenue, I think, incentive too for them. Liberals are really winning the meme war, but I don't know if we're –

I'm not sure that's really winning. I don't know if we're winning the clone war, but – The clone war. But the last meme I saw was Congress, like during the – like either the national anthem or the pledge or something. Like only half of them are standing and the rest of them are like sitting down. The rest of them are so old they can't stand up in time. They don't give a shit. The racism comes to where they only criticize people when they happen to be a different skin tone from them.

It's not like you could say for an individual person like, oh, he's definitely, he hates black people. It's just funny how you only start complaining about these things when it's a certain type of person, isn't it? So that's our show. That's it. That's the show. I didn't even finish telling my story, which was, I didn't

get past him being boring. No. So he came on Atheistically Speaking all the time and people just kept saying, ooh, come on, talk about this. Ooh, do this. Ooh, do this. And I was like, well, I can't. It wouldn't really be Atheistically Speaking if it was just Andrew Torres-lily speaking.

Andrew Torres-lily speaking. After enough suggestions, Andrew came up to me online anyway, messaged me and said, what do you think? Should we start a show? And I was like, man, I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that because I'm an asshole with three podcasts already. Because whenever anybody asks you to do a show, you have to do it.

Yeah, exactly. I'm like Will Ferrell and Austin Powers. Exactly. Damn, three times. So email Thomas at atheisticallyaking at gmail.com. I'll be back next week plugging 42,000 other shows. But no, it was just such a good opportunity that there's no way – I mean because I could listen to Andrew forever and I have. And that's why we have nine episodes of opening arguments out and I've enjoyed every minute of it.

We have nine episodes of opening arguments out and I've enjoyed every minute of it. And we seriously, the tagline or the, what would you call it? The joke of our show is that every episode we end up with like four more topics than we started. Because as he starts down the road of, oh, you know, this such and such case or, oh, you know, talking about this concept. It's always like, oh, that would be a great idea for an episode. And there's just so much. I think we made a list. Andrew made a list. And I think we're already out like a year's worth of topics.

Jesus. We're trying to get to next Wednesday. Yeah, I know. Like by Monday, I'm like, I don't know what we're doing on Wednesday. You guys are like, I don't think this show is going to last. Maybe two. If all of a sudden everybody just behaves, we're shit out of luck.

So, Andrew, I've got to ask a question, though. What made you choose doing a podcast with Thomas instead of say, David Smalley or something like that? Like some big name in podcasting. I mean, I'm sure you were sort of –

Well, there are two reasons. Attainability. Yeah, I'm really attainable. That's the thing. No, seriously, I think Thomas is not just the best interviewer out there in podcasting, but one of the best interviewers I've ever had a chance to work with. He's our little Terry Gross. He is he is very good he's better than the dogs in the background yeah i know i know that's most of what the skill is working through the dog no but seriously i mean thomas is a terrific interviewer you know that and when i get sort of off down a rabbit

hole and i've spent six minutes you you know, explaining standing or something that I couldn't think anyone on earth would be interested in. Thomas will have this like fantastic question about like, oh, this kind of reminds me of X. And like it will, I'll stop and say, I never thought about it like that before. Even when we were, if you listen to our first episode, all our idea was that we were going to introduce our segments. And one of our segments was, is called, are you a cop? Which is dedicated to the idea of sort of,

you know, breaking down legal myths that everybody knows that aren't true. Like, are you a cop? You have to say yes. And, and so I thought I would say like 30 seconds of basically, no, that's the definition of being an undercover officer, right? Like they get to lie to you.

And Thomas just had like a dozen great questions about like, well, do you think it was the cops who started this to begin? All kinds of things that just never occurred to me. So, yeah, like, and I mean, that's been great. And believe me, I know when I have not had an interviewer like Thomas to sort of prompt me, I am as boring as the photo and as boring as you would think. So it really, he really makes the most out of whatever I'm bringing to it. Do you know a lot about what's happening with the Bible Reloaded guys? I know, well, there are a couple of things there.

So the first is, I mean, no, I don't have any inside information that wasn't on, you know, the Scathing Atheist podcast, for example. And number two, they've been really close to the vest. If you listen to that interview, they said, we don't want to talk about what our strategy is. And I guess I take it they haven't filed their complaint yet. I don't know why that would be. When I'm about to file a complaint, that's going to be a public document.

So it's not like there's some sort of hidden double secret strategy that you can have by not saying what you're going to file in your complaint. But so, I mean, the bottom line is – Right, because that's the first move, right? It's not like – it's like if you – you could play chess with a guy and tell him like, hey, I'm white. My first move is going to be this. There's nothing he can do. I'm white. My first move is going to be this. There's nothing he can do. I'm white. My first move is to oppress you.

What I'm going to do is build a system you can't possibly work with. Over here where all my pizzas are, we have grocery stores. I'm pretty sure that's how Kasparov won every game that he played. He was like, I am system. Oh, I suppose now is probably a good time for the recurring disclaimer from our podcast, which is you should not take legal advice from a podcast. You know, when I do these. Mental note, I will be taking all of my legal advice from this podcast. You know, when I do these – Mental note, I will be taking all of my legal advice from this podcast.

This communication does not create an attorney-client relationship. And, you know, we're just talking about this for fun. So that being said, in the abstract, there are, in addition to – right, the Bible Reloaded guys talked a lot about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. But there's also, at least from the facts that have been presented, it seems to me a pretty straightforward tort claim. And that tort is called tortious interference. And basically, if you have a contract with somebody else, I can't come along and screw that up. I thought that was how Harry Potter casts a Patronus.

Isn't that? I thought that's what. Interferus! This is exactly what recording opening arguments is like, by the way. All the time. Don't worry. I edit out most of my shitty jokes. I hope you guys will, too.

No. If we edit out all of our shitty jokes, it'd just be fucking blank, dead airspace. That's not a thing. I was going to make a chocolate tort joke. I think mine was like 0.1 better than the chocolate tort joke. I'm letting you go. I'm still referring to mine. In any event, I mean, if I were a plaintiff's lawyer on behalf of somebody who was injured, essentially, you know, the baseline that you as a lawyer always use is you want to plead the maximum number of plausible claims that you can against the maximum number of parties that you can. Right? You sort of sue everybody first and let God figure it out later. Right?

The shotgun approach. Yeah, exactly. And the reason is because so long as it's cognizable, so long as it's within the bounds of legal ethics, you shape your claims. And as the lawsuit progresses, you may find out different facts. You may say, oh, look, we thought this might be the case, but it turns out facts don't support it no harm no foul to drop claims out but there are restrictions on how and when you can amend to add claims in right so can i interrupt real quick i i have some experience getting sued at work all the time i work for a huge company so like i work for a fortune 300 company we're just we're just a huge player in our industry. And so the shotgun approach hits us all the time.

We get hit. We get fucked. We have deep pockets. We're a big company. And we just – like companies like ours just pay out just to get off the lawsuit. Like even when the facts don't support it because even when you win the case, you still lose because you have to spend all that time and money defending. And like there's something about that approach that strikes me as – I mean I understand why you would do it, but it also strikes me as kind of horrifyingly unethical sometimes too. Well, let me put a positive spin on it from our recent episode because Andrew pointed out that it also worked this way for Roe v. Wade.

Because Andrew pointed out that it also worked this way for Roe v. Wade. So in order to try to get that overturned, Roe and that legal team involved a lot of different people in the suit that didn't end up mattering. So they involved the doctor. Now, they weren't suing the doctor, but they were involving the doctor in the claim. They were involving a married couple in the original claim. during the claim. They were involving a married couple in the original claim. The reason is because you never know what some judge is going to find the most compelling

argument. There is a positive aspect to it too, but of course, I'm sure Andrew would be the first to tell you that it's not as though all lawsuits are ethical. I'm just kind of pointing it out. It happens all the time where it's like, well, fucking – what did we just pay out for that thing?

We didn't even do anything. But it happens constantly. It's just kind of interesting. Yeah, there are a couple of things there. I mean the first is when your lawsuit is seeking essentially nuisance value, right? And for a Fortune 300 company like yours, I mean, that would be – if the demand or what it would reasonably take to settle the case is $20,000 or less. Right. We just pay it out.

Yeah. And that's – again, that's just an economic calculation because as soon as you've started talking to outside litigation counsel, this being what I did for the first 20 years of my life. Right. You know, the meter is running and you've spent, you know, five figures before you could even think about it. From zero to 20 in his life, he was doing that. But this is also a new revenue stream for our podcast, by the way. We're going to be – hey, Andrew, what do you think we should sue Cogdiss for that they would just buy us off and not bother?

We'll find an amount. Judging by how quickly they're growing, we know they're hiring an assistant. Sue us for an assistant? You better fill out that paperwork, guys. You better be really clear with your paperwork. I feel like this is backwards. The assistant will certainly sue us

at some point. Especially if it's some dude we're grabbing his tits all the time. It'd be awesome. I may or may not advise your incoming assistant on workplace harassment, wage and hour laws.

Whose side are you on? Let's talk a little bit about we had you on last time when you didn't read David Icke, Thomas. I skimmed it. I know. I know. Parts of it you sure did. And so we wanted to talk a little bit about some of the David Icke stuff that we've been reading recently, specifically the sovereign citizen stuff. So what about, let's talk a little bit about the non-paying of taxes, because David Icke talks, in his book, he says something to the effect of paying taxes is a fraud. You don't have to do it. It's not even, you don't even have to

do it. And I know that there's an amendment that sort of talks about taxation, but I'm not completely familiar with it. Yeah, I want to say that I was listening to that show. I heard you guys say that, and I thought, ooh, this is a perfect topic for opening arguments. But hey, as you heard, we've got too many topics. So I thought, fuck it, let's talk about it on this show. And by that, I mean, hey, Andrew, is there a law that says you don't have to pay your taxes?

Because I had a buddy who was getting into that kind of conspiracy theory crap who's like, you know, it's just because they got all the guns, man. That is actually a very compelling. When the other guy has all the guns, like, oh, all right, well, I'll be doing what he says. It is a shockingly good reason for compliance. But I mean, I think that all of the sovereign citizen sort of weird tax protester movement, right order, then the hell side opens up like open sesame, right? And so they really have this idea that like the government is out to screw you. But if you go into court and you say, ah, admiralty court, gold fringe on the flag, like then all of a sudden everyone bows down and you don't have to pay your taxes anymore. It's just bizarre. So let's start.

Is there a law that says you have to pay your taxes? Sure. There's a law, the IRS code. It's 26 USC 1. And it starts with, there is hereby imposed on the taxable income of, and then it goes through, individuals, married individuals, head of household, unmarried person, everything that you might check on your tax form. I mean, like, it could not be more clear. But what the sovereign citizen folks have done is there's a Supreme Court decision. Okay, it's called Flora versus United States.

It's a 1960 case. And in the case, here's what the Supreme Court said. And again, any of the three of you, just a person whose last name was Flora. Those plants didn't want to pay taxes. Plants versus zombies. The IRS was

trying to get taxes out of the fucking plants. That's what happened. We've had enough. You can't get blood from a stone! Jesus! But if you can get taxed from a plant like what chance do you what chance do you have you know mr colorado got a lot of taxes so so here's what the supreme court said you'll see why it's misused but uh i don't think it'll be hard for any of you to figure out why this is being misused. So here's what the Supreme Court said.

Our tax system is based upon voluntary assessment and payment and not upon distraint. And that's the sentence that's quoted. In fact, if you Google Flora versus United States, you'll get – I kind of need to Google distraint. I've never heard that. Yes, of course you do, right? Because you're reading that and you're like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, big word. And so to the tax protester people, they're like, well, look, it says voluntary assessment. So I know what voluntary means, right? That means not mandatory. So you don't have to pay your taxes. at is the contrast word, which is the word distraint, which is a real old-timey legal word that means coming in and taking your stuff, right? So it used to be that landlords, right, for example, if you didn't pay your rent, had

the right of distraint. They could come in and, you know, you've been three months late on your rent, you skip town, they can seize all your stuff and sell it and use that against the proceeds of what you owe. Now, most states have long since abolished that right except in some commercial situations. And your topic idea, how to fucking kick out a tenant in California, it's actually impossible. Yeah, yeah. It can't be done.

They just own your house. I'm actually – I'm telling you. If someone rents from you and they just stop paying, they have like six years to get out of here. It's a joke. I can actually sleep with your wife the entire time too. I have actually – I mean no kidding. I am advising a client in California who's doing that with an Airbnb set up right now.

So we can talk offline. Airbnb. Airbnb. Big turkey. It shows up and it's like you're not leaving. He's squatting. I wish it was this funny. It's actually pathetic.

Like I know I had a friend who like had a tenant who just refused to pay rent and you get fucked over. So anyway, future show. Yeah. Airbnb, I'm sorry. That's so funny. It is pretty funny. You show up for vacation. You have your mail forward.

That's like one step away from having like just a dude show up at your house and say hi and like step inside and like, hey, I'm staying here now. I'm just going to live in the holiday inn and they can't kick me out. There are cities where it is almost at that level, right? Like in Boston, for example. Yeah, there is a, at least this was the case 20 years ago. I don't know if they've amended the law since then, but there was a, essentially a statute passed that said you couldn't make someone homeless. And you might imagine kicking people out of a place where they're not paying rent often makes them homeless.

So- Be some prosecution against Tom's ex, right? Oh, shit. So good thing he got divorced in Chicago. But yeah, right. So anyway, back to the Flora decision, right? Like, so tax protesters read that and say, well, it says our tax system is voluntary and they just don't bother looking up that last word, right?

And so, I mean, what the court is saying is, yes, it's voluntary in the sense that the government depends upon you to voluntarily record what you earned on your tax form. But that doesn't mean that if you write in a zero, they can't send you to jail for that. It's voluntary reporting and it's voluntary as opposed to coming in and stealing your stuff. They're not sending shock troops in to take your stereo. But it's not voluntary as in,

oh, well, if I just say I don't want to pay taxes anymore, I don't have to. So I can't say negative 500 million and then collect a bunch of bad damage. My tax refund's going to be huge. There is. I don't want to be taxed on your income, just put a zero down. And people do this, and the IRS not only requires them to put down what they actually owe but hits them with a huge fine. Sure, a fine or something, yeah. When you try to ride the L in Chicago, it's essentially fucking like trying to get into a jail, right? So like you have to put a thing in there and you have to talk to a guard and

then you have to give him some cigarettes and then you might be able to get through a thing that can get you through another thing that you eventually can get on the train for. Smuggle podcasts in your ass. But when I was overseas, I think I was in Vienna and, and I walked up and I had my ticket. They said,

buy your tickets. I go buy my ticket and I walk up and there's just this big wide open area where you don't have to do anything with the ticket and i was like why do i have to buy a ticket show anybody but it is essentially is they can question anybody on that train and be like do you have your ticket and if you don't it's like 50 euros or something right fine you but you know you. But there's nothing stopping you from breaking the law. Like in Chicago, they're like, fucking, you can't break the law. There's no way to get past it. We got fucking dogs and lights and fucking tasers and whatever to get you so you can't get past here.

But over in Vienna, they're like, yeah, you can get on. We're just going to fucking – we're going to bust you if you do. And it's essentially the same thing. It's like, go ahead. You have your opportunity to lie to us. But if you do understand there's consequences right right but let me ask you this andrew was that specific sentence was it related to like what grounds they tried to sue the government on so like was it is that why it was

phrased in that specific way yeah of course it was right like and so i i asked the obvious questions that's what i'm here's a softball for you. No, but I mean that's why – it occurs to me that like they must have tried to sue on the grounds of like, oh, some weird amendment that – or like the amendment that says you can't quarter troops in your house or something. Right. Something like that where it's like, wow, these taxes is practically that. Yeah, and so courts have actually tackled people who have tried to make this argument. There was a guy in the 1980s,

his name was Erwin Schiff. And shockingly, he spent time in jail for counseling and selling people a book that said, you don't have to pay your taxes because of these crazy theories. And so there's a case there. In fact, there are like a dozen cases that bear his name on it,

because even after he kept losing in court, he kept coming out saying, well, I actually won, except for the part where they're going to make me pay this money and serve time in prison. I feel like that's not how you win anything. Yeah, it's you should have seen the other guy defend. Well, sure, I'm in jail, but the government is too. They have a longer jail sentence, so I won't sue.

So now an actual appellate court was forced to say, to the extent that income taxes are said to be, quote, voluntary, they're only voluntary in that one files the returns and pays the taxes without the IRS first telling each individual the amount due and then forcing payment of that amount the payment of income taxes is not optional however and the average citizen knows that the payment of income taxes is legally required and that by the way is what passes for humor among judges we're not my favorite part this is my favorite part of the show i'm telling you andrew will start talking and i can tell that he's reading in a way that he thinks is hilarious. This is golden stuff, you guys. And then he'll realize that I'm just sitting there thinking this is just normal information.

Someone is just telling me. And then he'll be like, this is the fucking Louis C.K. of law right here. Someone has just fucking dropped the mic. Every lawyer reading that was like, oh, this is, I'm going to die. I can't. He's being passed around the office. Like, everyone's like, guys, guys, did you just see this?

Just straight. No, no, not everyone else. No. I want to ask a question, though, about, so the sovereign citizens are one part, but there's also this sort of, sort of fucking with police officers thing that gets posted on the internet all the time where people will like – an officer will come up to your car and they'll – like you roll down your window like a fucking itch or something like that. And then the guy is like – at least your driver's license will be registered.

They'll be like, I don't answer questions. They'll be like, am I being detained? Am I being detained? And they shout a bunch of shit and then they the police officer normally just gets really nervous and weirded out because they're recording the whole thing what is going on there like what is our what are do you know our rights in that situation like is that a first off it doesn't sound like a smart thing to do no right but but number two is that – like are these people who are just like itching to get dragged out of the car by their hair? Yes.

OK. So this is another good area to remind people don't take legal advice from a podcast. But the reason they're asking am I being detained is that when you are being questioned by an officer of the state, there are differing levels of escalation. So just being questioned requires a different standard for that police officer to prove if it later goes to court, why did you question this person? And then they've got to give an answer, right? To detain somebody requires a higher standard of evidence. And I should say, even more so than the, you know, typical don't take legal advice from

podcast, I'm not a criminal lawyer here. So my knowledge, I'm not going to go into what the specific standards are, because I'd be likely to get that wrong. But so I believe the standard for asking somebody a question or pulling somebody over is articulable suspicion, right? Which is what it sounds like. That is, can the police officer say, well, this is why I wanted to do X. But in order to drag somebody bus and then proceeded to search the tour bus, found all sorts of controlled dangerous substances on the tour bus

and was asked in court well what was your level of articulable suspicion to pull this over and how did this escalate and he was like well it was fucking Snoop Dogg's tour bus that's exactly right. He said, well, the fucking tires are made of drugs.

And he went on the stand and the cops said, well, given that it was Snoop Dogg and that he sings about smoking pot on the bus, I was pretty certain that there was going to be pot on the bus. And my understanding, again, subject to not a criminal lawyer, my understanding is that that flew, right? That was okay, you know, that the district court said, yep, we agree, it's a valid search. So what's going on? I mean, the bottom line is what's going on in those situations is kind of twofold.

Number one, you do have the right to know at what level of escalation your interaction is. In my mind, the wiser course, because it's not going to freak out a police officer. And I don't know, I mean, if you're really, really guilty, maybe, you know, freaking out the police officer and rolling the dice is something that appeals to you. But for the average person, I would think I would not want to do that. And so, you know, you do have what I would say is, you always have the right to invoke your Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination when you are being questioned by an agent of the state. And that goes to something like, again, don't take legal advice from a podcast, but it goes to something like, hey, do you know how fast you were driving? Or, hey, did you have anything to drink tonight?

You can always answer. I declined to answer and assert my Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination. And that will not freak out the cops because they know what that is. It's so funny how we talk about police officers. It's like they're fucking angry bears. The way we talk about it is like, so you just want to be real, real careful.

And you want to be real slow. And you don't want to make any special moves. And you want to talk in a soothing tone the whole time. It's so funny. I was laughing. Like fucking Terminators or something. That's why whenever i'm driving down the street i bang pots and pans together you know you want to start you want to light a flare and then throw it in the other direction and then he goes out well i was laughing at the articulable suspicion because i

was like oh what if i get a really inarticulate opposite? The judge is just like, I can't understand a fucking word you're saying. You get like Donald Trump. The poor guy's got laryngitis. Yes, I'm free to go. So we're going to be traveling to Europe soon. And we're going to be underneath a different type of libel law. Now, in the United States, I'm allowed to call someone a fraud, right? That's totally legal, right? I would say it this way. Particularly if you're talking about anybody

who is a public figure, you can pretty much say just about anything. The burden, I mean, I know you've probably heard of the New York Times. Can I interrupt? Sure. How do I know who's a public figure? I know that may be a stupid question, but I don't mean for it to be. What makes somebody a public figure? There's actually a well-developed body of case law to explain what that is. I love a well-developed body. This is kind of a recurring theme throughout opening arguments. The law means, in general, there are certain principles,

and then you look at how it's been applied in prior cases to figure out how it's going to be applied in the next case, right? So it builds on top of itself. And so when a statute says- Disclaimer, unless you're Scalia, and then you do whatever the fuck you want. That's a true story. No, no. You decide, oh, no, I know what the founders actually meant. I'm Scalia. I am God. So I'm just going to decide what they meant.

Well, it's okay because the founders recalled him. Come back to us, Scalia. They took their sweet time, didn't they? Jesus. It took them 80 fucking years. Yeah. The founders should have gotten their shit together. Get that recall effort going.

I'm so proud of Thomas, though. I mean, that was just perfect. Thanks, Dad. So, in other words, right, it's often the case that a law will use a phrase that's kind of vague, right? Like what is a public figure and – or in this case, a court decision. Or a well-regulated militia.

Yeah. There you go. Thomas and I did four hours on that. Yeah. Wow. It took you guys four hours to get a well-regulated militia going. She's come to Michigan and get it done in 30 minutes in the fucking Safeway Park. You order that shit from Domino's.

So in any event, what you would do to figure out what constitutes a public figure is look to the cases. And the cases basically say anybody that you think of as being a public figure, right, someone who is in the public eye and deliberately put themselves there. It's a little circular, right? It is. They count. And then, and this is the important part, and then there is a doctrine of limited purpose public figures who are maybe not nationally famous. maybe not nationally famous, but in the area in which you're communicating,

they would count as a public figure for purpose of the libel laws. So for example, if I'm on an atheist podcast and I want to say something negative about another prominent atheist podcaster, I don't know why I would want to do that. If that person... Just give us an example.

Yeah, just like a – Like if there was like some person you were going to – Some small example. Some very – yeah. Give us a tiny one. Fucking Seth Andrews. Some diminutive example. But let's take Seth Andrews because as far as I know, he's incredibly nice and there's no reason anyone would want to say anything negative about him.

Absolutely. I mean, Seth Andrews might not qualify as a public figure in the larger sense of the word, right? He's not a celebrity in the larger world. But in the world of atheist podcasting, he's absolutely a public figure. And so I would feel very confident saying all sorts of borderline libelous things about poor Seth Andrews because he's going very little recourse because of the limited public figure doctrine and because as long as I'm saying that in the arena in which he is a public figure, the courts have been pretty solidly think goes through most free speech cases is in this country, at least, you have a huge reluctance of any court, conservative, liberal, doesn't matter, to want to rule against free speech. So what about when we're talking about people overseas? So I'm sitting here in Chicago, right? I'm sitting in Chicago. I'm yammering into a microphone and I upload that shit and it's available for the entire world. And then I'm yammering about and saying just awful mean-spirited

shit about... Yeah, we've heard your show. About a public figure in, let's say, Iran, right? So could somebody... Or Britain. Let's say iran right so could somebody or britain let's say britain you know could somebody in britain and here i am sitting in the states could somebody in britain file suit from overseas how does that work can somebody file or do i have to go there first and then they can you know i mean like if i went to iran they would just arrest me and throw me in some fucking you know beat you up why the fuck would you go to iran there's no i don't even know why i used that that's why i scaled it back to britain because fuck would you go to Iran? I don't even know why I used that. That's why I scaled it back to Britain.

Because I would never go to Iran. There's no set of fucking life circumstances that would ever get me to Iran. Yeah, this one I will... I don't even want to go to Britain. I'm no interest in Britain, but I'm going to go anyway. I will break my disclaimer and offer you free legal advice

of don't go to Iran. So I can tell you how that works within the United States, which I think, and then sort of extrapolate out and tell you sort of the barriers. Within the United States, there are a lot of court decisions that say when you offer a product for sale over the internet, that you are availing yourself purpose Idaho and they wanted to sue you in Idaho and they could prove that they live in Idaho, they downloaded the podcast in Idaho, there is a good chance that – Good luck proving that. There's no internet there. But there is a good chance that a court would say, sorry, guys. You've got to show up in Idaho and defend yourself against this claim. How would you get there? The judge says that too.

Where do you have to fly into? Yeah, I'm so sorry, guys. I am really, really sorry. But you're going to have to go to Idaho. You have to ask somebody to refresh your memory on where it is. You got to fly to a neighboring state and drive over. Somebody to refresh your memory on where it is. You got to ride to a neighboring state and drive over. The guy delivers the paper.

He's like, hey, have you heard of something called Idaho? You guys are being sued there. I don't know what that means. Like some J.R.R. Tolkien place. Now, overseas, I think there are conditions on, you know, where there's a mutual agreement among profile, you know, deep web cases, right, like these child porn cases and all of that, why, you know, you can't track down, you know, X person in Finland and bring them back into the United States. because there's typically a respect for – because what we do not want is we do not want somebody in Finland to download cognitive dissonance and then get offended and sue you and have the Finnish court issue a judgment against an American citizen broadcasting in Chicago. So that's not a thing. That can't happen.

As far as I know. Cool. Don't get your legal advice from a podcast i'm curious i'm curious well but you guys are going to go be there or not in finland but you know you're gonna be overseas they're not gonna it's not like we're gonna get tackled by psychic sally because we call her a fraud you know what i mean like yeah that's the thing like what about if i say shit over there and then immediately get on a plane and come home? No, no, no. Can I come back to glue and touch it and be like, no, no, no, boo, boo. Thank you.

I know. I'll give you guys free legal advice, just you guys personally. As long as you get away, you can do anything. There's virtually... That's how it works. Yeah. You don't want to make the

mistake of saying something bad about someone in finland and then immediately going to finland that's fair we'll tone down our uk like attacks between now and then except for the queen fuck that bitch so so gentlemen uh if people were going to find your podcast, where would they look? Go to openargs.com. That will have a lot of links for you. Of course, you can find it in iTunes. We'd really appreciate those iTunes users.

Give us some reviews. The reason we released so many episodes at once was we're trying to make a splash, maybe get more noticed in iTunes because, you know, for better or or worse that's the place podcasts really get noticed so we'd really appreciate that hopefully people listen to your show and give it some reviews guys if you guys have listened to any of Thomas' stuff this is on par with that stuff it's really great I had a chance to listen to some of his stuff

and it's really excellent it's very good and you've been killing it with Atheistically Speaking lately too Thomas thanks for joining us guys we really appreciate it thank you so much for having lately too, Thomas. Thanks for joining us, guys. We really appreciate it. Oh, thank you so much for having us. Yeah, thank you so much for having us on. So that's going to wrap it up for this time. We are still collecting surveys from the audience.

So if you have an opportunity and some time, it's a single-page survey. You can go to Dissonancepod.com, episode 314, and there will be a survey link there that you can take. It seriously will take less than five minutes of your time, and it's very useful information for us, so we really do appreciate that. We want to thank Thomas Smith and Andrew Torres of the Opening Arguments podcast. Go to openargs.com to check out their show or go to iTunes. If you listen and enjoy it, give them a review. They are really doing a lot of work with this, so check it out. That's going to be it for this time. We're going to leave you like we always do with the Skeptic's

Creed. Credulity is not a virtue. It's fortune cookie cutter, mommy issue, hypno-Babylon bullshit. Couched in scientician, double bubble, toil and trouble, pseudo-quasi-alternative acupunctuating, pressurized stereogram, pyramidal free energy healing, water downward spiral, brain dead pan, sales pitch, late night info

docutainment. Leo Pisces, cancer cures, detox reflex, foot massage, death and towers, tarot cards, psychic healing, crystal balls, Bigfoot, Yeti, aliens, churches, mosques, and synagogues, temples, dragons, giant worms, Atlantis, dolphins, truthers, birthers, witches, wizards, vaccine nuts, shaman healers, evangelists, conspiracy, doublespeak, stigmata, nonsense. and healers, evangelists, conspiracy,

double-speak stigmata, nonsense. Expose your sides. Thrust your hands. Bloody, evidential, conclusive. Doubt even this. The opinions and views expressed in this show are that of the hosts only. Our poorly formed and expressed notions do not represent those of our wives, employers, friends, families, or of the local dairy council. What is going on?

What is that noise? What is that noise? What the hell? Jesus Christ. Sorry, guys. What the hell was that? Oh, it wasn't Andrew. Thank God. I was really worried it was Andrew.

I went to pull a cord and move a cord. And I unplugged the USB mixer from the thing. So in the middle of what you were saying, it was like brr. And nothing's happening. And then, comically, I could not put the USB in correctly again, because you know how USB is like, first time, second time, every time.

USB has three different orientations. It's ridiculous. It's like those molecules that are spin left, right, and then there's somehow another spin that it is. You put it in the first way, which is the right way, but it doesn't go in correctly. It doesn't go in.

Then you turn it over, and it's clearly the wrong way. Then you turn it back over, and it goes right in. It's a minimum of three flips. It's the third time every time. It's never been done in fewer than three flips.