Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 400: In Studio With Seth Andrews

Episode Date: February 12, 2018

In this episode Seth Andrews joins Tom & Cecil to discuss important ethical and sociopolitical stories that make the news... Ok fine they giggle about religious wackadoos that do stupid things and then they make dicks jokes. You know what you signed up for! Stories from the Week   Make sure you follow Seth Andrews • • • • • • • •

This episode of Cognitive Dissonance is brought to you by our patrons. You fucking rock. Bye, fellas. I hope I'm not too late. Just ringing up. This is Dave Thomas, by the way, from Little Hampton, the UK. Just ringing you up to wish you a happy 400. Seems like only a few years ago I was ringing up to wish you a happy 100.

It was a few years ago, I'd say. Anyway. Cheers. Bye. I was really not to wish you a happy 100. It was a few years ago, I'm sorry. Anyway, cheers. Bye. Happy 400th episode, you magnificent bastards. I've been a listener since episode seven or eight. I remember finding your show for the first time.

I was a homicide reporter and just waiting around outside of scenes for cops to talk to me. I remember having to try so desperately hard to stifle my laughter. You guys have made me almost fall off my bike in traffic, look like a crazy person at the grocery store. And I just want to say thank you for all these hundreds of great, informative, compassionate, and hilarious podcasts. If I can plug my own, check out Upstream Radio. We look at how inequality

literally kills us, how poverty makes us sick, and what we can do to get better. Hope you'll check us out. Glory hole. Hey, Tom and Cecil. This is Marissa Alexa McCool of the Inciting Incident Podcast and the Sister Getting Out of Hand Podcast. Just wishing you a happy 400. Thanks for standing up for groups like ours and giving me a spot to annoy the shit out of you on your show. Thank you for that opportunity, and I appreciate everything you do. Glory hole, motherfuckers. Hey, guys.

Thanks for the 400 amazing episodes. I started listening to you in high school, and I was still stuck with my Jehovah's Witness family, but now I've managed to escape from grad school and get my PhD in astrophysics. Thanks for keeping me sane throughout the years. Glory hole. This is Kayla from Memphis, and I just wanted to say happy 400. Thanks for the show and for making each week in this political hellscape a bit more bearable. Glory hole, motherfuckers. Congratulations, Tom and Cecil, on 400 episodes.

To celebrate, my husband Anthony and I are going to put our genitals in each other's mouths. Glory hole. Hey, this is Sharon from the habeas humor podcast. Congratulations on 400 episodes of Cod Dis. No one who isn't a Republican politician has ever wagged their tongue in the glory hole that many times. Thank you so much for this great show. wagged their tongue in the glory hole that many times. Thank you so much for this great show. Jay here from Canada. Just wanted to congratulate you guys on 400 episodes. I love the show. Makes me laugh every week. Hopefully the glory hole stays open for many more years to come. Maynard here on behalf of all the people in Australia. There they are now. Happy 400th show from the Skeptic Zone, Planet Maynard, and Bunga Bunga.

You guys have done a great job. May Satan bless you and all that sail in you. Hi, guys. This is Tango, another proud patron. Congratulations on your 400-episode mark. I can't believe I've joyfully listened to all of them. Oof. Glory hole. Hey, Tom and Cecil.

Congratulations on the 400th episode. This is Andy from the Registry Matters podcast. Glory hole. Glory hole. Glory hole. Glory hole. Glory hole. Motherfuckers. Hey guys, this is Tom.

And Austin. And we're from the Dumb All Over podcast. Congratulations on 400 episodes, and here's to 400 more. Glory hole. What's up? This is Steve Ruck, the host of the Red Band Underground Show podcast. We would like to congratulate Cognitive Dissidence on their 400th episode. Stop looking at me, Randy. Go outside, Randy. Glory hole, motherfuckers.

Happy 400 from Australia. You guys fucking rock. Glory hole. Hey, Tom and Cecil. It's Ms. Anne, one half of Skeptin Freuda, Australia's least listened to podcast, which you inspired us to start. Now, for fuck's sake, please tell us to stop. Congratulations on 400 episodes and glory hole, you hilarious motherfuckers. Hey, Tom and Cecil, congratulations on 400 episodes of the podcast. We are David and Trevor from the Books are Boring podcast. The Books are Boring podcast.

No, we're not as good. I was going to say it. We're not as good as your podcast. The Books are Boring podcast. Not as good as yours. Stop it. Okay, we're not as good. I was going to say. We're not as good as your podcast. The books are boring podcast. Not as good as yours. Stop it. Okay. Not as good as yours.

Hello, boys. This is Michelle from the Pacific Northwest, and hell is right smack in the middle of my name. I don't have a podcast, but I do have a vagina, and I'm still a patron, and I'm still a proud descendant of filthy monkey men. Happy 400th! Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. recording live from glory hole studios in chicago this is cognitive dissonance every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way we bring critical thinking skepticism and

irreverence to any topic that makes the news makes it big or makes us mad it's skeptical it's political and there is no welcome at. This. This is episode 400, man. 400, man. 400 episodes. Think about the number of hours you have put up with my shit. Just pause and think about that for a second.

I did that. You know, you think like it's an hour and a half edited. Yeah. Right. Per episode, give or take. Yeah, sure. Right. It's about four to five hours of hanging out to record a show. A lot of it's

bullshitting. Four to five hours. I have to put up with you for a lot longer. Times 400. That is 1,600 hours of my shit you have been eating. But I've known you for 20 years. It's a lot more than that. It's true. It's true. To join in the eating of my shit,

we've invited a friend. Wait a minute. What? That is how you introduce guests. Are you doing that? That's how we do this now. Okay. No?

All right. All right. We have live in studio. In the glory hole. In the glory hole. Is this your first trip to the glory hole? Don't lie to me, Seth. I have a feeling this is going to be taken way out of context.

You're never going to be able to run glory hole. Don't lie to me, Seth. I have a feeling this is going to be taken way out of context. You're never going to be able to run for office. When he was talking about eating your shit all night, I'm like, this was not on the literature you sent me. That is true. Seth Andrews from the Thinking Atheist podcast live here in studio.

We're very excited to have you join us for episode 400. It's an honor. I'm a fan. You guys have been on my show a few times. And it's funny when you're a podcaster, especially in the year 2018, you're kind of in many ways a needle in a stack of needles, right?

Back when we first started podcasting, right? I mean, like, oh yeah, there's a few podcasts. And now it's like there's an ocean. Oh yeah, absolutely. And yet you guys And now it's like there's an ocean. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And yet you guys stand out. And you guys are always making waves. People always tell me how much they love your stuff.

Or hate us. Or hate us. That's another thing. I'm good either way. Honestly, I got a question about this since I'm sitting here with you guys. But I mean, with the name Cognitive Dissonance, which is its own in-joke, I was wondering, how often do you have to explain the name of the show? And then I thought to myself, well, somebody who's listening to cognizant who ends up here they probably are already ready far enough along in the game oh yeah yeah they already know and you

don't have to explain it right and we don't explain it you know like we've always joked that this is a preaching to the choir show like that you know your show i think starts off for a lot of people as like a really good introduction to this set of ideas. It's a bridge. Right. It's a great soft place to land. We are not a soft place to land. We never pretended that we are.

We're not trying to be. It's like you're mad. You're annoyed. You think all this stuff is nonsense. It really gets your goat like, hey, come over here. Come on over here. We got you. We got you. For on over here. This is where the adolescents are cursing at each other.

That's pretty much it too. But I got to tell you a story and a very brief one and offer you a thank you too. Because I am getting married in April to a woman named Haley. And I actually would not know Haley if it was not for your show. So Haley found your show when she first started kind of poking her head into the podcast world and into the atheist community.

She found your show. Very quickly after she found your show, we were on your show. She became involved in the community. I met her through the community. The only reason she and I know each other, the only reason she's in community at all is because of your show. Divine destiny right there, baby. It's pretty fun. I'm the Chuck Woolery of 35. Now, for those under the age of 35, Chuck Woolery was host of Love Connection. Yeah. And I'm at the age when I have to dory was host of Love Connection.

And I'm at the age when I have to do that, right? Oh, I had this on record. A record was a vinyl disc. That you held up to the sun. Right? And you looked through. Yeah. It's just funny

because when she and I first got to talk, she's like, I've been listening to your show for, you know, she listened to all of our shows. She listened to the whole back home.

Well, how'd you find us? Well, Seth Andrews from The Thinking Atheist. That's fantastic. I love stories like that. So we are connected in that way and you didn't know it. My wife and I were married for 17 years and you introduced us. You know what's really weird? I was just asked recently to be the officiant at a secular wedding in October in California.

Oh, cool. And I've never done it. And I mean, I always thought, well, that'd be kind of cool. But they don't want a priest, right? They don't want any woo. Even though apparently at least one side of the family is pretty religious. They said, you know, we both listen to your show and we think you've got a real heart for people

and you're a good storyteller. And we just feel like, you know, wouldn't it be cool if so? So now I'm like, well, what does this entail? So I'm going through all the California literature to find out, you know, what's the legal requirement to be a secular officiant, but it looks like in October, I'll be, you know, I'll be the, I'll be the preacher at a wedding. That's funny. So I'm excited. It's a real honor to be. It's amazing. You know how this community kind of connects people. It's like people that I never, you know, that in any other circumstance you would never have known,

you'd never have known their name or seen their face. And yet all of a sudden we see the network happen and then you have that and you can carry it forward. It's awesome. Yeah. Do you have a lot of people

that when they listen to your show that they are religious and they still listen just because they want to hear like an alternative argument? You know, I don't hear a lot from people who say they, I'm a religious and I enjoy listening. I hear a few people who listen and they send me that sort of amused email that's like, you know, I, I, I listen along. You're wrong on an awful lot of points. You're adorably wrong.

Very much that. I had one guy back when I first started and he sent me just a, I mean, a heated and indignant message about all the things I was wrong about. And weird, like four years later, he sent me another email and I remembered it. I remember the guy. And he said, you know,

I have to tell you that I am, I was wrong about all the stuff that I had been protesting back then. I actually went and did some homework and I'm an atheist now. That man, Matt Dillahunty. And now you know the rest. So, I mean, it makes for a good story. But, you know, I've got, I do,

my show is like the show that pops up on a Google search when a person who is going through the journey of doubt says, what the hell is an atheist? And they type it in and the show pops up. And then they can start in the shallower waters or in waters that don't attack their particular religion. So if you're a Christian, they can, hey, they love making fun of Scientology, right? Or if they're a Mormon, they can listen to the show about Jehovah's Witnesses. Or if they don't want to listen to a show about religion, we'll do ghost stories every October. I mean, they can wade into the water.

And before you know it, hey, they're back for more, they're back for more, and you never know. The first one's free. That's the angle that you're going at, right? I gotcha. It's like it's always been the little women that caught the vision of giving, beginning with Jesus himself, out of their private means. Some of you little precious ones have that little grocery money. Some of that little money set aside. Assure tonight the blessings of God on your family by giving it to God.

And speaking that that say it god this is for blessings on my family this is a story from uh new york daily news televangelist kenneth copeland thanks followers and jesus hey jesus too jesus was not an insubstantial contributor jesus co-signed on the loan he gave all 30 pieces of his silver yeah well Jesus co-signed on the loan. He gave all 30 pieces of his silver. Well, he co-signed. The thing is, is that, you know, Jesus will take away that jet if he doesn't get a 3.5 GPA. That's the key.

You know, you can only, you can't even use it on the weekends. He can only go back to school. That's it. Back and forth to school. Right. So Kenneth Copeland got a private jet and he may be one of the richest pastors in the world. And his, you know, the thing is, like, I do like the way that he responded to getting this private jet, which was to pose braggadociously in front of the private jet with his fucking. He's just like, yeah, that's my private jet.

I bet you bitches don't have a private jet. And who has a mission accomplished banner after Bush? I thought the same thing. He's got a mission accomplished. It's like, oh, did you miss that? You missed that entire bit. Because we're still trying to accomplish that mission. It's been 17

years. ISIS might do it. I don't know. We'll see. The prosperity gospel preachers have always blown my mind, right? Because I'm always thinking, well, they're doing the name it and claim it. And they're quoting whatever prosperity verse, you know, the popular ones that talk about bring your tithe into the storehouse, which is different than offerings. And they get into blessings and cast your bread upon the water and all these. What does that get, ducks?

And in the afterlife, you're going to get a prize. And so then, and by the way, this is not his first jet. He's got five. Well, okay. All right. He's got five planes. Hang on set. That sounds bad. But the first four are for practice. That's the thing. Yeah. And the, And this one's probably faster than the other ones that he has. They're designated once an international travel jet, and they've all got their kind of thing. He's got his own airstrip. I mean, what, do you have one pair of shoes? You know, come the fuck up.

You gotta go matchy-matchy jet suit, right? Picking on Copeland. Remember, who was that guy, Creflo Dollar? Yeah. He wanted a jet or a helicopter jet or something. on Copeland. Well, remember, who was that guy, Creflo Dollar? Yeah. Didn't Creflo Dollar want to- He wanted a jet or a helicopter jet or something. No, it was a Gulfstream.

It was like a $50 million jet. Yeah. And he was talking about how this is God's will, and he was making all kinds of promises. Again, God's going to bless you one day down the way in this sort of nebulous time period, or maybe even after you die. You know, what's interesting about Copeland when I was doing the research on his story is that it ain't over because now he's asking his, his minion, so to speak, to help him build a hangar. I gotta, I gotta have a house for my jet. My jet can't be, what do you want me to have a homeless jet? I can't put it in a

poor barn. I'm not going to hand wipe this thing down every time i take it off i love the prosperity gospel stuff too because like you said it's it's a prize later but it's sort of like but i already have the prize now that's my money even when i was a christian devout christian i remember looking at these guys going jesus used to get around on the back of an ass okay you don't need a back Oral Roberts back when he had wrecked his Mercedes. And, you know, they were talking about all the lavish stuff. Sure. His son, when he was president of Oral Roberts University, I think someone who'd worked at the university or worked for him said he had that 1.250 neckties. That's how big his closets were.

And I think, you know, the prosperity gospel seems awfully front loaded. Yeah. Right. In favor of seems awfully front loaded. Yeah. Right. In favor of these guys. Right. Yeah. It's like, oh, you're going to wait for your prize. But I'm like a fucking shitty toddler.

I want my prize right now. What's interesting is I used to be a Christian, too. And I remember hearing about these guys. And I remember thinking to myself, like, like these guys were liars. Like, even when I was a Christian, I was just like, no, these guys can't be telling the truth. But there is a large section of people in the world that think they're telling the truth and that they need to get...

I mean, look at fucking Joel Osteen makes a shit ton of money. Every week, that guy... He's winking at it. But he's got to pay for the teeth whitening. He's got giant chiclets, that guy. The cost of those things has to be incredible. The maintenance. He's got to power wash, that guy. Doesn't he? The cost of those things has to be incredible. Maintenance.

You've got to power wash and sandblast those things. The whole team involved. This human costume is so uncomfortable. It's like the, what was that movie? Men in Black? The cockroach is in it or whatever. Driving inside of him and it's just all jerky and weird. It's twitchy and weird. Yeah.

I, you know, it's funny that there's just such a large group because I did not believe it. I did not believe them when that was. Well, you know, it's, and it's very insidious. I mean, we're laughing about it, but in the church and I've been to these churches, my father was more conservative. My mother was Pentecostal. So I got the mix.

I got the Baptist. Sure. Yeah. And so they go and you see people who, the idea is, is that it all belongs to God anyway. This is why they say you don't give your money to God. You bring to God what is already his. Everything belongs to the Lord. The Lord.

Why do I have to bring it? It's already his. It's just as his in my pocket. In the Bible, it says he owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Right. So your obedience, it's an act of obedience to bring back to God what was already his. You're just borrowing it for the time. And so you've got people who are bringing their Social Security checks, the money they'd spend on medication or rent or something else.

Or maybe they got hospital bills. And it's a faith exercise. It's essentially preying on people's desperate need to find hope. And in that way, I find it's truly insidious. It's a prey on the vulnerable. I was going to ask, are most of the people contributing because they're desperate? The middle class are not contributing, right? And the upper class are certainly not contributing to this.

You never know. Some millionaires, there was a millionaire who came in for Oral Roberts when he was building the City of Faith and gave him the final million. So you'll find those people. But by and large, do you think it's more people who are more destitute and more vulnerable in terms of just number, not dollars, because dollars don't matter, but I'm talking about like the total number of contributors. Do you think it's, I don't know, you don't know for sure, but is that your impression? I think people are so diverse. They give for a diverse number of reasons, but I think there's a desire for hope.

Sometimes there's desperation. Maybe somebody genuinely is financially destitute and they're waiting because they tell these stories in church. You know, I had a thousand dollar deficit and I had no money and they're gonna throw me out. And I prayed and I believed and I give to be on my means. And two days later in the mailbox,

I got an inheritance check that I didn't. I love that God had to kill somebody for it. God had to fucking murder somebody. Well, Jim needs some money. So, Sally, you got to go. Somebody pull plug down there. And they do this. It's like that Twilight Zone episode with the box.

You know, you press the button and somebody dies i don't know bring those be prayed those people out and you know you get the sensory stuff going with the music and everything else and oh yeah and the heat of the moment they hit the atm machines there are some churches that have atm machines in the lobby of their building what yeah and so they get everybody all worked up They go out and they just pull out the cash. So here's what you do. You get one of those cash machines and then you do the $5 upcharge on it. So they don't have to, so they want to leave. So you make it like one of those destination ones.

Whenever you go to like the great America or whatever, or like some sort of theme park and you're like $7 just to get my money. It's my money. It's like $7. And then they say like, oh, so the bank's going to charge me. Yeah, and the bank, fuck it, I want $10. It costs me $10.

I'm already raw. What are you going to do to me? In the name of Jesus, we speak that. All right, this story is from SciPost.org. I love this story. This is a fake God helmet. Can elicit extraordinary experiences, especially among spiritual people.

I just wonder, like, does it come with a fake God spear? For the spear and magic helmet? For the spear and magic helmet. I wasn't tracking. Thanks for the feeling, man. I had to explain. The best jokes are when you have to explain them.

Go out of your way to explain them. That's how you know you hit it. Absolutely. So they say, wait, right off the bat, though, it's this bogus. It's this does not work. Right. Yeah. Right.

So a little background. And I think this is hilarious. And it's funny because, Cecil, you mentioned earlier today that Noah couldn't make hay out of this for Citation Needed. He was going to talk about this as one of the subjects on the Citation Needed show. Wasn't able to make fun of it. I can't understand how that's even possible. This is a helmet that's basically just a bunch of

blinky lights and LEDs and toggle switches. It's a skater helmet painted like silver or something. It looks like the wires and shit that come out of the fucking telepaths for minority reports yeah i mean like it looks so obviously fake like if somebody comes up to you it's like i've got a brain reading device get the fuck out of here absolutely absolutely so and i

love what they're trying to test so what they're trying to test is whether or not drunk people will be more susceptible to these experiences so they go to a big fucking music festival and figure it out. We'll just be able to find a bunch of drunk people. And I, I had a laugh because it's like, yeah, well, depending on the music festival,

for sure, you'll definitely find more people that are going to be open to fucking quasi spiritual experiences, right? Like if you go to like a Christian rock festival, you're going to get a different result than if you go to like Coachella or Burning Man. Right.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So these, these guys go out and they've got this like fucking fake helmet, which is just fucking good. Which looks ridiculous. It's amazing.

It looks ridiculous. It's amazing. I didn't see a picture of the helmet. So like the teacher and the old Star Trek episode. Oh, okay. Go to this article, people. You'll see it. All right. Go to this article, people.

You'll see it. All right. I'm seeing. I'm seeing. It's so great. And they want to see like, you know, will people report bullshit basically more frequently

if they're inebriated? But the best part is that people do report this bullshit. Yeah. Now, to be entirely fair, they kind of do some sensory deprivation shit that's a part of this experiment.

So they don't just put a helmet on and say, what do you feel? They also put the helmet on and then they have a soothing kind of noise. Isn't there a visor or something? Yeah, and they kind of block. So they do some sensory deprivation pieces as well. And I think there is some

relevance to that component because I think when you put all that shit on people, their mind starts to wander and you sort of just get... But they report having extraordinary spiritual experiences. Yeah. Um, I would love to be tested.

Yeah. I think it'd be fun. I think it'd be fun if you didn't know that it was bullshit. You know, if you didn't know, like, would you, like, would you drift off in the, cause I thought about it cause I've done sensory deprivation, right? So I've done sensory deprivation five or six times. Sure. And I have never hallucinated from it.

But what I have found is that the differentiation between being asleep and being awake becomes very difficult to tell apart. You'll jolt a little bit like you had just woken up, but you're not necessarily aware that you had just fallen asleep. So that boundary becomes more erosive, or at least that's been my experience. I don't know. I mean, I'm reading the article and I'm like, weird sensations and voluntary movements

hallucinating on heavy drinkers. The helmet seems redundant, right? Yeah. The helmet. Well i my thought about the experiment is honestly it's not unlike church sure because instead of using the helmet as kind of a totem or a conduit for spiritual energy churches do this stuff all the time you know come here and here's the prayer cloth a lot of the pentecostal churches I grew up going to,

they used actual anointing oil, which is usually just freaking olive oil, and they'd have it up there and they'd put olive oil on your head as they prayed for you. It was like a... Right now I'm going to break out. This specific physical thing will enhance the spiritual. But how do they jive all this for the people who say that God can't be measured scientifically? Here's an object or an instrument that quote-unquote is going to test God scientifically, but God cannot be measured.

How do you jive the two different narratives for God? That's my question. It would seem like they would experience some level of cognitive dissonance. Yes. That's the look Cecil gives me when he's really impressed by what I've said. I am very impressed right now. What's interesting look Cecil gives me when he's really impressed by what I've said. I am very impressed right now. You know, what's interesting about this entire thing is that,

you know, these people go and they have these with a placebo, a clear placebo. They go out and they have these experiences. And I feel like this can sometimes, you know, sometimes people will have, and I don't know, Seth, if you ever had any of these, but some people can have, if they're faithful, some very foundational experience that reinforces their faith. Something like, you know, my mom came to visit me when she was dying. I saw her spirit or, you know, I saw an angel when I flipped over in that car or when I, you know, just woke up in the morning, I saw this one thing and I knew, you know what I mean? Like there's a moment where they feel like there's a demon in the room and then they pray and the demon goes away. Many people have these experiences that they look to and say, you know, I know that I was super faithful before, but now after that experience, I'm very,

very faithful. And I don't know if you ever had any of those experiences. I know I never had any of those experiences. Never once in my life had a foundational experience that made it so I was faithful. But if this is a placebo and there's nothing to it and people are still having these things, it makes it so much easier to explain those experiences. Right. As, like you said, transitional between sleep and awake. Or there's so many people out there that have, um, uh, what do you call it when you're, you're, uh, you're, uh, the sleep paralysis, right?

People will have sleep paralysis. You've had sleep. I've had sleep paralysis once. I've never had it. I'm really grateful. It happens to me a few times a year. Yeah. And it's, it's really, really disturbing.

It's very disturbing. If I was a believer, I would think it was a spiritual attack because there's a figure in the dream. Your body's paralyzed. Do you know what's, you guys know? Yeah, I have. I've had it. And so for those who may not be familiar with it, but it's like the body is paralyzed for dream sleep, meaning that if you dream you're running the marathon, you don't want your body flopping around the bed. So the brain paralyzes the body. But in reality, what happens while your body's paralyzed, you're actually drifting toward consciousness, meaning you can almost,

sometimes you can even see and open your eyes and see inside the bedroom, but your body remains paralyzed. And so you panic. On top of that, you have perception of a looming figure in the room, which is a common thing about this. And it's happened to me.

You wake up, you can't move, and there's a dark figure looming over your bed. And then you freak out even more and you lose your mind. I've never had the dark figure, but I have had the feeling of something weighing on me, like pressing on me, like holding me in a place and not being able to move. Were you a believer though at the time? No, I was not a believer. And so I immediately recognized it as sleep paralysis. I was calm for two or three minutes and I waited for it to go away.

I knew what it was, but it scared me. I mean, it's a scary situation. It's a scary feeling. Your heart races and you get a little anxiety. Does it speak though to the conditioning that we have? I mean, people who are more, I don't know how to say this, but like certain churches attract certain kind of people and the more sort of flighty,

emotion driven that, you know, the ones who are more prone to tears and hands in the air, and they're more physically expressive. Those types of people normally tend to gravitate toward these speaking in tongues, sort of acting out, pew jumping kind of deals. And they're also, in my experience, and I'm not a scientist, but there are also many of the types of people who will say that when they drift out of fundamentalism, they're the ones who say, well, I'm spiritual, I'm acting in a spiritual way. Well, this is kind of how I'm wired. And somebody comes up and sticks a helmet on me. I mean, don't you think, is that just a reflex? Right, that's true. It might be, right? It might be that that's the thing that they're already conditioned to go in that space. We've talked about this recently about schizophrenia.

And so sometimes people will have schizophrenic episodes and they'll see a demon or an angel and then they'll commit some horrific act based on what the demon or the angel says. And Tom and I were wondering aloud, what happens if somebody doesn't have that structure of demon or angel and they're schizophrenic? What happens to them in that situation? And what does the mind conjure? We had a couple people sending messages and one of them said, you know, if you don't have

that as a background, they might think there's aliens. They might think there's some. They will figure out something. And that thing will do the thing that the angel or the demon would do in that situation. Did you guys ever follow the work of that? I think he's a neuroscientist in Ontario, Michael Persinger, who had the God helmet with the magnets years and years ago. No. Well, he did a study.

Now, the study's come under some pretty fierce criticism. I was guilty years ago of kind of saying, oh, yeah, they've been able to replicate the God effect using helmets. And it turns out that a lot of the data, quote-unquote data, coming out of Persinger's office has not been peer-reviewed and certainly hasn't been replicated. replicated. But he had what looked like a motorcycle helmet and he had it wired with magnets and they would take people in this sensory chamber and using electromagnets, he said he was able to, and a significant percentage of people introduced the feeling that there was a God in the room or a spirit or an angel. Like through stimuli, like his thought of stimulating parts of the brain? Yeah. I mean, using this specific kind of magnetism. And I think Dawkins even submitted himself to it. He's like, hey, put the helmet on me.

He didn't feel anything. And then some other scientists elsewhere, I don't remember exactly where I'd have to look it up, but they went and they replicated his conditions and they said, none of our people said they found anything. But it's obviously, it's something that's interesting. What external stimuli could make the brain, you know, it's like the people who are on their deathbed or who have experienced a near death experience. I had one guy call the radio show and he's like, you know, I went down the tunnel and I saw my grandma and I saw this, but I realized it's not God.

It's hypoxia. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But it's funny that you said Dawkins did that, that props to give up your, your, you know,

how he makes money is his nugget. And to put a helmet on that could maybe fuck. That's like fucking Ron Jeremy. Give it up. His cock. You know what I mean? Like, are you kidding me?

I wouldn't do it. I don't even know what I'd have to give up. Be like, I, I, no, the whole thing is garbage. So you can have the whole thing.

Yeah. I'm not sure exactly how I'm gonna present that point to him when i see him i said who's that guy on the other side of the glory hole it's jesus just stories from politico.com this is uh tony perkins i just love the way his phrase trump gets a mulligan on life and stormy daniels so a little background the stormy daniels story stormy daniels is a porn star she said that back in i think 2006 yeah she had an affair with uh donald trump who's paid 130 000 in hush money which is the biggest waste of money he's i mean the man has wasted a lot of money, but giving money to a porn star to keep

her mouth shut? Yeah, and then she doesn't. Yeah, right? Have you ever watched porn? Keeping your mouth shut is exactly what she's paid not to do. Are you kidding me? Depends on the scene. Alright, fair enough. I guess that's fair. I want to sidestep this

just for a second, though, with the Stormy Daniels thing. And this has been happening lately a lot. People will post something on Facebook or somewhere else and they'll presume it's true and they don't even bother to take a look on Snopes or whatever. And there's a lot of satire

that is masquerading as a news story. This Stormy Daniels one had one where Jim Baker supposedly said that he was, Jim Baker, this was satire, but somebody had written an article, a satirical article about Jim Baker

sharing the gospel that Donald Trump was trying to share the gospel with Stormy Daniels, which is a funny idea. It's a great funny satire. It's a funny satire, but it's just not true. And then there was another one that I found

today that somebody posted, and I started laughing when I read it, and then I checked and it wasn't real. And I wish it was real, but it's not real. And I want to read it. It made me laugh. It made me laugh out loud when I saw it. So let me open it up real quick. I just want to read. This is supposedly from her testimony. What they did was they snapshot

her testimony, and then they erased part of it and put in this little piece, right? I'm going to read this piece. We ended up having dinner in the room. I'll never forget his order. He calls up room service and goes, I want a pizza and I want little toppings on the pizza to littler pizzas. Like the size of pepperonis. But they're actually full of pizzas, just little.

So then he hangs up the phone and I assume he's going to make his move on me, but instead he gets up and in this really sing-songy voice, he starts going, I'm having pizzas, little pizzas on top. I'm having little pizzas on top.

And then he goes, I'm going to give you the night of your life. I'm going to fuck you so hard in your pussy, it's going to feel like I just ate pizza with tiny pizzas as the topic. I read that, and I thought, that is the greatest

thing ever written, right? Like, people say the Bible's really great or whatever. It's like the greatest story ever told. That is the greatest story ever told. That's a masterpiece. That's the greatest story ever told. Put your pens down. It's over. You're done. There's no more literature. Just quit. You're done. Also, I want

one of those pizzas. I do too! I actually want one of those pizzas. We just ate a pizza and I would eat another pizza if it had little pizzas on it. Sir, what would you like out of your pizzas? Redundancy. What I want is an infinity mirror of pizzas. The open box just sucks everything in. redundancy. What I want is an infinity mirror of pizzas. But yeah.

The open the box just sucks everything in. It's a vortex pizza. Oh my God. It'll kill us all. It's funny because like we are now, we're falling for it. Like there's a lot of fake news and whatnot going around, but we're falling for it because we want,

because at first off, it's so easy to believe. You hear that about Trump and you immediately think, yeah, he'd do that. Yeah. Yeah. He'd do that. No problem. Right. And one. You hear that about Trump and you immediately think, yeah, he'd do that. Yeah, he'd do that. There's no problem. And one of the things that happens, especially in this article, is kind of almost the same thing.

They hear the story and they don't deny that he fucked the girl. They don't deny that he paid her the money. They're just like, yeah, but it's fine. But it's okay. Whatever. He's better now i love this quote by perkins in the article he's talking about you know turning the other cheek or whatever this is a quote that i'd picked up quote you know you only have two cheeks which i was thinking

that's a great line for a stormy daniels porn video she's She's in only, she's in like a whole series of them. You only have two cheeks, one. You only have two cheeks, two. But Perkins always freaks me out. I mean, he's the, you know, he's always been the enemy of LGBT rights and he's always got this sort of creepy, you know, dominionist attitude about policy.

He tramples over the church date line at every turn. The guy just makes me crazy. And then you got Franklin Graham, right? I mean, in my family, Billy Graham is almost Jesus. Wow. I mean, Billy Graham is one of those guys where he is almost above reproach. You don't criticize him. He's helped to win how many millions of souls, blah, blah, blah, with all of these major crusades. And now you got his son, Franklin, who's kind of running the show. And to watch Franklin either, I can't decide, are you selling out your values or are these secretly actually your values? To watch him run around and excuse Donald Trump in this way, look the other way.

I'm like, if Obama had pulled half the shit, you would lose your mind. Absolutely. If Obama was even remotely analogous to Trump, he never could have gotten elected as a black guy, right? Like, if he was a black guy that had three wives and five kids or whatever and all the rest, I mean, there's no way. There's no fucking way. The standard

is nowhere near. Obama had to be perfect or nearly perfect in every way. He could never misspeak. He could never flub. He had to be above reproach at every single moment. What kills me about this shit is this feels to me like we talked about before. This feels to me like the sin and forgiveness problem. Christianity has this built-in mechanism where it doesn't make any difference if you're a good person or not. He says, I'm to go to the quote because it's relevant.

He says, we kind of gave him, all right, you get a mulligan, you get a do-over here. And it's like, yeah, you know, you get infinite do-overs. You get infinite mulligans on being a decent fucking person with Christianity. Or they say, well, you know, God often uses awful people to bring his will about. I mean, they've got an out for everything. I did a video, I produced a video last, I think it was right before the election. I think it was before the election. And it was called Christians for Donald Trump. And we took the best verses of the Christian

Bible. We skipped all the other stuff about rape and incest. And we found, you know, like, don't be proud, you know, don't be prideful, but be humble. And then we grabbed, we grabbed the most egotistical man on the planet, Donald Trump, and a soundbite. Don't lust. Well, that was an easy one. There's soundbites everywhere of the guy lusting. Sure. After his own daughter. Don't seek vengeance, right? Turn the other cheek. And then you see him talking to a crowd of cheering people saying, get even, get revenge, go after the people who get you. He is the antithesis of the best teachings of Jesus. And yet I'm surrounded in Oklahoma by people who are evangelical, overt Bible fundamentalists who think he is the guy. I sent my own father

the direct quote of grab him by the pussy with Donald Trump, right? Because he was busy talking about how Trump's God's instrument. And it's like he just, he didn't see it. He can't see it. He's got a vested interest in not seeing it. Just walked right on by and continued as if it did not exist. And it kind of creeped me out.

You know what's interesting is the shithole comment that he made recently. They said, you know, first, we reported on it the night it happened. Right. So we, we record on Thursdays. It happened on a Thursday. We saw it happen. It happened. Tom was probably listening to NPR on the way in and they immediately were talking about it. I was listening to NPR over here. I heard them talk about it. I came in, I started reading stories about it. The first thing we talk about on our show is this. We also checked to see

what the white house had said at that point. And at that point they hadn't even denied it. The first thing we talk about on our show is this. We also checked to see what the White House had said at that point. And at that point they hadn't even denied it. They were just like, yeah, that's pretty much what he said. They said like, yeah, Trump uses some harsh language. He stands behind the language he uses. Exactly. And so then the next day, a couple of senators come out, Republicans and Democrats, and they say, yeah, that's what he said. And then Trump changes his tune. And he says, no, I didn't say it. I didn't say that at all. But, you know, we all know that, you know, it's even if it wasn't what he said, it's, it's the manner in which he said it, right? Those shithole countries, those, he doesn't think those people are people. And it's, it's, it's a disgusting, shitty thought that came from his mouth. And I thought to myself after hearing that,

and Tom and I were talking about, we're like, who the fuck could possibly be the guy who's like, yeah. And the next day I saw a Facebook video of this, like she's like a mom or something. So somebody from some, I don't even know, like probably from Mississippi or something. And she's,

she's just beaming ear to ear. I can't believe all these, these Democrats got their, you know, their underwear in a bunch over this. All those snowflakes. This is exactly what people need to ear. I can't believe all these Democrats got their underwear in a bunch over this. All those snowflakes. This is exactly what people need to hear. This is what we've all been thinking for so long. He's not afraid to speak his mind.

They are our shithole countries, and these are our shithole people. Good for Trump. I'm so glad that he said that. I just love it. I just love it. Thanks, peeps. Then she hangs up, and I'm just like, holy shit. She admires him. Holy shit shit now i can be a bigot out loud yeah that's that's what all that's all that that means is now oh god it was so awkward to be like the only bigot in the room or at least the only bigot that you know i can't tell if you're a bigot because you can't

say our biggest shit how much of it is it just we're in power right yeah he's an asshole but he's our asshole right at least we're we're on the majority side yeah but i don't think it's that because it's like we're assholes too i don't think it's even like oh he's an asshole but it's like oh my god finally as an asshole i feel i feel validated in my assholery sure both of my cheeks have been validated validate those cheeks so hard they're black and blue contrary to popular opinion god is not against sex it was his idea in the first place all right i love this is also a trump this is from the raw story he's not president perfect who would have thought watch evangel evangelist sorry uh franklin graham blow off trump affair

blow him off you know uh with adult star stormy daniels all right so uh this is grandma i'm just going to quote a few things and we can chit chat a little bit about it uh first of all graham says wit the guy who's interviewing him um says you know hey you know you've heard about this this event with stormy daniels you know what do you think of it does that does that challenge your faith in the president as well? I don't want to talk about the idea of having faith in a president. It's just, does the president have a sin problem?

And Graham says, well, I can promise you he's not president perfect. It's just, yeah, but I mean, paraphrasing a little bit, but the interviewer was like, yeah, but doesn't that seem hypocritical? And he says, well, first of all, I don't think Trump's admitted to having this affair with this person, so this is just a news story. I don't know if itical? And he says, well, first of all, I don't think Trump's admitted to having this affair with this person. So this is just a news story.

I don't know if it's accurate. He says, now, did he have an affair with this woman? I have no clue. But I believe that 70 years of age, the president is a much different person today than he was four years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago or whatever. And we just have to give the man the benefit of the doubt. If he said he didn't do it, let's just say he didn't do it. give the man the benefit of the doubt. If he said he didn't do it,

let's just say he didn't do it. And that's what a lot of these people are saying is that the reason why they went after Clinton is because he did it in office. That's why we went after Clinton, not that. And they're like, and they don't care about this because they're like, I'd happened before. It's not a big deal.

It's not an issue. And the thing is like, I don't care either. I don't either. You know, but what I care about is, is the, what,

what baffles me, I guess, you know, because if somebody wants to have sex with somebody else that's a willing participant in that sexual activity, fine. And they have an extra $130,000 lying around. Yeah. Seriously, it means nothing. Yeah. Like, right? It's like, that's not a thing that I care about.

What just fucking blows my mind is like how openly, transparently hypocritical. Yeah, that's why we talk about it. Yeah, but I'm talking specifically like the support from the right, from the Christians on the right. They just like these policies, right? And this is such a utilitarianism.

And they're not comfortable with just saying, look, he's a terrible fucking person. But he's going to bow to the pressure of reelection. We exert that pressure and he'll put the policies in place that we want to have in place yeah so he's a monster he's not even my monster i don't even like the guy yeah i think he's a shitty person yeah but you know what i think abortion is murder and he thinks that i want to you know he wants my vote it's a religious lobby you know what i mean it's a religious fucking call it instead they have to like jump through these fucking hoops. That he's anointed by God and that he's

the chosen one. And the back of their throat is fucking bruised with this guy's fucking cock constantly being rammed down that goddamn thing. If they would just be honest, they could get fucked proper. Yeah. It's amazing to me to listen to somebody say about somebody else who's 70

years old. Well, he's only 70. The die is not yet cast. You know, he's still growing up. Yeah. He's still sort of learning from his. I mean, sure, we're all evolving. Well, most of us are evolving in a lot of different ways. But what a bizarre defense.

You know, I mean, just a few years ago is when he said that thing when he was in the bus and when he said to the lady on the apprentice hey i think you'd look great on your knees or whatever he was saying it's just that he has a track record far beyond you know stormy daniel certainly that absolutely you know grope uh ogling people in the you know the the beauty pageant contestants yeah the guy's got a problem to watch graham just set fire to his own credibility in this way with such a thing is that it doesn't set fire to his credibility his followers graham's followers just like yeah absolutely what what kills me is that it doesn't do anything to damage his credibility at all it doesn't do anything to damage trump's it won't do anything to damage

graham's because underneath it all is that utilitarianism where it's like look all right fine this is this these are the words we're saying in this order it that utilitarianism where it's like, look, all right, fine. This is this. These are the words we're saying in this order. It's a polite fiction. Yeah. It's a polite fiction that everyone is just nodding along with. They're all like, yeah, no,

we really don't believe this, but we're going to say we believe it. Yeah. Right. The guy could do fucking anything. And as long as he's a Republican, that's all they really care about. The kind of man that Donald Trump is in terms of character and integrity.

The only thing that would make me doubt the Stormy Daniels story, the only thing in the story, the only data point that makes me doubt it, and I don't, I think it probably happened, is the fact that $130,000 seems awfully low for a payoff. Yeah. That's, I mean, in my mind, that was the only thought. That seems a little low. It seems like he would have gone a little higher. and that speaks to the kind of guy i think he is you know yeah i mean he didn't care to him it's all a means to an end it's a way to protect this himself the truth of the moment uh he's sort of a walter middy do you have a relatively low dollar amount makes it more believable to me does it yeah because like this is a guy who fights he's

got plenty of money, according to him, and he still fights to pay the fucking drywall contract. You know? Yeah. It's not about whether he's still trying. Don't you think he's like, I'm not being shitty here, but like, he's getting his underwear on.

He's like, best I could do is 130. Right. That's the best I could do. You know, it wouldn't surprise me at all. Like, you know, this is a woman who still works the strip club circuit. read an article you know about this and and she was interviewed i read an article about it at the admiral i went to the strip club for the articles yeah isn't she cashing in though i mean she's starting she's cashing in on all this but like

that i guess that's what i mean like it's not like the money has to be important for her, not important for him. Right. It has to be a big amount for her in order for it to be a meaningful sum. I buy that. Yeah. So, and I think he would totally try to screw her down in terms of the amount that he wants to pay her. I, you know, why, why overpay? What do you think you, you, you had started to say something and you didn't finish it. Faith in a president. You had started to say something and you didn't finish it Faith in a president you had started to say that earlier Yeah I think that's a fucked up concept Like I think the idea that you should have faith In a person

You know even if you're a faithful person Faith seems to me Like if you're going to grant faith If you're going to grant this idea of having faith Faith in a god Fine you know because you can't get there anywhere else You gotta use faith it's the only mechanism you're going to have. Fine.

But faith in people, fuck that noise. People prove to you who they are by their actions and their words. That's it. You don't ever have to have faith in somebody. I never have to have faith in somebody. I can have trust in somebody. So we've been friends for 20 years. I trust you implicitly.

I have no faith in you. I don't need to have faith in you. I have the actions of 20 years. But the idea that you would have faith in a president is fucked up. I think that's a really fucked up way to think about people. And it's really a more fucked up way

to think about authoritarian figures. It sounds hopeful. That's what it sounds to me. I have faith in him. He's going to keep doing better and better. He's not going to keep grabbing pussies. He's not going to, uh, keep fucking porn stars. I have faith. That's what it sounds to me. The way it's worded is that it's hopeful. It's almost like, uh, you know, I hope I have hope that he's going to get better. Does that make sense? Do you know what I mean? It does. I read it differently. I read faith is like, I read faith isn't like I have faith. I

have trust. Like have trust. I trust that he'll do the right thing. Because that's a different word. Like our president, we should always be skeptical. We should always be skeptical. Every moment of the day, whoever is in charge of something so important, we shouldn't place our faith in that person. That's an asinine thing to do. We should say, here you go. If you fuck up, I will burn you to the fucking ground. Because too much relies on this. Too much relies on this. You get this job. You get the keys to the kingdom. All of that is true. If you

fuck me over, I will burn your house to the ground. And that should be, they should be a fucking afraid of the people. So starting a nuclear war over Twitter with Kim Jong-un, is that a revocable offense? I don't... He'll burn us to the ground. Now, how much of this, though, is facilitated by people who have long checked out? They just want an authority figure to, some strong us to the ground. Now, how much of this though is facilitated by people who have

long checked out? They just want an authority figure, some strong figure to come in who talks big, who acts big, even if it's an untoward way so that they can get on with all the bullshit stuff and we're all guilty and to some degree, right? We have lives to live. We have families to raise. But many people know more about what's on daytime television than they know about what's happening in the world around them. And how much of this is, ah, you know what, he's a strong guy. He'll, he'll go fix it. You know? Oh yeah. I'd love to see him face off against Kim Jong-un. It's time to finally settle it. There's so many people who say that sort of thing. And they'll say that, you know, that idea of, uh, you know, we're finally standing up to him. And recently I was listening to,

uh, um, I think it was New York times does a podcast called the daily. And I think I was listening to that and they were talking about how in when North Korea or South Korea was going to have the Olympics before, um, North Korea blew up plane up, um,

sort of in protest. Almost. It was a, it was a flight that was flying from the, uh, I want to say Saudi Arabia to South Korea. And it blew, they fucking blew it up. They had two agents get on the plane from like Japan, fly over, they left a fucking,

like a cassette recorder or something that was actually a bomb on there. And then they flew, they got off the plane in Saudi Arabia and then the plane with only four other non-South Korean passengers flew back to South Korea and blew the fuck up midair, killed everybody on board, 130 some people died. And they did it.

And the world knew it because they caught the people who did it. They caught the two agents. One of them tried to kill themselves. I think one of them successfully killed themselves and the other one they caught. And they knew that North Korea had done it. And the only power that North Korea had was this, you know, this violence, this violence that they could create. But the Reagan

administration at the time reached out a hand to sort of see if they could help them. And they released some sanctions on them through this threat of violence and this push of violence. Reagan didn't fucking, you know, go, I got a bigger button than you. Reagan said, well, fuck, we got to dial this back, right? You know, the thing is, is this guy doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. He doesn't know, like,

the only thing they have is violence. The only way that they can influence the world, they can't influence the world any other way. And so what are you going to, you're going to fucking goad them on? That's ridiculous. That's a silly way to think. But, you know, there are people out there who think that, you know, what we need to do is have a strong hand against North Korea. I saw somebody on social media the

other day and they said, why is there even a North Korea? Like, why are they still around? Right. I mean, why? I mean, in other words, why haven't we just, why didn't we turn it into glass? Yeah. And of course I'm thinking this is going to be an environmental disaster. In other words, why haven't we just vaporized? Yeah, sure. Why didn't we turn it into glass? Why didn't we turn it into glass yet? And of course, I'm thinking this is- Because it would be an environmental disaster. How do you not see the tremendous number of people, I mean, the mass of human suffering under this regime, and immediately write them off and say,

well, you know, I mean, it's collateral damage. It's all for the greater good. I mean, if you get to that point in your own mind and heart i i really do grieve yeah for for the species you know but i don't want to be that what that guy i mean it's violent sometimes inevitable yeah am i anti-war absolutely do i worry about kim jong-un absolutely do i think he has monumentally thin skin and he's a power hungry child with a God complex? Yeah, just like our guy. But I don't think you I don't think escalation is the answer.

I think, you know, you don't provoke a guy who has violence as his only he's the only tool in his bag. It's all he's got. Yeah. But, you know, this is the problem with somebody who is used to bargaining always from a position of power and authority. bargaining always from a position of power and authority. What worried me at the very beginning about Trump is the same thing that worries me now is that in business, especially when you are already wealthy and you're already winning and you're already bargaining from the top position, you never have to back down, right? Because it doesn't matter if you don't get the deal, right? Another deal will come along. Diplomacy has nothing. It's not even remotely analogous to business negotiations. The stakes are nowhere near as high. There's not

necessarily a clear top position, bottom position, the same way there is in a business negotiation where it's like, you have more of what I want than I have to give. There's always a power relationship. The power relationships in international diplomacy are so much more complex. But he still continues to negotiate with everybody as if he's a top position, bottom position business guy. Yeah. And it's a fucking stupid way to negotiate. This is not diplomacy. And the thing is, if you push somebody like Kim Jong-un too hard, like you said, if his only tool in his tool belt is violence, you can't even blame him for

using the only tool that you leave him. So what the Reagan administration has to do at some point is hand you a tool. At some point in real negotiations that's genuine, you have to reach out and say, here's a tool you didn't have. I'm going to give you this tool and you can use this tool. This is something I'm going to grant you. So I've given you a carrot. I'm not just beating you with sticks all the time. But he's not going to understand that. That shit's subtle. Yeah.

He's not going to do it. Now, is this the point of the cognitive dissonance broadcast when you check your email inbox and you get the, I'm sorry you're skeptical about religion, but you're not skeptical about politics. Because that's normally what I get. I'll get a Trump supporter who's like, I'm so sorry that you're so blinded in every other aspect of your life. I mean, I guess I'm a lefty, like, and I came into this being a lefty, you know what I mean? Like I, I don't, I don't allude to any of that stuff, but you know, what's interesting is, is that

it's not just lefties. And you know, Tom, this next story that we're going to talk about, this guy here, this Michael Steele, he's a former RNC chair. And he is one of the few people who's, I think, you know, pretty much saying, you know, enough is enough when it comes to Trump. I think that there are some people that are in the Republican Party that are anti-Trump. But I think that there's going to be a lot more as time goes on that are going to pull away from this and just be like, no, that's just too much. You've gone too far. I thought the shithole comments were going to do that. I certainly think-

Every headline, we think this is the one, right? You would think that this would be the one. I saw an article in the New York Times. It was an opinion piece. Forgive me for not remembering the reporter who had written it, but it's called, I'm paraphrasing, Evangelicals Have Lost Their Gag Reflex.

And it was talking about Franklin Graham and Perkins and all these people, right? But I think there are some people like Michael Steele who are, you know, they're going to put up with what they put up with until they simply hit that point of critical mass.

Steele's there, right? He says evangelical Trump supporters should shut the hell up. You no longer, you have lost any equity you have in your life to tell me how to live mine, how to be a moral person. You have surrendered the high ground. Don't even speak to me. And what's great is he's quoting all the worst part about worst part about parts about trump and he's reviled by it right when he's like when the you know what

grabbing doesn't bother you right that's a problem it bothers him yeah it bothers him when he says i can grab him by the pussy it bothers steel a. And to see it not bother these religious leaders pisses him off. And it should piss him off because they're supposed to be your moral leaders. Yeah, but should it... You know what amazes me is that he's pissed off. Are you surprised? Are you really surprised?

Because these guys have been selling... All they're doing is sell. These religious leaders, I don't think any... I mean, did you really think up until Trump that, oh, they believed all don't think any, I mean, did you really think up until Trump that, oh, they believed all this stuff? Well, I mean, honestly, though, I mean, I know we see it differently. I recognize that we see it differently. But it's also like, it's also such an obvious business.

It's just a business. I mean, and the idea that they, because they support every Republican, right? And they'll always support every Republican, period. And they'll support whatever the Republican wants to do, even if the thing that they, because they support every Republican, right? And they'll always support every Republican, period. And they'll support whatever the Republican wants to do, even if the thing that the new Republican wants to do is directly in contrast with the other Republican wanted to do. So it's either you're not paying attention or you're just kind of lying and you're okay with the fact that you're lying. It feels like such obvious bullshit.

I get being mad, but you can't be surprised. The stuff he says when he says, after telling me how to live, who to love, what to believe, what not to believe, what to do, what not to do, and now you sit back

and the prostitutes don't matter, the grabbing the pussy doesn't matter, he doesn't say pussy, the outright behavior and lies don't matter, just shut up. Now, you can tell there's a, you know, this is the guy, this steal, you know, had a fire Nancy Pelosi bus tour.

You know what I mean? Like, this is a guy who's not, he's not a, you know, somebody who's a fucking lefty like me. He's somebody who reviles Trump just as much and he's on the right. I often think there are a lot of guys in power

in Congress, right? They enjoy the majority, and they're playing a longer game, but they're choking back the bile every freaking... And I really do think they're going to come to a point of critical mass.

And, you know, what happens then? I don't know. What does it look like? When does it happen? I just don't think, I think we're going to see a revolution. I don't know if it's going to be enough or it's going to happen soon enough, but I think you're going to see a section of, and I think to answer your question, coming from that culture of religious people, even many of the powerful religious people, I think, genuinely do believe. They reconcile a lot of crazy shit

in their mind and they excuse a lot of stuff. It's like, you know, do I know that Joel Osteen doesn't genuinely believe the Bible? I don't know. He may.

Ken Ham, right? I mean, I look at Ken Ham and go, how can you possibly? And people ask me, do you think he's just, he's just full of crap

and he's filling his pockets? And the truth is, I don't know but um i do think you know i i haven't given up on all moral people i've given up on a lot of them yeah though when i've seen the sellout happen in the face of donald trump it's it we've never seen anything like this in the history of the country in the history of the world ever you were living in a time we've never seen anything like this. What's the presidency going to look like in 72 months? Well, another thing that worries me, and along the similar lines, is like,

I read an article that says the Republicans are all going to be soiled by Donald Trump. And I don't think so. I don't think so at all. Because the narrative will be that Donald Trump wasn't a real Republican, right? He wasn't a real Republican. The real Republican values are this, this, and this. He's been doing that the whole time too. Right. He sells his outsider status. So to some degree, the Republicans that support the pieces of his bullshit that they like, they are insulated from him as a member of their party because he still maintains the outsider status that says I'm in the party, out of the party. And so I don't think that the Republicans

are going to be soiled by this bullshit. I think they'll do what they've always done, right? Trump will move on in some way, either in three years or eight years, he'll move on and they'll say, that was weird, but anyway, and then some other buddy, somebody else will show up. Well, he distanced,

the Republicans do a good job of distancing themselves from each other. And if you look buddy, somebody else will show up. He distanced... The Republicans do a good job of distancing themselves from each other. And if you look at what happened with Roy Moore as a perfect example, right? Trump two days before talking about how great Roy Moore is, you should go vote Roy Moore, vote Roy Moore. And then people came out and fucking voted that

dude the fuck out. Get the fuck out of here. And immediately afterwards, you see him on Twitter. Oh, he didn't do what I said and he's not my guy. Trump separates himself from these guys so fast the moment they lose. So fast. He doesn't care one bit.

He will shed them, you know, as fast as he possibly can and they're going to do the exact same thing. I think some of that too. The moment he can't win. Tony Schwartz is the guy who wrote The Art of the Deal for Donald Trump. And Schwartz did an article in the New Yorker right before. I think it was too, again, too little, too late. But in the New Yorker right before the 2016

election. And he was like, you know, danger warning. Like, look, I made up a bunch of stuff in the art of the deal. A lot of what you're worshiping Donald Trump for is, I made up, it's fabricated, I admit it, right? And he also was speaking quite a bit about how Trump seemed to be about the truth of the moment. Whatever needs to be true at this microsecond, that's true. And then in five minutes, whatever needs to be true in that microsecond. So for Moore, it might have been, oh, what a great guy. And then he may have

literally come to the point where he's like, oh, what a shitty guy. Like the next day. And he may be at a point psychologically where he's just such a sociopath that he can sell himself this nonsense. I mean, who really knows? I also think that winning matters to him so much that Roy Moore was a good guy until he lost. Yeah.

And now Roy Moore lost, and that makes him a bad guy. Well, I like this truth of the moment thing, and I will say this. Look at the latest immigration thing that happened when they shot the government down. The day before, Schumer and them, they had a deal.

They were willing to trade the wall for DACA. They said, look, we'll give you the fucking wall. You'll have your stupid fucking wall, which isn't going to prevent anything. And it's not going to prevent the type of immigration that you're worried about. Okay, fine. You have your stupid fucking wall,

and we get the DACA kids. And everybody's happy about that. And he was like, yeah, cool, great, Sam, let's do it. And then the next day, he calls back, and he's like, I hear you're going to do this other thing. And he's like, wait, we never fucking agreed on any of that stuff. He's like, yeah, that's happy about that. And he was like, yeah, cool. Great. Sound. Let's do it. And then the next day he calls back and he's like, I hear you're going to do this other thing. And he's like, wait, we never fucking agreed on any of that stuff. It's like, yeah, that's what I heard. And he hangs up the phone.

It's the, it's, he doesn't, he will say anything to your face. Yeah. And then the moment he walks away from you, he'll say something completely different. It's happened so many times with these Democrats. They'll come to the, they'll come to the house and they'll be like, okay, we seem to got a deal. They'll walk out and the fucking Schumer on the floor the other day said, it is like trying to make

a deal with Jell-O. He's like Guy Pearce in Memento. Every 10 minutes, he's like, what the hell? He's got to open his shirt. He's like, oh, I hate Pelosi. Okay, all right. He's got so much writing space.

Kill Schumer. All right, got it. All right. We're good. You want answers? I think I hate Pelosi. Okay, all right. He's got so much writing space. Kill Schumer. All right, got it. All right, we're good. You want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers. I want the truth. You can't handle the truth. Okay, this is super weird.

It's from the Raw Stories. This is moving away from Trump. California pastor used church to satisfy his fetish for explicit photos, and his wife helped. Just like that little kid with the hamburger helper. his wife helped. Just like that little kid with the hamburger helper. And I helped. Well, to be fair, I wouldn't want pictures

of my wife either if it was... She just had the tripod and I helped. So this is pretty creepy. So this is a guy who basically used his marriage counseling sessions and pre-marriage counseling sessions

to be like, look, are you going to get married? You probably want to diddle yourself. I'd kind of like to watch. Send me photos. I need to make sure your form is good. Look, you could sprain a wrist if you get a little too vigorous in there. He's got a Sharpie and wipe-off board.

He's like grading. It's like 7.1. 7.1. He's calling plays. He's got X's and O's. Fucking shit on there. He pulls out his surface on the side. Some kind of complex fucking equation on there.

He pulls out his surface like, hold on, it needs to restart. It's okay. You can get it wet. It's fine. It's waterproof. At one point he says that, so he winds up having,

he says the woman claims that this guy sent her a photo of himself and his wife with a note saying, just had a great session. So this was after they had had sex and a photo of them saying, just had a great, is there a least sexy word than session for sex? You want to have a session? What is this, a jazz improvisation? He is the Anthony Weiner of Christianity. Isn't he? Right? I mean, it's like, first of all, when I saw the photograph, I was like, Ferengi.

But after that, I thought to myself, all right, how insidious is this? You have people who are in a position of trust and vulnerability who are told to submit to their spiritual authority, and this guy is essentially getting off by telling them how to get off in these sessions, and the wife is an accomplice. How creepy is that? And what he stepped down from the church a couple of years ago because he had, I guess, has been going on for a while. Is he being sued or prosecuted? What are the details? In this, you know, it says that he stepped down.

It says the woman said other pastors did nothing to address her concerns for the conduct between 2014 and 2016. So he has since stepped down in 2016. Why two years of contact? Like, I mean, that's a long premarital marriage session, counseling session.

Maybe she couldn't settle on the dress. You never know. These things happen. Maybe she couldn't settle on the husband. It's always settling. You know, it's so desp. You know, it's so despicable. This happens a lot.

The sexual nature of, you know, there's somebody in power over you and they're able to make you do the thing to satisfy them sexually that you don't want to do. Right. And this happens so often in churches,

that sexual power dynamic that is victimizing to all these people, dozens of people are victimized. Do you think those positions of power and authority draw these creeps or do you think they create these creeps? Oh, okay. I think both. I mean, I think in some instances you will find the people who gravitate to positions where they will be worshipped and that they'll drift into that. to positions where they will be worshiped and that they'll drift into that. But I also see, you know,

that there are people who get into these situations and they look around and before you know it, they're like, hey, look, you know, all these people are giving me their trust and their attention. And I should definitely betray that. I mean, pastoring is a very intimate thing. I mean, you are trusted to help give life advice.

You're in that way and you're in people's homes. You're at the hospital rooms with their relatives. You're praying with them over some very specific family type things. There's a family atmosphere to the pastorate. And so I think, you know, I think it's both. And, you know, he's far from the first person. You know, I always think of Ted Haggard. You know, the more they protest, usually the more you know you're in trouble. That guy was so great. That guy was super

great. How is Jimmy Swaggart still behind the podium? I mean, how many hookers, how many mea culpa's, how many tears do you have to shed? And yet they're still out there doing what they do. And, and probably the biggest indictment is that there are still people. I mean, we did it. We posted that classic eighties video of the evangelist Robert Tilton from Dallas, Texas, where somebody took all the pauses and put in fart noise. That is the funniest shit ever. It is so funny.

Because he also speaks in tongues too, doesn't he? Yeah, but that, and someone did a riff on that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he is, now that he has like, you know, 25 people instead of 25,000, but he's still out there

pastoring and people are still giving them their hard earned money. And James Randi once called these types of people, the unsinkable rubber ducks. I mean, it doesn't matter how much stuff they do or what they get caught doing or, you know, we could indict them with all kinds of evidence. And there are, there's a group of people that are just going to always be there funding what they do. And it hurts the heart. How and why does it happen?

What is, what was that guy's name? Popov? Was that his name? Peter Popov. Peter Popov gets exposed on national television as a fucking fraud, as an absolute fraud. He's doing a psychic game with a,

you know, somebody who's got a mic in the back and he's got an earpiece and they're reading these cards off back that they know the person they know who's he's near because she can see him and she's she you're standing in front of the guy who's got a you know a bum leg and then he'll be like oh you got a bum leg and the person's like oh my god i got a bum leg you're absolutely right and so but they totally fucking expose him on national television you know he's still selling Get Out of Debt Free water. He lives in a $7 million mansion in California.

I saw him on TV the other day. He's pitching holy water. I worked with him when I was in video production a few years ago. I worked with a co-worker. Her name was Morgan. And she hates the guy. She's a believer. She's a God believer.

She hated Peter Popoff. believer. She's a God believer. She hated Peter Popoff. And just on a lark, she actually sent in something on or did something on one of his websites just to see what would happen because they make these promises. Like if you give a gift of this much or you send in your prayer request, I'm going to send you my vial of prayer water. She wanted to find out what would happen. Well, immediately she started to get this volley of letters that appeared handwritten, but they're not. Right. They're mass produced, but they are manufactured to appear like they're written in his hand with like scribble marks and stuff scratched out. And it's very, very.

And it wasn't long before the request for money. Give me a hundred bucks and this will happen. Give me a thousand bucks. This will happen. And she requested, please take me off your list. She called, she actually had to return the mail to say, this person no longer lives here before the assault on her mailbox from pop-offs office.

Stop. Unbelievable. That's how persistent these guys, I mean, with these religious leaders, like an assault of your mailbox is the least, is the least worrisome box. It's getting assaulted.

It's very true. I mean, this is like, you know, Jim Baker is still around. Yeah. He was indicted. He went to jail for fraud.

He was, you know, the guy is a crook and here he is, you know, still again. Now, he's not... He uses his time in prison to get him authority.

Yeah, it gives him authority. He listened to his... Credibility. Now he'll say, you know, when I was in prison, you know, he'll say it a lot.

It's like a badge of honor to him. He's like a crip now. He's got no regerts tattooed across his chest. It's crazy. He won't sell you a bucket of slop for the apocalypse. What he'll do

is you give him a donation and he will then give you a gift of a bucket of slop. What does he call it? Like a love gift or something? It's like a love gift of a bucket of garbage that he sells you that's freeze dried garbage for the apocalypse. My love gift is teaspoon by teaspoon. Never a bucket. That's a lot. You remember Paul and Jan Crouch at TBN, right? I mean, everyone's loading them up with money and they're talking about faith gifts and believe it and name it and claim it and prosperity gospel this and that i mean she had an rv for just jan crouch had an rv for her two dogs she just had an rv for the dogs and it was uh i think they paid a

hundred uh was it either a hundred or three hundred,000 just for that single loan. For the dogs? For the dogs. And people are not upset by this. They're like, you know, God blessed them. We play clips in between each of the stories. And Jan Crouch is the one we get the most comments about. Because she has this thing where she says, all you little ladies out there, you have your little

grocery money, put it aside, give that money to God. And you're just like, and everybody who hears it is just like, are you fucking kidding? Did she just ask for God? Did God just ask for grocery money? Gross, like the food money? Crazy.

So that's going to wrap it up for this week. We wound up finishing a whole bunch of tape with Seth on over two hours with this stuff. So we're going to cut it into two this week. We wound up finishing a whole bunch of tape with Seth on over two hours with this stuff. So we're going to cut it into two weeks. This is the end of part one. We're going to have him on again next week to talk about Alex Jones. We've got some other stories that we're covering.

We do an interview with him. So it's going to be a lot of fun. We're also going to be doing some email next week. We're not doing any email this week. And we're going to be reading some patrons off. So be sure to catch us next week for 401. I want to thank everybody for listening for 400 episodes. We're also going to be playing some patrons off, so be sure to catch us next week for 401. I want to thank everybody for listening for 400 episodes. We're also going to be playing some on the intro next week.

We're also going to be playing some of the congratulatory 400 clips that people were sending us. So if you didn't hear yours this week, there's a chance you'll hear it next week. We want to thank everybody for sending those in. But we're going to wrap it up and we're going to leave you like we always do with the Skeptic's Creed. Credulity is not a virtue. It's fortune cookie cutter, mommy issue, hypno Babylon bullshit. Couched in scientician, double bubble toil and trouble, pseudo quasi alternative, acupunctuating, pressurized, stereogram, pyramidal, free energy, healing, water downward, brain dead, pan, sales pitch, late night info docutainment.

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