Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 423: Wild Wild Country

Episode Date: July 12, 2018

*WARNING SPOILERS* If you haven't yet check out this miniseries on Netflix about Indian guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (Osho). Otherwise be ready for some spoilers. It will still make you want to watch it either way. Pretty wild story.

This episode of Cognitive Dissonance is brought to you by our patrons. You fucking rock. Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. recording live from glory hole studios in chicago this is cognitive dissonance every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way we bring critical thinking skepticism and irreverence to any topic that makes the news makes it big or makes us mad it's skeptical it's political and there is no welcome mat this is episode 423 of Cognitive Distance. This is going to be a little bit of a different episode, Cecil. Yeah.

So, Tom, both of us watched on Netflix a documentary series called Wild Wild Country. It's a six-part documentary about a group called the Rajneeshpuram. I think, am I right? Rajneeshpuram was the city. They were the Rajneeshi. Rajneeshi. Rajneeshi people. Rajneeshi. That's what it is. Yeah. So Tom and I wanted to talk just a little bit about this. If you,

if you haven't seen it, it's worth watching. It's a six part documentary and it's worth, it's certainly worth your time. It's, you know, like, like about seven hours worth of, worth of stuff, I think something like that that. And the interviews that they get and the amount of tape, the one thing that really, really struck me was the amount of tape they had from back then doing all this stuff they did. And it's all this tape. And the other thing that struck me too, because you're to see constantly throughout this documentary, all this tape that really you think it would be a lot more talking head. You would have to see because you're wondering how are they getting all this B-roll? And there's just constant amounts of, you get the chance to see a lot of this great B-roll. But the other thing that really

struck me too, and this is one of the things, one of the moments that I kind of wish my dad was still alive is to ask him, I don't remember this. I know I was conscious back then, you know, this was also happening in like 85 in the, in the eighties, you know, I know I was like, you know, between, you know, I was between in, in 1980, I was, I was seven. And then, you know, you finish it out and you're almost 17. You know what I mean? Like, so there's a, there's for the 80s, for the 80s, I understand. And it's one of those moments,

it's like the biggest news I never heard of. Yeah. Because Ted Koppel's talking about this. They have B-roll of Ted Koppel talking about it. This was national news. This was like a big thing that we just somehow missed it. I totally missed it. Yeah, we missed it.

And I wonder too, if it was more regional than anything else, because this, all this stuff happened in Oregon. And the main plot of this entire series, and again, it's worth your time to check out. And if you have watched it, we're going to sort of give you a little bit of a refresher. Basically, this group starts in India. There's a guy who's a guru, and he has an assistant who's his secretary. And they have a large following of Westerners in India. And they make a lot of money, a shit ton of money.

And there's a bunch of them. And they never really talk about it early on. They kind of get kicked out of India, actually. They kind of get chased out of India for tax reasons and other things. And they come to the United States and they build a city in Oregon. They buy a giant piece of land and they build their own city.

They just come out commune style, build a city. They get into fights with the local community. They eventually take over the city council and they take over the entire structure of the city. At a certain point, there's almost armed conflicts that happen between them and the other group. Yeah, shit gets wild.

They arm themselves. Like, shit gets weird. They arm themselves. And eventually, it really feels like power goes to a lot of people's heads. Right. And cult is going to be a cult. Man, this was an interesting, this was a really interesting documentary. We were talking before the show.

So I went through a whole range of thoughts on this as I watched it. And the first couple episodes, I got to tell you, like I was like right in their camp. I really was pretty solidly like, leave the fuck alone. You know, like,

so, so I want to talk about the beginning of it because the beginning and the end are so different and the tone shifts so dramatically. Um, and so I thought that was interesting because in the beginning I was like, yeah, I'm kind of like right there with you. And I, I, you know, I'm not like heading off to fucking follow a guru anytime soon, but I can even say that I was sympathetic to sort of like how we get there. I want to talk about that a little bit too with you. So like these guys, you know, they leave India. They go to Oregon.

They buy this garbage land in Oregon, which to everybody is like everybody who says like this is just uninhabitable, shitty garbage land. It was not good land. Yeah. It was owned by like a millionaire or something. And they just bought a giant swath of it. Hundreds of acres, as I recall. It wasn't being used for farming. It wasn't being used for anything. It was just garbage land.

It was next to this nothing town called Antelope, which had a population of like 90. And that's not even an exaggeration. It was like 90. The population was de minimis, you know? And like next door is like miles away, you know? So, and they show up and they start building. And like, I got to say, to say, when they start building,

they're doing kind of incredible shit. They're terraforming the fucking land. Absolutely. They create lakes where there were no lakes. They create farmland from desert. They create a sewage treatment facility and a post office and roads. And they build a city from scratch in a really short period of time with laborers that were part of this group that seemed joyfully happy to do it. They were just like, yeah, we really like this. And that's the part I want to talk about a little bit too is like, I watched this and I recognized how appealing this would have been to a young version of myself. When I was in college and just out of college,

I remember being very, very distressed that I had this urge to do something that mattered. I had this desire to do something that was meaningful with the rest of my life. I was looking

for it as part of what the college experience was for me was to say, who am I and what do I want to do with this life that I have? And I can see how something like the Rajneesh Puram, that's the city that they built. I can see how that would feel like something. I can see how like being like, yeah, you know, like we're going to get together. We're going to build community where community is difficult to come by. And we're going to have this sense of like shared vision and we're going to build community where community is difficult to come by. And we're going to have this sense of like shared vision. And we're going to build something from nothing. And, you know, like all of that would have appealed to me very, very much.

And one of the frustrating things about this documentary is you don't know really why they love the Bagua. That's a big, big part of it for me. Right. they love the bagua that's a big big part of it for me right is that they never tell you what he had to say that was so convincing to get all these people to follow him and when he does talk i just go okay okay that's not that insightful it's he talks he talks in these sort of like meaningless guru platitudes and and a lot of it is um it sort of feels super hippy dippy where it's like the universe and like energy and i'm just like who gives a fuck you know like right like i there's nothing that i that i that was said in the documentary that made me feel like

wow this is somebody who i'd like to like check into right but there is part of me that does want to see what he what he did have to say least his overall philosophy, just to be like, what convinced 30 plus thousand people to follow this guy? I know. And like, it is frustrating because like, like what, like the philosophy that when he did touch on some things, like there were some things he said that I was like, you know what? I kind of like that he's not a turn the other cheek guy. Like he's not a turn the other cheek guy. They get, they get, they grab guns yeah yeah right but and he's he's like yeah look if if people fuck with you like don't tolerate that shit it's not all peace love and harmony no like he and i kind of

i kind of liked that too i was like yeah all right i don't think that stuff is all that like that sort of like pacifistic peace love and harmony stuff like that doesn't resonate with me at all yeah um and so there were parts of that like concept, right? That concept of like, Hey, we live in a world where we've, we're much more isolated, I think, than we're sort of as social animals sort of programmed to be like, we live in these like nuclear family pods and we're not really connected to a larger tribe or a larger community. And I have felt personally, like I have felt

the sense of isolation that's a part of that, you know? And there's a lot of different ways. We create a lot of different social tools to bridge that gap. Church does a great job of that. But if you're not into church,

like there's not a lot of good alternatives for that. The military does a good job of that, you know, building community. There are a lot of alternatives. I think that is part of the appeal of something like Facebook, right? I think some people feel

connected as a result of that. So, you know, I get that that is a desire, like a basic human desire. And so I can see the appeal. Like, I can see the appeal of, like, wanting to do something that matters. And so in the beginning of this documentary, I was like, yeah, you know, like

it's not, it's not my religion, but I don't care. And it seems harmless. Yeah. Right. And it seems like they just want to like build something beautiful. I don't like, yeah, I never had a problem with them building a city. Go build it. Go build it. Hey, that's good. You're, you're changing the land. You're making something worth something. Right. Go build it. Go build it. Hey, that's good. You're changing the land. You're making something worth something. Go do it. You know, great. Right. And then like the town fucking flips its shit.

Yeah. So the town totally flips its shit. And you know, there is like, I think some really aggressive xenophobia. That's a part of this. And you know, you could just sort of picture you know know, John Rambo going, they drew first blood. Right. Yeah.

Like that's like a feeling there. Right. They were the shitty ones first. The town was certainly not receptive in any way for this large ass group to show up in their tiny community and turn it into their community. Right. They were not receptive to that at all. I don't know what it's like to be a homeowner in that situation. in their tiny community and turn it into their community. They were not receptive to that at all. I don't know what it's like to be a homeowner in that situation. I will say like when they build up big places,

even downtown, people get upset that something's moving. They're going to block my view. So I understand their concept too. I do feel under, I do sort of feel, you know, the homeowner, like you might be kind of pissed. You're like, Jesus, the fucking, now there's like a million people on the roads and you know, there's 30,000 people moved. It's not just a trickle. You know what I mean? Like, so I understand their frustrations, but they were shitty to them. There's a difference. You know what I mean? Like there's a difference between being frustrated and being shitty.

Right. And it tells people like they, they, they ultimately what they try to do is they try to use a bunch of different legal tactics and tools to shut the city down. And I think that's where everything turns, right? Yeah, that's where it turns. And they drew upon an interesting question. So they create this huge community, Rajneeshpuram,

and then there was, I remember there being a moment where it was like, there's actually a state versus religion issue that gets raised. Yeah. Like, can a city exist that is a religious city? Because then that city is governmental. And then you, can you have a government? And I remember, I remember thinking like, and that's the sort of the argument that they try to use to break the city. So the, the townspeople is saying, you know, they're engaging more powerful forces, senators,

things along those lines to try to break the city, to try to get rid of it, to try to break the chart of the town charter, to eliminate the city, to have the zoning rescinded, buildings torn down, et cetera, et cetera. And when that's all happening, I am a hundred percent on board with the Rajneeshis. I'm like, yeah, like, fuck that. Like, you bought land. You want to use the land. You're not hurting anybody yet.

Yet being the key word. Yeah, yeah. I think like that church-state argument is kind of a bullshit argument because we don't apply it to the Hasidic Jews. We don't apply it to the Mormons. Yeah, the Mormons especially. Right.

And the Hasidic Jew communities in New't apply it to the Mormons. Yeah, the Mormons especially. Right. And the Hasidic Jew communities in New York that, like, control the schools and control, like... So we selectively apply that only to the religions that we're more comfortable with. Sure.

So I was like, yeah, I'm like, I'm fucking right on board with these guys and I'd be pissed too. And then, like, you know, people are being threatening and so then the Rajneeshis start arming themselves.

Yeah, there is definitely an arms escalation portion of the program where there's people starting on one side, making sure that their guns are visible. Right. And they're, you know, carrying guns around. And the other side's like, fuck that. I'm carrying some fucking guns around too. And they start training. The Rajneesh start actually like almost military training.

Right. Shooting. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there's a part of me too that was like, good. Because if we're going to be a gun culture. Yeah. If you're going to. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, there's a part of me too, that was like, good, because if we're going to be a gun culture, if you're going to, you know, if we're going to say like, and it's so funny to watch these guys and you know, like these are rural dudes out in Oregon and they, you know, like, you know, these are guys because they're wearing fucking Ruger

hats. These are gun guys. Right. These are gun guys. And then they're just like, wait a minute, they've got a bunch of guns. And it's like. Same thing happened with the Black Panthers, man. Right. I know. You know what I mean? Well, it's

sort of like, well, the Second Amendment's for white people. That's exactly it. Right? Yeah. And you got this... I got this really funny moment in like episode two or three. We are all white. Rajneesh are by and large white. Mostly white people. By and large. Very white. Mostly white people. But like... It's like, it's for white Christians

that look like us you know like and it's so funny because like all the guns that they buy they never get a money weapons charges yeah all the guns that they buy are just guns you can buy and then they're out in the middle of oregon shooting like turns out middle of rural places and shoot and it turns out when you have a gun culture like ours which is like you really don't need a lot to buy a gun it's not hard for these people to buy guns right Right. Lots of guns. So it's funny for me to like watch. It's like, well, but we should have freedom of religion.

It's like, well, what about this one? Well, I don't know. They wear a lot of red and kind of freak me out. They're fucking in ways I don't like them fucking, right? Orange. Yeah. And then it's like, well, they got a lot of guns. It's like, well, you know,

isn't that kind of our thing here in America? Like to have a lot of guns. It's like, well, you know, we are, isn't that kind of our thing here in America? Like to have a lot of guns and freedom to, to go shoot them. So like when I'm watching the first couple episodes, I was like, yeah, these are all the things we say we want. It's just that somebody we're uncomfortable with has it. And it's no different to me than a mega church. Sure. You know, it's just less there. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then shit gets weird. Yeah. Well, then, then what happens is, is that the Rajneesh basically say, look, here's a deal. We're just going to vote everybody out and take over the city council and take over all these positions of power. Right. And then they build a, a post office and their post office, they're manning the post office because they're the people who run the stuff. And this is when it starts getting weird. They start, one of the guys in town finds office because they're the people who run the stuff. And this is when it starts getting weird.

They start, one of the guys in town finds out that they're reading mail. Yeah. He finds out that they're like breaking into people's mail and reading mail. And they're breaking into their own people's mail. Like when we were talking earlier, like I think that I didn't catch that when I watched it. Yeah. And I didn't react to it the same way you did. Because I think part of me probably glossed over it

and was like, well, you're getting all these fucking bomb threats from the townspeople. The townspeople are trying to use all these crazy legal tactics to push you out. You should never read

somebody's mail and evade their privacy. But I would have been slightly more sympathetic to that if they were reading the townspeople's mail, if there was some reason to think that it... And they still shouldn't do it.. They still 100% should not do it. But I can understand

a sort of non-evil impetus to it. Do you know what I mean? If it was self-protective from an outside force. And up until this point, I did feel very strongly like, man, they're just getting pushed around by bigots. Yeah. And it felt like that. And then the tone of the entire documentary starts to shift at this point. And it really does show you the power of a cult and how much power they give to certain people and the power that those people have over the other people in that cult to get them to do things that you would not expect people to do. And one of them is because they want to vote out the entire town, they start busing in homeless

people. They get in buses and they go down to other parts of the state and other states. And they go to large urban centers and they bring in giant bus and like, we will feed you, house you, clothe you, turn you into, we'll basically let you in our commune. Right. We will let you in our commune. And all these people that are homeless, like fucking three hots and a cot sounds awesome. So they head up. Well, um, can I pause real quick?

Yeah. I was still very on board at that point. In fact, I was like, when they started going for the homeless people, I was, I was actually, I, I was not on board, but I was starting to be like, fuck. Yeah, that's awesome. What a great thing. You know, that's really showing your charity and wearing it on your sleeve.

I was really impressed. I was at that point at that point, because the mail thing didn't bother me the same way it did you. Cause I don't think I read it this, I didn't hear it the same way when you just like, when they're reading their internal mail, that's a control thing, right? That's like a, that, that's a privacy and control issue i felt like they were they were literally at being attacked from the outside yeah and so i think i probably misread and misunderstood the mail thing but the the homeless thing it was strategic to get more people was and i was pleased with that yeah because i was like mean, like, these other guys are using

the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law to try to hurt this, to try to marginalize a group to be the minority that rules over the majority, right? And I was like, yeah, fuck you. And then they're like, yeah, well, we'll get homeless people.

You know, a couple of things were interesting to me about that is that the documentary kept and all the people in town, whenever they would talk about the homeless people, they said the street people. Yeah. And I like I remember like yelling at the TV like they're not street people anymore. Yeah. But you're so fucking like hung up on like how bad these people are that even when they're given a home and they're no longer homeless, they're no longer living on the street. You're still fucking calling them street people. Absolutely. Cause you, these are like, these are garbage people and you don't love them and you don't respect them. And we're, we've decided society wise, we're not going to fucking feed them. And they specifically said they weren't going to let them vote and they stopped them from voting. Right. They stopped those people from voting. It sounded like illegally. That's awful. I mean, yeah, the city, awful.

But the Rajneesh also fucking repugnant when it came to the actual street people, right? To the homeless people. Eventually, yeah. It's crazy.

I think by their actions, they never cared about those people. I agree with you. Right? By your actions in the end, you never cared about those people. I initially was very impressed thinking, wow, you have this commun end, you never cared about those people. I initially was very

impressed thinking, wow, you have this commune, you have this surplus, this physical surplus of things. You want to help another whole group. And I was like, what an amazing thing. I was actually very impressed by the charity of it. And then they start drugging these people because they were, a lot of these people were, when you're homeless, a lot of times what happens is, is the people who become homeless are people who can't get in our country anyway. Access to mental health. It's access to mental health services. That's the big thing. You walk down the street in Chicago, the people who are really homeless, mostly congregate around the shelters because the shelters are giving them a cot. They're giving them a food all the time, you know, drive down by, you know, on Canal Street by the mission down there and you will see, you know, just a line of homeless people waiting to get fed all the time.

It's the people you see on the corners a lot of times are either the panhandlers or the people who are just not with it. Right. They don't know what's going on. They're screaming. They're talking to a window. They are not in any position to take care of themselves. Right. And they didn't discriminate on who they took with them.

Right. So they did. There was no test for them to see whether or not this person was, you know, mentally capable. Right. You know,

and they didn't help any of those people. Right. So when they showed up, they didn't help them. What they did was they drugged them. They wound up taking, because, and they drugged all of them. Yeah, they put like halid of those people, right? So when they showed up, they didn't help them. What they did was they drugged them. They wound up taking, because, and they drugged all of them.

Yeah, they put like halidol in people's beer. Everybody got one beer every day? Well, they put the fucking drugs in their beer and they drug these people. They turned it so that they were docile and would fall asleep and not, you know, and just be drugged up. And then near the end, when they knew that the vote was going to work, they just kicked these people out of their group. They're just like, you can't stay here. So they never, I think they never had any good intentions

when it came to those homeless people at all. I know. It was awful. That part of it was like, that was so distressing. It's like, I understand that, I was even okay if the charity was for strategic reasons,

as long as the charity continued. You know what I mean? Yeah, it didn't bother me at all. I was like, yeah, all right. I was even okay if the charity was for strategic reasons, as long as the charity continued, you know what I mean? It didn't bother me at all. I was like, yeah, all right. I was with you. It was never charitable.

It was, you should, you should use this to your advantage. If you can get people who will join your cause because, and, and it's purely selfish on their part just to try to stay alive and not live on a, under in a fucking box under a fucking freeway.

Right. And they don't give a fuck about your ideals but they're gonna at least follow the rules and live your life and maybe fucking swing a hammer once in a while just to get the food everybody gets something out of that bargain right it doesn't like to me i'm like you know what everybody's fucking everybody's winning right the moment you start drugging those people. I know. I'm just like, you are the worst. You are the worst. Dude, I remember I was watching and I'm like, I turned around and I'm like, they're putting drugs in their beer. Yeah. They're going to ruin the beer.

What if you could taste it? That's a horrible thing to do to that beer. I was blown away when they started doing that. I was just blown away. And then it gets weirder. beer was i was blown away when they started doing that i was just blown away and then it gets weird it gets weirder because now the people on the top echelon of this entire group they're fucking they're like so crazy they are choosing to uh to uh try to silence people in the group yeah through murder at one point they're going to try to murder a state representative that fails that part i

thought was weird because i may and maybe i missed something but like toward the end they're like we uncovered a plot that never happened to murder a state representative yeah and like i don't remember oh is that where they hung out in the parking garage yeah and they they talk about yeah they talk right you're right i forgot for a second. I was like, wait a minute. If it never happened, they have a conversation like in those people who are on camera admit to, we had a plan to do it. Yeah.

I'll tell you what, man, that one woman with the gray hair who's talking about like how she was taken by the cult and how it took her all the, at the end. Yeah. She's like, yeah,

I woke up. It took me a long time. She's somebody who committed attempted murder, committed attempted murder in the end. Yeah. And like, she's the one when she talks very frankly, she's like, yeah, you know, I was waiting in that parking garage and we were buying these guns. And like, the only reason we didn't kill that guy is because he didn't come out that day. Yeah. And like, she was going to do whatever they told her to do. Because there's another part. So there's a

state representative who almost who who there's a plot. Or is it the DA? Yeah, something like that. I don't remember exactly what he was, but he was some sort of state official. Right. And they wanted to kill him. They wanted to murder him because they figured that would have figured out. I mean, not that that doesn't heap more problems on you.

It doesn't make any sense. I know. But they just figured this was the way to go. They go after this guy. They don't kill him. Nothing happens, right? He doesn't go to work that day or something. And then they decide, well, you know what we're going to do? We're going to poison the

city. Right. With salmonella. Salmonella. So they went at least to a couple of places and poisoned buffets. Right. So they would salmonella poison buffets. Which is crazy because they had a whole lab where they So they would salmonella poison buffets. Which is crazy because like they had a whole lab

where they cultured the salmonella. Yeah. And then they would like hide the salmonella in their sleeves. Yeah. And then just drop it on. Like squirt, squirt, squirt or like fucking like a sleeve mister

or fucking raw chicken. It's like a chicken roast or whatever. Yeah. I was thinking like, it's like you got like a thing full of like that Purdue chicken juice that's in the bottom. It just drips out.

Uh huh. It's like shaggity, shaggity, shake, shake, shake. Exactly. Yeah.

No, yeah. Cracking rags in there or whatever they're doing. And it's, and they had a whole lab, like you said, a whole trailer lab. Right.

Full of all this stuff that is uncovered later that that's what they're trying to do. And then, um, they start to get, uh, they're there at this point what they're trying to do and then um they start to get uh they're they're at this point they're still making tons of money they're making so much money they have rolls royces they're driving around and there's a huge um like fucking woodstock like party every year they have where they make a ton of money and uh and then a couple people in the

hollywood industry start to get involved in this cult as well. Oh, my God. Do they ship money into that system? And they just dump money into it. And the main guy, what's his name? The Bhagwan. Bhagwan. Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh or something like that.

Sure, that could be it. Sri Rajneesh. Yeah, look at that. Later they call him Osho. Yeah, that guy starts to talk to these people from Hollywood and sort of push the secretary out, the secretary lady who was part of this, sort of push her out of the inner circle. Right. And she gets nuts. And so she has a faction, this Bhagwan has a faction and it's all this cult craziness going on. And then they decide at one point, the secretary decides she's going to try to kill the husband of one of these people who's working with the Bhagwan, the guy who's their doctor.

And the reason why she wants to kill him is because she has his place tapped. She's listening to all the conversations. One of the conversations that she hears is the Bhagwan saying, when I want to die, I want to take pills and basically just lethally inject myself and kill myself. And the doctor provided that medicine. And the doctor gives them the medicine and they think it's going to happen on a certain day. There's no proof as to whether or not that was actually going to happen. What you have is the woman, that same woman who you were talking about, the gray haired woman who's has this this moment where she says, I was you know, I was ready to kill for him. And she stabs this guy with a needle at one of their retreats or whatever. Right. In the leg.

And he gets sick. He doesn't die. But yeah, they don't even say what she stabbed him with. And I was really curious, like what what fucking poison did she use something to like yeah to get this yeah and you know and she got she got him she stabbed him and at that point that's when the group splits right um because they leave so sheila the secretary and the rest of their group about about 15 or 12 people yeah they they're like yeah we knew at that point, we can't stay here anymore. And so then they peace the fuck out and end up in Germany. That's where they end up.

Yeah. And then the Bhagwan starts coming back. Because this guy is so weird. Like, this is one of the things, too, is like, you know, I know that a lot of people were saying, like, oh, my gosh, he's fucking amazing. He's such a smart dude. He's like the fucking embodiment of peace on Earth. He's the most beautiful human being. You hear these people talk, and they just fawn all over him.

And the stuff he says to the camera is garbage. Like it's not even worth listening to. But then he spends lots of his time in like vows of silence where he just doesn't speak for years at a time. It blew me the fuck away. And they don't address it like, is he writing during this time? You know, how is he writing during this time you know how is how is he

how is he doing anything other than walking around with a fucking beatific smile on his fucking face with his hands clasped in front of him buying Rolexes and being driven around in Rolls Royces like I'm not if you're like how are you a silent guru anybody can not

say that is he everybody has the ability to not speak. Like I heard that same message last night when I wasn't, when I was sleeping. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. When I said that. Yeah.

When I was driving alone. Right. I was a very silent guru. I just, it fucking blew my mind. It was nuts. It's not like, and it's funny because he's not a peaceful guy like the guy does not advocate peace right he's not like a peace at any cost um pacifist like he's very much not like that and he's very much not a um because he says you know like if somebody harms us we will harm them

back you know like certainly isn't a vow of poverty guy either right and he's not a you know like let's be charitable to the world. Like, he's like, yeah, it's good. It's okay to work and to accumulate material possessions. So it's like, fucking literally, how is any of that different than the regular social message? Except for that, like, they had like a free love kind of thing going on. I think that was, yeah. But free love is a fucking old idea.

Yeah. And free love you can do without all the weirdness. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can even do the weirdness if that's your jam. If that's your jam. You know, like, yeah. But free love's a fucking old idea. Yeah, and free love you can do without all the weirdness. Yeah, well, I mean, you can even do the weirdness if that's your jam. If that's your jam. You know, like whatever fucking gets you going. Well, I'm just saying like the weirdness of like this guy being your guy.

I know. He doesn't have to be your guy to do free love. Like you can do, like free love's okay. Go do it. Go fucking work it out. Enjoy it. Yeah. You know?

But basically they're involved in these huge legal struggles at this point because the Bhagwan comes out of fucking silence, right? He emerges from his fucking cocoon of quietude. His fucking flower, his lotus opens and he emerges and he's now

quacking. Now he's saying it was all Sheila who tried to poison people. She tried to kill people. And he's basically just letting all these plots hang now. Now he's saying it was all Sheila who tried to poison people. She tried to kill people. She tried, and he's basically just letting all these plots hang now. Now he's letting out

all the stuff. Which is the dumbest fucking thing he could do. He's like, it's so funny because now he's a fucking, when Sheila leaves, that was like

his right hand. And he felt, I think, very hurt and betrayed is a sense that you get from the documentary. Yeah, absolutely. And so he comes out of silence

and he very stupidly goes on TV and like goes on radio. Like he's telling everybody who will listen about all this illegal shit that Sheila did. And like the fucking prosecutor who they could never get these guys on anything. So like there were all these people who are trying to get the Rajneesh on anything they could.

Any technicality they could possibly get. They were looking at immigration violations. That failed. They were looking at zoning. That failed. They were looking at, they were trying everything they could. The immigration thing doesn't fail in the end. In the end, it doesn't, right?

But, like, it did the first go around. Yeah, absolutely. Like, the first go around, they had nothing. Yeah. So, they're trying anything they can from a legal perspective to get these guys. And then this guy's going to show up on camera and be like, you wouldn't believe the shit that goes down here. Yeah. Whoa.

And it's like, what the, like, part of me was like, are you, why are you so stupid? Like, you shouldn't be doing that shit. Yeah. You should don't. So please don't misunderstand. Like you should. But it's also like, you should have stayed shut up. Yeah.

Like, how can you be that stupid? Don't be doing bad stuff. But when you're a, you should have stayed shut up. Yeah. Like how can you be that stupid? Don't be doing bad stuff. But when you're a bad person, don't be dumb. Yeah. Right. Like don't get a t-shirt printed. Like, you know, I robbed a bank and all I got out of it was this stupid t-shirt or whatever. Like, are you fucking kidding me?

These two bags of money and this stupid t-shirt. Right. What the fucking hell? He's just, it's like, it's like his fucking high school girlfriend left them. And you could tell it's really one of those moments that's really, you know, they're they're both. It felt like they both probably really liked each other or respected each other. And then when they split up now, it's like it's a breakup. What it was was a really bad, ultra public, well-financed breakup.

Messy, shitty breakup. And it's like you're going to air all your dirty laundry, but it's like your dirty laundry includes murder and town poisonings. You know, like attempted murder. Attempted murder, yeah. No, it's awful. And then at that point,

this is when they start getting them on immigration stuff because the immigration stuff, the shenanigans that they were pulling was as they were basically arranging marriages of people who were not citizens to people who were citizens. Right. And they were arranging those marriages and telling people to get married. When you do that, that's breaking the immigration policy. Right. And so, um, it, it basically boils down to, they're going to close in on the Raj niche. They're going to close in. They're getting the national guard mobilized at a certain point. I mean, it was just crazy. And then

the Rajneesh is just like, that fucking, that Bhagwan's just like, I'm getting on a plane. Yeah, I kind of like this part. He boards his fucking plane, this private jet in the middle of the night. They fly off. Everybody's like, they're gone. We got to catch them. And they're trying to catch them in all these different places. And it's too small a jet

to leave the country. Right. It's too small a jet just to fly completely out of the country. And it's too small a jet to leave the country. It's too small a jet just to fly completely out of the country. And by the way, I just want to mention something I didn't mention earlier. They build the city with a runway. So that's how he gets out is because they have a runway at the city. They have

like regular jet airplanes. Jet airplanes come. He takes a little Learjet and he's trying to get to Bermuda because they can't extradite out of Bermuda but they catch him in South Carolina Charlotte'sville is where they get him yeah yeah and they they get him down there and I love I love

it like when they get him I started to interrupt I love what they get him they're like there's one moment where they're like they recovered like two guns and you know $50,000 and his throne like I'm like then you remember that they're like they're like his big fucking chair.

Like it's this little tiny jet. And they're like, bring my chair. I don't know how you're going to get that in there. It's okay. Just strap it on the back. I've got some of those like strap cords, you know, like the ratcheting. Yeah. The ratcheting cords.

But they, they catch him. And then they start, then they start bringing them back. They fuck with him hard on the way back they bring him back nice and slow three weeks bouncing from prison to prison getting strip search everywhere strip search everywhere he goes they're sticking a fucking fist up his ass

I did kind of think that was bullshit they're just charged this guy with at this point the charges for this guy are immigration related and they fuck with him and the DA even says he's like just charged this guy with, at this point, the charges for this guy are immigration-related. Immigration-related, yeah. And they fuck with him. And the DA even says, he's like, yeah, after three weeks of that treatment, he surrendered, is what he said.

Basically, yeah. And then they leave. Now then they pack up and leave. Then they close the entire encampment down. They close the whole city down. And then they leave, and then they go back to India, where they were from initially. And that cult still stuck around for a long time. It's still around now.

Yeah. It's still a functioning thing. You can go to wherever the fuck India and you can hang out in their center. You can hang out and be a neo-Sanirisian or whatever it is. Neo-Clandestine and Nistian. You know, a couple of things that struck me when the whole thing was over too is like, there were some things that bothered me.

So like I read an article not that long ago about like the solve rate for murders, you know, and it was like geographically, like where is the solve rate for murder is particularly bad versus particularly good. And there are many areas of this country where the solve rate for a murder is 33% or less. And a lot of the article focused on the lack of resources and the lack of like community involvement about why these murders where people get away with murder two thirds of the time.

And then you look at something like this and you think, like I had to think like, we've got an attempted murder, some immigration violations, and that was like the extent of the charges. And the amount of resources that we poured, millions of dollars federally, that we poured.

They did try to poison a city too. Into doing that, right. Yeah. I know, but they didn't charge them with that. Like they never actually tied them to that in a way that had any proof. It was all suspected. I think that,

that seems like it happened. I mean, they said that in the interviews after the fact, but the government didn't have anything on that. And it's like, when we are focused on something,

there's no end of resources we will pour into. They even mention this in the thing. They're like, when the government wants you, they will get you. They will get you. They will get you. It just shows like... And that sounds conspiratorial,

and I don't want to sound like that, right? I don't want to sound conspiracy. But it's borne out by the facts. But it is, it is, you know, I mean, like if the government wants to charge you with something, they'll figure out a way to do it. You know what I mean? Like they have, they're the ones who control the entire deck. You know what I mean, like if the government wants to charge you with something, they'll figure out a way to do it. You know what I mean? Like they have, they're the ones who control the entire deck.

You know what I mean? Like they're the ones who make the decisions. We have to trust that the people in power aren't going to abuse this. That's what we have to do. That's the trust we have with governmental institutions. Right. And I think, I don't know, but I think for the most part, that doesn't happen all the time. Right.

It happens on occasion. No, but I think for the most part, that doesn't happen all the time, right? It happens on occasion. But, you know, when you rile up enough people in this tiny little community, they will not stop with the resources. Which is crazy because, like, I was thinking about that compared to, like, Chicago. Like, Chicago, the west side of Chicago. Yeah. You know, like, hundreds of people die every year.

Hundreds versus one attempted murder. Sure. Hundreds of people die every year. Hundreds versus one attempted murder. Hundreds of people are dying and we don't pour anywhere near the city because we're not riled up the same way. It's a much bigger community. It's so many more people affected. Sure. And like the amount of resources we're willing to pour into that is so much different. But we don't even solve 66% of the murders. Sure.

You know, so most of the time you can kill with impunity on the West side, you know? And that's fucking crazy to think about, like, how the differences in terms of, like, who we value when they complain. When these, like, rural white people complain, a hundred of them, there's only a hundred people in Antelope. They get to, they make all this noise and the full force and weight of the government steps in also because it's part of a religion we're scared of. They did some bad shit, don't get me wrong. Well, it happens with everything we're scared of.

It's what happens with immigration right now. How much resources are we putting into the border down there right now? Housing, detaining all these people. How much resources before and after. I know.

Right? When you put your mind to something, when the government puts its mind to something and starts to have a zero tolerance policy against it, they had a zero tolerance policy against the fucking Rajneesh, and they had a zero tolerance policy against border immigrants.

Look at how shitty it gets for those people. It makes me wonder, what if we had a zero tolerance policy toward the immigrants. Look at how shitty it gets for those people. It makes me wonder, what if we had a zero tolerance policy toward the things that actually matter? Toward the things that on a larger social scale actually make a fucking difference if we paid attention to it. Look even just look

at the media though. Somebody gets drive-by'd in Chicago, it'll be on the news for a couple of seconds. Some 12-year-old. Some, you know, 12 year old little girl, white girl gets killed. Yeah. You know, it's JonBenet Ramsey. Right. You know what I mean? Like if it's a pretty white girl, it's right. Yeah. It's the pretty white girl goes missing. You know, it's, oh my God, it's going to be in the fucking tabloids for three years because we don't value everybody the same way, the same way. Exactly. And I watched

this and at the end, I was like, God, we spent how much money to do what exactly? To put Sheila in jail for four years. Yeah. She got four and a half years for her attempted murder. Yeah. He got to go back to India. Another woman got a few years. A few years, yeah. And more years than

Sheila, but yeah. And that's like it. And it's like millions of dollars to do that. Sure. Because that's like it. Yeah. And it's like millions of dollars to do that. Sure. Because a hundred rural white dudes complained and you can have 10,000 urban black people complain and hundreds of them will get murdered every year. And we're going to, you know, we don't invest the same way emotionally or financially or otherwise. Yeah. What I can, what I, what I walked away from with this is with this is I really felt like when I watched it, like, yep, that's a cult. Like, you know,

you could just sort of see how, you know, the larger hierarchy of that structure of that group and people doing awful shit with impunity because they know they can get away with it in their small group and they're doing awful shit

and hurting other people. And that's just a cult. Like with it in their small group. And they're doing awful shit and hurting other people. And that's just a cult. Like, it's just a cult. What was your sense of the self-awareness of the followers that were interviewed? It's hard to tell because, you know, the B-roll showed them being real happy, right?

And I wonder if they got the B-roll from the Rajneesh, right? So, like, the Rajneesh provided their own B-roll or, you know, those, you know, the only people that are taking photos and taking video are of good times, right? You're not taking like a video of somebody screaming at somebody. You're taking a video of, hey, it's our festival or, hey, it's our evening beer or, hey, we just built this, you know, this fucking house. And so the feeling I got from them is that everybody seemed pretty content, right?

And whenever they interviewed people that everybody seemed pretty content, right? And it, and, and whenever they interviewed people, they seem pretty content. So you don't know, but what, what you had, the, the examples that I had, it felt like they felt pretty good.

They felt like they were, they were enjoying it and they liked what they were doing. So that's what I felt from them. But I don't, I mean, again, I don't think that there's much tape that's going to bear out anything else. Do you think culture should be allowed to exist?

That's an interesting question. I always feel like there should be some sort of independent investigation into large cults like that. I think there should be some sort of independent ability of some sort of group to at least pay attention to what's going on. You know what I mean?

At least you should be able to look at their books. You should be able to see what's going on. You know what I mean? Like at least, you know, like, like, you know, you should be able to look at their books. You should be able to see what's going on in their community. You should be able to, um, so that there's no, you know, like, so that they're not fucking raping kids or they're not, you know what I mean? Like there should be some sort of independent something. Should we have an independent review of, of established religious organizations? Oh yeah, absolutely. I think so.

Yeah. I mean, you know, we've proven that the Catholics can't control it. And that's kind of what I was thinking is like, we have we have mountains of evidence that the established religious organizations, like the Mormons, and specifically like the FLDS portion of the Mormons, right?

That's a cult. Like all day long, that's a cult. And like, we're just like sort of tacitly okay with some of them. And like it seems to me like sort of tacitly okay with some of them. And like, it seems to me like the Hasidic Jew, like the, the,

the ultra Orthodox Jewish communities that are ultra isolationist and what have you. Like, I can't see how that's different than any other cult. Sure. And so I sort of like, I sort of feel, I feel conflicted about it because there's a part of me that's like,

well, this is America. Yeah. This is what we've all agreed we want. And I sort of feel like, is this... First, I'm not 100% sure that all cults are necessarily going to devolve into this sort of evil power structure. I don't know that they won't either. But I do think that we do a thing here where we,

we get real nervous. And like, when we get real nervous, we start acting squirrelly around some of these organizations. And then I think that like, that like, that creates a kind of tension, social tension between the organizations.

And I'm thinking too, of like the thing that happened with the Koresh and down in Waco. Yeah. And I don't know all the, all the facts around happened with Koresh down in Waco. Yeah. And I don't know all the facts around that, so I don't want to speak too in-depth. But I do wonder if these things just make us uncomfortable in ways that the established religious bodies that aren't any different and probably aren't any better, do they make us just less uncomfortable because they're more familiar? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, when we talk about cults, we talk about, you know, the power that they have over those people. And you look at Jonestown, you know what I mean? Like you stop and you take a step back at Jonestown and you're just like, holy fucking shit. What a crazy group of people.

For sure. And then you look at Heaven's Gate, you know, there's a group of people that are crazy and that kill themselves, you know, that are just like they're brainwashed and they're, you know. And so I feel like if you have a large group of people, it's probably easy for being in the Hasidic community to sweep rape under the rug. It's probably easy. I don't know if they do. I'm not saying they do. Right. But I think there's a lot of news stories that seem to bear that out.

But I'm saying that it's probably pretty easy to do. It's probably pretty easy to do the same thing with pedophilia. It's probably the same thing to do with domestic violence. Domestic abuse, yeah. So, you know, I want people to have their freedom, but at the same time, I don't want people to be hurt. I don't want people that don't want to be hurt to be hurt. There's that balance, right? Yeah.

And there's a balance there. And so I understand I want people to have their privacy, but at the same time, if you have a group of people that, you know, I don't have anybody in my life that could tell me to drink Kool-Aid and I will. Right. But if there is a power structure in someone's life that can do that, there should be some sort of something there that might be the stop gap. I don't know what, I don't know what the answer to that is, but I certainly feel like some sort of independent oversight is not a bad thing for religions where you do things under the control of someone else. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how it feels. Yeah, it's just an awkward—I know the question doesn't have an answer. And it doesn't have an answer that I feel comfortable with, right?

Because there's a tension. There's a real tension between those two things. Right. I'm very torn. There's a real tension between those two things. Right. I'm, I'm very torn. Like there's a part of me that's like, this is what we want. Like there's a part of me that is still like really wonders.

And there's no way to know, but it's my wonder if, if all that crazy shit in the Rajneesh community would have happened if the people had just let them alone. You know, like let them, yeah you know like let them but it's like we we get squirrely because we don't like i don't know were they a cult before or did they become did they become a cult in response to having to sort of lock down and become more militaristic and sure defend their borders and defend themselves from the town that was seeking actively

to destroy and dismantle them. Like when you have forces that are doing that, I think it makes like responsibly, it makes us circle our wagons. I don't care who we are. When our community is under attack, we circle our wagons and now we give more authority to our leadership because we're under attack. It's like, we did the same thing after 9-11 with Bush. You know, it's like, fuck. All right, here's the pass the Patriot Act. I don't know. What does it mean?

We're not sure. Fucking watch me take a poop. I don't care. You know, like we, we all kind of give up some of our freedom for security. So, so it makes me wonder in this circumstance, if like the Rajneesh would have gone down that road, had they not been pressured. It's possible. I guess I don't know that.

I guess the thing that I think of is the eventual attempted murder occurred because of a schism in their group. Right. Not any outside force. It was the schism in their own group and power structures in their own group. So I wonder, there's part of me that's like, I don't know. I mean, they attempted murder. The worst thing that they did, maybe second worst.

Yeah, the poisoning is probably worse. The poisoning is probably the worst. But the second worst thing they did, I'm like, oh, yeah, that was because of you guys. That wasn't because of anybody else. That was just because of you guys. Right. I just wonder if someone like Sheila could have, if that amount of power would have been invested in the top, if they didn't need to look to a central point of authority of authority yeah it felt like she had that power a lot really early on to me at least that was my

read although i don't know i don't know what they're you know right yeah i don't know i felt like she like came into her own once they were attacked and everybody was like what do we do and this fucking dude sitting in silence yeah and she's like yeah i got this and she's like went on the attack right um but you, you know, I just, like, it makes me curious, like how we deal with cults. Like, what's the right way to deal with a cult?

Like, and I know you have a libertarianist streak in you too. And this is one of those issues where I feel like this is the bed we make when we have... When we decide, yeah. Yeah.

So don't put yourself in that position is the answer. The real answer is don't ever let anybody get into a position where they say you drink this Kool-Aid. Right. You don't put yourself in that position is the is the answer is the real answer is don't ever let anybody get into a position where they say you drink this Kool-Aid. Right. You don't ever get into that position. Well, like a real libertarian would never get into that position because they wouldn't. I don't think that they would ever acquiesce to someone else's demands. is like, is the answer to the cult to have better community, to build stronger communities that fill those needs in ways that are less consuming? I think that's a good idea. Sure. You know, yeah. Like, and that's something that I do think that I wonder about a lot, like, and that I,

like, I can tell you, like, I feel a personal lack of, and the religious have that locked down. They do a nice job of it. Absolutely. And I think that's a hole, like that's a social void that I wonder if cults don't fill for some people that like is really, is the solution to that, to fill that need, to fill that social gap. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, the religious have a very big, deep community, right? And that community is built on the one thing that they all invest themselves in. And so the community is built around common values. Right.

And that's important to a lot of people. Yeah. And they find, like you were saying, maybe finding meaning in what they're doing. These people just find meaning in that because you're, you know, you're now surrounding yourself with people of common values. And so I understand, I do understand that. I get it. And I think the answer to a lot of our social ills are better community. I think the answer to a lot of our social ills. That's why I think like, you know, you look on the west side of Chicago and how they march

over there and they try to get people to stop the gun violence and they try to create community centers and they try to create after-school programs because they've seen time and time again that those things do decrease the gang violence. Right. They give people a sense of community that the gangs, they don't need the gangs. Because the gang is sort of a secular cult.

It's basically a cult. It's basically the same thing. Yeah. I wonder if they have that central leadership angle. I don't need the gang. Because a gang is sort of a secular cult. It's basically a cult. It's basically the same thing. Yeah. I wonder if they have that central leadership angle. I don't know enough about how gangs are organized in general. I'm sure that there's benefits. They see the benefits. Young kids see the benefits of being in a gang in the sense that they're probably going to make money and they're going to have influence. Safety and protection. Safety and protection.

There's a lot of things that they see as benefits of that. But I would say check that out. It's a good series. It's a lot of things that they see as benefits of that. But I would say check that out. It's a good series. It's a well-done documentary. They clearly have a slant in that documentary. For sure, yeah. They show you the pieces that they want you to emote about at that time. But it was a really interesting

series to see how, you know, I mean, really some very candid views of how that group reacted and interacted. Yeah, and I like that they, at the end, one last thought is at the end, you do get an interview with somebody who is still a true believer, the

gentleman who's a lawyer. The lawyer, yeah. And then you also get the final words of Sheila, who's kind of more mixed now. Yeah. And then you get the words of somebody who's like, that was a fucking cult. And like, I was 43 and I almost murdered somebody and things got weird. And so I,

I liked that. I liked that. It, it, it did not shy away from all of those angles. Yeah. Um, the soundtrack is terrible.

Yeah. I will say, Oh my God, it's one of the worst soundtracks in all of time. There were, there's a few times where the music is like, distracting me bad. I remember,

yeah, I remember some of the music is really bad. Yeah, it's really funny. It's really bad. I remember there's a couple times and like,

they're like singing one thing over and over and over again and I kept like, just thinking to myself, I'm like, please don't say it again. Please. I know.

It was like the same word. The same, there was, there was a song in like, episode five or six that goes on for, I think, six hours. It's still playing. Oh my gosh, it's so bad. So the like the same word. The same. There was, there was a song in like episode five or six that goes on for, I think six hours. It's still playing.

Oh my gosh. It's so bad. So the music is not great. No, it's a great talk. But I will say that, like I said earlier, the B roll in that is just,

that's a treasure to have all that great B roll. Check it out though. If you get a chance. Well, that was fun playing around with Wild Wild Country. So we hope you guys enjoyed that. It's a little different than what we normally do. We don't do that sort of thing.

So we hope you enjoyed it. It was an interesting series, though. You guys should check it out. If you haven't watched it, check it out. Yeah, for sure. But that's going to do it for this week. It's a little short episode, but we thought it was worth recording, worth putting out.

And we didn't put it out as a full episode, so it's just a Thursday thing. So we hope you enjoyed it. And we're going to leave you like we always do with the Skeptic's Creed. Credulity is not a virtue. It's fortune cookie cutter, mommy issue, hypno-Babylon bullshit. Couched in scientician, double bubble, toil and and Trouble, Pseudo-Quasi-Alternative, Acupunctuating, Pressurized, Stereogram, Pyramidal, Free Energy, Healing, Water, Downward Spiral, Brain Dead, Pan, Sales Pitch, Late Night Info-Docutainment. foot massage, death in towers, tarot cards, psychic healing, crystal balls, bigfoot, yeti,

aliens, churches, mosques, and synagogues, temples, dragons, giant worms, atlantis, dolphins, truthers, birthers, witches, wizards, vaccine nuts, shaman healers, evangelists, conspiracy, double speak, stigmata, nonsense. speak stigmata nonsense. Expose your sides. Thrust your hands. Bloody, evidential, conclusive. Doubt even this.

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