Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 547: Aaron Rabinowitz & V4C 2019 Part 9

Episode Date: October 26, 2020

Thank you to Aaron Rabinowitz from @ for joining us.  Make sure to follow and listen to their show.   As always thanks to everyone who donated to Vulgarity for Charity last year. If you haven't already make sure to go follow our friends at  

This episode of Cognitive Dissonance is brought to you by our patrons. You fucking rock. Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. recording live ish from glory hole studios in chicago kind of this is cognitive dissonance every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way we bring critical thinking skepticism and irreverence to any topic that makes the news makes it big or makes us mad it's skeptical it's political and there is no welcome matt this is episode 545 nope of cognitive distance nope nope it is not that's an absurd thing to say who would ian just just just fill in just fill in an episode just go ahead and numerically designated as sequentially following the prior episode fix it in of itissonance. It's 48, I think,

but I don't know. Fucking really? I'm that far off? Yeah, dude, you're pretty far off. I don't know. I think it's 48. I think so. Fuck me, Ronnie.

That's what happens when we take a break. I can't... Ian will fix it. Don't worry. Ian will fix it in post. It's good. Ian will fix it in post.

It'll fix it. All this will go away. Nobody would ever keep this in here. Shame me. We're good. It's episode 547. We are joined tonight

by Aaron. Should I use your last name, Aaron Rabinowitz, or should I not use your last name, Aaron Rabinowitz? Yeah, no, we've given up on that long ago. Am I using it? Okay. Alright. So we are joined by Aaron Rabinowitz from Embrace the Void and Philosophers in Space. He's come down from the heights

of space to join us. I appreciate that. How is everything up there, Aaron? Good? Yeah, I got a special ivory tower built up there, space ivory tower. It's real nice. It's comfy.

You know, we saw your article in The Skeptic about Monster Island, and we really wanted to talk to you about this because we spend our time around really toxic people, but we never communicate with them. And so we really were curious about this. Are you talking about me again? Because my ears are burning.

I am. And so I was curious, can you first off explain what Monster Island is to the people who don't know? And then we'll go from there. I think we're going to talk about your findings though, because that's where we want to start. And then we'll go backwards from there.

Yeah. And I want to start by strictly saying findings in the loosest sense of the word. Oh no, this is a scientific study. I'm expecting. I'm expecting the paper soon. There should be rigor involved. I don't want to call for many IRBs.

So if you don't mind, let's keep this informal. Philosophy is one of the hard sciences. Yes. So what is the Monster Island experiment? Monster Island was something we started during the 2016 election. So 10 or 20,000 years ago. And it was a project to... Basically, it originally starts because I was,

like many people in 2016, having a lot of really heated debates on my Facebook wall. And it was involving some far-right individuals, and it was spilling all over all of my friends' walls, and I was getting messages, can you please, please do something about this? So we put together Monster Island as a private free-for-all debate group where the goal, my personal goal, was to test a hypothesis that I feel like is still dominant for reasons that are unclear to me that if you have just enough free speech and open debate and you make it as free and as unmoderated as possible then like the kingdom of heaven will

dawn and everyone will understand all the true right beliefs and that'll be amazing um and so wait a minute hold on i gotta slow you down like he's channeling peter bagation here that was going to happen who are you channeling? This is James Lindsay. Am I talking to James Lindsay right now? Is that who I'm talking to? Exactly. Unbelievable.

I'm testing the hypothesis of certain free speech individuals. I personally did not necessarily expect it to go that way. I certainly expected it to go, roughly speaking, the way that all human beings do. But I think it's important to recognize that part of not science, part of mad science is testing claims that we all know are probably true, but you got to get the fake

data for it in order to back it up. And so like, you know, that's why every month I touch the burner on my stove just to check if it's still going to hurt. I do. Just because you don't know. You know, it could change. I zip my nut back into my zipper every single day. One day, it's going to be like throwing up an apple and it's going to float.

You know, it's just not going to hurt. It's going to be amazing. I just, you know, social problems are slightly more complicated than your dick arrangement. I'm not saying your dick arrangement isn't complicated. I just, you know, social problems are slightly more complicated than your dick arrangement. I'm not saying your dick arrangement isn't complicated. I'm just saying. Especially with all the hair. It's very complicated. I'll be perfectly frank.

Aaron, did you name it from the beginning, Monster Island? Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm a classic horror movie. I'm just saying that does set the fucking tone a little bit. Well, I mean, that's an interesting point. I think everyone's going to behave really well over at Monster Island. Well, so, it's actually, it was a bit of reverse psychology was the idea that if everybody comes into it saying, oh, everyone here is a bunch of monsters and such.

such. And the idea is to still be able to manage to have some sort of debate while acknowledging that everyone here is going to say any horrible thing that they genuinely believe. That, I mean, that in theory is what the like free speech folks are really saying people should do. That people should just get out in the open with their Holocaust denial and their white supremacy and shit like that. And then they'll get laughed off the stage and then everything will be great. And it's just, obviously that doesn't work. But I do think it was an interesting activity to see if on a small scale, we could have a space that was unmoderated and still managed to allow for some cross-pollination of ideas. And I will say it wasn't a total bloodbath as far as how things went. Like it wasn't, you know, in the article, I play up a little bit the dark side of it, and there was plenty of dark side to it. But there was also some, like, positive experiences that people had with regard to Monster Island. And many of them, in a very amusingly cathartic way, came forward after the article and talked about, here are the ways that my experiences with Monster Island helped me grow and such. article and talked about here are the ways that my experiences with monster island helped me grow and such so let me let me ask you a couple it's just who did you invite how do you get because

i didn't get an invitation to monster i don't want to put that out there for the audience aaron specifically i think did not invite me to monster i wrote out there a couple of times if i know that you'd be there i would have invited y'all you know so it started out with literally like the five or ten people including me me, a couple of serious liberals. Sorry, I shouldn't say liberals. A couple of far left Marxist types. They would be mad if I called them simply liberals. Right.

Far left Marxist types and one moderate conservative who's like my friend, the white rhino. And then a couple of far right, you know, ranging from, I'm not a white nationalist. I just have these feelings too. I'm very definitely a white nationalist and I want you to think of me in that way explicitly. So we had the whole spectrum of the right going on there. Nice.

Yeah. And then, you know, from there we tried to grow the group. Ted Cruz and Jeff Sessions, both of them, right? um yeah and then you know from there we tried to grow the group ted cruz and jeff sessions both of them right ted cruz the wishy-washy one but jeff sessions he knows what's up okay i get it i get it i know where you're coming from yeah exactly i gotta ask i'm gonna interrupt really quickly though were you friends like outside of any of electronic space with any of these people um no i actually came to know these folks through like friend-to-friend kind of situation. Okay, all right. I just wanted to check because that may

come into play later on. Okay, please continue. Yeah, I was going to. Thank you. These are exclusively online connections. These are some serious cross-examination questions. I feel like I'm going to get a ball and drop 20 of this whole thing. I mean, I think we all know how this ends and we all understand

I think when you said, you know, what's going to happen before it even happens. I also pretty much knew that none of these people were your friends. I pretty much, I mean, I think before I even asked the question, I pretty much had an idea that none of these people were going to be your friends because I don't think it's a place where you can interact with your friends. friends because I don't think it's a place where you can interact with your friends. Now, let me say, I did have a couple of real life friends who then at some point joined the group and were to some extent involved, I would say. People from my philosophy world, for the most part, folks who like debates, right? But what I thought you meant mostly like the far right folks.

And on that front, those were all, you know, I didn't know any of these right wingers. You didn't invite your far right friends. Yeah, I don't have any of those, unfortunately. When did you stop beating your wife, Aaron? So anyway, continue. I'm sorry I interrupted. Please continue. so anyway continue I'm sorry I interrupted please continue so here you are

you've got a basically a free speech wasteland that's open to you it can be built however people see fit and they do what they just shit in the desert is that what happened

it was just a utopia it was a hate filled utopia so i would say yes there were certainly i think there were actual debates that happened and it wasn't like it immediately went from zero to garbage i do think there were like distinct phases of like descent uh into the inferno here um but like yeah i think that the the folks we initially started out with were a little more committed to the idea and then as we face difficulties expanding the group especially on the right wing side the people who ended up filling in that space were they were not sending their best and that was difficult but I do

I would say that there were some good discussions until people showed up whose main goal was just to meme bomb every conversation as much as they could and like because we didn't have rules about deleting or blocking there was nothing I mean like we got to a point

where some folks were blocking each other and that was eventually just accepted, but the moderators weren't allowed to block or be blocked by anyone because they needed to be able to like do their moderating job. And so I had to filter through just so much really terrible spam

and eventually I just got sick of it and left the island. Hold on, I want to read one of your rules because this is one that really touched my heart. I just want to read it aloud. You, of course, mentioned doxing earlier, blocking admins, explicit threats of violence, blah, blah, blah. But this one is

my favorite. Taking photos from people's personal profiles and photoshopping them into sex acts with military dictators. That is oddly specific. What's so specific? That's oddly specific. You know, they tell you in writing class that specifics are what matter. You got to get the details in there.

It's got to feel real. So would it be safe to say that it was entirely fine to take someone's picture and photoshop them into sex acts with all other people other than military dictators? No, not necessarily. It wasn't like it was you know, I would say that I was putting a finesse on the broader

rule of don't take other people's material from their homepages and photoshop it in inappropriate ways. That was just the particular case that brought about the rule involved julie or no involved um uh what is his name asad in russia and someone's wife and some compromising positions oh jesus christ yeah cry like what i what amuses

the hell out of me when i read that article is like, it's unfettered free speech and very quickly was like, it's slightly fettered free speech. It's getting more fettered by the moment. Like by the second. Let's fetter the fuck out of that free speech.

Can somebody get more fetters? We need more fetters. We're going to run it out of them. Yeah. It was really interesting though. I mean, like we all know where it's going to go,

but it's interesting to watch the, like, like, the dam break and see which direction the water goes and, like, which villages are taken out in the process. Like, I didn't know immediately that the first rule was going to have to be no deleting things. The people were just going to start deleting stuff

and making, like, threads incoherent so they could look like they were smarter than they actually were. Like, that wouldn't have been my guess about what the first rule was going to start deleting stuff and making threads incoherent so they could look like they were smarter than they actually were. That wouldn't have been my guess about what the first rule was going to be. So that's an interesting bit of fact. Admittedly, I do that with our show every week. That's the editing process.

And I'll tell you right now, it works. It works in 30 seconds. It works. So I just want to say so. Yeah. You have an outsourced out that someone else comes in

and fluffs it in for you at this point? All right. So, so it's, there were some rules. There were a handful of rules that you had to establish

because you had moderators. So the moderators didn't just sit on their hands. Like the moderators had to moderate. Well, it was originally, it was just me.

And then, we got to a point where we elected a high council because there was too much complaining and I didn't want to deal with it. And I was testing a secondary, like we've killed our major objective at this point, right?

We've murdered unfettered free speech. So now we're finding out like, is there any kind of fettered speech that will allow for engagement with these individuals? We've moved to secondary targets, right? What's the, okay. Yeah. What's the title of a high councilman on Monster Island?

Is there a specific title or is it just high councilman? Is that? Wait, is the main guy like Dr. Moreau? Like. Okay. I'm sorry for that. So you kept, you did, you did have a moderator group though. So, and I, and in the article you say that you tried to lean it right because the most of the people on the right were actually upset because they kept on saying that this was a left leaning group, no matter what you did.

Right. So we, we deliberately tilted it right. what you did. Right. So we, we deliberately tilted it right. Um, the one of the, like the far right guy who I'd been arguing with on my wall originally became one of those members, one of those individuals and the moderate right unicorn became the other one. Um, and then eventually we added a, uh, a lefty trans individual when I stepped back. Uh, I think, yes, I believe she's trans. Um, and so, yeah, that was, uh, not helpful at all. Didn't really do much of anything. Um, it took the efforts off of my shoulders. I didn't have to deal with nearly as much bullshit as a result. I were still a bunch of bullshit, but like, you know, it made that other people had to deal with it. And then I had

to read their chat about the other chat and then, you know, make my own particular comments on it. But like, it didn't in any way assuage the right-wingers to feel like they were properly represented. And much like our current federal government, I think no amount of tilting it to the right is going to give them the feeling that they are sufficiently represented. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so, you know, what's interesting about this is that in the world outside of Monster Island, there is a group of people that are conservative or claim to be classical liberals, whatever the fuck that means, which really just means,

I'm a conservative, give me your money. But those people... Libertarian, I think, is the correct term. Libertarians are... Get the fuck out is the correct term. Libertarians are... Get the fuck out of here with that. Libertarians are basically... They're like liberals with a fascist fetish. Like there's a fascist kink there that they just can't get rid of.

They're like closet fascists. Anyway, so this is... I will probably lose all of your audience by saying I know some good libertarians, but I mostly, for the most part, agree with you. But I'm just going to say, I'm just going to put that out there because, you know, libertarians are folks who I like to dunk on like everyone. And I have also talked to some libertarians who I think are more reasonable and interesting in their perspectives. They are just not the dominant position that we know of with regard to libertarianism. So you get libertarians, you get conservatives mostly saying,

look, I think that free speech should be unfettered. I think that this should be something that we should strive for. We should always try to have conversations. Let's get it into the marketplace of ideas. Let's see what happens. These are common phrases that you hear all the time, unmoderated free speech.

But from what it sounds like, when I read the article, and I'm interested to hear if this is true, it sounds like the conservatives tried to break it. It sounds like they came in trying to ruin it. Isn't this the thing that they jerk off to at night? Why try to wreck it? I don't even understand what's happening. Yeah, well, I think the problem is

there are certainly probably some conservatives who genuinely value the free marketplace of ideas and genuinely think it'll bring about the right kinds of outcomes or something. But I think there's a large contingent that is just really into trolling the libs at this point, and that

they want an unfettered marketplace so that there are the least amount of restrictions for trolling the libs at this point and that they want an unfettered marketplace so that there are the least amount of restrictions for trolling the libs and so like there was there were some people who like genuinely just wanted to like break the island just to prove that they could burn anything down if they had if they put enough time into it um but i think there are also just people who just like want to torture other people and feel like that can be a space in which they can do so and so people and like to be, the liberals tortured them back, the lefties tortured them back. So it's just like, it is a mutual circle jerk of torturing each other,

but it is certainly a torturous process in that kind of way. Now, you know, this like marketplace of ideas thing, the argument that I hear most often, and this comes back to the sort of high council problem, which is the complaint is always, well, if you're going to have moderators, who's going to be moderating and who gets to make the final decision and what are the rules? And then you immediately start hating the rules and claiming that they are being implemented in unfair ways. And so, you know, you end up with our president complaining that Facebook and Twitter aren't treating him well enough or something like that, right? So, like, it does scale up, I think, to a very current, very serious

problem of, you know, this is actually something we see a lot in ethics, broadly speaking. I, at least, you know, once a talk about ethics, we'll have somebody ask, well, who gets to decide what's ethical and what isn't ethical? And that's just a problem. It's just, and the answer is we do as best we can as a group, like, and moderation, I think generally has to be done on that group level in that kind of way. And it's just, we don't have a solution right now for these incredibly large scale platforms

that aren't effectively group moderated in a useful way like this. You know, I want to ask you just a question. I will get mildly philosophical in doing so. A couple of questions. So the marketplace of ideas, it just struck me like in a marketplace, in an actual marketplace, one of the ideas is that economic forces drive out the bad and they enhance the good, right? That's, I mean, I'm oversimplifying, but not too much. enhance the good, right?

That's, I mean, I'm oversimplifying, but not too much. But it strikes me that like, that's exactly the wrong analogy for speech, particularly speech on online platforms where speech is cost-free and voluminous and nobody has to purchase it, right? So there is no economic factor and you can take money out of it and talk about economics in all kinds of different ways.

But like, there are no economic factors, which actually would create the same kind of market dynamic that would push bad speech away. Instead, you just get all of the speech you get. There's no sieve. There's no funnel. It all just is shit into the same pile. And there's no reason for that to reduce down and distill its way down into the better. So I would say, and I'm not saying they successfully do it, but I would say one way to understand how places like Twitter and Facebook work when they're

not just sucking up your data for ad revenue is they are trying to construct a system that does function more like a market by like, for example, using upvotes or something, right? The idea is the market will respond to good ideas by upvoting them and, you know, liking them and retweeting them and sharing them and people will build their platforms. And again, right, it doesn't work for a lot of reasons perfectly, but like neither does an actual market either, right? The hypothetical, like the theoretical version you just described is not like the thing that actually exists out in the world in either case. But I do think they are at least attempting to create a kind of space where it isn't just like absolute garbage. Because at the end of the day, if it's just 100% absolute garbage,

they lose people because people get bored of that site. You know, some amount of people get bored of that site. Whereas I think if they can manage to figure out some way to improve the quality of their content without pissing off too many of their users, they can try to find a space where they hold people in much more. But, you know, like push a little bit on a couple of things. I was actually speaking like outside of like the administrative nature of like Facebook and Twitter and they're sort of top down. But I'm talking about from the bottom up, there's, you know, there's not like Monster Island and being the example, like there's no force within Monster Island to have a real marketplace of ideas that

distills out the shit and, you know, eventually ends up with a higher quality discourse. I also think there's an important distinction between, and that is the distinction between good versus controversial. Controversial gets upvoted and people talk back, right? And so we've seen that that's what's

actually engaging. Absolutely. That's what people like. So it seems like one of the driving forces from the top down, algorithmically, is to drive controversial content rather than to drive quality content. But two points there. The one about bottom up, the other one about top down. No, I think those are both good points. And I think you're right that, you know, I do think there are attempts to try to drive some amount of quality,

but I do think you're also totally right that at the end of the day, controversial material drives more attention than anything else. And controversial material is not making a distinction between good and bad controversial material, productive and unproductive. And this is why, like, at the end of the day, I'm fully okay with Alex Jones being banned from Twitter and think that, you know, like, he is a kind of reductio ad absurdum of the absolutist view that, you know, we should be allowing everybody on all of these platforms to do whatever they want and let, you know, let the internet sort it out. So, yeah, I agree with you. Because it just doesn't sort it out.

Right, because it doesn't. You're right. Yeah, you're totally right. Like, it seems like one of the problems is that there's no cost. On an individual basis, as a user, there's no cost to me. Like, and I'm going to say that in a lot of different ways. There's no cost to engage a platform. And there's no cost if I'm horrible on it. And there's no cost if I'm horrible on it. And there's no cost. One of the notes that I had written for the conversation was like,

we have relatively unfettered, unmoderated free speech in the real world. And it goes typically fairly civilly, typically. It goes better than it does on the internet, right? I think that that's a, I don't want to say it goes typically civilly, but it goes better than it does on the internet, right? I think that that's a, I don't want to say it goes typically civilly, but it goes better than it does on the internet. Like I haven't gotten to a screaming match with anybody in a long time in the real world, but it's real easy to get called every name in the book

in 20 minutes on the internet if you just want to go, and everybody's had that experience. And it strikes me that like in the real world, there's costs, right? We face social costs. And there's also like payment costs, like actual dollar and cents costs to engage in a lot of different kinds of speech-related activities. It's kind of this one wild west world where there's no cost.

So it's like it's unfettered free speech but it's also like um consequence free in a lot of ways and cost free and i think it's interesting you could type all night i think it's interesting to watch especially leftists in particular try to push back on that problem to try to create genuine costs on the internet through things like, you know, not doxing necessarily, but like trying to get people fired from their jobs if they are showing up at white nationalist rallies or making a bunch of white nationalist claims on the internet, right? Tucker's writer getting fired for his extracurricular racist activities, for example. So I do think there are more costs on the internet than there were when I was growing up, for example. Like it's,

it is more of, and you see it also as well in like boycott campaigns that attempt to, you know, control the behavior of corporations by extracting a cost from them, using the internet as a way to scale up those boycotts. And I think at least that has been effective enough that you have conservatives complaining about woke culture, you know, going after corporations all of the time. And obviously, like, it's a stupid cat and mouse game where the corporations do things to try to adjust without actually. And I'm like, I'm not saying anything actually fixes any of these problems. I totally agree with you that the reason the internet acts the way it does is because degrees of anonymity, even if you can't have perfect anonymity, do make it much easier to act immorally and not face any repercussions. So the costs are like mob justice related, you know, like and that's vigilantism like extended and that's vigilantism extended. And that's problematic.

Yeah, so this is a complicated question. Who decides what's right and wrong? That's tough. Yeah, well, I'm sympathetic to this. And so, for example, I'm not a huge fan of attempts that I'm aware of to try to get certain professors fired for arguing for controversial positions. At the same time, there was one professor, for example, who expressed some just really explicitly racist and misogynistic positions and is a tenured professor, and they didn't fire him. They put a bunch of rules in place where he's not in charge of grading anymore, so he, like impact his students with his racism and such like that. And I'm, that is to some extent, maybe a better compromise, but I think it,

you know, it still puts students in a very awkward position who are taking that particular class. And then I think, you know, the same sort of trade-offs exist on the internet as well, when we're trying to address how to approach, you know, do you let the person on? Do you put a tag next to their comments saying this is fake news? Like, what is the right way to improve the situation? I know you sort of maybe lean in some ways towards we should all just get off of these sites, but I think that that tends to be a bit of a non-starter.

And so I'm interested in anything that looks like genuine attempts to try to improve the quality of these situations because I don't think they're going anywhere. Yeah so I'm interested in anything that looks like genuine attempts to try to improve the quality of these situations because I don't think they're going anywhere. I'll agree. I think that it is a non-starter to suggest that people are going to stop engaging in discourse online. And I just don't think that the real market forces from the top down are going to fix it. So what's interesting to me is that we have to fix it from the bottom up, but the bottom up is where the problem lies.

Yeah. And so I don't know, I just don't know, like, how do we, and I'm curious what your thoughts are in terms of your optimism or lack thereof to finding real solutions toward having spaces online that are effective spaces for people to go to that are safe that you would want your kids to be on so like and i know like oh won't someone think of the children as like boring but i also i happen to have a bunch of kids just a whole shit ton of them you're saying you've gotten boring is what you're telling me terrified of them going online yeah i am fucking boring but like

i'm scared of the idea that kids going online at all right because you know it it takes about three clicks to enter some of the most toxic place i mean just horrifying mean-spirited evil shit is just a handful of curious kid clicks away and so that so it's one thing to talk about how a bunch of consenting adults and the ideas that they're going to be exposed to, but we're also raising every subsequent generation forever with access in their hand

without parental supervision most of the time because kids take their phone, leave the house to some of the most toxic, evil shit out there. So how do you fix that when the market forces are working against you as an individual or against us as a society? And you have five minutes to answer this

and we're going to hold you to it. You have to fix it in five minutes. So go, fix it. I'm just curious if you think it can be fixed. Well, I guess, you know, I'm not optimistic about much of anything these days. I'll be right honest with you about all of that. Like, just for starters,

don't put me in the optimist camp. I'm only optimist proportional maybe to some other individuals. But like, I fall back on my community organizing stuff when I think about the answers to these kinds of questions in the sense that like, you know, I don't expect Facebook to solve the problem for me, nor do I expect human nature

to radically change in some way to solve the problem for me. What I can do is create a space like our Philosophers in Space Facebook group. I imagine you guys have a Cognizant Facebook group and, you know, work with moderators

or do various... There are ways that you can set up a community that I think can be very healthy and safe and constructive. I would be very comfortable, for example, having children in... I'm not going to invite them in because I don't want to get in trouble, but if they freely wanted to show up in our...

I'm going to the house, kids! I would not be at all concerned that they would see something in the Philosophers in Space Facebook group that I would feel uncomfortable justifying to anyone's parents. If you're allowing your kid to be... And I think there is a reality that kids are going to face some risk with having access to being online. I faced risks with having access to being online when I was growing up. I think the internet is a really valuable tool for young people, but can also present a variety of risks. And I just, given that it seems to me to be fundamental infrastructure of the universe now, I think the way that we do this is give them spaces online where we have good

reason to think they will be, you know, at fairly low risk. It's going to take at least 10 or 20 clicks to get them to the white nationalists and hope that those spaces will, you know, be of interest to them. And then, you know, push as hard as we can to get places like YouTube to take down, you know, white nationalist propaganda. And like that, that's the best that I think that we're going to make of this. What is it about, I'm curious your thoughts as a philosopher too, what is it about the internet?

Is it exposing who we really are? Or is it, because I don't think that it is, or is it amplifying within us something particularly egregious that is not necessarily, I think that would not necessarily amplify otherwise. So like it's kind of the road rage problem. Like if I'm standing in a line, nobody cuts in line.

Everybody's polite. Somebody bumps into somebody, excuse me, no problem. That's how lines typically work when we're physically present next to each other. Put everybody in a car and somebody cuts you off and everybody's flipping everybody off because they're surrounded by an anonymity cage. Put people on the internet, we move one step further and the behavior gets worse. What's your thought on, is it revealing of the truth of how people really think and feel? Or is it actually driving some of that accelerated behavior?

So I'm with, I guess, cribbing from Aristotle here in that I think human beings are neither like good or bad in essence. They have the capacity for both and are made good or bad by habit and experience and their actions and choices in their lives. And so I think, you know, the internet, so I'm sympathetic to the situationalist kinds of concerns that if human beings are put in the right kinds of environments, they turn into monsters very quickly. That was part of the joke for me about calling it Monster Island is that it does, you know, we do see in places like Abu Ghraib Prison, in places like, you know, there's a lot of issues with it, but people will point to things like the Stanford Prison Experiment or the Milgram Experiments as situations that suggest that

our morality as human beings is tied to certain social cues. And if you take away those social cues, you can really easily turn people to doing very unethical things that they wouldn't do otherwise. So there's certainly, I think, a reasonable idea that the Internet is one of those kinds of spaces and so is making it easier for people to slide in that direction. Then on the flip side, I think, you know, the internet also has shown how people can become incredibly interconnected and how human beings are natural community builders and they come together and they, you know, huddle against the darkness and try to help each other in any small ways that they can. So I think, you know, the saying is just a tool idea is not perfect because tools do have different features and natures to them. And so like certain tools are more deadly, certain tools are more dangerous.

And I think the internet is a very, very powerful tool that is able to help people do a bunch of horrible things and also a bunch of great things. I mean, I think, you know, look at podcasts, look at y'all's podcasts, right? How much, how many people will be listening to your podcast if there wasn't this infrastructure for sharing it out there and forming communities around it? Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think one of the things that we tend to do when we think about the badness of the internet is we try to think about the societal concerns of it. But when we think about the goodness of the internet, we think about the individual benefits that it gives us. And so those two things are hard to weigh because when you look at the societal harms that it causes, we see massive division in the way in which people are

interacting nowadays, way more than I think when I was growing up. It certainly feels more divided than it ever has been. And so there's a feeling like that is a huge negative, but then you think about all those wonderful places on the internet, like for instance, Reddit, buy me a pizza, where people are hungry and they ask someone to buy them a pizza and someone goes to their credit card and buys some random dude a pizza who's hungry for the evening. That's a bit of joy on the internet that is just not available if it doesn't exist. Hell, modest needs doesn't exist if there's no internet

and modest needs has changed lives after life after life. So I see where I think we always get caught up. I wanna ask though, and I do wanna shift a little bit because I wanna ask, we never really got to the end of the story. What is the negative outcomes of this? And if there's any positive outcomes, feel free to say them. I know there aren't, but go ahead and go ahead and say a positive outcome if you want. But I really want to talk about some of these negative outcomes and I'd like you to get to that part of the story. So any negative, so you just ended it and that was it? That was the end of the story,

Aaron? Is that it? Or is, and we all forgot about it? Is that, is that it? It was all a dream. All right. I will say the many of the people who met each other on Monster Island are still friends and happily interact on Facebook, not including a guy named Ryan Balk, who was one of the, I really want you to understand that I am absolutely a white nationalist. I am not playing around with the idea. I'm not, yeah, no, we're not, we're not pretending here. I believe that people need to get out in the streets and race war. And he did indeed get out in the streets and race for her as far as I can tell. He was in Kenosha during that shooting. He joined up with Kyle's militia group prior to the shooting.

He was promoting himself as the tactical advisor of that militia group and that they were in communication with each other. of that militia group and that they were in communication with each other. There's some people, it's not clear, it may be possible that Kyle, that this is the person that Kyle called immediately after the shooting possibly. Anyway, there's a case going on right now against them, a civil case

for essentially promoting violence online that led to actual violence in the real world. So yeah, in a group of probably 300 people on Facebook, I directly and consistently for several years interacted with somebody who then went out and helped facilitate the murder of two protesters in Kenosha. So that was part of the story where we decided we're going to close this group down now.

Yeah, wow. That is, and you know, the thing is that it's impossible to know, but if you see the way people can tune each other up online, you know, sometimes you can see that that sort of happens in other places too.

I mean, I know that the insole boards are where people go to get tuned up by other guys that are also very frustrated and very upset and very misogynistic, and they get tuned up by each other, and there's nobody there. There's no baffle. There's nothing to stop it.

There's nothing. There's no counteract. And so is it, the difference here though, is that you guys supposedly had baffles installed. I mean, the leftists in this group and the liberals in this group, they're the baffles to this bad idea, alt-right stuff. Did they, clearly they must not have had any effect then,

right? I mean, if we think about it in that sense, whether you're in a group of people that's all you're the people that are thinking, are in sort of lockstep in that idiot circle that's in lockstep or that idiot circle that's not in lockstep, it doesn't matter. It sounds like you could still get tuned up

and hurt somebody. Yeah, and I'll go you one worse. It's possible that, you know, being made fun of and, you know, like, oh, if you really believe this, then actually do it by a bunch of lefties in that group, I don't know, could have further encouraged him to do that. Like, I'm not saying that's actually what happened. We don't know that's actually what happened. you carry around right that like you know is is this um constantly taunting and you know fuck around and find out attitude go you know gonna push someone to like actually do the thing um i do i do mostly for the most part think that like he showed up to that group you know like looking to escalate over the course of his life and was probably headed on that trajectory anyway

i think that he was involved in much much worse worse groups than our group. But like, I, you know, that is, that is something to think about. You know, it's funny though, because like, and, and again, I'm, I recognize that my biases are showing, but like, it does seem very much the case that like we stay, we stay in places of conflict much longer online than we do in person. And like the ability and desire to double down because we don't have any of those social handcuffs that you have when you're in person. You just, you know, I think like, just like arguing online seems particularly tailor-made not to change your mind, but to entrench you more deeply into your own belief set. And I think there's been some studies that have demonstrated that that actually is fairly

true. So I wonder if like, because, you know, like when thinking about like when you're having an in-person conflict, those tend to be relatively short lived when you're in a real heated argument with somebody, like a heated moment. But people will stay in conflict online for weeks or days or months online. And if we continue, and if you double down and entrench because Aaron's making fun of me and I'm not going to be made fun of and I can keep coming back to that conflict and coming back to that conflict, that strikes me as like psychologically disadvantageous for our wellbeing, right? Yeah. Like, I don't know that, but it, it, it just, it just seems intuitively true. No, I totally agree. And I think this is an addictive substance

and like the jokes in the, the article about this being an addictive substance that would suck people in and, you know, you get into these like cycles of rage and and stuff is is 100 genuine and like i vividly remember the day where i was you know heatedly involved with this particular person on monster island who was my least favorite human being in the universe who was like someone i ended up blocking and i'm much happier because i have blocked them out of all of my social media. And I was like, you know, deeply involved with arguing with this incredibly toxic person. I'm like, why the fuck am I doing this? Like, why am I engaging with this incredibly toxic person and including this in my life? And it was like, you know, it was sort of like a snap moment where you're just like,

I'm just, I'm done with this. I've hit my point. I've hit bottom and I'm out. So like, there are ways to do it better. And like this was not this was the goal of this project was not to do it better. The goal of this project was to see if this could work out in these with these certain kinds of constraints put on it. It was not a heavily moderated that use interesting rules. And one of the rules that I've seen that's apparently effective is if you're going to try to change somebody's mind, don't go more than four or five comments. That the back and forth shouldn't be longer than like four or five exchange. Because what they find is like the odds of you changing your mind after four or five comments just plummet. And that's just a reality of the situation.

So if you create a space where people can have fruitful or meaningful exchanges in that short kind of way, there is a little bit more mind changing that I think you can actually do online. Now, I've seen on your Twitter account, you've shared another site that does do debate. That's sort of a more academic debate. Is that, can you talk about that for a second? You've shared it a couple of times, so I'm curious about it. Yes, LetterWiki is the site. And I really like the guys who set it up. And I think it is a genuine attempt to create, again, a creative kind of community and space that pulls against the

natural instincts of the internet by encouraging these long form, very, you know, like very trad kind of letter writing behavior, which really actually I've found to be actually quite satisfying to engage in like, you know, super traditional, dear sir, right? And layout, you know, I was so good to hear from you. I really appreciate your thoughts and back and forth kind of stuff. It's a fun place for me as an academic to kind of like test drive ideas

in a low stakes environment where I can feel like I can get some feedback and I can, but it's a little bit more permanent than like a Twitter debate. Because like I can, but it's a little bit more permanent than like a Twitter debate because like I can then, you know, I've had a couple of letter wikis about things like, is social justice a religion? And so whenever, you know, once a week when somebody says, what are your views on social justice being a religion? I can just say, here's this letter wiki that's like my back and forth take on this. And I thought, I think that's a really valuable space. And they're doing a lot of work to try to

not have comment sections, have subscriptions to people, but not have liking. The kinds of mechanisms that feed the reward mechanism part of our brain, but don't actually encourage very positive, constructive

discourse. Wow, that's really interesting. I want to ask, so we, I think that the, and I said it earlier, and I think it's true that the sort of right-leaning people are the ones who really want the sort of unmitigated area where they can have any kind of free speech that they want. But we've seen time and time again that whenever they have these places they have to install rules it's very similar to when when they have guns and they talk about how great guns are and how

awesome guns are but so please don't bring them to my uh to my speech or please please don't bring them to the national convention please don't bring them it's very similar in the same sense is that they're all for unmoderated guns, except for when they're around me. And they're also the same way around speech. Did anybody, have you heard of anybody taking this and using this model anywhere else, especially on the right and saying, you know what, let's see if we can do an unmoderated free speech that is, that we can maybe see if we can get it to work other than 8chan?

Yeah, I was going to say 8chan. That was really where I was going. 8kun, I think, right, is the new one. Wait, now what? Yeah, it's not 8chan anymore. It's gone. Even more esoteric. You can't see it.

So, I mean, I think like the Heterodox Academy would claim that they are, I mean, they probably wouldn't admit that they are a conservative operation, but I would place them as a kind of conservative operation that has attempted to put forward a front of substantial discourse between disagreeing views. I don't know of, I don't know of anyone who is really genuinely actually committing to letting everyone have, I mean, like, what is that one, A gab or something that is just like a white, the white nationalist alternative to Facebook or whatever. Yeah. Or Twitter or whatever. And they also have a white nationalist version of

YouTube too, or whatever, where they just can post whatever they want or yeah. So. Yeah. But your general point stands that at the end of the day, everybody wants something excluded from their group. And I think the narrative has gotten very silly because, you know, liberals and lefties are more willing to say, here are the people that I want excluded from my group. I want the white nationalists out, you know, I want the transphobes out and such. Whereas I think the right is in this place now where they like to pretend that they are the people, they have taken the mantle of free speech away from the left who have become overtaken by the social justice warriors and so are no longer committed to their liberal values. And they like to play this narrative, you know, like right up until the moment where you try to have a functional debate with them and then it all collapses.

So I got one more direction to take this. I'm curious too. And it may go nowhere, but to what extent, if any, is this desire for unfettered free speech a gendered desire? Is this a primarily male-driven desire? Because when I look at 4chan, 8chan like that's dudes man that's not all

but it's i mean if you were to if you were to fucking take a poll it's not 51 like it is the general population of women right it's it's heavily male i would agree in much the same way that I would agree that like atheism and skepticism face the same, you know, gender problem. And I think we want, we don't want to say it's an essential feature of men or women that these are true, right? I think it's more that various kinds of social conditioning encourage, you know, rambunctious over-the-top debate, and like encourage men to sort of get into these debate fights in a way where I think women are more discouraged from doing so. And I also think that like these spaces become incredibly, incredibly toxic. And I think reasonably, I would say,

women are generally less interested in being in those incredibly toxic spaces. Whereas I think, you know- They're not safe. Yeah, they're not safe. And that like, there isn't a pleasure derived from, you know, getting in there and mixing it up. And it's not true 100%.

There were women on Monster Island and they would get in and they would mixing it up. And it's not true 100%. There were women on Monster Island and they would get in and they would mix it up too. But it was very much predominantly men. And I think it's because we need to work on better. It's because we need to work on better encouraging women

to express themselves and creating spaces for them to express themselves, including in sort of very rough and tumble kind of debate, because I think there can be value to full-on contact sparring as well as, you know, very light sparring. And I think, but I also think that like part of this is, it's valuable to recognize there's a corrective and move away from is it's valuable to recognize there's a corrective and move away from debate as the truest, highest form of engagement towards collaborative discussion, which you could say was traditionally classified as more of a feminine approach rather than the male, you know, combative debate style

approach. And again, these are culturally reified assumptions, not actual features of the genders themselves. And so, you know, I think it's a bit of both in the sense that we want to make more space for women to be allowed to express themselves in the full range of debate and discourse styles, while also encouraging men to find ways to be more collaborative in their engagement with others, especially ones who substantially disagree with them. And that's like, that's even like already assuming that we're dealing with people who are acting in good faith. There's no, I'm not, I'm not suggesting that you're going to walk over and do this with

the Ryan Balks of the world. The solution to them is stay the fuck away from them. Yeah. Cause it just, you know, like I'm just, I've seen that clarion call for free speech and it's male voices that are screaming for it, you know, and then they

devolve into the monster island problem more often than not, not exclusively. So I'm talking about preponderance, not exclusivity. So, and then they devolve into these spaces, which are genuinely unsafe spaces. And as men, we don't have to deal with our safety in the same way that women have to contend with our safety and to bleed over from the virtual world into the real world and how that

might compromise our physical safety. So it strikes, it strikes me as like such a fucking privileged place to even go to. It's a male, it's a specifically male privileged space to be like, yeah, I'd like to go and have this unfettered free speech zone where like, you know, because I don't have to deal with my safety in the same way. If I get doxxed, it's not the same thing as if my wife gets doxxed. Because somebody's not probably going to drive to my house. The likelihood of my physical safety being in actual jeopardy is just statistically vastly lower than her physical safety. And it occurs to me too, one of the reasons why these spaces might also exist is there's a pushback when someone points out privilege to someone else, they want to create a space where that they can gain that privilege back. And so they want to, they want to be in a space where they, they aren't questioned as much. They

aren't, you know, that, and they can, they can push back more in that space than they can in the real world. And so that might be the, one of the reasons why those monsters are even created. Yeah. And so I do agree with you about the about the danger thing. I think that's important. So in on the Monster Island list of rules, we had no threats of physical violence. And that one, that one came about specifically because someone was threatening me with physical violence. It was the person who I realized that later on was so toxic that I just wanted to leave Monster Island and block this person and be done with all of it. They were, you know, genuinely threatening to drive up and engage in physical violence with me.

Now, like, was I super concerned that this person was going to do this thing? No. And would I have been more concerned if I was a woman? Absolutely. Was I a little bit concerned? Yeah, a little bit. Because, you know, again, you don't know which person is Ryan Balk. Like, you don't know which one of them is the one who's like actually going to end up in the street. So, like, I do think that you're right, though. I think that these are places of privilege.

And this is a really hard thing for me as a white male philosopher. Like it costs me very little to do my job as a philosopher where I'm willing to throw down and debate. It pays very little too. Right, right, right. It's, you know. Sorry, I had to.

I had to because you're. Oh no, I mean, it's fair. That's why I started a cult. I like, that's where all the money is. So yeah, I think, you know, I think me as a philosopher, I really do love debating and I have frequently gotten feedback from folks on the left that like, I'm a little too gung-ho to be willing to debate anything, including things that they really feel like are not the things that should be debated. So I had a debate

with a guy over, you know, whether Jews actually have higher IQs or not because that's a common race myth that gets brought up by... If you won the debate, do you prove it right if you win the debate? Yeah, oh yeah, obviously. I questioned because of my superior Jewish IQ.

That's not even a question. I just wanted to check. Yeah, okay, makes sense. Of course. I felt like it's question. I just wanted to check. Yeah, okay. It makes sense. Of course. I felt like it's false. I just, I had to prove him wrong even though it's not false, right? That's amazing. Yeah.

So good. You're making an assumption with Mr. Rabinowitz there, Cecil. So good. So good. To be fair, I'm only half Jewish. So it's really,

my IQ maxes out at like 125 or so. So you have a couple podcasts. Tell our listeners about your podcast. Sure. I have Embrace the Void, which is a podcast, which is the huddling together podcast. It's the come together and cope with living in the worst possible timeline by

talking about philosophy and any other weird things that come along. It's mostly like a guest show. And I have just really wonderful folks come on and talk about their, their various and sundry interests. And then of course, as y'all are probably, y'all have both been on now at this point, right?

Philosophers in Space with Thomas Smith, where we take a piece of science fiction and a piece of philosophy and run at each other real fast and try to get them to fuse together into something that's compelling to everyone involved. And it's aable of the Talents, which if folks are not familiar, highly recommend reading that disturbing piece of time travel that predicted this year. I love Octavia Butler. Oh, do I? I'll look into it.

I'll look into it. That sounds great. It's dark. I gotta say, it's a great show. It's really fun to listen to. So check out Philosophers in Space. I wanna say too, also, I graduated with my undergrad in philosophy. I knew a lot of philosophers in college. You are

the nicest, coolest philosopher I've ever met in my entire life. I hated all of them. They were all assholes. You're the nicest guy. You're so nice and comparison. I don't know how philosophy created you, but I just wanted to say I appreciate that. And I'm sure other people who interact with you do too, because most of them are dicks. I just wanted to say that. I mean, the secret is, is that I'm really the deadest eyed sociopath of all of them. And this is just really, really good acting. Aaron, it was great having you on. Thank you so much for joining us and telling us about your awful creation. I hope you feel ashamed. I feel thank you so much for joining us and telling us about your awful creation.

I hope you feel ashamed. I feel nothing but guilt. Thanks for being on the show. 100% Jew guilt all the time. so because of such an amazing outpour to support we are back for another round of vulgarity for charity and welcome back to cognitive dissonance heath noah and their unicorn with sleep apnea carl just eli pretending to be someone from New York. Yeah, most of Eli's characters wouldn't let Eli into their park. Right? I wish he really was the flying unicorn pug thing.

That would make the way he drags his ass across my carpet so much less disturbing. All right. So the first one goes to Noah. the way he drags his ass across my carpet so much less disturbing. Alright, so the first one goes to Noah. Meow would like you to roast Chuck, the guy who stalked their wife. Oh my god, this guy sounds like some kind of nightmarish amalgamation of all the people from

Tiger King. Each of them donated their worst trait to some Frankensteinian monstrosity of limp dick desperation. And Chuck, I guess I know how you get there. You're so useless. You're so shitty that the only way you can experience what it is to know power is to scare somebody. But there's no reason to take it out on Meow's wife.

With teeth like yours, I'm sure smiling at children will get you your fix. Tom, how about a heartfelt roast of the human spine for Jeff? Yeah. I got this one. I know there's no God, no intelligent designer grand fucking plan

because for some fucking reason running right down the middle of us is a weak fuck piece of shit we call our spine oh hey let's take this thing that definitely absolutely did not evolve to be upright put a bunch of shitty gelatinous shock absorbers in it and then run all of the nerves of the entire body right down the center of that oh and if those shock absorbers ever get a little fucked up, they'll never heal or regrow. No. Instead,

they just smoosh out the sides and then press directly on your nerves. We are basically walking toothaches. That is what we are. Oh, what's that? You got a problem with your back? Oh, here's the solution. We can cut shit

out of it and make it weaker, or we can just glue it together so it never moves again. Those are our solutions because there is no solution. Because the spine is a fucking piece of garbage, and whoever designed this deserves the worst possible punishment. To have one of their own. To have a spine. All right, Cecil, you're up next.

Lisa wants a roast of Donnie Trump Jr.'s book, Triggered. Shouldn't your CV include a single book you read cover to cover before you write one? I mean, it feels like a prerequisite. Also, isn't it a little strange that you wrote an entire book on the pistol grip you use when you grab your daddy's cock. I mean, the reason why you're so triggered is that you're one of those aliens from heavy metal that sucks up cocaine

like an overclocked Dyson. I don't know if you remember those guys. Okay, Eli. Gavin would like you to insult their co-worker Todd. Oh, this is so good. So, Gavin sent us a picture of the exact moment Todd's adorable one-year-old

realized that half of her DNA was Todd's and she is mortified. I can't believe it. I mean, he looks like a reboot of The Shield set in an Aunt Annie's pretzel starring Michael Too Many Chicklets from The Vending Machine. So, I get it, little girl.

I get it. She looks like the shield. Nice. Another coworker. This time, Heath, Harvey wants you to roast Kevin. Okay. Yeah. Kevin, you're really fucking up the amazing, normally bald with a beard look.

You're fucking it up for everybody. And by the way, if you're trying to sell your house, do not show up at the closing. That black mold on your face is going to be a deal breaker. It's going to fall right through. Your head is going to get condemned by the housing department. It's not good. But as long as you're stuck with that thing, maybe try a comb up and over to cover the entire upper face. I don't know.

All right, yet another day at the office. A lot of mold in your face. Tom, Laura wants you to take it to their coworker't know. All right, yet another day at the office. You have a lot of mold in your face, but. Tom, Laura wants you to take it to their coworker, Jacob. All right, well, Jacob is a well, actually guy. Like, he's one of those guys that suffers from correctile dysfunction, right? But like worse, he's a bad tipper. It's 2020. How the fuck are you a bad tipper i mean all the rest of your bio that's

awful but being a bad tipper you're an under 10 percent bad tipper fuck you come the fuck on jacob that is part of the cost of going out when you don't tip people notice everyone notices the staff that you just shit on they notice because you just fucked them. And any woman you're with, she notices and she's not going to fuck you. But I will. Fuck you, Jacob. Fuck you now. Fuck you forever, you cheap ass piece of shit. If you

cannot afford just the tip, you can't go out. Stay home, you rotten fucking animal. You just see a guy like Jacob standing next to Lou Gehrig going, but you're not the luckiest man. You're not. Not to leave you out of this hot

coworker on coworker action, Noah, Leslie wants to hear you rip into Carolyn. Oh, this demonic scut is the principal at the school where Leslie works and won't let her tell her gay and trans students about programs like the Trevor Project or it gets better because

that would encourage their deviant lifestyle. What the fuck? Yeah, Carolyn thinks suicide is better than gay and enforces that. Oh, God. Fuck. And she looks like if there was a reverse Halloween for skeletons and one of them decided

to go as Karen. Heath, It looks like if there was a reverse Halloween for skeletons and one of them decided to go as Karen. Heath, dealer's choice, my man. Okay. Kate wants to hear you be mean to anything you want, but it has to be a concept. Go for it. Fantastic, Kate.

Good stuff. So, fuck postmodernist art. How dare you? If I had to guess, this is what I would have guessed you were going to go for. Yeah. And you know what? Fuck Eli for saying how dare you. And fuck post-modernism in general. Art or not.

You're bringing nothing to the table. You're improving nothing about our understanding of empirical reality. Congrats on taking cocaine for the first time and staying up late during college that one time.

Amazing. You're doing God's work. Is this art? No! Fuck you! It's not. It's not. If it's in the eye of the beholder, let's keep in mind that most people wouldn't put that shit on the fridge if their five-year-old made it. The beholders have spoken. You just suck at art.

Get good. I hate you. Make something I want to look at. I'll make you go on that tour of that museum again. I'll make you go on that tour again, Heath. I went into the fucking art museum one time and there's fucking literally a fucking pile of candy wrappers in the corner and they called that art.

And I was like, or maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was just a mistake. Get the fuck out of here. All right, Eli, speaking of concepts, how about a roast of murder hobos, this time for Nick? Oh, murder hobos.

They're the corner trappers of Dungeons & Dragons. They're the aim bots of tabletop role-playing, and the only thing more enjoyable than their crusade to kill every shopkeeper and NPC you present them with is killing every character they create with the level 20 guard I just made up who just rolled another critical success. Another critical success, yeah.

They take their guards super seriously here in Fuck Youville. All right, folks, we're starting our first This round is friends and family discounts, so roast them and let us know what they would get a discount for. I'm going to go first. Lee wants a group rate for Savannah,

Stephanie, and themselves. I think you'd get a discount rate for an eyeglass company that sells frames from this century. Like, genetics are amazing, though. Like, not only do you all hold your head up in the exact same lean on your hand position, you all also look like

1980s lesbians. So, that's kind of amazing. Noah, this one is X family, but it still counts. Roast Corey for M.

Jesus, so why do you keep giving me such horrible fucking people? This is the third antagonist from a Lifetime movie that you've given me

in a row. All right. So, first of all, Corey, you're a miserable piece of shit and you deserve to have some kind of flesh-eating fungal infection not yet known to science. Like, I want you to be sick in a way

that we have to name after you afterwards. And you get a discount for 50% off the stick I want to break off in your ass. I'm sorry, dude, but you just keep giving me such assholes. Hey, have you ever considered that maybe you're just getting ass. I'm sorry, but you just keep giving me such assholes. Hey, have you ever considered that maybe you're just getting assholes because the fucking, the pond is full of

assholes? No, let's just consider that. It could be. Tom, I know you love roasting family, so this time it's Mark for Michael. Alright, well, let's see. Mark would definitely get a discount for the Rudy Tutti Fresh and Fruity, or alternately, a nice moons over my hammy.

For sure. Or a subscription to TVGuy. Paper version. Do you need a discount to fall asleep in your chair after Wheel of Fortune? You can do that for free. Still lots of savings here, Mark. Maybe you should squirrel some of that away and buy a Sharpie

and color in some fucking hair, you prematurely elderly cue ball. His entire appearance looks like he's just trying to make it easier on some future cartoonist. He looks like a die hard Farside fan. Okay, Eli.

How about Carl the asshole for Kevin? Okay, again, Noah, I empathize here because I got like a fucking movie villain. And so I'm hoping Carl is going to get a discount at the prison canteen because of how badly a beating he takes on a daily basis. I mean, that's my wish for him.

And hey, if my wish doesn't come true, I would personally like to offer him a 100% discount from Eli's house of Nooses. Eli's House of Nooses, Carl. Come on down. Keith, this one is for Dennis. He wants a roast of his friend Ryan. They're both wearing Philadelphia Eagle jerseys in this picture, but you're not

supposed to roast the Eagles. And that's going to be tough. Okay. What discount does Ryan get? Alright, well, the photo we got shows Ryan at a soup kitchen for Eagles fans. So, he's already getting a discount on that meal.

And, I'm sure a discount on season tickets because of, you know, how the economy works. I'm thinking he could use a discount at Funko Pops

where he can buy an exact scale model of himself and his head-to-body ratio. All right. Next up, Jonathan for Brandon. Oh, Brandon gets a sweet 80% discount on facts required before drawing a conclusion. Or maybe he gets a bulk discount

on pushpins, yarn, and cranial foil. All right, now two pretty similar ones. First one goes to Eli. Ed, but his first name is actually Fuckin? Fuckwin? All right, now two pretty similar ones. First one goes to Eli. Ed, but his first name is actually Fuckin', Fuckwin? Fuckin'. For Brian. Fuckin' looks like he gets a wholesale subscription to Fucking Other People's Wives magazine.

This dude's been caught in between more sheets than bedbugs, which is weird because he's not good looking, but you can just you can just tell he's fucking other people's wives right he looks like if Bob Marley fucked Bob Ross and for reasons I can't explain

I still want to have sex with him in a Staples bathroom it's confusing it's confusing it's upsetting I'm going to close out this friends and family edition with Furcon for Kanan

hey Furcon how about a Pandora subscription so you don't have to listen to Passion Fruit by Drake for hours a day for eight straight months? You shouldn't be a biophysics PhD.

You should get into car repair if you like auto-tune that much. I'm not going to keep going here because you look like you crushed my head with your biceps. So we're going to move on here. That was Heath and Wright

just then. Heath and Wright just then. Heath and Wright. Right on that spightening round. Let's have Tom get us back into the swing of things by taking a swing at Roger and Jen Finger for Ollie. I don't even know where to begin fingering these two. I mean, that's actually not usually hard to figure out.

It's just that I'm looking at my hands and trying to decide which finger I'd rather boil or chop off than touch the finger family. Or their horrible fucking pet tarantula. Oh, my God. What? That is not a pet. That is a pest.

You missed an essential letter. Jesus, the thing is what monsters have nightmares of, you sick fucks. Who thinks, oh, you know what I need in my life? More spiders. No one says that because spiders are a horror and tarantulas are the king of horrible shit. Hey, you know what there are? There's

dogs and there's cats. They can love you and they can be loved. You can have them as pets and still you picked a spider the size of a goddamn hubcap. did you pick something that cannot love you because you know you are inherently unlovable you weird sick fucks or did you choose a spider as a pet because you like want to show off how wacky and non-traditional you are because that's working traditionally i am not repulsed beyond my ability

for empathy just by hearing about someone's fucking... So congratulations on making me yearn for the day that your spider kills you and legs its eggs

in your fucking skulls, you weirdos. Lost a big chunk of our audience just now, Tom. We definitely have spider weirdos. I'm just saying. Noah, how about a roast

of a whole school district, Knox County School District, for David? Oh, still a villain in a Lifetime movie, but fine. Okay. So as you recall, back in the days of yore when we were taking these donations, Knox County School District was in the process of making

it legal for students to opt out of classes like music and art so that they could go to churches instead so david asked us to roast the entire school board as well as the staff at the church of uh sturchy hills which is like 26 people but okay i'll try man hey the entire school board of knox county school district and staff of the church at sturchy hills great job lobbying Trump to end racial sensitivity training. Jesus, you look like an ad for a loosen the fuck up program called White Watchers. This one is for Terry, who doesn't like

how everyone is always bad-mouthing the Mercator projection. Yeah, right. No, totally. Fuck all those people. Africa should be 14 times too small. It's this PC bullshit and be 14 times too small. It's this PC bullshit and it's gone too far. It's about ethics in angle relationships for ocean navigators.

That's what's important. Now, in fairness to Terry, I will actually roast an anti-mercator advocate. He looks exactly like me. He's me. And he ate scotch over the sink for breakfast today. There you go. Clean. Breakfast champions.

All right, Cecil. How about you roast people who monopolize gym equipment for Ryan? I realize, your lordship bro Dudenstein,

that we are all here because of your whim. But you do not need to stake out the squat rack like you're claiming territories for your fiefdom. And you don't need 21 different dumbbells scattered around you like a medieval ruler getting buried with your favorite

servant. Other people work out here too, your highness, and no one wants to see a fucking selfie of you lifting things. Your fucking weekly battle with gravity doesn't need to be documented

through tapestries. No one fucking cares, man. Jesus, move it along. Okay, Eli, Emma wants private sperm donors for Ruth. How about you take a whack at this one?

All right, hey, weird, rapey, so-called sperm donors. Nobody wants your dick, man. Especially not lesbians, but like nobody wants your dick. Do you like offer to help people move and then just take what you want from the boxes marked kitchen? No. Then stop offering your dick like it's a free undercarriage treatment at a used car lot, you creepy fucko.

Now, I will say this. Upside to being this late on these roasts, we now know that Ruth did get pregnant and has just given birth to their baby. So congratulations to Ruth. And the little one. See? We're terrible at this.

All worthwhile. Yeah. If Noah had listened, i said we shouldn't have taken this many roasts but he insisted he insisted everybody i tell him here is one time that i think we all wanted yeah you drew the big straw this time people who tried to be part of the citation need a show in new york city for michael oh my God. Yes. And gladly. Hey, you know what people love? They love when they don't get to see or hear the performance they sought out and paid for,

but rather instead the random drunken mutterings of a crowd of people. So funny. They aren't being paid to be on stage. Yeah, no, that's, that's definitely the best part of any show. Like imagine how great it would have been to have the memory of that time that Nirvana played at the Metro in Chicago, and you were there

and it was so cool to listen to that guy next to you shout, Freebird, all night instead of the actual show. Oh, what's that? No, that's not the memory you would want? Oh, that's funny, unlike's not the memory you would want? Oh, that's funny. Unlike the fucking crowd. I guess

what I'm saying is your job is to laugh and buy Heath scotch. Know your fucking role. Absolutely. I liked it. You should shout more. No. No. Heath, you're up next. Jawbreaker 6 wants a roast

of disgraced Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher. Wow, okay. Yeah, that's the guy who stabbed a sedated 17-year-old prisoner to death and then took a picture holding the severed head by the hair and sent it around to his friends like he just won a fucking bowling trophy. Nice. Seems to imply beheading in there at some point too. I don't know. Best case scenario,

Gallagher has a beheading guy as an accomplice. Best case. This actually went to trial and the only conviction was for the lackluster artistic presentation of the photograph, according to the US government.

So, Eddie Gallagher, you're bad at your job. Learn a little mise-en-scene. Do better photography. Jesus Christ. And I definitely would not want any of his coworkers. He's still in the Navy. That's what's happened now. I would not want any of those coworkers to send me a trophy photo after they, you know, most dangerous gamed Eddie Gallagher. That would be illegal, assuming the photo wasn't very tasteful. According to the military, it doesn't sound like it'd be illegal at all. How about we give the next one, which is about reading and math, to the least qualified person on the panel, Eli.

Roast everyone who hasn't read Zero Sum Game for Neoni. All right. I actually now really want to read this book because it seems awesome. It's got a protagonist with Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock powers, a bad guy with purple David Tennant powers, and what's not to like about that? But no, you haven't read it, have you? Instead, you just scroll through the news for the 800th time. He's still alive. He's still alive. He's still alive.

Someone will text you when he's dead. It's $9 on Kindle, people. $9. Come on. All right, Noah, use your epic rage to rip into Boaty McBoatface for Roxanne. Oh, I was so worried about this because for a second I thought I was going to have to find a way to make fun of the single greatest boat name ever ignored by a

purported democracy. But no, no, that's the name of her cat. And yes, her cat has a tiny little Hitler mustache just to make it easier on me. So listen up, Nazi cat. Nobody's buying this. I'm just a big fan of precision marching bullshit, okay?

We're not feline people on both sides. And it's still anti-Semitic if you're comparing the rats to Jews. It doesn't matter which direction you go. Okay, we're ready for the next... This round is politicians. How about you guys tell me what it is you would donate to their campaign? Thanks to Richard Douglas, Michael Shara, Ashley, Eric, Vincent, Brendan, and Eric. First up, Beto or Beto.

Beto. Okay. Beto, I am going to donate to you a platform. Okay, Beto, I am going to donate to you a platform. You're going to need one both to stand on if you want to be noticed and also to run on because I can't remember anything about anything you said anymore. Your entire claim to fame was that you almost but didn't quite beat Ted Cruz in a personality contest. Yes.

I'm going to do Rick Perry. Doesn't the scarecrow get a diploma at the end? I don't. Maybe one that has something to do with energy other than like fucking lion tamer or whatever you graduated in. But I would definitely withhold that donation until he ran a very public sham investigation

on the Bidens. Definitely. Don't worry. Don't worry. Representative Tom McClintock. Oh, yeah. A fucking global warming, denialist congressman from Northern California. That is about to get COVID.

Yeah. Who has come out against who has come out against and this is true, animal rights. What's against those? I think I would donate a picture of the air in his district.

And if they let me get close enough, I'd donate a boot as well. So I'd donate a boot. Alright, I'm going to do Aram Emanuel, Chicago's ex-mayor. I'd give him shoe lifts

made from compressed school vouchers. I think that would be good. Either that or a better handhold on Obama's coattails. I think that would work, too. West Virginia Governor

Jim Justice. Okay. I was going to donate chins, but he is good there. He is good. Also can't do money because he's literally

the richest person in his state, which, let me just say, always what you want in a public servant. However, based on how their COVID coding program is going, I'm going to donate some orange markers

because apparently they were out of those until last week. So they just didn't bother coding in all the sick people as a result. Yeah. Get around to it. Nice. All right.

Tim, I'm in. Fuck this guy. Tim, I'm going to donate to you a suit. Wear it to your funeral after you kill yourself. All right. Tough but fair. All right. Last one. Matt, Jesus Christ. All right. Tough but fair. Tough but fair. Last one.

Matt Gaetz. Okay. I donate a designated driver. Too late. Okay. Now, shifting gears, but not moving too far away, let's shift to a couple of people on the periphery of politics. Eli, roast conservative Charlie Kirk of Toilet Paper USA.

Oh, thank you, Cecil. Charlie Kirk looks like the Lemonhead mascot got radicalized by having to share a shelf with sugar babies. I don't even know what that means. I don't even know what that means. What the fuck? What is that? that's so good

he looks like he went to an all boys will be boys school but best of all Charlie Kirk will have at least another half century of life to see how wrong he is and how much everyone hates him it's gonna be pretty great

and Heath you did so well on that last one how will we get some more how wrong he is and how much everyone hates him. It's going to be pretty great. Yeah. And he, he did so well on that last one. Uh, how will we get some more, uh, Matt Gates love, uh, this time for paints,

a coal of voters who elected him. Oh, okay. Yeah. You live in Pensacola, Florida. That's where you live. Southern Alabama was like,

gross, gross. No, thank you. Go ahead and gerrymander. You write the fuck back into Florida, Southern Alabama was like, gross, gross, no thank you. No, thank you. And we're going to go ahead and gerrymander you right the fuck back into Florida, even though that makes no sense on the map. You people should leave. It's embarrassing.

Your state bird is a Chick-fil-A sandwich. You roast yourself every day by not moving. State bird is a Chick-fil-A sandwich. day by not moving. Last one's the night here. One for each of us. Noah, Bryce would like you to roast Apostle Boyd K. Packer. Y'all know Bryce, right?

I swear, when he chants this little Aria Stark list before bed every night, it's got to sound so aggressively Caucasian, right? He's always hating on some Boyd or some Hiram or an Orson or something. But yes, Apostle Boyd Kay Packer looks exactly like you pictured him looking when I said that name. He's old. He's a fat white guy with peculiarly weird low

earlobes and a face that looks like front butt. He's also a fucking boss level sexist, but in both directions somehow. He hates women's rights and he's obsessed with little boys' testicles. So he's like the personified essence of Mormonism.

Okay, this is a little bit of a shift for you, Tom, instead of just raising a person. This is a church, St. Francis Cabrini Church in Allen Park, Michigan. Yeah. Look, I wasn't raised Catholic. I didn't grow up any of that like crazy Catholic guilt,

but I mean, just the fact that there's a specific kind of a thing called Catholic guilt kind of says everything, doesn't it? I mean, like guilt is shitty enough, right? But like when you have to qualify it as especially its own kind of shitty thing, that makes you the shitty thing expert now. I have no idea how an organization can saddle people with so much guilt while simultaneously running the world's largest child sexual abuse network in the world. And yet they still manage it.

But here's your out. Look, when your dad says, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. He lays out a guilt trip that works because you don't want to disappoint your dad. But the Catholic Church? Yeah, I'm pretty okay disappointing a bunch of gilded old kiddie dinners in fact like i prefer if they're disappointed in me so fuck saint francis cabrini fuck all the saint and sinner sanctimonious nonsense it's all made up it's meant to take your money and distract you from the horrors of the world's largest pedo ring. Amen, brother.

All right, Eli, why don't you finish up with a Dolan H. Oaks for Jeff? Ah, another Mormon. Yes, Dolan looks like he lost the audition for Sam the Eagle because he spent his callback explaining which of the Muppets have souls and which of them were dyed their color for their wickedness by South American Jesus. All right. Last one.

Last one for you, Heath. Lee wants you to roast the president of their local coin club. Give us that hotline coin drama, Heath. I think Cecil just did it for me. Apparently, Tom has a giant collection of golden coins because he thinks the apocalypse is coming

and the money system is going to collapse. So there's going to be like drought and starvation, but he's going to be rich after haggling with warlords about how this weedy penny is actually way more valuable than it's worth. Why do people think that's going to happen? Why would you want gold in this huge meltdown?

There's a handful of loose gold. Can I get some water and food? No, you can't. I'm keeping all my water and food. What the fuck am I going to do with gold? Maybe you want really good headphones that sound extra good. And I'm going to finish this one out with a roast for Eric of Chick-fil-A. That closed on Sunday shit

is a fucking ploy to create false scarcity, not to be wholesome. And I know that they said twice that they stopped giving to anti-LGBT charities. They made a big public display about it, but they still fucking donated to them. And then when they were caught, they're like, oh no, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it.

So pardon me if I don't think a fucking chicken sandwich is a good trade for conversion. If you want to go to the annual, I was a Nazi last year, but now I'm not because you caught me pancake breakfast. No one's going to fucking stop you, man.

But they should sure as shit fucking judge you for it. Amen, sir. All right, gents. Thank you so much for joining us this time. Anytime, sir. So we want to thank our patrons. Of course, we want to thank all our patrons. We want to thank all our patrons we want to thank our newest patrons which are just a ton of them because we missed a couple of weeks

hail satan fuck i did that wrong terrible terrible so cheesy uh martin austin selene jeffrey matthew sawyer nathan john i should be able to run over as many kids as I want. Okay. This is creepy. All right. Banana and Orange were convicted, but their case is on appeal. Dun, dun, dun.

Shane, Noctefla, Root Creeper. I don't know how to say that. Eli is my best friend. God damn it, he made me say it. Emeritus, Danielle, T-Row, Mark, reformed baby hater. I'm not a reformed baby. I still hate babies.

John, and the people who upped their pledges. No job, no money, but I still support the show. The rest of you have to. And Eric, thank you so much for your generous donations. We really do truly appreciate all of your donations to Glory Hole Studios.

You guys are the reason that Ian is our employee because without you, we would not have an employee to help us with the streams and with doing stuff. And if you guys haven't caught the streams yet, we are having a lot of fun on these streams. They're great. And in fact, this week, we covered a lot of the news that we missed over the last couple weeks.

So if you're interested in us covering news that we missed because we were doing deep dives, you check the stream out this week at YouTube or Twitch or wherever it is. Facebook has it. Go check it out. It's like 50 minutes of us talking about news that we missed and penis pumps. How can you go wrong with that? Penis pumps should never fail you. Head over to the stream.

Right? Yeah, head over to the stream. Hang it out. Trump should never fail you. Head over to the stream. Right? Yeah, head over to the stream. Hang it out.

We got a message from John who just became a patron after a long time of being unemployed and he just wanted to send us a message. And we want to thank you so much for joining up and being a patron, John. Very nice of you. We got a ton of messages about our forensics episode.

Tons of people had no idea about such. There were people sending us messages saying they were mad about it. They were super mad. They never had no idea about such. There were people sending us messages saying they were mad about it. They were super mad. They never had no idea that something like this was even happening. One person on Twitter sent us a message and said that they were mad. And I thought that they were talking about a report. And so I responded with, well, if we got anything wrong, let me know. And they said, no, no, I'm mad about what you're talking about. And I said, yeah, I get it. So it's easy to get mad about it. Something that Tom and I didn't know about. I know we got a couple of messages from people who essentially

said, Hey, look, this is, this has been out for 10 years. And Tom and I both agree that it has been out for a long time, but we had no idea how deep it ran because we're not in that industry. And so we thought it would be interesting for you guys. And it seems like it was a lot of people really responded to this and let us know how much and how shocked they were. We got a message about judges from Jeff and how judges look at some type of disorders from children and treat it as child abuse, Tom. This is distressing. This is actually a scholarly paper talking about metabolic bone disease in infants causing unexplained fractures. That being an explanation rather than the explanation being child abuse.

And I actually just listened to an interesting podcast the other day about shaken baby syndrome. And it's very similar in that stories are being told. A courtroom is a storytelling time. And stories are being told and people are going to jail, not based off of good scientific evidence, but based on what people already believe or think they know about behavior and other people and what seems most likely. It's really distressing how little of this comes back to evidence and how little of this comes back to science. People are still going to jail. I know that we got emails from people saying, oh, this has been out for 10 years.

Yeah. But, you know, people are still going to jail. Not everybody knows. Right. So many lawyers don't know. So many judges don't know. And so many jurors don't know. Yep.

Yep. Got a message from Dean and Dean said that their roommate surprised them with an early birthday gift in the form of a Cogdiss mug and shirt. That's very sweet. You can get your own Cogdiss mugs and shirts, by the way, to surprise your roommates

or your loved ones or yourself. You probably can't surprise yourself to any much. You can go to DissonancePod.com and there's a link

to our merch right there. Our merch is pretty great and the stuff we make is pretty quality. It's made here, right here in Chicago by people who make it by hand. So if you want to order merch from us, you can go to dissonancepod.com. And there's

a couple of different types of shirts there for your buying pleasure. We also got a couple of messages about fingerprints. We didn't realize how widespread it was, especially in Europe. We realized that this episode specifically was a, the forensics episode was specifically a very American centric episode. And so what's interesting is that a bunch of people said, Hey, just so you know, in other countries, they, they, they fingerprint people quite a bit. And so I guess there's not as many miracle people over there that would be upset by that. So it was funny. Cecil, as an aside, when we were on vacation in Belize, one of the things that we learned was that Belize still, it's so poor and they have such a small amount of infrastructure that their police still don't have access to fingerprinting kits.

Wow. They just don't even have that yet. Wow. Basically, if something bad happens, you're like, okay, raise your hand if you did it. No. All right. Nobody? no takers all right yeah okay yeah jay sends in a message and he says just so you know i wanted to let you guys know and

this is something that tom and i had talked about i think off air but we never said on air and this was when you when trump was sick and people were saying i wish he were dead or he wish i wish he would die jay points out that wishing in someone's direction does not make it so and literally has no effect on the outcome of anything. And so the idea that people are upset that someone is wishing about something is stupid and

I have to hard agree with that. Wishing doesn't make anything happen because I wished real hard and he's still alive. Yeah. If wishing made things so, the world we live in, I don't know I wished real hard and he's still alive. If wishing made things so, the world we live in,

I don't know if it'd be better or worse, but it would be a lot different. It'd be a lot different, that's for sure. We got a message. This is from Jeff. He wanted us to say, he wanted us to give a shout out to Sarah Rose and we want to give a shout out to her. We know that you're going through a tough time,

a difficult time with some surgery. And so we wanted to send you a message and say, we hope you get through it. We hope you feel better and we hope you heal very, very quickly, Sarah Rose. Get on the mend as quick as you can. Both Tom and I know how bad it is to have a back issue. And so best of luck to you. Yep. Yep. Feel better. Got a message. This is from Dustin. And Dustin said, hey, I was listening to Tom talking about something a couple months ago,

talking about how you should only be proud of things that you've actually accomplished rather than things that are sort of given to you. And they said, well, one sticking point is, how does this relate to black pride or gay pride? And I want to say, how does this relate? Is that the reason why people say black pride or gay pride, and we all agree that those are things that they did not choose. The reason why people are proud of it is not for the thing itself, but for the struggle that they have to go through in order to live their everyday life.

And so that's, they're not proud of, they're proud of who they are because of their hardship. Yeah, I think it's a shorthand. It's just, it's a shorthand for everything that goes along with being part of that group and still having to live within, as a minority, as a disenfranchised person within a society that doesn't value and treat you well. So we want to thank, of course,

we want to thank Aaron Rubinowitz from Embrace the Void podcast and Philosophers in Space for joining us to talk about his project, Monster Island. Really funny guy. I hope to have him on again. You know, it's so rare

we get a chance to talk to him, but every time I do, I really enjoy it. He's a very smart man and very fun to talk to. So I hope we get a chance to do that soon. Make another Monster Island,

Aaron, and come back. Great conversation. Yeah, really was. And I hope we get a chance to do that soon. Make another Monster Island, Aaron, and come back. Great conversation. Yeah, it really was. And I also, of course, want to thank Eli, Noah, and Heath for coming on to do their The Vulgarity for Charity. We want to thank them, of course. You can check out all their shows. They did The Scathing Atheist,

Godawful Movies, Skeptocrat, D&D Minus, and, of course, Citation Needed with us. You can check out all their shows online and they do the quality work. Good guys and very funny guys. So check out their stuff. That is going to wrap it up for this week.

Be sure to join us next week for our live stream and be sure to tune in. Election night. Put it aside, guys. Election night coverage. We're going to be going live, covering the election for several hours. Tom's going to be in studio. We're going to have dinner together. We're going to hang out. It's going to

be super amazing. You're going to want to hang out with us. First time reunited. It feels so good. It's going to be amazing. But here's the deal. We're also going to have other guests on. Right now in the queue, we have Heath Enright, who's going to join us for a couple hours. We're going to have Dan and Jordan from Knowledge Fight. They're going to be joining us. We're looking to get a couple other people to join us that evening via Skype to chit-chat with us throughout the night. So you're not going to want to miss it. Make us your election night coverage. Come join us.

We'll be on all the different streaming platforms. We'll be streaming live, and we're going to be interacting with chat the whole night. So come check us out and hang out with us. And check out our regular live streams Thursday night, 9 p.m. Central. That's going to wrap it up for this week. We're going to leave you like we always do with the Skeptic's Creed. Credulity is not a virtue. It's fortune cookie cutter, mommy issue, hypno-Babylon bullshit.

Couched in scientician, double bubble, toil and trouble, pseudo-quasi-alternative, acupunctuating,urized stereogram pyramidal free energy healing water downward spiral brain dead pan

sales pitch late night info docutainment Leo Pisces cancer cures detox reflex

foot massage death in towers tarot cards psychic healing crystal balls Bigfoot Yeti aliens

churches mosques and synagogues, temples, dragons, giant worms, Atlantis, dolphins, truthers, birthers, witches, wizards, vaccine nuts, shaman healers, evangelists, conspiracy, doublespeak, stigmata, nonsense. Expose your sides. Thrust your hands. Bloody.

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