Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 623: SB8 Discussion with an Abortion Provider

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

Show Notes   EMBRACE THE VOID       JP cries again   * they asked me to do TWO things! what do you think I'm made of thoughts?

This episode of Cognitive Dissonance is brought to you by our patrons. You fucking rock. Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. recording live from glory hole studios in chicago and beyond this is cognitive dissonance every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way we bring critical thinking skepticism and irreverence to any topic that makes the news makes it big or makes us mad it's skeptical it's political and there is no welcome at this is episode 623 and when i say beyond tom means trigger warning when he says beyond because they're going to be talking about birth anomalies abortion and rape so trigger warning for all i mean beyond beyond beyond because we are joined today by an abortion

provider dr jessica from te Texas. Welcome to the show. Hey there. Hey, hey. Yeah, I'll take a- Take a snort. Pour me a drink, Cecil. I'm going to pour you a drink. Jessica. I don't know how the day is going to go.

Jessica, we want to thank you for coming on the show today. We've always, we've actually, since this show started, no, we just said the number, 623. 623. Since the show started, we've wanted to talk to somebody who has credentials in this field and who has done this sort of work. Because what we deal with on this show is a lot of the right-wing straw men about abortion. So we're hoping that we can talk to you and clear up a lot of this terrible, terrible misinformation that many conservatives seem to spread. It got to be where I almost considered impregnating my wife just to go in and get an abortion and then

chat the lady up a little, but I thought maybe that had come off weird. I don't want to be that guy. Yeah. So we want to thank you for coming on. So we want to talk about SB8 today, which is at this point, I think

over six months, it's been in effect. Can you tell us what it's like to be someone who helps women in that state with this law into effect? Yeah, and thanks so much for having me. Yeah, so I am a family medicine physician and then I specialize in abortions.

I'm an abortion provider and I'm trained up to 18 weeks. So before September 1st, before this went into effect, um, that's what I had been doing. Um, and then once September 1st hit literally overnight, that was completely changed. And so we've been living in just sort of this hell nightmare since September. Um, I just refer to like, you know, before I tell my patients there were the before times and now we're in the now times, I guess. I'm so scared. That phrase is just, it keeps coming up the before times and I miss the before times so much. So much. Yeah. So, so basically the,

the terrible thing about the SB8 legislation when it passed is that they set it up so that they essentially made themselves proof for a while against the courts getting involved, because it's not technically a criminal law. It's a civil law and, or penalties, you know, it's not criminal penalties, it's civil penalties. It turned it into a vigilante situation where, you know, basically anyone can sue you for, well, they can't sue the patient themselves for having the abortion, but they can sue the clinic, the doctor, anyone involved in helping the patient get the abortion, like even their family members if they drove them to the clinic.

So there's like not a lot of exceptions to that rule. And so it's a vigilante thing. And it was set at for any abortions that happen once there is what they say, once there is a fetal heartbeat, which is just right off the bat is like a clear, clear, it's an obvious sign to me that they don't know what they're talking about because we're talking about right around six weeks of pregnancy, around four weeks post-conception. Yes, sometimes once you hit six weeks, that's right about the time where there's something called a fetal pull. And then there's this flicker on the screen and it's electrical activity from

the cells that are going to make up the heart. And so all the cells start to have electrical activity and these muscles starts to quiver. And that's what we see now. Once that happens to them, that's it. It's life. It's now more important than you. And that's it. Um, now you have to go out of state,

um, to have an abortion. And we don't care if you were raped. We don't care if, um, well, we just don't care. We don't care if you're,

you know, in your second trimester and you found out that there's some terrible anomaly. Um, so it's my job then to just be the one that stands there and denies patients their rights. So pretty much every day is really, really fucked up. All right. So I've got, I've got a couple of quick questions for you. So I guess I didn't realize, I thought it was a six week, but is it, is it based on, it's based on a heartbeat or is it based on a timeline? So it is technically based on the heartbeat. So can I ask a dumb question as a guy who doesn't know anything? So, yeah. I mean, is a heartbeat a medically

defined scientific term? Like, can you have a heartbeat without a heart? So like at six weeks, you don't have a heart, right? Like I don't, I don't want to pick a knit, but I guess like, can we pick a knit here? Right. Like it's the beginning like cells, I guess that's like, what are we going to like, then we'll have to go in court and argue like, is that a definable scientific term? I mean, that's not what I use. I would say electrical activity at that point. Right. And that's, I guess, why I'm seizing on that term, right? It's like they're saying, and you've seen these heartbeat bills in so many other places. And I guess like the pedantic part of me just wonders, I mean-

Is there a scientific leg to stand on, right? Yeah. You don't have a heart yet at that point, right? The heart has not physically formed. A heartbeat is not something that's actually been defined. So could you not, I mean, granted, I guess you take this to, you know, judges in Texas. So I guess that's the problem, right? Exactly. You're relying on. I talked myself right the fuck out of it, Jeff. Nope, that's a waste of money. I'm sorry. I'm too stupid for words. I talked myself right out of it because it, Jeff. You're just like, nope, that's a waste of money. I'm sorry. I'm too stupid for words. I talked myself right out of it because you're just, immediately it's like, well, you have to have a heartbeat.

It's like, well, you don't have a heart. So there you go. Game, set, match. It's like judges in Texas. Okay, I still lose. Don't be confused. There's literally like 50 things about this law that don't even make sense regardless of abortion.

Like it doesn't even make sense that like, there's a part of it that says, if we one day find out that this law was unconstitutional, but you did something during it, that still counts. Or like something ridiculous. What? I remember reading that. That's fucking insane.

You're not supposed to like, we can't make sense of this because it doesn't make any sense. Maybe you don't know this. Maybe this would take some sort of research. I don't know. But like, what else, what is happening at six weeks? Like, what is there at six weeks?

So yeah, that is a little bit like, we would need to ask an embryologist, basically. I see. Okay. But essentially, like, it's, we refer to it as the fetal pole. So it's like, it's about, let me think, it's right around three to five millimeters in length and

so it's really hard to see on the ultrasound and it has like this flicker and that's the electrical the signs of the first electrical activity so then like you know microscopically that's the part where you know we'd have to ask them but it is not a fully formed heart it does not look like ours at all i mean there's no there's no way so like SB8, if we were going to call it something, it's almost like SB8, fucking try us. Right? Because it's like they're daring someone to, they've written this crazy law with all these insane provisions,

most of which are patently nonsensical from a logical or scientific or even legal standpoint, but it's like, all right, try me, and you risk potential personal financial ruin. In the clinic, yeah. This law is made to really essentially go after the abortion providers, right? This law is made to sort of bankrupt your work because they can't

sue the person getting the abortion, but they can certainly sue anyone else involved. So as you said, they could certainly sue the provider and then they could sue even, I've even heard people argue that it's possible they could even sue the Uber driver who drove them to the clinic. Yeah, that's correct.

And you know, it turns out even the Uber and Lyfts had to come out with a statement like anyone that's sued will take care of your well, like what? What? Where are we? What? What is happening? So I know I know that a lot of abortions take place non-surgically now. Right. That's that's accurate. You can take pills up into a certain point in a in a pregnancy to abort the pregnancy. Yes. Now, you can't deliver those pills, but they can still be. I know there's some laws in some states where they don't even want them to be mailed from out of state. Is Texas,

is Texas that dystopian hellscape as well? That's all shut down. You're not, you can't mail anything in, you can't order it. I have no idea how they regulate these things, but that's what they say. Yeah. Cause otherwise you just do do telehealth with some provider in a state with rational laws, right? And then they would just order you pills and they'd just ship them to you. But in Texas, you can't get abortion medications

shipped to you either, right? Correct. Fuck. Because then the mailman would get sued. The fucking postal carrier would get sued. Right, yep. Do they make the women wear the red dresses with the bonnets there? Is that required? Like the Gilead?

Let's just go all the way. I mean, it feels like we are anymore. Fucking hell. It's insane. You know, you hear people talk about this law. What are the on the ground effects here? Let me get, have you seen like a major, like has there been a lot less abortions because of it? That sort of thing?

Like, is that, is it, is it doing the thing that they wanted it to do? No. And this is actually, this is actually really surprising to me and interesting. So I wasn't really expecting this. So starting September 1st and it's really maintained through the entire time, what happened was initially the number of people I saw a day went down because I didn't have everybody who was all the way up to 18 weeks that I was seeing anymore. And also people thought maybe all of it was illegal. They didn't know if we were still open. There was a lot of confusion. But then pretty quickly, I started to get as busy as I was before. And I'm sort of following all the same patterns as before and keeping up with

how many I'm actually performing. And I started to pay attention and we noticed some of our patients would disclose to us after their abortion, they would actually tell someone in the clinic, either an assistant, it happened to me one time, it happened to a nurse. They would say, you know, I actually don't know if I really wanted an abortion, but I knew that going for, I needed to have that option. And I would rather regret an abortion than regret having a child. And I was like, uh, yeah, because who wants to sit around and regret the child that you just first, like what the hell? So it's actually changing who has abortions. It's pushing people into that position and it's making them choose and they're choosing this over

something that they might not. You might regret it. Why wouldn't you? That makes sense, right? We're in this terrible position where they find out they're pregnant and they literally have the people who can find out the very earliest they have roughly a week to be on it to get in and be done with

their abortion. It's 100%. That's a backfire. Right. Oh yeah. No, they don't even, they don't even realize this is happening. It's a complete backfire. And it's so disturbing because you want like you're, we're all there for the patients and like, you got to do what you got to do. And yeah, we might've done the same in that situation because Jesus, is that where we're at? Like, that's where we're at. in that situation because Jesus, is that where we're at? Like that's where we're at. So I got, I have more dumb logistical questions, I guess. Like, are you required to verify that there's a heartbeat or not? And then if you, if you find one, you're not allowed to move forward

because like, could somebody come to you? I guess, how do you identify six versus seven weeks? Do you know what I mean? Like a patient could lie or be mistaken or. Well, this actually, so we do it on, I do an ultrasound. So they come in to see me and I do an ultrasound and I measure the pregnancy. Now, this is actually a really good point because when people hear that it's the six week ban, I think we all think in our minds like, oh, well that means you have six weeks to decide from like getting pregnant. You probably find out like, I don't know, a couple of weeks since you got like a month. No, like that six weeks of pregnancy means four weeks post conception. So post the time you had sex or, you know, whatever happened. So four weeks past that point is, is your, is the limit. That's when a fetus, like the little tiny fetal pole, will show up.

And there will be that flicker on the screen that they see as a heartbeat. So four weeks. But we don't know. We can't detect pregnancy for at least one and a half to two weeks post-conception. Now we're two weeks post-conception. Oh, we can detect it. But the state of Texas also passed a law that started in November that clarified that I had to find on the ultrasound, a tiny gestational sack prior to

moving forward with the abortion. Oh my God. So instead of just. So they narrow you on both sides. They narrowed it on both sides down to around five days. What? Yes. People don't realize it's coming at... So what I used to do... So this is a little hard to explain. Again, this is a lot of medical stuff, right? But the uterine lining, it gets very thick at the beginning of pregnancy,

even before you can see a tiny little gestational sac, which is the first thing that shows up before a fetus before anything else. So the lining gets thick. So I will look at an ultrasound and say, Hey, Oh yeah, it looks like you're pregnant. There's some thickening of your lining. We'll do a pregnancy test. That'll confirm it. Now, some countries and actually some States, it's really normal. And we used to do it where you would just say, okay, well now we know you're pregnant. So here are some pills you'll take these and it will bring on your period. So nothing ever formed at all. And if you are so-called pro-life, so-called, then that is like, you're perfect. That's still your best case scenario, right? Nothing.

SAC is even for, no, no, no. The state says, no, we want you to wait. So they don't give a shit about life. It's not about that. It's about controlling us. And they've literally pushed us down to, it's literally from the time I can see it on an ultrasound to the time that there is a flicker on the screen is roughly like six-ish days. Holy shit. That is even worse than I thought. And I thought it was really bad.

I didn't realize that they had narrowed the window on both sides of the continuum, the timescale there. That's just atrocious. Can you detect, at six weeks, is there any way to detect some of the things that might make someone want to consider abortion, might be wrong with the child? Is there a lot of things that you can detect at that age?

Like multiple heads, that kind of thing. Oh, that's like... Jesus. Yeah. Wings. That's a whole other like... multiple heads. Yeah. Oh, that's like wings. That's a whole other, like, so I feel like we do need to get into this and we might as well do it now.

Um, that what we're, what we're in this situation of, so I had someone who came to see me right before the law went into effect and I was able to see her, thank God before the law went into effect. And she was, I don't know, she was right around 13

weeks of pregnancy and had just found out a few days prior. Okay. It turns out that there's this terrible anomaly where there's pretty much no head, right? Like the brain's not there. There's like, there's not a lot there. It gets gross to describe it any more than that, but it's, it's not okay. It's not a situation that's okay. And she came to see me and she told me, well, I couldn't go through with, I had this happen with my first pregnancy and I couldn't go through with the abortion. So I delivered the baby and I watched it die. And I can't go through that again. And it's like literally the most horrific thing you can fucking imagine. And she was sobbing. She was like, please, I have to have an abortion. Now, like she didn't want an abortion, but it was like, that is so much better than watching your baby die in your arms. Like what, you know, now while it's at 13 weeks, when it's

a small fetus, like let's take care of things, you know, and it's so much safer than two for, for her as the patient, like it, yeah, it was, that's a no brainer. So now I know all those patients like her are just like, if they don't have the money, like it, yeah, it was, that's a no brainer. So now I know all those patients like her are just like, if they don't have the money to fly out of state, they're just out there. And in months from now, even if the law were to reverse at some point soon, months from now, there are going to be people who are going to go through that horrific experience. Cause I used to see patients with like, you know, pretty significant anomalies, like, you know, maybe one or two times a week. It's not, it's, you know, it's rare, but like that's, they come to me if they don't want to have to go through all that.

If you're living in a state that's not yet a dystopian hellscape, can you provide an abortion? And can I provide an abortion? Well, I can't because I got a degree in English literature. That's a bad call for me. But can somebody, can a doctor in Illinois perform, can somebody leave Texas and come to Illinois and get an abortion? Or will they get sued when they come back to Texas? In other words, like, do they have to leave forever? Or does that state?

Or does that have to, like, leave in secret? Right, like, can i buy an airplane ticket i don't want to be an asshole but like can i can i sue the guy who sold someone an airplane ticket because they used that ticket to leave the state no to get an abortion in a different state no actually so this is that's good you brought this up because i think it's missouri and this is where i can't remember the name of the law but there's one they're currently currently discussing in Missouri that would make it illegal for you to leave and get an abortion anywhere else. Yikes. Holy shit, the bed.

Yikes. God damn. Yeah. So Texas law is not currently like that, but Missouri is over there giving us ideas. So it wouldn't surprise me. Oh, because they will. If it works in Missouri, they will. Holy shit.

That's a horror. Because right now, the whole thing I'm thinking is we've got to figure out a way to raise money. Yeah. If it works in Missouri, they will. Holy shit. That's a horror. That is, because like right now, the whole thing I'm thinking is like, we've got to rate, we got to figure out a way to raise money. Yeah. I was just going to ask you.

To get women out of fucking Texas. Literally going to ask you, one of my questions I was going to ask you was like, what's a charity that we can, because we're coming up on our, on our 666 episode. And we were planning on for that episode, trying to raise a bunch of money for abortion providers and abortion rights. What's the best way?

You're in this. What's the best way for us to donate? Where is the best place to put that money? The one place I would get in touch with that I would put it towards is called Lilith Fund. It's L-I-L-I- Well, that's different than the fair, right? Yeah.

Okay. I just checked. Double checking. I don't That's different than the fair. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just check a double checking. I don't know. Sarah McLaughlin. I don't know if the fucking Dixie chicks are out there doing their thing, you know, are a little fun. So this is a central Texas like organization that they literally are now

they've switched what they did. They used to fund patients to come to our clinics, but they switched what they do and they are not funding that at all they've switched over so they're funding all the patients that need to get out of state and they're actually will pay for flight if they need it or gas uh they'll pay for their food if they like can't afford that while they're gone because we've got some people in some desperate situations so yeah they're they're Can't we just like airdrop the abortion medication? Drop the Plan B. Yeah, right.

But like the fucking MyPillow guy with his Plan B 52 bomb rally. Just drop it right in there. God damn. People fucking mail MDMA to each other. Like let's mail, you know what I mean? Like let's fucking mail some abortion pills out. Jesus. Right.

Get some abortion pills sniffing dogs. Right. Get some abortion pills, sniffing dogs and shit. I'm not even kidding. Like we're going to have that stuff. Because if they're going to regulate moving that stuff through the USPS, they're going to have to have some way of making sure.

Because like if I knew somebody in Texas that couldn't, if I had family, I'd go to my doctor and I finagle that shit. You know you would too. And then you would just mail it to your friend or family.

Sure, sure. You know, like you 100% would do. God, you would just mail it to your friend or family. Sure, sure. You know, like you 100% would do. God, what a nightmare. Do you under, is it on your radar what's maybe going to happen this summer? No. No, is it bad? I feel like it's going to be bad.

Oh, it's worse. I'm sorry. Why is it worse? Okay. I'm sorry. If these are the new before times, I don't. I know, right? Like this is the before times for that.

What is happening? Are you, are you, am I going to be reminiscing about now? If I swear to God, if I'm going to reminisce someday about today, I'm right. I don't want the future anymore.

Okay. So, you know, the Mississippi case went to the Supreme court and they're coming out with their decision. I think we're expecting it in June. And I mean, I'm holding out zero hope for that decision. The problem with that decision is if they say that it's okay for Mississippi to make it illegal from 15 weeks of pregnancy on, which is what the law is, that directly contradicts KCV Pennsylvania,

which happened right after a few years after Roe v. Wade. So it's in direct conflict with that. In that law, KCV Pennsylvania, it makes it so that the state is not allowed to make abortion illegal before viability. They can put in place certain restrictions on it, but it can't be made illegal below that. So it's a viability challenge. Now, the reason it's different from what is happening now in Texas, it's 15 weeks. So it sounds like it's not as bad. The problem is, is that is a criminal law. So if our, if our Supreme court, our current Supreme Court, and considering who's on that Supreme Court, if they decide, yeah, that's fine, they're going to gut KCV Pennsylvania.

It will no longer be about viability. We do expect pretty quickly there are a lot of states that already have, as soon as they're allowed to, everything becomes illegal completely. Some states with exceptions, some not. Right now, I looked it up just the other day. It's the Guttmacher Institute has a lovely visual of all the states where abortion is expected to become outlawed or significantly harder to get. And it's over half. It's over half the states. Oh, really? We just, we got it. We got a fund. Yeah. All right. I'm going to ask you a question. This is like a personal philosophical question.

So, but I was driving here to the studio and I was thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about. And all of these are, I think, questions that I definitely knew that we wanted to go through. But, you know, so much of the opposition to abortion comes from men. to abortion comes from men. And I guess as an abortion provider, as somebody who is a woman helping women, how do we reach out to men who don't get it already and make it something that they, like, how do we, how do we personalize this the other direction? Do you know what I mean? How do we personalize this the other direction? Do you know what I mean?

Because the opposition to abortion is so staunchly male-centered. And Cecil and I have talked about this on the show. I feel like it is clearly an extension of a patriarchal culture trying to control women, their sex and sexuality, and their viability in the workforce. But if you're trying to reach out to male hearts as an abortion provider, is there anything, any commentary you can offer on that to try to convince people? Like, how do you talk to men about abortion?

Or do you? Well, I am constantly talking to my husband about it and he's a cisgender male, white male. So he's actually learned enough at this point that just the other day he made the comment, you know, I should start a company where I just go around and I teach like cisgendered white men about why abortion is really important. And I was like, hey, that's a really good idea. He's like, I think I would know how to talk to them. They take me straight, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's a great idea. And what I boil it

down to pretty much for anyone who's anti-choice is like, okay, let's go super basic. It's bodily autonomy dudes. It's bodily autonomy. Like, do you want me to come and like, fuck anything up in your body without your permission or allow something terrible to happen to you? You know, that's, that's what I go to. It's such a basic, simple, like it even blows my mind. Like, um, there are physicians who are anti-choice. I'm like, how then you don't respect your, your patients like bodily autonomy. And that's like the most basic core of medicine. So there just shouldn't be anti-choice doctors, but you know, yeah. When we, when we talk to, when we talk about this in the past,

Tom and I, when we first started talking about any kind of abortion rights. I remember that we used to say things like We know that this is could be this is one of the most difficult decisions a woman has to make and I know i've said That a couple times in fact many women it's not a difficult decision at all to make this decision Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I feel like I feel like that is something that that feels like a right-wing talking point that maybe even liberals are falling for. Yes. Yes. And it used to be like, um, well, even the safe, legal and rare like thing, you know, um, that is super popular that no, no, it's because abortion is a spectrum that is a part of pregnancy, miscarriages, pregnancies, continuing birth. It's a whole continuum of care. And when we single it out, we wedge it like that.

And then we make people feel like, okay, it is supposed to be just a really terrible decision for everyone. I mean, it is for some people. For some people, it's like the hardest decision they ever make. And for some people it's the easiest decision they ever make. And patients will ask me that, like, is it okay that I like knew right away that I wanted an abortion? I'm like, Oh yeah, nope. If that, if you just knew that you needed an abortion, then that's what you knew, you knew your choice then that's great. Let's move on. You know, like that it's your pregnancy, it's, it's your decision. So, you know, and some people are going to struggle much further into pregnancy. And so it doesn't happen often, but I've had patients who struggle with the decision so much, they wait

weeks and weeks and, you know, that happens too, but other people, it's just a, it's a no brainer. And then, you know, we haven't even really talked at all about like the people, Oh God, I had someone today. It's like really, really fucked me up. The, the girl I had today, um, she's, I had to tell her she was too far. Like I can't do her abortion. And she was, uh, raped a couple months ago. And she was like, I'm just, I feel so gross that like, I want it out. And I was like, I totally understand what you mean. Like I'm a survivor. I get what you're saying. You want it out of your body right now. And I can't gross that I want it out. And I was like, I totally understand what you mean. I'm a survivor. I get what you're saying. You want it out of your body right now. And I can't do that.

But here are the steps. You're going to contact this fund. I literally gave her their information. And they're going to hopefully be able to get her out of state. But that's where we are. That's how bad it is. Fuck. Yeah, I remember reading a study that the most commonly cited emotion after an abortion

was relief yeah and not not you know worry nervousness regret it's just relief you know the most common commonly cited emotion after an abortion is is relief and actually i see that in my clinic like um when i am doing a procedure versus doing the pill and I'm still doing some, like now, you know, patients have a choice between the two. So I'll do a person, a super early procedure. And at the end, when I'm done, some patients who are lying there, they're just like, have this like big sigh of relief when they ask, like, is it done? And I say, yes. And they're like, Oh, and that like everyone in the room can feel it. And you're like, okay, yeah. Like we got you. Like, this is what you needed for yourself. You know?

Yeah. I, I, I mean, I, I, cause I, I hear Cecil's point. And like, I think that that message about, man, this is, this is really hard. I think that's a really damaging message. We need to be careful. And I appreciate that you brought that up. Cause like, if that's not the reality of women, like we we need to stop, like, selling that narrative. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think, like, we got to—our job is to listen.

I think all the time about this subject. Like, my job is to shut the fuck up and listen to the people who can get pregnant. Yeah. I can't get pregnant. Like, literally— There's no skin in the game. Right. It literally does not—

Right. I'll never have to make this choice. Right. So, any notion that I've got some, I got nothing to say about it except for to say like, what do you want? Sure. Cause I can't get pregnant. It's like the easiest sit. It literally could not be easier in my mind than that. It's like, can this happen to you? No. All right. Well it can happen to you. So what do you want? What was the other narrative you said? Safe, free. What was the other one you said? The one that they used to say safe, legal and rare that abortion should be rare.

Oh, I get the concept of like. Because for the people who it is a difficult decision, like you wish that they didn't have to go through it if they like had gotten birth control. It was like the Democratic talking point for a while. And then I was like, nope, should be safe, legal. And whenever the fuck I want, like, right. It doesn't matter. Like none of that matters. Like I will make the decision when it's right for me.

And then I will either have an abortion or not. And it's, it's never going to be like, we could do great, like anti, like helping people not get pregnant with all the birth control in the world. And there will still be people who get pregnant on birth control. There will still be people who have fetal anomalies. There will still be like, there will still just be abortions. There will always, there have always been abortions. There will always be abortions is what we do with them. Yeah. I was going to say, you know, if, if we, if we did give a shit, it's so funny. Cause I'm Cecil's got called up on our monitor,

the states. The states. This is from the Guttmacher Institute. And so on our show notes this week, we will post the link. I will have a link to this map where, and I just want to say one thing.

It looks like Illinois is playing a terrifying game of the floor is lava. I know. Right? Everything around Illinois is 100% red. But I look at this

and all I'm thinking is I would be willing to bet every paycheck I'll earn in the next five years that every single one of those states, Cecil, that is red, that has terrible sex education and terrible access to ready birth control. So they don't, you know, it's just more proof, you know, to the proof, Jessica, that you provided earlier, that this is not about, this is exclusively about control. This is exclusively about male control over female bodies. That's, it's not about anything else. Yeah.

Because we hit this from every conceivable angle. We actually do a tremendous amount of statistical work to make sure in these states that as many women as possible get pregnant by not providing contraception, by not providing accurate and effective sex education

at an early age. And then we narrow the window on both sides of the time continuum. We're doing everything we can to control women from every fucking angle. It's a game of fucking risk is what it is. You attack from every

side. I forgot to even mention in Texas, we've had the 24-hour waiting law in effect for a long time. What is that? Currently, that's still in effect. When I do your ultrasound, from the minute I do your ultrasound, you are not allowed to have an abortion for 24 hours.

That's like one of those gun laws where like you can't, except for in Texas, you can probably get a gun as soon as you look at one. They have terrible, terrible draconian laws in other States too. It's not just Texas where in, in some of those States, don't they have to like force the woman to get like an ultrasound?

And sometimes those can be very invasive, invasive procedures. And then like in other ones in our texas you have to get an ultrasound but i like they didn't they didn't specify in the law so luckily i don't have to probe people so i can start with abdominal ultrasound but yeah no we're required to do an ultrasound and read them like a script of information that tells them that this might cause breast cancer it might not which is the most ridiculous thing. It might, or it might not.

I mean, those are the two choices. Let's slow down. What's on the script. Like what, like clearly they've, they've prepared a script. What is on that script?

Oh yeah. So, um, I have to tell people like every conceivable thing that could happen during an abortion, including death, which is like, you know,

incredibly rare, blah, blah, blah. And then I have to tell them that this could cause breast cancer, but it's not been proven by science. I literally like, I'm allowed to, I'm allowed to say that it's not. You're allowed to say, but it's not been proven by science.

What else would prove it? Like, you know what I mean? Like what is that? What's so crazy? Well, they're so smart. They said, well, the more pregnancies that you take to term and breastfeed, the lower your risk of breast cancer is. So if you don't take pregnancies to term, they seem to think that means your risk of breast cancer will go up. But they're idiots. That just means your risk would be the same as everyone else. Oh, I am allowed to compare like how safe it is compared to carrying a pregnancy to term. I'm at least allowed to do that. And so I do tell people that carrying a pregnancy term is about 10 to 12 times safer than having an abortion. So I'm at least allowed to do that.

10 to 12 times safer or less safe? It's 10 to 12 times safer to have an abortion It's 10 to 12 times, uh, safer to have an abortion than it is to carry the term. Really? Yeah. I was going to say like, if you have to tell people how dangerous it is to have an abortion, then you, you,

I was going to ask if you were allowed to tell them how dangerous it is to have, cause it's fucking really dangerous to have a baby. Yep. So yeah, all those, all those same risks, but now 10 to 12 times.

People, it's so funny cause people never mention that like the in like the intense danger of you know like and even if everything goes right like they never say like well and also your body's gonna change it's gonna be different now and that's just also just true like it's oh yeah and pregnancy pregnancy is dangerous like i had a patient uh it was like a month ago that i had to say no get her out of state now because she was in like complete uh kidney failure and was like uh can you do my abortion no you're too far you need to get out of the state pronto like i'm fine you die so if women's lives are in danger they still can't get an abortion in texas you better be in the hospital on your deathbed and there won't be be any, I'm not, I don't have privileges in the hospital. There won't be anyone there who probably knows how to do it.

Our maternal mortality rate is like 10 to 20 times higher than any other state. Like the state is not, not where it's at from being like a female or female bodied. Yeah. Wait, did you just say that, that the maternal mortality rate was what in texas it's really but it's much higher than anywhere else in the country it's like i don't know i think it's like 10 to 20 times worse wow and it's majority of it is for people of color like that there's just a huge discrepancy huge my god well this is worse than i thought by orders of magnitude i want to ask about one of these republican straw men that I hear all the time.

And it's about late-term abortions. So we'll hear that all the time as a major talking point from the right about late-term abortions. And they cannot stop talking about it. I'm not sure I know what that is. And is that a real thing? And is that something that happens at all? Or is it something that happens commonly? So that Like, or, or, or is it, is it something that happens commonly? So that term is not, that's made up by them. Like I, that's just a made up term.

Yeah. So I know what they mean by it, but it's just what they call it to talk about that period. So they're talking and they used to always say like, oh, it's basically like right before they're about to deliver or they deliver and then they snap something and that's it. And the baby's dead. And you're like, what the hell? No, no, no, no, no. That is not how that works. We deliver a baby and we feed it to a lion.

Yeah. No. So there are there aren't many places in the country actually that you can go, but there are places a handful that you can go if you need. Like if you are into the late second trimester, early third trimester, it's very rare. There are not that many cases, like the vast majority are done in first trimester. And then like, you know, the next small amount are done in second trimester. And then it's like just very little, but those cases are often like the worst case scenarios and are people who like, it's just, they need access to care. Because there's a reason they made it that point in pregnancy and still need an abortion. Either

something, there's something wrong that they didn't know about before, or like it stopped developing at a certain point, like still horrific stuff that they need to get taken care of. I've also had patients who were very like heavy IV drug users and really didn't find out until later in pregnancy. And, you know, it was a complete meltdown situation of like, no, no, no, no, no. I can't, you know, bring to life something that is going to be really, you know, damaged basically, like it didn't form correctly, you know? And so, you know, we were we were able they can't do it in texas but we were able to get her out to another state and you know because that's the right thing

for her to do like she that was right for her so it's something that like has to be really carefully protected even though it doesn't happen very often just because they're literally like they're just people who really need help and we also also like just in, in our wording, like I noticed that even myself, we don't, we don't think about the opposite. So like we're talking about, this is awful. They don't have a choice. You got to figure out how to get out of state after your six weeks, blah, blah, blah. But okay. So then the people who don't, who can't get an abortion, well, that's state forced birth. Now we're talking about, we get like eight, nine months down the road. They're going to be people going through forced birth who Now we're talking about, we get like eight, nine months down the road.

There are going to be people going through forced birth who did not want that pregnancy and did not have the resources or the connections didn't get with the right organization. Just didn't know who to talk to or who are being abused, held within their own home who are going to go and deliver. Who knows how that will go because they probably didn't get pretty good prenatal care and they will go through a forced birth. And I just feel like we should just all think about that. You know, like that's really fucked up. Like now you've, now you forcibly turned that person into the, yeah, because of this, because we didn't have a person. And then we insisted on creation of this person that was not wanted. I mean, I'm trying to be shitty, but like that's, it just wasn't. And so are we not going to strain

other government resources in that direction now? And the answer is in Texas, probably no, because it's probably not a good safety net. But then like, how is that person going to have high quality life outcomes in aggregate? I'm not saying every person won't, there will be exceptions, but in aggregate, you know,

all the statistics show like, that's not a good way to grow up. Like these are people who, you know, probably have less resources, probably have less access, probably, you know, some of these people will be given up and become wards of the state, etc. Some of these people will be born that will have health challenges that otherwise, you know, would be impossible for them to live. It's just, it's a nightmare. The whole thing is a nightmare. Well, during the special session last summer, when they passed this abortion law, they also allocated how it made it onto the emergency list. I don't know. This was super important for Texas to pass. They passed a bill to fund, to add state funding to private foster care system in the state. Yeah. Right. Because they know there's going to be more of a demand and their friends who

are in private foster care are going to make more money. Churches. A hundred percent. Those are religious institutions too. Well, you know, it's crazy. It's crazy too,

is you're going to be able to watch this, watch the data on this, just like how they did. Remember when Pence cut, cut out all the, the condoms and the IV drug use, uh, like needles and stuff,

the needle exchange program inside of Indiana, they saw a rise in HIV because, and, and not just small and like, they don't fucking epidemic. They don't localize epidemic. Outbreak of HIV because Pence

closed the programs down that was helping people not transmit HIV. And I feel like the same thing's going to happen here where you're going to see the rise of

a bunch of children that are going to wind up in foster care and or up for adoption in orphanages and places like that, because there's just going to be a lot of children that get born that they didn't, that somebody didn't want.

Are you allowed when you read the breast cancer thing, are you allowed to look pointedly and wink? Yeah, I don't even do that. I just say that's crap, you know, right. And they're like, yeah. Oh, so you do. So you can, you can, you can go off script a little bit and say, I, I got to tell you this thing and it's nonsense, but I have to tell it to you anyway. Okay. So at least you're allowed to be a human being. Wow. That's good. So far they haven't changed that yet. Just on the regular, we say, fuck Abbott, like the patient and I like, no, he can go fuck himself.

Well, Jessica, thank you so much for joining us and telling us all about this. patient and I like no he can go fuck himself well Jessica thank you so much for joining us and telling us all about this we hope that that law we hope it gets struck down although that's not a lot of a lot of hope in the world left I think we've ran out of hope but we were hoping that it gets struck down I want to thank you for taking the time

out to talk to us about this and if things change in the future we're going to reach out to you okay sure thing 3 2 1 sing eating animals out to talk to us about this. And if things change in the future, we're going to reach out to you. Okay. Sure thing. Three, two, one, sing. Eating animals is wrong, McDonald's. Hurting animals is wrong, McDonald's. Share this song and change your entire menu to be vegan from now on. So the story, I will admit, I grabbed the story because it's funny. Yeah. It comes from a source and I want to be acknowledging. Yeah, let's just acknowledge it.

Screenshot-media.com. So guys, take this with a grain of salt. Get a great big giant grain of salt. Put that fucking enormous fucking Himalayan salt lamp in your pocket. And that's because the reason why is because that's all you're going to be able to eat. But I thought it was silly enough to talk about. Bizarre diet cult that lives without food and water caught its leader eating McDonald's. Now, this is so great.

So we actually talked about the breatharians on this show. Breatharians. Is it breathe or breath? Breatharians. I say breatharians because it's easier to say, but it could be breatharians on this show. Breatharians. Is it breathe or breath? I say breatharians because it's easier to say, but it could be breatharians. Okay, guys, I don't know if this is a Tuber-Tuberville moment. This is a Tuber-Tuberville

moment. Is it breatharian or is it breatharian? Alright, so here's the thing. Here's what breathe or breatharian is a mix. It is the nonsensical idea that human beings, in fact, I'm going to read it right from the article.

Breatharianism is a philosophy that believes that the human body, when it's in perfect harmony with itself and nature, Don't be stupid. is a perfect breatharian. You know all the constituents we need are taken from the air we breathe. You cannot start a sentence with breathe and end with breath. I will not allow it. I will not allow it. I will not allow it.

It's fucking lazy. It's lazy. There is only one thing that keeps the human body alive and that is breathing. The food that we take is the same as any other thing we take into the body

as it becomes a habit, which is a terrible sentence. What? In other words, eating is an acquired habit, just like alcohol or smoking cigarettes. Get the fuck out of here. Okay.

But by that same token, isn't breathing a habit? You just do it because you've always done it. Oh, your heart's beating like a stupid habit. Oh, my heart just goes thumpity-thump-thump-thump all the time and never stops. My stupid car has a gas habit. It won't stop.

No. Stupid car. Stupid car. I got to break it if it's gas. Like, I got to break my phone if it's fucking getting charged habit. Go fuck out of here, man. You got to feed something into it. Don't be stupid, right? It's like it's fucking simple fucking chemistry. But this guy thinks that you can use cosmic micro dust

that you breathe in and sunlight because evidently we we fucking photosynthesize without chlorophyll like i don't even know because it's what i say i don't even know what i mean is that's not how it works yeah what you mean is neither does he right yeah right it's fucking it's fucking unbelievable nonsense but the best part my favorite part and the only reason I included this in the article is the fucking backflips this guy does when he gets caught eating at McDonald's

it is well I want to stop because he gets caught eating at McDonald's and I guess he was so he's like going to eat and the only places that are open he's going to are the ones late at night because everybody else is like out and like,

they're all, they're all, those people are all dying of malnutrition. So they're lying there unable to lift their head after 8 p.m. It's like fucking starvation heights. He is fucking a hundred percent. He's a hundred percent fine

because he's leaving at night and going to get like one of those gross roller hot dogs from fucking 7-Eleven and then he's leaving at night and going to get like one of those gross roller hot dogs. I know. Fucking 7-Eleven. And then he's choking that fucking thing down. I love that he's not even eating like kale and pine nuts or whatever, right? He's not eating good food. Like he's eating the worst food.

And it's so funny too because it's always, you can always tell the ones that doth protest too much. Uh-huh. Right? You look at all these guys, you look at all the people who scream about adultery and how bad it is, and then they wind up in bed with like six different women or whatever.

You look at the people who scream about how much they hate gays and they wind up balls-thieving somebody and somebody else in the same sex. You know, the people who scream about kinks are getting fucking piss poured in their mouth in the middle of their, whatever, their scat play all weekend. sex. You know, the people who scream about kinks are getting fucking piss part in their mouth. Whatever, they scat play all weekend.

It's always those people in those and you got to stop yourself. If you're in one of these religions, you got to stop yourself and be like, hold on. Is somebody in this room protesting too much? Right. You seem overly invested. You know, this Catholic priest seems to really hate pedophiles. Yeah, right, right.

Like your emotional investment is aggressive. You're really invested in this, but this is one of those moments. Yep. One of those moments where you're just like, yeah, this dude, just like every single other weird cult out there or just regular religion out there, you know, there's some guy who's protesting way too much and he's this guy's stuck. He gets caught.

He's like, what? I don't need a Big Mac. Blah, blah, blah. That's amazing. So I want to read the part where he talks about McDonald's and because he flip-flops and he starts talking about

the third dimension, the difference, guys. In case you guys were wondering. Yeah, because there's a reason. There's a difference between the third dimension and the fifth dimension and I'll tell you what, we're not going to fucking talk about

the fourth dimension. Of course. Don't be stupid. Don't even bring it up. If you write me a fucking email about the goddamn fourth dimension, fuck the fourth dimension. I will mail you your monatomic gold back to you. Outrageous. Fuck the fourth dimension. Fuck the fourth dimension. That's some Rothschild shit. That is. Get rid of it.

Alright, so after he gets Fuck the fourth dimension. Fuck the fourth dimension. That's some Rothschild shit. That is. Get rid of it. All right. So after he gets done, he gets seen leaving a 7-Eleven with a Slurpee, a hot dog, and Twinkies. He gets, that's,

that is like, if there's a fucking holy trifecta. That's also like literally, that's like a Homer Simpson leaves the house. It is. It is.

It's 100% the Homer Simpson diet. I got to ask, when was the last, do you remember, I remember the last time I ate a Twinkie because we ate one on air. Yes. And that was the last Twinkie I ate. That's the last time I've ever had a Twinkie myself. And holy shit, was it bad. It's literally terrible.

It was so bad. The last time I had one that I remember liking, I was a tween maybe. Yeah, man. My dad was like a strict, strict dad. And so my dad had a thing against junk food. So we didn't have any junk food in the house. He wouldn't buy it. But my tutor was this neighbor girl, Heidi. And Heidi, for my birthday, bought me a box of Twinkies. And I hid it in my dresser drawer. I ate them all in like an hour. I was like, box of Twinkies. Om, nom, nom like, I was like, box on Twinkies. Om nom nom.

Yeah. And I was like, those actually weren't that good. And then you and I ate them on air. And it was like, coating your mouth with like, It's the worst. Like a sweet grease.

And I don't know. I can't, I, this is something I can't tell you, but I remember certain things as a child, tasting like fucking manna from heaven. Like where you just, you think, this is the most amazing flavor of foods. How on earth is this created?

And then I eat it as an adult and I think, what the fuck was I thinking? And now there's an opportunity there for people to chintz on quality ingredients. There's always that opportunity, right? So it could be that, you know, that it wasn't better before. There's a possibility. But then? So it could be that, you know, that it wasn't better before. There's a possibility.

But then there's also just the part that's like, you hadn't eaten anything that was good yet. Yep. I think that's most of it. I don't know. I just don't know what the answer is. But I know when I was growing up, there was like five or six things

that I thought, this is amazing. When I was a little kid, I thought Little Caesar pizza was good. It was amazing. Yeah. Now I wouldn't, I mean. I have so many questions. I don't know that I would. Would you eat thought Little Caesar pizza was good. It was amazing. Now, I wouldn't... I have so many questions. I don't know that I would. Would you eat a Little Caesar's pizza? Pizza, pizza.

You get two of them. No. You get two. I would. Look, if I had to, I would try to eat it. Yeah. But I would probably not. Just like there's been times in my life where somebody's been like, try this. I remember even going to New York and someone was like, you got to try this pizza. And I ate one piece. I was like, I'm not eating more of this. I'm like, this isn't good. This is why

I don't like this. It tastes good. Right. So I just quit. When I was a kid, I lived for a brief time. I lived with my mom until I was like middle of first grade. Then I lived with my dad. And I went back to visit my mom and I was in my early, early twenties, maybe late teens. I can't recall. And I remember I early twenties and I asked my mom, I was like, oh man, you know, if you could make me your spaghetti, I had this memory of her spaghetti in my head and she made me, my mom is not a good cook, you know, she's like, but I didn't know that. So my head, it was sugar water. It was sugar spaghetti. She like, if you ever had sweet, sugary spaghetti, it was, yeah, I like spaghetti. I'm eating a bite. I ate a bite of it. I was like, have you ever had sweet sugary spaghetti? It was. Yeah.

I like spaghetti. I'm eating a bite. I ate a bite of it. I was like, Oh God. But I had asked her to make it. So I'm like, I'm eating like sugared meat and sugared red sauce on noodles. So then there's a second recipe that I remember as a kid. So I was like, like, can you make this thing?

It was called Thermi's chicken. So like my mom would tell this story that she was on her honeymoon in Jamaica and she met a woman named Thurmy and Thurmy gave her this recipe for this chicken. It was called Thurmy's Chicken. It was her chicken recipe. And I'm like, oh man, I remember this from being a kid.

It's a special Jamaican, right? Can you make it for me? She made it. Motherfucker, it was teriyaki chicken. It was just teriyaki chicken. That's all it was. I watched her make it. It's just teriyaki chicken that's all it was i watched her make it it's just teriyaki sauce and chicken legs and it was just baked it was bad teriyaki chicken and i was like that's it

that was my childhood memory is sugar spaghetti and teriyaki chicken this is it this is what you bring to the table there used to be a and i and I wonder what it would taste like now. There used to be a place called Marcelloni's by us. Oh, I remember Marcelloni's. And they used to make a thing called a beef roll. Yes. Oh, I would eat one of those. And so it was Italian beef. Yeah. And it was Italian beef that was like wrapped up, essentially a calzone of Italian beef. And then you would dip it in au jus or in jardiniere and you would eat it. And it's a very, it's a very, it's a very Chicago thing, right?, it's a very Chicago thing, right? Like it's a very Chicago thing.

Like it's not anything I think you would get anywhere else in the, in the United States. Cause there's no, when I say calzone, I don't mean it had tomato sauce in it. Right. It wasn't a calzone. It was cheese and what we call Italian beef, which is very, very finely shaved round, or I'm not sure if it's round actually.

Now that I mentioned it. Maybe it's not. But it's a piece of, it's a large roast of beef that they roast for a long time and then they take it on a slicer and they slice it super, super thin. And then they let it sit in that jus and it sits in that jus

and essentially just sits there and then they normally you normally serve it on a sub roll with some jardiniere which is like hot, oily relish. And that'll go on it with like cheese sometimes. Pepper relish, not a pickle relish. Yeah, it's not a pickle relish, it's peppers. It's like a, like a sport pepper that's been cut. Sometimes there's celery, sometimes there's carrots in it, but there's an oil in it and there's also a heat. And it's a very, again, it's a very Chicago thing. Chicago centric. It's hard to find anywhere else. It's called

Giardiniera. I don't know if it's sold anywhere else. I know it's sold in Chicago, but again, it's a hyper Chicago thing. But they would serve these Italian beef with mozzarella cheese and it would be folded over and then it would be sliced and then you would eat a slice and they would have either

au jus, which is again a very common thing that you would eat a slice and they would have either au jus, which is again, a very common thing that you would eat with a roast beef type thing. Or there would be like this giardiniera that you could have. So I remember having one of those. I don't know what it would taste like.

Now I made one a couple of years ago myself. Was it outstanding? Yeah, it was delicious. It was outstanding. It was fucking amazing. I remember that marsh, because I got fired. That was my first job was a marsh lawn.

I got fired from a marsh lawn. Delivering flyers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah yeah yeah i gotta read this guys just i'm just straight read like a couple of paragraphs because it's fucking delicious then came the mcdonald's fiasco brooks believed that humans aren't supposed to live in a third dimensional reality instead we're all fifth dimensional beings who are trapped on earth currently being sucked into the 3d world which is why we feel the urge to eat 3D food. So when the leader was caught eating, apologize,

Easting McDonald's, he incorporated the American fast food giant into the philosophy. According to him, all McDonald's locations are apparently built on properties protected by fifth dimensional properties, energies,

and spiritual portals. This is why breatharians feel happier and at peace in McDonald's. He then went on to recommend his followers to drink as much Diet Coke and eat as many double quarter pounders with cheese as possible before they meditate, claiming that Diet Coke is liquid light and that cows are magical fifth dimensional converters who turn third dimensional food into fifth dimensional food. Well, if that's the case, if cows are, then wouldn't any cow be that?

Or would it only be ones on McDonald's? It's only like the lowest quality cows that were sick before they were slaughtered. It's only the stuff that they swept up off the slaughter room floor. Right. That's the only part of the cow that's full of fucking fifth dimensional white. I don't eat this Wagyu beef. That's garbage food.

No, that's garbage. I gotta eat this like pressed meat paste. What do they call it? Pink sludge. What is it? Remember that pink sludge? It was like what?

Chicken nuggets or whatever. Chicken nuggets. Pink sludge. I'm not deep state, dude. I'm shallow. The stain's on top of you, dude. You're under it. Just admit it, dude.

Just admit you're deep state, dude. Okay, I'm a little deep state. I'm shallow The state is on top of you dude you're under it Just admit it dude just admit you're deep state Okay I'm a little deep state Now you guys know too much And you have two options okay I can either kill you and have my girl Hillary Come over here and clean up your bodies Or y'all can join the deep state with your boy I mean I'm down to go deep dude

I'll go deep with you bro Okay well here's your deep state passport And here's your deep state shoes. We're sponsored by Nike. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. So this story comes from the Washington Post. Now, there's a lot of articles about Ginny Thomas, who is the wife of Clarence Thomas. But, you know, before we start talking about that, the wrong way to think about Ginny Thomas is just as the wife of Clarence Thomas.

Ginny Thomas is a political powerhouse and power broker. And she has always been a powerhouse and a power broker. She has worked for the Heritage Institute, which is a conservative think tank. Sure. She has had, as recently as 2020, she has had the personal cell phone number for Mark Meadows, the chief of staff of the White House. She is not somebody's wife. She's not just some random. That's a wrong way to think.

It's not even just by nepotism. Right. It's not just by a connection. Right. It's more than that. So the figures on the right, Mitch McConnell included, obviously, they are trying to portray this as, oh, the left is just going after his wife. Fuck that noise. We're going to talk about this because this Washington Post article has an interesting spin on it. But also, it's important to just, at the

offset, start off and say, look, Jenny Thomas is and was an important political figure. She works every single day, full time, in the political world. And she wields an enormous amount of influence. So pretending that she's just like, oh, I'm just little old Ginny Thomas. Like, why would anyone attack me? Is some bullshit. And it's not a useful way to think about this.

This story from the Washington Post talks about the way that Ginny Thomas frames the conversation around the election as a religious conversation. And that's not just her, her and Meadows. Right. Yeah. So here's some quotes from Mark Meadows. This is a fight of good versus evil. looks like looks like the victor until the king of kings triumphs do not grow weary in well-doing in another jenny thomas threatens you guys fold the evil just moves fast down underneath you all these are the side conversations going on right now or going on in 2020 between the white House chief of staff and Ginny Thomas,

who shares not just the ear, but the bed of a Supreme Court justice who is hearing cases pertinent to the January 6th commission. Holy shit. Wasn't Thomas the only one who dissented against one of those things where everyone else assented? only one who dissented against one of those things where everyone else assented. Literally, Thomas's dissent was the only dissent on whether or not the January 6th Commission would have access to White House transcriptions and communication records, likely because Ginny Thomas is communicating with fucking Mark Meadows. Also, I want to just talk about the way that these things are framed. want to just talk about the way that these things are framed because we, I think you and I go into this very often seeing the people that, that are having these conversations or that are trying to

influence the masses. And we see them and we think to ourselves, they're in on the grift. Yeah. They're the grifters. They're doing the grift. They have the grift planned out. They go in with the grift planned out and then they grift. And they use whatever kind of power that they have and they don't believe it. Yeah. I know. I think this is one of those

moments where you go to Jim Baker's house and you find his whole basement is full of buckets. And you think, how does that... Holy shit. Wait, I didn't think that was possible. Why would you have buckets? But he has the buckets. Uh-huh. Yeah. And you think, how does that? Holy shit. Wait, I didn't think that was possible. Why would you have buckets? Uh-huh. But he has the buckets. Uh-huh. Yeah.

And you're like, but you believe this? I thought for sure you didn't believe this, but you do believe this and that makes you more terrifying. Yeah. There's only real, I know, man, because I thought like, like there's only two possibilities. Either they're grifting so much they can't turn it off. Yeah.

So that's a possibility for sure. So like when Ginny reaches out to Mark, she's using the language of her grift. And when Mark reaches out to Ginny, he's responding and using the language of his grift. Yeah. Because that's the language that they've couched so much of their public persona within.

Yeah. So that's one option, which is devastatingly upsetting in its own right. Yeah. You know? Or option two, yeah, which is, I don't know if it's more scary, but it's at least as scary,

which is that they're true believers. Yeah. From what I've read, and I read a little bit, I listened to the Daily. Ginny Thomas sounds like a fucking true believer, man. She sounds like a legit true believer man yeah she sounds like a legit true believer in the whole q anon like she thought that there were naval ships outside just outside

of gitmo that were getting ready to like hang the biden criminal family for war crimes like she she believed she bought into that shit bought into. That is a level of crazy directly, at least adjacent to a Supreme court, to a Supreme court justice. What the fuck? Where are we at? Yeah. This, this what's crazy to me is like, it's all about the connections, right? Because I feel like Ginny Thomas before being able to dive into some internet boards, probably would not be as fucking Looney Tunes as she is. But she's tuning herself up, following all these different places, and then gets sucked into these crazy boards. These places where literally some random person will just say something out loud and everyone will believe it as gospel truth. There's some random person said that there was

these naval ships. They said that this was going to happen. And, and it's not that just like, and what's so crazy to me is someone could have so much control over someone who is seemingly so powerful so easily. Well, and I want to be at great pains to make this part clear too, because I've been wrestling with this all week on this and a variety of other issues. But Ginny Thomas is a smart, if not brilliant woman. And it has become increasingly apparent that you can be incredibly bright. In fact, in every conceivable, in brilliant, successful, powerful, competent person. And somehow, and I don't honestly understand how. I don't get this, yeah. Not shielded from bullshit. Not being able to fight against QAnon,

which seems like the easiest thing to dismiss. I literally cannot make heads or tails of this. I can't understand how these things are all true, but I know that they're true because it is true that Ginny Thomas is a incredibly well-ed, far better educated than I am, far more successful, far more competent by any reasonable measure than I am. But she believes this crazy shit. Yeah. So like, there's like a part of me that is just baffled at how somehow education and experience and competency, none of this safeguards you against bullshit?

Yeah. Shouldn't it? Why doesn't it? It feels like there should be some armor there. Right. But I also feel like she's motivated to believe all this stuff. She is 100% motivated to believe it because it makes her feel like she's right. It makes her feel like she's in the right. It makes her, whenever anything bad happens to the other side, it makes her feel like she's right. It makes her feel like she's in the right.

It makes her, whenever anything bad happens to the other side, it makes her feel justified. And those things are powerful. And it's more powerful than the armor of rationality or whatever it is. Yeah. The thing is like, it's got to be because all of these things are in fact true. It's happening. It's happening in front of us. Did you watch, there's a documentary trending on Netflix. I don't know if you watched it called Bad Vegan. Have you watched it? No, I haven't watched it. Do you like true crime documentaries?

Not really. You hated that. It's a true crime documentary. Yeah, it's not. I thought it was really interesting. And if you've watched it out there, like I just, Haley and I just watched it. And there's a lot going on in it, but it's kind of a similar note, which is what got me to thinking about it. What really struck me with this Jenny Thomas story is that, you know, there are people

out there who are by every measure, just wildly successful, wildly successful, incredibly well educated, and just absolutely falling for the craziest stuff that when you say it out loud, you're like, how the fuck did you believe in this nonsense? QAnon should, we've talked about this before, but it's so insane that saying it out loud should be disqualifying of its belief. Just say it out loud. Just say Scientology out loud. Sure. It's almost like these belief systems happen so incrementally that they're never said fully out loud. You don't recite the whole thing. Right. And I've been thinking about that.

Like, should we recite back to ourselves the things we believe? Right. Like the skeptics' creed. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, we were recently on Em And then skeptics trade. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, we were recently on embrace the void and he, he was, he was asking questions that were along this line. And I, and I was like, should we to guard against this stuff? Should we, as a matter of like practical exercise, should we write down and say out loud back to ourselves

some of the core things that we believe to be true about the world? Because I guarantee, like, if I said out loud the Q stuff right back to me, I'd be like, wait, wait. What did I say? Or like, wait a minute, all the McDonald's are fifth dimensional McDonald's. Yeah. Maybe I just like quarter pounders, you know? Anyway, so let's talk about Ginny here for a second. What do you think about this January 6th commission? They keep on bouncing into all these different things and specifically they're bouncing into, they find out this stuff

and now the public knows about all this stuff. They found out about a bunch of other stuff this week just broke that there's been seven hours of blank nothing. Missing phone calls. Missing phone call things. And there's calls that were made. Were made, definitely made,

but they're not on the thing, which is a breaking of laws. Every week, I see a thing that says we're closer and closer and closer to Trump being charged and nothing is happening. It's so disheartening for me because it feels like...

I'm heartened by that, actually. Because I don't want them to rush. I want the... I was thinking about this Because I don't want them to rush. Yeah. I want the, like, what I want, I was thinking about this because I remember you brought this up before. Yeah. And what I want is two things. And one is I want the investigation

to be full and complete and unimpeachably accurate. And so, like, finding out suspicious stuff is suspicious. And normal people are like, all right, but it's gotta be perfect. Yeah.

It's gotta be perfect. And it's gotta be documented down to the fucking nth degree. Yeah. If we're going to move against these power brokers. The good thing is, is that it's not going to Congress anymore. Right? So the good thing is,

is that the moment you do something like this, and if you do hand it over to a criminal agency, then it's in their hands. It's in their hands. Now, granted, you only have a couple of years before another president comes in. And I don't know if they have the power to look at an executive branch like the Justice Department and say, I need you to stop this thing. Yeah, I don't know either.

That might be a little shady. Shady as fuck if they do that. Right. But, you know, plenty of stuff happens without anybody saying anything out loud. Plenty of stuff happens too that because it's politically motivated, we give up the shading. So if the Republican were in charge in 2024,

they would say, all right, we're going to end this politically motivated witch hunt. Exactly. That's the language they would use. Sure. Right, and they would just turn it off. Part of me wonders if they are not going to do a good job

and then break most of this right before November. So if I was a Q-type person, right, and I was going to say there's, I was going to ascribe some kind of strategic arc to this, I would subscribe a strategic arc that would break the majority of this in September, October, right before the November midterms, right? But I don't actually think that that's the case.

What I think is that all the people that are on that commission have taken this real seriously and they want to be sure to get it very, very right. And getting complicated things right takes time. And I hope, and also, you know, there's subpoenaing people that aren't showing up. And so there's a lot of cock blocking. There is a lot of like slowing down. There is a lot of break. So, but I, you know, we just need to do whatever work is necessary to get closer to what's true. But I am anxious for it. I am anxious as well.

I'm anxious for it. I'm anxious and it sucks because, you know, we waited for a long time for the Mueller report and that was, nothing happened with that. And then, you know And you could certainly point to certain parts of the government at a certain point, especially Bill Barr, as somebody

who helped stifle anything that could have come out of that. But yeah, it's a difficult place to be in because you can see these things, like you said, they're very suspicious and you'd love to hear someone answer for it, but you can't. Well, you know, it's amazing because it's sort of like, we've got this system.

I was like, we've got Alex Jones. I was thinking about Alex Jones this week and Alex Jones is kind of proof of this. We have this system that to some degree relies on a level of social legal cooperation. And when you just flaunt that, the system kind of doesn't know what to do. So, like, Alex Jones was supposed to appear in a deposition, and he just didn't go. But they did

charge him, like, $24,000 a day. They did. Yeah. But, like, that's because there's a system for that. Yeah. But in these special congressional inquiries, they call people, and up until now, everybody shows

up. And now people are just thumbing their nose at them. And then that puts everybody in this weird spot where it's like, well, what do you mean you're not going to testify before Congress? Fucking baseball players showed up to talk about whether or not they were fucking injecting steroids in their ass to talk about whether or not they were fucking injecting steroids in their ass to hit more home runs.

Are you fucking kidding me? You're not going to show up? Yeah. I just don't know that we have like good mechanisms. I think it's always sort of been this handshake agreement. Yeah. And pretty soon people are like, fuck you. Eat a dick. What are you going to do? And then the answer is nothing. I feel like

2016 to now has really strained that social agreement. Yep. There needs to be just different rules. Everything's got to have teeth. It's got to have teeth. Everything's got to have teeth because if you don't, what's going to happen? And I feel like we were talking about this for years while it was happening before. Yeah.

And I feel like the first thing you do is say, no, we're going to change this so it has teeth in the future. Yep. Regardless of who it is. Everything used to have teeth because the tooth would be, it'll be a scandal that'll ruin your career.

Yeah, it doesn't. And now it's like, it'll be a scandal that nobody listens to. That nobody cares about. Because nothing ruins anyone's career. Or they'll blame it on us

and say it was Q or something. Right. Yeah. So, we'd like to thank our patrons, but we can't because Ian didn't put them in the notes. So I don't know who they are. Hold on. Hey, if you're a patron,

you know it in your heart. Yeah. And if you're a patron and you know it in your heart and you didn't get your name, tweet at Ian to tell him how bad a person he is. That's a good idea. Genuinely how bad a person Ian is because That's a good idea. Genuinely how bad a person Ian is. Cause you didn't get your name right out because here's the thing guys. Like we did admittedly kind of throw Ian for a little curve ball.

And if he doesn't do everything in the right order in the right way, then he forgets where he is. And he's got to get like picked up by the police. And he's just one wheeling around in a circle. He's in his underwear. He doesn't know what's happening. If you take anything out of his, out of his planned day.

Do you think he's a really like regimented guy? No, I don't either. That's going to go in toaster shake. And so we also want to thank, we want to thank Aaron from Embrace the Void. He had us on this last week to talk about the Grand Unified Theory of Bullshit.

It was a very interesting interview. Very difficult interview, if I'm going to be real honest. Yeah, he was coming at it. Difficult questions in a way that I hadn't thought about the book before or the mindset that we're trying to espouse in the book. So a great interview, really interesting.

And you should check it out. It's on Embrace the Void. We'll be on there. It released this last Wednesday. So you can check it out. If you go to our Twitter page, I know we retweeted it. So you can check it out there.

We'll put it on this week's show notes. We want to thank him for coming on. And we do plan on having Aaron on our show to talk about some social media stuff that he's been doing. His show is such an interesting collection of experts and people who are really in deep in sort of some really deep philosophical and theoretical places.

And they're really interesting interviews. And some of the stuff he did on social media recently with some of his guests has been really amazing. And so we're going to talk to him probably about some of that stuff coming up, not right away, but we're looking at maybe getting him back on the show again

because he was such a fun guest when he talked about Monster Island and we're hoping to get him on again. But a really fun time. Again, if you haven't checked out Embrace the Void, it really is a terrific show. You should be listening to it anyway. So head on over there

of course listen to our interview yeah it's the best thing he's ever done sure but then hang out yeah hang out hang out for a bit

and the second best thing he ever done was when he interviewed you alone oh yeah he did interview me alone a while check that out about a year ago so that's the second best

the rest of it is all underneath that yeah it's like yeah it's not as good it's good trash it's okay but you know we also didn't if you're looking for a video this week It's like, it's not as good. It's good trash. It's okay.

We also didn't, if you're looking for a video this week, not only did we not stream, but we did not do a video this week for this week's show. This week's show was difficult because we had a guest on who we weren't really crazy about sharing their image.

So we decided not to do any video at all. But next week we plan on being back with both a video. And a live stream. And a live stream. And I have a special surprise for the live stream next week, we plan on being back with both a video and a live stream. And I have a special surprise for the live stream next week. But I'm not telling anybody what it is. I have a very special surprise, and

you're going to want to show up for the special surprise live stream that we're going to have next week. Tom doesn't even know what it is. I planned it out for today, but we couldn't do it today. But I have a whole plan for something very interesting to happen. So come to our next live stream and it'll be a lot of fun.

That's next Thursday night. That's 9 p.m. Central. And you can go there on Facebook, on Twitch and on YouTube and you can watch us live and you can chat with us. We're going to be chatting with people. So we see the chat.

We get, the cool thing about the chat is we can see the aggregated chat. So we look at the chat that comes from all three providers. That's right, yeah. And so we can see if you'd send us a message on, if you talk to any of those chats, you type in any of those chats, chances are we may see it if the chat is up while we're,

you know, sometimes we're busy doing other things, but there is an opportunity for at least us to see it. And then you can also communicate with those small communities that are there as well. And very often, you know, the chat that's happening inside of the, of the video while we're talking is a different thing that's happening from what we're doing. And so there's a whole community thing that's going on along with watching it together. And there's a whole thing going on there. That's just,

it's just, it's love it. Yeah. It's interesting and it's its own thing. So come check it out next week, 9 PM.m. Central. I want to talk about a little bit of email that we got. We got this message. We posted this to our Twitter feed, but we're going to post it again on this week's show notes. Jordan Peterson just breaking into tears over how awful Antifa is. And he's also, he feels like he's on the edge

of a breakdown. Dude, he looks terrible. Like, I actually feel a little, and I hesitate to say this, I feel a little concerned about him. Yeah, me too. Honestly. Me too. He doesn't look well. Yeah, he really doesn't. Yeah. He really doesn't. And I will say, too, I just, this week, listened to

a two-part maintenance phase episode about Jordan Peterson. And knowing a little more about who he is as a person makes me worry about him even more, even though I don't like him. Sure. Like I don't like him at all. And I don't like him more. But also like just from an empathy standpoint, that man doesn't look like he's well. No, he does not.

But check it out. It's on this week's show notes. We're also going to post a picture of Gary. Gary was spotted out in the world in what looks like the kids section. And he found a friend. And so we're going to post it on this week's show notes. We want to thank Elizabeth for sending that in. Got a message,

Tom. This is from Steve about bourbon. Yeah. So as a Kentucky native who's been enjoying bourbon straight since I was 13. 13? I was smoking since I was 13. I wasn I was smoking since I was 13. I wasn't drinking bourbon at 13. I can honestly say that in my own personal opinion, a $15 bottle of Ezra Brooks is the best bourbon you can get.

We got to try it. We'll try it. There's like four or five bourbons. We should just take a ride. Yeah, we'll zip over to Binnie's. To Binnie's and just go check it out and see what we can find. We got a message from Paul. And I am pretty sure Paul is someone who I had a conversation with

about science fiction books. Really? At QED. I don't know if it's the same Paul, but I did have a conversation with a gentleman at QED for, you know, maybe 20, 30 minutes while we were at QED, just talking about science fiction books. We had a blast just chatting about it. It's fun to find other

sci-fi geeks, so it's fun to just chit-chat with them. And so I think it might be the same person, but he said, just to mention The Handmaid's Tale in episode 622 in the books, race is a big thing. In fact, there are no black people in the books as they've all been sent to national homelands, possibly slave

labor, though it's never made clear because they are the children of Ham and therefore cursed. I was only speaking, Paul, of the TV series, which I do not remember. I remember seeing black people. I don't remember that they were- Yeah, there's black handmaids in the TV series. Necessarily pushed as a bad thing.

I don't think, but I admittedly, I only watched the series. Yeah, I read The Handmaid's Tale. I did not, I don't think, but I, I admittedly, I only watched the series. Yeah. I read the Handmaid's Tale. Uh, I did not, I think I got, I have the testaments on Audible and I think Haley and I started it and I think we got a little sleepy and didn't finish it. Yeah. So yeah. Her, her other book though, the Oryx and Craig is delight. That's is delight that's the one book don't read the other two no don't read the other two but Oryx and Craig

is a fucking good book it's so good and the way she writes that book her prose in that book it's great it's a beautiful book it's a really great book yeah

hard agree yeah because I you recommended it you've been recommending that book to me for years I mean for years and I finally got to it

maybe a year or two ago. And then I was all excited. I listened to the first one. I was like, oh, it's so good. And I got the second one. I was like, oh. It's so bad. Fuck.

It's so bad. It's so bad. It's way, and it's the second and third books in that series. Terrible. But that book, if you like post-apocalyptic fiction, or actually pre-apocalyptic in a way,

it's kind of post-apocalyptic. I don't know. It's like on the verge of apocalyptic for a lot of it because it's told in the past tense. I was going to say, it depends on where in the timeline you're at. But yeah. But if you like that kind of thing,

apocalyptic fiction, really good. Yep. Well, we got a couple of messages. This one's from Ethan. There's another one where people are saying that we mentioned a person who is running for the California Secretary of State. And we were both like,

this woman's never going to win. There's no way she'll win. And they said, we're a bit worried about you guys talking about this, just saying she'll never win. She's the only person running, just letting you know. Well, I want to make sure that we're clarify here.

She's the only person running, just letting you know. Well, I want to make sure that we're clarifying here. She's the only person running for the Republican primary, right? Because there's no way the California Secretary of State is a wide open race that no one else is. That they're not fielding a Democrat? That no one is fielding a Democrat for. If she's just running for the Republican primary and she's the only Republican primary, I'm still very comfortable.

I'm still very comfortable. And the reason why there's no other qualified candidates is because they don't think they can win the race. They don't think they have a chance.

And that's why they put, that's why there was a Nazi in fucking the suburbs of Illinois because he just collected enough fucking people. But there was no chance he was going to win.

There was literally zero chance. He got collected like 2% of the vote. Yeah, he collected some tiny percentage of the vote. And he got just barely enough signatures to even get on. So I just,

I recognize what you're saying, but I don't think you're telling me, you can't be telling me the whole thing. There's no way she's running unopposed. There's no way the Democrats in California were just like, oh, let's not run anyone. I don't think you're telling me, you can't be telling me the whole thing. There's no way she's running unopposed. There's no way the Democrats in California were just like, let's not run anyone.

I don't believe that. Tom, this is in response to your comments last week when we talked about, we're talking about COVID-19 and both of us were very depressed that the money that the government was paying for COVID-19 patients was going to go away. And you had said that one of the things that the government was paying for COVID-19 patients was going to go away. And you had said that one of the things that was pretty important

was that it felt like we were going in the right direction towards a universal healthcare plan in some way, right? Yeah, we were actually like taking care of people. And so we got an interesting message. This is from a patron. So our patron says, regarding the end of funding for COVID patients, I'm an infectious disease specialist

who's been working at my suburban hospital since the pandemic began. The federal funding for our mostly uninsured COVID patients have been a unique opportunity that we had not failed to take advantage of. So many of them have come in with other issues, heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, etc. It has been wonderful to be able to take care of them without worrying that we were medically bankrupting them i'm just as dismayed as you that this benefit is going away but i will take heart that during the howling deviation that has been the last two years we managed to wring some good what a great line yeah very true good for you though you know at least at least you get something right well i'm glad that's over Wouldn't want to take care of people.

Fuck your heart disease. Tom, we got a message from Josh, and Josh says, the GOP candidate that's running for Secretary of State also claimed witches and Satanists were sacrificing animals in front of her house. Oh my God.

And that her prayers led to the death of a witch in her neighborhood. She wished someone to death, Tom. Did they have to go onto the cornfield? This lady shouldn't be able to run. Like, she should be disqualified. Why is there no test for sanity? Terrifying, dude.

Terrifying. Got a message from Matt and he sent a picture and this is of Ketanji Brown Jackson and, you know, a couple of people in Congress. And so we're just going to leave it at that and post it on this week's show notes.

Thank you, Matt, for sending it in. You know, a couple of things. First, I want to encourage people to rate our show on iTunes. If you haven't, if you've been listening for a while and you haven't rated in a while, go ahead and rate us on iTunes.

You know, that helps our show get more visibility. And we'd really love it if you would give us a good rating on iTunes. If you think we're worth a five star, just hop on over there and rate us on iTunes. You know, that helps our show get more visibility. And we'd really love it if you would give us a good rating on iTunes. If you think we're worth a five star, just hop on over there and give us a rating. Or, you know, if you happen to listen to us in another place, you know, if it's Stitcher,

if it's something else, just stop. Wherever you listen. Yeah, wherever you listen, just stop and rate us if you can. We really very much appreciate that. We'd also love it if you would go to YouTube and be sure to subscribe there because we are posting our videos.

At least we're going to try whenever we can, we're going to record these video podcasts and we'd love it if we could get more subscribers and more people to see that. And the best, the best way to do that of course, is for the people who, who are fans of the show to go and become subscribers. So it pumps that subscriber count out. So when someone sees our video come across their screen, they say, Oh, well maybe they, oh, they seem to have a lot of subscribers. That's a thing that someone, a lot of people seem to like, maybe I will like it as well. And so it helps us get more visibility.

And so we very much appreciate it if you would do that. We'd also like to reach out to everybody who's read the book. We just wrote a book called The Grand Unified Theory of Bushlet. It's been doing really well on Amazon, but if you haven't bought the book yet, of course, we'd encourage you to go buy the book.

And if you want to buy the audio book right by Tom, that's a great way to do it. You could do that on our website, but we'd also love it. If you, if you did buy the book, just to go back to Amazon, cause that's really the only place it's selling and rate it if you don't mind. Yeah. And thank you to all of you who have done that. Yeah. A lot of people have rated it and it's been really helpful to us, but the more ratings, the better off that book's going to be. And the more people are going to see it. And the more people that don't listen to the show may pick that book up. So it's going to help us out. So the ratings are very important for us and we do appreciate everybody who's done it, but we want to implore you, please go rate the stuff that you, if it's the podcast that you

haven't rated, please rate that. Go subscribe on YouTube or go rate the book if you bought the book. So thank you so much. If you please do that, we would very much appreciate it. Yeah. All right. So that's going to wrap it up for this week. Be sure to join us next week. Live stream, something really special planned.

We're going to catch you then, but we're going to leave you like we always did with the skeptics. Creed. Credulity is not a virtue. It's fortune cookie cutter. Mommy issue. Hypno Babylon. Bullshit.

Couched in scientician, double bubble toil toil and trouble, pseudo-quasi-alternative acupunctuating, pressurized stereogram, pyramidal free energy healing, water downward spiral, brain deadpan, sales pitch, late night info docutainment. Leo Pisces, cancer cures, detox

reflex, foot massage, death in towers, tarot cards, psychic healing, crystal balls, Bigfoot, Yeti, aliens, churches, mosques, and synagogues, temples, dragons, giant worms, Atlantis, dolphins, truthers, birthers, witches, wizards, vaccine nuts, shaman healers, evangelists, conspiracy, doublespeak, stigmata, nonsense. demon healers, evangelists, conspiracy, double-speak stigmata, nonsense. Expose your sides. Thrust your hands. Bloody, evidential, conclusive. Doubt even this. The opinions and information provided on this podcast are intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions are solely that of Gloryhole Studios LLC.

Cognitive dissonance makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information and will not be liable for any errors, damages, or butthurt arising from consumption. All information is provided on an as-is basis. No refunds. Produced in association with the local dairy council and viewers like you.