Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 766: The Parents Who Regret Having Children

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Show Notes    

This episode of Cognitive Dissonance is brought to you by our patrons. You fucking rock. Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. The explicit tag is there for a reason. Recording live from Glory Hole Studios in Chicago and beyond, This is Cognitive Dissonance. Every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way. We bring critical thinking, skepticism and irreverence to any topic that makes the news makes it big or makes us mad. It's skeptical.

It's political. And there is no welcome mat. You're listening to this on Thursday, May the 16th. That's not what day it is for us, but it doesn't matter. It's long form day, deep dive day. Deep dive day. So Cecil, you put a bunch of stories. So Cecil does all the story hunting for us.

So he puts all the stories in there and he found these stories and I grabbed them because after I read through these stories, I realized that they spoke to two different experiences. So this is the story, the main story here is from time. And it's called the parents who regret having children. But I thought that these stories spoke to two different experiences

that might be relevant for both of us. It's parents who not only regret having children, but also people who just don't want to have children at all. So it kind of these, although the title of it is, I think, a little more incendiary or like a little more attention grabbing. Also a little more click baity. Click baity. Yeah. Yeah. I really think that this article speaks to both experiences. The experiences of maybe having children and having complicated or regretful feelings about it, or less than joyful feelings about it, and people that

just don't want to have kids at all. And I think those are experiences that people are less comfortable than they should be talking about. I think so too. And I really want to touch on something you hit off right at the beginning. Less than joyful. And I think one of the things that is apparent when you hear... Apparent, huh? When you hear the people talk about these things, when you hear about the different types of people that are talking, you know, they're interviewing multiple different people, and when they talk to them, there seems to be a thread, and that thread is,

they had expectations, and they were told things about parenthood, which meant that one, it was gonna be amazing and that you should do it, and that nothing will compare to it, and that they sort of expected then that it was gonna be 100% joyful. They expected it to be not only life-changing, but life-changing in a good way, right?

Parenting is life-changing. Oh yeah? But it's not all good. And I think people get sold a bad bill of goods. And I also wanna start out prefacing by saying, it may sound like you and I may be negative throughout this conversation, because I'm negative on having kids myself.

I didn't have kids. So for me, it's a negative anyway. But I know that there's people out there who enjoy it, love it, and for them it is only a joyful thing. And that's okay. That's great. That's wonderful. But that's also probably a bunch of factors

that lead to that. One, their kid happens to be probably somebody who is not leading towards anything that might be less than joyful, right? And then they probably have means in which to take care of the child that makes it so it's a lot less stress, et cetera, et cetera. So if you have a joyful life with your child, that might be a life full of privilege too, but I also wanna recognize there are people out there in this, in this world that enjoy and love to have kids

and enjoy it and that's, it's been a lifelong thing and it fulfills them and that's wonderful. And it's great if you can find that, but it also is true that that's not everybody's experience. Yes, and I think these articles do a really important job of touching on a few things. But one of the things that struck me and that you were you kind of were alluding to as well is that when we're growing up, there are two factors in my in my view, there are two factors

which combine to create a sort of disillusion or a sort of illusion soup around kids. And that is that like, because we are still just animals, there is for many people a biological imperative. And I think that that's touched upon in the article where the author writes that for some people she knows, the urge, the drive to have kids feels like this deep primal instinct that they have to obey. And I never felt that instinct,

but I do know many people who have felt and have expressed this idea that they just need to have kids, that like the idea of them not having kids would fill them with real grief, like genuine heartbreaking grief. That I don't have a personal connection with that, but I know people, many people who've expressed that,

like people who are like, God, we've been trying so hard to have a kid and it's just breaking our hearts that it's not working. Things like that. People turn to, you know, IVF or other means in order to like have kids when it's not working in this sort of just fucking have kids way that it often works, right?

So I think there's a biological imperative that's true for most animals to just reproduce. I don't think it's true for all people, but it's true in large enough numbers that I think it like then combines with this sort of like social cultural narrative that white washes and romanticizes what it means to have children,

particularly in a capitalist nuclear family society. And I think when you combine all of those things, we end up with this illusion soup where we imagine this strong, healthy, happy, joyful nuclear family where the kids behave like they do on commercials and nobody's ever sick and nobody has disabilities and the kids are people you like and it makes your relationship stronger to have kids

and like you share important things in common. And look, that happens, that happens a lot. I don't wanna suggest it doesn't. But it does sometimes not happen. And then, you know, people like in the TV and movies, this is what I'm talking about, the narrative, TV and movies and books and magazines and photos and commercials of people running in the park, you know?

It always shows this sense of great fulfillment in being in that role, embodying that role of parent. And then there's articles about those people who don't feel that feeling of like deep satisfaction and fulfillment, or who have found that they are not up to the challenge of having children, or who have children with disabilities,

and like all of a sudden their lives are profoundly changed and the time demands are much greater than they thought or it damages their relationship with their spouse to have kids or, you know, it pulls them out of the workforce and they don't find that work at the home as meaningful. You know, there's a lot that we just never talk about. We just never get around to it.

That's really true about having kids. And I think we need to have those conversations and we're not doing it. Well, I think in a lot of ways, and in many times in this article they've mentioned, it's demonized. You don't wanna say these things. These things that you, you have to keep this to yourself.

You have to bottle this up. And the reason why, and I think there is good reasoning to bottle some of this up, especially around your children, because you don't want them to feel like they are a burden, like they did something that was wrong. You're the one who fucking had them, you know, buckle up. You're the one who's gotta take care of them. You've gotta figure this out.

Yes, it can suck, but you also have to do it, right? And so, but you also just don't wanna have those conversations where you don't want them to have to hear it, right? And so, but you also just don't want to have those conversations or you don't want them to have to hear you complaining about them. And so, lots of times that means to people that I can never talk about this to anyone. Yeah. And they don't even, they mentioned in this article,

they don't even talk to their therapist about this. How crazy is that? So they'll have a therapist and they'll have these deep feelings of resentment and then never bring them up because they feel that it would make them be a bad person or a bad parent. And the fact is, is that what you have to do is naturalize that sort of thing.

Normalize the fact that parenting isn't all commercials. It's not all just everything's gonna be amazing. There's a lot that goes into it. Like you said, there's crazy time demands and there's other things that may change your career, it may change how your relationship is affected with your significant other, and you have to contend with that stuff.

And pretending that it's all bubbly and nothing is wrong is that's the worst thing that you could do. It is and like, I felt like a strong sense of pushback on the article when she mentions what you had alluded to about like, well, you don't want like your kids to think that like you regret having them, right? because it would damage the kids if they felt like that. And I think like, yeah, probably,

but only because the kids are swimming in the same soup that tells them that there's no complexity to our emotional lives with respect to parenting and childhood. I like, I would be perfectly okay if my dad said I never wanted to have kids. Because I also recognize that that doesn't intersect in a way that makes it exclusive

from whether or not my dad loves me. And my dad absolutely took good care of me. And he did love, he does love me. You can love something and also be like, that's a choice I would not make again. But would you, that's something I think that you can hear as an adult. Yeah.

But it's harder to hear, I think, probably a lot harder to hear and understand as a child. It is, but- And I think that that's, that's I think where the disconnect might be. It might be fine to have that conversation with your dad now as an adult, but it might be a very different story if you were five or six or even 10.

I think so too, but I guess I'm saying it's made harder for everybody because the kids are seeing the same tropes. The kids are seeing the same messaging. They're swimming in the same soup that tells them that of course parents love doing this. There's no other messaging where parents on TV and books and movies and culture,

that everywhere, every parent they ever see loves being a parent. So if their parents like, yeah, you know, sometimes this is really hard. They're gonna be like, fuck, it's really hard because of me. Because every message I see says that my parents should love this.

I think if the messaging were more complex around parenting and more openly culturally complex around parenting, I actually think it would stem some of that damage. I think it would make, because you know, part of what these articles, all three of them really touch on too, is like for some parents, they can't hide it.

They don't hide it. Like when parents have kids that they didn't wanna have, very often the results of that parenting are not excellent. You know, because for some people, they're not able to put on that facade of I am doing okay. Some people are like, yeah, I'm not doing okay. This really hurts something deep inside of me. Or like financially, kids are like

fucking back-breakingly expensive in a way that like is kind of shocking and difficult to recover from. And again, in an economy with no social safety nets like our own, particularly, you know, raising kids in a society that, you know, doesn't offer, you know, any childcare subsidies at all, or any paid family leave at all, you know, like, and again, in a nuclear family culture,

where you also may not have any broader extended family support, it's like, fuck the financial constraints of that can be absolutely mind boggling. So like, I just think that it's important to have these conversations to start turning that narrative into something more honest and more complex. Because I think it's less damaging if kids hear it. Because they'll be like, yeah, some moms and dads

struggle with being moms and dads, but those moms and dads still love us. Kids can understand stuff like that, but only if it's the rule and not the exception. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think that is, one of the things that they touch on on some of these articles is when they talk about how people have kids to try to help the situation that they're in. They're in a bad situation maybe with their marriage

or other times and then they have a kid thinking that it's going to solidify stuff. And I think too, a lot of times people misunderstand and think that kids are a glue that will bring everything together, but kids just change things. I've never had kids, but I've seen relationships change drastically with people around me that have had children. It changes the dynamic almost completely

between what that couple was before and what that couple is now. It's not the same thing. No, it's not. And it's like, it's such a crazy thing to say like, all right, we're gonna, you know, our relationship is struggling. So we're gonna add kids.

So we're gonna add less time with each other, less time and ability to spend attention on each other, sleep deprivation and financial stress to the situation. That'll fix it. Let's just do all the stack it all on there. And then like additional work that may or may not be distributed evenly or equitably I should say,

because evenly is bad, but equitably. Like it's not a recipe for fixing any. It really isn't. It really isn't. It's a really unstable situation to add, like to add that to an unstable situation is not, it's not a net good. It's a really bad, but it is something that happens a lot.

Happens all the time. And the other thing that I think, as I read through these, the one thing that popped into my head the most was, you know, they say, if you're, you're never gonna have kids if you're always waiting for that moment to have kids, right, they always say that sort of thing. Like if you're planning it and you just,

you know you're just planning it and you're never ever gonna feel like you're ready, et cetera, that's okay. That's okay if you never feel ready to actually pull the trigger. Then that means, guess what? You were never ready to pull the trigger. That's what that means.

That doesn't mean there's this weird thing that we, the sort of, it's like a piece of old wives' tale or whatever, you know, it's this folklore that we've built around parenthood that, you know what? You just gotta jump in feet first. Don't be ready. Just jump in feet first. And you think, no, that's a terrible idea.

If you can like center your world around that child, that child's gonna have a much better chance than if you just willy-nilly that. I mean, there's a couple that we know that they were for many years child-free. Many years they were together for, gosh, they had to be together almost 15 years before they had a child. And then they had a child. They made sure they were in the right position before they had that child. They did all the fun stuff they wanted to do ahead of time. They were traveling, doing all kinds of, and then they settled down and decided to have that kid. And that was their decision to do that. And that child is well taken care of.

They're both very secure in their jobs. All that stuff all mattered. That planning mattered. And to do just the opposite of that, but like, well, you'll never do it if you don't just do it. And you're like, no, man, that's terrible fucking advice. Terrible advice, absolutely terrible advice.

But it's common. It's common advice. It's the most common thing that you hear is like, well, if you wait until everything lines up just right, you'll never have kids. And it's like, then let's let that be a socially acceptable option. Then let's let it be a socially acceptable option and be like, yeah, maybe we just don't all have kids.

I also think, you know, like there's this thing, and I've thought about this forever, like where people say, like, oh, you know, I'm like, my whole life is focused on my kids. Like everything I do, my whole life, my, all my time and energy and intellectual and financial space is all given over toward like rearing these kids. And it's like, all right, and then they're going to turn into these great people. Really? And what are they going to do? Well, they're going to have kids. What are they going to do? They're going to spend all their time and energy turning out more kids.

Who, if you keep doing that, ever really gets to live their life very fully? Do you know what I mean? Sure. If my whole life is subsumed into this role of parenthood, then like I don't ever get an opportunity. There's no generational opportunity to be like, all right, well, let's see what the fruit of that labor can create. The fruit of that labor, because if the fruit of that labor simply creates somebody else who will pour all of their time and energy into having kids, who will grow up to pour all of their time and energy into having kids,

like, what, like, there's, there's, at some point, it's okay to be like, hey, for this generation, for me, not for everybody, it's not proscriptive, I'm gonna spend all my time and energy on me. And I'm gonna see how far I can take this experiment of self-improvement. The debt traditionally was the man though. So like traditionally, if you look back, that was the man who was still providing and then

going to do like fulfill themselves. And the woman was the one stuck doing the work. So that's true. So it was, it wasn't like, you know, just a few minutes ago, you said it should be equitable, right? Right. It wasn't. Right you know, just a few minutes ago, you said it should be equitable, right? It wasn't. And that's how the tradition was. And so for centuries, that's how it was,

is that the guy just, I got to live my life and then she got to raise the kids. And that's basically what happened. And now that I think people see that they want it to be more equitable, but they also see that that's a drain on everybody, right? It's a drain. It's not just a drain on you. It's a drain on your significant other too.

And then you're like, well, neither of us are enjoying this at all. And then I think, I think too, you know, it's important that people tell other people, especially people that don't have kids, that it's not great, right? Sometimes it's not great. And this has challenged my marriage, or this has done, it's ruined me in this way, or it's been difficult in this way.

I can't tell you how many times people have confided in me that they regret having children. Many, many people have confided it, because I'm not a, I'm child free. So in their mind, they're like, well, you know, that maybe they wouldn't say that around somebody else because it might make them feel like less of a parent. Right. But for me, it doesn't matter. Right. I'm not part of that. I'm not in your race. I never even signed up for it. So I'm not in it. So you can tell me whatever you want. And then a

lot of ways people will confide that in me. But there's a, there is this, this thing like people don't tell anyone else around them that it's not amazing all the time. And again, we're perpetuating this myth of it being awesome. Yeah, and like, I think part of the reason that people confide in you and they don't confide in other parents is that parenting can be very toxically competitive.

Like there are a lot of parents that are very toxically competitive with other parents because there's this idea that we want to be seen. If parenting is going to be held up as this social good and this like cultural good, then like you can then be good or bad at doing it. And so we want to be seen as being good at this thing that society values. And so that creates a kind of competitiveness. And so if you confide to somebody that like, hey, you know what, like, I really wish I hadn't done this. For me, this was not the best thing for my emotional health

or my mental health or my financial health or my relational health. Like this is not actually like, I don't feel passionately up to this task. You know, like, then like saying that would put you in this really vulnerable space where culturally we're supposed to be a little more competitive about it. And like, you can see that in the way parents

brag about their kids. Oh, my kids are already reading at the fourth grade level. My kids, they see the stickers on the back of their cars. I mean, I got a felon or whatever. Yeah, right. You hear it all the time, like, oh, my kids, my kids are already testing at the college level. And you're like, who fucking cares?

Why does that matter to anybody? It literally doesn't matter to anybody. It doesn't even matter to your kid. Like all the research shows, that's nothing. Like all that shit evens out and doesn't matter. But we all know that. Like we all know that. Cause we all know every gifted person that you've ever met

turns into mostly just everybody, right? Most people will not turn out to be extraordinary. Most people will turn out to be that guy that you know. Just how it works. But like when we're parenting, because it's something that's socially valued and it can be done well or done poorly, we're very, very competitive about it.

We use our kids as the benchmark for our success. So I think parents are really reluctant to expose that vulnerability in that really poisonous and toxic competitive space. I'll be happy to say, and I know my kids don't listen to anything I ever have recorded ever, but I do regret having kids. And I-

You've said that before on the show. I have. I do regret having kids. And there are actually a lot of reasons why I regret having kids, Like, and I said that before. I have. I do regret having kids. And there are actually a lot of reasons why I regret having kids. But a big part of it is not what's touched on in these articles. Part of the reason that I regret having kids,

a significant part now is like, I am very worried that the future that they will go into will be a future that somebody that I love, I don't want them to have to endure. Sure. I look at the future, I tell my kids openly and strongly and repetitively, and we have real conversations

because they're teenagers now, that they absolutely should not have kids. Donovan is turning 18, he wants a vasectomy. Illinois, you can't get one until you're 21. We're the only state, we're the only state you can't get one until you're 21. Smart to get early though. Smart, he wants one right away. I was like, if I'll drive you over the board, we'll get one in Wisconsin.

I think there's a legitimate reason to look at the world and say, all right, well, it's 2024. And if the average lifespan is, call it 75, 80 years, what do I really think the world is going to look like and feel like and be like in 2100, 2105? What does the science say? Doesn't look good, right? Outlook not so good. I shake that magic eight ball, I don't like what comes up. That's not somebody I would be like,

I will lovingly create somebody that is deeply important to me so they can endure that while I can no longer protect them. That seems like something that makes me feel like a deep sense of personal regret, like a deep sense of personal regret. Cause it's like, all right, I love you. Sorry.

Enjoy the world that's getting worse all the time. Every year is worse than the last year. I can't protect you from any of this stuff and it's all going to shit. It's all going to hell in a hand basket and I don't have a lot of hope for your future. Anyway, anyway, I love you though. Someone sent us a message maybe three or four weeks ago and they said, because we were talking about climate change and they said to, you know, one of the things that you should mention

on your show about climate change is that, you know, the more you go meatless, the more chance you have of doing less harm to the environment. Sure. The less meat... Meat eats grass and then you have to eat the meat and that's a whole other step and it produces waste and methane, etc., etc. It's bad for the environment to eat meat. It's bad for the environment.

And they said you should mention that and I just did. So there you go. I just mentioned that. And I just did. So there you go. I just mentioned that. And I agree. I do agree with you. I try to be, I try to focus on eating less meat as time goes on. I'm eating less and less. I'm focusing more and more on eating meat free stuff and exploring different cuisines

and things like that. But one of the other ways to make sure that your carbon footprint is small is to not have kids. I mean, that's a great way to make sure your carbon, not eating meat is great, but not having a kid is way bigger. Like way, way, way bigger. Not having a kid is a step in the right direction for climate change, for sure. Is there anything else you don't,

I mean, that's something clearly, but there's gotta be other reasons. I mean, clearly you- Yeah, I didn't wanna have kids in the first place. And that's, I think the big thing is, is like, there's a lot of people in the world, like we were talking about earlier, sometimes you just had a kid.

Yeah, well, you know, like, it's not really touched on in this article too much, but it's something I thought of when I was reading it, is that like, we live in a world which is rightfully like, it's her body, her choice. So, you know, if somebody gets impregnated, if you're a guy, you know, it's not a choice you get to make if there's a mistake, right?

If there's an accident, you know, with birth control, that choice is no longer your choice. Like that is her body, it is her choice. That is the correct answer and the correct decision. But it does mean that like for myself raising my hand, I didn't wanna have kids. And then we had a mistake and I had a kid. And if it was my body to make that choice,

I'd have been like, great, I'm gonna go get an abortion, right? If I was impregnated, I'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna go get an abortion. But that's not an option that I have, right? So it's like, okay, well now I'm gonna go get an abortion, right? If I was impregnated, I'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna go get an abortion. But that's not an option that I have, right? So it's like, okay, well now I'm just gonna do what I felt like was the right thing, right? Sure, sure.

And so, but that's not really the reason I regret having kids. The reason I regret having kids is, it has been, at many times in my life, it has been financially extremely difficult. It has been very difficult for me to, like I had to work a job for many, many years that I hated very, very much

in order to provide for my family. And like those were lost years of my life. Like that's a decade and a half of my life, my personal life, myself, my growth, my interests, my health that like I just sacrificed. Like I just was working a terrible job, working health, that I just sacrificed. I just was working a terrible job, working many, many, many hours. So many hours.

And I hated it. And it was stressful and it was difficult and it was not fun, it was not good for me. And that's something I would not have had to do if I didn't have a family to provide for. That I would have had more options. I would have been able to say, all right, I'm quitting.

And like, I'll just have to worry about what that means for me. You know, I can figure out like, I can handle a certain amount of deprivation because that's my choice, but I can't put other people through deprivation or to save myself discomfort, that's wrong. So like, yeah, there's parts of my life that I look at,

I'm like, fuck, that was 15, 20 years. You know, that I'm just like, well, that sucked. I can't ever have that back. That's my youth. It is though. No, it really is. It really is. And it's like, all right, well, when did,

did you have any fun? No, not for a really long time. Not for that long time, yeah. I remember that time in your life, you were working like a dog for a long time. And it super sucked. And it sucked, yeah. So I never got a lot of pressure to have children.

That wasn't, not a ton. I didn't have any pressure. Not a ton. But my wife got some. Even when she was younger, like much younger, like when she was a teenager, her grandma had said something about it, and my wife said she didn't wanna have kids.

And her grandma was just absolutely just blown away and very upset by the fact that she wasn't gonna have children and she said, that is so selfish. And Sarah said, well, I know I don't want them. So it's actually not selfish. It's the opposite of that because I would treat them badly. That seems like a bad call to have a kid that you're not gonna want.

So I actually think it's the opposite of selfish. And when we first got married, there was like some inkling pressure, and you get pressure from all different places. People will be like, yeah, you're gonna have kids, you're gonna have kids, you're gonna have, my in-laws all the time would say stuff like that. And then, you know, I think Sarah and I just kinda were like,

I think I kinda always thought I would. There was always a thought that I would, because it just was a natural thing to do. But as time went on, I remember just more and more conversations with her. And we had a couple of conversations about like, what would we do if we had a kid? You know, there were never, we should have a kid.

It was always, what would happen if we had a kid? And then those conversations turned into, I don't really wanna do that. And then she was like, I don't wanna do that either. And I remember right after that, very soon after that, we sold our house near people that were possibly gonna be the daycare for us. We had moved out very specifically close to people

that would have been the daycare if we were to have kids. And then after we decided we weren't, we're like, what are we doing here? And then we just moved back to the city and stayed in Chicago. We're like, no, we're going to live in Chicago. And I remember it was within a month of me moving back to Chicago out of a vasectomy. It was like a month. I was like, yeah, you know what I should do? I should go get a vasectomy. Because we're never doing this and let's just get it done. Let's get that all fixed up. Cause I remember very specifically,

there was sort of a feeling and it's the gentle pressure. There's a gentle pressure all your life that you're gonna have kids, you should have kids, oh, you're gonna have kids or whatever. And all throughout my young life, it never occurred to me that I wouldn't. And then the moment shows up and you're gonna have kids or whatever. And all throughout my young life, it never occurred to me that I wouldn't. Right. And then the moment shows up and you're like,

no, I kind of don't wanna do this. And there's more and more people now, they're talking about this in this article too, they're saying that it's not that there's just more people not having children, but there's a bunch more people now that are regretting it. More people nowadays are regretting it than before. Well, I think part of that reason you touched on before

is that is a gendered reason. I think women now have an opportunity to live full, rich lives in engaging in society, educationally, financially, in the workplace, socially, in ways that were never possible before. And if that's the alternative, and you look at that and you're like,

well, it's either that or I can get, kind of like, honestly, like locked down by kids. The reality is that most of America doesn't make a lot of money. And kids are fantastically expensive. And childcare can easily eclipse the entirety of somebody's entire salary. And so like there's a lot of families where people will be like, well, that doesn't make

any sense. And then they pull themselves out of the workforce and then their resume becomes dated. It becomes harder for them to reenter the workforce. There's a terrible vicious cycle to all of this that women have for many years born a terrible brunt for that, that choice to have kids, right? Or that social expectation to have kids. And now I think there's a little bit more acceptability and like knowledge of options

and like recognition of like choices here. And I think as soon as you see that, it's like, well, shit, that looks good. And then your friend does it, right? So then like the regret piece, like then your friend makes that choice not to have any kids and they're not broke all the time. And their relationship isn't in tatters

and they're sleeping eight hours a day. And you're like, well, fuck, that looks pretty good. Because it is. And none of that is to say that like, like there are things that many people deeply, to your point before, deeply enjoy about having kids. I don't want to sound like I'm negating all of those either. I have enjoyed many parts of being a parent.

I'm somebody who does find a lot of fulfillment in providing for other people. And a lot of like, if not joy, pride and satisfaction in being somebody that can be relied upon. Like that's just something that I happen to like, just get a sense of pride and fulfillment from. But I also look around and I'm like, Jesus Christ, all the things I didn't do, you know?

And like that, I think that that is more visible now than it ever was before. And comparing things is a way for us to like relate our own relate to other experiences you see this too in social circles when one person gets divorced very often other people will trickle down get divorced too in social circles I think the same is true with parenting where it's like well that that one couple that we all knew didn't have kids and you look and they're like well now there's more regret in that social circle because there's something to compare it to.

There's an option that you can see that maybe wasn't as socially visible as before. The only people that ever told me I'd regret it are people who had kids. I never have once ever heard from a single person who's been child free that has told me that I'd regret it. Well, and the science says- Not one time. There's never been a person who is older than me, who's like, you know, lived their life and spent their life and never had children. And then they're looking back and they're like, man, you're making a huge mistake. I've never heard a single person say that.

The only people who have ever told me I would regret it. And I've been told I'd regret it by a lot of people. Those people are all with children. Those people all had kids. Yeah, wow. And I think, to be honest, they lived a life and had a different experience than I did, and maybe they wanted to share that experience with me. So to their credit, they're not being shitty.

No, I don't think so. They're saying, this is an experience that I think you will miss out on if you don't experience it. But what they don't understand is that I never experienced it. So I don't feel any FOMO, man. I don't at all. Like, I don't care.

Like, I have plenty of fulfillment in my life. I don't need it. I just don't need it. And I think they didn't understand that. Well, and there's like, I also think it's, and this article really goes to great pains to pull it out. And I guess it's really worth saying to me as a parent who has regrets,

like the fact that you have regrets is an entirely mutually exclusive walled off space from whether or not you love your kids and whether or not you like your kids. And like, I love my kids and I like my kids and they're incredibly important to me. And I have had many, many, many moments of like real fun and like a real sense of pride and satisfaction

and a deep desire to do it well. And all of that can exist at the same time. And you're like, yeah, but if I had an intentional do-over, I would make a different choice. Because I think for me, for who I am personally, intentional do over, I would make a different choice. Because I think for me, for who I am personally, I would have thrived more personally without having kids. And I think both of those things,

they're not mutually exclusive. They can both exist. But I think a lot of people look at them as if like, well, if you regret having kids, you don't love your kids. And it's like, no, it has nothing to do with that. They literally don't have, those. And it's like, no, it has nothing to do, they literally don't, those are two entirely separate emotional conversations. Like, that's a dumb, it's actually a really dumb way

and over-simplified way to look at things. And there's no real reason to do that. One of the things that they talk about is how more people are regretting it. There's the numbers going up. And one of the things- Especially after 2020. One of the things that occur, they talk about burnout.

Yeah. So one of the things they talk about is burnout. And it occurred to me that parents nowadays, and I'm gonna sound so old when I say this, God, I'm sorry, I apologize. But genuinely, I think parents do so much more for their children now and do like jobs and things that for their kids that never was done as a child when I was a child. Like I think about, I think about very in specific, I lived about a mile and a half

from school and I walked to school, I was six years old, and I walked to school every day. Every day, walked to school and walked home. It was raining, well, get an umbrella, wear a slicker. If it's snowing, wear your snow boots. Get dressed up, gotta go to school. There wasn't any line of cars. I didn't have to schedule that into my,

the parents didn't have to schedule picking up your kid after school. There was just, that's where the school was and that's where the kid went. And there's a line in this story where the person said, instead after electing to be a stay at home mother, Robin found herself in what she calls a domestic gulag, a life that consisted of chauffeur, an arranger,

an appointment setter, a social secretary, a party planner, a chef, a meal planner, a budgeter, an emergency nurse, a night nurse, a psychologist, and a confidant. And I thought, you know, my parents certainly played some of those roles, right? Those roles are universal in some, but many of those roles, they did not play at all.

They never took part in any of that stuff. I was, I was, you know, I mean, there was a part of my life where my parents, they both worked. And so I would come home and then just be home by myself at like 10, 10, 10, or maybe 11, I was 10 or 11. And I would just come home and just be by myself at like 10, maybe 11, I was 10 or 11. And I would just come home and just be by myself. And like, that was a very normal thing.

Very normal. For a kid, and it feels like what happened is, for a lot of parents, at least as an outside observer, that parenting became more and more of a, like they say, like a scheduler, like you're doing play dates and driving and constantly sort of, there's a lot more helicopter ring that's going on. And there's an infinite amount of it

if you want it to be an infinite amount of it. And you're exactly right. I think when we were younger and in generations prior to us, the idea of parenting has changed and evolved in a way that like creates for many people almost outlandish, outsized sense of like minute by minute responsibilities.

But I want to react to something in there as well. Cause I totally agree with that. And like that can cause an enormous amount of burnout for people. It can be exhausting. I want to just interrupt really quickly. One of the things I mentioned to Sarah today was I was saying, I was telling her when I was younger,

it wouldn't be anything to see a kid ride by on our street on their bike at six years old. That wouldn't have been anything. Would be nothing. If I saw a child today by themselves at six at a park, that someone might call the police. In some places. That's a very different world it is

and it's only 30 years yeah 30 years maybe and i don't know which world is better i don't want to even like opine on which world is better because i don't know but like i will also suggest that like there have been there have been multiple times in my life where i've done all that work. I've been the primary caregiver for kids at the same time that I've done a lot of the working. And like all those things are true. But like, most of the problem with that is not that it's so much work. It's that the work is boring. It's really fucking boring. Because like, like there's kind of like a, like it's trying to get cute with it. It's like, oh you have to be a chef. Well you're not a chef. Like a chef is making very high,

like a chef is making very high quality food off a menu to order. Like that's not the same thing as making dinner on a Wednesday. It's just not. You know? Like making dinner for a family on a Wednesday is just kind of boring day to day work. I'd throw Chef out anyway because you got to make food for yourself, period. So it's like, that's a dumb thing to even mention. And that's like, it's so like a lot of that stuff, like I've done this stuff. Like I have done an enormous amount of the primary caregiver work. And again, I've done it and my dad did it, he was a single dad.

I've done it at the same time that I've been working full time, sometimes more than one job. And it's like, yeah, like the problem isn't that that is such a voluminous amount of work, it's that the work is unfulfilling, it's boring. It doesn't like you, like kids don't often, like especially little kids, they just take,

they don't say thank you, they don't seem grateful. It takes a long time to build empathy. Like the work doesn't really, you don't get anything out of having it done. Do you do all this work? You schedule their doctor's appointment, take them to the doctor. It's like, okay, well, that wasn't hard.

Like it's not, it doesn't take even a lot of brain space. You put it in your calendar, you show you, go drive to the doctor, you do it. I've done it a million times. But like, it's just that it's boring. A lot of the work of being a parent is fucking boring. Playing with kids when they're little is repetitive and boring. They show it on TV and the kids are always doing fun, ultra creative shit. And it's like, no, a lot of times they're like dropping a spoon on the floor 47 times.

Or they're, you know, playing with like the same Thomas the Tank Engine toy in the same repetitive way over and over and over again, as their mind builds this sort of developmental You know playing with like the same Thomas the Tank Engine toy in the same repetitive Way over and over and over again as their mind builds this sort of developmental pattern a lot of parenting It's just fucking boring and they'd ever tell you that part like that sure so like a lot of the burnout I think my experience of having done it now for almost 18 years is not that it's so difficult Or even like voluminous., is not that it's so difficult or even voluminous. It's just that it's tedious. Oh, interesting. It's just fucking boring.

It's interesting. Because it's funny, because I look at people I know that have kids and I think they'll tell me that they're doing something. They're like, oh, I have to do this and this and this and this, and they'll mention four or five things that they're doing. And I'll think, you do all that for your kid?

Like it's just like it doesn't make any sense. I'm like, well, when they just like do some of that on the way, like I'm right there and it blows me away. I'm like, wouldn't you just like, wouldn't the kid just do that? Like, I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I like had to make my own food or, you know, I mean, there's a, and I got, I know I sound like a boomer and I apologize. I'm sorry. I know I realize that I hear it coming out of me.

But I also recognize too, that there is something that you have to, there's a balance I think to, I'm not apparent, but I recognize, I think I understand enough about it to recognize that the balance is taking care of this small thing to help it grow, but then also to help it be independent. Right? And it feels like there's a lot of less of the independent stuff that you would have done as a child to become more

independent. Maybe I'm missing it. I don't know. I think generally speaking, you're responding to something that I think has shifted culturally. Certainly my experience of being a parent is I do a lot more for my kids than my dad did for me. My dad, again, single dad, not a lot of time. Not a lot. Babysitters took care of us for a lot of our lives growing up.

But like, dad was not like a sit and play with you kind of guy. Like dad was not gonna get on the floor and play toys of guy. Like dad was not going to get on the floor and play toys with you. That's kind of expected now out of parents is to sit and play with them in these sort of imaginative and toy based ways, or like, you know, like making them food that they want special instead of just, hey, dinner is what dinner is.

That's how it was when I was growing up. But I think like, you know, a lot of the research has like kind of shifted that, you know, maybe the way we were parented wasn't optimal. Sure, yeah. And like, I think there's a lot more people parenting in a more research oriented way, in a more data driven kind of way,

a more like, what does the science say about how to achieve the best results way? And I say all that at the same time that part of me doesn't believe it. But there's a part of me too that says maybe that's why more people are frustrated, because they're doing so much more than their parents were. And maybe that's why that generation wasn't as frustrated about being a parent, because they were kind of letting some things happen on their own.

Yeah. And not micromanaging every second of that child's life. Instead they were like, yeah, you know what? I'm gonna drink a beer and watch the game. Go play with your pop-up thing. Yeah, right. And like, there was a lot of my life that was like, dad was like, bears are on, go upstairs. You know what I mean?

Like, and that was, and then you just learn like, okay, I can't play downstairs at this. So there's like, it clearly, my parents carved things out of their life. Right. We didn't carve our time into there. And I say this and I realize how I sound. I'm sorry. I realize how I sound because I sound like kids these days and I don't want to sound like that because I'm not a parent. I know you're not. And I don't know. I don't even think that that's your point. Yeah. But I recognize that like my parents carved out those things and wouldn't, there

was a point where they pushed back and be like, do this. You do this now. This is you. This isn't me helping you. This is you figuring out you. Yeah. Well, I think that there's a huge and I think genuinely, and I know we're kind of diverting now, but I think there's like a mistaken emphasis now

on trying to create this sort of like optimal human being. Right? Like we want to avoid all these terrible mistakes that we know were made in the past. And some of them were terrible, right? Like spanking kids, that was no good, right? Like, you know, the research is pretty clear that like, the way that like I was raised, you know,

I think you were as well, like where there's like too much distance, too much independence can create, you know, some really troublesome behaviors like leads, like drug use is way down from when we were kids, alcohol use is way down, team pregnancies are way down from when we were kids. Like, so a lot of those things have- I was pregnant as a kid.

Well, it doesn't show. A lot of those- I got stretch marks. Yeah, all right, all right. They're beautiful. But like, you know, so like in a lot of ways, like those really important metrics really are improved dramatically

by changing the way that we paint. And I think that that's true. I also think that it can go way too far. And it sometimes does, where, you know, a desire for independence is not a part of people's agenda while they're parenting. And then if that's the case, like you're going to create dependent people that will live in your house forever.

And like, how does that burnout not happen? Adults, yeah. Like how does that burnout not happen? I know. And like, you know, I think that that's, that's a real risk that you run. I think that the failure to launch ice is something that like really can be a result of sort of swinging too hard in the opposite direction. Yeah.

But part of it too is like, we don't increasingly, we are more siloed as families than ever before. We are not as connected with extended family. We don't have a broader like support base. We are less connected to our parents, to our brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles. So like all of that pressure is just on you. There's nowhere to put it. That's very different. Like my wife's family is really close you. It's all on you, yeah. And there's nowhere to put it. That's very different. Like my wife's family is really close, right? They're all real close.

And they spend a lot of time with grandma. They spend a lot of time with aunts and uncles. And they spend a lot of time. And also just like grandma watched them a lot, you know? And that was sort of a thing that happened. I didn't have a family like that. It was all real. Same, yeah. It's a very pressure on one group.

I wanna touch on one thing before we quit. I wanna talk about another piece of the different article where they're talking about children that are maybe disabled or in some ways a different child, right? Not a, and I don't know what to say. I don't know what the wording is, but you know, like an autistic child or something like that, right?

Everybody thinks they're gonna have a kid and the kid is gonna be, you know, a kid that's, you know, perfect because that's the story that they were told. But sometimes kids aren't perfect and they can be very... There's one story in here that's so heartbreaking because the person genuinely doesn't like their child because their child is so disruptive to their life. They're, you know, they hate everything around them and they're destructive and they're terrible children, et cetera.

And they're expressing this moment in their life where they're like, fuck, this is terrible. I regret every piece of this. And I think one of the things that people don't expect is that the child that they have isn't gonna be perfect. They expect, there's a lot of expectation around that, that the child's gonna be perfect. And I think many times in the conversations we've had,

you've never experienced, you've always said like, you have no idea what that kid's gonna grow up to be. You've said that from the very beginning. I'm terrified of it. I'm keenly aware that like, it's a dice roll, man. And I'm like, I'm also aware that you could have a kid that you don't like or that doesn't like you. We never talk about this stuff, but it happens.

We all know people that don't like their parents. What amazes me so much is that we forget that every person came from and was a child. That children are not a different category of person. They're just a part of the lifespan of all human beings. But we think of them as separate. We think of them like kids, like they're a separate thing. But they're not a separate thing.

They're just a moment in the lifespan of all people. Which means that, like, if you know somebody who's like, my kid's an asshole, that's somebody who's got a kid that may have always been an asshole. Yeah. It also like, it's also true that we're going to spend most of the time that we have with our kids as adults. We will both be adults together for most of the life that we spend with our kids. And like, if you have a person in your life that you don't like, or that doesn't like you back, that can cause a terrible amount of heartache. We forget all that somehow,

because, and I think the how somehow is kind of going back to like what I'd said at the beginning is that we've built a cultural narrative that shows a sea of healthy, happy, smiling faces that all have the same interests and look like you, and they all wanna go sledding, and it's gonna be so much fun, wah! And it's like, oh shit, what if my kid is someone

I don't like? Or what if my kid is somebody who is disabled in a way that challenges me deeply to support them in the way that they need to be supported without hurting me in ways that I don't wanna be hurt? These are truths about having kids that we never really take the time to consider. And I think that part of that is that we're clouded

by that biological imperative. I think that there's like hormonal and other socio-cultural issues that sort of tell us that this is what we're supposed to do, propagate the species, propagate the species, you know? And so we don't want to look too carefully and too logically at this, but it's a truth. It's a real hard truth.

My mom can't be happy with her relationship with me. Sure. Right? I don't like her. I don't talk to her. I haven't talked to her in 20 some years. That may hurt her feelings deeply. I don't know. Like we don't have a relationship,

but that's a truth that she had a child and raised a child and that she and that child are now estranged forever. And that's a truth she as a parent has to have. Sure, sure. So I don't think we think about that enough in our sort of examination of what it means to be parents. Yeah, I, I, I also think like,

I don't know if this is gonna go on the show, but I also think like, I don't know if this is gonna go on the show, but I also think like people that have children that might be disabled, they can't ever say anything bad ever. They can never really say, this is tough. This is hard for me. This is hard. Once in a while you'll hear somebody say it, but it's rare when you hear somebody who really is,

you know, having to deal with a child that's difficult and disabled in some way, and they have to take care of that child more than they would have to take care of any other child. And they have to put on a bright face. There's nothing that they can't be more so than anyone else. Like you could have a very gifted child and be bitching about it and people wouldn't be upset.

But if you have a child that is disabled in some way and you bitch about it, that really brings your parent cred down. Yeah, it does. And that's really cruel. It's really, that's a terrible cruelty. And I'm glad you said that, because that's really true. And like really, that's a terrible cruelty. And I'm glad you said that, because that's really true.

And like, again, it flies in the face of what we're told to expect. What we are, we're told to sort of expect a norm, a kind of like, you know, statistical norm. And then there's gonna be all these parents and people, human beings, who have to now build relationships on the outskirts of the norms, on the, in these spaces that don't fit that center.

And it can be really, really hard for those people. And they're not allowed to bitch about it. And they're not allowed to say, God, I didn't want to sign up for this for life. I thought I was signing up for raising somebody into adulthood and then turning them loose into the world to become independent. And like, we also never think that like,

even our perfectly, you know, well adjusted, healthy children could have something terrible happen to them to render them permanently disabled and to create for us a lifelong obligation that maybe we didn't want, just bluntly did not want. I am happily raising two kids and two step kids. And I'm happy to take on that responsibility because it is my responsibility.

And I wanna discharge that responsibility. And I wanna do a good job. And I want those kids to feel loved and valued and appreciated. And I do love them and I do value them and I do appreciate them. But I also at some point want them all to become independent human adults

and to move on in their lives. And then I want us to have a different kind of relationship and connection. There's no guarantee that that happens. Yeah, there isn't. There's no guarantee that that's what's gonna happen. Even though that's the way it's trending right now, shit can happen at any moment.

We kind of never talk about that shit. So there's a lot of people, parents I think, who feel incredibly invisible because they can't express those feelings. They have nowhere to put them. I wanna say though too, you know that sense of pride you feel, you know, taking care of your kids. I imagine that someone who has to take care of a child

that is very difficult to take care of, they probably feel an immense sense of pride at being able to take care of that child. Doing so much for them, that probably is an amazing, so I wanna make sure to mention too, that there might be some people who might not like it, but there probably are people out there that absolutely that builds them and that makes them thrive. So I don't want to say like, I don't want to paint it as if somebody had a kid that

is difficult and now that like, it always sucks for everybody. I don't want to paint it like that. I want to make sure to mention that I know for sure there are people out there that that is, that is, you know, like how there are people who say parenting will change your life. To them, that is the pinnacle of being a parent and it is, you know, amazing.

And for them, they can't say better things about it. They love it. Yeah, that's really important because Cecil and I are talking about specifically and intentionally about this article which deals with regret. So we're talking about the negative, not to exclude the reality of your positive experience. So if you're a listener who has a disabled person

in your care or a difficult child, and you feel still a sense of real satisfaction and love, we're not saying that that's- You should feel something different. Yeah, so I wanna be, I'm right there with you. Like we are speaking specifically to an experience that I think has been told to us should be culturally less visible.

And so I think we wanna like give that voice because that's the article. Yeah, and we wanna normalize that in some way because we wanna make sure that people understand that it's okay to have that sort of regret and to live with that regret, but then also live with loving your kids in the same place. You know, that that's okay, that those two things can,

they don't have to be mutually exclusive. They can both live in the same person and that's okay too. 100%. All right, that's gonna wrap it up for this Thursday episode. Come back Monday and we're gonna have a full episode for you, but we're gonna leave you, like we always do, with the Skeptic's Creed. Credulity is not a virtue.

It's fortune cookie cutter, mommy issue, hypno Babylon bullshit. Couched in scientician double bubble toil and Toil and Trouble, Pseudo-Quasi-Alternative, Acupuncturating, Pressurized, Stereogram, Pyramidal, Free Energy, Healing, Water, Downward Spiral, Brain Dead, Pan, Sales Pitch, Late Night Info, Docutainment, Leo Pisces, Cancer Cures, Detox, Reflex, Foot Massage, Death in Towers, Tarot Cards, Psychic Healing, Crystal Balls, Bigfoot, Yeti, Aliens, Churches, Mosques, and Synagogues, Temples, Dragons, Giant Worms, Atlantis, Dolphins, Truthers, Birthers, Witches, Wizards, Nuts, Shaman Healers, Evangelists, Conspiracy, Double-Speak, Stigmata, Nonsense. speak stigmata nonsense. Expose your sides. Thrust your hands. Bloody, evidential, conclusive.

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