Cognitive Dissonance - Episode 851: The Know Rogan Experience - Michael Marshall

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

Discover the magic of Bad MGM Casino, where the excitement is always on deck! Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer! From Roulette to Blackjack, watch as a dealer hosts your table game and live chat with them throughout your experience to feel like you're actually at the casino! The excitement doesn't stop there, with over 3,000 games to choose from, including fan favorites like Cash Eruption, UFC Gold Blitz, and more! Make deposits instantly to jump in on the fun, and make same-day withdrawals if you win!

Download the BetMGM Ontario app today! You don't want to miss out! Visit betmgm.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager, Ontario only, please gamble responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you Please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge Bet MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario This podcast is supported by the real real meet Christine. She loves shopping and this Is the sound of fashion overload too many many fabulous things, not enough space.

So Christine started selling with the RealReal. I've always loved collecting designer pieces. Gucci bags, Prada heels. But my style keeps evolving. Selling with the RealReal, game changer. I earn more and they do everything. Seriously, just drop off your items or schedule a pickup. We handle the photos, descriptions, pricing, even shipping.

You just sit back and watch your items sell, fast, to our 38 million members. And I get peace of mind knowing I earn more selling with the RealReal than anywhere else. Exactly. This? That's the sound of your closet working for you. The RealReal. Earn more, save time, sell fast. And right now, you can get an extra $100 site credit when you sell for the first time. Go to therealreal.com to get your extra $100. Therealreal.com. That's therealreal.com.

This episode of Cognitive Dissonance is brought to you by our patrons. You fucking rock. Be advised that this show is not for children, the faint of heart, or the easily offended. Recording live, but way in advance from Glorial Studios in Chicago and beyond, this is Cognitive Dissonance. Every episode we blast anyone who gets in our way. We bring critical thinking, skepticism, and irreverence to any topic that makes the news, makes it big or makes us mad. It's skeptical, it's political, and there is no welcome mad today. It doesn't matter what day it is.

We are recording way in advance. We've got Marsh here as a guest We're very excited. Marsh is a great guy We're doing a little show banking Cecil so we can get a little break take a little time off get a little time off So I do another show with Marsh called the no Rogan experience and Marsh is gonna join us And we're gonna talk about that and we're also to talk about the conference that they put on QED, which is in the MercySide skeptics put it on. And we're going to talk about that too. Um, so why don't we just jump right into it? This is our recording with, uh,

Michael Marshall from the NoRogan Experience. Michael Marshall, thank you for joining us on the show. We really appreciate you showing up. It's a pleasure to be here always nice to catch up with you Cecil we don't talk often enough that's what I've always said you and I do not talk often enough and obviously Tom it's fantastic to see you as well it's always fun to be here on Cogniz. Now I thought the show was be reasonably Rogan.

Is it not be reasonably? I've been searching be reasonably Rogan. There is no reasonable Rogan. I thought it was be reasonable Rogan. That it not be reasonable? I've been searching be reasonably Rogan. There is no reasonable Rogan. I thought it was be reasonable Rogan. That actually would have worked out. That would have worked out. Be reasonable Rogan. Be reasonable.

I'm gonna do something with the be reasonable names since I haven't put a show out for about a year and a half. I think that was probably, that ship is probably sailed by this. Oh, yeah, yeah, well. That's amazing. Outstanding. So I wanna, I wanna real quick, like I'm having an experience,

this is just kinda like, maybe it's a little personal, but I don't care. I'm having a really fun experience with the NoRogan experience. As somebody who's known both of you guys now, Cecil, I've known you for almost 30 years. Marsh, I've known you for a long time. I don't even know how long.

It's gotta be 10 years or a long decade. It could be over a decade. Yeah, easy. Long time. And I've always you for a long time. I don't even know how long. It's gotta be 10 years or a long decade. It's easy. Long time. And I've always, you know, like, I am in a position now where I get to be a fan of something that two of my favorite people do together. And that's a really cool place to be.

Like, it really just is fun. I'm having fun doing it. Like, I've listened to your podcast, Marsh Marsh separately, and I've been a fan of yours separately, you know, you've put out great material for many, many years. That's how we found each other. Yeah. But like, now I've got like two people and like, you've got these great shows and I get to be a fan of this show and experience this as a fan.

And it's just been like a fucking hoot for me. Like, I just get like a lot of like, personally, like, I know these guys, you know, like I do. I do. Like I'll turn people onto your show and I'll be like, oh, I fucking know these guys. And it's a cool thing to do. Like I don't get to, you know, it's just fun. It's just been fun. Like I make my, my teenage sons, I've made them listen to it a couple of times. They're 18 years old. They're right in that danger zone. Oh, you've got them listening. That's interesting. How are they finding it?

Well, they're occasional listeners of stuff. So like anything that like dad suggests, they're just sort of like, you know, Finn is a more regular consumer of materials that I'll suggest to him than Donovan is. Donovan though, if I put something, if I'm like, hey man, listen to this, he'll listen. Like, and he'll buckle in and listen.

And I think they're very sympathetic to your viewpoint because I think, you know, they've grown up in a household that is sympathetic to your viewpoint. Thankfully, not like down that road, but so many of their peers are down that road. And that's why I think it's important. Like in my mind, I'm like, I want to turn them onto it. So they'll evangelize it out You know, it's like the ants it's like the ant traps that like they put the poison in the take carry it back to the hill I'm like trying to get people like carry your show back to the ant hill, you know

I'm like poison the whole colony with like good ideas instead of this toxic evil shit. So I Am curious like I actually don't really know toxic evil shit. So I am curious. Like I actually don't really know What is the origin story of the show? Like why did you guys decide to do no Rogan? so I was this was you and I talking and To me talking to Eli and a few other people it was right around the election When things just sort of like you started to see that Joe Rogan was the guy who really did influence quite a bit of Young males to go vote for Donald Trump. Why was that? Why did that happen? I didn't really know like I'm looking at it as a guy who's just like I don't fucking know like it's just a random

like it could be it could be it could be any myriad of reasons why that happened and so then I started thinking about it and I remember I was starting to put together an idea of like, somebody should do something about this. Somebody should do something, do something, whatever it is, do something. And I was like, man, I think if somebody listened to it and really broke it down and showed people where all the bad stuff was,

maybe people would listen to that and say, oh, there's some sort of antidote to this. Cause he's got a real easy way about how he talks and how he interacts with people. And I thought maybe that could work. And I started kicking around ideas. And a lot of the people I know are really laden with podcasts. So a lot of the people that I know are like laden

with podcasts. And I was like, man, I want to start it, but I can't do it alone. I'm like, I'm not smart enough. I need a smart person. And I was like- And you couldn't find anyone? I can't do it alone. I'm like, I'm not smart enough. I need a smart person. And I was like- And you couldn't find anyone?

I don't know any others except for Marsh. So I reached out to Marsh and within, I would say maybe 10 minutes, Marsh was all in, 100% all in. That's awesome. Yeah. So I was thinking about this, cause like you were talking about

like the young man problem, right? And so I'm thinking about this, because you were talking about the young man problem, right? And so I'm sitting in this room, and I was thinking about this on my drive too. Here's something I find interesting. I listen to your show, and I was listening to Joe Rogan interviewing Jordan Peterson. And then I was thinking about me and you,

and Marsh, and we got a lot of gray in our beards. Joe Rogan's got a lot of gray in his hair. Jordan Peterson's not a young man. No, he's older than Joe by 10 years. Because yeah, something I was thinking was like, we don't know what's going on with young men because we're no longer young men, right? Like we don't have our finger on the pulse

the way that we did. See, so when you and I met, we were the target demographic. And I was gonna offer like a criticism, like, or like a, maybe not a criticism, but like a ask and response to your show. Be like, Hey, we're not, we are not the young man demographic. So like, are we really the right people to counter it? But then I thought to myself, Rogan's not a young guy either. And these influencers on that side, they are not young men either. Right. So I'm curious if you guys have any thoughts on how

age, sort of both of the influencers and of the counter message, maybe plays into credibility or what your thoughts might be around that. Yeah, I think so. I mean, to be honest, that's one of the reasons I was so keen that I said yes within 10 minutes of C-Cell messaging me because I've always been someone who wants to try and understand as much as possible what people are thinking, especially the people who are influential, especially the people who are following pseudoscience and following conspiracy theory and ending up in really bad places. That's why I spent time undercover in the Flat Earth movement and undercover in the anti-vaccine movement. And when we see this happening around the election, I realised there was this massive

gap in my knowledge that I needed to fill. And then I think for us to be there, I also have the thing as I'm not the target demographic anymore, but I don't think this crisis of masculinity that I think Joe Rogan is kind of trying to lead, he's trying to fill this kind of gap in what men are these days. I think that needs someone to come from an older generation. I don't think it can come from someone who's 20 year old, who's 25 year old even. It needs to come from this, people are looking for a wiser figure. That's the only reason Jordan Peterson has the reach that he does, is that he has this professorial aspect. Even if what he's saying is kind of, once you boil

it down and really listen to it, it just evaporates into nothingness. But it has this illusion of wisdom and it's this illusion of, I've been there, I know what I'm talking about. I'm someone you can follow at a time when everything seems uncertain. The old trappings of masculinity, the old milestones don't seem to be within reach anymore. And it's kind of hard to see what the anchors are. Well, I'll offer you some simple anchors. And so that's why I was so, so keen to try and understand this. Because I don't think we can really start to unpick the influence of these people until

we fully understand it, until we actually listen. And I realized I've been criticizing Rogan for ages, and I'd never listened to a full episode of anything he had to say, not one episode of his show. And it's the biggest podcast. I'm a podcaster, you guys are podcasters. You haven't listened to Rogan for a full episode. He's the biggest thing in the thing that we do. But people like us don't listen to him and people, but he's got a massive audience and those audiences are listening. And yeah, that's why I was so keen to do it. And they're looking for leader figures.

They're looking for almost father figures, I'd say. And I think too, that's how, you know, there's a push on the left now. And you hear this from a lot of different people and you heard it right after the election and it hasn't stopped. There's this call for the left needs a Rogan. The left needs a Rogan.

There needs to be a Rogan figure on the left. And I think they're trying to reverse engineer it. And you can't do that. It's impossible to do. What Rogan does really, really well is he reaches young men and makes them feel important, makes their ideas feel important, makes the things that they pursue feel important.

And it makes, and he also in a lot of ways makes them feel like the path that they choose in life if it is traditional masculinity is reinforced by a lot of people. And I think what he's doing is just talking to them like a father figure in a lot of ways, showing them that someone like him can be famous and be successful and he's bringing all these other people who are sort of clones of him. These comedians that all have pretty much the same ideas. The professors like Marsh mentions,

they all pretty much have the same ideas. All these people are wildly famous, making lots of money. And he's showing these people that there's a path to success if you just follow your traditional values. And I think like, you're never gonna reach these people unless you have, and have built a thing that can reach out to these young men who like to watch fighting, who like to watch, who like to talk about hunting things and like to

talk about, you know, very trad, very trad masculine stuff. If you can't do that, if you just come out with this sort of like, well, I'm gonna tell you how to be a man and it's okay if you're accepting and all that, no one's gonna listen to that. What they need to listen to first is all that stuff that Rogan pulls him in with. Get the crazy people on there

with these insane conspiracy theories because that's who he draws in is this large group of people with conspiracy theories. And so he gets those people on and he gets to marry and he gets to talk to those people pretty unfiltered about all the things that he believes. And I think like, like him being open about his beliefs is sort of what I think draws a lot of people to him. So I think a lot of people on the left are thinking we can make this Rogan, we can do it. No, you can't. No, you can't. You can. If you worked from the, it's like, it's like when people talk about third party

and they're always like, yeah, we need to send the third party candidate to Washington, you're like, that doesn't work. That's not a thing. You gotta grassroots that shit. You gotta build from the bottom up. And I think people aren't gonna be able to wait long enough to build like a left leaning Rogan.

Somebody who is doing all this trad mask stuff, but then also doing, you know, also like trad mask stuff, but with a caveat that it's like, you know, like all the stuff that the left believes, you know, that's not gonna work. So you gotta get it built in the bottom up. And I don't think that's gonna happen quickly. It's gotta happen organically. So let me offer, cause I think, you know, I think I've got,

I wish I had a pen and paper, cause I've got three different ideas. So I'm gonna have to like throw them all out there for you. But like one thing that really strikes me about what you said, and I wonder how possible you think it is. Like if we're gonna reach, I really do believe that like,

if we're gonna reach the young, disaffected male population, one of the reasons Rogan is successful is because he has the credibility of being a guy tied to the UFC. Yeah. UFC gives an enormous amount of credibility because he's like, he's like, hey, I'm in this space that you like.

I am an expert in this mass, in this type of performative masculinity that like we all kind of enjoy. I enjoy it. Like you and I watched it, how many fights? Hundreds of fights. Hundreds of fights. Sure. Like, Marsh doesn't enjoy it. Marsh doesn't like... Marsh is not a fist of cuffs. Watch a guy get... I'm a football guy. That's a very trad masculinist thing in the UK. Watching the thing you'd call soccer. I'm obsessed about that. I always see Marsh and I go back and forth because I'm the one who does no fighting and he's like I don't give a shit. I don't care about fighting. Which is fine, right? Like I don't give a shit about like most sports at all.

Yeah. Right. But I happened to, I did take an interest in fighting for a while, for sure. But like, I do look at Rogan and I'm like, all right, here's a guy who gets a credibility from his adjacency to these sort of performatively masculine spaces. And I do worry that like trying to sort of like, like you say, reverse engineer our own Rogan from the left.

If it doesn't come from a place that has adjacency to that trad masculine kind of space is just doomed to fail because it won't seem credible. It won't walk in with that sort of like veneer of credibility of like, hey, I'm partisan. It's like, I feel that it seems like strikes to me as just incredibly true. Like, and that leads me to, I guess my thought that like, is our left ideas compatible with traditional masculinity?

Do you think that they're, cause I have a thought on that and I think that they are, but like not all of them, right? Like I think like I'll give you a chance to answer, I promise and not just Yammer, but like I think of myself in most ways as fairly traditionally masculine. Me too, yeah. Like I fit that mold very comfortably in most ways.

Nobody fits it a hundred percent, right? Is it, and nobody checks every box, but in most ways. Nobody fits it 100%, right? And nobody checks every box. But in most ways, I fit that. It doesn't feel incompatible with my ideals at all. But I do think that there's a perception among young people that they can't have that cake and eat it too. How do you guys feel about that in terms of plausibility? Like, where are you at with that kind of idea?

Yeah, I think I agree in a lot of ways. I think part of the problem, part of the issue is, it's almost easier to express the incredibly, incredibly surface level elements of trans masculinity in a right wing way. It's very easily below, here's how you be a man. And it's this kind of big, it's this aggressive, it's this kind of, those it's this aggressive, it's this kind of, those

hyper-masculine ways I think often lead towards the right. Whereas there are very strong elements of masculinity that are sort of more left-corded or more comfortable with the left, but there's something you need to really think about because when you are looking at left-wing ideas, they're a bit more complicated. It's not black and white. It's not simple. It's not, you know, foreigners bad, neighbors good. There's a lot more you need to think. So the idea of finding this positive progressive, but still very masculine form of being, it's just going to be much harder to do because it's much less surface. And I think it's also difficult when, I think one of the reasons Rogan has this kind of big audience, partly he has got the credibility because he comes in with the, well, why would you listen to him?

Oh, because he's that guy from the thing that you like. You can't, as you say, you can't reverse engineer that. You can't fake that. You'd need someone with that authenticity. But it's also that he's able to talk to an audience who are being told, you're not as important as you used to be. Because young white men aren't as important as they used to be in society. And that's very reasonable because they were given an abundance, an overabundance of advantage in society for a long time. And the rest of society has said, actually, it's about time we made this a bit more equal. And so being told that you aren't as important as you used to be, that's kind of fine as a category, but it's shit as an individual. It's fine that the genre of you not having the power that it used to have access to,

you can live with that, but you can't live with, and therefore you Tom, are not going to have the opportunities that you feel you deserve because you are part of this other category. And so I think we'll always have this, to try and do a positive masculinity from a left perspective, we're always going to be fighting a little bit with one hand tied behind our backs because the right-wing versions of that are just so much shorter to get to. There's a shortcut to all of the right-wing versions of it because it can offer you a

simplistic view, it can offer you an old-fashioned view, and it can offer you that sense of you can reclaim something that once was yours, but it was yours because you effectively stole it from everyone else as it were. And I can say that as a British person because that exactly is the British identity. And you guys stole most of everything. You stole everything. It's like a whole thing for you.

And you're not giving it back either. That should stay in that museum. We're not giving it back. The sun that should stay in that museum. Like we're not giving it back. The sun has set largely though, I will say. Yeah. One of the things that's really interesting, and we sort of pull this apart on the Jordan Peterson episode.

And it's when we were talking about it, Marsh went into the notes really thinking, what we really need to do is talk about how Jordan Peterson turns everything into Christianity. And that's sort of like the angle we took because there's so many constant, we go back to it over and over and over again. Every time he starts to say something,

every time they start to talk about anything. Every time he starts to tell a story. Remote, the interesting, he'll be like, can I tell you a story? And then he'll be like, well, God is, and then he'll talk about God for like 10 minutes. And then he'll be like, well, Moses did this and then he'll talk about God for like 10 minutes. And then he'll be like, well, Moses did this thing. And you're like, well, none of that is interesting.

But it doesn't matter because what he's trying to do is he's trying to show all these people, all these disaffected people, we talk about it on the show, but he's talking about all these young, disaffected males, these white males. Man, patriarchy is alive and well in the Catholic church and in the Christian church.

It's alive and well. And it's never gonna go anywhere. And the more we embrace this now, and the more you reach out and embrace these things, the more powerful we are as a group, right? The more powerful men are as a group. And the more they get to say. And so he's convincing all these young people

that this is all great because he's literally telling them, you know, anti-feminist stuff, tropes that are in the Bible, right? He's saying Eve is, her empathy is too open. She's too open with her empathy. And, you know, he's trying to explain to people that women can't be trusted to steer the rudder. Men need to steer women to show them

that they are the ones who understand the world and women are the caregivers And so we need to direct that caregiving under who deserves it because women are indiscriminate with their care And so that's that's literally the I mean, I'm not kidding. I'm not stretching this This is not this is not me putting high-perfume interpretation. This is literally his words, right? This is not, this is not me putting high purple in this. This is not an interpretation. This is literally his words, right? So he's saying this over and over again. And what this is saying to all these young men is I should be the one in charge.

I am the one of primacy. I'm the one who should be handling all this. My hand should be on the rudder. And that's really just so it reaches out to these young men. And look at just recently it broke and Joe Rogan even said on his show, he's starting to go to church now. This is a guy who for a decade and a half sort of showed himself about as a sort of a, maybe not an atheist, but certainly a secular figure.

And now look at him, he's going to church because it's great. That's great PR for him. That's wonderful PR for him. So they're digging into these traditional, like you said, can we be compatible? Well, in some ways we can't. The left can't be, I don't think can be super compatible with that sort of deep patriarchal church tradition. I don't think it can be, right?

At all. But I think they have a lot of, there's a lot of head starts they have because they have all of these patriarchal institutions that they can easily tap right back into. And that's been their, I mean, that's been the go ahead. That's literally why they were in charge for so long. Yeah, like patriarchy is masculinity on easy mode, but then try and show a more complex form of masculinity.

Like, well, you think of some of the traits that would be historically associated with masculinity, and it would be things like being the provider, being the person who's able to be the protector. And that can be done in a very simplistic way of, and therefore I will have all the money and have the job and fight the people, or fight all the bad guys. Or it can be done in a, I'm the provider, so what do the people around me need? What are your emotional needs? What are your needs for safety? And how do I make sure that you are protected and nurtured and lifted up? And that's the form of masculinity that you could show in that kind of leftist way. But it's a much less black and white version and it

doesn't have centuries of literature that you can point back to to say, well, there's this story in the Bible, so maybe women shouldn't have the vote. To show the positive form of masculinity, we need to find another way of doing that. You know, one thing that I worry about is that our roadmap is too complicated to read. Right? Like one thing that the Rogans, the Jordan Petersons, these guys, they've been very adept, I think, at constructing a roadmap for young men that is very easy to read. Follow the, here's 12 rules. Make your bed, you know, like these are easy things. These are, they're not complicated.

It's so easy. He made another 12. He made another 12 of them. Doubled it up. I'll tell you what, it's also because it's a well-worn groove. He'll make another 12. Yeah, but it's, it's a very well-worn groove. They're not make, the thing, he's not making these rules.

He's just lying back on the grooves that have always been there. It's always easier to fall back on how it's always been than to try and find a new path that still gets you to a better place. It's much, much easier to just rely on what was always there, the tradition of it. Yeah, I do have, like, I have two worries. Like I think that there's a deep necessity for the counter message, right? There is a deep abiding necessity for the counter message.

And I worry that counter messages are always subservient to the primary message, right? And that the message, the counter message is complicated. And so it's less satisfying, right? It's less satisfying to young minds. And so I wonder, is there a need to simplify on the left and offer a more simplified roadmap? And like, I'm just gonna say this out loud,

and this is gonna sound like a crazy thing to say, but a roadmap that helps young heterosexual men feel like they can get laid. Because I'll tell you what, like I am on, according to Facebook, right? I am a very traditional man's man. And I think that's because on Facebook, which I spend very little time on, like I will occasionally like stop and watch a reel that's like a fight highlight or a workout video or um I don't know there's some third thing I can't even remember I don't look at a lot of stuff.

A chick bending over. No I know it's funny because I never look at that stuff but what has happened over time is that what reels has decided what kind of person I am and so I'm being fed and increasingly and I don't use it very often but when I log into it I'm being fed and increasingly, and I don't use it very often, but when I log into it, I'm being fed an increasingly male centric diet. And one of the things that I notice about these spaces is that they have a tendency when it comes to women to do one of two things. They either put women down to put them in their place often like by judge, judging them sexually or otherwise, right? Like, you know, what's your body count, you know, value,

high value, low value, all this sort of like bullshit. Or they create a space for men who if they follow these rules, women will sleep with them. And I was thinking to myself, I worry that our counter message is complicated. I worry that counter messages are always subservient. And then I worry that like our counter message doesn't give men, hey, if you do these things, women will like you. And I actually think that like our message, they're a stronger than their message. Yeah.

That's that I wonder, is that the wedge? I was thinking about this the other day. Is that the wedge for the left to create a roadmap that's simple and that like bluntly gets them laid because people do things that get us laid. Like we're not that complicated, right? to create a roadmap that's simple and that like bluntly gets them laid because people do things that get us laid. Like we're not that complicated, right? So, and I do think that our message there is stronger. It's more appealing. What do you think of that idea?

Were those ideas? When you say that, the first thing that pops in my head is cause your eyes got huge. What Mars said earlier was something I think that we're gonna to retouch back on is which is like the truth is complicated. Yeah. Right. So, and I don't think, something I think that we're gonna to retouch back on is which is like the truth is complicated Yeah, right so and and I don't think and I think what what what you're seeing a lot of when you see what they say is

Bullshit, it's easy to lie to people It's easy to say like all you have to do is do these 12 things and you'll fix your life like that's a fucking easy thing to say and nobody should believe it because it's because doing 12 things that they are like easy enough to write down in a self-help book is probably not going to fix your entire life because it can't be that ubiquitous because if it was that easy everyone would have a perfect life so that's stupid right but you know like like the idea is is that the truth is more complicated than that and that and the and the same thing goes for for many of the things that you know i think liberals care about. Like immigration, for instance, is a really complicated issue.

It's very easy to hold up a sign that says deport, like mass deportations now. That's very easy to hold up the sign, right? But that doesn't deal with how to do it, the complications of it, and then the aftermath, right? It doesn't deal with any of that stuff. It's just an action item, right? It's one action item.

But there's a lot more nuanced ideas, I think, on the left about things like immigration and other things. It's harder to get that message out, which is why we saw in the last election, real easy message reached a lot of people, a more difficult, nuanced, tougher message that had maybe some negatives that you might have to deal with or it wasn't reaching everybody, it didn't sell to everyone. And I think that that's what the real issue. And I think it's going to be harder to sell those things, those very specific things to people.

I do think that you're, you're in a better position to find someone that you can relate to and maybe have a relationship with if you are treating them like people. I guarantee that's true. I just think that the messaging to... I think the messaging is more simple, but I don't think it plays well with that group. I think there is a simple message, which is like, be empathetic, right? But that doesn't play well with that trad mask group.

And telling the truth is going to be a little difficult. I think they come out of the gate swinging hard. And I think that leaning into those traditional spaces, those traditional patriarchy spaces, you know, you look at the backlash that they're seeing now, that we're seeing now where they're saying, where they're trying to limit women's choices, you know, like we've been talking about this on the show for gosh, the last three years, they're trying to limit women's choices when it comes to abortion and all these other things because they want them to have to choose men to help them.

They want them to choose men. They don't want people to be single. They want people to choose men because it's going to make the men more happy. But we're seeing that men aren't making themselves chooseable. They're being, they're doing bad things and acting out. So I think like there is this connection, but I think it's going to be real hard to make that a simple message. Yeah. I think, I think I completely agree. Although what I do think is we talk a lot about, think about the way that conspiracy theories draw people in. They don't draw people in by giving

them the most extreme form of conspiracy theory to begin with. You don't go straight to, and did you know it's the lizards who are Jews who did 9-11? You don't go straight to that. You start with the entry-level stuff that picks at people's emotions and the fears that are there. Little intellectual foreplay. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. The concerns they have in their regular life. And maybe part of the issue that we have in trying to put forward a more progressive point of view is maybe we're trying to give everyone too much too soon, rather than giving them those initial starting points. It may not

be the most rounded version of a worldview, but it's the breadcrumbs that will help you once you've taken these bits on board, you're ready for a slightly more complicated story. So maybe we're trying to give people all of the answers too quickly and try to fix all of their flaws at once. And what you end up doing is telling people they've got a lot of flaws and that can be a hard message to have. Yeah, man. I worry about that stuff. I worry that reality is always complicated and nuanced and muddy and it requires you to like really dig in and engage and it's like well that's going to lose. Like that messaging is too complicated because most people don't, that's not what they're searching for and like to be honest most of the messaging isn't stuff people search for, it's like actively it's stuff

that people are fed passively. And like, again, like I'm not trying to say that my experience is representative. In fact, I know that like, there's no such thing as representative experience on the internet, right? Like all experiences are intentionally algorithmically personalized. So like nobody has an experience of the internet that they could say, this is normal or I know that.

But like, as somebody interested in like, for example, like fitness spaces, those are heavily right leaning spaces. But I keep thinking they don't have to be. No. And that like, how to get laid stuff. There's good messaging on the left. Like it's okay to want to have sex with people.

Like that's a fun thing for people to want to do together. I think our messaging on that isn't as clear and like we have a great message, right? Like we could have a message that like has somebody like telling you how to increase your bench press and be a good listener. And like women will like that, right? Like that's not untrue because they're doing that on the right, you know, and like those are the guys that I see the more plates, more dates type people, right? Their messaging, they take something that's trad mask, and then they use that as the wedge for all this intellectual laundering. And the Rogan guys are great at that intellectual laundering stuff. And I think about that stuff.

So I get I don't know that that's the answer. It's just something I think about because I'm like, don't know that that's the answer. It's just something I think about. Cause I'm like, I'm inundated with this messaging that I'm like, we could do a better job. You could follow our advice and get laid more actually. Like it would be more effective, I believe that. Yeah, I think you're onto something.

It's almost, what's missing is the male equivalent of that trend of videos where women will be putting on their makeup while talking about real world problems and real world events. And it's a combination of the beauty regime and the, and did you know this is what's happening in Gaza? At the same time. The Get Ready With Me videos are a big deal.

Yeah. I've seen dudes do it, but they're chopping wood. Yes. They're chopping wood and like talking to the camera and being like, hey, maybe you should listen to her. Whack. Whack.

Whack. You know? But I think there's also something in refra- reframing complexity because the ideas that we're talking about, the ideas that the left tend to, the solutions that we have, the real solutions to problems, the ones that might actually be useful in some way, are complex. And that will scare people off. Unless we can reframe complexity as a challenge to be risen to, and as something exciting. And maybe that's something we need to do as well, is to make it so people, is to take

the fear out of complexity. And I'm not saying we do that by stoking male bravada of like, hey, look at me, I can take on all manner of complex ideas. What a man I am. I've got a woman wouldn't have an answer for this. I can be so brave. I'm not the one facing down a tiger because there's no tigers attacking me, but I am facing down capitalism. And you know, maybe that's today's tiger. It's maybe it's that kind of thing. I don't know. So I am curious, because we're talking about all of this and like, I've not been a follower of Joe Rogan's

except for Off to the Side, right? I've never actually listened to a full Lord of the Rings fucking episode of a fucking Rogan podcast. Cause I actually have a fucking day job. I don't know how anybody has time for that. I have a day job on top of this. Yeah.

Dude, fucking shit. But-. Fucking shit. Like, but. I'm unemployed. That's good. You're extremely employed, my friend. But that shit has drifted so hard post-COVID, right? Joe Rogan is now, is not the same Joe Rogan as the Joe Rogan of 2020. 2019. It's hard to know a hundred percent, but I will say that we have reached into the back catalog

a couple of times and he has matched the energy of the person who he's talking to in real important ways. Not being a COVID denier, not being far right, not saying things that we could easily be like, well, that's fucking easily Russian propaganda that you got fed that you're just spitting back out, right? You're seeing him at least match the energy of the people. I don't know if he believes it.

Like we're in this weird position right now where we've gotten our toes wet with some of these back catalog things. And he's been okay in those where if this was the show, it wouldn't even be a show. No one would listen to it because it doesn't. He's not saying anything that's so problematic where you're like, well, God, I got to call that out. There's nothing to call. There is stuff to call out, but you'd be a nitpicky. Like it wouldn't

be worth it. Right. But I think like, I think I'm not sure. And I know Marsh isn't sure whether he just matching the energy of the person he's talking to. But his guest list has changed. Well, we haven't... Here's a really interesting piece. We just did a recording like three weeks ago and we released it to patrons. Caris Santa Maria was on his show. So we did...

We recovered Caris Santa Maria's episode on Joe Rogan where she's talking to him. And it's... And there's certainly some spots in there. It's talking to him and it's and there's certainly something it's like 2015 or something isn't it yeah it's 2014 2015 it's like 10 years ago and in that episode he mentions I just had someone on the show that said this horrible thing and it was about Robin Williams and Robin Williams's suicide was right around that time and this horrible person on his show had said something like, the reason why he killed himself

was because of his wife suing him for a bunch of money and he was broke or something like that. Is there something along those lines? I don't know the exact wording of this. And I went back and I looked. And the person right before Kara Santa Maria, I'm not even kidding, not even any space, it's literally the show before, is a guy named Stefan Molyneux.

Now you might not be familiar with this name, but he's basically a male influencer, or was for a long time, I don't know how active he is now. I feel like we may have covered him a long time ago. A long time ago we did. And here's the thing, he's like one of these alt-right, one of the people who sort of birthed the idea of alt-right. Like this is a guy, he's like one of these alt-right, one of the people who sort of birthed the idea of alt-right.

Like this is a guy and he's one of these very masculine space of men's rights guys. And he was on the show literally right before. And one of the things we're gonna start out the next season with is us going back and listening to the Stefan Molyneux at the beginning where before Rogan had any of this COVID stuff and stuff that sort of pushed him off the rails, does he, is he going to be the same guy that talked to Kara Santa

Maria or is he a different guy when he talks to Stefan Malinou? How different is Rogan in these different spaces? And I think that's a real important thing to know. Because if Rogan is just a, if he's just melding himself to his guests, then, then he's not, what does he really believe? Do we know? Well, does, so that, that's a good, that's not, what does he really believe? Do we know? Well, so that's interesting.

I'm curious what you guys think then. If I wanna learn what Joe Rogan, where he really sits and what his thoughts are, would a good way to think about that be to say, all right, let's look at the rightward drift of the guests he chooses, right? Like, do I think, like for example, do you think that he would have Kara Santa Maria on today?

It's hard to know. I don't, he does reach across the aisle on occasion, but often the people he's talking to, and then we're going to talk about another episode that we talked, that we did just recently, where he talks to Neil deGrasse Tyson. And Neil deGrasse Tyson brings up trans issues that Joe has 100% fallen on the other side for and he never pushes back. Not a second does he push back in that episode. So again, I don't know like if he would have these people on, he might not even want to talk to them about those things.

He might avoid those conversations in some ways about with those people. He had a guy on from the Daily Show recently. He didn't cover it. Michael Kosta, yeah. Yeah, he had a moment. He didn't cover it. Michael Koster, yeah. Yeah, he had a moment and he didn't cover anything that was controversial or that Joe was like, those are traditional sort of Russian talking points, the Russian war talking points and other stuff.

He didn't cover any of that stuff. So he might avoid those conversations to avoid that sort of pushback. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so going into the election, he talked a lot about how much he tried to get Kamala Harris on. And even afterwards, he was saying, well, the fact that she wouldn't come on my show was like, there's a real, you know, that was a dagger in it for me. I was

definitely not going to vote for her. But when we listen to people, or listen to the shows he was doing around that time, I think it was honest that he would have wanted Kamala Harris on. But when we listened to the Donald Trump episode, it was really clear that he was teeing up softball after softball. He was pretty clearly there to launder Trump's reputation. I think if he'd had Harris on, he'd have reached across the aisle and had her on. But it would have been a very combative interview because he had clearly marked out his map at that point. He was very clear. He'd staked out his turf. He knew where he was going and he was trying to then sell his point of view to his audience going into that election.

So I think he would still reach across the aisle, but it wouldn't be the collegiate conversation he has when he has people who are from an extremist point of view on. I think he'd only pick up the points where he wants to push back. And so he would say, yeah, I'm talking to loads of people, but you're arguing with one set of them and you're agreeing with the other set of them. That doesn't make you a neutral. It doesn't make you a centrist. One, one of the interesting things too, that we covered in this last season was an actual argument that he had on the show between a guy named Dave Smith and a person named Douglas

Murr. Oh yeah, this is interesting. They came on and they on and Joe was, would you, I don't know that I'd call him a moderator, Marsh. He felt like he was definitely on Dave's side the whole time. He never felt like he was ever on Douglas's side. He was, it was basically two against one. Yeah. And Douglas Murray came on as much of a fuckwit as the guy is. He came on and I think he did a lot of good, he said a lot of really important things that I think Joe's listeners probably needed to hear. Now it went in one ear and out the he did a lot of good, he said a lot of really important things that I think Joe's listeners probably needed to hear. Now went in one ear and out the other

with a lot of these people, because Joe within a couple episodes was trashing this guy, because Joe can't do it in front of him. He'll trash him afterwards. I saw recently that he trashed a guy who came on and argued with, we covered a guy named Graham Hancock, who's like this ancient pyramid,

ancient sort of civilization guy, right? And he's got these wild ideas about archaeology. Well, he had in the debate, which we haven't covered yet, we might do this season, this upcoming season, where he argues with a guy named Flint Dibble. So the two of those guys argue, Graham Hancock and Flint Dibble, and Joe is kind of sitting back, and I don't know exactly how into the argument he is, because I haven't watched the show, I don't know. But now, recently, I saw a video where he's trashing Flint Dibble. So he'll get people on the show, like you suggest maybe he'll have somebody on, but then after the fact, poison the well against these people.

So, you know, you might be right that, you know, even if he has these people on, does it even matter anymore? Yeah. You know, that's an if he has these people on, does it even matter anymore? That's an interesting thing to think about too. Does it even matter if he has these people on? If the next episode he's just gonna shit on. His approach on that show you were talking about, the fact that he doesn't say anything

until after the guest has gone and it's on a future show. I think that also says something really interesting about the form of masculinity that he's putting forward. Because for all this hyper aggressive talk, for all the hyper masculine talk, it is one of the least, one of the least conflicting places on the internet I think I've ever seen. It's one of the most conflict averse conversational spaces you can possibly imagine. There's almost no time. And we've now watched what, 78 hours-ish of Joe Rogan content. You can count on one hand the number of points at which there's...

Three whole episodes. But you can count on one hand the number of times there's any conflict in the studio, because he's so conflict-averse. And that doesn't align with what you would expect when you think about a Joe Rogan, UFC fighting, kind of hyper masculine space. But it's just this constant yes anding of ideas. And yeah, he will not bring stuff up if he's completely against it. He'll just let it pass. But then the second that person's not there, he'll be bickering behind their back. And that seems to me in conflict with the kind of masculinity he would himself say he's putting forward.

Yeah. So here's a thought I had too, because I was thinking that like a way to view that rightward drift, like I said, might be to look at the rightward drift of the guests he chooses more than what he says to the guests. But then I thought immediately as you were talking, is the right just better at creating celebrities in these types of online spaces?

So there are just more right wing people in the podcast world and in this sort of influencer space to choose from. So if I, if I, if I want to reach out and have a show that's going to touch a hundred million people or 150 million people or whatever, I wanna get high profile guests on. Are there just more high profile influencers on the right than on the left? Would that account for it as well, do you think? Yeah, 100%.

Because that just could be my perception. 100%, I'd say. And I think it's for a couple of reasons. One of those reasons is there is way more money in it on the right. And there's more money coming from the right to go into it. So you look at someone like Ben Shapiro, Ben Shapiro wouldn't have had the huge reach that he had if he wasn't propped up by quite a lot of money from various

think tanks who wanted to make Ben Shapiro a thing. And that's true of like other people in that space. I mean, Tim Poole... I find him very dry. Yeah. Yeah. But you look at, you look at someone like Tim Poole, Tim Poole was found to be taking a large amount of money per show, I think it was Tim Poole, Dave Rubin as well. Yeah, Tim Poole and Dave Rubin are the two. I think taking a huge amount of money from Russia. Yeah, yeah.

So like, it's easy to become a thing when you're being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars per episode and you can have this infrastructure behind them. I think there was another, it might've been Dave Rubin who was brought into a network and then there was sort of, and I'm relatively hazy on the details, but I'm sure this was something that was happening. I think it was Dave Rubin brought into a new network and then they were surprised that he wasn't bringing in the kind of numbers, the kind of viewers that they were anticipating. And it's

because the network he was from was being heavily propped up by money. And so that you have this ready made bid. So I think it's partly that. And then partly you have things like, you look at one of the people we covered on an episode was Ian Carroll, who's a conspiracy theorist whose material goes into very clearly antisemitic spaces. And he was massive on TikTok and he's doing the rounds on all these different kind of Rogan Sphere adjacent podcasts. And it's easier to do that when you're able to make incredibly sensationalist claims about

Pizzagate being real and this person over here is a blood drinking pedophile. That's a really easy thing to say when you don't have to back anything up and there's almost no consequences. The only consequence for saying stuff like that is more fame and more celebrity and more notoriety and more attention. So it's really easy to do that. I don't know that on the left it's as easy to do that, or if it is, we haven't cracked it. And maybe part of the reason we haven't cracked it is because we are trying to do everything all at once. Try to be perfect

in every direction and not have any rough edges that might come up against a different idea. And that leads to a sense of caution. I think that can lead to a much more cautious approach to things. That you're on the defensive. As you say, Tom, you're the counter narrative to the narrative. And the narrative will always lead because it's giving its own message and then the counter message is also having to tell that message in order to bunk it. So it's, it's being told twice for every time the counter message is being told once. Right. And what a, what a bizarre space to be in where reality is what has to be defended. Like, like just physical, like we're in a place like we're just like physical reality,

right? Like, like, like, you know, the earth is a round thing, you know? Like we're talking about basic shit. But reality is the only thing that would ever need to be defended because because bullshit doesn't need to be defended because bullshit isn't essential. If it doesn't fly, it goes away and gets replaced by something else. It's why there's this. That's very true. There's this incredible selection, like a natural selection when it comes to bullshit, because the selective pressures are how easily can this transmit, how easily can this spread. Not how true is

it, because truth doesn't matter to how well it spreads. So you have this, in the petri dish of pseudoscience and conspiracy and bullshit, all the selective pressures are towards sensationalism. That's not true of reality, because reality is there regardless what you say about it. So again, there's this asymmetric warfare, unfortunately. And what's a better story? If you're going to tell your listeners, you're going to get your rapt attention of all your listeners, what's a better story?

That there was a global pandemic and a bunch of boring scientists made a boring vaccine and gave that to a bunch of people and the side effects were minimal and 13.86 billion doses were given worldwide. And we basically did our very best to try to make sure that a lot of people didn't die. If we'd have done better, we'd have saved more lives. We didn't save as many lives as we could, but we wound up saving a lot of lives because we distributed the vaccine as quickly as we could

and people survived because of it. Or that there's some weird secret cabal out there that is trying to poison us with this thing. It's this disease is somehow super engineered in a lab, but it's also at the same time, also you can get it and just eat like an apple and you're fine. And so there's all these really weird conflicting messages. There's all these dark shady figures. There's all these like dark, shady figures.

There's all this like underground stuff and they're peeling back the onion. Just like when we talk about conspiracies all the time, like this is a better story. It's a, it's a better narrative. I can tell a better, more compelling story if I'm going to lie to you than if I have to tell you the truth. And so he's really good at telling the story. And he brings people on and think about all the people. I think about all the people he's not on.

I would say if he didn't talk about COVID every single episode that we've listened to, except for the ones where the people are clearly on the left, right? Like, so he does, I don't remember him talking about it all when Neil deGrasse Tyson. And it was well before Kara was on. But in any case, like these are people who, he's, they're coming on, he's talking about COVID every single time.

He's talking about how he was maligned by this media outlets that are trying to destroy him, right? He's telling a compelling narrative to all these people that are listening and they're buying it. Because the truth is sometimes very boring. The truth is sometimes, it doesn't have any, it's like, okay, yeah, so they made a vaccine and that was it.

Well, that's a boring story. But it's not just boring. It's again, the truth is complex. So thinking of the way he talks about the vaccine, he's like, oh, and it came around so quickly. How do they have this so quickly? Why were they rushing this out? Was this really rushed out?

And the answer to that is, well, because they cut the red tape and yeah, we could probably do it this quickly all the time if we weren't worried about having to get various funding grants and go through all the red tape of filling in application forms rather than doing the science. We could have vaccines much faster, but capitalism is bureaucratic. That's the boring answer. His answer had to be like, no, they did COVID in order to risk this vaccine because they got the vaccine to you so quickly. That's the future we could have if we were able to fight the way the system is currently made. But doing that bit is way more complicated and you can't sell a podcast. You have to explain to people like, well, we actually, there are some times where we

want the system to operate slowly and there are other times when there is an urgency. That means that you have to take, you have to accept a different risk level. Yeah. Right? Like that was true of COVID too, where you were like, all right, well, I, you know, typically we don't need to move at this speed because we have not been presented with something this novel and moving this fast and this unknown. It's like, sometimes you move faster depending on what the emergency is. You know, like I don't have to run as fast from a snapping turtle as I do from a bear, right? Like I'm going to move away from them.

If they're both trying to bite me, I'm like, I'm not standing still, but I got a little more time if it's the turtle, right? Like I don't have to like react in the same way. Yeah. So like, but that's also like, again, it's that complexity of message. It's that nuance of message.

So I'm going to ask you this question, like, who was your favorite guest to cover? And then who do you think Joe's favorite guest was that you covered? Oh God, now I've got to really remember everyone that we've covered because we've seen. I already know my favorite. My favorite is easy. Okay. My favorite is easy. It's Terrence Howard. Terrence Howard was absolutely

the favorite. That one was so crazy and so nuts. He starts the episode. We're three minutes in and he's like, I remember being shit out of my mom's vagina. And you're like, no way, dude. He's remembered being... he remembers being inside the womb and looking at his hand and

you're like, come on. He is amazing. Like, it was an amazing, genuinely one of those things that you listen to and you're like, I can't believe somebody took this person seriously for three plus hours. You could, I could not believe it. So I think I'm going to have to stick with that one. I was just trying to refresh my memory around each of the guests. I'm going to have to go with you on that one only because every show we try and do a what was good about this episode. And I think that's a feature

we may have to abandon in the second series because we are very quickly running out of things. And the only times that I have anything like that are when it's someone who, okay, this person is terrible, but watching this interview gave me a really important insight into what's going on now. Like, I now understand what happened with the Maha movement from having seen Callie and Casey Means' interview. So the fact that they laid out there how they were going to do the capture of the institution, that was one of my favourite episodes to watch. Not because I liked them

or because it was a good conversation, but actually because they just handed you their blueprint openly in October 2023. Because they knew nobody important was watching. They knew nobody that disagreed with them was watching. So the blueprint for what is happening now was on that show. And none of us noticed at the time because we didn't watch Rogan. So yeah, I think that one was probably it for me, not because they were good people, because they're really not, but because it kind of, it justified the show, I suppose. It justified the premise of what we're doing. Yeah. It's all well, the, the, the, the right doesn't try to hide this stuff. They, they gave us product of 2025. We knew what they were going to do. Like we knew it. So they don't try to hide this stuff. They gave us project 2025. We knew what they were going to do. Like we knew it. So they don't try to hide this stuff. They know what they're going to do when

they come in. So they're happy to tell everybody their master plan. And they, and they, the Cali and Casey Means executed their master plan perfectly. I mean, the people that they have in place in front of all these that are involved in this Maha movement. I mean, you're seeing all these different doctors, all these different ideas are now becoming mainstream in the United States. When we just covered RFK and Marsh had this really insightful piece because there's this little piece at the end, like they cover vaccines, Tom. It's like literally two hours and 49 minutes of vaccines. It's all vaccines, right? It's all him talking about vaccines. And then he's like, well, I'll never talk about vaccines again. I'm done talking about vaccines. And then he's like, well, I'll never talk about vaccines again. I'm done talking about vaccines.

And then he says, and Marsh and I both picked up on it, he's really empathetic towards people that are underprivileged. At the very end of the show is this really wonderful sort of plea that we should take care of our poor brothers and sisters. And I believe him. Like, he's not just saying this.

Like, I believe him. I believe that's what he wants to do. But Marsh said, and it was really smart, he's like, he just threw all that away because the other stuff, the Maha stuff was way more important to him than those poor brothers and sisters. I think he cares about those people,

but I think he chose, he had to choose, right? This is the crossroads. Do I get a Golden Fiddle or do I? You know what I mean? Like, what do I do?roads. Do I get a Golden Fiddle or do I get a... You know what I mean? Like, what do I do? And he was like, fuck Golden Fiddle bitch. Yeah. This is before he dropped out of the race as well. So he was still running for president at that time. I do also think that when he's talking about compassion for the underprivileged, I think that's because he was trying to pivot his presidential campaign

away from the vaccine stuff because he was being seen as a nut then. I do also think he believes it. I think that that economic message is something he truly believes. He wanted to base his presidential campaign around that. But yeah, as soon as he didn't have a presidential campaign, he had to choose between his economic message and his vision for a world without vaccines. And he made that choice pretty clearly. Yeah. Yeah. I would say my, I think Joe's favorite show is to me feels pretty obvious. It was the Donald Trump show. Yeah, yeah, I would say my I think Joe's favorite show is to me feels pretty obvious It was the Donald Trump show. Yeah, he talks about it all the time. He talks about how great it was He talks about how they were trying to suppress it. They were trying to suppress this show

They didn't want you to see this show. I think Joe is really proud that he did this in in in the public eye I think he's very proud that he's he was there to sort of push Trump over the edge. I think that is a feather in Joe's cap. I really do think so. I think that's true. And I think it's true even to the point where I think he has, over time, lied to himself about what that conversation was, about how that conversation went. Because before we watched the Trump episode, he's talked about it to other people saying, well, it was when he came and sit down in this studio and we talked and I just thought, yeah, he's an impressive guy. That really impressed me as to what he was about. And I really got a feel for him and that's when I decided to vote for him.

But when you listen to that interview right from the off, it's really clear that he is on team Trump and he is there to make sure that his audience is on Team Trump. And there is nothing in that whole conversation that could possibly have persuaded him that Trump was a good candidate. Apart from maybe at the end where Trump is just bullshitting him about the things he's seen in the UFO files and the things he's seen in the Kennedy assassination files. And Joe believes that when Trump is saying, oh, the stuff I've seen, yeah, I can understand why they haven't classified it yet because the things I've seen, oh, they'd shock you. And Joe's like, oh my God, there must therefore be something shocking rather than this man

is lying to me just to fill time. So what's next for season two? Season two starts with Stefan Molyneux. That's the first episode. I was able to find the transcript because it's not on YouTube anymore. Oh really? So it's not on YouTube.

We're gonna have to read it? No, so I had to download it. The best part about YouTube is amazing. YouTube does these transcripts and that's what we base our entire note structure off of. We listened and we watched and we type in. So we have the actual text that, well the best approximation of that text.

But Stefan Molyneux, I had to find a downloadable version the actual text that well the best approximation of that text but Stefan Malinou I had to find a downloadable version and then I uploaded it on the back end of YouTube and then I took that transcript that it created and created a note structure with it but I can't we can't play that we can't put that entire episode out there because it's not on YouTube it's not on YouTube it's not on YouTube it's on it's on what that Rumble? Is that where he's on? Rumble or Bitch Shoot I think. It was before. Yeah, Bitch Shoot is one of those.

Yeah, it's the one before. The earliest one that's available is Kara Santa Maria, which I think is episode 539 and everything before that isn't on YouTube as far as I can tell and isn't on his podcast feed either. So I don't know whether that's a specific decision to remove those 538 for content. I don't think it's going to be that. I think it's much more likely that he's changed hosting at some point or something along the lines. Some technical bullshit. It seems, because it's a big block of them from before that time, I suspect it's just

a technical thing, but yeah, I could be wrong. But yeah, it's good that we've got the transcript because what we haven't mentioned is the way that we have to do the show because we're trying to be fairly meticulous in picking up what has actually been said is we go through a transcript of the three, four hour conversation and actually line by line while watching the show pull together, here's a part of this conversation, this paragraph is about this thing. And we're following his transcript through for the full three hours. So we're making sure that we've got every single, every single point and that we're reflecting it as accurately as possible. And that's when we start to do our research

everything. So we have to have this like 30 or 40 page notes document of every word that's ever said on the episode. It's, it's a ridiculous process. Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, maybe we'll figure it out. Who knows? I know from conversations with you Cecil, like this is a meticulously researched show. And it shows when you listen to it as a listener. It really, it does. It shows. And I do want to say it's fucking important. I actually think that this show is important. Like as somebody who does a few podcasts that I'm like,

yeah, if we fell off the map, people would be less entertained. I don't know that people would be, that they're getting something that I think is like important. And that's, I'm not trying to even shit on. I think being entertained has value, but I think this show is important because like that motherfucker reaches out to like a hundred million people or whatever it is. Like that's a, that is an audience that is just massive. And like I have been, every episode I listened to of you guys, that's all the exposure I have to Rogan on a like my ears and his voice level, right?

Cause that guy, I just can't fucking do it. So I get a tremendous insight into that. And like I know how much work you guys put into doing that and being careful about it rather than just reactionary about it. So I think that is like genuinely important work that you guys put into doing that and being careful about it rather than just reactionary about it. So I think that is like genuinely important work that you guys are doing. It could just be us doing a riff track, right? Like we could just do what, you know, there's podcasts out there.

That's what I would sign up for. We listen to this and then we'll play a funny clip and then joke about it. And Tom, you, we've done that with Rogan before. Well, we've also done that with Rogan before. We've played something where like, ha ha ha. But like, there's so much stuff on there that's so much more dangerous once you listen to it fully. You're like, in some ways the gravity of it is something that makes you feel like, fuck, I don't even know if I can joke around about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, in some ways it would be easier if he was a more openly extreme and weird person, but because he's in the mainstream and because he's talking to people that he's delivering into the mainstream, we can't just take the piss. That's the shame of it. Apart from on occasion he's going into some pretty esoteric conspiracy theories. It's fine when he's talking to Terence Howard. It's fine when he's even kind of going into UFOs for the 50th time.

We can have a little bit of fun with that, but yeah, he keeps coming to really serious stuff. Like, oh, here's a guy who is pro Hitler. Let's take this one seriously, shall we? Cool. Yeah. Platforming isn't a problem, though. We definitely don't want to talk about the issue of platforming. Yeah, no, it's exactly that, though.

But there's a great place for that. We record a whole segment afterwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where we kind of take, like, we just do a little bit of taking them down a little bit and making jokes and making each other laugh, where we built Blow Off Steam. And that's for, we do that on the Patreon feed. So we do that every time.

And I think it's, I think that's, it's useful. It's absolutely necessary for us to do this. It's necessary for us to, at the end of it, have a time for us to kid around about it. Because if you don't... It's fucking aftercare, man. Yeah, 100%. 100%.

Marsh, before we let you go, let's talk a little bit about QED. Tell us what's happening with this year. This year's QED is the last one. I plan on being there. I've already got my tickets booked and I'm gonna book my flight. I'll be there for the QED, but tell everybody what's going to happen this October.

Yeah, absolutely. So this is going to be the last QED. So we've been doing QED. We've been putting QED on as volunteers since 2010. So it's like 15 years of our lives. You know, interrupt by a year off here and there and a pandemic here and there. So this is our last ever one. It's going to be the 25th and 26th of October. And we're going to try and make it the best one we can. We want to try and go out with a bang because we've always been told by the people who come that it's the community of QED that makes it feel special. It's the fact that you're there, that the audience feels that they're not just there to be an audience witnessing a conference and then going home. It's much more of a, let's gather together the fun people in the skeptical and atheist kind of adjacent crowds. The people who kind of want to get together,

be part of a community, see who else is out there, share their war stories and share their memories and all this kind of stuff. So yeah, so we're going to try and make this one the best that we can. It's going to be the same stuff you'll know if you've been to QED before. So we'll have a main stage. We'll have like 12 speakers on that. We'll have a podcast room where there'll be live shows. There'll be a panel room where we'll have some really interesting discussions going on. There'll be a workshop room where you can get hands on and learn how to do some stuff. We haven't announced all of the stuff just yet. So you've got to go to qdcon.org to find the latest announcements. But I'm pretty certain this one will sell out. This is our last one. It's going to sell

out. It's going to be a hugely, hugely fun time. And people come from all over the world for it. So it should be an absolute blast. And Cees, I'm looking forward to seeing you there. Tom, I don't know if you're coming. It'd be great to see you there. But if not, then I'll see you the next time I'm allowed in your country, I suppose. We had a great time. That one time we went. So much fun, man.

So much fun. And I know you went back afterwards. I did, yeah. Haley and I went in, I wanna say 2018 or 2019, and we had a great time. We just went just to go. We didn't great time. Like we just went just to go. Like we didn't go to perform or, you know, we just went just to be there because it was so much fun

when you and I went. I was like, oh, we should just go. Like we went and had just like, QED, it is the best of this type of thing. It is like there, it is without peer. It is the best of this type of thing. And there's many good conferences out there. It's just that QED is the best of this type of thing. And there's many good conferences out there. It's just that QED is the best of them all.

It's so funny. I'm often asked to talk about QED and to advertise QED. I think I'm the worst salesperson in the world for QED because I'm so fucking British about it, but I can't be like, yeah, I think it's the best in the world. I think this is greater than anything else anyone is doing like this. I can't do it. But the good thing is the audience does that. The people who come to QED, if you talk to anyone who's ever

been to QED, those are the things that they will say. And it's the fact that the audience are the ones saying that means that I'm comfortable repeating the opinion of the audience. Because if this is just me coming on here, I'd be like, yeah, we do a thing, but you know, you could come if you want. It's all right. I mean, we'd like to see you there. Keep calm and QED on. But it'll be amazing, it'll be a huge amount of fun. If they're gonna find out about QED, where do they go? Yeah, you gotta go to QEDcom.org. So you got your tickets there,

they're 179 pounds for the weekend. There's a free crest, the free childcare. So if you do have childcare, we put on free childcare with professional staff. So we try and do this the right way to make it accessible to everybody who can get there. It'll be a huge amount of fun. So qdcon.org and you'll find all the information and everything we've announced, you'll see there. And if people were going to find our podcast, where would they go? So you can go to knowrogan.com. You can also look for us on YouTube. We do have videos of pretty much all of our episodes recorded live, where we even

put in extra visuals. So we'll refer to a graph and you'll see the graph on the screen so you can see exactly what we're referring to. So you can go for that if you search for KnowRogan on YouTube. But if you go to knowrogan.com, you'll find all the information to see it across all the different podcast players and on Patreon and everything like that there. And that's no with a K. That is no with a K. We're getting, we have no previous Rogan experience and we're getting

to know Rogan. You guys should buy the other domain just in case somebody doesn't buy them. You should buy them both and just direct one to the other. We get, I haven't mentioned this really, but we get messages for Joe Rogan quite often. Do you really? Yeah, so we'll get messages. They use our, they don't realize. I love this.

That they sent us a message. How crazy. Like, I know you guys wouldn't do this because you're both better people than me, which is why you should have this show and I shouldn't. Cause I would 100% read those messages as a skit on air. Like I would 100% be like, oh, we're going to do the mailbag of crazy people emailing Joe Rogan because I can't even imagine what anybody emails Joe Rogan about. I think we may. I'm not going to say we're never going

to use those emails. I think there might be an ethical way to use those emails like sufficiently anonymized in a way that we're taking a piss. I think it is genuinely interesting as to what do people email Joe Rogan about? We're seeing a narrow slice of it and you see what role Joe Rogan plays in these people's lives about how they want attention to this cause. They want themselves put forward for this reason here. Bring me on the show. I can tell you about this. My dad knows all about this. But they also ask for medical advice at times. There's like, what would you do for this thing here? So I think there is, there's maybe going to be some, some value in just doing something with those emails in the future once we figure out the right kind of shape of it. But yeah,

so we get that. We also, I did an interview, uh, for a podcast about email them all back. Try a cold plunge, try a cold plunge. Just make everybody cold plunge all the time. Hey, what would you suggest for hypothermia? Cold plunge, cold plunge, cold plunge, cold plunge is going to be on your seat because you get a cold plunge and you get a cold, I've for mectanode, cold plunge. But it's interesting how people mistake us for Rogan. I also did a podcast interview about the show. It was for a podcast, I forget where it was, in America. And he kept talking about our show like it was a companion to Rogan. Like a CliffsNotes for Rogan.

And he said at one point, oh, is this like the like a companion piece to Rogan? I said, well, yeah, in the same way that methadone is a companion to heroin. And like we are trying to be the methadone of Joe Rogan. That's what we're trying to do. Oh, my God. That's fucking great. That's our new tagline. Oh, my God. The methadone of Joe Rogan. Marcia is awesome having you on.

Yeah, man, I really appreciate it. It's always a pleasure, guys Marcia is awesome having you on. I really appreciate it. It's always a pleasure guys. It's really great speaking to you both. Alright, that's going to wrap it up for this show. Thanks so much for joining us. We are going to be back with a show next week. I don't even know when the show is going to air. But there will be a show unless this is the last thing that the AI is playing before it sends out Skynet

to kill us all. But let me thank Michael Marshall of the MercySide Skeptics, so the Skeptic UK magazine of Skeptics with a K podcast, of the Skeptic podcast, and of the No Rogan Experience. We're going to have links to all his stuff in the show notes. You can find it. We're also going to have links to QED con, which is coming up like he suggested in Manchester, England in October. So if you were going to go, I am going to be there. I will be there. Marsh will be there. We're talking right now to see if there's some way we can put something on a no Rogan

thing. We're still trying to figure it all out because it's such a long show. It's hard to do in a place. In a live setting. In a live setting. But we'll see if we can maybe put something together. We're still talking about it, we haven't decided yet. But definitely I'll be there and I'll be drinking

and come see me and I'll buy you a drink. I'd love to do that. But we will be there, so come check us out there if you're gonna be around, be around in the Manchester area. But we're gonna leave you this week, like we always do, with the Skeptics Creed. Credulity is not a virtue. It's fortune cookie cutter, mommy issue,

hypno Babylon bullshit. Couched in scientician double bubble toil and trouble, pseudo quasi alternative, acupunctuating, pressurized, stereogram pyramidal, free energy healing, water downward spiral, brainogram, pyramidal, free energy, healing, water, downward spiral, brain dead, pan, sales pitch, late night info, docutainment, Leo Pisces, cancer cures, detox, reflex, foot massage, death in towers, tarot cards, psychic healing, crystal balls, bigfoot, yeti, aliens, churches, mosques, and synagogues, temples, dragons, giant worms,

atlantis, dolphins, truthers, birthers, witches, wizards, vaccine nuts, shaman healers, evangelists, conspiracy, double speak, evidential, conclusive. Doubt even this. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, consider supporting us on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash dissonance pod. Help us spread the word by sharing our content. Find us on TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, and Preds,

all under the handle at DissonancePod. This show is CAN credentialed, which means you can report instances of harassment, abuse, or other harm on their hotline at 617-249-4255, or on their website at creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org