Cold Case Files - I SURVIVED: The Hardest Twenty Yards I Have Ever Walked

Episode Date: September 2, 2023

When Amanda, a school teacher, is carjacked and abducted by an escaped inmate, she quickly forms a game plan: play along and stay alive. In order to convince her abductor that they are friends and get out alive, she is forced to make decisions she never thought she would face.  Angi: Download the free Angi mobile app today or visit Angi.com   AMCN: Visit airmedcarenetwork.com and use offer CODE: ISURVIVED when you join

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it was the last thing I tried because it worked. Join over 2 million people who found a better way to lose weight with Golo. Your healthier and happier life begins at Golo.com. That's G-O-L-O.com. Again, G-O-L-O.com. Hi, I'm Caitlin VanMol, host of I Survived. As you may have heard in the past few weeks, we are relaunching season one. We love these stories and are excited for them to reach new audiences. Episode three is Amanda, a teacher just minding her own business on her lunch break. But bad luck put her in the path of a man who would change her life. Amanda is a great example of someone who kept their wits about them in a very stressful situation and made it out alive. But this is also a story of forgiveness and empathy, which you'll hear in episode three of I Survived, The Hardest 20 Yards I Have Ever

Walked. This episode contains sensitive content. Listener discretion is advised. I didn't mind telling people what happened, but I realized really quickly that people were really nervous when I told them. In 2008, Amanda was working as an ESL teacher at a high school in Charlotte, North Carolina. I was not actually really intended to move to Charlotte. I just thought I would go somewhere outside of North Carolina, actually. But I got this internship, and then my aunt and uncle actually lived in Charlotte. I lived with them at the beginning, but at that time, I had a roommate who was my best friend.

She was 24 years old and hadn't been teaching for long, but she loved it. I worked in working with kids for a really long time. So I taught some lessons when I was a kid. And I worked as a tutor in college. And I really liked it. And I really loved my job. I was teaching at a very high poverty school, and I mean, we were like 90% of the students were below the poverty level. So basically, all my kids were from different countries. I had a lot of kids who had limited

formal education in the past, so they hadn't been in a formal school setting before they came to the US. So that was really cool. It wasn't necessarily me as a teacher, but it was just having a teacher that, you know, that cared about them was really important. And it was really a fun experience to have, you know, kids who really wanted to be in the classroom, and I really loved it. School had just resumed after winter break, and Amanda left during her lunch to get some candy for her students as motivation. Just as she was about to return to school, she was approached by a man who would alter the course of her life.

This is I Survived, the podcast where we talk to women who've lived through the worst things imaginable and all the tragic, messy, and wonderful things that can happen after survival. I'm Caitlin VanMol. I walked out of the restaurant where I picked up my lunch, and I'd already been to the store, so I had a bag of stuff in my hands. And I was getting my keys out, and there was a man standing about, I don't know, 20 feet from my car. And he came up and said, Do you know how to get to this location? I think it he came up and said, do you know how to get to this

location? I think it was like Sugar Creek Road. Do you know how to get there? And I said, no, I'm sorry, but very politely because that didn't bother me. I thought, you know, he just wants directions. And I kept on walking to my car. I really didn't feel that threatened. He looked like someone's like fat, middle-aged, white, kind of creepy, but not threatening uncle, just this fat old guy. And then he got a little bit closer and he said, you know, I really need to get to this place. Can you take me? I'll give you $20. And I said, no, I'm a teacher in that school. I have to go back to school. I'm sure you'll find a ride. There's a bus station over there, you know. And he was like, what if I give you $50? And he's getting closer this whole time. And I'm saying,

okay, I don't know. I can't help you. I'm really sorry. I really have to go back to school. And I turned around to get in my car and he says, wait. And then he opened his jacket and he had a gun and it was pointed at me. And he said, get in the car. And as he's pointing this gun at me, he reaches around my driver's side door, which I'd already opened to unlock the passenger side door and pulls the door open. He says, you get in the car, and he motions with the gun, because I really don't want to have to shoot you, but I will. Right after he pulled the gun on me, he said, I need you to drive me. And I was like, okay, I'll do whatever, just don't shoot me. The first few minutes in the car, I was convinced I'm going to die. I just thought,

of all the people I hadn't talked to, of all the things I hadn't done, of just all the people that, you know, I never said, hey, you're really important to me. I thought, you know, when was the last time I talked to my mom? I don't remember. He said, get on the road. And I was shaking so bad. And he said, do not get pulled over or I will shoot you. Angie is your home for everything home, and they've made

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Add AirMed Care Network to your plans. They can help protect your family and your finances. Visit airmedcarenetwork.com and use offer code ISURVIVED when you join. That's ISURVIVED with no spaces. And I was going, I can't drive. Like, I'm thinking, do I try and crash into someone at first? Like, I'm thinking, do I try and wreck the car? Do I try and see if I can wreck it hard enough to hurt him? Do I take a chance and drive?

I was really, my feet were shaking so bad. I thought he's going to take me to some hotel and he's going to do whatever he wants to me and then he's going to kill me. We're driving down the highway and he points to a motel and he says, stop there. That's good. And he said, we're going to go together to the front desk. We're going to check in. You're going to rent me a room for a night. And he said to me at this point, very clearly, if the police are involved, I have just gotten out of prison. I am not going back. I will shoot you. I will shoot them. I will shoot everyone. I will get killed. I don't care. I am not going back to prison. With the man right behind her with the gun, Amanda checked into the hotel. I was so nervous that they were going to notice that this guy had

a gun. And then on the other hand, I was also kind of thinking, like, do I try and signal that he has a gun? I mean, is this my chance? Am I missing my chance? If I don't say something now, is it going to be too late? She decided not to risk it. So we're going into this hotel room, and he's kind of, he opens the door, and he kind of motions me in with the gun. As I'm going in the door of the hotel room, I thought, right before I went in, I thought, do I run? And I thought, what if I try and run and I don't make it? He catches me. Then he's going to be angry and he's going to think I want to run, which I thought is bad. I want him to think everything's cool. I'm going to help him out. I just didn't want him to shoot

me. Then the man, Peter James Smith, started talking to her, telling her about carjacking a man the day before. He's kind of started telling me, you know, I'm running from the police. I think the police are after me. And so, you know, he says, we need to wait this out. We'll just sit here for a couple hours, and I'll call a friend of mine,

and then he's going to pick me up. You're going to go in the bathroom. I'm going to lock you in there. We're going to drive off, and it's going to be fine. And I thought, okay, I can do that. I'm still thinking he's going to shoot me. I mean, in the back of my head, I really thought, he's not just going to drive off. He's going to shoot me.

As they were waiting for this friend of her kidnappers, her roommate Kyle calls her on her cell phone. She was supposed to meet up with him and his friend that was visiting from out of town, for this friend of her kidnappers, her roommate Kyle calls her on her cell phone. She was supposed to meet up with him and his friend that was visiting from out of town, and Kyle thought she stood them up. And my roommate got really mad at me, and he called me, like, I don't know, a whole bunch, and then the kidnapper said, make up something before you answer the phone,

and then make it believable. Like, if you say anything, you need the gun right there. And I was like, okay. So I told him that I was with some student, but, it wouldn't it wasn't a student that I would have been with. And I definitely would not have not called him. Like he kept yelling at me. He was like, I can't believe you would stand me up. And like, this is my friend Jeff.

And you haven't seen Jeff. And like, I've been talking about Jeff for five years. And I remember being like so annoyed because I was like, oh, come on, like pick up on one fact. Peter had just gotten out of prison where he had been since before everyone had cell phones. And he didn't understand that her phone could also send text messages. Amanda texted Kyle what was going on. Kyle panicked, but they agreed they shouldn't call the police as any confrontation with Peter would probably end in a shootout with Amanda caught in the middle. Amanda just had to wait and try to think of something else. I'm waiting. I'm thinking,

you know, this time is going to roll around and he's going to, it's like four o'clock, it was going to happen. This guy was going to call and they were going to come pick him up. So four o'clock happens, this guy calls. He says, no, I'm not coming to get you. And he looks at me and he goes, well, I can't let you go now because I don't know how I'm going to get out of here. I started to cry. And I said, you're never going to let me go. I really want to go home. He got really upset and he started waving the gun around and he said, oh, you know, I'm going to shoot you. You need to stop this. You need to stop this right now. He pulls out of his pocket, this pipe. I looked at it, and I said, oh, my God, like, I don't know what that is.

And I said, what are you doing? And he said, oh, I'm just going to smoke a little crack. It will calm me down. And obviously, you know, he was already kind of panicky, and me panicking was really bad. And so he starts, yeah, waving the gun around. I said, he said, well, I'm going to have to kill you. If you can't help me, if you can't stay calm, then I'm going to have to shoot you. So Amanda formulated a plan.

And I was like, okay, what can I do to prove to you that you can trust me? Because I want to get out of this situation. I don't want you to kill me. I wanted him to not just see me as something expendable, as someone he could just kill or hurt. I wanted him to see me as a person, as his friend. And he looks at me and he said, all right, well, if you smoke this crack, I'll believe that you're not going to tell on me. And I was like, I can't do that. And he sat right next to me and he pointed the gun at me and he

said, if you don't smoke this, I'm going to kill you. And he forced me to smoke crack. Amanda was already so hyped up on adrenaline and just the anxiety of the whole situation. She says she didn't really feel that much of an effect. I think if I were to sit down and do that again today, which I wouldn't, but if I were, it would probably be a really different experience. And I think I was really nervous at the time because it's not like a drug that people do once. And so I was absolutely panicking. I was really nervous at the time because it's not like a drug that people do once. And so I was absolutely panicking. I was like, oh my gosh, you know, what if I do this?

And then I become a crack addict and I do this for the rest of my life. But I don't know. I really don't. I'm sure that it had an effect, but I didn't notice it. But it seemed to ease the tension off the situation, at least slightly. No, he was like totally chill after that. He was basically like oh you're cool now we can be friends because I mean I thought about it a lot after but I think he was just very like things were obviously not going well um you know he kind of backed himself into

a corner and I think that when I was like okay I'll do this with you he was like okay I didn't do a really stupid thing I don't have this kidnapped person in front of me anymore. I now have like a friend. And I think also part of it was like, okay, first he's like, oh my gosh, I have this teacher and she's like very organized and an upstanding person. And what am I going to do with her? And, you know, obviously she's going to, you know, call the cops or whatever on me. And then I think, you know, once I did that with him, he was like, oh, OK, now you did something bad. But if she wanted her kidnapper to keep seeing her as human, she was going to have to see him as one as well. And after a while, it was really clear that, you know, you're sitting there with it's not like a other person who's sitting there, even if they're, you know, kind of a crazy person.

And he would he started talking to me about, you know, all this stuff in his life. And that probably sounds really weird, but I learned so much just from sitting in this room and talking to this guy. So I asked him about what it was like to live in prison. He talked about how he worked in a prison factory where they work and they make license plates. And he was really upset about it because he was like, yeah you you get offered like five cents an hour or something so we talked about that and he talked about like the justice system and like how you know actually he started out doing like petty crime and then he ended up in jail and that's where he got involved in in worse crime because he was like you know i'm in the jail system and there's no like you you get walked away with these much older guys who are like, hey, come do these drugs with us.

I asked him about his kids and he was like, you know, I have a daughter your age. And I was like, aha, we will talk about that. She's a lawyer, which I thought was really interesting. And he was talking about how important it was for him to have a good relationship with her and how it was impossible because he was a criminal and, you know, how she wasn't proud of him. And I don't know, I thought like if I talked about his daughter, it would kind of help. And I remember one point he told me he was like, you know, I just spent the last couple of days doing crack with a prostitute.

But talking to you is way more fun. They also talked about the abduction. He was like, you looked defenseless. That's why I went for you. Like you looked like, you know, like a teacher. Like, I had, like, my little teacher outfit on and, like, my teacher badge. And he was like, you look harmless. Like, I was like, that girl will do what I say. And I was like, you know, I actually have pepper spray. And he was like, look, you sprayed me. I probably wouldn't have done this.

Like, he was like, you know, to be honest, he told me in the end, he was like, the safety was on my gun the whole time. Like, I wasn't going to shoot you. Like, that's what he told me. I mean, I'm not 100% sure that he wouldn't have. They talked for hours. And as he tells her all these maybe true, maybe not true things about his life, and though Amanda is still definitely there against her will, he does seem to trust her. Eventually, it's seven o'clock in the morning and there are no more drugs. And he kind of sobers down a little bit and he looks at me and he says, I have to get out of the state of North Carolina because what I'm

wanted for is a state crime and I have to leave the state. If I leave the state, they won't be looking for me. It's fine. So I said, why don't you take my car? Why don't you just take my car? I won't report it stolen. I'm on your side. I mean, I've already done illegal things. So you have to know I'm not going to tell on you. So you take my car. And then he says, you'd do that for me? He looks at me and he said, you like me that much? And I'm thinking in the back of my head, I don't like you. I just want to get out of here.

But he was just like, oh, that's. And that was really like, then he really said, OK, now I trust you. Before he takes her car, Amanda also suggests they go to the bank and she would get him some money. If I can get him to stay in the car at the bank, if I can get him to stay in the car and I can get him to trust me enough to let me go in by myself, and he won't be able to get me before I can tell somebody what's going on. And so we get to the bank. I said, here are the keys.

I'll be right back. I'm going to go in the building. And I really thought, you know, at this point, he's going to shoot me. He's going to realize. He has to know that no one is this stupid. And I walk into the bank. And that was the hardest, maybe like 20 yards. And it was the hardest 20 yards I've ever walked in my whole life.

And I went into the first office that I saw. It was like on my right, the first office on my right. And I said, there's a guy in my car in the parking lot. I've just been kidnapped. I've been held hostage. You know, you need to call the police. Amanda remembered her kidnapper said that under no circumstances would he go back to jail. So she was concerned he would try to shoot his way out of the situation. tell them, you know, he has a gun. And they were like, okay. And they tased him immediately. When they arrested him, the agents, they were like, you know, no, this guy is very dangerous. And we're actually kind of shocked that you, you made it out of the situation. They were like, really supportive and very, very nice. It was kind of an easy case, I think, because he confessed

right away. And it was very easy for me to say, this guy did something wrong and I did nothing wrong. And I think that's very clear because I'm a teacher and because of my social background, probably because of being white, you know, it's just kind of this, hey, this guy did something wrong and he made me do these bad things. Though her experience with law enforcement was generally positive, she didn't anticipate all the things that would be taken into evidence. Before Amanda made her way into the bank, she had prepared for the possibility Peter would just drive off and she would never see her car again.

So she took all the things she wanted to keep with her. I had like this really weird outfit on because I put on these boots that I had that my friends gave me and had given me for my birthday, which I love. They were like rain boots and they were in the trunk of my car and I was like, I want these boots. So I did not realize that everything that you wear

goes into evidence. So I had on like my best bra, which I was really angry about because they kept it for like three years. They keep your dirty underwear, which was really weird. And they're afraid that like, you're going to like, just in case you file a rape report at some point. And they were convinced that I was going to, because they kept trying to get me, get me to let them do a rape kit when I was in the hospital. And I was like, literally nothing happened. Like, it's cool. Police had Peter Smith in custody. Amanda should have been safe.

But Peter was true to his word that he would do anything in his power to not go back to prison. He was arrested. And then he, like, escaped. So he said he was having chest pains because when they arrested him, they tasered him. So he went, I think he asked to go to the hospital or he pretended to have a heart attack or he actually did have a heart attack.

I'm not really sure. But then he escaped from the hospital. And I remember being like, oh, my gosh, this is really not good. I was really upset because I was like, OK, I told him all this stuff about my family. He knows where my family is, you know, He knows a lot about them. It turns out that he ran to like New York and went and hid with his brother who called the cops on him and said he's here. So then he got shot in the standoff with the cops to get arrested the second time. It would be about a year before the trial started. This left Amanda in kind of a limbo, trying to move on, but knowing this big thing was still pending. But she had a good group of people around her to help her through

it. Just having such a cool family. And so they were like probably super panicked about it. But I think that they did, I think, a really amazing job of not making me feel like that. So my roommate and I were really close. So he was probably like my closest support system. He was just very upset. Like he was like, you know, I didn't notice this was happening. And like, and I had texted him the whole time. So I think I kind of, you know, he was almost more upset than I was at first. Because he was like, oh my God, I thought you were going to die for like the whole time.

And I think that he also needed as much support as kind of I did, but I didn't, it wasn't very easy for me to do that at the time. So. After attempting to work again, Amanda decided to take a leave of absence, but eventually felt too guilty for accepting the pay when another teacher could take her job and help her students. I tried to go back to work way too soon. I was late to work all the time. They called me and they were like, hey, you know, you've been late like five days out of the last 10. And I was like, I think I'm just going to quit. Like, I can't do this right now. And like, it was just this really awkward situation. I was, I kind of just gave

up and I was like, no, I'm out. Like, I went and extended medical leave and then I quit. At the time, I had this idea that they would hire another teacher if I quit because I felt really bad for the kids. And now I know that they don't do that. So I should have just stayed because I lost my health insurance. Without health insurance, finding a therapist was challenging. She had been to one recommended by Victim Services already, but that wasn't going to work out. It was so useless. I went with my roommate together because I was like, I don't know, you know, we both could probably use this.

I mean, she meant well, but she was like, it was like a grandma who was like, you'll be fine. But she wasn't like, she was just more like shocked about the story than she was helpful to us. She wasn't a trauma therapist. I think she was like, like a family therapist.

I don't know why they sent us to her. Without any professional help, Amanda says she made a mess out of her life. Her relationship wasn't going well. She had moved in with him, but they fought all the time, and she just needed someone to talk to. One day I was just like, I remember I was really upset. And I was like, I want to go to therapy. So I called this like, Women's Crisis Center or something. It was like for, for women. I think it was like, I want to go to therapy. So I called this like women's crisis center or something. It was like for women. I think it was like for domestic abuse, actually.

But I told them the story and they were like, cool, it's free. You just have to get a driver's license with your address of this county. So I remember going to the driver's license office and I was so upset. And like the picture they took of me, this is my license picture for the next years. It was horrible. I looked like a mugshot. It was horrible. But the barriers had been removed and she could get picture for the next years. It was horrible. It looked like a mugshot. It was horrible.

But the barriers had been removed and she could get the help she needed. The woman was amazing. She was really, really cool. She usually did domestic abuse and stuff like that. So she was more, I think, a better therapist. I feel like she really understood me as a person. Like maybe that has to do with kind of the first therapist was obviously not the right therapist. You have to click with them on a personal level. And I think that that was just the biggest difference is she was just much more my kind of person. And that really, really helped. And I did that until right before I moved to Germany. Amanda had already been thinking of moving abroad before the attack.

She had spent parts of the summer in high school doing a sort of unofficial exchange program. Her father worked for IBM and had a colleague in Germany with a daughter Amanda's age. Amanda would go visit them in Germany for a few weeks, and then both girls would go back to the States for a few weeks. I thought I spoke much better German than I did because I had been like seven years since I'd, maybe not seven, but it's been a while since I'd been to Germany and really spoke German. First thing I did when I came here was moved in with my friend's parents. I called them and I said, hey, can I, you know, come with you guys for a little bit? Like, I just thought a couple of weeks. And they're like, no, you're going to stay as long as you

need to stay until things are better for you. And at the time, the guy I was dating came with me, but he only lasted about a year and a half. He didn't really learn German, and you can't really make it in Berlin if you don't speak German and don't have like a really marketable skill. Luckily for Amanda, she spoke German and was a teacher. So after a lot of searching, she found a job teaching kindergarten. Though Amanda was rebuilding her life in Germany, she would have to return to North Carolina for the trial. Explaining why she had to leave this job for an undetermined amount of time was a bit of a challenge. I think I just told them I was like, I was subpoenaed. So I think I was just like,

I'm subpoenaed. I was, I'm a witness in the case. Don't fire me. I'll be right back. Amanda stayed with her aunt and uncle during the trial, which turned out to be a bit of a spectacle. People coming from all over the courthouse just to watch this trial because this guy was so crazy. He kept like ripping his stitches out and like he dragged the trial out for like four weeks, which I thought was kind of horrible because they flew me from Germany to the trial. Peter James Smith was convicted on two counts of kidnapping. He kidnapped a man a few days before he took Amanda. Two counts of carjacking, possession of a firearm by a felon, and two counts of using a firearm in the commission of a carjacking and kidnapping. He was sentenced to 59 years in prison. And I think at the time, like I got really angry about all the, you know, about

the financial situation I was in because I ended up in debt because, you know, I quit my job and I ended up not working for quite a while. And I think that I got really angry and I was like, yeah, he should go away forever. You know, he did a bad thing. But honestly, I think, no, I don't think it's a fair sentence for what he did I think the problem was that he went to jail in the first place I mean if this guy hadn't been in prison for a stupid drug offense to begin with would he have kidnapped me it's kind of my question I don't know I don't know that he was I don't think he was a bad guy at heart I think he was just a crappy student who liked to do drugs and gotten with the wrong people. And I don't know, having worked with kids that, you know, make bad choices.

I mean, I should probably say he passed away. So he passed away a couple of years after the sentencing. They sent me a letter, actually. It was really weird. It was just a letter. And they were like, you know, he died. And so I filed the victim's compensation report, which you can do when you're the victim of a crime. And I tried to get money back. And when they sentenced him, they actually sentenced him to pay me a lot of money as well. He owed me technically like a lot of money, but they were like, you're never going to see it because,

you know, I got this letter and they were like, hey, you know, we're settling the case because he's dead. So there'll be no more money. So here's like a one time payment of like, I think it was like a thousand dollars or something, which was cool at the time because I was not expecting it. I was like, oh, I get money. But yeah, it was kind of I didn't really know how I felt about it because I had always meant to write him a letter and just be like you know I'm sorry for your life being so shitty I kind of wanted to write to him and be like hey you know I'm sorry I was like really angry and I think it's fair to be really angry when that kind of thing happens to you and like you know I'm not mad that I was angry but like I'm not mad at you anymore like we're cool and I never did. And I really felt bad about it. And I actually felt really bad. And my family was like really kind of upset. They were like, Oh, this is like

Stockholm syndrome. And I'm like, no, he's a person. Like it's not, it's not that he like made me like him. It's just that I feel bad for him. I think I would feel bad for anybody. I think it comes to, I mean, I worked with these kids in the school system and I really feel like when I looked at him, I saw a lot of the kids that I worked with, if they continued to make the choices, like all it takes is one bad choice. And then the kids that I would work with, they would end up in the system. And they would feel like, and they would always tell me, I don't see a future. A lot of times it was just like, you know, my life is so shitty. Nobody cares about me. None of these teachers care about me. And that's how a lot of them felt, you know, why should I even try?

And, you know, you hear that and then you meet somebody who's at the other end of that path. And you just think like, I mean, that was for me, I think a really, I think if I had not, if I hadn't met those kids and heard their stories and experienced that, I would not have felt the way I did about this guy in that situation. I think it's like a direct, you know, like the kids were like at the beginning and he was at the end. And it was just like, I could see how easy it would be. Today, Amanda works as a consultant, helping German business people understand how to work with Americans. I met this woman whose kid went to the kindergarten. We started doing some work together in intercultural stuff because that was kind of what I was originally doing, you know, kind of in the U.S. And eventually I ended up joining her company with the two other women.

She really loves Germany. And having been kidnapped at gunpoint, a big perk for her is that there are very few guns there. You have to do a lot of things to get a firearm. It's just, it's really important to me that like, if I had had a gun in that situation, I'm 100% sure that I would be dead. I'm pretty sure that no matter how good I was, if I pulled a gun, when someone already had a gun, you would have shot me like there's no reason not to, you know, if you, you know, if I pulled a pepper spray out of my purse, you might have shot me who knows, you know, like, and I really feel like people in my family have been like, you know, I have some family from Arkansas,

and they're like, no guns are great. And if you had had one, I was like, if like, you know, I have some family from Arkansas and they're like, no, guns are great. And if you had had one, I was like, if I had had one, I'd be dead. Like, I really honestly, a hundred percent believe that. Amanda made it through being kidnapped, forced to smoke crack and nearly being killed. And she wouldn't have made it through it if she hadn't befriended her attacker. Sometimes you're in a really crappy situation, but there's usually a way out of it. If you take a deep breath and you're like, what do I have to work with? Sometimes there's enough stuff there to work with, even though it doesn't seem like there will be. I don't know. I guess the only other thing would be like, it definitely, definitely gets better. I mean, you know, looking now in the back, I don't remember the bad stuff. I just

remember the weird, funny, and interesting thing. I learned so much about myself. You can always see it in a positive way. Like there is something good to get out of it. I'm Caitlin VanMol, host and senior producer. Our audio engineer is Kelly Kramer. Our producer is Scott Brody, and our executive producer is Ted Butler. Special thanks on this episode to McKamey Lin. I Survived was originally produced by NHNZ. To hear more I Survived, please subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. Lee. Listen to my new podcast, Salty with Captain Lee. Um, don't you mean our podcast? Uh, yeah, I guess I do. Anyhow, listen to Salty with Captain Lee, co-hosted by my assistant, Sam. And we will be talking about the latest pop culture news and all the gossip every week. So does this mean we have to talk by ourselves, about ourselves, or can at least

have some guests on? I don't know, I find myself pretty interesting, but yeah, we can have some guests on. Some of our reality TV friends and some stars. Works for me. Listen to Salty now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.