Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Ben Stiller

Episode Date: April 1, 2019

Actor, writer, and director Ben Stiller feels excited to be Conan O'Brien's friend, but he isn’t holding his breath.Ben and Conan sit down this week to chat about growing up in show business, getting the finger from strangers, returning to Saturday Night Live, how Ben came into his latest project Escape at Dannemora, and being able to make yourself laugh. Plus, producer Matt Gourley shows off a piece of true presidential memorabilia.Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone].For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.This episode is sponsored by Twix, Stamps.com (www.stamps.com code: CONAN), and State Farm (1-800-STATE-FARM), Article (www.article.com/CONAN), and Hair Club (www.hairclub.com/CONAN).

Hi, my name is Ben Stiller, and I feel excited, yet I'm not holding my breath about being Conan's friend. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I just feel like maybe the ship has sailed. Hello there, and welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. This is the podcast where I search for friends in the world. It's a pretty natural thing to do, and it's working so far. I've made a bunch of friends, very excited about it. I'm joined in my quest by my trusty assistant, Sonomo Sessian.

Hey, Sono. Hi, Conan. And Matt Gorley, the producer extraordinaire. Hi. How's it going? Good. This is an exciting one. We've talked to a lot of incredible people so far.

This gentleman, I met him on Star Night Live way back in the day. He remains one of the funniest people. Ben Stiller. This is terrible. I wanted to start out on a positive note. No, no, this is, I'm not holding my breath, but not in a negative way. No, I feel like I want to be your friend. I do want to be your friend.

I don't see what the hindrance is. Well, I feel like it just hasn't happened yet, and we've known each other kind of, like for like, what, like maybe 30 years? Well, I wanted to get into it. We've known each other a really long time. I mean, is it 30 years? I feel like it's 30 years. Like, I feel like it's back to SNL.

Yes, I can tell you exactly the first time I saw the image of Ben Stiller. I was at Star Night Live, and this tape came in, and it was, I think we heard that this new guy might be coming. I don't know if this is 1989, 88, somewhere around there. This tape came in, and all I knew, all I heard was, you got to see this, you got to see this, and I watched it, and it was you doing a Tom Cruise that you had made, and it was a take-off. And I know, I remember Color of Money being in there. Was it all Color of Money, or was it other scenes too?

No, it was a take-off on the Color of Money called the Hustler of Money, and it was about bowling instead of pool, and it was a short that I made with, I was in a play, a play called The House of Blue Leaves that was running, I guess at that point it was on Broadway. It started at Lincoln Center, and John Mahoney, and Julie Haggerty, and Suzy Kurtz, all these people were in the cast, and it was, the play was a big success. I had a small partner, it was like my first job, and I got everybody in the cast to be in this little spoof that I made, and then I, and then got it on SNL somehow. It was.

I remember it exactly where it was, it was back in the writer's room, and there was a big, clunky VCR, and someone had it like a 35-inch tape. It was back in the day. We had this giant brick, and we fed it in, and it was hilarious. It was hilarious. I remember you captured this, it must be out there somewhere, but you capture this face that Tom Cruise makes, this sort of joyous, cocky face. Yeah, his sort of, yeah, his thing.

His trademark. His thing that he was doing in that, and especially in that movie where he was, all those scenes where he was playing pool, and kind of doing, I think he did some pool cue tricks. Yes, yes, and he's acting like the nun chucks. I might be confusing it with cocktail. No, no, no, he's acting like, yeah. This was the phase of his career where he took mundane items, and treated them like nun chucks.

Yeah. And some juggling training had come in to play there. Yeah, exactly. He played an obstetrician, just throwing babies around, and, um. Exactly. So I saw that, and then you came in, and one of the first things that you did, it was your creation, was you played the actor who played Eddie Munster as a kid, and you played him. He's grown up, but my favorite thing is, and he's bitter, and he's world weary, grown

up star, but he still dresses as Eddie Munster. That was the character. Bitter, drunk guy, Eddie Munster. And he still dresses, which is the most emasculating thing an adult could wear. I feel like that's the, you know, that's sort of the struggle that I think the actors have to, you know, where you're sort of trying to disavow who you are, but also it is who you are, too. You know, and I think that's something that, it's hard, right?

Like in celebrity, I feel like that's the thing. So it's probably hard because that was part of who he was. I'm trying to analyze Butch Patrick here. As young. I'm sure he really appreciates that. Butch Patrick, if you're out there, comment. That was the theory behind the character. Yeah, yeah.

It was so, and then I could just see, you had really funny ideas, but your commitment, your commitment, and you were very precise about the things you were doing. If you were doing Tom Cruise, it was very well-observed and very precise, and you're doing, you know, this grown-up Butch Patrick who's bitter about playing Eddie Munster, but he dresses Eddie Munster. It was very precise. And I remember thinking, because starting out live, it can be hit or miss at times. You know, it's a very, it's vaudeville.

You know, it's vaudeville and it's live. It's live. Yeah. And I remembered when you. That's the, that was the daunting thing for me was the live performing aspect, because I wanted to make short films. That was what I thought. You wanted control.

It wasn't control. I just didn't feel I was as good doing live performing as I was if I could have a few takes and I could, you know, make, I wanted to, Albert Brooks was who I wanted to be. Yes. And he was the, he's the, the white whale, you know, like many people are chasing. And what was interesting to me is that you, you left SNL and you do the Ben Stiller show. And the minute that show came out, I thought, yes, here you can have your laboratory where you can get it just the way you want.

You can make short films. You can get things exactly the way you want them. Yes. And that was, yeah, purely because that was the only way I really knew how to do it. I never, because I didn't think of myself as a comedic performer really. I wanted to be, I didn't know, you know, I was trying to figure it out, I think. It's funny because I think now people would think of you as a comedic performer. Obviously you're, you're branched out and, but I'm not like a funny guy, like I've never

felt, I've said this many times, I've read it back in an interview like this. I'm not a funny guy. I don't think I'm funny. And I know that sounds like, what does that mean? You know, like obviously I do comedies or I've been in comedies, but I've never felt like I'm a self-generating comedic entity. Right. You know, that's not, and I love, I love comedy, but I guess, I guess I think for a lot of

people listening that would be a surprise because it's such a fine line between, you've been so funny. I want to talk to some critics. Well, I don't know. Well, actually we brought some here. Yeah, bring them on. Come on in. No, I mean, I, it's just, it's a thing that I've kind of like tried to figure out over

the years because I always love making movies and I love directing and I, I love directing comedy too. I love working with funny people. Yeah. So, you know, then actually having to be the guy who was sort of like the center of it. While it was fun as an actor to do it, I never really, it was never really my focus. Like that wasn't my dream as a kid. It wasn't what, yeah, it wasn't your, your passion.

So I remember, you did the Ben Stiller show, I go off in my direction, I work on The Simpsons. And I'm doing the late night show and you really early on started coming by the late night show. And it was fantastic because you would do these fully conceived bits that you would commit to. So you were known and famous as Ben Stiller, but you would come on and fully commit to the fact that you were in a revival of Jesus Christ Superstar with Jeanine Guroffalo. And you would, what I loved about it was that there was never any winking or any, you were,

no, this is what I'm doing now. And then you and Jeanine, and you had worked out this whole song called What's the Buzz? And you're so passionate. What's the buzz telling me what's the happen? Jesus Christ Superstar fans? I'm obsessed with that show. It's because my dream would be to play Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, except I can't sing or dance and you acting questionable.

So no, I mean, I, but I, so that was a chance. First of all, you let us do it. Oh yeah. So here was this person who we knew who was basically like one of us who was hosting his own show, which was the amazing thing. That was like the crazy thing. It was like, oh my God, Conan is doing this. He's doing it for real.

And he's going to let us do this weird crazy bit. Yeah. I remember consciously thinking, I don't know how long I'm going to get to do this because at the time people thought this isn't going to last and they're going to, they accidentally gave this guy a show and so let's do all the things that with our friends that we really want to do. And you kept coming back. It was amazing.

I mean, it was amazing. You were letting us do it. Oh, I was, I mean, it worked for me too. I just was delighted. You came back and you did a musical parody of Stomp, I remember and you did a number called like out from the show, Clunk, it was this whole, and I haven't looked at that stuff since we did it. No, I haven't either.

But I bet it holds up. And you've got members of the blue man group to be in the bit. Yes, that's right. And so everything was really technically worked out. And I just couldn't believe how much work went into all these things. It was a lot of work doing those things. It was, I mean, but it was, I remember thinking it was, at that time, that was, it was fun to do that.

Yes. To engage and do that. And I think also probably like better than having to sit and talk and actually be a person. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. You could hide. Yeah.

And try to be funny in that way. What's interesting is I remember very clearly that you would come and do bits and a couple of other people over the years would come and do bits who were very good at doing it. The problem was other people would see that and they would show up at our show who weren't, it wasn't their forte. And they would show up and they'd go, we saw what Ben did. So what I want to do is I want to play a character named Mr. Muffin and you're there talking to Sylvester Stallone.

Can you name the actor? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't Stallone, was it? No, it wasn't Stallone. I mean, I, I'd have to really think about it and, and it isn't even worth throwing certain people under the bus, but it was people who didn't have comedy chops who would come by and say, um, I've got a thing where I'm a scarecrow who's got a machine gun and it's

going to take 10 minutes and the, and then you have to be a Russian woman. And I'm like, oh my God, no. And they'd be like, well, Ben Stiller gets to do this on your show. They were like serious actors, right? People who thought they could be, I think, you know, like doing that, it's such a, like I even look back now thinking about that because I would never want to do that now. Right. Because it's taking such a chance and having to put yourself out there in a way that you

just have to really kind of not even be thinking about it that much and just want to have fun doing it, right? And there are people who are brilliant at doing it, you know, people who are like really brilliant at doing it, like Andy Kaufman and people like that, who, that was what, you know what I mean? They took it to a whole other level. I also think, and there might get about, maybe I'll have people that listen to this and disagree, but I think there's a period in your life when you're a certain age and

you're hungry for a certain kind of thing. For sure. I was reading the old Playboy interview with John Lennon in 1980, this, and it's, it's a book and it's this really long exhaustive interview and at one point there's, the guy keeps asking him, well, do you think your work now, you know, could you churn out that kind of work today in 1980? And he said, you know, I'll never be that young and hungry again. Yeah.

And I feel like sketch comedy is that world, you know, you have to be one like that. Yeah, exactly. Something about when I, you had, you had Middle Ditch and Schwartz on Middle Ditch, so funny. They are fantastic. And they have that, you know, they have that energy and they have that, I mean, and they're just so, I saw them at Carnegie Hall. Did you see the Carnegie Hall show? I did not.

No. Actually Lin-Manuel Miranda was there and he said, he said that they literally just did a perfect three act play and they did. And yet how do you, like how do you have the energy and the, the, just the, the balls really to do that? I mean, it's just to go out there. Well, that's the thing is I, I hear about, I was getting tired listening to Middle Ditch and Schwartz talk about how much intensity and work goes into it because I was thinking,

yeah, that's, I was like that. I was in my, in my twenties and thirties, I would, but you were, you had to be like that. I mean, at SNL or places, I was always putting myself in situations where you had to be like that. But even before SNL, when I was doing improv, I had the energy to go and do improv here in LA in like the basement of a Scientology Center with Lisa Kudrow before either of us had a real gig and the energy to try and push myself. And I'm going to work all day writing a comedy and then I'm going to go out at night and

I'm going to, I'm going to try and create this magical improv world. I'm sure we were insufferable. Right. But you took it kind of seriously. Oh yeah. That's the thing that is the biggest disconnect for some people in the world of, they see people do comedy and they think, oh, they must just be goofy, fun people. And as we both know, if you've seen Steve Martin's work and then talk to Steve Martin,

you know that they're deadly serious and that people that take it really seriously often, they're funny, but they're also very, very serious about, I got to get this right. Yeah. And that, I mean, that's the, I think the struggle. I don't know. I always, I'm just taking it back to me to talk about myself because that's why we're here. Yeah.

Let me just, I'm just trying to see what the name of the podcast, I don't see your name here. This is why I'm not holding my breath. Conan O'Brien. Okay. Well anyway. No, I'm just saying that I feel like I've always felt like there's a pressure or the pressure to be funny and it's hard to, you know, like that's the thing, like people,

when you're making comedies as a, like as a director too, it's the same thing where people don't like, as the movie, you can make this incredibly nuanced, you know, with the production value and cinematography and all of it. And if it's a comedy, the bottom line is the audience wants to laugh and that's how they're judging it. And they shouldn't not because that's why they came to the movie. They want to, you know, so it's a comedy, I want to laugh. And I've always found that to be almost tougher than anything.

And it's, it's great when it works and you strive for it and you have to work really hard for it. Though there are people and you were talking about it with them that it just like, it just flows and like, Hey, let's have fun. Let's just go out there and have fun. And I love that attitude, but it's almost like a joke. Even at SNL, I hear people like, they joke about it, go, let's just go out there and have fun.

You know, like 30 seconds before you go live on the air and it's like after the grueling, you know, 90 hour week or whatever they spent to get to that point and everybody's exhausted. And then it's like, Hey, let's just go out there and, you know, let's just play around. My head writer, whenever I go out at night, he just says, and he does it to, it's his way of saying, of getting on, getting on my nerves. But what he does every night is just as I'm about to head out, he goes like, Yeah, no, just get out there and have fun. Just go have some fun.

And it's kind of his way of saying, go fuck yourself. You know, like it's very, he knows it bugs me. He knows I don't like it. But yet you do, right? You do have to have fun. You have to. They can tell when you're not. And that's what was amazing to me about what you do is like, you have to go out there every

night, no matter what is happening in your life and be a certain way that has to be authentic. Otherwise people aren't going to feel it. So I don't know how you do that. Medication helps. That's not actually not a joke, but this format seems to me like, I feel like you don't have to worry about anything getting in your way of being funny, except possibly me right now. No, no, no. I also, what I like about the format is I love talking to people in general, but I really

like talking to people I admire who, who do work that I admire. That's the concept. That's really all it is. I've also feel like people bring just listening to the podcast, that people bring different things out of you, you know, like you with Jeff Goldblum, you kind of take on this Goldblumian sort of. I do have a, I do have a, I do have a thing where I a little bit become the person I'm talking to.

And when you're with Jeff Goldblum, it's before long, you're going, I know, there's a lot of mmm and everything is sexual and it's so good. And you know what? This is true. My, my, my wife's mother who lives in Seattle, I think she got a little rattled about it. And she's like, well, it was, it seemed there was something sexual going on. She was like, mom, mom, that's his joking around. I was like, well, I, I mean, that's, that's fine.

But I mean, I just hope, I think there was, there was definitely something sexual. You were talking about, there was a homosexual love affair between the two of you. But I just think it'd be really funny. I think my, my mother-in-law was worried that I was going to leave her daughter for Jeff Goldblum. Right. Which could be, it's possible because he is, he has an amazing closet of clothes. That would fit me.

So that would be a big plus right there. He does. That's right. You guys are about the same. We're about the same height. That's the basis for any strong relationship. It's wearing a chunk. That's why I married my wife.

Yeah. That's right. Her clothes fit me and I like enjoying wearing them. You know, there's something that, there's something that you experienced is very different from what I experienced is you grew up in show business. Yes. You grew up with your parents, this iconic comedy team and you grew up with that. And I'm wondering how does that influence as you're coming along, were you looking at

what your parents are doing still or Amir and saying, okay, I, I like this aspect of it, but I don't like that aspect or I, I want to be doing what they're doing or I don't want to be doing what they're doing. I love what they do, but I want to go my own way. How did that all work out? Yes. Very nice. Because my dad was a microbiologist.

My dad and is, is a microbiologist. That's amazing. So different. Yeah. And I, um, there was never a second where I thought, yep, I'm going into the old microbiology game. I just knew that that wasn't going to happen. So I just, I never experienced that.

I never had the chance to know what it was to not be in a show business family, right? Which I, I think is, I have this sort of weird, um, not obsession, but I really am interested in the suburbs and normal, like quote unquote, normal life because I'd never had that in my childhood. Cause you're in New York city. Yeah. Upper west side. Yep.

Um, 1970s. Uh, yeah. And parents were doing nightclubs or doing plays. They were doing variety shows. They're doing game shows. They were going out and like playing Harrah's and Reno and, you know, just, it just very, it was a very, um, you know, show business life. Were you backstage when this is all happening?

Backstage all the time, uh, much more interesting to me than my real life, than school, I had issues at school. I didn't, I didn't like being at school. I wanted to be out on them, you know, like going, like my parents were doing a series for HBO. I wanted to go hang out on the soundstage and watch them do that, which probably wasn't healthy for me as a kid, you know, cause I wasn't interacting with kids my own age. Right.

Or I was, but I wasn't doing it in a way that was, uh, you know, I was, I was just wanting to be, it just seemed more interesting to me. I mean, my mom would do, uh, sitcoms like Rhoda, you know, the spinoff, the Mary Tyler Moore show. And I come out in the summer with her. She had her own show for a sear, uh, season, uh, where she played a lawyer called Kate McShane. It's like an hour drama.

And I remember being on the paramount back lot and just, just eating it up, loved it. And you must have seen famous people of that era. Definitely. Yes. You know, stars of that era just seemed so much bigger now. That's just what happens. It's an optical illusion, but it was, and also when you're that age, that they're just, I mean, it, and I was a Star Trek fan and so, you know, to see William Shatner or remember

meaning LeVar Burton, right after Roots had happened, cause she was on the $10,000 pyramid with LeVar Burton. Oh my God. Nipsey Russell. Yeah. I mean, um, just, it was, uh, Burke Convy. I mean, there was all sorts of tattletales. This game show my parents did, it just, it was, I remember it so vividly cause it was,

the colors were so bright in the, even just walking on this, into this soundstage here, that it reminds me of my childhood because that was what it was. These were the places that they were coming in and still has the same smell, the, the, the soundstage. Then we haven't claimed this thing in since tattletale didn't sound poetic. No, no, but it's, it's, uh, it's true that you, I mean, maybe that's good in a way because you kind of fell in love with it, but it also demystified it a little bit maybe when you were growing up.

So that maybe, I mean, I feel like I was, it was strange, like, uh, like when my parents did tattletales, I remember getting really upset when they didn't win because there was, they would play for the audience and they would, they would divide up the audience. They had like the banana section and the, the green section and the, you know, red section. And if they lost, the audience didn't win money. And I remember literally crying, being upset because I was embarrassed. When my parents didn't win, I know, and Patty Duke and John Astin were comforting me. And of course, yeah, John Astin, the father on the Addams family, which was the show opposite

the Munsters, uh, co-starring Butch Patrick, and on that, we're going to take a little break. We started, the whole Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend thing is just a way, it's just a silly way in, but it really quickly became connecting with people who I really admire, who I've, who I've worked with over the years, but we're always so busy and we're always going different ways. And then you sit down with them and you get to have this conversation, I'm like, I'm having the conversation with Ben Stiller that I've always wanted to have, but we're always so

we pass each other and it's like, hey, man, how you doing? Hey, good, good. Okay. Hey, take care. Hug, you know, hug, and then SUV, you know, especially when it's before a show or after a show. And then they just crazy, you know, it's always like coming here after the show, after you guys have done your show, there's a weird kind of like post-show energy.

You can tell something just happened. Yeah. You know, and there's that thing where I think your adrenaline's up, especially if you're going to have to go and do a talk show. But yeah, I know, I feel that too, because over the years, I feel like we've seen each other a lot and we've, you know, maybe seen each other on a plane or, you know, wherever it is or, you know. Yeah.

But I follow you around a lot too. I've sensed that. I have sensed that. I have your people told you, but I'm, yeah, it's not noticeable at all. No, I know. You and I, you and I hanging out. I just blend right in. But I, you know, I do think it's sometimes hard to connect though with people like that

because I always felt this weird, like just call someone up, like if I was, and we, this is like you joke about it and joke about it in the little intro, but like to actually call you up afterwards and say, Hey, but seriously, let's hang out. No, but that I would be, I would, it would be hard for me to do that. Yeah. Now. Okay. Let's talk about, are you, we don't have to talk.

I don't know. No, no, no. This is just in general. Do you think you're a shy person? No, I don't think I'm shy. I think I'm, you know, I'm insecure. I think. Yeah.

I'm going to be honest. This is getting really. No, no. But I mean, I mean, that's, this is. Yeah. Lost. Yeah. I, but I do feel like I'm not, I, I don't feel like I'm not one of those people like

we can walk into like a room and go, Hey, you know, just like into a party and feel like cool going into a party. I don't know. Alone. Like I want to go into a party with somebody else. I think only a jerk can walk into a situation and be completely confident. Yeah. I, I think that's more common than you would think.

I noticed that if we order something on Postmates and I have to go to the door and get the food that my wife ordered, that my wife ordered on Postmates. When I'm opening the door, I'm feeling a little nervous about talking to the person. And my, my job is to greet people on television in front of a studio audience and greet them and sit them down. I'm a little worried about how's this going to go with the Postmates guy. Right. And I have.

That's a good thing though. Yeah. But I think that that's, I don't know. I always check myself a little before I go into a party and I'd rather be there with someone. Right. But I wouldn't say that like, I do like to go to parties sometimes, you know, I'd like, I think it's exciting sometimes to meet people and, you know, and to, and to be in that sort

of atmosphere. I think it can be fun, but I also, it never, it never usually ends up exactly as I think it's going to. Right. I usually end up like at a certain point where I'm just standing alone wondering why no one else is talking to me. So you're standing there alone. Are you holding it?

But you know that thing in a party where it's not, it's not like intentional. It's just like you've, somebody else talked to somebody else and all of a sudden you're just there and you're trying to just like act like you belong at the party and it's your drink or whatever. Right. And then you have to, I mean, I think that's why the cell phone is the greatest invention of all time because you can always pull out your cell phone. Exactly.

And act like you got a call. And sometimes I've been in an airport and I'm not with anybody and I'm standing alone and then I get self-conscious that I'm standing alone. It may look weird to people and then I may seem a little vulnerable. So I take out my phone and I start talking until my wife comes back from the bathroom wherever she was. And I have these fake calls and I really will, I just wish I could press record some time on them because I'll really commit to the call.

Who do you talk to? I just say things like, what's that? No, no, no, no. Tell him that's out. That's out. There's no way. And then I say all this stuff. It's just crazy babble.

And Sony, you've been around me when I do this. He really does that. He does. I mean, even not just on the phone, but when we're in an elevator, you'll be like, yeah, and that's the time I scored the winning touchdown. Other people are in the elevator. Totally babbling. But I'll be on the phone and I'll say things like, no, no, no, no, we're not going to do

that. Oysters is the wrong way to go. We're not doing oysters. I'll tell you something. You tell Pellaman. No, tell him. Tell him. Tell Pellaman.

If he wants to do it, I'll get there. But he better have the pneumatic with him and it's all... Pellaman. That's a specific thing. And if you say really specific stuff, no one would think you're ever making that up. And all I've ever wished is that I have some recording of that. Of you making that stuff up. It's foolishness.

I mean... I don't do that. I don't go that far. I will pull out my phone. I find in elevators, it's really tough for me. I find it very awkward in elevators. Just to be standing alone and then people come in. Even if they recognize you, don't recognize you, just standing in a space with people

for a certain amount of time. It's weird no matter who you are and then you add to it, people are going to know who you are. Right. If they get into an alleyway. Well, that's the other factor that, yeah, then you can sort of like, this kid gave me the finger today. What?

Who gave you the finger? A kid gave me the finger. Wait. But why? I was visiting a college with my daughter. Yeah. Yeah. I can talk about this here.

Yeah. This kid, I was just... This kid just was like... We were leaving the college. It was a nice visit and this kid, he's like maybe 19, didn't have like, it wasn't edgy looking or anything. He just was like sort of like normal. He looked at me and he just went like this.

He gave you the finger? Yeah. And I literally, I did like a double take. I was like, oh, okay. But there is no reason for someone to give Ben still... I represented something. Ben stiller represented something to him. And I literally like, I didn't know how to react because I wasn't expecting it.

And I sort of leaned into it a little bit because I was walking in and I said, hey, hi. Hi. Like I just wanted, I guess my... Want to connect. Yeah. I was like, I just... I saw it. Like I wanted him to know that I saw it.

He didn't keep a party with me. Did he keep a party with me? Bribery scandal? Yeah. That's what I'm wondering. I don't know what he was thinking. Was he thinking, oh, Hollywood entitled actor gets in getting their kids into school? Something like that.

But he wasn't edgy. He had like a lacoste shirt on. And then so I said, hi, hey, how you doing? And he's still holding the finger up. And then he's like, and I could tell he got nervous and he said, he started kind of babbling. I said, I just wanted to be able to say that I did that. What? And then he said, but I also want you to know that I'm a really big fan of your work.

Thank you. What? You know what? And yeah. And I think he did probably went back to his friends and said, you know, that he gave me the finger. I don't know if he said the second part of it. I think he edited it.

But first of all, but it was, it was one of those things are like, I couldn't take it. It did hurt me a little bit, I have to say. Of course it did. But then I was also like, why? What is his like? What is he? I'm like the man, like maybe I'm, you know, or I'm the guy from this thing or that thing or I suck.

I don't know. But now he's going to hear this and go. I don't think he'll hear that. He might. And then he's going to go like, that's why I did this. Now it's legit. Yeah. Now more people are going to give me the finger.

If he was wearing a little cost shirt, eventually he will hear this. It will be sponsored. It's just like, oh, I want to tell people I gave Ben Stowe the finger. Yes. And, but they don't know that you're going to spend, if you hadn't had that conversation with him, I'm guessing you would have thought about that many times or over the next few months. Yes.

And you would have thought, are people starting to. Yes. What, right. Am I, do I represent that? Am I a bad thing? We did a completely silly, harmless reference joke once on our show. And I'll actually use the real name because I love the guy, Nathan Lane. This was maybe, I don't know, 15 years ago or something.

It was the old late night show. And we did some just completely silly joke where we just needed the name of anybody and a writer just threw in Nathan Lane, but it was nothing bad about Nathan Lane. It was nothing. It was just, we needed a name for something. And someone threw in, oh yeah, Nathan Lane stole a tractor, you know, something that was completely random. And the next thing I heard later on, I heard, well, they went to book Nathan Lane and we

heard from his people that, well, he thinks Conan's mad at him. And I was like, what? And what happened was someone had just seen that I just mentioned Nathan Lane's name on my show and just thought that it was in a snide way. So the next thing I knew, they had told Nathan Lane that, who's a lovely guy. And I admire Nathan Lane. So I called him up and he was like, well, I guess people are, you know, I got to heard your shows, doesn't like me anymore.

Maybe people are turning against me. And I was like, no, who's turning against Nathan Lane? It was just, it made me feel so bad that things get warped through a prism sometimes in show business. I don't know. We're all insecure actors. I don't think, you know, it has to rule your life, but like when it, there's just, there's some part of you there that's going to, when that happens, you're like, what, what, really?

You know? Exactly. But then like, here I am, like, you know, I'll do a character on SNL or, you know, do Michael Cohen or something like that. And I can't imagine what that feels like. It's not, you know, it's not in my nature. Like I, you know, you have to be able to have some sort of a filter to go like, this is just like, you know, show business and this is like, these things, you know, fly back

and forth. Yes. I'm not great with that at all. Well, it's, if you spent a weekend with Michael Cohen and his family, you'd start to go, oh, okay, oh man, you know, but I have the same issue all the time, which is I, for 25 years, I've been making, you know, you make jokes about people, you do sketches about people and I don't want to really hurt anybody's feelings. I really don't.

I mean, there's a few people who deserve it, but for the most part, no, I don't want to hurt someone's feelings, but you have to make that judgment for yourself as you do your, you know, when you would do your monologue of what feels right for you, right for who you are. Yes. And you have to make that decision. And a lot of times you have to make that decision very quickly. And that's not easy.

Like to do that, what you have to do, because you have to really do figure out how do I ride that line where I'm being true to who I am, but I also be topical and feel like this is what joke for that works for me, that's, I used to have, I mean, sometimes my monologue writers used to automatically want to make fun of any new boy band that was overly popular because there, you know, there's that thing where sometimes comedy writers just want to put down, you know, in sync, you know, and, and, and they would write these jokes about in sync sucking. And I would say, do they, I mean, who, first of all, it's my generation's music, but what

I don't want to be is I don't want to be Joey Bishop, the comedian in 1964, who's being like, man, these Beatles, get me some earmuffs, I don't want to hear this, right. I mean, with the, yeah, yeah, yeah, give me a break because it always looks horrible. History will frown upon you. History will make you look like, you know, and it's, you know, it's Steve Allen going, yeah, get this Elvis guy with his hound dog, right. I mean, give me a break. Right.

Well, who are we talking about? I think that Mike Douglas interview with Martin Luther King. Have you ever seen that? No. My parents did the Mike Douglas show a lot. That was, you know, that show, right? Yes, of course. And that was like in Philadelphia, you would go and, and my parents would go down, they'd

take a limousine and they'd co-host for the week, which would be, they'd tape like five shows in a day, I think. And Mike Douglas was always like this sort of like, okay, he's like, he's a talk show host. He's sort of like a showbiz guy. And then in through my, you know, whatever eight year old mind, that's how I saw him. But then I saw this YouTube clip of him like being really tough on Martin Luther King about his civil rights activism.

Yeah. And like whether or not he was crossing the line and being, I mean, it was so, it just felt so wrong. Yeah. And, you know, it was just through that filter of that time, you know, people, I'm sure at the time he was just sort of like trying to be, have a little substance or, you know, be more than just, you know, the sort of the, you know, Mike Douglas that everybody knew is going to do a tough interview.

But you look back at it, it's like, oh my God, that's, you were so wrong. Yeah. And it might have just been a bad timing. He might have said, you know what, someone maybe told him, you got to start getting a little tough with people and show that you've gotten, he's like, all right, I'm going to start today. Who's on this guy, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King. All right, bring him in here.

So Dr. A. He's really strong. What are my symptoms? Well, I'm not that kind of doctor. Oh, a phony area. Wow. Martin Luther King, which name is it? What are you talking about?

I'm done with you. That's score one for Mike Douglas and zero for Dr. Martin Luther King. Yeah. But that's the thing that was always in the back of my head is I never wanted there to be footage around later on of me saying, these names Barack Obama. Good luck with that. Yeah. Yeah.

But how can you know though, right? It's all. I actually know. Okay. I have that ability to just know. That's how you navigated the career that you had. Yes, I have. That's why I'm here doing a podcast at the age of 78.

Interviewing me. Do you like, thank you. A lot of work. Do you like going back to SNL now is such a different experience than when you and I are there and we're around the conference table in the late 80s and where feral dogs like, I want to make it. I want to make it. How are we going to make it?

Are we going to make it? Now you're going back in this very different situation, but it's the same building. What's that like? It's crazy because it hasn't changed in what? 44 years? 45 years? Yeah. Yeah.

It's a totally different attitude towards it because at that time, yeah, it was like, am I going to get my bit on the air? Am I going to get my sketch on? Am I going to get my little short on? And it's your whole career and you're struggling with it the whole week. This is now going back in. I've had such a crazy history with the show in terms of just my interactions with it because I left the show because I had a chance to do, after I did that short, the Tom Cruise

thing, I came on as an apprentice writer and a featured player, but I only was there for six weeks. That's right. It was very short. Yeah. And I had an opportunity to do the short films and so I left and that really forever sort of just made it a strange sort of relationship that Lauren and I have sort of navigated over the years and finally came back and hosted in 1998, but then in 2001 when Zoolander came

out, I was supposed to host and it was right after 9-11 and I decided not to host. And that created a little bit of tension there too because Lauren felt like he wanted me to host and in retrospect, I wish I did host, but at the time I just felt like I couldn't figure out how to do it. Yeah. I could see that would be, you were in a bad position to be fair. You were in a bad position to, no one who absolutely had to be on TV then, especially doing comedy would want to be in that situation.

I wish I had done it, but I didn't and then anyway, so it's been an interesting road with Lauren and I and now coming back and over the last few years, we've had a great relationship. That's good. Yeah. I really, and he's such an icon of show business and really that was my first opportunity. So I'm happy now to come back and it's kind of fun, but it's also still like incredibly frightening to me to do live performing like that. So when they're counting it down and oh my God, and also because they're rewriting all

the time as you know on the show, like literally the rewriting, like the second one we did, I think they were rewriting 30 seconds before we went on the air. I mean, it was insane. And then you're hoping, I remembered back in the day at SNL, a script would change at the last second. You have to go and check the cards and sometimes being underneath the bleachers, checking the cards as they were coming back from commercial and they're taking the cards away from you and you're kind of walking with the cue card guy to try and make sure that two or three

other lines get changed on the cards. And people have no idea, have no idea how random and by the seat of the pants it is. Yeah. And how much rewriting is going on. And you kind of just have to go with it, but and there's nothing like the experience of doing it, which is the fun part of it. It's just like, oh, you're doing Saturday Night Live and you know, to be able to say live from New York at Saturday Night, it's like, you know, that's like every kid's dream.

Who likes comedy because you mentioned the miniseries, Escape at Denimora, that has got to be sort of a perfect gig for you in a way because it's as close as you can come to being sort of in complete master of your universe, right? In terms of creating this thing, telling this story, it's like a, you can just go into it's like a, you know, I knew it was going to be like, okay, this is going to be like a year and a half, you know, just to like escape into this world. And I think, you know, when you're creating something, you're trying to both escape into it, but you're also trying to put yourself into it too.

You know, so it's- Did you know when this story broke about these prisoners escaping and how did you know, okay, this is a story I want to tell? I didn't. I didn't even know. I was actually shooting Zoolander 2 in Italy when it happened and I didn't even know about it. I just used a little bit and then the writers came to me with the idea, the guys that Brett

Johnson and Michael Token and they had this idea to do it. And I learned about the story and I thought, oh my God, this is amazing and how did this happen? How did these guys actually do this old school breakout in 2015 where they like sawed their way through the back of their cells, like how does that happen? And then learning about Tilly, the woman that they seduced and that this was all going on. And then I, you know, so the more that I learned about it, the more I got into it. And then just, you know, yeah, being able to dive into it and then just go, okay, let's

find out as much as we can and find out the reality and go to the real place. And, you know, it was, and not being as an actor. It's awesome to see someone get to a point where I can't conceive of something you wouldn't be allowed to do at this point if you wanted to do it. I was surprised actually doing this, having this experience of working on this thing because I feel like I thought maybe because I hadn't done a drama that people might be a little more like resistant to it, you know, but I feel like people just want to see something if it works for them, you know, they don't, they're not judging, they're, I'm thinking

who directed something. You know what I mean? Like most people don't even know that there's a director that, right? They know the word director and what, you know, that's a movie director. They make the thing, but I don't think people are thinking about that when they watch something. That's why you always need to have a cameo in anything you do. And in your cameo, unlike Hitchcock, unlike Hitchcock, you have to walk into frame look right at the camera and a slight nod and then walk off.

That's your way to say, yeah. I should have done that on this one. Ben Stiller presents Escape. They're tunneling out and just your head leads into frame. It gives a quiet. Keep going. Keep going. I hope you're enjoying.

Yeah. It's me. Back to directing. This critic loved it. I've had one problem during the tunneling scene. I'd almost forgotten Ben Stiller was directing this. Yeah. When you look at yourself in a funny scene from a movie, can you make yourself laugh?

Like can you, I'm thinking of specific, in Zoolander, when you're with your friends, it's one of my favorite things in a movie and you're here at the gas station and you're such idiots and you start throwing gasoline on each other for fun. It is one of the funniest things I've seen in a movie. If you see that, if I was watching that with you, would you chuckle at that or would you just be sort of staring? I honestly don't know the answer. Not really.

I chuckle at the fact that we did that. Do you know what I mean? Laughing to see. No. Like the same way I chuckle at the... Who's dressed gasoline? It's not something you should do. That's the greatest.

Yeah. Yeah. But I also chuckle, the same way I laugh at the fact that we did Jesus Christ Superstar on your show, the fact that we actually did that, I did stumble onto... There's something about Mary the other day and I hadn't seen her in a long, long time and I ended up watching for like 15 minutes and I was laughing at scenes, not like me being funny, but just like Matt Dillon is so funny in that movie. So funny.

Yeah. Or like there's just scenes that I'm in where I go, okay, yeah, that felt like it was working. I'm not like there while I go, oh my God, you know. It would be bad. I'm not screwing it up like, you know, I watch and go, oh, that worked, you know, that worked. Well, I was gonna say it would be bad if you were saying, oh my God, I'm so funny in this. Get in here, everybody. Look at me.

Well, I do that with my kids. And they love it. I hate to throw them under the bus, but John love it. So he's just someone who's like, look at this. Look what I did. And you're like, yeah, you're really funny, John. That's who John is. You know, yeah, he is that guy and I'll say that to his face, but he was the kind of person

who he'd come in and see himself in a classic SNL sketch and be like, look at that. It doesn't get better than that. That's right. By the way, John love it is the person who brought the videocassette of the hustler of money up to Lorne and Jim Downey to look at when I was trying to get it on the show. Good for him. Good for him. Yeah.

So I'm thankful to him for doing that. Yeah. He's a very sweet guy, but and certainly not ashamed of any of his best work, which he shouldn't be. But no, I just, I think of you, there's, there's so many scenes throughout your career where you've really made me laugh, the scene in meet the parents where me, my wife and I have watched the scene. There's so much in that movie that we love, but when you're, you're finally just going

home on your own and you're being asked by that flight attendant to wait at the gate and you're so great in that scene. And I was thinking, oh, I hope Ben is able to look at himself sometimes because you've given me a lot of joy. You've given a lot of people a lot of joy. I hope you're able to like look at, watch yourself and chuckle sometimes. That would be a shame if you couldn't. Yeah.

No, I can sometimes. I mean, like in that movie, if it's a scene with De Niro, because I just, you know, it's Robert De Niro. Yeah. So when I see that, like I'm in a movie with Robert De Niro, I'm still like, I'm very You still like that? You still think, wow. For sure.

Yeah. The fact that like I'll occasionally get an email from Robert De Niro is very exciting to me. That is, you know, yeah. Of course. But to see, yeah, to, so to be in a scene like that with him and see him and the dynamic is funny to me and like I said, if I see like a scene where I go, I didn't screw that up or the timing was good or something like that, you know, right?

I can't, I can't appreciate it. But you know, I'm not going to dwell on it too, because then you dwell on it too much. Then you, you're like, wow, that was 20 years ago. So what have you done since still are fascinating. Yeah. Did see it. So funny. You've done a lot.

But you know what's crazy is that that's the, that is the, if there is a common thread in this show, it's finding out how many people I really admire, who've had an incredible amount of success are worried, not dwelling on it and a little anxious and insecure about it all. And that is the thing that binds a lot of people together in this business. Yeah. I think it's a human thing. I think it's really human.

And it also does push you forward to, it's just the, it's the balance of it. Because if it overtakes you, then that's not healthy and not good, but if it pushes you forward to go, okay, what am I, because I'm most happy when I'm doing something creative when I'm in process. I, because of like, conversely, I'd say like, my, usually the favorite thing that I worked on is something that I've just finished working on, right? You know, so it's like being, it's like that thing where you just go, okay, I want to figure out what's the next thing that's going to, you know, feel creatively challenging and stimulating

or exciting and sentenced in and, and then I heard, I don't know if you can hear that, but you can hear you kind of swallow. Did you hear my swallow? Did everyone hear the swallow? Make sure we make sure we hear that swallow again, because that really swallow desperation and pain. This was great. And it's crazy to me that after all these years, the way we can sit down finally and

really have a conversation. I know. I really, I really, when there's a bunch of, I like it podcast microphones around. So, um, let's go out for real, and I'm going to need to record that too, because you understand, this is a financial windfall for me. There's hundreds of dollars in this. I want to just hear you do your fake phone calls for yourself. Hello, Moroni, no, tell him the cinnamon's out, it's just, and he knows it too, it's

always leaning into it. No, I don't know, he's tried it before and he'll try it again. Nope, tell him the turban didn't work either. It's all Woolridge, if you ask me. And then people just... There's something like pneumatic drills, is there some sort of engineering theme happening? There's always drills, there's always, yeah, there's always, and me insisting, whenever people are, whenever I'm with Sona and there are other people around, if Sona and I are

in an elevator, it's me, they get on the elevator and I'm like, just find the file. We need the file. And if they can't find it, see if Hennessy knows where it is. And there's no files, there's no, but I'm obsessed with like a filing system. That's like the plot to every mission impossible in the game. Find the file. And also I wanted to mention that you, you're more than his assistant though, right? Well, you're like a sidekick.

What about your friend? Well, I feel like you're a sidekick now, and you deserve to be paid as such. Oh, thank you, Jen. And you guys have been talking about payment and the other... Thank you. Sona's getting a little, some financial... Scratch. Okay.

You can get some scratch on the side. Sure. So folksy, hey, this is my assistant who comes on the podcast, like you're actually working. I am, but I am also doing his schedule. I am his assistant. She is my assistant. And that works out. It's also, and we're...

Does it work out okay? Yeah. No. No. Because I have a new assistant and I'm wondering if I should start a podcast with her. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, it is funny because this is an incredibly honest relationship I've had with Sona.

We've been together nine years. Yeah. Ten. That's a long time for an assistant. Yeah. And she's not going anywhere. We've tried to move her along and she was... Yeah.

I've tried to leave. She... Just kidding. And it's just... No, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding. And we're just... Wherever I go, people want to know where's Sona.

So... Oh, that's nice. Yeah. That's very nice. Yeah. But yeah. I mean, on this podcast, I'm pretty side-kicky. Wherever I go, yeah.

No, I think it's good. It works really well. The whole energy. Thank you. All you guys know. Yeah. And then Matt Gorley over here is always... Oh, here we go.

Got a hipster vibe going on. Oh, my God. And... It's just because I have a beard. No, he's always... It's the beard. It's just the beard. And I don't even normally have a beard.

And he also is always bringing in a craft brew. Ever. You had a beard stage for a while. Yeah. I did have a beard stage. Yeah. And look at the skinny tie and tight jacket here. Can you...

Can I just get away with this? Kind of a Wes Anderson thingy. Thank you very much. Yeah. And I was in the Pretenders in 1979. Yeah. Yeah. This is a delight.

This was really nice. This was really fun. And you know what, when I heard that you were listening to the podcast and enjoying it, I was thrilled. I have to say there are a lot of podcasts now. Like there are a lot. Yeah. And I've gotten into a couple, but I don't...

It's the same thing like with television shows, I don't have that much bandwidth to really stick with things. It's not like intentional, I just find myself dropping off. But like this one, literally, like you laugh out loud. Oh, that's nice. Oh, that's nice. And there aren't that many that, you know, that you laugh out loud like that. Thank you.

So who's that in our advertisement? You could check with my people. Oh, but yeah, I see how it is. Possibly. Oh, okay. Or we could just use it and then maybe your people wouldn't know. When you record our dinner, we can talk about it. Best of all of it.

Last time we recorded, I mentioned something that I had that you seemed interested in. So Will, if you could bring over the object in question here. Thank you. Will, hands it off to Aaron. Aaron, hands it off to me and I hand it to come. Oh, here we go. Okay. And grab that documentation too so he doesn't call it into question.

Okay. I am taking a look now as I recall, you said that this was the private telephone that was in Dwight D. Eisenhower, president Dwight D. Eisenhower's summer residence while he was in office. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. And then you've got letters that say, oh, this is, this is, this is cool.

That's what it says. Oh, Newport White House is what it says. It says Newport White House. Was this Newport? This was his summer, like, you know, like Mar-a-Lago is to Trump. This was his summer White House. And please don't ever, I understand. Lichen, the man who gave the OK at the D-Day invasion.

Never would. And rescued Europe to Donald Trump. This was on his own desk. And this is a very cool phone. It's kind of a, I just went to put it to my ear forgetting that I was wearing headphones. That was the clank of an idiot. This is very cool. It's from the New England Telephone and Telegraph Company.

It's got that smell of an old phone. It's kind of a pea soup green phone. It says Newport White House. And there's all these documents at President Eisenhower's personal telephone at the summer White House in Newport. I love this stuff. This is really cool. Just to think that someone, this was sitting on Dwight Eisenhower's desk, his summer residence,

right? Yeah. So he had just been to the beach. Right. And he was probably trying to get the sand off of his feet. There might have been a starfish that had gone down his bathing suit. He's trying to wiggle that out. What?

He's like, oh, go starfish, starfish in the bathing suit. And he's wiggling his butt to try and get that to fall out, but you know how those things cling on, and then, and he picked this up just as I'm picking it up right now, and he held it to his famous Eisenhower scowl. What? What is it? What's going on? It's Mamie.

Mamie. Mamie Eisenhower, my wife. Yeah, I know who I am. I know. I'm just laying out information. Oh, okay. Mamie. I've got a starfish in my bathing suit.

A twin ike? Yes. Oh. It's clinging to me. If I had a dog. Oh, my God. At least I'd have Roosevelt now. He could party.

Can't get it off. Shaking. I'll be right over. I'm in the next room for Christ's sake. Why are you calling me from the next room instead of just walking in? Well, you just got that new phone installed. I wanted to try it. Okay.

Well, hey, where's our daughter? We sent her to D-Day. What? Oh, my God. He didn't send his daughter to D-Day. Oh, I have that wrong. That's insane. It was Iwo Jima.

Yeah, you had a daughter? Sure he did. Yeah, do you know that stuff, Mr. Smart Guy? Wait, who are you talking to? Oh. You're always going out about this mad gorelly character. Who is this? Sorry, sometimes I...

You know, I'm famous for some of the cerebral issues that I've had as president. That's why you sent our daughter to D-Day. Oh, my God. Yes. Why don't you just will the phone to him and make sure it ends up in his possession? I'll will it to him. All right. Why are we still talking to each other when you're just in the next room?

Why don't you come in here and get this starfish off my ass? I'll be right in there. Then why is this improvisation so labored and unproductive? I know. Have you never had an improv class, Mamie? As a matter of fact, I have. I studied with Viola Spolen. Oh, really?

I didn't understand. Well, anyway, as you know, I'm serving an eight-year term because I had two four-year terms. I also, you know, I'm building the nation's highway system, Mamie. Yeah, are you as worried about the industrial military complex as I am? Well, I'm going to talk about that in my farewell address. But we'll talk about that later on and it will be featured as part of Oliver Stone's movie JFK. Okay, come on in here and let me get that starfish off. No, is that a code for anything?

Or are you really just going to take the starfish off? No, I'm wearing my kimono. Oh, okay. I find this very inappropriate. Well, I'm having this phone ripped out of the wall right now and I'm going to send it off to that imaginary gorely freak. Someday, when radio comes back in a less efficient form as something you get through a personal computer... What now? You'll see.

I will make sure that gorely gets it because he'll have what's called a podcast. And how do I watch it? Yeah, he'll work for a genius, but he won't know it. He'll just henpeck him to death with little facts. He sure will. Yes. Well, I better hang this phone up now. Bye.

Bye, I love you. What? I love you. That's not something couples said to each other in the 50s. I know, but I want this to go out on a podcast in the future when it's okay. Okay. Well, there you have it. Goodbye, everybody.

Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and the show is engineered by Will Beckton. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review featured on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the team Coco Hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend on Apple Podcasts where wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. This has been a Team Coco Production in association with Earwolf.