Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Billy Corgan And The Songs That Inspired Him

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

Conan sits down with Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins for a conversation about navigating the changing music industry over a 35 year career and the songs that inspired him. Follow along with the full list of songs here: Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd)Fade to Black (Metallica)Love Will Tear Us Apart (Joy Division)

Hey, recently I had a really nice conversation with Billy Corgan. Always been a fan, I admire his work, and I did this as part of my Words and Music series that aired on SXM's Team Coco radio channel 106. We talked about music that inspired Billy, and because it was on the radio, we were able to even play the songs. It was cool. I enjoyed the conversation so much. I thought let's share it with my podcast listeners now app and search Conan and you'll be able to find the conversation with the songs. Or if you're not a serious SM Subscriber, we'll provide a list of the songs in the episode

notes so you can listen along to the songs with the music streaming service of your choice. Anyway, you'll figure it out, but we had a lot of fun. So I think you'll enjoy this conversation. I want to start with, this is a nice memory I have, Billy. And I think about this sometimes because I think we both hit the scene around the same time. And when I mean hit the scene, I don't think anyone set that in 30 years, maybe 40, so I apologize. But 1993 was when I started doing my late night show.

I think that's when smashing pumpkins sort of show up. Is that correct? 93? To the general world. Yes, to the general public is what I meant. That's when people were like, oh, you're here. You're here now. Yes.

I was around before 93. Me too. We were slaving clubs somewhere, I'm sure. You know, I had this crazy year too at the start of my show. It was very rocky and we were doing a lot of weird stuff and coverage was, people were not happy with what I was doing. And then I was invited to go to the premiere of Howard Stern's Private Parts. So I went, because that was one of those things where you go.

It's a, you know, you've been asked to go to this huge media event and you go. And I went but remembered thinking, I don't know, do I belong here? Should I be here? And there's this, everybody in the world is there and we're all packed into this crazy situation. And I think the next thing I know, Marilyn Manson is like in my face, maybe doing a bit, maybe not trying to get me to drink out of like a chalice of something that looked evil. It was all very weird.

And I never really was bit. I don't. Jenna Jamison. Oh, that's right. Oh, right. Okay. Well, your memory's better than mine. I think I was more focused on what's in that chalice than what, who's he with.

But I was feeling really uncomfortable in kind of almost a high school way like I don't belong here. I wish I wasn't here right now. It's all like you're recounting lyrics for creep by Radio Had to do. Yes, I am. I mean, I remember thinking I wish I had a different body. I wish I had a different soul. No, but, no, but then, uh, you, what didn't really know well said, like, came over and just said, like, to Merlin Manson, like, back off, dude, and then you were like, Conan,

how are you? You were so nice to me. Well, I was a fan. So that was, but what I recall is everyone else was being so performative and self-conscious, trying to outdo each other in some spectacular way that would get attention. And you just cut over and then a very midwestern nice way, said hi to me and established a bond. And every now and then that pops into my head as you sort of coming out of the fog as a nice decent person. And being nice to me. And so I just thank you for that, because I owe you one for that.

I have a similar story from Jimmy Fallon, where I didn't realize about the show that we played on with 98 Cameradilla was the host. That was Jimmy's first ever SNL. And he said he was super nervous. And he said it was the pumpkins calming him down backstage and loosening him up and making him feel comfortable that allowed his debut to be a success. I had no idea. We were just being ourselves. Right. But it's like I'm now realizing that you're like a life

coach. I've been accused. You were, you know, what if you're in the background of every key performer's moment in their life, just calming down? I would, I would be mind. I would be mind. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it. Yeah. I'm just, I'm very,

I don't know if there's a moral tale or a morality tale in there, but I certainly, part of it is you coming from that DIY punk community, you know, it's like don't get too high in yourself. Mm-hmm. But the other thing is when you start interfacing with what at that point was mainstream MTV, whatever BS culture, you know, I mean, I have memories of like shaking some or redstone's hand and some, you know, like, why am I shaking some of their redstone's hand, you know, right?

If you had, didn't you have his poster on your wall as a kid? I had all the great industrialists. I remember with some Mandarin like character who looked like he was on some life extension technology, you know, like something out of I don't know, uh, Dune. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, with like the hot 21 year old and then like assistance hovering around and whispering and, you know, you kind of get pushed forward, shake his hand, like, okay.

No, it is. You know, and they tell you and it and it's like you know but can you swear on your podcast? Yeah sure we encourage it. And I'm like I'm like a shit like you know what I mean like it's a nice person. It's very midwest like you said and it's like I don't know. So yeah yeah that's a very I guess there's I've been looking forward to talking to you, not just because I'm a big fan of your work and I really love to talk about music that I do feel that your trajectory, which I find amazingly cool, I also, and now it sounds like I'm complimenting myself, which I did not intend, but I relate to a lot of what you've done. I understand it, it makes sense to me. And the way that you have, you know, I'm thinking about the arc of this success that you've had, but how you've taken control of it, how you have shaped your career with a lot of

thought. I find to be really impressive. Thank you. You know, there is, I guess, one exception to what I'm about to say, but you're the only person who's levered, ever let me sit on the couch and talk of all the shows I've been on and I've been on them all. No one ever sat me on the couch and talk. And invariably, someone in your world, you'd be watching some late show and you're watching some vacuous actor tell some very unfunny story and everybody's laughing like they're all

high in oxygen. Right. And somebody turns to me and kind of slaps me and goes, why don't they ever let you talk? You're much much more interesting and say, no, they don't want me talking. Well, it's funny because you know what I mean? They don't want me on that couch. There's a reason I'm not on that couch, but you're the only person that would let me on the couch.

So thank you for that. I remember I didn't ask you just charged over. You said. And you we had secure. I remember I was wearing leather gloves. You were like, why are you wearing leather gloves? And I gave you some stupid answer. Well, I was, you know. You were like why are you wearing leather gloves and I gave you some stupid answer? Well, I was you know, it's like you took the bait, right? Yes. I wore the leather gloves on purpose and you're yes. Why are you wearing leather gloves? And it's like funny. You should ask right and then we were off and running. Yeah.

Well, let's start, you know, first of all, I want to start in the present because you have this new album because you have this new album, Atum, and I was listening to it today. And what I love is you orchestrate your music. I don't know, I'm not. We call it that too, actually. Yeah, you orchestrate it really, really beautifully and you can tell that there's a lot of almost like classical thought

that goes into it. And no training, by the way. No training? None, zero. So it's like, it's like a, how is that possible? I don And no training, by the way. No training? None zero. So it's like a, it's like a, how was that possible? I don't know. I don't know.

The great story I like to tell is when I was very young, it was tested as being gifted in music, you know. And they called my father and he was a musician. It said, your son's probably a musical savant, a seven years old or something. And so a week later, they gave me a piece of paper. Told me to circle the instrument that I wanted to play and that I needed instruction

And I went home and my father saw the cost and ripped up the paper and threw in the garbage and that was the end of my musical life Up to that point. Oh wow. So somebody recognized early on that I had some kind of do you remember what instrument you circled saxophone? Maybe your dad did you a favor I Had a I had a I had a Oh, no, he's he's touring this shoday right now. No, it gets better It's better. I had a, I had a, I had a, oh no it gets, he's touring this shoday right now. No, it gets better. It's better.

I had a step family, German and Polish and the Polish uncle, Uncle Henry. When he found it that I wanted to play guitar when I was 14, he literally pulled me aside and said, there's no future in the guitar. What she want to play is the accordion. You will always have a job. And you know, when you're having that conversation, like, yeah, is this he literally pulled me aside and said, there's no future in the guitar. What she want to play is the accordion. You'll always have a job. And you know, when you're having that conversation, like, is this real?

Is he really trying to convince me to play the accordion? And he was dead serious. I think I can top that with an even more absurd story, which is I get the late night show in April of 93. So it's almost, it's exactly 30's exactly exactly 30 years since I was I was I haven't got you yet they've tried they've winged me a few times but I get this job it's announced that the replacement for David Letterman is going to be this guy Conan O'Brien everybody's saying who is this guy what's

happening and I got a call from my uncle who lives in Worcester Mass who I love by the way is great guy. Nat my uncle net calls me and he says, what is this? What are you doing? I'm reading in the paper and he said, the law should study the law. He's he was talking to me about getting into law and trying to convince me that law was better than hosting one of only three late night shows in America. And he meant it. He meant back when people actually watch late nights.

Yeah, exactly. I know. So it was, but he was saying, on there forget, he said, you can, as a lawyer, you can be a performer in front of a judge, but you're also writing your own scripts when you're preparing a case, which I'm like, no, I am not going to now call NBC and say, this isn't happening.

I'm going to, imagine that conversation. Going to law school, they would have said, fine, we'll get some other idiot. Who ran the network back then? It was gone in Bob Wright. And I think he actually took a call from my uncle. That's true also, is it my uncle also called Bob Wright

and said, what do you do? Because I know here's the connection, Bob Wright had gone to Holy Cross College in Worcester and so had my uncle. Oh my goodness. So he got through and they said, the Conan's uncle is on the line and wants to talk to you. And so Bob Wright picked it up and he was like, what are you, what are we doing here? I mean, you went to the cross.

I went to the cross. Is this the right thing for him? I think the law would be better. And he for years afterwards with howl telling that story. That's amazing. Yeah, but he was right. I should have done it. It's almost sounds invented, but that's why it's so good.

No, no, that is a very true story. But here's what's amazing to me. This is a, Ahtum has 33 songs on it. And another queer suicide, I was told. No, I mean, I was too old. I'm not joking, I'm not talking. It's so, you're, I mean, you're so prolific and it's, but it's interesting because a lot of artists right now are focusing on these really small projects and singles and things

like that. And you are willfully saying, this is what I'm doing and you're welcome to join me or not, but this is what I have decided to do. Yeah, without being political, which is hard to do these days, I think the culture is sick and counterintuitive to the human experience. And so I've just made a decision. I'm going to do whatever I think is right for what I do, which is make music. And if people have a problem with it, then don't listen. I don't know, it's really weird to me.

When you sit in boardrooms and people try to talk a musician into not making music, I mean, those are real conversations I have. And I'm like, I don't understand. It's like saying, hey, you're really good at juggling. Don't juggle so much. Yeah, just to look, but why? I can't wrap my head around it emotionally or intellectually.

It reminds me of when the government is paying people to destroy crops in order to stabilize the price. It feels... That's some of the argument. They get into kind of scarcity arguments. Right. Like, less is more. And it's like, no, how about I'm going to be dead soon.

And I'd rather leave my kids more songs than less. Like, let's start there. That's my math. Right. I don't care about your math anymore. In fact your math is usually wrong Well, one of the things that fascinates me is when you as we said in 93 when smashing pumpkins arrives and You're killing it and you and you I'm for you talk about these years There's all this success and yet what you're feeling

around you is negativity. Oh, it's horrible. And I heard you talking to Howard about it, you were talking about all the negativity you were getting when you guys were the band. And I kept thinking, was this real negativity you were hearing, or was this, was some of it real, and some of it coming from your experience growing up? Bit of both. Yeah, so let's take the part that's real.

And it's something that I didn't understand then, but I think most people would understand now, because it's something that's off-talked about in our world. We use culture like a football now. So I was in the very early version of what is now the modern version of the cultural football. So somebody has no problem kicking you in the head to make a point to win their side. Without naming the band, there are people to this day that are still trying to assassinate me behind the scenes because they're loyal to another band and somehow my success represents

something against that band. So they're still trying to kind and somehow my success represents something against that band so they're still trying to kind of kill me off behind the scenes. Yeah. So a lot of that stuff that goes on, I had even people writing articles when the band that was successful, some of they had been a publicist for the band

and another person that had worked with the band behind the scenes wrote an article in England saying that I was secretly from a rich family and I was pretending to be poor and abused, totally fabricated story. What we would now call a hit piece or something. And I'm sitting there in my house and you know, by Rigglyfield, you know, in Chicago,

reading about the person that doesn't exist and not understanding why are these people who I know personally, I've been to the house and had dinner at their table. Why are they trying to assassinate me in public? You know what it is, it's strange, it's the either or that I never understand, which is, you know, I mean, it goes back

to the early days of like Beatles or Stones. Jack Par or Johnny Carson. Yeah, remember that argument? Yes, yes. Jack Par was the host of the tonight show before Johnny and I'm dating myself, but no, no, who better to date? But I would say before, you know, there was a, Jack Par was more aerodite and, you know,

Whittier and Carson's more of a clown. And you know, what are you talking about? It's just, you can enjoy them both. They're both great in their own way. And it's so that's this strange thing of, if you like the rolling stones, you don't have to hate the beetles. If you love the beetles, you don't have to hate the rolling stones. But to me, it's that either or, which is when you talk about the cultural football, I think

that's what we get into a lot now, is you're not even a person. Smashing pumpkins represents, yeah, smashing pumpkins represents this avatar. This other band represents that other avatar, and the other avatar has to kill the first avatar. That's what I'm saying. So that is real, and it persists in its own form today. The imagined part was just seeing stuff that's just, you know, I think it's like something out of an old Hollywood musical. I imagined what success would look like, and when I got there, whatever that Disneyland ride was, like I actually arrived, like there's me and you

standing there at the private parts premiere. I got a massive album, you got a big TV show, and we're both standing there going, what world are we in, right? Right, right. There's a sort of level of dispossession. So if you're not secure in yourself or you don't know kind of what the point is,

it's easy to get lost in it because there's not, you're not going to get a lot of confirmation. The culture's not designed for that. And the systems of you being in the network system, me being in the major label system, those are repacious systems that assume that you're not going to last. And they really reward sociopaths who are literally kill their own mother to get ratings or sell records in my case. And they expect you to do that. And if you don't want to do that, they know somebody standing behind you that will literally more than happy.

Yes. More than happy to do that. And I don't want to put thoughts in your head, but I'm assuming you're aware of that. Oh, of course. You know that there's somebody standing on the other side of the wall waiting. Here's what's nice is that, and this is the where I'm going with all this, is that what I have found in my career is that I just turned 60 like a week ago, and I'm happier than I was in my 20s and 30s because I feel like I've gotten to a contented place where I know what I want to make,

I know what I like to do, and I know how I like to do it, and I like to make it on a one, like this for example, it's a smaller scale, but I really enjoy it, and it's meaningful to me, and the same thing with some of the other projects I'm doing, And it's not that I didn't like the other part, it's just that now it feels like I'm directly speaking to people that are interested in what I like to do. And there's a little bit of a, I have a community. And it's, it, it feels a lot more organic. And I feel that you, with the music you're making now, and then with your podcast where you're talking about that, it's this same idea of it's like a Kebler-elf tree where you're making the cookies. I realize I'm, you know, saying that they,

I don't really believe they make those cookies in a tree. But the cartoon is very convincing. It's worth noting that for most of human history, that was the condition of people in the arts. Whether you were traveling bar or you were the guy that they'd hire to come tell jokes at the wedding or whatever. That was most of human life.

The 20th century brought on the mechanization. And of course, it rewards people like us to say, hey, you can climb up this magical escalator and make a lot of money and reach out these people. So it's very tempting. And really, there aren't many comparable games at that time. Now, you look at, like, I saw Clipa Rogan talk in the other day, and he was talking about CNN going after him for Ivermectin, and he was laughing, and he was like, CNN truly believes they have the higher ground. my shows 10 times

bigger than anybody on CNN. It's like no one's told CNN by the way Joe Rogan is way more influential now than you are. They're still in the old systemic thought. So the other thing I like to point out is in kind of a just way we've seen the erosion of what I call the gatekeeper class in my world. It would have been the record critic, whether it was Lester Bangs or whoever it was. Stone would decide maker break it, or whoever was the Broadway curative at New York Times. We also saw the movie where anyone goes to it,

whatever the restaurant after the thing and hopes to be- And they're waiting for the review to come out. Literally the difference of 500 people keeping their job or not, if one guy decides that what you've done has some value, I think that's gone. Oh, I experienced it. I back in the early days, one or two big critics said, nope, this isn't it.

And you host some Oscars too. Do you host some Oscars or some Grammys? Who, me? Yeah, I did Emmys. I hosted the Emmys. I remember that. I imagine you got to, you read that review too, right? Yeah, but I mean, this was even the very beginning

when I was just starting out. It was, there were gatekeepers who told you whether this show was worth your time or not. And it had a lot of power. And as we know now, there's no such thing. There's a lot of opinions, but there's not one opinion that can shut you down. I just love they all killed themselves.

They put themselves out of business. Because with clickbait world, they couldn't help themselves. They just had to get snarkier and dumber to keep up. And you saw its influence even on the old guard, the New York Times, and stuff. They just couldn't help themselves. They ended up going into that. Obviously even particularly on the political side.

So I just love that they've just blown themselves up. I think this is really funny, because at the end of the day, they're still commenting on stuff, people getting stuff done. Yep. And you can argue about the effectiveness of that person getting that stuff done. But if you're somebody who's getting stuff done, you're still getting stuff done. It's really easy to sit there in the stands of the football game, say, well, I could have made that past the Tom Brady mist. Right. you know, I was there in the Superbowl

when he missed the pass. I was really sitting there when he missed the pass at the end of the game that cost him the Superbowl in Indianapolis, you know, and some believe probably said, next to me, it was like, I could have made that past, you know, you couldn't have. That's why it's Tom Brady, right? But so I still have people come up to me in airports and tell me how to make my records. You know, it's funny to me. I've thought about this. I've thought about how I'm very lucky that the internet didn't exist when I was launching back in 93 because I don't think, you know, I had enough trouble as it was, but I think I would have gone quite mad if I was... I mean, in terms of feedback.

In terms of feedback. I mean, there would have been a good part of it, which is I would have heard from people who I later met, younger people who were, you know, I think you would have done quite well. Well, I would have culture. I guess it's not about youth, but I'm saying, let's say the way you were being then. Yeah. Sorry, I'm being a bit of a fan boy, but if you could take 94 you and pluck you into this world, I think you would fit quite well into this world. Okay. Well, I think I would have, your meme up all this when I'm trying to say thank you. Thank you. That's all I wanted and we can wrap it up now.

How do you think you would have handled the internet when smashing pumpkins is is is first making it big would you have been first of all do you read stuff online? No, I do not know I learned that lesson My first mistake with the internet was like was like great. There's this new feedback loop Right, I'm gonna empower the fan in quotations and we can have this different type of relationship and they all turned on me Yeah, because they don't want you to come off the mountain. They want you up on that mountain and they want you to play whatever character they think you're playing, Moses or something, bald, angry guy or something. So I learned really fast, like, no, you do not, they do, you know, it's like when people

pull you aside, when you make some money and say, you know, don't get too friendly with the help. It's the same thing. I used to take fans out to breakfast and stuff. I was famous for like, like when people would line up at 6 a.m. for a show and I would get up for a morning walk, I would go down and find 50 people in line

and I'd take them all out for breakfast because I've heard about Andy Kaufman doing stuff like that. I thought, oh, this is really fun. Like, this is a new, and by the way, they'll post about it. You know, it'll be really fun. And invariably, you would look at it and there'd be somebody complaining that, you know, when they were eating their pancakes, you didn't answer their question or something. I'm serious.

So I, I, I, it's funny much in that because I had a friend, I have a friend who went to see a famous Andy Kaufman show and afterwards Andy Kaufman invited everybody out. Yeah. And there were buses outside and so he got on the bus and then he said it just kept going all night and the crowd kept getting small and small because Andy would say now meet me at the hair and then now meet me here and now meet me there. And he said at the end it was there on Coney Island, I think. And he said it was Andy Kaufman and like two other people and my friend, Rodman.

And the sun was coming up. And I love that. I love that. But obviously that's something that you can only do for so long. And I'd learned to not read comments. And my partner's a lot younger than I am. She's 26 fingers on him. So then when we started

being together and it became very public that we were together once we were having a child, she's from that generation that would of course go read comments because that's the world she grew up in. Yeah. You read what people say. And she was coming back saying people think I'm a boy, poor saying I'm ugly, people are saying all sorts of crazy stuff about me. You know, and you tried it. She was reading this stuff. Oh yeah, yeah. I, and you tried it. She was reading this stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. I had to hear about it. She was going on my fan sites reading.

I'm just going to interject to say, she came with you and she's sitting in the room outside and she is stunningly beautiful. Thank you. So I don't want to, this is a can through that people on the internet are insane. Yeah. That is one of the more attractive women

I've seen in a while. You're like, I don't like her. She's not pretty enough. That's, that's insane. Yeah, that is one of the more attractive women I've seen in a while. You're like, I don't like her. She's not pretty enough. That's madness. Yeah, I remember when Curt and Courtney were together, I went to visit Courtney at some hotel and she was obsessed because she'd seen some fan comment on the internet and the fan comment said,

but she isn't even pretty. Like that sort of explained everything, you know. She was so, she was obsessed with this idea of like, but she isn't pretty. Like that's, that was the defining characteristic about why did he marry her. She isn't pretty, you know. So, um, what's the whole thing of, you know, I could, I think the late night audience's size was about 350 people in that studio

audience at RockFour Center. 349 could be deliriously happy and I could immediately find the one person. You and I had the same to this. Who wasn't laughing and I think it's quite common, which is what is that person's problem? You know, I learned a long time ago, you just, first of all, you don't know. They may, and I've had a couple of occasions where someone who didn't, was not that demonstrative in a concert or at a show or something that I was doing. And then I see them afterwards and they're like, very straight face and they just say,

I just want to tell you I'm a huge fan and they start listing all these different things. They're not demonstrative that way. Or they may really despise me. Who knows? You don't know. You can't make any assumptions. I have the same thing, right? So waste of time.

I see everything oddly so. And I've had it where people will come back. Somebody I know and it will be with the partner. And I'll say to the guy, you didn't seem to have a good time. And the guy's like, what are you talking about? I like have every album you've ever made. You're like, I'm your biggest fan. And I love this.

And you're, it's like, don't judge a book by the cover, right? It's like, you can't get into that crowd psychology stuff. Well, that's, I went to my daughter asked me to take her to Coachella last summer. And so I did. My last mistake. Actually, it was, it was really fascinating, but we were watching.

Were you wearing an Indian headdress? I was wearing cowboy chaps and nothing else. It was just, it's madness. It's madness, but I really enjoyed it. And I got exposed to a lot of music and a lot of flesh that I would never have seen before. But what was amazing is I remembered someone watched me watching a band that I really liked.

And then afterwards said, came up to me and said, oh, I just saw you not enjoying that band. And that's just how I, I'm not someone that jumps around when I'm watching music. I can watch someone who I think is absolutely hilarious. And I'm just watching them saying, thinking, wow, this person's really good. I don't necessarily react the way other people would want me to react. So I remember being bummed out that that was what they took away from me was you just stared at that band without enjoying it. You know the theory that audiences are better in the dark because

they're more likely to be demonstrative. Do you know the theory? I didn't know that. Yeah. Some people because we use a lot of backlight. Very rock and roll. So the audience is usually pretty well lit and people will pull me aside and say, you know, the audience would be more into the show if you didn't have light on them. Because they can be themselves in the dark or something. It's so strange. I remember when I inherited the late night show, they told me that Dave Letterman liked to keep the studio really cold.

46 degrees, by the way. Yeah, really cold. And he said he thought it was because of the laughs for better. And then I started to think, I think it's because if you clap, you're creating bodily heat. So I'm looking at it. You're like getting people into hypothermia.

But it was always an honor to play Dave's show. Yeah, of course. Then immediately after we were grown and think here we go, we're gonna go to the Siberian winter and try to play a rock song. Yeah, well, we would, the person who wasn't like that and Jim, you'll remember this was a wreath of Franklin Mmm, a wreath of Franklin showed up to play our show

She was not having that shit about a cold studio and we were trying to you know people were trying to explain to a wreath of Franklin That well it actually does help because between the lights and the cameras and everything is gonna get too hot in there No, you fuckers are gonna to put that in. No one says boo to a wreath of frank. It is hard to sing. Yeah. I made the mistake one time. I was like, because I'd done letterman enough where I was like, I'd always walk from the dress here. I mean, then you walk in the coat and it's like, it's like going cold outside and try to sing, right? Right. So I had this idea. I'm going to stand in the wings for about 10 minutes, adjust to the cold and then then it was worse. So it never worked

for me. But what are you going to do? I mean, what do you get a poll letter, Minnesota? Hey, Dave, you know, I'm yes, that's exactly what you should say. You're not a wreath of Franklin. I am the wreath of Franklin of my genre is what you should have said. You know, we asked you, well, I have a cut one or two geek questions because I'm a hack guitarist. What was the guitar you saw as a kid that blew your mind? Was there, well, my father played a flying V. Okay. And he had a 1966 or something flying V.

And purple, very cool. With like an 1890s Indian head, Silver Dollar, which people used to put in the back of Flying Beast, because the head's a counterweight. Because the headstocks are so heavy, the guitar always wants to rotate forward. Yeah. And so my dad, hi on whatever he was on,

with the very 70s mustache, that was the guitar, you know. That's what you allowed to touch. Nah, I was not. Okay. I was not. He forbid me to touch the instrument. Wow. And so I was only allowed to touch that kid? No, I was not. Okay. I was not. He forbid me to touch the instrument. Wow. And so I was only allowed to look.

I have to say that a couple of times I've strapped on a flying V, I've found it a very uncomfortable experience. And it is very uncomfortable. And so then what did you, did you move on to a Les Paul? My father got me a Korean made Les Paul copy as it's known in the business. So it looks like a Les Paul, but it's some badly made one. I had that, I painted it black,

sold it to a drug dealer, and then I had a fender Mustang that my father gave me. I played that for a while, but it had very weak pickups, couldn't get the grunge sound. And then Jimmy Chamberlain showed up one day with a 1974 yellow strat, yellow, definitely not my color, but Richie Blackmore did play that guitar, so that was okay. And Jimmy said,

I'll sell it to you for $270. Right. Even at the kind of an odd number, right? Yeah, yeah. I later found out it, because that's how much you needed for rent. Yeah, it had to be for something specific. And then fast forward 20 years, I'm walking on the street in Chicago and it got pulls me aside.

So do you still have that yellow guitar? And I said, no, that's the one that got stolen. I don't know if you heard that story. Somebody found it 27 years later and came back to me. But did they want to resell it to you? No, no. This guy pulled me aside and said, do you still have that guitar? Right.

And I said, no, and he goes, what you got from Jimmy Chamberlain, right? Yeah, yeah. He said, how much do you charge you for it? Oh. And I go $270. He goes, yeah, he stole that guitar from me. Oh, Jesus.

OK. He wasn't mad because he loved Jimmy. It was some weird story, like kid's story, where Jimmy had stolen the guitar and sold it to me for rent money. And that was the guitar that I played on the band's first records. And that guitar got stolen, some sort of weird car mack thing, came back 27 years later. It's going to reappear in your life at some point. Oh, I got it.

Oh, you did get it. Yeah. A gentleman out of Nashville, somebody contacted him and he, bless his heart, got the guitar back. He obviously played. Somebody didn't ask me for any money. He just gave me the guitar. Oh, that's great.

After 27 years. I like that. That's cool. Had it been altered much? No, surprisingly not. I remember very well that the first electric guitar I got was, I think I paid $600 for it and it was 1985 and that was an incredible amount of money.

That's a lot of money still. Yeah. Which guitar? Well, that's it. It was a 63 Gretz, I'm sorry, 64 Gretz, Tennessee. Oh, nice. And so actually for the money, it turned out to be a amazing investment.

That's worth a lot now. Do you still have it? I have it hanging up on the wall behind me. And I had it at Saturday Night Live when George Harrison stopped by to say hi to all of us after I had partying with Lauren. And it was in my office and it's the exact same year and model that George played on the tour. And for a second, I thought about running down and getting that guitar and showing it to him and then I thought,

don't be that guy. So that's one of those judgment calls. I think I made the right call. I think at that moment that was the right call because I, you know, to a geek like me, it was like, oh, this is perfect. I'll show George the same making model guitar. And he would have seen a kid with some acne who was undernourished and a big pile of hair on his head shoving a guitar at him when, you know, he could probably open a closet at home and 700 gratches will fall out.

So, wanna hear a quick funny story? No, I don't have time for that. Okay, let's move on. That's it. That's it. So, when you hear a quick funny story, no, I don't have time for that. Okay, let's move on. Yes, please. So Jack Bates plays in the Pumpkins, he plays bass. His father's Peter Hook of Joy Division in New York and they were touring and they had rented a Vox and the amp blew up and it was from a rental company. So they knew not to just take the amp back to the rental company,

they took it somewhere to be repaired before they returned it to the rental company. Anywomen, the guy took the chassis off, they found scratched into the mainframe, George Harris. Oh, forgot. It was one of George's amps that had been stolen in 68 that he played on like revolver and people thought it was lost forever. And so then it was returned back to the rental company who then sold it for, you know, some ungodly son, but it's a cool story. I had, I was in Nashville,

and there was a famous guitar shop that I was touring. Grounds, grounds, yeah. I remember it went... I spent a few dollars in Grounds. Well, they tried to get me to spend a few dollars. At one point, they showed me some of Buddy Holly fan fanatic and they showed me an amp that belonged to buddy And they were showing it to me and then they took it off and they showed me where buddy had put his you know written and then oh, yeah

Well, I was fascinated by it and they let me plug it in and I got to play that'll be the day on a Stratocaster through that amp and so I was just Pure joy was coming out of my pores and then they told me how much I was they wanted for it and I realized I could get this, I mean buddy owned it but other than that it's a fair to Midland old, you know, and amp and I could that, or I could put one of my kids through college. And so, I think I made the wise decision. I bought it at auction. So in 1982, I went to see Judas Priest play.

And it was at a race track, which eventually burned down. And when I was in there, it felt like a fire trap. It was one of those things where you're looking around and go, if something goes wrong here, I'm gonna die. But it's Judas Priest. And so what a way to go. Not bad. Judas Priest made you to not a bad way to go.

So I bought the pedal board that KKK down, nothing was using that day and the amp that he was playing, those came up for auction. So I bought those. That's cool. So it's like a cool, like, you know, it's like, you can tell me, if you told me at 14 or something, by the way, one day you're going to own that amp and that pedal word from that guy who

you adore. Yeah. Not a bad gig, right? No, it's like in a weird way, you're closing some mystical loop. Yes, that's how I feel. That's why I would be happy if you had bought the amp because there's something that happens when you do stuff like that. It makes no sense at all, but it sort of confirms some other thing.

Yeah. So I'm telling you that you're weak. Yeah. My only real regret in that regard was I was at an auction once, but we were shooting something at a rock and roll auction. Elvis Aaron Presley's library card from Hume's high school came up on the block, and I was busy trying to position the cameras and wasn't listening. And they were like, going once, going twice and they didn't get the amount they wanted.

So they took it off the auction and I don't know where it is now. But I would have paid a lot of money to have had that in my wallet for the rest of my life and missed it. And so if it's whoever owns it, let me know because you name the amount and I'll pay it. And so if it's whoever owns it, let me know because you name the amount and I'll pay it. Less than Buddy Holly's am. No, no, no, it's all different now. My kids don't need to learn how to read.

You know, we asked you before you came if there were three songs that, I would say, were meaningful, affected you in a certain way, come to mind, affected you in a certain way, come to mind. And you were kind enough to to come up with three tunes. And so let me just mention the first one. Sure. And then we can just talk about what this song means to you.

And then we can play the song. That's the beauty of serious XM. The first one you told us was, wish you were here. Obviously pink Floyd. What was it about that song that grabbed you? My grandmother, who I was very close to, on my mother's side, was dying of cancer, 57 years old, and I would have been 17. So, this was my first experience in life where somebody I was close to was dying, and

my mother and her mother, the one that was dying, were not close. So I was kind of caught in that too. And as you do, you try to find something that you can hold onto. And for some reason, that song became the song of that thing. It sort of mored me into something. And the lyric doesn't really have anything to do with it, which is kind of interesting. But something about the emotional tender of the song really connected me. And what's amazing is I've had the experience now countless times. And I'm always kind of an ove it when people pull me aside and tell me this song of yours when my kid was born, when my Remembrance died. That was the song that got me through. And I go back to that moment.

And it's this white's always so humbling because I understand like, I don't wanna say a song saves your life, but it saves something. It keeps you there. Yeah, well this song, it's interesting you mentioned because everybody knows this song so well. It's such an iconic song.

I've always noticed, and I'm not sophisticated when it comes to music or mixing, but it's so powerful the way it starts with that simple riff, and then the way it's layered, the way, I guess, if you're listening to it in stereo, you hear, there's the original riff, and then these complementary wrists that are coming in on the acoustic guitar, I think, these complimentary risks that are coming in on the acoustic guitar, I think, and the way they're coming in different shows. And then suddenly the whole thing comes together. And it's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very I was asked to give the speech. So I'm in my hotel room at the four seasons and there's a knock at the door and it's David Gilmore with no shoes on holding, you know, his guitar.

Coming to teach me how to play the song. Oh my God. So I got to sit with him and tell him, I can't believe we're going to play the song because the song means so much to me. I had nothing to do with it. They just decided to play the song. And then, but they were at odds with Roger. So Roger wasn't there. other three guys were and then years later this would have been about four or five years ago

Roger had done this thing where he was working with wounded veterans There was even a guy was playing drums triple amputee You know a rack that's stuff he put together this kind of band of vets playing Floyd songs. And so I got to plan stage with Roger and sing wish you were here with Roger and these vets, you know, for a sold-out crowd in DC. So you want to talk about like full circle, like pinch me. Are you kidding me? Like, and why this song? You know, I mean, I get it, but it's on some level. Like when a song means that much to you, and then you're standing with the people that wrote the song and played the song, it's wild.

Well, that's when you go, but that's when I always time travel in moments that are anything like that. You know, for me, it's, wait, I was the kid in Brooklyn, Massachusetts sitting on the heating grate watching a black and white TV. And Jack, yeah, you know, or some of the grifts I was trying to do. Yeah, exactly.

No, he would have been gone by them, but watching like Andy Griffith or, you know, or Andy Griffith. I was trying to do. Yeah, exactly. No, he would have been gone by them, but watching like Andy Griffith or, you know, watching any of these iconic performers or Carol Burnett and then, how is it that I'm with them now and they even know my name? That's the time travel part that I saw. Yeah, amazing. And for you, it's going back to, you know, Illinois and you're just like, wait a minute, how can this be? I was that kid that wasn't even allowed to touch my dad's guitar and now individually

members of Pink Floyd are teaching me how to play this song. Yeah, I'm to put a bow on it. When you're in music and you talk to journalists all the time, they focus on a lot of stuff that doesn't have anything to do with music or wirey musician. It's all about the accoutrement. Like my favorite question. Tell us a funny tour story. It's like tell us about the time he snorted Coke off the strippers ass. You know what I mean?

And what they don't really understand is when you're a kid, in my case, and in Jimmy's case, you're an abusive home, you know, you have literally no future, latch key kids, and you've suddenly something that rushes doing or Floyd is doing get you to animate and practice four hours a day And there's I mean, it's not like there's somebody waiting at the end of that rainbow Hey kid practice and some day you'll be on Conan show. There's none of that right something in you animates like this is what I got to do So when you're standing there with the people that got you out of the frickin' basement, it's not just like, oh, wow, this is cool. I'm banging with Floyd. You're like, holy fuck, this is so crazy. Because it's literally

is the embodiment of the dream. Yes. What's a religious experience? Yes. Absolutely. It's an absolutely pure spiritual experience where, oh, the universe, something, there is magic in the universe. And then invariably you've got to sit in the guy with an office who tells you, it has nothing to do with magic. Yeah. Here's the piece of paper.

Right. I once had a guy, it was like a business meeting. Excuse me, and the guy pulls out a piece of paper and he goes, well, we've researched you. And your band is the 1,055th most search band on the internet. Right? Yeah. Now, he's using it as a negotiating tactic to obviously get my price down.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, but if you really think about it, like even hit pause and we're laughing because it's funny, right? Okay, but wait, there's 8 billion people on the planet, seven billion people. You've made music. You're still in the point, oh, oh, oh, oh, one percent out. And this guy's still hitting you over the head with the you know, fist to the skull down you go, down you go. So it doesn't feel like it gets you the way it used to. But that's what I'm saying is you got to know who you are in there that goes back to the kid in the basement that when kids were out front, I have enduring memories. My brother loved the skateboard when it wasn't popular in the 80s or whatever.

And I remember on a summer's day, standing in my bedroom, playing scales, trying to be Ing-veh-Momstein and watching kids play on the driveway and laugh and fall. And here comes the cute girl and I'm in the bedroom. Ooh, you know what I mean? Why? Because anybody with the right mind is out there with the cute girl skateboarding.

Right. Not in your bedroom trying to bring Ing-veh-Momstein. So that's what gets you through those moments is like, no motherfucker, you don't understand. This ain't about that. I get that it's about that. And I get we're here to sort of do this dance. I used to do it with this guy called it the dick dance.

We're here to do the dick dance about the money, but that's not why I'm here. Yeah, I'm a musician. I mean, trust me, it makes no sense at all to be a musician. None. In the tech world they call the dick dance, a negging. Yeah.

That's when you just say, you know, we're not really, your stuff isn't that good. And really not that. And then you think, well, why am I even- Why am I even- Why am I here? I'll just go. That's- but that's the older-

the older you get, you get better at seeing. Why would I even- I'm happy to just walk away. Yeah. I actually enjoy my family. So I was in one of those meetings once, and guy was trying to alpha me that way. And I just looked at him, I said, look, motherfucker, you can't get rid of me. That's why you're talking to me.

You can't get rid of me. You can't replace me. It has nothing to do with my crooked teeth. I write good songs. If you could get rid of me, you would. You get rid of me a heartbeat and he said, that's true. I liked it. But he said that's true. I like that you said that's true. Yeah. God bless, right?

Yeah. Because I'd rather be honest. Yeah. You know what it is, but let's give wish you were here. Bum bum bum bum. Yeah, let's listen to it. Eduardo D. your magic. My question is when you first heard that song, it has this very powerful hold on you. You go on to have all this knowledge and mastery of recording so you know how the chair is made. Does that change the way you hear the song? Yes, absolutely. And what are you hearing? You're hearing choices they made in the

studio economy. Floyd is amazing with economy. Patients, they have patients in a way that sort of belies their age. You know, I mean, when they're making that, they're all like in their probably late 20s. When you say patience in what specific way. They're not in hurry to get to anything. Like Floyd works in their own time scale. It's very unique. The way David has a way of playing guitar lines that you can literally sing along to.

It's very rare for a guitar player to solo, but not in a wanky way. And the little way they kind of cheat things in there, there's like the Richard's playing like the little synthesizer brass. Even the end, the wind at the end is, it's made with a synthesizer. That's not real wind, I think.

I think that's a synthesizer sound. So they're working with artificial versus organic tones, stuff like that. It can be a blessing in a curse to know how the sausage is made on the sausage. Yeah, as I was thinking is, you know, I've spent most of my life thinking about comedy and thinking about what's the funny way for something to happen. And so sometimes I'll be watching some, I like to lose myself in something. I don't want to be thinking that way.

And sometimes I'll see, oh, they're doing that thing now. And that can you illustrate what, like, like, give me a comedy that thing. Well, okay, I mean, I can't think of a specific example. But I want to, I like to learn, just give me an illustration of like, what, like, there are, like, in the pumpkins, we call it a gag. Yeah, in the world of comedy, I mean, there are all kinds of things that are just the way things are done. One is the callback. You introduce something and then you bring it back in later on. And sometimes it's done really artfully and sometimes the callback is used in kind of a cheap way

to kind of, let's go some other laugh here. So remember that scuba diver that appeared in the window earlier in the sketch, you're going to see him later on and And sometimes it's earned and sometimes it's not earned sometimes it's the exact right thing to do and sometimes people are just doing it to do it And so you when you sometimes when you see an unearned callback or you something like that I just go Yeah, you didn't need that and then my wife is saying what why you speaking over? You know what I'm just we're trying to enjoy this episode of who's the boss just go, yeah, you didn't need that. And then my wife is saying, why are you speaking over? I'm just trying to enjoy this episode of Who's the Boss?

Why can't I? But in the band, we call it the power of discernment. So it's only somebody in the game knows where the line is. In wrestling, we call it cheap heat. Cheap heat is, I can't believe I'm in Indianapolis. This is the biggest shit hole I've ever been in. You know, boo, that's cheap heat.

Not very artful, right? And anything that gets him booing, it makes me happy. Yeah, but if you believe in the art of something, you don't want cheap heat. You don't want cheap laughs. No, you want the real laughs. Right, right. Well, it's's I guess it's a bit of a Snobbery to it. No, no, I don't mind it. It's true because I remember having we did something at rehearsal and

It did really well. I remember Robert Smigel our you know original head writer co you know co-creator on original head writer, co-creator on the late night show. He was saying, let's lose that. And some of us were saying, but it did really well. It rehearsed like it got a big laugh. And he went, yeah, we don't want laughs like that. And I thought, damn, okay, that's true. I admire that. Shit, I do love a laugh, but you're right.

There are laughs you, you know. Like, if the bottom line, it's not unlike what you were talking about before, there are laughs you, you know, like we, if the bottom line, it's, it's not unlike what you were talking about before or where someone's telling you, let's look at the numbers. We, we all know that when we've done something, when we've done good work, we know it. You just know it. And so, if you did anything to add artificial sweeteners or doping, it makes you feel shitty about the whole thing. Settlers are the same. Yeah. Like, we have enough successful music

that we can put together a set list that we know people will approve and like and probably buy t-shirts, as we used to say back in Chicago, no shit Sherlock, you know. But the art is giving them something that they didn't know that they wanted and having them leave and say that was a richer experience Then I thought coming in if they just play the songs that I know there's this big event you know this event

Jim there's an event for the Museum of Natural History that they raise a lot of money and all the big wigs on the Upper East Side and West Side of Manhattan go there. I had you know They asked people to perform at it, and I think I did it. At least once, then they would get music. And I was there once, just, I didn't have to perform. So I could just watch. And it was Tom Petty and the heartbreakers were performing. It came time for them to do their music.

And, you know, just imagine the richest room you can think of. And people are in tuxedos, and everyone's going their picture taken and it's gonna be in the most elite magazines that who showed up at this thing. And billionaires are there who have their name, you know, carved into the wall. And Tom Petty got up there with the hard workers and they didn't do one hit. Everything was a deep cut.

And I was so happy. And I could tell that Tom Petty didn't give a shit. He was like, I'm going to play you the deepest of the deep cuts. And I'm going to do the stuff that I want to do. You're not going to get won't back down. You're not going to get free fallen. You're not going to get any of those American girl. You're not going to get one of those fucking songs.

I don't know, it made me really happy to watch him do that. Yeah, I mean, I can only kind of know I'm ahead, I've been in those situations and I've done that version of that thing in those situations and got a lot of heat for it. Yeah, yeah. And I've done the other thing where you're doing what everybody wants you to do and you're just thinking, I'm just such a sellout, like get me off this island.

Yeah. Well, the next song is Metallica. Yes. And you had, you made an interesting choice. Yes. Because I believe this song, Fade to Black, was their first, was it power ballad? Is that fair to say? Um, I actually, I saw an interview with Lars talking recently about how it was controversial because Metallica used acoustic guitars and it wasn't very metal of them. Yeah. Yeah. Lars was just here. Oh, very. Talking on the podcast and, um, love Lars. Oh, my God. It was such a good time.

And, uh, every time he says Metallica, I, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. And he says Metallica a lot. Yeah. You did. Because it's. And he says Metallica a lot. Because it's a big part of his life. Yeah, God bless. But I say every time he says Metallica, I kind of chocle. Yeah.

Because only he says Metallica, like he says Metallica. Yes. So it's with pride of ownership and the way he says Metallica. Which is the, for him, the correct pronunciations. Yes. Well, yeah. Not Metallica. Metallica.

In this song, you know, I think this is their second, is this their second album? Yes. And... Rhythe Lightning. Yeah, Rhythe Lightning 1984. And this is them taking a big chance because it's an acoustic song,

or it starts out as an acoustic song. But then it goes to the Fiddly bit, yeah, which is... A technical term, which then it goes to the Fiddly bit, which is a technical term, which in the industry, the Fiddly bit, where there's Fiddles. Yeah. Do you want me to use on this or sorry, I don't want to wear a room for you. Yeah.

So I'd gotten kicked out of my house. My dad, I think he wasn't in jail at that point, but he was in some form of jail. Like work release where you got to be in the jail at night, but you could be out during the day. And he wasn't living with us anymore. And then I got kicked out by my stepmother, sat and up living with this drug dealer.

And I had this enduring memory where I latched onto the song because it seemed to sum up what I was going through, you know, this kind of existential crisis in my life. And I'd seen Metallica live and I'd seen the power of what they were creating. But I latched onto this song and, you know, this kind of existential crisis in my life. And I'd seen Metallica live and I'd seen the power of what they were creating. But I latched onto this song and you know, this is back in the day of the boom box. And so I remember sitting at the guy's kitchen table,

you know, where he used to, you know, fiddle the seeds out of the weed. That he'd sell to cute young teen girls and that's a story for another day. And I was playing the song over and over and over again. Like I must have played it 14 times in a row. And he came down and he was like, you got to leave like he threw me out

from listening to the song so many times. Like I basically went from... That drug dealer threw you out. Yeah, I was... That's how I know it. I was thrown out of my house and then, because of this song, I was thrown out of the drug-dress house where I was living.

Uh-huh. But yeah, it's interesting, because sometimes a band creates a song that's like, like you were talking about George Harrison before. Here comes the sun as well. I love the Beatles, but it seems to, even here comes the sun, seems almost like timeless beyond the Beatles. And to me, this is one of those songs from Metallica that somehow it lives beyond the band. Right.

It's like a movie unto itself. So, yeah, I mean, what a song. James is such a talented songwriter. And I don't know. I don't know what else to say other than it's just, it's, it's, it's, it seemed to sum up what I was going through at the time. Very good. So let's listen to it and see what it, what it brings up.

They do black. I never understand when I watch Metallica how they can, there's so much syncopation. see what it brings up. They do black. I never understand when I watch Metallica how they can, there's so much syncopation there that has to be so precise. And I don't understand how they can do that without a conductor. Do you know what I mean? It's really incredible to me.

Yeah, it's a feel thing when you play that type of music. I love that lyric in there. I think he sings, I was me, but now he's gone. I mean, if that's not a 17 year old, I'm not saying he was 17 when he wrote it, but I'm saying that's when you go after that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I still get the, I still get the feels on that.

This is great. Does that take you back when you hear that? Can you go, do you go, try and travel back to that point? I have a weird thing, and I've never heard it explain scientifically, but I have like a, I'm gonna stumble with the way to put it. I have a holographic memory when it comes to music so when I I can put myself back in the time and place emotionally when I heard the song and I have almost like total recall which is how I produce

records. So I'll be in the studio and I'll think like I want the feel of fade to black. Now that I want to make that song, but I want that feeling, I'm able to recall the emotional feeling, resonance of it, what I was getting from that and I'm able to recreate it in my own music. So it's a weird gift if you can even call it that. And it might be a curse sometimes. No, no, actually, I think it's really quite remarkable and I have no explanation. I've never seen it explain. And what's crazy is Jimmy Chamberlain has something very similar, which is why I think that we've always worked so well together. He has the similar ability to do that, but on the drums.

It's a weird thing. But yeah, I can, I literally could go on for 15 minutes on what I was thinking when I heard that song at 17 at the table for the drug dealer came down, like, you're using the feeling not like I was having a bad day. We did this same thing with Neil Young where we played. Neil was sitting right where you're sitting and we played some music. He sent in some music that I don't think he had listened to or thought about for a really long time and it was stuff that he was listening to in Canada in the 50s.

Del Shannon by chance. It wasn't Del Shannon. Do you remember it was, there were like, really, it was very foaky, some of it. So Ian and Sylvia, yeah. It was with Ian Tyson, yeah, yeah. For some ones. But that's a great version.

I know he covered that at one point. The first one. It was fascinating too, because it was very similar to watching Neil listen to those songs, and he would do what you're doing, which is close his eyes, really go there. And then he he came out of it after one song and it was like you I said, well, where were you right then? And he went, I remember there was a he described a jukebox and him standing there and it was, you know, whatever it was a nickel that you could put in to play the song and and he had a whole pocketful of them,

and he was standing there, and he would just feed the men and play it over and over and over again. That was his only access to the song. And one of his other memories was, underneath the covers, he could get this one radio station that would play. And remember, I think there was some rockabilly song. Yeah, by, I mean, Ronnie's self.

It was a bottle-leena. Oh my God, that's a killer song. And I had never heard it before, and I'm a rockabilly fanatic, and I it was a bottle-lina. Oh my God, that's the killer song. And I had never heard it before, and I'm a rock-ability fanatic, and I had never heard of a bottle-lina. I didn't know about Ronnie's self who had kind of a very strange career outside the lines, and never really quite made it.

And things didn't end happily for him, but just, but him just time traveling back to, he's not Neil Young, the Neil Young we know. He's a kid, and he's in some part of Canada where no one's ever going to be a rock star. That's not going to happen. And he's got the covers up and it's late at night and he's supposed to be asleep. He's got his transistor radio and he's hearing that song. And so to me, it's very mystical and powerful to be able to sit with people while they

listen to these songs. Yeah, maybe there's some universal language that people with musical ability speak or hear. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I find it fascinating that journalists never talk about that, which is why I like talking about it because it's like it's 90% of my experiences, what we're talking about here, right, and not all the other stuff, not throwing a TV out the window of the hotel room. No, I mean, that stuff's fun, but... It doesn't pay the bills.

Yeah. And what if someone's in the pool? The last song is Joy Division, and I have to admit, I didn't know much about Joy Division. And we got to get you on the Joy Division tip. Yeah, and I didn't know, and then you brought up this song. And of course, I know a lot now, more about Joy Division now. And what a really tragic story it was. Very much so. Yeah. Just their lead singer, guitarist, I believe also the songwriter or co-writer. They wrote together.

They wrote together. He wrote the lyrics. Yeah. And just how he started from epilepsy and depression and just what a 10. I don't think 24 years old. Yeah. He had killed himself. Yeah.

And I believe, and I think it's true, it was like on the eve of their US tour. They were just about to come to the US and I think he was under a lot of pressure. And he was legitimately worried that he would have Because he seizures were getting worse and worse that he was going to have a seizure on stage in front of people and so clearly someone who I mean just terrible Load to carry between that disease and depression and everything, but made this fantastic music. And clearly this level terrace apart speaks to you.

I started making the argument back in the 90s that Joy Division was probably the second most important band behind the Beatles in the 20th century. And when I made the argument back then, people kind of would make a face like, kind of sort of, and now people I think have kind of come around to it. And what is it that specifically was, it was the originality, it was the, well, a few of it. Well, a lot of people now would call it like post punk

or something, but what it really is is DIY musicians, creating great music without the conventional structures of music. If you think about, you were talking about rockabilly, okay, well, most rockabilly is based on 1, 4, 5, you know, 12 bar blues, stuff like that. Buddy Howley is probably predominantly 1, 4, 5. But he's a master at it. So imagine that all starts in the 50s, obviously coming out of jump blues in the 40s, T-bone Walker and stuff like that, and Count Basie. And then by the time

you get to the late 70s, rock and roll is pretty much run out of steam. Zeppelin's at the end, the who are not at the end, but you know, you could say their greatest work is behind them. Here comes punk, and you have all these people suddenly decide it doesn't matter how well you play, as long as you want to get up on stage and you got some some moxie, the crowd will sort of accept you. So out of that comes talking heads and the cure and psychedelic furs and to Pesh mode and but joy division to me was the greatest of them all. They capture a particular form of nihilism that's really hard to get that in a way that doesn't feel mockish or childish. There's an adultness to it. I know that's not really a word, but there's a sobriety and seriousness to it.

And because they were from Manchester, Manchester is like the Chicago of England, very working class. And it's worth pointing out that, you know, not the same, but the same area that's where Sabbath came from. and it's worth pointing out that, you know, not the same, but the same area that's where Sabbath came from. It's a certain kind of doom, but it's not the doom of hopelessness. It's the doom of like, oh my God. Like, is this the life you're meant to live? Living in the shadow of the new plan or the coal plan?

Or the, you know, and everybody around them is on drugs or drink and there's no future, no hope, all that stuff. So punk really was this kind of, no hope, all that stuff. So punk really was this kind of cry against like fuck it all. Somehow out of that comes this really beautiful language that's held up really, really well. And level terraced part to me is this perfect pop song from people who are not trying to write perfect pop songs.

It's such a strange thing. I have some Henry Darger, I don't know if you know that artist, he's a folk artist. He was an itinerant, sort of janitor, an orphan, grew up in an orphanage. Basically, for 50 years, painted these beautiful paintings that no one ever saw, and they only found them right before he died. And now there were hundreds of thousands of dollars. But it's the idea that there's a certain, if you take somebody who doesn't know how to make art and they just make art like a child would,

that there's a different type of beauty that emerges out of the innocence and the purity without having to go to art school. Right. So I think Joy Division is the great embodiment of like they're the anti-beetles. The beetles is about craft and consciousness I think Joy Division is the great embodiment of like they're the anti-beetles. The Beatles is about craft and consciousness and worrying about the world that's in front

of them and trying to figure out how to interface with Joy Division goes completely the opposite way and creates music of you could argue of equal importance that's still 50 years later is still inspiring people. So how many albums did they just have one or two? I think three albums. Level Tara's part, I think, was kind of towards the end of that particular arc before Ian killed himself. And then the only thing I would add to this

is that in Joy Division, then Morphedon, the new order, and of course everybody knows New Order, they became a more successful pop band using synthesizers and stuff like that and really created a completely different musical language. But when they reformed in 2001, they called me and said, we're going on this tour. Do you want to come play guitar with us on the tour? So when we would play, I did six shows with them, but they were going out as new order.

But for the first time since, I think I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure, for the first time since Ian had died in 2001, they decided to play Joy Division on stage with Bernard singing. So imagine I'm in rehearsal with them in Liverpool or wherever we were. And when you play the new order songs, they're playing with the backing tracks synthesizers all that, but when they would play the joy division,

there were no backing tracks. Now I'm on stage with Joy Division. Now, the best way I can explain it is, I I'm on stage with Joy Division. Now the best way I can explain it is, I've been on stage with Cheap Trick. I played at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with three quarters of Pink Floyd. When you stand on stage with the band and you're in the middle of that, it is intense. Because now you're in the three-dimensional space of their world. You're in the record with them. And every time I'm getting goosebumps telling you about this, every time in rehearsal and on stage, every time we play

level terraces apart, I would get goose flesh by whole body, would go into complete, like, I cannot believe it. And I'm not talking about a fan experience, like, oh my God, I'm playing with Joy Division. I'm like, I am in the, I'm in in the song and I'm experiencing inwardly what I experienced as a listener and it's 10 times more intense in the thing than outward. So, I mean, yeah, this is the real deal. This one to me. All right. What's the letter rip? Love will tear us apart. Joy to vision. When you played on that song, what were you? What was your, were you playing rhythm? Were you playing, do you remember what you were doing? They let me do whatever I wanted to do.

And it was kind of funny because they're from that world of everybody should just do what they feel. But I was getting in the kind of sacrosanct territory where they'd created this beautiful thing. And at times I would get these side long looks like you're kind of going in the space as you shouldn't go. So it was a little bit of a negotiation. Sure. But invariably I settled on the idea of like, I get it, because I've been in that situation as a band leader. Like, this is the way it goes, but there's a, like, what's sacred about it isn't whether or not I play the right

note in the right spot. This is like where it's coming from in your heart. And so invariably I think they just kind of let it go and then it got better. In essence, they let me do my thing. They worried about what they were doing and then it started to click. And then it just kind of, it was what it was. There's something about, again, I don't have the words for it and I might, it was maybe nothing, but when I listen to this song, it almost sounds like the vocals are mixed. They're almost, I mean,

I'm not used to it, but usually the vocals on when you're listening to a song are so present. when you're listening to a song are so present and here they're unusually submerged almost they're just under the surface a little bit which is kind of makes it more haunting. You know? Yeah, it strikes me because when you listen to it, it's not a perfect recording, it's not perfectly mixed. You can't hear every lyric and yet it's one of the most famous songs of the 20th century. And it reminds me of what I said when I was inducting Pink Floyd in the rock and Rahul of Fame. Nobody was looking over my shoulder because I could say whatever I wanted. And one of the lines I said in there was, you know, it strikes me that the band you're inducting tonight is one of the greatest selling bands

of all time and created one of the best selling albums of all time, Dark Sighted Moon, which is essentially a conceptual record that I think only really produced the one hit, which was money, which is a song in 5'4", not necessarily a wall sing Matilda, not necessarily a pop. You can't really dance to it. And I looked and it was meant to be a funny line but like with a little bit of a shiv behind it. And I said and by the way they made that album at the height of disco. And I said I know everybody and I know that there are many people in this room that are totally responsible for disco and I haven't forgotten you and I won't forget your name. And there was this weird like,

one of those like, you mother fucker laughs. Yeah, yeah, like how dare you say that? Yeah. But that's the point is we're talking about in our own way and it's always hard to find the language. We're talking about magic. Comedy is magic, music is magic. What makes people laugh?

There's a lot of talk these days because of, you know, woke politics about. You can't say this and you can't say that. I mean, art is supposed to get into the uncomfortable space. Yes, it is. Yeah. Just the fact like you were talking about Ian's vocals being mixed low, did that make you listen differently? Did it make you pay a different attention? Really got my attention when I was listening to the song. And of course, I've heard the song many times, but I was really noticing accidents. It's the same thing in comedy and music and probably in a lot of things, accidents are where the goal is. And I don't know if it's an accident, but you said maybe they didn't mix it correctly,

but it certainly makes the song. It's much more haunting that whether it's a, as you say, an engineering error or someone more or more or I think I'm sorry, but I think those are all intentional choices. Okay. Yeah. You know, I just, it's, it's, to me, that was arresting. Like, I really got my attention because the, you know, it was like, I think I can hear him, but he's really back there.

We're on the precipice of AI kind of taking over a bunch of things, right? And I'm already out there ringing the clarion bell that once kids get their hands on AI as a songwriting tool, it's over for the organic process of songwriting. Because if you're 15, you have to spend 10,000 hours listening to the Beatles, enjoy Division to learn how to write a song versus you can punch a button. It's gonna give you seven options and then you could pick the best option off of that.

And then you can refine that and it pressed another button. It'll tell you a better version of what you think's a good version and all that. It's over. Are we willing? And I'm just saying this in one of those kind of, you know, it's like, I feel like Jason Robards would start in the movie.

I'm about to this in one of those kind of, you know, it's like, I feel like Jason Robards would start in the movie. I'm about to. Yeah. Right. You know, we're not around anymore. So you may have to do it. I gladly play Jason Robards in the movie. But what I'm trying to say is, you know, the guy gives the warning. Yep.

Yep. Hey, by the way, do you really want to live in the world where you're willing to give up level terraces apart? The imperfectly made, perfect song. Yeah. Are you willing to give that up for all this other perfect shit, which it really isn't that great? And unfortunately, we know in human nature that yes, they will. Yeah. But this way, I can, can you see where people are going to have AI

start writing their jokes? Oh, sure. Right. Yeah. Hey, give me, give me 50 jokes on grandma in the kitchen. Yeah. You know what I mean? What's something that they're everybody. It's got everybody's attention. I mean, everybody in the, as we've record this, there's a writer's strike going on and that's, this is one of the issues people are afraid of is what's coming up ahead and can these, what happens when these big companies realize we don't really. I think that needs to be made.

Nears aren't even made. Yeah. I'm not trying to be that guy, but I'll be that guy today. I think that decision has already been made. I mean, it's easy to say it like this like Chicago style. It's over. Bro, you know what I mean? But it's over.

Like the ship's already sailed. That's why when you see people arguing about $20 minimum wage, yeah, well, McDonald just opened the first fully automated McDonald's. It's over. Like all that stuff's over. We're going to have to adjust to a new economy on every scalable level.

I mean, there are already people talking about worshiping AI as a God. The PR people talking about, like, it's a religious thing. Like, there's a Jason Robards movie, right? So, I'm at least glad I lived in the other world before I go into this other one. So, at least I'll have the memory and I can tell my children what it was like to listen to joy division. They're not going to be listening to you. AI will have taken over that too.

You will not be parenting these children. Maybe that's a good thing. That's a quick story. So I made the mistake. It's a fine game. So nothing against Nintendo, but I made the mistake of buying a Nintendo Switch. I have a seven year old son and a four year old daughter. So of course all they want to do all day is play Nintendo. They said Nintendo so many times. I said you can't say the word Nintendo anymore,

but you can refer to it as Nana. So they come up and they go, Dad, can we play Nana? Because they know if they say Nintendo, it'll diminish their chances of playing Nana. Yeah. So where was I going with the story? I think you reprogram them. No, but I, oh, there we go. So maybe I just go, no, when they come to that, can we play Nana? Let's go to the AI. You know, I'm sorry. I love you. You know, the Conan, the Conan chat GP. Yes. You have your own, you'll have your own AI. Oh, I'll go to Conan AI. You'll have your own AI. I'll go to Conan AI. They'll have figured out,

I mean, because when I just missed their hopes and dreams, it'll at least come with a rye comment. Yes, yes. They can, I'm sure, whether it's serious or whoever, they've already, there's a room where they've figured out my vocal tone, just the right irritating amount. Somebody just released, I haven't listened to it,

but somebody released an AI version of Kurt Cobain singing a pumpkin song. Really? Yeah. I haven't listened to it yet, but I think it's today, the song today. Do you want to listen to it or is it one of those things you'll take out?

I have no interest in it because it's sort of like, it's not Kurt. Well, it's also a parlor trick, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want parlor tricks. I mean, right, it's cheapy, right? Like, if I came to see you and you just gave me a bunch of lame jokes, that's not why I'm coming to see you.

Well, that's what you're gonna get. Okay, well, God bless. I don't work that hard anymore. I've never, I don't know Dice, you know what I mean? And I've seen Dice perform live a couple times. I never laughed so hard in my life. I felt like he was in my brain, saying stuff that he has a way of saying stuff that's not even funny.

Yes, he does. But he says it in a way that's so insidious, it's like planning mine virus bombs in my head. And I mean, I could, or I saw Bob Zimuda as Tony Clifton. Yes, yeah. I laughed so hard I got mad at him. And I know him a little bit personally.

I want to just strangle him. Right. Because I was like, stop making me laugh at this other kind of creepy level that you can only you can do. Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Dice has a thing where there's a famous recording of him bombing in a club.

I think he calls it the night the laughter died. That is so funny. And it listened to it too. It's so funny because he's doing his thing and he's not getting anything back. And I like that better than hearing someone who did that on purpose. Yes, yes.

Because Rick Rubin, who produced that, said, you know, he did the very Rick Rubin thing with the beard and Buddha, Buddha Rick, and we were taught, because I knew we knew Dyson, he was obviously there when Dyson was headlining a read isn't all that stuff. And he did the, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta really really gotta listen to his the night comedy diet or whatever it's called. Yes, yeah. That shit is funny. And it's so inappropriate.

It's the one you wanna talk about. I mean, he, it's, there's about 8,000 things in there to get canceled. There's a famous dice story that I love that my, my sweetie, one of my great writers tells, but it was dice in a club before he had, you know, become a big star and he did borrowed someone, part of someone else's act because he didn't have the rest of his act that night. And he was still putting all the other newrows someone else's act and the person confronted him afterwards and said, like, hey man, you took some of my stuff when he went, he said, hey, I'm trying to make it. I don't have time to fuck around.

That's an excuse. In a way, I kind of, you're like, okay, it's so audacious. I don't have time to fuck around. We gotta call this, because we have talked and talked and I have to let you back to your life, you know? I don't have a life, I'm just here. I exist here in like a broth, like a brain floating in a tank. They won't let me go, but I was really looking forward to this

and you met all my expectations, exceeded them. You're just a great person to talk to. You didn't cry though. I'm incapable of that. Did you ever cry on air? I don't think so. Not that I remember. I don't, I'm Irish. We hide all that. Yeah. I mean, I'm predominantly Irish. Yeah, we that's all been sure that that's all been It was beaten out of us in the 1800s. Yeah, exactly that that ship sailed a long time ago This was this was great and I loved having and I swear to God I meant this point in my life where the thing I prize the most is that I get to, you and I have cross paths in the past, but to get to sit with you and really have a conversation is magical and meaningful

to me. So thank you for doing this. Yeah, most of our conversations were in loud clubs, yeah, with really desperate, goal-dicking people. So we never really got to get to the deep stuff until today. This was really special. And I just want to reiterate that you have so much going on. Autumn, which is a rock opera in three parts, is your latest, what's the latest volume? You're continuing the journey. I think so, yeah. Yeah.

Melancholy and infinite sadness and machinea, like this is carrying, you're carrying on in that story. And you have a tour, the world is a vampire tour, starts July 28th and you're gonna incorporate some wrestling. We will have wrestling on the road. That's fantastic. Most of the dates, yeah.

I don't know, oldest wrestling promotion, the world, the NWA, so. That is fantastic. That's its own, we should do wrestling. So that is fantastic. That's its own. We should we should do wrestling podcast like yeah, yeah, that could be a separate thing. I can be part two, but some other time, but I did. I got some good stories for you there. I'll show you a clip one day of me.

I was taping weird comedy down in Mexico City and I taped the whole segment where I was a lucha door. Oh, and I had a I had the whole thing, the mask and I, they were teaching me how to do it. And I had the time of my life. I absolutely loved it. It's an interesting world. I'll throw on a mask and come on and, uh, and wrestle while you play. Well, there was red bestie.

And I think it was known as the red baron making. Mm-hmm. I could do that. He's passed away and I you could be the red baron too. Yeah. People will say, I'll be masked. No one will know it's me, but they'll say not at all. Something's very wrong with that man's body. And also the podcast. So we finished that now. We saw it. There's 33 episodes of it. But you can still hear them. Yeah. Yeah. But 33 was no longer in, we were no longer in contemporary time. But who is? Did I get too deep there?

I don't know. Now, I feel like you've posed some sort of deeper question that I can answer. That's a good way to end. We'll just leave it on a hanging, a partist, a goal or whatever it's called. Billy, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonom of Sessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley, executive produced by Adam Sachs, Nick Leal, and Jeff Ross at

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