Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Charli XCX

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

Singer-songwriter Charli XCX feels nervous about being Conan O’Brien’s friend. Charli sits down with Conan to discuss starting out in London’s underground rave scene, experiencing pop stardom secondhand before skyrocketing to fame, and highlighting moral complexity in her new mockumentary film The Moment. Later, a listener review prompts Conan, Sona, and Matt imagine what life would be like as siblings to one another. For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone]. Get access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/conan. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hi, my name is Charlie X-E-X. I feel nervous about being Conan O'Brien's friend. All is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brandy shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens. I can tell that we are going to be friends. Hey there, welcome to Conan O'Brien needs a friend. always by Sona Moseccian. You didn't change your last name when you got married. I didn't change it.

No, it's a lot of paperwork. Yeah, and a lot of consonants. What? What's taxed last name? Is it Tkosian? No, it's not Tukesian. I always think it's his first name plus Azizian. I know, but that's not how Armenian names work.

It's a lot of consonants in it. Yeah, it's a lot of letters that like really shouldn't be next to each other. Like the V and the S. Oh, I know. It's an explosion at a Campbell Soup factory. Okay, who has an apostrophe in his last name? How awful is that? I'm here in my glass house.

I'm firing stones. I thought I was safe and apparently I'm not. And Matt Gurley joining us as well. There's a fine name. Matt Gorley, none of your O apostrophe, Brian or Muzuzuzzi. It used to be Mac Gorley. Long, long ago. What?

Mac Gorley. You were Mac Gourley? No, I'm told the last name. Oh, you got rid of the Mac? Well, I didn't personally. I've just heard long ago that it was Mac Gorg. Oh. Matt Gourley.

You guys are looking at me like I did this. So your name would be Matt McGorley? That's impossible to say. I wouldn't think I would be named Matt. Matt, Matt McGorley. You know what? They dropped it. I think they was Matt Gourley until you were born and you were born Matt.

So they knew that they had to lose the Mac. Yeah. He was born with a hi, my name is Matt on his chest. I was. You know, it's interesting that we're talking about birth and related matters. Nice. Because you are going to be taking a leave of absence for a while. And this is big news.

What's going on? Well, I'm having a baby. Yay. Not my wife. I am. Yeah, you're doing it all yourself. No. So when?

I won't say ask when specifically, but this is going to happen soon. Yeah. I mean, God only knows it may already have happened the way this seems to be going. Who knows? Amanda's just got this feeling that it's coming early. So, yeah, this is a girl. We're having another little girl. It's amazing.

Over the moon. I'm excited about this. Well, you know, I think I'm the first one to make this analogy, but to me it just feels like, you know, you're going from one-on-one defense to zone. Is that something I just thought of? Well, that implies that I understand sports in any way. Also, it implies that I've never heard a thousand people say that. Well, you've had two kids. You obviously have two kids, but they came at once.

So you kind of won the lottery and getting it over with it. I did. I know a lot of people think twins is hard, but I think having a little kid and a baby and doing that all over again, that's harder. Yeah, because Glenn is already anticipating it. I mean, two at the same time. I can't even imagine that.

I know. And one punched the other out first. Is that what happened? There was a brawl inside the womb. Oh, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Mikey punched Charlie and he went flying out like the way cowboys would fly out of a bar room.

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of brawl still happening. Did you have little windows down there that went in a saloon doors? Yeah. And punch and then Oh, God. This is highly problematic. Did you hear piano music?

Bamp Bim, bim, and punch. Anyone flying out? Mikey punched Charlie. Charlie goes flying out. And then, wow, Mikey comes out himself to finish the job and they just punched each other down the hallway of the hospital. That's how my birth happened.

Well, sorry. Just can't get that image of the saloon doors. Don't. Because what I think, you're talking about my vagina. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Do you mean your saloon door? That's horrible. Is your vagina spring loaded? Oh, my God.

Does it go? Anyway, I just like the idea of saloon music coming out. Listen. So I had a C-section. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So your stomach is a saloon door?

Yeah. Oh, God. No, no, that's different. That's different. That's a cellar door, you know. You leave. Kid looks around, sees a tornado coming. Not yet. Goes back in again.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Get in here, Toto. Hurry. Hurry. So anyway. Oh, my God. Viginas are saloon doors.

C-sections are, of course, Kansas. Kansas cellar doors. So, well, this is, let's get back to the real story here, which is that you and Amanda are having a second child. This is very exciting. It's exciting. I'm old to be a dad, so it just. No, you're not. Yeah, I mean, I am.

I mean, this is just not how it's typically done, but that's how it's going to happen. And that's just. When you're not old to be a dad? Look at, I think, Michael Douglas, I think, had children when he was. Robert De Niro, Al Pacino. They're having children at 80. Yeah. Doesn't it seem wrong?

You're young compared to them. Compared to them. Yeah. They'll have the same bedtime. I go to bed before my children already. Did that just seem picturing Al Pacino in the crib with the baby. I guess it's good night. What do you bring me some crackers?

You're going to get a swidex. The hell, it's only six. I can't believe we're in here. Give me my milk. Have you noticed that mama has the big ass? Well, anyway, it's a lot of people are doing it and they're much younger than you. Yeah, I know. So it's going to be fun.

Older than you, you mean. I'm saying, you're right. You know what I just revealed? This is what I'm saying. I just revealed that I'm too old to be a dad. I can't think properly. Oh, no. Yeah, that thing that Sona said, that's what I meant.

Yeah. You're much younger than they are. LA, baby. Everyone's having babies. Yeah, yeah. You're like a studio head. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're going to be in a house full of girls, including your cat. I know. I'm going to be the only man.

You know what? And then even that's pushing it. Yeah. I know. If, yeah, if you need to boost the testosterone around there, I'll stop by. Oh, dear. We don't need a deficit. Why did estrogen levels just spike? I'll come. I'll get there. I'll do it.

I'll stop by. You know what? Yes. Yeah. So, it is very exciting. And how long are you going to be departing for? I'm going to be gone for about three months, but I'm sure. That's way too long.

I know. This is, hey, man, it's modern times. Paternity leave. Yeah, baby. Wow. You know who would not like this conversation at all? My wife. Oh.

Because I never got any maternity leave. And she was like, what's going on? I'm going to do another show, baby. Yeah. America demands it. Turns out they didn't. But don't worry, Amanda will be here in my place. Very good.

Oh, nice. She would. I will be popping in and out just because we've recorded ahead someone's stuff like that. You know what I mean? Like next episode, I think I'll be there for the interview and things like that,

so it may seem... Quick question, and I don't want this to sound crass or bullying or in any way intimidating. Do you get paid while you're gone? That's a question I have for you. Yeah, good question. Adam, how does this stuff work? You don't have to answer that.

I don't want you to be on the spot. Well, I'm an independent contractor. I'm not salary. Perfect. I'm sorry. You also, you support paternity leave and a man bombing with his new child.

Listen, I want to make sure that everyone's taken care of and I believe in everyone having good child care. But of course, my hands are tied. I am but a figurehead on the SS Conan O'Brien. Is it just going to be me and you? Yeah. Okay.

No, wait. I think David's going to sit in. We'll get some David in here. Yeah, we'll get David to sit in. Of course, Blay will be yelling and pitching a mile a minute. Oh, yes. Yep. Hey, guess what?

With those kind of energy nuggets, we can't go wrong. Yeah, and I reserve the right. If there's some stellar guest, I'm coming in. Oh, trust me. Yeah. Hey, the whole cast of Blithelblur, they're cast men of the Sith. I don't know. What?

Man of the Sith? No, men of the Sith. Men of the Sith? That sounds like a Star Wars erotic calendar. I would watch that. That's when I watch Star Wars. Oh, men of the Sith. Little Battle.

And also Men of the Sith. I said it like there was vomit in my mouth. Men of the Fifth. Men of the Sith. Well, listen. The 2026 erotic men of the Sith calendar. Oh, man, check out February. His dizzle dazzle goes on forever.

Oh, boy. Listen, we should get into it. And listen, sincere, Congratulations to you. Thank you. I joke, I'm thrilled. You are thrilled. I know you.

I'm anticipating it very much, so I'm nervous, but I'm excited. Okay, well, good, could be a godfather. Here we go. Today's guest. That was awkward. Today's guest. Gosh, oh. It was good enough for Sona's kids, but that was just weird.

Hey, you want to hear real awkwardness? Just press rewind, just a little bit. hear the sound of just nothing. Nothing. Hey, today's guest is a Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter who now stars is a fictionalized version of herself in a terrific new mockumentary film, which I've seen and I loved it the moment. We're very excited she's here today. Charlie X-E-X. Welcome. I might be your polar opposite in every way.

Although I'm huge in the clubs. You should know that. Yeah. Huge in the clubs. I'm huge in the London club scene. I bet. You just never saw me, but I was huge. But my daughter and I saw your movie two days ago and loved it, really loved it.

And when the movie was over, my reaction was, well, I don't worry about her. because you are so smart, it is such a smart movie. And I think just the right thing for you to be doing at this moment. And we'll talk about that in a bit. We'll really get into it. But I just wanted to start by saying, A, my team gets to see a lot of cool people. They're pretty excited today to the point where when your car pulled up, people ran up to the window. Oh, my God.

Everyone who works from me, and they're all young. They run up to the window. And they were like, it's a white explorer. It's a Ford. It's a Ford. I'm like, get away from the window. I threw myself on the hood. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Yeah, we hit him off with the wipers. You turn on the wipers? Yeah, yeah, good for you. Yeah. But you're a very inspiring person because I love the arc of your career. It hasn't all come quickly for you. But it's been amazing.

And what I wanted to start with was just kind of your origin story, your superhero origin story, which is you kind of lived dual lives growing up. Yes. Because your mom and your dad came from completely different worlds. Is that right? True. Yeah. Yeah.

My mom grew up in Uganda. Her and her family had been there for years. She's Indian. And she was removed from the country by Idi Amin in the 70s. Right. And then she came to the... UK then and her and her family were kind of like, you know, rehoused. And I remember she told me it was like when when they touched down in in the UK, weirdly at the airport that's kind of like opposite where

my parents still live now, she'd never experienced snow before. And this was like the first time she had ever been somewhere so cold. And they gave all of the kids these are huge fur coats. So she's kind of like Stebbing off the plane Wait, why are they handing her a pimp code Yeah, I don't know So she's like It was kind of a cool welcome

I guess When you go to Hawaii you get a lay When you come to London Yeah you get a giant fur coat Wow, welcome So they were kind of like Swagged out I guess And then my dad

He is adopted And his adopted family is Scottish So you know we say he's Scottish But he grew up kind of like where they raised me and yeah, they met in a club on New Year's Eve. So, am I right? You were born in Cambridge, which I was in Cambridge weeks ago. How is it that I haven't been back for a minute.

It's Hogwarts. I was hanging around at the university and it was just, oh my God, Hogwarts exists. Yeah, totally. And this is it. But it was lovely. It's almost like a theme part because it's exactly what you think, the quintessential old British. you know, university should look like.

Yes. But you then have this kind of, I wouldn't say schizophrenic, but dual world that you're living in, where if you're hanging out in your dad's world in whether it's Essex or Cambridge, you feel like an outsider of imagining in some ways. And then if you're visiting with your mom's people, that's a whole different experience. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's funny. It's like I grew up, yeah, in Essex.

and I went to school in a town called Bishop Stortford. And it was like a lot of white kids, you know, predominantly. And then on the weekends I would go and kind of visit my mom's side of the family who lived like in Crawley. And that was a very much more like traditionally Indian set up. Like big family gatherings, so much food. Bollywood playing in the background speaking Gujarati

except I never really learned much apart from Jolly Jolly which means quick quick that's like all I know That's really all you need to know Yeah yeah and then you know like sometimes like doing prayer and like sometimes going to mosque and things like that

and then like yeah not really having any of that kind of experience when I was like going to school or during the weeks really And it was kind of hard to really feel that I fit into either world, I suppose, because most of my classmates' sort of touch point for an Indian person was a poo on the Simpsons. Right, right. So it was like that was what an Indian person was, you know? So it was very like, it was a bit jarring.

but also it was also, I must say, like, it was like, okay, you know, it was like, my mom had to struggle a lot more with dealing with kind of racism and things like that when she was not only growing up, but even when she was living in our town, like I remember one day she came home because she'd kind of had like a milkshake thrown over her and been told to go home and things like that. And I've, you know, been very lucky that I haven't had to experience that, probably because I'm a lot more passing than she is. But yeah, it is interesting kind of being from both worlds and not particularly feeling like I belonged in either. And it's also funny because I think doing what I do now, I definitely feel that sometimes when I Google myself, which I do, I sometimes see that people are sort of like mad. that I don't really talk about this side of my life that much.

But the reason that I don't is because no one asks me. So now that you have kind of sat here and asked me, I'm more than willing and happy to talk about it. I just feel very awkward about using like my culture as a USP. Like I find it to be kind of a little bit grotesque. And it's not something that I feel like I really want to do because there are parts of me that feel distant from both sides of my upbringing.

But when someone asked me about it, I'm so happy to talk about it. I don't know what you think about this, but I've always had this notion or theory that it's good for an artist to be maybe slightly uncomfortable when they're younger. That may sound like, oh, that can't be true. But I feel there's something to the idea

that not feeling particularly cool when you're a kid or not being sure what your identity is. It's like the sand in the oyster that gives you the pearl. It may be something that you can access. Is that possible for you? Oh my gosh, 100%. And I wouldn't say that that just comes from my heritage. It's like that, I think, for me, comes from feeling I felt like I was a loser.

You know, like, it was like coming, which, and I feel like so many artists have that experience of like, They're just, they just feel so isolated and alone and uncool and all, you know, all the things or whatever, I don't know. And I definitely felt that way and still do. And, you know, I think it's like actually why I used the word nervous at the top of this is because often when I meet people, I'm at a party and it's nighttime. And there are so many additional things that can help me feel relaxed. You know what I mean?

We're talking about hot chocolate. Yes, yeah. And I'm not drinking hot chocolate right now. You know what I mean? So it's like... Oh, then you should try hard drugs. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt, she doesn't know what hard drugs are.

I don't. Everyone thinks I do, but I just, I don't. But, yeah, so it's like in the cold light of day, sometimes I do get a little bit nervous. And I kind of revert back to that. that younger girl who I think sometimes would feel really out of her comfort zone when meeting people and feeling like, you know, you have to sort of like establish that you're like a functioning human with a brain and things like that. And sometimes there's like, ah. Yeah. So, yeah.

But I'm telling you, there's, I think a lot of people listening can relate to this. It's a lot of people that would look at you and the stunning, astounding success you've had in the career you've had. and say, oh, she's just cool and she knows it and that's who she is. And they don't understand the chemistry behind it. There needs to be moments, big moments where you're insecure, where you think, I don't have any ideas, sometimes imposter syndrome. Everybody, all the people I admire have that in moments. Of course. And they can access it.

I'm someone who can go up in front of a lot of people and take charge and be perfectly in control, but I can also in a second, after I'm done with my performance, access the me that's 16 years old, bad skin, doesn't know how to talk to girls, way too skinny, feels like a loser. That person is always lurking around and I can access that person, whether I want to or not, in a second. That's just part of the formula. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think it's the sort of, the kind of duality of both that makes a good artist. I can imagine if you're just, just so, like, chill and confident and happy with yourself all the time, you'd make terrible art. I know what I mean?

Probably. Yeah, exactly. No, that's why, you know, nothing would enrage me more than if a really good-looking guy that I knew in high school who was an incredible athlete went on to become the seminal artist. Right. That would be enraged. No, it's a nightmare. I would say, no, whatever success I have is my consolation prize for years of celibacy. You don't need to know about that, Charlie.

That's my problem, not your problem. Okay, I'm going to tell you a way that your parents are different than mine. There's many ways, but this is the biggest one that stands out to me, the way that my parents are different from Charlie X, X, X, X,'s parents. Your parents took you to perform at illegal raves. Never happened with me. Right. And I heard that fact, and I thought, this is really interesting,

because you were young at the time, they were taking you to illegal raves. These are parents who really, they were out of their comfort zone, especially your mom, to go to a rave and to take you to this world is a level of support that, to me, feels phenomenal. Yeah, of course.

I mean, obviously at the time, I was like, can you guys wait outside? You're, like, cramping my style. You know, I was, like, so ungrateful in a way. Because who wants to go to the rest? with their parents. It's so fucking embarrassing. Especially when they jump on stage.

Yeah, you know, you know, it's like, you're like, oh, God. But like, also I will say they were very, very respectful of my space and stuff when we went. And yes, now with hindsight, I'm like, wow, that is so cool of them. Like, they didn't have to do that. Like, they kind of, like, drove me up there and would sort of, like, hang out in the back. And this is, like, late stuff. This is, like, I would go on at 4 a.m. You know what I mean?

Like, and they were, they were, yeah. Yeah, like so, so kind of cool of them to do that. I will say, like, when I said to them that I really had this big plan to, like, move in with one of the rave promoters when I was 16 in a warehouse in Hackneywick, they drew the line there. And they were like, that sounds like a bad idea. And I was like, does it? I think it sounds amazing. And they were like, yeah, yeah, no. So they were supportive.

You know, I like them even more now. I know, yeah, no, no. They did draw the line. Yeah, they're great. And I think it's cool. It's like my dad was very much kind of like a self-made guy. You know, he like worked like super hard his whole life, like working class background, like really kind of like did his thing and did everything that he could to kind of have, you know, more for himself. And I think he was very much like with the whole rave stuff, he was kind of like, oh, like if you're really passionate about this.

then you should go and perform because maybe then you can do that for real. And I think most parents would kind of be like, you shouldn't do that. That feels unreliable and stressful and why don't you pursue something else. But I think he was always a bit of a dreamer, which sounds like a horrid sort of cheesy thing to say, but he really was. And so I think for him it was like, oh, if you're passionate about something, that's really cool. Like let's try and like figure that out. And I feel very, very, very lucky for that. You know, it's very cool.

Do you ever say to yourself, I could have been a really good tax attorney? All the time. All the time, yeah. Because when I was watching your movie, I was like, I'm sorry. I said she's amazing, but tax attorney. And we don't have a lot of them. I know, I know, I know. Yeah, my side hustle.

That would be so great if that was your side hustle. After a massive show, where are you going? Well, I've got to go over these. Yeah. Who does your books? W-2. As a kid, you were listening to Spice Girls, no doubt, Britney Spears. And then at some point, at a young age,

you start thinking about writing yourself. And that is a leap. What does the early, early writing for you look like? Is it pen and paper and trying to write things out in a book? Or is it playing around with a musical instrument? It was a lot of keyboard playing the keyboard. I had like this Yamaha keyboard and I was like making a lot of beats on there and then like recording kind of separately all the different layers.

So yeah, it was kind of like writing lyrics and then trying to figure out chords and very much like piano orientated. And I think it all began because I had this boyfriend who, turned out to be gay and honestly all the signs were so there he was like the coolest um and like not many like you know what I mean not many like 15 year old boys are like that cool and he was like so cool he had great style great tape he made me a mixtape of stuff that I'd like never heard before and I think it was like that was kind of like the moment where I was like oh like he kind of like opened my eyes to all of these different artists that I hadn't really been listening to that

much before, like, some kind of indie bands and then stuff like Gang of Four and like, I don't know, like a lot of stuff that I had not really, like it hadn't been on my radar. And at that point, I think I kind of had the hunger to try and write things myself a bit more. Yeah. Well, I mean, step number one is always you have to put stuff into the machine. You have to open up your head and a volume of not just a type of music, but every type of music. And they call it having big ears, but just the more stuff you're listening to at an early age, I swear to God, they're going to figure out that it happens almost on a neurological level. You can redirect. Your synapses can grow. Right. You can teach yourself that it's a big musical world out there and it becomes part of you,

but a lot of it's just osmosis. It's just listening, listening, listening. Something that really interests me about your career, which is there's so many ways that I can't relate to what you do. I admire it, but I can't relate to it. And one thing I can relate to is that I started as a writer and I would write for other people. I would write things for other voices. And I listened and watched a lot of comedy, but then I would write for someone, a known performer. And I did that for years before I sort of solidified my thing. And I think, I know early, on, you're writing for a lot of other people, and that was your way in. And in some ways, it's helpful because you can observe. You're clearly, you know, crazy intelligent. You could

observe other people how they're living, what it's like to be a huge star, and you can stand off of it for a little bit and participate, but not get the full blast right away. Does that sound right? Kind of. It's interesting. It's like there is this misconception that I was writing for people first. I actually made a record first and it was really, really good and it was like critically claimed, but it sold about honestly like 11 copies. It was like really like no one bought it, basically. No one bought it. No one really heard of it. Apart from like the five people who reviewed it, love them, you know. But like there was like a small fan base of people who were into it. It was called true romance. And I was signed at that time to Atlantic Records and I'm

I'm pretty sure they would have dropped me like there and then after that album. And at this point in time, this is God, what, like 2012? I could be so wrong, 2013. But this was like a point in time where, like, record labels had so much more power over an artist in their career. And whether they could even have a career. I mean, I think it's so different now. But back then, it was like, especially being a woman making pop music, it was like, if you didn't have a label, like, forget about it.

You know what I mean? But right at the kind of end of that album campaign, which it wasn't even a campaign, it just came out, whatever. Like, I wrote this song called I Love It, which was sung by this Swedish band called Iconopop. And that became a big song. And I think that started my career of writing for others. And if I hadn't had that, then, yeah, it probably would have been, you know, accountant or whatever for me. Tax.

Listen. And let me point out there's still time. I know. I know. And I know a guy who can help you. Great, great. And I know your team doesn't like what I'm taking you down. No, they love it.

I mean, it's responsible. If you would take three years off, let's hear me out. First law school. We'll do it later. Yeah. Good, good. Well, that song, too, I know you're singing on that song as well. I am, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, that experience of you getting your music across and working with another artist or through another artist, you have that period of time, you have this long arc of making very successful music. I mean, my daughter, who I told you,

is a massive fan, has been listening to for years long before Brat and was a fan of yours. And then, so when the moment comes that Brad comes out, Brad's summer, the whole cultural phenomenon of that, you're probably maybe a little better prepared if you can be prepared for something like that? For sure.

I mean, 100%. It's funny, like I guess as an artist, I had already sort of like dabbled in like commercial success through, yeah, the songs I had written for other people and been a feature on. And, you know, that had like literally taken me around the world and been allowed me to perform on different stages and things like that.

So I kind of had this like secondhand experience, as you were saying, of like pop star success. But it wasn't, I was sort of like the one like photo bombing the photo rather than like in the main center frame. But it was cool. You know, I was cool with that. But yeah. And then I sort of, I had my own song, this song called Boom Clap, which was in this film called Fulton Our Stars. And that was my sort of big like, oh, now she's going to do it. And I like, it didn't really happen.

Like I don't think I was ready. then. Like I didn't really, I didn't really like have my brain like fully dialed as like an artist brain in a way. Like I wasn't connecting all the pieces of the puzzle together in the, in the way that I, I do now when I think about my work. And then after that I kind of like went into this other world of, okay, now I'm going to kind of really like make underground stuff and work with like my freaky friends and things like that. And so when Brat happened and people were into that record. I was actually kind of at this point where I was kind of like,

I'm just going to make this record for me. And I don't really care of anybody else likes it. This is for me. This is for my fans. I felt like I was at a point in my career where I could really sustain, like, being able to do what I wanted. Even if the album wasn't like commercially successful, I was like totally at peace with it.

And I'd been so swinging on the pendulum back and forth between what I wanted as a person, as an artist, prior to that. But with this record, I was down the line. Like, I am ready for it to flop. And I am going to stand by it. I love it. Like, this is for me and my fans who, like,

give a fuck about what I'm doing. Yeah. And then obviously, like, it didn't really happen like that. Like, a lot more people than my hardcore fan base were into the record. And I think because I had had this prior journey before of, like, you know, being in the background of the photos and like kind of like having this sort of like almost type moments. I felt yeah, like I kind of like seen so much and I'd also like experienced so much of what the industry is and how people come and go and how people treat

you when you're on top versus when you're not. And I think not to be not to sound jaded. It's not that I was jaded. I think I'm just quite realistic. about fame and the industry and how serious or unsuriously you need to take it. And yeah, I don't know. I feel, I feel like really thankful that I got to have the experience that I had prior to rat because I think it, I think I would have been a nightmare if I hadn't. Like, honestly, like, really, like, I think it would have been like quite a dangerous, like, concoction of things all coming together.

It makes you feel sorry or have empathy for people. There are people that have that when they're 19, 20, 21. And oftentimes that can lead to drug addiction, mental illness, because I don't think people are meant to experience that. And it's not something biologically we're meant to be able to handle. I'm just curious because there's a little bit of false modesty about brat. it wasn't just successful. Very few times can you say that an album is a cultural phenomenon.

This really was. It was artistically a smash. But it took on a whole life. The color and font of the album became a thing. That's when you know you've done something interesting. You know, when, you know, you're whatever, you're passing by a coffee shop and the color and the font is telling you buy a moccuccino. And you're like, okay, this doesn't even anything to do with brat. They're trying to use brat to sell a Mokachino.

This is weird. Was there a moment when you've had success before, you'd been playing before people for a long time? Was there a moment that crystallized for you where you thought, oh, my God, this is weird. This is big. Or was it all kind of fluid in a way? You're in a flow state.

I kind of flow state. And also I'm very bad at doing the thing where you look back and acknowledge success. Like I'm kind of like, next thing, let's go. Like, I don't know. Like, I can sit here and, you know, talk to you guys and say, like, actually, yeah, I was really cool. Like, but in the moment, I wasn't really thinking like that.

And I think I find the whole sort of like social experiment of the whole thing really fascinating. And I think the way that people interact with pop culture has always been like a huge, inspiration to my work. And so for me, this was sort of like, oh my God, this was like the cherry on the cake of everything I had ever hoped for because it was so interesting to see how people, fans, haters, brands, presidential campaigns were interacting with, you know, what I was doing. And I found it very, very, yeah, fascinating. the way that, yeah, like trend cycles happen.

And, yeah, it's like, that's always been such interesting fuel for me and for my work. Like, I'm fascinated with how people engage with stuff like that. Well, this has all served you really well because the moment is your movie. And it is a mockumentary, which I don't think quite describes it because it's a, yes, it's a pretend documentary. It can be very funny at times. But the thing, and Sonya, you saw it as well, the thing that struck me as I watched it

and I thought, this is true. This is very, very true. I'm speaking as someone who has nothing, no connection to that world and that experience, but you can tell when something is authentic. And this is a very smart, honest, funny, wry look at what you went through. And no, it is not factual, but it's true.

And I was really blown away by, I mean, just when you watch the movie, you get a really good sense of what it's like to be you. And I know it's a version of you, but it felt to me like a very honest, cool, innovative document. And I loved it. I really did. And I don't know what your experience was, Sona. You know what?

It reminded me of something you said, which is a lot of times people try to justify their paychecks. And it seemed like there was a lot of characters in here who were trying to justify their paychecks in a way. And it shows you what it really is for people who are such a big part of the zeit guys who have so many voices that are just coming at them. And I don't, I mean, it was so, it was really funny. Alexander Scars Guard.

Oh, my God. It's hilarious. amazing in it. He's so incredible in this movie. But everybody is so funny. It's also very real. And it's such a great glimpse into what it's like to go through what you went through. We're big Rachel Senate fans.

And she was sitting in that chair weeks ago. And we were talking about her new show. And I just adore her. I love that she's playing this version of herself, which isn't all that flattering. And it's really funny. The Kylie Jenner. Oh, my God. Like.

Yes. She kills. But also, I love that she comes in and encounters you at a weak moment and gives you this advice, which is like comically, she's telling you, you got to go for it. You got to do this. But in a way, you're thinking, no, don't listen to Kylie. Yeah. And she looks ethereal. Yeah.

Her lighting is insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you know, there were so many moments that are.

And, yeah, Alexander Scarsgarde's come. in and he's this very awkward, weird energy. But to your point, Sona, it's a really good point. The thing I like the most about the movie is something that happens all the time in any kind of entertainment endeavor, which is you are you, you are a real person living in the world, you have these experiences, you are following your own North Star creatively, making your stuff. Then you hit this motherload of insane success. And you're right, credit card company. You know, Frappuccino companies, you know, sneaker companies, banks, presidential candidates, everybody moves in and then you have a team. And as we talked about earlier, a lot of your work is flow state work.

But now people are saying, now hold on a second. It's not good for Arby's restaurant. If you, you know, say, fuck in the song, could you instead say, I enjoy Arby's? And you're saying, what? Yeah. Why would Charlie X, X, X, X, X, be saying I like Arby's? It would really help. And that is depicted so well in this movie.

And it is funny, but it's also, it's not just a funny movie. It also felt like very much a snapshot of where we are right now. And I think people are always trying to depict a lot of movies about famous people and people going through fame. I thought this was the truest depiction I've seen in memory of what it's really like. Right, because, yeah, it's like, thank you for saying all of that, by the way. It's so kind of you. And you really got the film, which is great, great news, great news.

You thought I was an idiot. And the car ride on the way over in your white ford, who is this idiot? It's why I said nervous. Yeah, yeah. And then they showed you a picture of my hair and you went, what is that? Yeah. No, I mean, you know, you never know.

You're so locked into the edit and you're like, are we insane? It feels clear to us. And then you're like, you know, whatever. Anyways. No, I, you're smart. You're really so smart. So that's big.

You know what I always say? Charlie, when someone likes my work, I say, you're smart. I know, I know, yeah, yeah. And when someone has any, any problem with it, I say, you're an idiot! That's how I'm going to do press for this film. Who here's an idiot?

You can show yourself out. It's going to be really good. You know what's really nice, too, is you have proven yourself a million times over with your abilities in music and as a performer. You're very funny. Oh, thanks, gosh. Wow, no, no, but you really are. You're very funny and the way you play things because a lot of people think

being funny is about saying a line in a funny way. And yeah, okay, that's true. But there's so much of it, which is almost harder to do, which is reactions. And so much of the movie is watching your face watching what's happening to you. And you are the avatar for the audience. So we're watching it thinking, Jesus, Scarscar,'s a weird guy. And other people are listening to him saying, well, he's a big deal and he's got a neck scarf and yes yeah but you're you're taking it in and you can your face is is you you play the comedic moments really well thank you it was very funny thank you and then i i i someone turned me on to your movie reviews that you do and i was reading your movie reviews uh which you do on uh what is it uh letter box yeah letterbox okay i'm cool letterbox what is it now he said putting on his glasses

This letterbox, young lady, go to your room. You're like a complete unknown. You said, there are a lot of songs in this. Moneyball, this isn't for British people. I love this one. I did a thing once parodying. We did a film parodying Mad Max Fury Road, and I was, his name's the Doof Warrior.

He's the guy that hangs off the front of the truck in Madenxtury Road. Playing the guitar that shoots flame. Your review for that fantastic movie, is the guitarist dead? Hope so. And I was just like, oh, okay, you're also a comedy writer, which isn't fair because I've worked about my whole life. And then you step out of a rave and do it and do it really well. But I would think your sense, if she's... humor would, it's so important to your, to everything. It's so important to music and to just

staying sane. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, yeah, I think it's like I have to take everything with a pinch of salt, but then at the same time, I'm also like an emotional wreck, and it's kind of like balancing the two things. And I think it's like, I try and approach like everything I do with, with kind of acknowledgement of both sides of my personality, whether that be, you know, making music or doing press or, you know, even the film itself. And I think that's an important part about the film, you know, it's like, and to go back to your point about it being what you feel is an accurate depiction of fame or success or whatever the phrasing was that you use, it's like it's so ridiculous, really, isn't it?

like the world that we live in or encounter, it's, it's like amazing and exciting, but it's also like pointless and ridiculous and then also so rewarding sometimes. And sometimes I am the complete total villain, you know? And I think, and I don't just mean like in the film.

I mean like actually like in my life, in my world. Like I can be a fucking nightmare sometimes. You know what I mean? What's here about that? Yeah. But it's, yeah, it's like, and I think for me it was really important that, like, I wasn't sort of taking, I wasn't like landing in this kind of like, you know, like morally, like perfect place at the end of the film.

Because that has not been my experience with working in the music industry. It hasn't been my experience with fame. It's like, it's complex. Like you don't always like land in this place where you're like, and now I've like tied up all the loose ends. I was a great person. Everybody loves me, and that's the end of the book. Like, no, it's like, you hurt people, you burn people. You, you, like, are really rude to your sweet manager on text one day,

and they're having probably the worst day ever, but they're professional, so they don't, like, say anything back, you know, and you cancel a show, like, whatever it is. I don't know, but it's like, it's all so heightened and crazy. And I hope that we show that in the film. And I hope that whilst I acknowledge I can be like that sometimes, I also hope that I try and be like a nice person. Yeah.

You know, I hope that I wouldn't be the real person to ask about that. Well, you know. No, we've talked to your people and you're a monster. That's just the way it is. And I'm talking about the people right outside, so you can let them go. Okay, good. Fired. But, yeah, they have to go.

I won't tolerate that on your behalf. No, what I love is that you, in your work, you've made it kind of a mission to tell girls, and you're very, you have a massive influence with young women to say, I'm scruffy, I say dumb shit, sometimes I fall down, because what's modeled for them often is perfection, is fairy tale,

is perfect lighting, is things that they can't possibly compete with. No one can compete with. And you have gone out of your way to, I think, be true to the you that's in a rave at 4 o'clock in the morning. And it's, do you know what I mean? It's sweaty and it's chaotic.

And you improvised some stuff. And this went well, but I just knocked that light over and smashed it. And someone's going to have to pay for that, but it's not me. I mean, I think you've been very good about, which I admire, and you're not doing it to be a good person. You're doing it because that's the way you see the world. Absolutely.

You're not saying, oh, I'm going to do this good person thing. You're doing it because that's how you see things and that's how you see yourself and you want these young women to see you that way so they can see themselves that way. Yeah, totally. I mean, and look, it's like I would hope that, as I said, I am a good person to the, those who meet me in, you know, in real life. But I didn't make, I didn't decide I wanted to make art to be a role model or, you know, that's not where it comes. It can never come from that. I'm, I should not be put in that category at all. Like, I don't want that responsibility. I don't think it is an artist's responsibility to be a role model. Like, I think opinions on that have

have kind of changed as like the relationship between fan and artist gets sort of closer and closer and closer, but I don't really subscribe to that belief personally. And yeah, I think it's like if I can show people that fucking up sometimes is actually fine because we're all human and we all probably do it even if we claim to not on the internet where we're being like our best, most curated versions of ourselves. Like I think that's good because I would have loved to have seen that when I was younger. Yeah. You know, but I also, I'm probably going to, like, mess up at that some point,

at some point, too. You know, it's like, that's just how it goes. You know, I don't want to give anything away, but the end of your movie, not to be careful here, because I don't want to give it away, but it's the end of your movie is you having to make a choice, a big choice about how you're going to present yourself on stage. And I'm not going to say what happens, but people are pressuring you to put on these, the kind of outfits were used to seeing when someone does a world tour or a massive, you know, arena show, something. And you're putting on these dresses and things that really aren't you,

but people are saying, no, you got to wear this because this is the next step. And I was thinking, was there any point where you were looking at any of those dresses thinking, this is actually, I really like this. I think maybe you were. Well, okay. There's a green one you wear that I must have. Oh, gosh. Because I've got a killer ass. Oh, God. Well, come on, Sona. You've seen it.

I haven't. I can't find it. I show you. I can't find it. I have no ass famously. My ass was lost in a terrible accident years ago. You know, I got to say no. There wasn't.

But there was actually like the opposite experience where I'm not sure if I'm, this is something I can say or not. Right. We can always take it out if you can't say. We'll find out. But there is this moment actually where I'm sort of on the way to making the decision at the end of the film where I'm kind of trying to decide like which, what show am I doing. And I'm in a rehearsal for this more traditional kind of show. And on the day that we shot it, I'm wearing this outfit that is not something like I've ever worn before.

It is green. Oh, I know the outfit very well. You know, like green hair, green eye shadow. And I'm up on wires. And when we were shooting it, you know, I was up on wires up and down for like most part of two days. But before I went up, my creative director in real life came over to me and she was like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I think so. And she was like, you know you look really, really.

really lame right now. And then, and I was like, really? I was like, really? And she was like, yeah. And then I cried. And then she cried. And she was like, you've never looked so uncool. And I was like, oh my God.

And then the director came over was like, you ready to shoot? I was like, I fucking hate you. That's great. And he was like, but this is the point, you know? You know what's really funny? And I honestly don't think we're giving anything away because if I heard this, I'd be like,

I have to see this movie. And it doesn't give anything away because we won't tell you what happens. But it's a moment in the movie where you're getting some pressure to do the more traditional thing. And we always see pop artists up on, you know, wires. It's just there's been more time up in the air

than on the ground. And, but what really made me, there's a visual that people have to see, which is they hoist you up and you're in the mid-air and you've got your outfit on and your boots and you're holding the microphone, and you're just singing but not doing any. So they just took,

you're doing the exact same thing you would be doing. You know, you're not moving. It's not Cirque de Soleil. It's if they took a tax lawyer and hoisted them in the air and told them, now do your work. And you were just there saying, well, if I were, and that really made me laugh.

There's so much stuff like that in the film. You know what I will say from shooting that scene. I got to say I have so much respect for artists who do go up on wires because it is like really hard. It's really hard to look good and poised and effortless. Like it's so hard.

Like I really was like at points and it's all got cut from the film. I was like really trying to look good and I kind of look like sugar plum fairy. It's like really, really hard to look like serene and gorgeous. It's so impossible. So respect to pink and whoever else who's doing all the flips. That was very hardcore.

No, no, it's amazing that people can do it and sing and move. Yeah, impossible. We should do the podcast sometime when it's the three of us up on wire. And then you can be our guest and we'll hoist you up. And then we'll tell you you look lame. You can wear that green dress. You'll tell us to fuck off. Yeah, yeah.

It'll be a nice show. Charlie, I am delighted, absolutely delighted to meet you. And just it's so funny because. Because the thing that keeps inspiring me is people that are much younger than me, who are oftentimes in an art form that has, that maybe I don't understand that they're doing something completely different. But I see the same things over and over again, which is really hardworking, true to themselves, disciplined, honest, and brave. And I think, and I look at all those qualities. And time and time again in history, those people do really great things. And I get inspired. And, you know, so I'm this. Gieser who's like, that's cool. I'm really glad you're out there. I'm really glad that you're doing your work and doing it so beautifully. Love the film. And please come back some time because it's been an absolute joy talking to you. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time. Oh, good. Thank you. All right. And we'll talk about this tax thing. Yes, perfect.

I think you're wasting your time in music. No, come on. She's good with numbers. I know she is. Okay, it's time for review the reviewers. This is where I go to Apple Podcasts. I pull out one of the just flowing sea of five-star reviews. Beautiful, beautiful. And we reviewed it. And then we review the review. And I'd like to review you right now.

You said Reveet. The audience won't know what I'm talking about it. I will have cut that out. I don't think so. I think you're going to keep it in. I'll cut that up, but I'm going to keep this part in. Better comedy. I would keep it in.

It's good. I'm going to cut all this out. Okay. All right. This is from Calabria 86. sibling rivalry, five stars. Love, love, love, love the podcast. Conan, you, Sona and Matt have an infectious sibling rivalry.

What do you think day-to-day life would have been like if you three were actually siblings and grew up together in the same house? Oh, wow. Well, I don't think we even have to suppose what this would be because we know. We know. I mean, pick any period of history, pick any situation anywhere in the world. The three of us living in a house day-to-day as siblings would be exactly. Exactly what you think it is.

Even as kids, would it be any worse or better? I think it would be... Let's adjust the ages, so you're like two years older than me and I'm two years older than Sona. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so there's just a two-year gap between each of us. Am I the oldest?

Yeah. Yeah, still the oldest. Okay, so, well, I mean, my brother Justin could speak to this very well. I would be 24-7 bits. I would recruit him in bits. So I'd be recruiting both of you. you into my bits and making you participate against your will. It would be tough life to be born.

It would be tough. Are we ourselves in this scenario that I would pummel the two of you on a daily basis? What did I do to you? Just because it's like you're an easy target. Yes. And you know, you're just going to be like, I'm, you know, painting my figurines or whatever you're doing. Yeah, yeah. He has his figurines.

Yeah, he has, you know, famous architects of the early 20th centuries, you know, and he's doing his little paintings of the figurines. Yeah, he would. So, yeah, I'm just, you know, I'm going to, like, kick him and I'm going to beat you up. Because I think that happened to me a lot, and it made me a much tougher person. Like, my brother was bigger. Yeah. And he, you know, he beat me up a lot.

And so I would. Did you beat him up? I tried. I fought back. I think if I had weaker people around me, I would beat them up. So I think I would just pummel with two of you. Danny was just stronger than you. And I think he was a real nerd.

He carried a briefcase around as a kid. I did not. And I know that's you. I mean, we just got to get the word out on that. I literally know that's you. No, no, no. I know this for a fact that she should. I did not carry a briefcase.

You told me you had a briefcase when you were in college. You did have a briefcase. You said you did. You've told her on this podcast. I know, but I was probably bullshing. I did not have a briefcase. My brother really wanted to work in finance for a really long time. No, he had a briefcase.

Her brother had, Danny had a briefcase. You have said, right, he said on this podcast that he had a briefcase. I don't know. I don't know that I did have a briefcase. I forget every podcast. No. We record. We have to, because I don't think that's true.

I would, and I would be the first to admit I had a briefcase. No. No, I think, you know what I had? Is it that you really wanted a briefcase? You've talked about a briefcase. No, no. What I said is that I liked, I really loved office supplies. I love the ideas of having, like, a stamp.

I love the ideas of having one of those pressy things that makes like a little medallion on the paper. An embosser. An embosser. That's cool. I liked, no, no, I'm saying I, I know this is terrible, but I really wanted an intercom where I could go like, Hello, Louise, you know, put those, get those memos out. I love that. My dream when I was a little kid was to be a mid-level Soviet bureaucrat.

So your brother had a briefcase. You showed me a picture once when you're all little kids, and he's standing there. I think he's wearing one of your dad's suits. It's too big, and he's holding a briefcase. Yeah, he does. He used to hold a briefcase. But then he got older, and then he became a jock, and he was a football player, and he was, like, huge.

She'd have to work out all the time. And so, you know, he would, like, we would fight over the remote or whatever and things like that. So I got really tough because of him. Yeah. And I feel like with you two as my siblings, you know, I'd just beat you up all the time. But let's keep in mind, in this scenario, I'm two years older than you. I'm your older brother. You're four years older than me.

And I would still beat you up. You still beat me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, you know what? That scans. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think he would beat me up.

So I'm taking abuse from both sides. Yes. You are. You are. Oh, first of all, I don't, I think you die after a year. I'm being honest. I think. I think I open my veins in a warm bathtub.

I don't want to be in living this life. No, no. You open your veins in a bathtub, but we find you, bind you, and then beat you. Because I'm incapacitated. Yeah. That's too good a way for you to go. But no, people are looking for you and then you're found in a bog. What's left of you?

They find your glasses floating on top of the water. You'd be dead. Yeah. We'd kill you so. No, you'd be gone. Yeah. And then Sona and I, I think you would quickly realize this guy's going on to things. He's going to monetize these bits.

And so you wouldn't want me dead because you'd know you can sponge off me the rest of your life, as you do now. I wouldn't want either of you dead. You're my siblings, right? Yeah, you sure love us. Yeah, sure. But I'll, I'll fight you. That's how people show affection. You know what?

Even if we don't kill, Gourley, he dies of like the milk sickness. I know. He's very weak. I'm sorry. You are. Yeah, you'd get the rheumatism, you know. Oh, and you'd have braces. You'd have braces on your chest and your legs.

I did have braces on my legs. I know, I shouldn't laugh. But you know those braces you had? Make them out of a cruder material, and that's what you would have in this scenario. Wicker. Yeah. Okay. But, and then I do say after you're gone, we do feel badly, and we go visit your grave for a little while.

Just a little bit. But then we move on because I'm a big deal. I've faked my death just to get away from you guys. And I'm living happily, happily, anywhere. Anywhere but here. It's right now in this time that I'm not even joking we're out of this role playing center.

It's like it's like Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, you're up in a tree, you fake your death, you're up in a tree listening to your own eulogy, but then you fall out of the tree and you're killed.

I fall right into the grave. We roll you right into the grave we've already done. Yeah, we're like, yeah, that works. I think what happens is I'm a ghost, I've got a CIA thing. I had to fake my death. I got multiple passports.

I'm doing my own thing. I think we all know I think you die, you become a ghost, but then you're sickly as a ghost, which has never happened before. Other ghosts are like, that's not supposed to happen. And then you die as a ghost and become a second level of ghosts. And become a more translucent ghost. And then you're still sick.

And you can't, because the pathogen keeps getting spread. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then you're just a ghost that's wheezing and coughing and blowing your nose, as you are now, all of the time. Oh, my God. And other ghosts are bullying you. be fun. Do you think our parents would like constantly, like at dinners and stuff, they'd just, would our parents leave us? For good, yes. Right. That's what I mean. I think the parents would move out.

Yeah. But then they'd again, they'd have that hint that that Conan guy seems like he's monetizing this bit thing. We better just keep in touch just to get some of that sweet scratch. But when you were a kid, no one was like, he's going to monetize this. They were like, Luke knew. Luke knew. Did he? Oh, that's cool. No, he didn't know. He had an assyed-old. Have a kiss. And he was figuring out. I think that what you do now while you can monetize it now, back when you're a kid, it's like concerning. Yeah.

Right? Oh, no. Yeah. They're going to monetize this and they're thinking, we need to institutionalize. Yes. That's what I mean. But some of our best artists have been institutionalized, you know? Okay.

I just made that up. I don't think that's true. I know. I don't know what that is either. Okay. Well, I think we answered that question. Yeah. And that was review the reviewers.

Conan O'Brien needs a friend With Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Goorley. Produced by me, Matt Goreley. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leow. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair,

and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnik. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brick Con. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message.

It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com slash Conan. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien, needs a friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.