Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - James L. Brooks

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Director and screenwriter James L. Brooks feels quizzical about being Conan O’Brien’s friend. James sits down with Conan to discuss his journey from CBS usher to writing for the best of 70s and 80s television, creating The Mary Tyler Moore Show at exactly the right time, and returning to directing for the screen with his latest film Ella McCay. Plus, Aaron Bleyaert makes a return to expose a hygiene scandal in the studio. For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone]. Get access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/conan. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hi, my name is James L. Brooks. And I feel quizzical about being Conan. Oh, my, that's friend. You and your $9 words. Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking blues, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends. Because I can tell We are going to be friends

Hey there and welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a friend I came in a little hot Yeah, right out of the gate I know It was like an auctioneer Oh, I've been watching

a lot of auction videos online Is that a thing? Sotheby's has an account And you can watch them And they're all these really Like professional people And a lot of them are on the phone And they just raise a finger

And he's like, okay And we have three months million there to do I have three three one three one and then they just and I want to be one of those people who was on the phone raising my hand I'm here's my terror as you know I have a lot of ticks and bodily movements um and I think you meant like the insect as you know I'm covered in ticks I just took off my shirt and it was solid tick God, and liches. Just a solid, like, black t-shirt of undulating ticks all going,

sucking away. And I'm like, yeah, I've got some ticks. No, I've always, I've thought about that. I've never gone to a real auction. And the idea that I'd be in an auction where it's like $9.1 million, going once, going twice. I know that it would, you know what I mean? They'd be like, and, uh, Colonel O'Brien over there with 9.2. It's on you now.

buddy. I grew up, my neighbor was an auctioneer, but for like cattle and stuff like that. And he had this really crazy way of doing it where he'd go, hey, I don't know how to get you five, five, and he would walk up and down the street. Was he tiny? He was tiny. Hey, he sounds tiny.

Oh, got him carried away by a bird. He would, I was just a kid and he offered me Papsed Blue Ribbons and things like that. And we wanted to do like, Bocchi. He always wanted to play Bocci. He wasn't widier? Is there a lot of cattle? No, there's none.

Where's it going? He's from Missouri. So that's what you're watching is auctioneer videos. I didn't know that was the thing. I am addicted to, I mean, I watched a lot of guitar lick little Instagram videos and stuff. But one thing I've noticed that I'm totally transfixed by little carpentry hacks. I can't make anything out of wood. But they'll show you how they join two pieces of wood by making these little cuts.

or they'll show you, oh, if there's a crack in your furniture. And of course, they always have equipment that I would never have, that I don't think anybody would have except a professional woodworker. But they'll say, oh, no, if you put this screw halfway in, but then you cover it in glue, but then you make this little divot, and you put it in here, it's recessed, and then you clamp this together, and then you sand it. And I'm like, oh, my God, I just orgasms watching that.

It's fantastic. And then I watch the videos where they explain how an orgasm works. And I could watch those forever. And those are hacks as well. Those are hacks as well. And you cut them here and you cut there. And then you put a little glue and... Oh.

That's my auctioneer voice. Oh, God. I'm also imagining... This is my YouTube video, is I watch Conan having an orgasm covered in ticks. Yeah. I'm covered in ticks. I'm watching...

Watch... orgasming while watching a carpentry hat. One view. And the ticks are all watching, too. One view and it's me. One view. Yeah. That was, wow, I don't know how that all came together, but it did.

What do you watch? What's your guilty pleasure? Gosh, I'll watch a lot of like 10 things you didn't know about Godfather 3 or something. Or like restoration of old toys, where they sandblasted. and, like, repaint it and things like that. It's kind of like an ASMR. I'd like to come back as someone who knows how to make things. Yeah.

You know, it's so endlessly fascinating. And I don't know what it is, but it's so satisfying to see people. Yeah. You know, especially when they, if they do something like liquefy aluminum and pour it into a mold and then make something where they polish it, I will cancel everything. No, no, no. They found your replacement liver. It's, they can insert, they can, they can surgically put it in right now before it dies. I need to finish watching this.

You know, I know, I'll take my chances on another emergency liver. That you might like? What, Marble Olympics? I don't know what that is. It's like someone makes these huge race tracks and they race marbles against marbles. Yeah. And they all have like names and there's all kinds of different races and marbles in the bleachers watching. It's amazing.

This is sports for nerds. I know, but isn't it possible that we've reached... Oh, it's okay. This is the extinction level we've reached is that, you know, we gamed over time. We figured out how to gain humans. If you do this and you do that, a human will want to buy that product. So it's all been figured out by algorithms and, you know... And now we're at a point where we know what...

We have to figure out... They figured out what humans love to... watch and we're all watching it. And I was in an airport like three days ago. Everyone I passed was on their phone, all watching the thing that's been wired directly to their brain to please them. And we might stop feeding ourselves. I know. It's really getting. It's really bad. Although I heard, I don't know if this is true, but a lot of kids are into dumb phones, which are basically like very basic. I got one for the Oscars last year. I turned my phone, my app off completely. Is that work? I'm interested in that. I love it. I love it. It's a thing called a break.

and it's a solid, like it's a physical object that you have to have with you. So you can leave it at home. And if you brick your phone, you can set what apps you can use. And so I can go out and just have nothing but maps and Spotify or something like that, you know. And I can't be.

Is this an ad for this device? Are you secretly getting money? I'm not getting any money. Is it a phone like that now? No, not like that now because I need it. And you just touch it to the brick and it bricks your phone. And you just tap it on there. And you preset what apps it will let you use.

And if you leave that thing at home, you can't, I've talked to you about this Adam. Sometimes I'll text Adam going, if there's an emergency at work, text Amanda because my phone's bricked. And I don't want to be on social media or anything like that. I need to do that. It's great. Yeah.

It's just called brick. I got a real dumb phone when things were really heating up with the Oscars. And it's people think they're getting a call from a drug dealer. Yeah. You know, it's just hilarious. So they're disappointed when it's you. But then I try to make up for it by actually selling them. drugs.

Drugs I have no way of knowing how to get. I'm like I've got some really good bar heroin that can be your, you know, and then I have to go out and find it. And how much, you don't know how much you're going to charge for that much. No. Imagine him dealing drugs. You would be a terrible drug dealer. Why?

Because, A, you don't do drugs. Right. Okay. All right. So what? That's like a big reason. A lot of people don't use the product. A lot of people don't use the product they sell.

You don't know how much a little baggy of Coke would normally cause. I'll play this, okay. It's a dark alley. There's one broken street light. Sure. Sona and I, we're looking for a fix. Yeah, I need it.

It's 1944 in your scenario. I'm looking for a fix. Yeah. You need a fix? Yeah, I'm your drug dealer. What's going on? You can't say. You already can't say.

What if I'm a cop? All right. Hey, how about this? You have to have an alias. Yeah. You got to be like a little more covert about it. My name's Jasbo. What's wrong with Jasbo?

What's wrong with Jasbo? Relax. I'm sorry. I got this. I just don't want the cops to get up. Okay, hey, Jazzbo. What did you hear about me? We're looking for some stripes.

What did you hear about me? I heard about you back in the wars. Okay. What you want? Some stripes. Stripes? Yeah. I got stripes.

I got black bennies, jojos, flip flops, pink ladies. All right. Squantos, half prontos. How much? What do you got? A dollar. Done. See, I told you.

Do you have anything stronger? Do you have any blow? You want to blow? Yeah. I'll blow you. How much? I'll pay you whatever you want. Okay, that's what I'm talking about.

I just got to blow you right now. All I've got is $2,000. I sold a bunch of stripes earlier today. Here you go. Now let's get to me blowing you. I'm Jasbo. The blower. You know how they say.

I'm a top blower in this town. Jazzbo's the name. Blowing's my game. I'll give you whatever you want. This is just a deposit. You know how they say if you're a cop, you have to tell me? Yeah. Take off your shirt.

I got to know if you're covered in ticks. I don't remember if this is even the same record. I didn't either, but I think it was a long time ago. It's time to wrap. Is this the same one? Okay. Anyway. I have no idea, was it?

It is, right? Auction videos. Yes. Is it the same one? I don't know. It started with auction videos. I don't know. I took notes.

All I know is that I'm paying you top dollar to blow you in this scenario and my name's Jazzbo. I got drugs for a dollar and I'm being paid to be filleted by a jazzbo. By a jazzbo covered in ticks. I also love the first time you're like, hey, I'm your drug dealer. I'm your drug dealer. Drug dealer here. Jazzbo's the name.

Drug dealing's the game. Here you. And he comes around. Anyone watch illegal drugs? Jasbo's the name. Drug dealing's the game. And I'll blow. Oh, you?

Well, I have to say, this is going to be an excellent show. All right, you knuckleheads, pipe down. My guest today is an Academy Award-winning director and screenwriter behind such films and TV shows as terms of endearment, the Mary Tyler Moore show, and broadcast news. His latest movie, Ella McKay, is in theaters now. I'm thrilled he's here today. James L. Brooks. Welcome.

You're not going to remember this, but I'm going to remember this, but I'm going to thank you up front because you did me a huge... When you were selling those flowers. I was selling flowers. I was blind. You bought one and then paid for my operation. Oh, wait, that's a Charlie Chaplin movie. Now, you did a great thing for me, and you won't remember this.

In addition to other many great things that you've done for me, when I was a writer on The Simpsons and out of nowhere they announced, this complete unknown was going to be taking over for David Letterman. His name is Conan O'Brien. No one knew how to react. This is insane. And somehow they were just looking for any quote. And they got to you somehow.

And they said, well, Simpsons, James L. Brooks, what do you think of this? And you said, the moment I met Conan O'Brien, I knew that he would one day replace David Letterman as the host of late night. Now, that's a really funny joke. But thank God, the media had no sense of irony. So I read so many articles that were like, of course, James O. Brooks came to his defense and said, from the moment I met him, he was the only one. And I think I survived off that quote for a couple of months. I think what I actually said was he can't. We have him under contract. You know, someone did, actually. It wasn't you. No, there was actually, I remember somebody coming to me, because you were under contract.

I was under contract at the Simpsons when this insane thing happened and out of the blue. I mean, I got the word that, yeah, kid, you're it. When I was at a rewrite session in the basement of the record room at Warner Brothers, a phone call came through. Someone said, it's for you, Conan. I took the phone and it was my agent, Gavin Pallone, and he said, you got 1230. And I said in a deflated tone because I knew what I was in for. I said, I knew it. And because I was scared.

And then the drama unfolded, which was, I was under contract at the Simpsons for another couple of years. And I remembered someone at Fox said, now hold on a second. You know, he's got to buy his way out of his contract. I was driving a Ford Taurus at the time, which I still own proudly. Oh, man. Yeah. And they said, you got to buy your way out.

And it wasn't you, it wasn't Richard Sakai. It was some guy at Fox was like, hey, wait a minute. But did they come to you ever and say, what do you think of this? No, I remember hearing that somebody told me, you know, because, you know, you were, you were quickly a star, the staff. I mean, you, I mean, that was, no, but it was insane how quickly that happened. And, and then somebody said, he's wanted exactly this since he was 14. Yeah. But I remember, I left SNL and I'm in New York.

and I get a call from Mike Reese and Al Jean, and they say, we hear you're available. Would you want to join us at The Simpsons? And this is in 1991, I think. They said, Jim Brooks is coming in to hear all the pitches for the new season. And I started pitching you ideas and you were laughing. You have that amazing, iconic laugh. And I was overjoyed. And then I had, you said yes to two of them. And then Al Jean said, tell him about the monorail. Oh, wow. And I see. it then. Wow. And I said, this is my first time in the room. And that's one of the classic Simpson shows. Well, I had just had two ideas accepted. And my, there's a big part of my, I don't know, Catholic, Irish Catholic, don't push it. Just you got to. This is going to anger him

because it's weird. And I pitched you Montereil and you laughed really hard. And that was my, one of my great days in show business to this day was pitching to you and having you be happy. Oh, man. And hearing that famous laugh. And that. a laugh that, unbeknownst to me I had heard on television growing up, that famous laugh of you that you can, do you hear it yourself when you watch Mary Tyler Moore Show or Taxi? Do you hear yourself? I do. I do. I do. There's a, there's a, there's a sort of an echo quality that's attached to it recently, but no, yeah, I do. I mean, it's and terrible. You know, I've had people turn around during watching a comedy movie, and my laugh bothered them so much they turned around giving me dirty looks.

We're laughing at a comedy. Yeah, it is, we remember De Niro, that famous scene in the movie theater? Cape Fear. Grace being incredibly obnoxious and laughing. I mean, you have had an insane career. You've been so spectacularly successful. And I thought I'd start at the beginning, which is you've done all these iconic shows, revolutionary shows, movies.

And you start out working on shows like My Three Sons or Andy Griffith show. And I was wondering. My mother the car. My mother the car. My mother the car. A famous bond. If you recall, it's about a man whose mother dies and comes back as a talking car. Yeah.

Yeah. It wasn't my idea. I wish it was. Was Jerry Van Dyke? Who was the star? I think the star. I think it was Jerry Van Dyke maybe, was the star of it. And it's a famous bomb.

I don't know if they ever told you, but it's a famous bomb. I never knew it was famous as being, I never knew that. When I was growing up. I think of it as a sort of moderate. No, no, I'm here to tell you. It was a famous bomb. It was a famous. Yeah, there you go.

Iconic bomb. Everything you do is iconic. But this was, and I was looking at these early shows and thinking, okay, you go on to do, of course, Mirichella Moore and taxi and on road-up. you are, I think, the best of, the very best of 1970s and 80s television, Simpsons. And then you do Terms of Endearment, which to this day is a movie, my wife and I watch hundreds of times and beg anyone to watch with us again because it's so amazing and broadcast news. And it's just, it's ridiculous. Your resume is madness and feels like a fraud. Like you've made this up. This is the invention of AI. what were you learning on the Andy Griffith show? What were you learning on those early shows? What did they teach you?

Then I might survive is the big lesson I think I got out of it because I came out of here to, I came out to California from a job I really liked as a news writer in New York for one of the networks. Things had been, you know, I had messing up pretty continually and then think I got this job without being a college graduate that you're supposed to be a college graduate, which was an usher at CBS.

You were supposed to be a college graduate for that job because it was a... Like an internship. A step on the ladder, yeah. Yeah, and because my sister knew the person who assisted the person who hired the ushers, I got the job. And it's so nuts when you look back,

because nothing would have happened unless that happened. Yeah. The way it worked out, because then... I mean, it's always nuts to think how, luck plays a part. And then the usher staff filled in for sort of minor jobs. When the person who had the better job, the minor job, though, in the scheme of things, went on vacation. And I filled in for somebody who was a copyboy desk assistant at CBS News.

And he didn't come back from vacation. And it was just, that was the break. Was he lost at sea? It sounds so ominous. Well, he died. What did you do to him? It's clear what you did. That's where your deal with the devil starts.

This unprecedented career. So you start that kind of writing, and then at some point you have to say, all right, television writing is a possibility. I never saw it. I never saw it as a possibility. I never saw it as a possibility. Somebody I worked with when I had a job at a radio station,

ended up in an independent documentary house here. And he offered me a job. And I took it, which was leaving the first secure thing I had in my life, which was the job at CBS in the news division. And then I came out and I was laid off six months after I got here. It's not like I always wanted to write. I always wrote with no notion that I could do it as a profession. Honestly, never occurred to me.

I mean, my ambition was primarily to survive. I mean, that was it. And we were a grubby lot, as documentary makers, and I went to a party on New Year's Eve, and we were there being grubby, and a tall, handsome man walks in in a tuxedo, and it's Alan Byrne. And he had five shows that he created comedy shows

on the air at that time. And he said, asked me, he said, what do you do? And I said, well, I want to write. And he got me a job. Ah, that's what he knew. He didn't read anything or anything else. He was just that sweet a guy. Yeah. And so we, yeah. So he got me an assignment and then, you know, things started to work. You know, it's interesting, some of these shows, these early shows like Andy Griffith's show, the best episodes are still magical to me. And it's because it's character comedy. And I'm thinking at some point you must have learned. It's not rapid fire jokes.

one of the hallmarks of your career has been writing that way within characters. I guess. Wait a minute, I'm basing this off of... Hey, you'll live and learn. You know what I'm saying. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Somebody write down what that guy said.

Wait a minute. I just came to Yoda and said, Yoda, I heard there is no try-thers just do. What mean you? Who say? Who you talk to? Whatever, I guess. That's what it feels like right now. Okay, forget that.

I'm going back to Just Jokes. You know, it's funny because huge turning point in your life, Mary Tyler Moore show, a show that you create and you did the pitch... With Alan Burns. With Alan Burns. But who'd you pitch it to? And was Mary Tyler Moore in the room when you pitched it?

I had done a show, Room 222, which was... Love that show. And Alan and I met on that show. And Grant Tinker, who was the vice president at Fox and was married to marry Tyler Moore, and was, every time you mention his name was the best boss that ever happened. He saved our rear ends. I mean, he was amazing in his support of writers. Just crazy, great.

We all, I mean, we all loved him. He was a magic man. We pitched to CBS for the Maritime Warwickshire. We pitched a bad idea. I mean, our first idea was a bad idea. My father, the car. So you pitch a bad idea. And it was an amazing pitch session because there were like a semi-circle,

like you'd do it for like a bad science fiction movie, a semi-circle of chairs with all these people in it. And the head of programming, this is a true story, the head of programming in the middle of it. And we, our first idea was that she'd be divorced and coming off a divorce. And the guy actually said, there are three things people don't like. Stories about divorce.

I swear to God he said this, Because we had a rhoda character in it, you know, Rota Morgan Stern. Stories about divorce, Jews, and mustaches. I'm not making, you couldn't make this up, right? He's looking at me, a Jew with a mustache. As he says it, that really happened in time and space. That actually happened. Yes.

The guy was looking at my face saying that. So Grant went in and we never knew it. He just said, wait for me. He came out. a little angry, and he had just, you know, used the weight that he had to save our asses. Unbelievable. So you do this show, and it's interesting, in retrospect, people say Mary Tyler Moore Show was revolutionary. She's single. It's a show based about this woman. She has a career. She doesn't have a... She has no steering wheel. She has a wisecracking. There's no wisecracking

kid. There's no, you know... She has a mustache. She has a mustache. She secretly Jewish, Morinstein. But people talk about it now being revolutionary, and you never saw it that way while you were making it. You were just making a show, correct? And at a certain point, we knew that we were making the right show at the right time, because it was just sort of what was happening to women in general then. So it was the timing, you know, the thing that you can't create yourself, just was right. Right. And coincidentally, it was a time when the only time in the history. history of television when a new president of television came over and the first thing he did was cancel a bunch of top 20 shows because they were all those bucolic petticoat junction you know

that's right that's right and he canceled them when they were enormously successful shows it's never happened before or six it wouldn't you imagine today i think at the time cbs had maybe nine of the top you know 20 shows or they were just killing it with westerns and the president of the company he said, I've always heard this rumor that it was wife who was embarrassed by this bucolic comedy and thought that it was lame. I don't know if that's true, but he came in and he said, let's get rid of all of these, which can you imagine? Enormously successful, highest rated shows. Yeah. Yeah. And got rid of all of them and put a complete new stamp on what CBS was all about, but I've always been. And a half year earlier, he had, one of the first shows to come out of that was

all in the family as he built a new CBS. And then at the last minute, we were in a death time period with the Mary Tyler Moore show, and he changed us and put us behind all in the family. Or else I don't think we would have happened. Right. I think we would have been lost. I think you said no one, and again, you'll tell me, I never said that. Anyone who sets out to make a revolutionary TV show isn't going to. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think with room 222, because it was, I think the second show to have a black lead, the first show to have two main black characters. You know, so that was, you know, that felt good. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was happening. And, but this, you know, certainly didn't see a comic. I remember room 222, seeing that and noticing

the difference that these did seem, you know, usually when high school students were served up to us, It was, you know, guys in Letterman sweaters, and it was, it felt very much like Ozzie Nelson, Ricky Nelson kind of stuff. And this felt like people I knew. I wasn't in high school. I think it's 1969, so I was about six years old when that show came out. But I remembered thinking, these feel like people I see in my life, and they feel authentic. I didn't even probably, I didn't know the word authentic, but it felt real to me. The director-producer of the show, Gene Reynolds, who was, you know, when we were working for him,

and he kept on sending me back to the high school, kept on sending me back. I'd finish research. I'd go to him. I said, yeah, I got it. No, you don't. Go back. And I sat in classes for a while, and there was a teacher showed up, you know. And I was hanging at this high school, at his insistence.

And, you know. Do that now when you're in trouble. I'm working on a TV. show. I don't think you are, sir. Come with us. I thought it was raining. That's why I'm wearing this coat. Why do you have all that candy? Now that's a different story. I have low blood sugar. I think a huge, you know, it's interesting too. This was an era when I feel like there was a real leadership in television, real, you know, people like Grant Tinker who, who, yeah, had taste and would go out on a limb,

and they weren't just trying to follow the latest trend. When I was in college and working on the humor magazine, The Lampoon, I was there all the time. I practically lived in that building because I was obsessed with comedy. And one night, there was a knock at the door, and I opened the door, and there in a double-breasted suit is Grant Tinker,

and he was standing with Brandon Tartikoff. Wow. And they were doing some event at Harvard, and they saw this building, and they knew, oh, you know, some funny writers are coming out of that place. And they just wanted to see it. So they knocked on the door and I opened the door. And they asked for a tour.

I was 19, I think. And I just led them around the building and showed them everything and answered all their questions and worked up the nerve to make a couple of quips along the way. And then as they walked out the door, you know, I remembered Brandon, Grant Tinker looked like someone out of guys and dolls. He had like a pinstripe suit, you know. But I led them around and then I, you know, took them to the first. front door and I remember Brandon Tardukov just saying like, well, Conan, you're a funny guy. I think I lived off that for a decade. Did you ever tell them that after you had arrived in television?

I don't think so. I mean, I did a pilot with, Roberts Miley and I did a pilot with Brennan Tardikoff. I don't know that I took the chance in our one or two meetings with him. Amazing. And these were people with real talent and taste and sensibility. And I think that's in short supply these days. So many people are running scared in not just television but film. People are running for cover that it's, I don't know if we'll see their like again. Data. What's that? It was data.

It was all, you know, this is before data. Yes. Yes. I mean, they had their thing, but it was very rudimentary. No, now we have actual computers that tell us we don't like Jews, mustaches, or divorce. Turns out they were right. I don't know why we fought it so hard. I'm very curious about Mary Tyler Moore because she played a big part in my life

because when I first got my late night show, for reasons I still didn't understand and I was under fire for this kid doesn't have it. Who is he? He seems awkward. Mary Tyler Moore was my second guest. She was the first guest on the second show and then came back routinely and was an incredible talk show guest. And of course, I couldn't believe that I was sitting here talking to someone who was coming through my television, Dick Van Dyke Show, on a black and white TV in my kitchen

in Brooklyn, Mass, and I'm eating bologna strips. My mother put in a bowl. And I'm watching this person. Yeah, I was being punished. I was on war rations. But that was a big meal back then. But I mean, it was a big, it was a big, I had this feeling of, she is making eye-com. contact with me and using my first name, and it still seems unreal to me. What was working with her like on that show? I'm trying to phrase this so that I can really, there was an extraordinary thing she did, the great star of the show, and she used all the power she had not to have the power and to make it a company and to make everybody, you know, feel like that. An ensemble. Yeah. Yeah. So it was never like, you know, we had to worry what would Mary think. I mean,

you know, we'd have a run through, we'd try and fix whatever, you know, needed fixing. And she never came to the office. We were on, and at seven years, we got, I remember the best thing I did in my life is they were saying, let's go out while we're ahead. Let's call it a go. Let's call it a go at six. And I said seven. So that was the, that was the, that was the, I just bought a boat. The best word. That's the great motivator. Buy a boat and you'll do three more ceases.

Also, I never believe Get Out While You're ahead. No. If I buy a boat, it's going to be called the SS. Ride it to the bottom. So you wanted seven, and I know she did have a note, or I believe she had a note on the final episode. One of the few times that she... Never, the first time, the only time, seven years, never did it.

Never came to our office to say something. It was nuts. It was nuts. The nation stopped for our final. It was like crazy. You can't. It was crazy the extent of it. Do you remember the share or the number that it got?

Because that's an error that has passed. You know, the Super Bowl wouldn't get the share of the number. I'm not into numbers 52%. I think. I always heard it was 51. You're 52. Forgetting Iowa. Okay.

Okay. Incredible. But she had a note on the last episode, which was. That everybody had said their farewell, and we hadn't done it for her. Oh, wow. And I can't imagine, I can't explain it. But then we did it. And it's one of the best moments I've ever been part of.

Is it the shuffling out together? No, oh, that was on the set. That was great. We were running it, and they could get into a group hug. They're all saying goodbye and it's over. They're in a group hug. They're all hugging each other, six, I think, six people hugging each other. And they're crying.

And they said there was something who had Kleenex in the hug. And in dress, we said, no, no, the Kleenex is on the table. So the group hugging each other moves to the table. Oh, it's such a, I mean, I remember. And it was the way to go out. It was just the way to go out. And there was a famous episode where the lights, Mary's going to have a party. her parties always go badly.

She says that Johnny Carson's coming to the party. Of course, Johnny Carson is the biggest star in television. We are excited that he's going to show up. And all he knew was that he would do the show. And then we made that show because we heard that he'd do it. Yeah. So he made the show because Johnny Carson said he'd do it, which was an impossibility.

He didn't do things. It's not like today where everybody's everywhere. It just was, you couldn't believe that the most famous man in America is going to, who doesn't do anything other than the Tonight Show is going to show, is going to show up and the lights go out. Mary's apartment loses its lights. And then Johnny Carson enters in the dark and you hear him. And it was,

you never saw him. You never saw him. And it was you got Johnny Carson and had the balls to say, you're never going to, and you heard him. And you couldn't believe that this show would get Johnny Carson and then not show him and just could hear his voice. And it was just magical. I think about you have this run in television and then you say, okay, I'm going to do movies.

And that's the leap that I always think is fascinating when someone says, I think I could do this. I could make a movie. I would, of course, I've never had that impulse. I've never thought I could direct. But clearly this is just something that was in you. You knew this is something I could. I can't explain it. I had no ambition to be a director.

I just simply didn't. So your first feature film is, in terms of endearment. Yeah. Okay. A movie you can go back to and back to and back to again, and it's become more relevant because of the way we experience news now. It is prophetic, you know, talking about emotion and drama being inserted into the news and people being a newsman being relatable.

You're talking about a broadcast news? I'm sorry. Thank you so much. I was trying to think, I was just trying to think how to save them. I just want you to know. There was nothing. I didn't recoil. Excuse me.

I actually wanted to come to his aid. Let me explain something to you. That's the kind of guy I am. Let me explain something to you. Maybe you haven't watched it in a while. I'm doubling down. Terms of Endermin begins. Begins in a news.

You've got to make this podcast less. I just bought a boat. Okay. So keep it going. Okay. I apologize. And you will fix this. I know you will.

No, you have to leave it. No, but all. And if you say it. Listen, I'm going to make it very clear to you that I was right the first time. And I find that if I never apologize, and I'm seeing this play out in public life in politics. But yeah, the original terms of endearment was a version of broadcast news. And it's a really weird turn when everyone decides to abandon the newsroom. But did you feel comfortable the minute you were directing?

did it feel to you like this was oh i this is this is i feel like a duck in water you know i i was i was working with you know with jack nicholson the actor the the guy the star he made it great because he'd come up to me you know sort of like he said you want to know the worst direction you gave today and then he said you want to know the best direction and so he was tutoring you a little bit he was he was he was being great to me He was just, he was just sort of half, sort of three-quartered kidding, but just in my corner. And that's, that's what, that's, that's, that's, that made it work. I would imagine you'd be intimidated a little by him. He was a, you know, just, I mean, he still is, a massive star.

No, he was, I mean, he was, I mean, great, I mean, you know, that was, there was a scene. I think I was in that movie, there was a scene. I, I came to him and he said, this actually happened. I said, too angry. It's just too angry. And then I said, again, you know, it was just too angry. And then he did the scene and sort of blew up that I kept on doing this, you know, just, he was just blowing up, not performance. And I said, that's it.

And that was, you know, and then we both, I mean, he broke up and I broke up. But it was it. It was just, it seemed too angry until suddenly it was like nobody had ever done it just like that. I'd always heard, is it true that Bert Reynolds turned down that role and did Stroker Ace instead? That's, no, he did a picture. He did a different picture. He did a picture with like 12 women in it and him or something like that. That's the movie we all want to make.

Yeah. And he was the number one box office star in America. And he had said he'd do it. And then he turned it down for this movie. And, you know, and I had the number one star doing my movie. And then I got a phone call from his press agent. Bert's decided not to do the movie but he wants you to know he loved you.

And he sent a little jacket, a little, that the jacket, I just looked at it and it was medium and I'm alarged. Oh, man. Oh, Bert. Yeah.

It was just the jacket he was wearing that day. Yeah, it was just whatever he was. It had burned. written in it in ink. Just said gun smoke on it. Absolutely incredible. I intend to embarrass you with this,

but you've got three Oscars, 22 Emmys, a Golden Globe. You need to immediately be in a Broadway show because we need to get you a Tony. And I think you're set, right? A Grammy. A Grammy. Damn it, you need a Grammy.

Well, golden gloves could be the G in there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you got to get the E got. There are very few that can claim that. I'm sorry, I think these are good ideas I'm pitching you. Oh, you used to like my ideas. Now, suddenly... Check, please.

Sir, please. We try again with a different pasta. You took a hiatus from directing for how many years? I don't know, man. Hey, are you high? I don't know, man. I don't know, man. Leave me alone.

You got nothing better to talk about. You took a... This is the first movie, Ella McKay. Your new movie is the first one you've directed in 15 years, I believe. And did it feel when you got on set,

like you're just right back where you started? I was producing other films and I was on set all the time when I do that. And I was working. I just, you know, I don't even...

I have not. no explanation for it. And then I went, I was going nuts because I think, you know, I'm not myself unless I'm writing. And that's, and Elma Case, you know, happened that way. Yeah. And you have terrific cast. Yeah. I was very happy to see Julie Kavner in there. Oh, man. I mean, I know she's been a long part of your history, but I got to know her at the Simpsons and she's just A force of... God, you... You look at the movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're going to feel great seeing her. She takes... Oh, no, she starts the movie. Yeah, she's the narrator. She's the narrator, and she starts by looking... And I love the narrator saying, I'm the narrator, and this is what's happening. I felt very taken care of by her, you know?

Oh, great. Yeah, yeah, lovely. Yeah, yeah. And she's, I mean, that voice was first burned into my brain on Rota, I believe, is where I first heard it. Yeah, when she was a kid. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, she just cuts through everything. And I know, oh, I know her. Yeah. She's going to hold my hand and take me through this journey. Show me the person who doesn't love her. I mean, it's just especially, you know, and that happens in the, in the movie. And she's literally the narrator taking you through it. Did it feel to you when you were

making it like this is the experience I've had before? After taking a break for a while, it feel like, yes, I'm putting on an old coat. This fits, this process, you know. You know, when you're going to direct, you leave the world, you know, you leave the world, even more intense than when you're writing, I think, when God knows you leave the world a bit. And these days, to have an idea and to say, gee, it's sort of funny and sort of, you know, maybe that. And to be able to get a movie made out of it, you got to appreciate the shit out of it, you know,

because it's not those kind of days. Specifically, I mean, how is it different? Just that there's so much. I mean, well, it's the thing about data, you know, that you know this will work because you run the numbers and stuff like that. And there are no numbers to run on, hey, I got an idea. And, you know, so you're lucky. You know, it's great.

You get to make it. You probably won't remember this, but you came on my show early, early days, I think 1994. I might have still been writing it, yeah. And I've done a long time on that script. Yeah. But you came on my talk show, the late night show, and you, we got into this conversation about how well you write for women, which is in full force in Ella McKay. And you talked then, and I thought I'd revisit it now just briefly, which is that you were raised by women.

And you think that had a profound effect on your ability to write to those characters? Yeah, the conversations of women were, you know, my whole upbringing. It was hard stuff going on. And I was a child, and I always heard my mother and her two sisters were enormously close. And I just, you know, I had an older sister who helped raise me because, you know, circumstances were, you know, just tough for a while. And I heard, and I did. I was, I grew up hearing them talk. It's, it's, it's also interesting to me that in this movie, past trauma informs everything that's happening for the character of Ella. It's like the things that she's gone through with

her father and death of her mother. It's all informed, and, and her family and even her husband. People are, she's, she's not catching a break from a lot of people in her life. And, and it's, it's interesting to me that it's not unlike your story where you had some traumatic experiences when you were younger. That's the same, but she's a remarkable kid. Yeah. She's a remarkable kid who as a remarkable kid has to handle things no kid should have to handle. And the thing that held it up for a long time was finding out who could play the part. Because the thing that the thing that was in my mind was I always loved those Catherine Hepper and Orgy Hepper movies, those 1950s movies. That was, I mean, I was nuts about them. And this is, this was really, you know, me trying to copy

them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was fascinating. Homage. I think homage is the better word. Yeah. Everything's an homage. Yes. No, it is a true. Writers Guild. It's an homage. In tribute, too, in tribute too. But it's interesting, because my experience with you on the Simpsons was you would always remind us, make sure you're writing for Lisa, make sure you're writing for Marge, because left to my own devices, I would only write about Mr. Burns. I mean, I only wanted, you know, because he had unlimited wealth and was in evil, that's a fantasy for me that I can, you can have a character who has a hyperbaric chamber,

golden robots, you can release hound. Anything can happen. And if I was just left alone in a room, every single episode I wrote would have been Mr. Burns goes to college. Mr. Burns. Mr. Burns gets his period, you know, which is one I wrote,

projected because they said science doesn't back this. But anyway, that was, your voice was often heard in the room. saying we need to make sure that this family exists and that all of these characters are utilized and that they're real. Even if amazing, weird, strange things are happening in a cartoon, it has to have this inner integrity, which I still think is bullshit. I just wanted to get you here to tell you that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's always, funny is always the object. But yeah, but I think, yeah, I think it, yeah, I think that was always true.

the show, I think it is true about the show. It's unbelievable that it's still going. I mean, to me, it's been, I left that show in 1993 and said, well, you know, I'm out of here and this thing's got another year to go. It's going to fold without me. Yeah, there's no way this continues without me, which I say whenever I leave a room. I say that at parties. I say that when I leave a restaurant, this Denny's will surely perish without my.

So I'm shocked when I see them still functioning. But I, yeah. And then I've had the experience of going back 30 years later and they're, some of the same people are there. It's absolutely incredible. They're chained to the wall. There's skeletons. I mean, it's incredible.

But it's one of the great success stories in TV history. Absolutely amazing. It's amazing to me. It's amazing to everybody on the show. You know, it's just, it is. It is. It's, yeah. Yeah, I remember that, and we went on when the Fox network was on life support.

Yes. And then we got the cover of a magazine, sort of like antenna news or something like that. It was, it was, you never heard of the magazine, but we were on the cover. And I put it on my office wall. And then all of a sudden that wall was covered with covers. Yeah. Yeah, it was like crazy. It was a phenomenon and it was the biggest thing.

Michael Jackson. I mean, talk about Johnny Carson doing the, doing Mary Tyler Moore as a guest star, you think, well, you can't top that, but Michael Jackson in, I think, 1988 or 89, appearing as a guest star. And you had Carson, too, right? Didn't he? Yeah, Carson was there. I was there the day Carson came in to do his voice.

because he's, I think he's helping out crusty at one point. And it was just after Johnny had retired and wasn't doing anything. And then he said he'd do The Simpsons. And I, it's burned into my brain that day because he came in, coolest looking guy ever. He had a file of facts and two packs of cigarettes unopened. He sat down. He did his voices, he did his records. And then we, of course, had a million things we wanted him to sign.

And so he sat there signing and started talking to us and we were asking questions. I think he liked being around a room of writers, and he missed it. And he chatted with us. And then I went out, I had to do something. And when I came back, he was just walking to his white corvette. Every year, I think he got a brand new white corvette. And he got in it and he had his cool sunglasses on. And he said, I don't do it, Johnny Carson, but excuse me, how do I?

And I say, you go down there and you take a right. And he said, thank you. And he took off. That was pretty good. He took off. He took off and he took a right-hand turn. And just as he took the right hand turn, I remembered, it's a left. Oh, no.

And I'm dying and I'm watching, watching. And what here he's going is to a cul-de-sac that takes you pretty much to, like, Olympic Boulevard. But you can't access it because it's a lot. Oh, you suck. And I waited. And then after about a minute and a half, the car came back the other way. And so I know that Johnny Carson was thinking, fucking asshole. You should have said, I said left, moron.

I said left, moron. I said left, you white-haired fuck! Oh my God! Man, opportunities missed. I wish you had been there. But yeah, absolutely amazing. This has been a joy. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Congrats on your new movie, Ella McKay. And just getting to any chance I ever have to connect with you is magical for me. Thanks, man. You've made a huge difference. in my life, and I can't thank you enough. Mumble, mumble, mumble, yeah. Mumble, mumble, mumble. No, thank you.

We're going to put in using AI, we're going to put you in the end saying, please, Conan, you're the most talented person I've ever met. And you're going to hear it later, and there's going to be a lawsuit. And we're going to insert a lot of things. Conan, you look fantastic.

But we'll keep this part in as well. Yes, yes. You keep this in exposing my terrible crime. admit I'm a little terrified because Aaron Blair, aka Blay, says he has an idea for a segment. And, you know, I guess we don't know what it is. We don't know what it is. Yeah. So here we go.

Blay, I tremble, but you have the floor. So I don't normally do this, as you know. And I like to think of myself generally as a unifier, bringing people together. I don't want to be divisive. I don't want to tear us apart as a group. But, you know, sometimes. Is this preamble? is going on forever.

You know, sometimes a man comes to a time and life. Well, it's not a very, there's not a lot, too. A lot, not a lot of meat on this bone, so I'm trying to draw it out. Keep in mind, you threw Eduardo under the bus for watching. Okay. But also, I will say, shots were taken at me. So I feel like, you know, you know, turnabout is fair play. I still don't know what you're talking about and we're 40 minutes.

I'm going to get to it now. I'm going to get to it now. So Chalemi and I, after every podcast, we clean up. You know, we want to leave a good studio for a nice, clean studio. for the next people coming in. Sure. And the other day, I found this in Matt Goreley's chair.

Oh, no. Oh. Oh. Well, obviously I... Squirled away in the chair, which I cleaned up. And I just... I have to say, that's disgusting.

Matt came at me. Matt came at me with my multiple drinks in a previous segment. I was just curious about it. And so I saw that, I was like, oh, I got him. I got him. I obviously would not have left that there if I knew. I apologize. First of all, Matt is an extremely cleanly person.

I am. Cleanly? I can't speak anymore. You could just say clean person. No, he is one who cleanly clings to. Matt is a man of cleanness. You are... I barely shower.

No, that is... He's trying to help you. No, no, that is uncharacteristic of Matt. And I'm sure he just... just forgot it. I find it interesting that you think he came at you for your different drinks because I thought it was just him saying, hey, what's that all about? But it's a deep wound for you. I didn't realize you were now a ringless gollum in your cave. He clearly came out me. He just like the drinks backfired on you. I knew this is going to happen. It was hostile. I'm just saying. The way you

went at him was a little hostile. I like to bring people together. But I, you know, you keep saying that, but I don't think you do. I think it's indicative of a bigger issue. which is we don't really clean up after ourselves that well. You especially. I do. I just miss that. You have a thousand drinking vessels and none of them get picked up afterwards. Okay.

Let's look at the whole picture. When you guys say we've got to clear out of this room and make way for the next, you know, taping, I'm thinking to myself, this is my building. This is the only reason this exists is for Conan O'Brien. Ryan needs a friend. This is my studio. And then it suddenly it turned out to be this Airbnb that I get to hang out in for like 20 minutes. And then I better get my ass out of here. And you better clean up. No. Not at all. That's insane. This is outrageous. This is my, I'm Hearst and this is Hurst Castle. One, I've got three mugs here. Two are filled with coffee because I drink a lot of coffee. I've also got a tea. And your water. I've also got these Kleenex, which, by the way, I'm more than happy to throw all over the place. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Achoo! Abahoo! Abahee! There's just tissues everywhere. Listen to me, I didn't claw my way to the top of this business so that I could better get out of here quickly to make way for the other podcast it's coming in hanging with Joe Bilibai. But first, I... I better clean up after myself.

Let's see now. I'm got all these little cups. Better take them in. Uh-oh, Eby's coming. I better wash everything thoroughly. No. No! Eby does run a tight ship.

She does. She does. And you are a little scared of her. I am terrified of E. And I will say Erica Brown. And this is her place. She runs it. She's the queen.

And when she even looks at, looks at me if I'm using one of those metal straws, I know my only thought in my head is not to enjoy my Haley Bieber smoothie since no longer named the Haley Bieber smoothie, by the way. I don't know if there was some, yeah, I think she got into a fight with, I don't think she, maybe her, the contract expire. Oh, wow. It's no longer called a Haley Bieber smoothie. And that means you could get in there.

I want to get in there. It could be your smoothie. I want to get that smoothie. I think I probably have to add something. So I'll just say like throw some, I don't know, put a Snickers bar in there and call it the Conan O'Brien. Put a little crem to mint in there. So yeah, my point was, where were we? I was saying you're talking a big game about making a mess.

But if Erica Brown walks in here, you will clean up after yourself because you're scared a little bit, as we all are. Erica Brown, out by the kitchen. If I even see her, I start scrubbing surfaces. I said... You were talking such a big game. No, no, that's true. No, that's true. But in here, oh no, I might risk the disapproval of Blaine. Fuck that.

Fuck that. I hired you when you were a fetish. I was the one that removed your umbilical cord. You still had it attached. This is crazy because normally I would be defending you. I'm your biggest defender. And now since, you know, you teed me up, I say, go.

Yeah, you go. And so, no, if you have to do a little cleaning afterwards, Blay, I mean, I've kept you in your faux, goofy watches. That's right. You live in an apartment that's filled with little action figures and posters. Life-size predator statue. Yeah. Is that right?

Yeah. Well, one day. Yeah. Saving up for it. Saving up. Yeah. It was either that. Or a wife.

Or much needed. Let's see. Life. size Predator's statue. Anyway, Blay, I respect where you're coming from. It's just that you're completely wrong. I apologize, you and chills.

I'm very conscientious about that thing. It's not like I ever walked in on cash a peeing or anything like that. It was all in good fun. Again, it was all in jest. I really don't care. I just was seeing it as a good opportunity to get you back for the drinks.

And I also got burned by Conan like you got burned with the drinks. So now we're even. Listen, listen, the important, thing is that if people are hating each other and trying to get each other, we've recreated my childhood. I'm very happy. I hate how you

have pulled the strings to make us all go at each other when we should be going after you. Why are we divided? Why are we divided? You're right. The devil's greatest trick is making you believe he doesn't exist. Well, anyway, Conan O'Brien needs a friend. The happy

friendly show by a guy with no inner demons. And just like that, he was All right, everybody. Clean up after yourselves. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Brian, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Goreley. Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leow. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair. And our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnik.

Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brick Con. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up. at SiriusXM.com slash Conan.

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