Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - John Lithgow

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

Actor John Lithgow is already Conan O’Brien’s friend. John sits down with Conan to discuss his favorite sketches from collaborating together during SNL, the inconveniences of being tall, and select excerpts from his new book A Confederacy of Dumptys: Portraits of American Scoundrels in Verse. Later, Conan welcomes back Matt Gourley during his State of the Podcast address. Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone]. For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.

Hi, I'm John Lithgow, and, well, I'm one subject who is already a friend of Conan's, but only a really passing friend, although we go way, way back. We go way back. I think you were about eight years old and writing for Saturday Night Live. Yes, yes. Yeah, I was a very nice little girl. And I've been through a lot of changes since then. Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brandy shoes, walking lose,

climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are gonna be friends, I can tell that we are gonna be friends. Hello, Conan O'Brien here, coming at you with great force and gusto. Wow. The old podcast, Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, and joined by Sonam of Session. Hello. And the trustee, Matt Gorely. Hello.

Recently back from Paternity Leave. That's right. Finally. I know. Yeah. It's, you know, I didn't get much Paternity Leave, but it's okay. Something tells me you took yourself out of Paternity Leave. You like to work.

Like, you were probably granted it. It's partially true, and also my wife, I think, said, I'm happier when you're not here. Please get your bits. She said, postpartum, your bits are not holding up. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Out.

I got my babies, you're excused indefinitely. Exactly. I'll see you at their graduation from military academy. I had a bit of an adventure yesterday. I've been feeling more and more pain on the right side of my face and head in general. And for a while, I thought, is this sinuses, although I don't get sinus stuff? And then finally, I couldn't take it anymore, and I went to the dentist. I'm always slow to go to a dentist because I, for the obvious reasons, you know.

Dentists. Yeah. That sucks. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I don't, I think they do a great service to humanity. No, they don't. They suck.

Yeah. I went in to this dentist and they took an X-ray and then they saw that I had a big abscess under my rear right molar lower side, the lower jaw. And they said, okay, you're going to need a root canal. Ew. So they sent me to a root canal specialist who was absolutely fantastic. He was great. Did a great job.

But the first thing he noticed when he looked at the X-ray was, oh, you've got very long tooth nerves. And at first I thought that's a compliment. Like you've got a lot of nerve. Well, no. Yeah. You've got a lot of tooth nerve. You've got a lot of tooth nerve, buddy.

I just thought it meant, oh, this is an indication that I'm brave or sexual prowess, you know? You know what I mean? What? No. When someone says you've got extra of something, you're like, hey, high fives all around, right? Tooth nerve? And I, so I maybe took it too far and when he said, you've got like, he said, wow, you've got long and deep tooth nerves.

And I was like, yeah, long and deep high five. And he was like, eh, don't do that. But anyway, because of that, you know, with the, with the, with that procedure, they got to go in all the way and get that tooth nerve out. And I apologize to any, I should have put a trigger warning at the top of this for anyone who's bothered by these things, but they basically had to go into some jaw bone there. And man. Oh, God.

You know, novocaine and everything, I didn't feel anything. It was a great procedure. And then I went home and last night, my wife and daughter are sitting there and they're watching Project Runway and I don't realize it, but my, my pain relief is wearing off. The novocaine's wearing off. You know? Yeah. And he had given me a pain pill, but I just was like, I won't need that.

And I put it in my backpack. So I'm sitting there and I'm watching Project Runway. I didn't even realize this, but my, my wife and daughter were talking about it today. They were like, man, you were just so nasty during Project Runway. Oh my God. And it's because the pain in my jaw was elevating the whole time and I was holding the side of my head and watching Project Runway. And anytime someone came out with an outfit, I'd go, that's not an outfit.

An outfit sucks. That looks like shit. And they're like, hey, could you tone it down? Oh my God. It's all baggy. They rushed the hemline. What? What are you talking about?

I like to think that you weren't angry because of the pain, but your sense of fashion was heightened because of the pain. You just really knew what you're talking about. You know what it was? My resistance to fashion all resided in that molar nerve. And when they removed it, I immediately, no, I was just, I think I could have been watching greatest movie in the history of the world, or my favorite movie, like Godfather One or Two, and just been like, this is stupid.

Why would the mafia, you know what, you talked a while ago about, you did a whole segment about how you had a pain in your mouth and it absolutely wasn't tooth pain. It was your sinuses. So now is it, was it tooth pain all along? It was tooth pain. Oh, we did a whole... I know. And I just, and I want this to be a public service announcement.

No, in fairness, I did go at a cleaning and complain about my tooth pain, and they did an x-ray, but they didn't see the abscess. Oh. And I think it's because it wasn't big enough yet. So what happened was, then I went back, and so because I had gone the first time, I thought, well, it's not the tooth. Oh. And someone said, well, if it's not the tooth, it's the sinus.

So then I went and got treated for the sinus thing, but didn't do anything. And then I was like, okay, all right, this is the tooth. My motto is, if you're in pain and think it's a tooth thing, wait, wait until it gets so bad that you have to get, go back in. This is on your family crest? Yes, in Latin. In Latin, it's on my family crest. All right.

But I'm feeling great now. Pain is gone, and a little motrin, they gave me an extra powerful motrin. That's good. That must feel nice. And I feel really good right now, which means this is going to be a great episode. And I'm excited. Yeah. I'm drugged up, and I'm ready to talk to you.

And how is our fashion sense? You know what? It's now I don't care anymore, because the pain is gone. So you're just a guy in a T-shirt, and you're wearing a jean jacket. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I don't know. I don't like what are you doing?

Well, you're just always wearing a jean jacket. It's comfortable. You wear a lot of jackets? Yeah. You're always wearing the same thing. Anyway, that's okay. We don't all have Conan money for more than one jacket. Yeah.

I know. So don't I work with one jacket? We share a jacket. Yeah, that's right. No, I see what you guys make, and clearly you can only afford one denim jacket each. That's great. Well, no, it looks like you were just released from Chino Prison. Okay.

But anyway, good luck to you. Yeah. I'm very... Your tooth felt better. Yeah, the pain must be back. Yeah. No, that's just me. Ew.

Hey, I am very excited. My guest today is an actor. He was starred in such shows as Third Rock from the Sun, Dexter and the Netflix series The Crown. There's no way you can sum up this guy's career. I just read three credits of like 10,000 that are all brilliant. Anyway, he's won an Emmy for his portrayal at Winston Churchill. He's also a New York Times bestselling author, and his new book, It's Really Terrific.

It's called The Confederacy of Dumpty's Portraits of American Scoundrels Inverse, and it's available right now. And I think it's a great book for these times. John Lithgow, welcome. I wrote a sketch, and it was one of the first things I did on Sound Out Live. This is the first, I wrote it the first week, but we didn't have the right person to play it. And so they advised me, it did very well at read through.

They said, keep that in your back pocket until the right person comes along. And it was a sketch about a college professor whose teaches about biology, specifically the bones of the human skeleton. And he's terrified of his own skeleton. That's the sketch I wrote. That's right. And so what happened was, yes. And so what happens is, I used to, as a writer, I used to act things out.

I didn't write them out. I would act them out. So I acted out this professor saying, well, now of course, the tibia begins with the thickest portion of the shaft, the, you know, salipial iomas bone, which is a fortified calcification zone which can hold maximum impact for each step. It's located here at the end, and you turn, and there's a skeleton, and you go, oh, God! Oh, God! Oh, God!

Oh, God! Oh, God! And then the laugh was, that got a laugh, and then there was a reaction shot of the students going, what? But my favorite thing was, then you would compose yourself, and then you'd continue and say, anyway, this leads, of course, to the tibia. Now, the tibia, of course, as you can see, has a thick collection of calcium here. Oh, God!

And you would get just as scared every time. And then you would dash out of the class and go and see the dean, who was played beautifully by Phil Hartman. And then he advised you to go with a tinier skeleton, the little rubber one, which startled you. And then you, that wasn't a good, and then he said, maybe you should, maybe you could dress up the skeleton. It was the stupidest thing.

And I remembered it sticking around, and every time a host would come, I'd say, no, this host isn't going to be able to do it. They're not going to be able to do it. They're not going to be able to do it. And I won't name names. There were a couple of weeks of that, and me loving this sketch, and maybe months. And then finally you showed up, and I said, oh, my God, this is it. This is it.

And so I resubmitted it, and you did it perfectly. And everybody was dying, laughing. And it was one of those sketches that was so strange that they put it on at 1255, I think. God, but we did do it. We did do it. God, I remember. I love how you can barely remember if we did or not. And to me, it is one of the five cornerstones of my career.

No, I mean, this is so exciting, Conan, because it comes back to me as you describe it. And I remembered being very funny, but I had totally forgotten it. But the one I remembered was the one that you co-wrote with a partner. Yeah, Greg Daniels. Yes, with Greg, of all people, my God, I didn't realize it was Greg Daniels. Yes, Greg Daniels has gone on to great, great things. The minute he shed me, he went on to much bigger. No, I just think that they wrote a sketch for me, Conan and Greg, who are now on the

Rushmore of comedy writers. And it was cut. They built the entire, now I'm testing you, your memory. If it was cut, I usually had that portion of my brain excised. Well, okay, I'm going to test you. I'm going to test you. As you have just tested me and I failed, I did not remember something we actually did. And I'm going to see if you remember something that we did not do, but was fully produced

with a huge set. We rehearsed it and it was cut. You have no memory of this. Well, you have to help me out. And I spoke. I had many things cut. So I... I spoke and I...

You're saying, right now you're saying, Conan, you had a failure once. Do you remember? And I'm like, John, no, no, no, I remember my failures much more than my successes. And this is the perfect demonstration of that. I spoke with a New England accent, like a Vermont accent, and it was a fruit stand or a... It was a roadside fruit stand and I had this terrible accent and we were... And it was...

It had something to do with pepperage farm cookies. Yes. Now, is it coming back to you? It's coming back to me. Pepperage farm because it was like Milano cookies and... Yes, yes, yes. It was all... I don't remember much about the sketch, but I remembered...

And I'm going to credit this to Greg. He was, for a while, was obsessed with pepperage farm. And I remember him knowing, John Lithgow's going to be able to do a pepperage farm guy. And I'm like, yes. So... You're kidding. I don't remember much, but thank you, Greg, and your sick sugar dependency. You know, it's amazing.

Those sketches that were cut, I hosted three times. And early on, there was a just fantastic sketch where I was a priest taking the confession of a dog. And that was cut, too. I don't know why it was cut, but I came back like two times later and said, whatever happened to that great confessional dog sketch? And we brought it back in and we shot it. And sure enough, it killed.

Yeah. Some things would get revived and they could come back. But most, I would say, 99% of the time, a sketch cut had started alive, would disappear into the ether. Now, now I think they can put them online. They can have this whole other life. And they shot them for the dress rehearsal? They shoot them for the dress rehearsal.

Yes, that's right. And it's not, in the old days, they'd shoot that on film and they'd have to destroy the film or copy over the videotape. Nitrake. Yeah, exactly. When I started, it was all wax cylinders. It's Edison's wax cylinder. But now those things, I think, exist somewhere, but I remember taking part in sketches where

they built. I mean, we wrote, I think, one sketch for Jeremy Irons, where he was a guy who had crafted the perfect murder. It's him writing in his diary and he's just figured out perfectly. And then immediately, a servant comes in and sees what he's writing, goes, perfect murder. And then Jeremy Irons panics and hits him over the head and throws him out the window. And then everything goes wrong. His diary blows out the window and you can hear people down the street reading, perfect

murder. Oh, look, he signed his name. And we, it killed it rehearsal, just killed. And then we get it. They built the most elaborate, beautiful English mansion and it was going to be the premier sketch, audience, nothing, nothing. And it went away immediately. You had to wait for Lysco.

You know, I said, I said that, I said that to Jeremy Irons, I went, you know, who could have killed this? And he went, don't say Lysco. And I said, yes, Lysco, you bastard. And he said, he's been plotting the perfect crime ever since. Exactly. Humorless, humorless, humorless, angry union crew guys, you know, guys to sit around. On the floor, cross-legged, while you sang a song in an oink, oink, in a bar.

Interactive. Interactive. And you had to get them to go, bye, bye. And you did it and seeing, it was so funny and hilarious. You have many gifts, but one is, you know, and it's like the skeleton sketch. You commit 140% and you just did it and you didn't wink that it was a joke at all. You sang as if it was to these little children and to see these guys who are 50, 55, 60, you know, who've lived off of deli meat their entire life, every meal, sitting cross-legged

on the floor and you going, you know, and peep, peep, peep, peep, and ba, ba, ba, there. And they did it. And the camera would do these beautiful pans. And we actually got them a little bit of a response from them. Oh, they love that. I think for the first, I think they found their humanity. I tapped into their childhood. It was, it was a testament to you that you would no question at all, you know, just yes,

yes and. Well, you said yes, I would say yes as soon as the phone rang when I, when I heard you were requesting. Do you remember your talent show? Yes. Oh my God. That was one of my favorites. Go ahead.

Should you describe that? You describe. No, it was just wonderful. They had a talent show of the crew, of your staff and crew. I guess it was your staff. Right. It was everyone. It was everybody.

And they had all sorts of. Interns and producers and the makeup person. Yeah. And I don't know whether this was a running thing or not, but it was on one evening and they had different hapless little talent, talents that they put on display. But the last one was a magic show trick. They had this huge box. They could take a member of the audience out of the box, put him in there and say some

magic words or something and open the door and out would come a celebrity. And they called, they called me in to be the celebrity for this piece of business. And they, and they got some guy out in the, from the audience. I suppose it was one of your comedy writers. But nobody knew. Yeah. No, we always, we always, yeah. Use plants.

Yeah. And so they yanked him out of the office, put him in there and spoke the magic words and out I came, incredibly disappointed that they felt great. Now I'm John Lithgow. Yeah. You were not happy about being John Lithgow. I even mispronounced my name. Yes, I know.

That's how committed I was. You didn't say Lithgow, you said, oh, now I'm John Lithgow. And I went and sat back in his seat and just did that terrible grumpy look on my face for the rest of the show. It's great. You know, it's interesting. I was thinking about it today on the way to talk to you and I was really happy to talk to you, but you play everything.

You play people who I think are closer to who you really are, but you can also be Winston Churchill, but you can also be a serial killer. You know, it's just a truly cruel serial killer on Dexter. And I look at the whole thing and I think I never, I don't know where this comes from. I know that you had a Shakespearean training when you were very young and I'm thinking this ability to play anything. You know, you can't be typecast. Well, I don't know whether it's an ability as much as just a readiness and it's just

what you described about saying yes all the time. You call and I say yes because I know something interesting is going to happen. That's kind of been the nature of my career. I do think it comes from growing up in a theater family and that theater was Shakespeare. My father producing Shakespeare festivals in Ohio. This curious kind of hybrid English and American theater upbringing. When you think about Shakespeare and Shakespeare's plays and how he wrote them, he wrote them for a theater company, the same actors and he wrote all kinds of plays and all kinds

of parts and you almost got get the feeling that almost like the SNL troop giving them something completely different this time out. And then putting it into the repertory so that it's what they did, a different play, a different part and as different as possible every night of the week. And I grew up doing that as a kid. I was always a bit part player starting from the age of seven when I played little kids in Shakespeare plays right up until my late teens when I was like an apprentice member of the company playing all the bit parts in Shakespeare.

William Poins, Pinch, Froth, all these one-syllable character parts and I never did get any higher than Guildenstern and Benvolio. I never played a major Shakespearean role until I got to college but I had been in 20 Shakespeare plays and seven per summer in repertory. So an extremely different every night and different make-ups back in those days make-up was like kabuki, putty noses and crepe hair eyebrows, false beards and even gluing hemp rope to your sideburns, you know, just... That's the...

It's so funny that you bring all that up because that's the show business I always wanted to be in. I mean, I started out in this very antiseptic kind of, you go into that room and write up some sketches. This was long before I got to SNL and then submit them and then maybe months from now you'll see it on HBO or you won't but you'll have nothing to do with what happens in between and then finding my way to start out live and seeing a donkey backstage. Someone dressed as a chorus girl and, you know, Keith Richards or the real Keith Richards

getting coffee and trying to talk to the donkey thinking it was a person and thinking like, this is what I wanted. I want to hear people tuning instruments. I want to hear and what you're describing is backstage costumes. The audience is filing in the nerves. There's an animal in act, you know, in the third act that just got loose backstage. That's the kind of show business that's been around for all of humanity that I really love. I love that and it feels to me like that's still with you.

Yeah. And the more you can be a part of the process, the better. You know, third rock from the sun was that way. We went roaring from one crazy idea to another all year long and you were there with the writers constantly working with them and some of the most exhilarating moments were intractable problems where you couldn't find the funny. Sometimes you would discard the script altogether and turn it into an extended three minute long silent bit of business that killed and you got to put it in front of an audience

two or three days later. It's like the process. You're so right. That's the most exhilarating part of it. I love rehearsals, I love the first pass and then trying something different on the second pass of every scene, which is what we did all the time on third rock. Yes. We just had this wonderful third rock reunion a couple of nights ago.

That's right. Sona was following. She said it was everywhere. It was everywhere and I'm a big fan of third rock from the sun. So I was so excited to see the four of you together again. Yeah. Plus it was the first time we'd been together in the same room since final episode of third rock like 19 years ago.

But I told the story on that occasion. I had never imagined myself doing a sitcom because it seemed so much the same thing year after year and gradually jumping the shark and basically tapping out. They presented me, Bonnie and Terry, it all started with Saturday Night Live. I worked with Bonnie and Terry Turner. They were a comedy writing team at Silent Live and we were of the same vintage. So they presented me with this premise of this alien trying to figure out how in the world to be human and trying everything so that you ended up speaking in accents and

singing Cole Porter and dancing like Fred Astaire, all of it haplessly and cluelessly and making comedy out of that. And I just went for that in like five minutes after they pitched it to me. And truly it was the last rule I'd ever made for myself. Don't get locked into a sitcom. Don't get locked into episodic TV, just blown out the window. They've all learned the big rule is have your rules and I've had plenty of rules in my career and then be prepared to throw them out if it's for the right reason.

When they approached me and said, would you want to do a podcast? I thought, well, I have a TV show and what would I, does anyone want to? And then I found, oh, wait a minute, I'm talking to people like you for 45 minutes. And it's a whole, I often leave this podcast feeling like if there were any disease in my body, it's gone now. Because I've just had this great mind meld with a musician or a statesman or someone like yourself and I just feel better. Well, we have a lot in common, you know, we're both quite tall, I believe you are taller

than me, but I don't think so. I'm about six four. I'm exactly six four. Okay. So we're about the same, I think. And I don't know if you were happy about that. Someone told me that you used to be a cab driver for a while.

Yes. This is three years ago. When you had the third rock money ran out and I remembered I hailed a cab and it was very embarrassing for you, I think. But and that your main complaint about being a cab driver was that you're the wrong height. Yeah. You don't see tall cab drivers because they give all the leg room to the passengers in the back.

Yeah. And not much at that. You're stuck in this sort of frog leg position. I was practically crippled by the few, very few times I drove a cab in New York. You'll also find that you and I will never be fighter jet pilots. Right. I did a USO tour and got to actually land on an aircraft carrier and got up and tried to my best to entertain everybody on board and then they, no, I was, they flew me in

on a larger plane, but then they said, we got to show you the really cool up to date fighter planes. And they opened the cockpits for me and I looked at them and I was like, looked at the pilots who are all there to show me and they were all about five, six. And I said, they looked at me and I, because I was kind of interested in getting into the cockpit and they were like, yeah, it's never going to happen. I looked at this space that they sit in and it's. So you never got to go up.

Oh, I couldn't fit. I couldn't begin to fit. I think they would have had to have hack off. You needed a procrustian bench. Yeah. You, you of course know the procrustus reference. Sure, I do. Because you and I also went to Harvard.

That's true. That's true. Yes. The source of all our arrogance and all our embarrassment. Well, I find, yeah. If you're anything like me, it's been nothing but a constant source of humiliation because you go to Harvard and people, I never bring it up, but of course then it gets in your bio.

And then you go back to Harvard and give a speech and a chunk of the speech was just how much it's plagued my life. Because if you do anything slightly stupid and I do lots of stupid stuff, but you know what I mean? When I microwave, when I put a giant thing of tin foil into the microwave, because I forget and something explodes, it's always, so, Harvard guys, and I'm like, well, I never said I was that smart. I just looked good in a blazer.

Do you know, I read that speech. I read a transcript of that speech. And you articulated that phenomenon better than anybody I've ever heard because it is so true. It's, yeah. I mean, just think of auditioning as an unemployed actor in New York. It is your darkest secret. You don't tell anyone.

Oh, sure. Because God forbid you should be better educated than the person who can either hire or not hire you. And also, there was assumption for a long time that if you had gone to that school, you were extremely wealthy, you know, like Thurston Howell III on Gilligan's Island. And so there was this like, whenever you were found doing, taking some lower job, people would be like, well, what happened, Pate, your father, you know, can't you send the chauffeur over to help you?

Like, no, no, no, my dad, my dad's in academic medicine. There's no, he drives a really shitty station wagon. No, I know. Sure, he does. Why doesn't the man's servant come over and help you? No, I think it's, but it's probably what has motivated us in all sorts of ways to be kind of defiantly obtuse. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's very interesting how this platoon of Harvard comedy writers has sort of entered the business. I know. And all of them deny their heritage, their Harvard background. Well, you know, what's interesting is that I've had at one point, I mean, there have been times where I've sort of heard people being disapproving of all these people went to Harvard and got this amazing education, and then they become comedy writers. And I mean, they could have been out curing cancer.

And I'm always very quick to point out, I knew all these people on the lampoon that wrote comedy. None of them could have cured cancer. None of them could have invented a way to get energy from the sun. I know these people. This is really the best and least harmful way for them to be of service, myself included. But they've also sort of put their stamp on our comedy culture. Very distinctively, you know, the Letterman show and the Simpsons and all variety and

SNL. It's somehow connected with this curious combination of arrogance and self-contempt. Yeah. Yeah. You know, an embarrassment. I think if, yeah, there is something there, I think for anything good to come out of anybody, there has to be a lot of strong opposing forces, you know, which is I'm desperately afraid to perform, but oh my God, I've got to perform.

Yeah. I'm not afraid to assert myself, but I must assert myself. I hate myself, but I'd love to see my picture everywhere. Exactly. I don't know what that is. Well, but it's certainly got so much to do with comedy. Yeah. I mean, hear John Cleese talk about it, you know, about how he writes about the terrible

embarrassment that every Englishman lives with. Repression is one word for it. Another is just social fear and what a relief to have your words written for you and to have someone else decide what's funny about you and just hurl yourself out there and realize I'm great at this, you know. You know, you often make the mistake of shouting that while you're on stage and in several episodes of Third Rock. That's right.

Well, he's, oh my God, I'm gorgeous. That was my catchphrase. You know, you mentioned John Cleese and I thought that was really interesting because I've talked to him and I've read his writings about comedy and you guys are synonymous in some ways. You're, and I've heard, I don't know if it's true, that you get mistaken for John Cleese sometimes while we're traveling around the world in Europe. Yes.

Absolutely. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone praised me for my performance in a fish called Wanda. I get that, but people think I'm Jamie Lee Curtis. No, but he, the glorious moment was when he came and appeared on Third Rock and he was my rival from, I didn't realize until the end of his first episode with us that he was an alien. Yes.

And there's the classic scene where we're playing golf together, where he takes out an air horn and blows it on my backswing. How great to get to, I mean, but you know, the thing is, he's also, three of us are probably all about the same height. John Cleese may actually be the tallest, I'm not sure, but he's quite tall. And I think it's embracing, tall people often are kind of, we're almost a little embarrassed about it. I was always, when I was a kid, when a teenager and a young man, I've got, you know, very

long limbs and I'm tall and I was super skinny and I fled from that and then realized, you can get laughs with this. And if you think about Dick Van Dyke or you or John Cleese or Jack Tate, yeah, Jack Tate or myself, like we love to, we love to use our bodies in these absurd ways and a tall man acting like a fool is funnier. I don't know why it is, but it is. There was a glorious moment in an episode that featured Elaine Stritch and George Grisard as Jane Curtin's parents, which of course evolves into a parody of who's afraid of

Virginia Wool. And we all ended up in a hot tub and I'm so appalled by their terrible behavior, their awful insults and their arguments and I finally stand up to my full height in a tiny little bright orange Speedo and I say, have you no shame? You know, I was curious about something which is your ability, which can, which really interests me. I've never worked in film. No one wants me to work in film and I never will work in film, but as a real actor, I've

noticed that you have the ability because everyone is always explaining the television is very different from film and I've seen you work in both mediums and, and kill it. And I've seen you be able to, you know, be on a show like Third Rock from the Sun where there's no such thing as too big because that's really the gig and, and, and play different comedy roles like that. And then I see you in the crown playing Winston Churchill, going into it knowing, well, how can John Lithgow play Winston Churchill when Winston Churchill is famously about, I don't know, five, eight, you're six, four, and I watched it. You were Winston Churchill.

I mean, you became Winston Churchill and I completely was down from the first second. I don't understand that ability. You have to have both focal lengths, the big, big, big and then the small, small, small. Clearly you missed Ant-Man. No, I did not. No. Well, you know, I was concerned about that myself and I, I told Stephen Daldry, like during the rehearsal period, are we doing anything about my height?

He says, no, nothing. Yeah. Don't worry. You don't even think about that. And, of course, it was perfectly obvious to a director, there are plenty of ways of making people forget about height with movies. As a matter of fact, just about everybody when they meet me for the first time says, I didn't realize you were so tall. That's all I get.

Of course, you just don't think about it. I mean, people say, when they say that about me being so tall and what a surprise, I wonder, why didn't they notice that Jane Curtin only comes up to my elbow? But they're looking at other things, I guess. TV shrinks you. You've got to fit into that box. Yeah. And so you've been with me, Sona. That's all. That's all people say. Also, I think that most male celebrities tend to be shorter than

they appear on television. And I don't know if that's because they do things to make them look taller. No, it's the rare thing. Like you, me, Jeff Goldblum, there's a list of a cup and then everyone else, and I mean, everyone listening should take this as gospel. Everyone else is five feet three inches tall. I'm always so startled by photographs of the curtain calls of plays I'm in where I'm a full head taller than the next tallest person because I don't think of myself that way. Just this morning, I was walking through a parking garage and I walked underneath a sort

of low hanging sign. Yeah. And then I walked past it and I looked back at that sign and I thought, my God, I'm tall. Yeah. It's like you just, you just, you just forget that. Yeah. And I think maybe that's, surely that's what you're talking about when you're talking about tall comedians. Yeah.

Is there is this funny cognitive dissonance? Oh, I forget. And I often play, my favorite comedic archetype to play is the frightened kind of alabab hope or early Woody Allen, the frightened back on my heels guy who's intimidated by everything around me. And then I'll be playing that in a sketch. I'll be playing that in some improvised interview and then realize that three feet taller than this person and outweigh them by about 150 pounds. And I'm going, it's so sorry to bother, I hope, please, not with the hitting. You know, and people watching it are like, why doesn't he just breathe on the guy?

A great asset. I very much want to talk about, you have, you have brought your latest book and I wanted to make sure I got my time to fully express what an amazing person you are. But that, I think, mission accomplished. And that's, that's me that brought that out of you. And so you owe me completely. You've never been charming on your own. But it wasn't until I breathed life onto you. Winkled it out. Yeah. You came out and you've talked about these on my show with these New York Times

bestsellers, Dumpty and Trumpy Dumpty wanted to crown these. And what I love about these books is that there's clearly been a lot of Trump stirs up high passions on both sides. And you have written these books about Trump and clearly, he's not your favorite politician of all time, but you use a lot of humor and wit to get your point across. And what I really love is that you, you do these illustrations, which are terrific. I mean, you're profoundly talented in many ways, but these, these drawings are, this is who you would hire. If someone else wrote these, they would try and find someone who could draw these caricatures because they're really brilliant.

Why thank you, Colin. And the latest book speaks to me. I know it sounds crazy, but if you want to feel better about where we are now, I suggest you check out John Lithgow's A Confederacy of Dumpties because in a strange way, it's, it reminds you that, yeah, it's bad right now. But do you want to check out some of these other people that we have encountered? Did you remember? You know, you've put your, your, hit the nail on the head in many ways, Conan. I wrote the first two of this trilogy, Dumpty and Dumpty, Dumpty, Dumpty wanted to crown. And

they were kind of shooting fish in a bucket satire going after the crazy cast of characters that Trump hired, surrounded him with. And then gradually, one by one, he turned on all of them, insulted them, shat on them, fired them. And, you know, I was beating a lot of dead horses. A lot of them were gone by the time my books came out. That's right. He would fire them or they would leave before he could get the books out. Exactly. But I mean, there was a sort of point to all that. It was easy satire. I was so tired of dumping on the man and all of the horrible people that he hired. I'd done my job. He was voted out of office. I was entirely responsible for that.

Oh, I think you get, you're a widely accredited fan. But this was a way of saying, just as you say, you think this was bad? Just have a look at these guys. You know, there's one that really echoes in the times now where we all know that statues are coming down left and right, and especially in statues of Confederate greats. Someone I did know about, because I studied the Civil War, and I did know about this Confederate general, Nathan Bedford Forrest. And, you know, he's the first Grand Wizard of the KKK. His troops massacred more than 300 Union soldiers, most of them black. I mean, he was just this,

you know, incredibly horrific character, and there were statues to Nathan Bedford Forrest. And I don't know, I would prefer, I'm happy to read it if you're not prepared to read it, but we have just a little clip here, and it's just so good. His statues and his monuments are disappearing fast. A stern reminder to us all that glory doesn't last. It's echoed in our recent days, despite what winning gives us. Former presidents take note. Infamy outlives us. That's fantastic. You know, and you know what I love about that one? I mean, self-interest drives a lot of the worst crimes. And I'm not just talking about politicians. I see

it in the media, too. And I see it on the left, and I see it on the right. I see people that are, as you say, maybe shooting fish in a barrel or saying these egregious things. And for a little more than, this works for me now. This is paying the bills now. This is going over well with my base. My fans like it, so I'm just going to do it. And people have this shocking disregard for how are people going to think about me when I'm not here? Don't I care about that? Don't I care about what are my grandkids going to say when they know that I blocked this legislation and that legislation and single-handedly tried to redraw the voting maps to keep certain crimes of people from voting? Am I going to be looked

upon kindly later? Why doesn't that matter to people? I know. And the stakes are colossally high when it comes to things like climate change denial or, as you say, suppressing the vote and suborning democracy. You talk about Boss Tweed, who was a character I'm sure people have heard of, but he pretty much controlled a large chunk of American politics through New York. And never elected to office. Never elected to office and was a pretty egregious character. And one of the things that really helped bring him down, which I'm sure is near and dear to your heart, is there's a cartoonist

who's very famous, Thomas Nast, who would do these satirical depictions of people in the media. Back then, all they had was newspapers, but he would put these out there, newspapers and magazines, and people would read them, and it really helped bring down Boss Tweed. If you're up for it, you're such a better reader than I am. I always say yes, as you know. We now introduce the aforesaid cartoonist who brought down the boss like a punctured balloonist. The depictions of Tweed by the great Thomas Nast were scathing, satiric, and destined to last. Nast pictured a slob of false daffy and bulk, a baleful, beady-eyed,

glowering hulk. Tweed frantically raged at his impotent goons. My people can't read, but they see them cartoons. You all still have this great line. Along those lines, this great line, I'll do it because it's very short. You needn't be kindest or cleanest or purist. Just don't ever rankle a caricaturist, which remind me to stay on your good side. John, let's go. You are a treasure. Seriously. And anytime I encounter you anywhere, I'll tell you this. I'm immediately happy. You just have that. You're this big bundle of goodness and talent. You know, I feel...

So I'm very thrilled. I feel exactly the same way about you. Last time my late eyes on you was the Emmys. That's right. I saw you about 10 yards away with about 50 people in between us, and we caught each other's eye, and we both went like this. Yeah. Yeah, we both put our little fingers together. This is audio, so I'll act out what you're doing. No, we acted just... That little Mr. Burns finger. Oh, yeah, it doesn't score.

I was like, there's that big six-foot-four toy that I love running into who delights me. So, hey, John, I can't thank you enough for coming in, and congratulations on your new book. And not saying it's too great. It's the holidays, and this is a hilarious, fantastic stocking stuff, if you ask me. So go out and grab it. And I look forward to running into you very soon. Yes, Conan. Now we're old friends. Yes. Old friends who are just starting to realize...

No, we've always been old friends. Now we're new friends. Now we're new friends. Yes. Now we're BFF friends. Let's not get crazy. All right, thank you very much, John. I knew this would be great, John. It was. Well, we're all three officially back on the podcast. After four or five babies, I forget, let's do a state of the podcast and see how things are going. Oh, I wish to say that the state of the podcast is strong. I'm very happy that we are reunited.

If I watched or paid attention to more Marvel movies, I would know that this is like those gems that are all separated, that the Avengers have to go find, and then they put them together and it's in a glove or something. The Thanos glove? Yeah. What about the three stones from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom that have to be... No, let's stick with Thanos. We need to... There's three of us.

Yeah. Let's keep the young kids interested. I know there's just five. Infinity stones. Okay. The Infinity Stones. Yes. And I feel like there were three Infinity Stones in a podcasting glove that was invincible and could really rule the universe. Blay, feel free to jump in if I'm getting anything wrong because I know that you know this stuff cold. I was just going to say, you mentioned two things that when put together are supposed to destroy the universe. So I'm not sure what that's saying.

Ah, well, that fits. I know. I'm exactly, that's exactly what I meant. Aaron, I don't see what the conflict is here. There was a period where peace and serenity reigned when it was just me and everyone, man, we saw the comments were through the roof and everyone was like, oh, yay. And then the Infinity Stones of Matt Gorley and Son of Sessian were rejoined and the universe has been destroyed as we know it. And no, it's, it's great. That analogy aside, which I apparently, just to make that analogy, I think I now owe Marvel $1.4 million just to make the analogy. But I'm really glad to have you guys back. It's, it's, and I know that you came back

Matt for the, for the live show. That's right. Yeah. Because we're not actually the three of us in the same room right now. Sona has me watching her twins right now. Sona doesn't need anyone else watching her twins because unlike you, Matt, Sona has an Armenian family that provides it's 600 Armenian people providing constant care for those children. And anytime I call, I swear to God, she's in a hot tub and she's, you know, saying, what, what kids? Oh, right. Yeah. Those things that my parents and my husband's parents hold on to. And then those other people we know. Yeah. So, so how are

you faring, Matt? Because I know that Sona hasn't even seen her children. How are you holding up? I'm pretty good. I think we're six weeks out now. So things are just starting to find a groove and we're just starting to get a little bit of sleep. I'm not quite there yet. And Amanda was truly incredible. I've never seen anything like it, but we're good. We're very happy and the little one is, it's life changing. It's incredible. She's precious. That's nice. Can I just point out, though, that everybody, every guy always says, oh, my God, my wife. I am aware of that. And she's done such an amazing job.

Because we do a lot. We do a lot. You know what? When I was saying, I'm just going to say, I think my wife could have stepped it up a bit. Oh, wow. I do. I'm, frankly, I do. I, I think, I was, you know, I'm a tough grader. I'm not one of these, my wife, my wife. I think Liza could have, you know, I think she, a solid C plus. No. Okay. I stick to this because when I was in that delivery room and I always thought I'll kind of be by her head holding her hand or at the very least be down at that demilitarized zone halfway point. But the doctor put me to work and I was down there with the doctor holding a leg and I'll tell you what I saw. I have never been the same kind of person since.

Aw, you poor thing. No, I'm not saying poor me. I'm saying what I saw. Okay, I thought you were like, look at how much I did. No, I did nothing. I'm sorry. I got very, I'm saying that. I understand that. You're still talking. That's why I'm saying she truly was incredible because I saw what she went through and it was unbelievable.

I, so funny you had that reaction. I saw that and I said, well, that was pretty, that's pretty amazing. But, and then quickly I went back to, you know, I've got to judge you on your performance now in this, in this next hour, you know, and then this next hour after that, you know what I mean? You can only get so much credit for passing a human baby through a very small opening. And then I think you got to move on. Just her dealing with you alone. Yeah. That already is like, oh my God.

Can you imagine? Were you doing bits? Oh, the bits. Oh, I had such good bits. Oh, you suck. I would have killed you. I made, I made, I remembered I had the obstetrician just in stitches, literally. And that's no pun or anything. He was just howling.

No. Man, I was killing it in that room. High-fiving yourself. Yeah. Oh my God. And then, yeah. And then, yeah, it's no coincidence that my, my, my daughter's first words when she looked at me were empty shell. Your daughter's first words were, and that's time.

And wrap it up. Wrap it up. No, she looked at me and she pointed and she said, empty shell. I was like, no, Dada. And she went, nothing inside. And I said, no, Dada, Daddy. And she said, more sad than funny. And I said, hey, come on, it's Dada, Dada. And she said, a hole that can never be filled. I said, you are so eloquent. These are such eloquent first words, but I wish it was just Dada.

Yeah. Yeah. She hit the nail on the head. I guess. She did. Oh my God. A lot of therapy will fix this damage. It feels like it goes back millennia. I was like, can you just say, Daddy?

To this day, she never has. Yeah. When she was three, she wrote a dissertation, a crippled father, the emotional conundrum that is Conan O'Brien. It was beautifully written and it got printed by the New England Journal of Medicine. Oh, good. Good for her. A special shout out to David Hopping, who filled in for me first and then for Mr. Matt Gorley, because he did such a great job.

Yes. It's an intimidating space. And he did a fantastic job. And he, you know, he covered for me in terms of administrative work for you. And he did such a great job that I told him just keep going, even when I got back. Well, I will say this about David Hopping. First of all, no learning curve at all. He came in, he hit the mic, and he has his own podcast. Yes, he does. Back to the best podcast. Can we plug it? Yes. Back to the best is a podcast that David does that I think goes back to the shows that

really influenced him. Curiously, I'm not in there. But his, and he does this podcast and it's really great. Anyway, he hit the mic. He's very funny. He's very quick-witted. He had his own voice. Immediately, I'm like, Sona who, you know what I mean? Oh. I mean, in a bad way. I mean, in a way that's bad for you, but in a way that's good for David and for me. And so, David, you know, David, we're going to keep him around. He'll jump in every now and then because he's such a funny presence and did such a good job. So Maya, thanks to David Hopping, also is an assistant killer. I mean, I go places and

I look down at my phone and when I'm supposed to be at the airport, it says, this is the name of your flight. This is what gate you're supposed to go to. And I said, how could this be on my phone? Sona never put this on my phone. She'd always wait till I called her from the airport and said, hey, what flight am I? She'd be like, yeah, rich host doesn't know how to find his flight or gate. Well, David did none of that. So thank you, David. Breathing exercises help me deal. We should also thank Brett for the stand-in production and editing. Brett did an amazing job. He's the best. Again, Brett, thank you for everything that you did while you, you stepped out and seamlessly, as though Matt had never been

here. Incredible. The way. I wouldn't go that far, but that, yeah. I guess this was supposed to have a different tone. I'm turning this into a, wow, I didn't miss you guys. Don't you have to go on paternity leave soon or something? Maybe you should also take some time off. I want to spend, I want to take time off to hang out with your, with your twins. Yeah. Because those kids look like they have a good sense of humor and I get some good chuckles. You want to, you want to hang out with them because you want the audience that'll laugh. Yes. He's going to just feed them gassy food so they get gassy and smile and laugh and he'll just sit there and do bits and they don't even know what it is.

Hey, if that worked for audiences, I'd have all audiences they were loading into a show fed a giant can of beans, unbaked beans so that they have extra gas. No, I, on a sincere note, and I am capable of it, Matt Corley, great to have you back. Good to be back. You're, you're a terrific, what you do. I'm lucky to have you. Sona, you know, I love you despite all the stuff we do on the air. Jokes about the schedule, which. Well, that wasn't a joke. And they do it off the air too. It's not just on the air. Yeah, terrible. So not a good assistant, but a good person who I care for. Okay. Um, I know you'd take a bullet for me. Well, you'd forget to. Oh, she'd shoot the bullet. I would. She'd shoot

the bullet. She'd take a bullet out of a pocket, put it in a gun. She would accept, she'd take a bullet from someone else, put it in a gun and shoot me. So yes, you would take a bullet for me. And then, uh, David Hopping, our thanks to you and Brad and, you know, just thanks to everybody for all you do. Geez. I wonder why I get some things around here. Thanks, dad. Taking the wind out of it. I give and I take away. Really? No one does it better than you. Yup. That's true. What were we talking about? About complimenting and at the same time, just deflating it at the same time. I thought you meant comedic artistry and elevating humanity. Yeah, no. And elevating humanity. Yup. Thank you, Sona. Well, you

heard it from her. Geez. That's all the time for now. Gotta run. Yeah, let's wrap it up because that'll make it true. I hate it. We're back. Yeah. Conan O'Brien needs a friend. With Conan O'Brien, Sona Mufsesian and Matt Gorely. Produced by me, Matt Gorely. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solotarov and Jeff Ross at Team Cocoa and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Year Wolf. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering by Will Bekton. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista and Brick Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you

might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Cocoa Hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. This has been a Team Cocoa Production in association with EWOLF.