Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Justice Sonia Sotomayor

Episode Date: February 2, 2022

Justice Sonia Sotomayor feels intimidated about being Conan O’Brien’s friend.  Justice Sotomayor sits down with Conan to discuss the foundations of Supreme Court collegiality, her new book Just Help! How to Build a Better World, reacting to the news of Justice Breyer’s retirement, and teaching kids the importance of working together. Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone]. For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.

Hi, my name is Sonia Sotomayor, and I feel intimidated about being Conan O'Brien's friend. Okay, well, I'm not buying that for one second. You are a justice of the Supreme Court. I don't intimidate anybody. Pigeons don't scatter. When I flat my arms and run at pigeons, they stand there and say, we know who you are and we don't care. No, I live in New York, and I know pigeons scatter whenever you walk through them, even for Conan O'Brien. Even for Conan O'Brien. Thank you, Justice Sotomayor. I appreciate that. Hey, Conan O'Brien here. Welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. This is a little unusual for us.

Usually, we, of course, do our interviews, our important interviews, but there's a lot of foolishness and messing around included in those programs. This can be a little different because this is a very important guest, and we wanted to make sure that we got this interview to you right away. We're doing that now. This is not dropping, as the kids say at the normal time, but I think you'll understand why. I'm very excited and honored that our guest is with us today. She is a Supreme Court Justice nominated by President Barack Obama in 2009. She is the third woman to hold the position and the first woman of color on the court. She's also a best-selling author. Her latest children's book, Just Help, How to Build a Better World, is out now, and I'm

delighted. Justice Sotomayor, thank you for being here. So I did a little bit of research on you, and I understand for your senior thesis, you wrote something called, let me see if I can find it. Entitled, Literary Progeria in the works of William Faulkner and Flannery O'Connor. Can you tell me what kind of normal person writes a thesis like that? You are really very smart. Well, have you read the thesis? No, I didn't read the thesis. Of course, you didn't read the thesis. It trails off. I can't believe that you looked up my thesis in college. I did write a thesis. I was a History and Literature major. I didn't know that comedy was going to work, so I thought I better

at least try in school, and I wrote that thesis. It did okay. It did all right. I'm very happy when this whole COVID thing is over. I'd be very happy to take you out to dinner, and we could discuss my thesis at great length. I promise you I'll read it before it then, and I will have something to say. Spoken like someone who's never going to take me up on that date. It doesn't usually go well when you say, hey, let's get together and read my college thesis. Well, first of all, this is a first for me. I have never spoken with a Supreme Court justice. I've had the pleasure of meeting presidents, performing for royalty. I've checked so many

boxes in my long and silly career, but you are the first Supreme Court justice I've ever spoken to, and it's a real honor to speak with you, and there's much to discuss, and I'm just thrilled that you're able to do this, and frankly, I think this is a very bad use of your time. Well, not for me. There's a lot of decisions that people are waiting on. There's a lot to do, and the idea that you might have said to the other justices, everybody hold up. I need to go talk to Conan O'Brien. It feels like maybe a poor decision. That's all I'm going to say. Well, I know some of them think I've made other poor decisions. All right. Well, we won't name names. We're not going to get into that.

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about a story that I heard about you that I didn't seem like it could possibly be true, but this goes back to a time when you were working for a law firm in New York City, and you were trying to bring to justice people that were counterfeiting goods. I heard this story that the group of people that were doing this, the perpetrators were in Chinatown, and it looked like they might get away, and that you jumped on a motorcycle and gave chase. Is that true? Well, the essence of the story is true. It wasn't in Chinatown. It was a chase stadium. Okay. That's the part that's not that important. The important part is Justice Sotomayor jumping

on a motorcycle and giving chase to bad guys. Yeah. It wasn't one of the sanest things I've ever done. When we cornered the van on a particular street, and the van turned around and started to come towards us, me on the back of the motorcycle, and I said to the kid who was driving the motorcycle, he wasn't quite a kid. He was old enough to drive a motorcycle, but he was someone who was hired as part of my private investigator team. Don't move. He won't hit us. After the truck mounted the sidewalk to avoid hitting us and passed us, nevertheless, I turned around to him and said, next time, don't listen to me. That was a little insane. Okay. That was a little insane. Would you... That's not something that would happen today. I just want to clarify.

Well, I think my security force who follows me around would probably not let me do it today. Right. If you saw a crime being committed today, you, Justice Sotomayor, you would not jump on the back of a Kawasaki motorcycle, fire it up, and give chase, wearing your traditional road. Oh, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. You would not. You would not. I would not do that. Okay. I'm just writing that down. I was quite aware of your past. You are such an impressive person, and your story is so inspirational for so many reasons, and it's very humbling to think of all the ways in which you have made your way in life, and you have such a great sense of humor, and I think sense of fun. It really is impressive to

me when I think about your mother, her story coming to this country in 1944, I believe, and showing up in, was it Georgia? That she made her way to Georgia and spoke very little English. She came from a very, I think, a rural, I imagine, poorer area of Puerto Rico, and came to this country without much, and then her daughter becomes a Supreme Court Justice. I think that's one of those stories that I don't care what your politics are. That makes me just so proud of this country. Thank you, Conan. I am indebted my whole life to my mother, who is a greater woman than I will ever be. As you know, I lost her last July, and it's been one of the greatest sorrows of my life, but she left me with so many life lessons, and I am who I am because of her, but hers is

the American's dream. She came here with nothing, literally nothing. She joined the military to escape crushing poverty in Puerto Rico at the time, and she made a life for herself and her two children. And as you know, I am a Supreme Court Justice. My brother's a doctor in Syracuse, New York. We've done everything that she hoped could happen for her family here in America. And I was raised very Catholic, and so I'll use the word blessing. I think it's a blessing that she got to see all of this unfold. I'm sorry for your loss and that she passed, but the real blessing is that she saw what you achieved. And I have to imagine, from her perspective, I know that she lost her husband, your father, when you were very young, plus you were quite sick as a child

and had juvenile diabetes and needed constant injections. And this is, you know, this is, I mean, still that's a terrible disease, but dealing with that back then in her circumstances, you dealing with it, just the hurdles are unimaginable. We had challenges to put it mildly. I will say something. I was a product of my mother, but you're a product of your mother, who was an extraordinary lady as well. She is. You know, I can't believe you know about my mom. I can't believe you didn't. No guest I talked to has done more research than you on me. Well, my mother on yourself shares something in common, which is my mother who was born Ruth Reardon, grew up in Worcester,

Massachusetts, and her father, I had the honor of talking to, of all people, President Obama about this not too long ago. He was inquiring about my parents and my mother grew up in Worcester, Massachusetts, and her father directed traffic in downtown Worcester and made, I think, $55 a week, and she worked very hard and she got a full scholarship to Vassar and got through on a full scholarship. Her parents had not been able to go to college, obviously, and then she was one of the early women to go to be accepted to and go on a full scholarship to Yale Law School and graduated in 1956, and she has told me incredible stories of what it was like to be a woman in the 50s, not allowed to die in with the other men, you know, told, sit out here at this card table

and you can have a meal out here while we other graduates or members of this law firm go inside and have dinner because it's men only in there. She went all through that and, you know, I think of when I was reading up about you and thinking these are just monumental achievements for anyone to contemplate today, but for you to go to Princeton and then to Yale at the time that you did and given everything that you had to overcome is just stunning, stunning to me. Well, I take two things you said and just want to correct them. The first is diabetes is not a disease. It's a condition. And people don't really understand the difference between the two, but it's a condition of my body. I just don't make insulin the way other people do.

And secondly, I live with diabetes. It's a part of me, but I live with it, not because of it or in spite of it. And so I never thought of myself as a sickly child. It annoyed me to no end when I had a sugar low when I was a child and everybody treated me as if I were really sick. But a lot of us with conditions of wide variety don't perceive ourselves as sick. We're different. Right. And we have different conditions, but we think of them as just part of who we are. And it's strange to say I take pride in the fact that not despite of, but with all of the challenges I've had, I still come out the other end in a better place than a lot of other people. Well, I think when I review your story, your history, that it's not even, and I should rephrase

it, it's not despite of these things. It seems that there are times in your career, in your life where these things have almost fueled you. Is that possible? Where there's a defiance. There's a when you got to Princeton, which is a stunning achievement. That's enough for most people in life to get into Princeton and then to achieve that but say, no, I feel that my language skills aren't quite what they should be. And you decided that you were going to take it upon yourself to master your ability to speak and write in English as well or better than anyone else. It takes perseverance. It takes commitment and hard work, but those are all qualities everyone is capable of. But I think you're right that sometimes hardship in life brings out

this sense of, well, you're not going to beat me. I'm going to get up and do it. And I have felt that way virtually my entire life. I don't know. I think you may have read my book because obviously you know a lot about me, but I talked about getting into fights in the school grounds or projects where I lived and often to defend my poor brother, who was a bit of a scary cat back then. This is an area where we're different. Whenever one of my younger sisters and my younger brother were ever in trouble, I helped the gang fight them. And let me tell you, it's not a bad decision. You earn points with the bullies and you get a few kicks in at your sibling. I'm just saying that was another way to go. It was another way to go, but I got my licks in with my brother

at home. When I got him home, then I would beat him up for the beating I took. As long as a sibling is beaten, I'm happy. That's all I care about. But I think you would agree that there's something about, I don't know, feeling... So many people look at me now, this incredible Adonis, this athlete. Sonia, there's no reason to laugh. You should be saying, yes, yes. But they assume that I always had it easy. But as hard as it is for you to believe, I was bullied when I was a child because I had a very weird name, which I still have, and red hair and freckles. And I was bullied by people. And my brothers would join in with those bullies and hit me. I was going to say, you're one of five, so where are you in that?

I'm actually one of six. One of six? Yeah. But there's one of them I don't like, so I always say one of five. No. I'm one of six. I am a third from the top. Yeah, fourth from the bottom. So I felt lost in this sea of round-faced, freckled Irish people, and I felt anonymous. And so what you're seeing right now is a sick extension of my need to make my way in the world. As a child, they said, I'm going to have a podcast one day, and I'm going to talk to a famous Supreme Court justice. And they said, what's a podcast? And then they kept hitting me. But we can get back to that. I remember you talking about this during your confirmation hearings that you were very interested in growing up in Nancy Drew's stories,

and then you started watching Perry Mason on television, which was part of the inspiration for why you wanted to get involved in justice. And one of the questions I haven't heard you ask is, that was an interest of yours when you were very young. Now as an adult, are there crime shows that you still watch? Do you watch any of the crime shows now? Are there any shows? I mean, this is something that you were passionate about as a kid. Have you checked out a matlock back in the day or any of the CSI shows? I've seen one or two episodes of almost all of them. But I'm not much of a TV watcher. I watch the news a lot. COVID has helped me see some movies. But I'm not much of a TV

watcher. So I watch very few series. I have lately taken to liking some of the English crime shows. Oh, they're terrific. They're wonderful. Is there any in particular that you that you like? I saw a mini series called Unforgiven, which was really quite riveting. And I enjoyed that tremendously. That's the most recent one I watched. Unforgiven. Okay, I have to check that out. Would you be interested in doing a podcast with me where we just talk about TV shows people should be watching? Well, since I've hardly watched them, it would not be terribly interesting. We're talking about a very short weekly podcast where you basically always say, I still haven't gotten around to seeing anything, but check out the Unforgiven,

and then that's the end of the podcast. That's the end of it. I might agree to do that. And then I'll let you tell me the story. I love story telling. I know that it is your professional duty to be as impartial as possible, but I'm going to give you a hypothetical that I appear before the Supreme Court to plead a case, to plead. And you are listening to me. And as a lifelong Yankees fan, you find out shortly before you take the bench that I'm from Boston and that I am a lifelong Red Sox fan. Would you, Justice Sormayor, be able to be impartial? Or do you think it would weigh your decision about my case in some way if you knew I really hated the Yankees and loved the Boston Red Sox?

You're giving me the toughest case I've ever had. I love your honesty. I think I would spend several nights in jail, even though that's usually not what happens when someone argues a case. Yeah, I thank you. Thank you for being that honest about it. I appreciate it. I didn't want to talk about something that is quite, it's actually fascinating to me. You are obviously have this very rare perspective of being on the Supreme Court, a Justice of Supreme Court, and so you're part of that world. And from the outside, the news is constantly talking about the divisions on the court, the disagreements on the court,

and people, as you know, get very emotional, very worked up about it. But what fascinates me is that you are people that human beings that go to work every day together, and you have to make it work the way everyone does when they go to their job. And I find that to be one of the things that you might have the most interesting insight on, which is, for example, I've heard that Justice Scalia and Justice Ginsburg could not have had, couldn't be more ideologically opposite in some ways, but they were very good friends. And that is, I think, the part of the Supreme Court that intrigues me the most at this moment when our country is so divided, is if you could talk a little bit about how you and the other Justices work together, eat

together sometimes, and go about your task of making these decisions together as humans who have to do that as part of your job. Conan, the collegiality that my current court experiences, and then when I say current, not just since I've joined it, but I would say in the last 20 odd years, has not always been historically true. There were periods of time in Supreme Court history where the Justices did not get along, and many in which they didn't even want to be in the same room with each other, were forced to be for court sessions or for conferences, but who wouldn't even eat lunch together. It's a more modern agreement among all of us, that that kind of existence is not what we wanted to choose to be. Not that kind

of institution. My colleague, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in a conversation we were having as a group one day, someone had asked, when did that change? When did the court become what it is today more collegial? Her response was when women came to the court. In part, she may have been right when Sandra Day O'Connor joined the court in 1980. She reinstituted the tradition of having lunch together after every court argument and every court conference. I understand from my colleagues, because she had already left the court when I came aboard, but from my colleagues who remained, that if you didn't show up at those court lunches regularly, she would come down to your office, sit in the chair opposite you and say, no, you can't do that. You have to come

and actually grab you by the arm and drag you to the lunch. But I think among, I say among, because there were a number of people who participated in changing the court. She, Chief Justice Rehnquist, the justices that followed after them, all of them including the current Justice, Chief Justice Roberts, do put a premium on this question of us having respect for each other. For me, it's easy to do, and I think for many others on the court, because we really do respect each other, not just our intellects. And we're, you know, we respect that each of us is smart, but more importantly, that we're each and every one of us passionate about the same things. We're passionate about the Constitution. We're passionate about

this country. We're passionate about its system of government. We're passionate about keeping it alive, the traditions of the court and the traditions of the country. And we may disagree on what's the best answer to uphold all of those things, but we all agree that we each want to do it. And I think that makes us respect that our differences of opinion don't diminish from our commitment to this country. And it makes it easier. Yeah. First of all, I love to hear that. And it makes so many questions spring to mind. I think, first of all, mentioning that Senator Day O'Connor, Justice Senator Day O'Connor, may have reintroduced this idea if we need to do this together. And part of me thinks that makes complete sense that a woman would come on the court and be the first

and insist that we need to figure some things out the way people have always figured things out, which is we don't always agree, but we need to work together. And I think that in a way makes a kind of sense to me. Well, one could read a little too much and thinking that it was just because she was a woman. I think it might have helped some that she was a woman. But I think but I think it may have helped more that you have to remember she was in politics before she was in touch. That's right. And she was a very successful politician in Arizona. And so I suspect that gathering the herd in the legislature was more difficult than gathering the herd among Supreme Court justices. But I do think those skills

are likely to have helped her a great deal on the court. I also would think that you know, right now, as you're aware, as we're all too aware, it's a scary time in this country. And I'm someone who loves to remind everyone I work with, especially young people, that we've been through a lot of scary things before in this country. If you look at the history of it, and we've had to survive a lot of turmoil. But right now, there are a lot of Americans who are looking at someone who thinks differently from them as others. And they don't need to interact with them. They can say cruel things about them online. They can demean them in, you know, Facebook posts. But they don't really have to deal with them, whereas you belong to this body that needs to

meet. You need to meet and you see each other as people. And I think that for many Americans, when they found out that Justice Scalia and Justice Ginsburg were close, they didn't understand because it's so become customary in this country to just dismiss someone who disagrees with you or has a different philosophy. But I would think it would be essential to the working of the court for the justices to almost be an example of how we can do this. We have to talk to each other because we have to reach a decision. We can disagree with each other. We have majority opinions and dissents. We even have concurrences where someone agrees with the majority's thinking, but a part of its thinking, but we'll reach a result in a different

way. But because we're forced to interact, it helps because in every single case we hear, except the few where someone's recused or excused from the case because of a conflict, we must work together. It's a lot easier to work with people whose good qualities you can admire and whose differences you can engage passionately. If you read our writing, we're all, whether you're on the winning side or the dissenting side of a case, we're very passionate about how we write, but we can still be human beings with one another. I do wish the country would take more note of that, and I wish more people would remember that despite the differences in views, people are still the same on some fundamental qualities. Justice Scalia and Justice

Ginsburg in part were such close friends because they both love the opera. They were absolutely opera buffs. They went to the opera together constantly. There are walk-ons that appear in operas, and both of them would play big parts in operas through the years. They got such joy from doing that together. My colleague, Nina Scalia, loved good food. Justice Ginsburg, despite her slight physique, countered to my colleague, Justice Scalia, they both loved great food. They had many things sit together that they enjoyed so much. It's the same with how I feel with my colleagues on the court right now. There are many whose views are vastly different than mine, who I have a wonderful relationship with because we can smile and joke and talk about

things we enjoy together. Do you have a connection with any of the other justices about, say, sports or anything like that that connects you even if you ideologically don't agree? Well, not really. Justice Pryor is in the same camp you are. I love him dearly, but he's a bit of a Bostonian. We don't share that commonality. There's no such thing as a bit of a Bostonian, by the way. You're not just a tad Bostonian. You are, or you are not. I see. Okay, so he's out. No, I love him. He's wonderful. No, I have a relationship virtually. I would say with all of my colleagues and for different reasons and for different things that we enjoy together.

One of the people that many would be surprised to learn, Sam Alito loves jazz. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. He's a real jazz aficionado. I've been to jazz performances in Washington, D.C., where I've been told that he's made an appearance before I have, often. So my colleagues enjoy a variety of different things. And of course, we all know Neil Gorsuch loves the band Fish and follows them everywhere. He's constantly, you can see him always at the center of the crowd spinning wildly, wearing a tie-dye shirt and just screaming at the top of his lungs. And I knew that that's something that has bonded both of you together.

I ride the station every bicycle he rides a real one. You know, when you talk about these meals that you have together, where are they? Are they at the Supreme Court? Is there a place that you go or do you sometimes go to, you know, I don't know, some kind of other restaurant? Do you have a secret place that you go? No, I mean, we do have a lunch room for the justices in the Supreme Court. We meet there. Everybody arranges their own lunch. I bring my lunch every day. A number of the justices bring lunches from home. And some justices bring or buy lunches at the at the courthouse cafeteria. Is the food pretty good at the Supreme Court?

I think we understand. You just answered the question for me. Well, no, no, no. Let me stop. Okay. We have a new purveyor that started in the fall. And it's a Starbucks, I guess, franchise of some sort. Okay. I don't know why this is making me laugh so much. Yeah. So I bring my food so I can't really comment on something that I don't enjoy there. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, I very, very well handled. I appreciate that. I appreciate that answer. But I do like that you get together and eat. And you mentioned decisions. Obviously, there's majority opinion. And if so, if you're on the

quote winning side, you get to write that. And that must be very nice. But I fear I sometimes that it might be more fun to write a dissent. Because when you write a dissent, a little bit of your personal opinion can sneak out. And sometimes they can even be, I'm not talking about you, but just in general, they can be a little sarcastic. They can be a little snarky. It might be a little fun to write a dissent. Is that true? Absolutely. Oh, good. When you write for the court, you have to get four other votes. So you have to write in a way not to antagonize anyone. So they walk away from your opinion. Right. But when you write a dissent, you can write in your own voice.

Most people will read my majority opinions and compare them to my dissents and they can see a vast difference. Because there's a difference of purpose for each. And a dissent is just that. It's my voice on the other side got it wrong. And so it's easier to use your own voice. No, I have found that in my family, but my wife, my two children and myself, my two teenage children, I'm often the loser. My wife is usually writing. She's usually writing the majority opinion. My children line up with her. But I really love the dissent because I get to say, OK, all right, you know, I pitched a giant screen television at the foot of the stairs. Nobody else wanted it. And then I get to be,

you know, I get to be sarcastic and I get to I really get to make a meal out of it. And so I may I have a lot of I lose constantly. But my dissenting opinions are filled with barbs and lots of fun. Well, I don't quite feel the same way. I still wanted to win. Yes. Oh, trust me, I still want that. I want a widescreen TV at the at the very foot of our stairs so so I can watch TV as I walk down the stairs. I'm passionate about that. I believe in that more than you believe in the Constitution. But I have lost and I must. So all I have is my dissenting opinion. That's all I have. Well, all I can say is I'm glad your wife and children want it. Well, that's not going to help me going forward. You know, I know that something that's

very relatable for you in your job. And as hard as that is to say about a Supreme Court justice is that like most Americans, you've been since COVID since COVID reared its head two years now, you've been working on zoom. And I am fascinated by, you know, your perspective on being a because all of us share in the frustration of zoom. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing that's saving our lives in a lot of ways and keeping businesses going during this time. But it's also quite, it's a very different way to work. And how have you found being a Supreme Court justice on zoom? How does that has that worked for you? And what are the frustrations and what are the ways in which it actually works out all right? Well, we didn't work on zoom in my court. We've worked by

telephone. Oh, and so the first year of COVID or the first court year of COVID, we did all of our court appearances by telephone. Oh, I just assumed you were on zoom, like everyone else. That's on me. I apologize. I am ill prepared with my case. And I apologize. No, no, no, no. Remember, where there's nine of us and and nine of us in different places. So we proceeded by telephone. The court is now back in session and my colleagues are in court. I've been participating by telephone and from my office. So I'm in the building, but I'm participating by telephone. There is, and I thought this as a judge when I was on the lower courts, when you're with people, and you can see easily the expressions on their face, their sort of body language,

a manner in which they deliver what they're saying. It tells you a lot about, in my case, what they might be thinking and the arguments that they're more passionate about or less passionate about. And so you do miss, I think, quite a bit, not being in person. No, I mean, human level. I have participated as I am with you on the podcast and in zoom, like, yes, you are, you are zooming in right now. Yes, right. And I have done, I've taught many classes this way. I really miss seeing the students. As you know, and one of the reasons I'm here, I've launched a book in the last couple of weeks. And what I really miss about my book tour is seeing the children and getting hugs from them and actually walking up to them and talking to them so they understand

I'm talking to them. Now, you can do a little bit of that on zoom, but it's not the same. It's not the same. I really not the same thing. I am so totally missing that aspect of my book tour. You know, appearing on television and things like that I can do on zoom easily, but the audience and interacting with them gives you a different kind of energy. I would think, and this, you know, speaks to your book. This is a children's book, and you've written several, and it's called Just Help, How to Build a Better World. And it's really a lovely children's book. But I understand what you're saying. When I read this book, I thought, if you get to go out and talk to groups of children about this book, there's

nothing more powerful than them seeing you in person. And I would think young boys and girls seeing you and thinking this is a Supreme Court justice. And if I can see her and she can talk to me and I can get a hug from her, what could I achieve if I'm in the same room with her right now and she's talking to me and seems to care about me, that would be invaluable. And some of that is going to get lost a little bit on zoom. It's hard to duplicate that. It is. I was privileged not so long ago of doing a zoom with my illustrator, not on this book, but on my prior book, just ask be different, be brave, be you. My illustrator Rafael Lopez lives in Fresno, and he arranged a zoom with 10,000 Fresno children. Now, I only got to see a handful of

them. And at one point I could, and it was wonderful to see that handful. But I really, one of the reasons for me to write books is just for the thing you're talking about. The fact that kids can see and I can talk to them and tell them a little bit about my story and tell them how much it was just like that. Well, you know, the fact that I'm where I am, I hope gives them hope. The book is written, I mean, obviously, it is you, you're using your mom is your mom and you, and it's, and so this is very personal for you. Your, your mom is part of the book. And, and a young you is part of the book. And then it takes place in the current times. But that feels like it must be a nice way to, to bring your mom into the story and communicate that

relationship to anyone who reads the book. Well, I'm hoping just help shows children the power they have to change the world. Because all of the examples I use here are ways in which they can help others. And being a child, you have an enormous power to change things. But I'm also hoping that their parents who read the book with them, will see how much parents are an integral part of the story that I'm telling here. Parents do set an example, my mother said, an example of service for me. And I'm in the book attempting to have parents see themselves and the role they can play in working together with their children to create a better community for themselves. The, I think what's first of all, I want to the illustrations, by the way,

it's by Angela Dominguez. She's wonderful. The illustrations are just beautiful. And it's interesting because I was going to point out that I've never attempted it. But I think in some ways, a children's book is much harder to write than, you know, many people can, they can knock off their, or, you know, write their personal story, or, or they can grind out or knock off a novel. And yes, those things are difficult in their own way. But a children's story, I think is, it's a very specific kind of writing. And there's a certain kind of discipline you have to follow if you're going to really communicate with children. Well, without question, it is. You need first to have a limited number of words, especially for a young reader's book, which this

is, it's, I think the maximum is 1900 or 1800 or 1900 words. So that it's also, that's my maximum as well. I just want you to know that that's what I can handle. But each page has to communicate a thought that a child can understand. So it's not just the use of the words, but the painting of pictures in a child's mind. They're seeing a picture, but words have different impacts. And so you, I struggle when I write this book with every single word that's being used. And sometimes I go back and forth with my editor, or the people who are reading the book, and we have long discussions about what's the best word for this, and what's the word that children will actually associate with themselves with.

And that's not as easy as you think. I mean, I wrote, I wrote my memoir, which was obviously an adult book. In some ways that was easier. I did a lot of sort of storytelling in that book. And you have more pages and you can use more words and you don't have to be nearly as disciplined as you have to be for a children's book. Well, the big question I have to ask you, and obviously we can just talk about it in general terms, is that one of your colleagues, Justice Stephen Breyer, is retiring. And there's, it's been a huge news story. And President Biden has said he's committed to nominating a black woman to fill that position. And I'm curious, is this, is this something that you saw coming? Is

this something that you felt was in the works that this would probably happen? Were you surprised to hear this news? Which part of it that my colleague was retiring? Well, yes, the whole, we'll take it in pieces. Yes, you're right. And again, you're taking apart my mind. And I'm going to think twice before I try and prosecute a case in front of the Supreme Court. Yes, my first, my first question is, did you know that Justice Breyer would be retiring? I did not know. You did not know. There's been quite a bit of talk about whether he should or should not retire. I have a great deal of respect for my colleague and knew that he would come to the decision that was right for him. Yeah. Did I anticipate when it would happen or whether it would happen? I didn't. But I guess

the best thing to say is I wasn't surprised. He's been on the court nearly 30 years. Yeah. And he served as a court of appeals judge for 12 or 14 years before that. So long time to be doing one thing. And he's very vibrant. And he is a man of so many different interests. It does not take me back at all or surprise me that he would be interested in pursuing other things now. And President Biden says he is committed to nominating a black woman. Well, he made that promise during the campaign. Yes, during the campaign. And I assumed, well, I shouldn't say that. I don't know. It was surprising because it's rare that candidates make commitments to the kind. Well, that's not true either. Let me take that back.

Other candidates have basically said things like, I'm going to appoint the justice like, just like that one or just like this one. And so candidates do say things. And I assumed that he would confirm or not that decision at some point. And so it didn't surprise me either that he would say he was committed to the route he had previously announced. Is there any sort of ceremony? I know this, I'm sure a ceremony, but and maybe you're not allowed to say, but any tradition of how you greet a new justice, you know, is there any hazing? Are there any practical jokes? Is there anything that's done? You don't do practical jokes. There are certain traditions. The first one is that when someone's nominated, the justice who sit don't typically reach out to the nominee.

I presume that might be different if you're very close friends with them. But if you only know them somewhat in passing, the tradition is not to reach out to them until after the confirmation process. And after the Senate confirmed me, I received calls from almost all of my then colleagues, our colleagues to be. The first was from the Chief Judge and then other calls followed. How justice is welcome you to the court varies among the justices. So when I came aboard, for example, Justice Stevens and Justice O'Connor came to visit me. And that was wonderful. When Justice Barrett came to the court, it was COVID. So I couldn't just walk over to her office and say hello. But I did shortly thereafter. People call you, people send you notes. That's

what Justice Ginsburg did the first day I arrived. There was a note on my desk from her. And it was very sweet welcoming me aboard and giving me a copy of her bench book, of her chamber's book, which basically describes how she runs her office. And it was invaluable for a new justice starting out. So people have different ways of welcoming each justice, but they will reach out in one way or another, either with a call or with a visit. Now, I probably shouldn't, this is the kind of thing I'd be obsessed with. But if Justice Steven Breyer has been there, obviously, quite a bit longer, he must have a really nice office. That office is now being vacated. Do you get to, do you get to move to that office? Do you get that office? I bet he's got a really good one.

Everyone except the chief. The chief has an office that's designated just for the chief. But then they go down from the top of the seniority list, and they each ask each justice in turn, whether they want to move. I like Justice Breyer's office, but I love mine more. So, in fact, just they have gone to the predecessor justices and asked me whether they wanted to move. And I said no. So I'm going to stay where I am. Well, I think you should think about that twice, because there's a lot of things to take into consideration. The rumor is Breyer's office is pretty sweet. And it's right next to the vending machine. You get your Snickers bar instantly. You should know that I'm on the second floor

of the courthouse. All my other colleagues are on the first floor. The advantage of being on the second floor is I get more sunlight in my office. Very nice. It's bigger square footage than my colleagues. Number three, I can decorate on the walls outside my office, which they can't because they're on the historic first floor. So they can't hang anything outside their offices. And number four, they sit one after the other, which means they have to be a bit quiet because they can't disturb the people on either side of them. I'm a bit loud. I like laughing. I like playing music on occasion. I talk loud. And so I like being on the second floor. I'm not bothering anybody and they can't bother me. Have you ever gotten a call from one of the other justices to

keep it down? No. On the first floor, we have marble ceilings. Got it. You've got that marble. Yeah. And it keeps the noise from traveling upstairs. Yeah, we didn't know that. I never had that growing up and neither did you. We did bother the neighbors a lot. Well, I will say this has been an incredibly rare pleasure and privilege for me. I'm going back to Boston. I'm going tomorrow, or I'm sorry, day after tomorrow, I'm going to fly to Boston and to visit my parents. My mother just turned 90 in December and she will weep for joy when I tell her that I just spoke to a fellow graduate of Yale Law School who also happens to be a justice on the Supreme Court. And I'm just, it's an incredible honor.

Well, I'm in awe of her. I know how difficult it was for her generation of women to be lawyers. They simply were not welcomed in the same way. Yeah. And opportunities weren't open to them. That your mother became a partner in her law firm, had children, and then went back to work. Yeah. It's a real tribute to her fortitude and perseverance. Well, it is. It is. But, you know, better than anyone what it takes. And I also want to make sure that I encourage my listeners, everyone listening right now, to check out Just Help How to Build a Better World because it's a lovely book and it's funny. It is a children's book, but I read it and I thought it was very moving the ways in which you're showing how interconnected and interdependent we all are.

And there is something, you all get overwhelmed. We think, what difference does one person make? How do I make a difference? I'm just one person. And this book explains very simply how everybody committing one act of kindness and helping in oftentimes a simple and pretty easy way builds the fabric of society. And that's the crux of the issue so many of us are worried about right now is, are we unraveling? And this book very nicely explains and would be a wonderful book to read to your kids about how we, by being kind and seeing each other and being influenced by each other can make a much better society. It can, but one of the purposes of the book is to bring to people's attention that working together takes effort. It takes thought and

commitment. You described it as kindness. It's something more than that. It's having a purpose in your life and ensuring that you recognize that the world we live in is more than just you. It's all of us together. And you're right. It's all of us working together one step at a time to create a greater whole. And so for me, that message is so important for kids, not just today in our divided times, but just as a life lesson. And I really do believe that if kids are shown how powerful they can be, that they will act on it. We see it every day. I see it in the fact that kids are often kinder than many adults. And I think that's because they're still optimistic about their power. And for me, I write this kind of book in the hope that they'll remember

and understand that you never lose that power if you bear it in mind and live your life thinking about others. I think it's also what I noticed about the book is that all the kids are part of a community and the adults as well. And they're seeing each other. They're in the same physical space as each other. And this is a thing I keep going back to in my mind, which is these kids will have ideas of how to be good or how to help because they're seeing other people in their community. And again, one of the things that I think has become almost cancerous in our culture is people seeing others. They just see others and they don't even see them in person. They see them on social media or they see them depicted on television. And

that's how they start to think, well, I don't care about that person because they're not me and I don't like that person. Whereas in this book, you see all these kids are part of a community. They're part of the same fabric. And that is why they're inspired by each other to do these things. Conan, during September 11th, I remember watching TV and I remember a broadcaster interviewing a woman from the Midwest who started to talk about how she had been watching New Yorkers respond to the September 11th crisis and how she exclaimed at a certain point, you know, they're just like, we are. And I remember watching that and thinking, what did she think New Yorkers were? And I actually have given a speech about that

at one point because her exclamation has stayed with me. And I do think people forget our commonality. We all share some basic human values. Starting with love of family, doesn't matter what culture or background you come with, family is the center of most of our lives. So is our sense of caring for family, our love for each other, our belief or our wanting to support each other. There are so many other values we share as people. When you look at the differences, we forget the commonality. And that's the sadness of what's going on today. Those others are not us. But people don't stop and say, why not? Right. And if there are times when you're forced to be, and I say forced, I mean,

accidentally or on purpose, you're sharing the same space as someone who you would normally think, I don't agree with this person at all. When you do talk to them, you see, oh, they love their kids. They do love their country. They do love their parents. They do love, oh, they love Greek food too. They love those movies that I love. And it's very simplistic of me to say, but we need more of that. We need much more of that rather than just so much of our culture and so much of our media is just, let's really try and make the other side look stupid today. And that is, I think, obviously not getting us where we need to be. So I'm really happy that you, I really am still, to this day, think back on the children's books that

influenced me and how they can, influencing a child in a healthy way at this age is something that's so powerful and so good. And so I'm very happy that you continue to write these books, continue to write these books, just help how to build a better world. Just make sure it's there for your kids to read. Thank you. It was a pleasure and a joy to write it. I hope the kids will enjoy it as much as I did in writing it. And my only last question is, will you even consider Zoom with the fellow Supreme Court justices, or is it just the telephone or nothing? You know, the answer is, I would certainly consider it. But I am, you know, I get to see them every once in a while in the building anyway. So I don't know that we need it. We did have,

we did have a Zoom toast when Justice Barrett came to the court because it was at the height of COVID lockdown. And so we weren't having meetings, personal meetings then. So we've done at least one together. And also you ran into the problem of justices that want to have a silly background behind them. You notice the mind here is black. No, no, you have, I want to make it very clear that you have a very serious and adult background. But we all know that different, you know, Roberts is going to have his kooky Tahitian background. You know, and, you know, Kavanaugh is going to be whatever, in outer space, everyone's just going to have their own kooky, and it gets distracting at a certain point when you're discussing constitutional law.

Gee, I might want to suggest this. This sounds like fun to me. Well, okay, if you could suggest it, I would. I won't tell you what the vote was like. Yeah, bring up my name and see how that goes over. By the way, do you know that today is the Chinese New Year? It is. Happy New Year to everyone who celebrates today. Happy New Year to everyone who celebrates the year of the tiger. And again, I'm just delighted that I had the chance to speak with you. You're an incredibly inspiring person.

And I'm going to use this goodwill that you've and positivity that you've infused me with to go out and be a good person for at least 15 minutes. Give your producers and your tech guys a raise. They deserve it. About that. Yeah, yeah. And your assistant. And their people. I know, sis. And so does you, Justice. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. What are your credentials? Why should I be listening to you? Well, we've got an endorsement from the highest judicial branch.

I can't believe you just endorse these people. Justice, can you make that a ruling rather than just a suggestion? Well, I can't put it on letterhead. Okay. Well, until I see it on letterhead, there's nothing I can do. My hands are tied. Justice Sotomayor, thank you so much. Such an honor. This has meant everything to me. Thank you for doing this. Thank you, Conan. It was a real pleasure. I'll take you up on dinner next time we're in the same city.

Oh, really? Okay. Oh, yeah. We're doing that. And please don't read the thesis. It really... There's a reason I'm a comedian. Conan O'Brien needs a friend. With Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Gorely. Produced by me, Matt Gorely. Executive produced by Adam Saks, Joanna Solotarov, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Year Wolf.

Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering by Will Bekton. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brick Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan?

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