Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Michelle Obama Returns Again

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

Former First Lady Michelle Obama feels less cautious about being Conan O’Brien’s friend. Michelle returns to sit down with Conan once more to discuss her new book The Light We Carry, developing tools to deal with anxiety, the importance of working with one’s hands, and preparing for the empty nest.

Hi, my name is Michelle Obama and I feel less cautious about being Conan O'Brien's friend. Really? So, because when we first talked, you were cautiously optimistic. There's always a little hint of danger. You just said, never know what's going to happen. You never know what's going to happen. With my friend Conan. Hello, Conan O'Brien here, host of Conan O'Brien Needs Friend.

My name's in the title. That means I get to host it. Yeah. Joined here by of course, Matt Gorely and Sonam of Sessian. Hello. Hi. And I am just back from the great city of San Francisco. Oh, really?

How was it? Love San Francisco. Did you have a good time? Yeah. How was it? Nice. Now I'm sensing some, is it anger? Resentment?

What happened here? We're pissed. Yeah. You're pissed because let me explain to our listeners. I was asked to go to San Francisco to assist former First Lady Michelle Obama with promotion for her latest book, The Light We Carry, because no one can get the word out on a book like Conan O'Brien. And so I went and Mrs. Obama very kindly said that she would do our podcast while I

was up there. So I thought I should take all necessary personnel with me. Yeah. So I took Eduardo. Eduardo. Did you have a good time? It was good. Yeah.

You don't have to feel, Eduardo. You don't have to feel bad. You don't have to feel necessary. I feel like this is a trap. No, it's not your fault. Eduardo, you came with me because you are an excellent sound engineer and Aaron Blair, as well as I call you, Blay, you came along too. I did.

Thanks for having me. Yeah. I don't even know what you did on the trip. Yeah, why is this happening? To be honest with you. Yeah. It's not making mouth noises as the institution for explanation. I mean, I feel like I facilitate.

I lubricate social lubricates, you know, we shouldn't be mad at him. Yeah. I don't know why. I think I did a brilliant thing, which is I immediately identified a Paula Davis came along. Paula Davis is there. Adam was there too. Adam Sacks.

Everybody in this room. Adam Sacks was there because I think Adam put it best when he said, I get to go. I think that's what he said. Is that all we have to do? I said, I get to go. Now, listen, no, you two were not invited along. We have to keep costs down and you're expensive, Sona. You have all these demands when you travel.

I am not expensive. You're very expensive. I think that you are ashamed of us a little bit. No, no, I'm not ashamed at all. I think what it is is he doesn't, he's afraid that we're going to charm Mrs. Obama too much and he doesn't want that tension taken off of him. You know what else is, okay, we went to Milwaukee. Was it to interview her?

Yeah. Then we did a Zoom interview, her second interview. Matt and I wrote at both of those. I know. Then you go to this third one and suddenly we're not there. She thinks you probably like fired at us. I know. Well, first of all, to how it should remember you, oh, she meets a lot of people.

Oh. Also, we weren't invited to the Barack Obama session either and now I'm starting to sense a pattern to make me real uncomfortable. But there is no pattern because we've been there for two of them, so this doesn't make it a sin. What about the possibility that you've had your chances to hang with Michelle Obama? So have you. And that may be at, I'm the host of the thing.

I know, but we could have gone and you could have stayed. Oh, yeah, that would have been a great conversation. Yeah. Oh, Mrs. Obama, tell us what you like about Cher. What does she like about Cher? Yeah, good point. What's your favorite flavor of edible? Yes.

Finally a fresh perspective. All the questions you ask have been unique and different. Hey, Mrs. Obama, what did you shoplift when you were 24? Yes. Yes. These are the things people want to know. What did you ask, girl? How was it like growing up in the south side of Chicago?

Like, she hasn't been asked that like 10,000 times. I asked fascinating questions. I don't know. I just edited it this morning and it was lacking a certain, let's say, Sona and Matt. Oh. What a terrific podcast we have where prior to the interview with Michelle Obama, you announced to the people who can decide whether or not they want to listen to it or not, it's lacking something.

It is. What a... It's lacking the two of us. What a screwy organization we have. I chuckle. He has his quips. You probably needed them. Yeah.

I'm going to say that, well, I think we should ask Adam Sacks. Adam Sacks, you were there and you're a fair man. Do you think this interview is worth people's time, Adam? That's a trick question. Yeah, do you... That's a trick question. The interview I had with Mrs. Obama because I think, I'm not going to kidding around, this is my favorite one of the ones we've done and I like the other two a lot.

I feel bad because I think that Matt and Sona do really add a hell of a lot to the podcast and are always great and I think they would have been... They would not have taken away from the interview that you had with Mrs. Obama. They might have added something, but I also think it's true that this is the best conversation between them. Yeah, it's a really good one and I'll say something else, which you both have to remember is that when you're talking to someone like Michelle Obama, who was the first lady of this nation for eight years, when you're talking to someone in that upper, upper, upper, upper,

upper echelon, background checks are involved. And I, gorelly, to be fair, I think you were probably involved with the John Birch Society sometime in the late 80s. There was some weird, whatever, you've got some weird skeletons in your closet. I'm more liberal than you, you arch-concerned. I don't know what John Birch decided. You were arrested once with three ventriloquist dummies and you were in the park. Now, that is true.

What were you doing? Exactly. It was... Listen, these are background checks. Excuse me? What's that? What'd you say? What'd you say?

I was fucking them? What'd you say? I was romancing them... Sona, this is a Michelle Obama podcast. Why can't you hold it together? That's why I said it quietly. Oh, yeah, into an expensive microphone that's designed to catch the sound of cells dividing. And you have to go there with that.

He's a ventriloquist dummy in the park. Yeah, alright, and that always means... He's fucking them. Stop it! Sona, knock it off. I was not fucking them. I was making love to them. There's a huge difference.

He always buys them wine first. Jesus Christ. Now, Sona, you know that you would not survive a background check. You're in this country illegally. You've done all kinds of stuff. What? No. First, we've met her.

Yeah, we've already been checked. We've already met her. We've been vetted. Yeah. So, you didn't take us for no reason. She got better background check people. Oh, better than what? Yeah, the first two times she was on the show, she was dealing with a really bad background

check organization. And she was always talking to the wrong people. And it was bad. She was doing them herself. Yeah. She was just Google searching us. Yeah. Checking people out.

Yeah. And so, anyway, no, this was... I'm sorry that you guys couldn't be there. No, you're not. No, I follow... And listen, I have to follow... You know, Adam has very strict dictates about keeping things... Is this your fault?

No, I would have loved for you guys to be there. Oh! Oh! Wow! Okay. Alright. I just... It's an important...

Conan said no. Conan said no. It's an important interview. And it has to go just right. Can we... Excuse me? Excuse me? Excuse me?

And you are... I'm sorry, Matt. You're a loose cannon. And this one brings up ventriloquist fucking every 10 minutes. I can't have it! You brought up ventriloquist dummies. And when we first went to... I said ventriloquist dummies!

And we know what you implied. I didn't add the second part. That's Sona! We know it, Matt. That's Sona! Don't say, oh, you brought up ventriloquist dummies. So, therefore, you're a monster. That's what you meant.

And when we went out the first time to Milwaukee, we were model co-hosts or sidekicks. We barely peaked up at all. To me, fair, you've gotten more comfortable, though, and that's a risk. Is that what it was? Yes. You know what?

That's a risk. Hold it. To pick up where Adam is coming from. And this is true, Matt. You are not the same guy that went to Milwaukee. You were very buttoned down and professional then. You love getting the laughs, the chuckles. You'll say the aberrant, errant quip every now and then,

and we all love you for it, but I cannot have that kind of behavior around Michelle Obama. Not with a First Lady. I would never, ever, please. Are you kidding? Why are you keeping us from the Obama stuff? Seriously. What is it?

Why don't you let us? Why can't you let us? I think there's a chance, if I play my cards right, that I could get into the Obama inner circle. Oh, no. That's never going to happen. I'm not going to be invited like, you know, when they're getting together with their best friends.

No. From Chicago, from those days, like their best, best, best friends that I'm there to. No. Now, you call that delusional if you want, but this is the long game, and I can't take a chance on you two idiots. I just can't.

You're out of control, Sona. And Gourley, I know that you have some horrible, horrible skeletons in your closet. Prove it, but I can't take the risk. I just don't know what we should say is, should we just branch out on our own? Maybe. Yeah.

I think that me and Matt, you know what? Me and Matt, we're going to start booking our own, Conan O'Brien needs a friend episode. With Melania Trump. When, yeah, we're going to just do it without you, because we really do need his name. I think that is. We'll still, yeah, we'll still use the name.

All right, listen. If you feel badly, I'm sorry. And next time I'll get you on board. No, you won't. I will. I will. No, you won't. I didn't say, I mean, I will.

I really will. And you can hear it in my voice, and I'm really going to do it. And we know how to be behaved when the guest demands it, you know? Okay. Well, all right. Yeah.

I just, you know. Yeah. You guys, I can trust you like around Sarah Silverman, but that's it, you know? You know what I mean? But what about you? Yeah. You can't be trusted.

Yeah. You have all people shouldn't be talking to the first lady. I agree with you. I agree with you 100%, but that's the way it went down. All right. And I blame the Obamas for their poor decisions. Oh, man.

Oh, man. They need to raise their podcast bar. Anyway, I did miss you guys. No, you didn't. Okay, leave it alone. You're trying to wrap it up and you're saying things that are all false. Yeah.

Glad I didn't bring you. Yeah, thank you. It went so well. Thank you. What you're about to hear. Refreshing. What you're about to hear is free of, you know, it's like you guys are the pulp in the orange juice.

And some people don't want the pulp. This is just beautiful, clear, wonderful, pulp-free orange juice. Clear. My guest today. Come on. Let's pull it together. My guest today is a former first lady,

best-selling author of the 2018 memoir, Becoming Her Latest Book, The Light We Carry Overcoming in Uncertain Times, is available now. I'm very honored she's with us today. Michelle Obama, welcome. The word on the street. Yeah. Conan's nothing but trouble.

I gave a speech once years ago at Dartmouth and the first President Bush was there. He was long out of office. And actually, you and President Obama were in office at the time, but I gave a speech and he was there and Barbara Bush was there, the first lady. And just before I got up to give my speech,

she looked at me and all she knew is he's some comedian from television. And she looked at me and she said, you behave. So I got up and gave a very respectful introduction to the former president and I did behave. And she was quite pleased and afterwards my mother went up to her and said, I've been telling him that for 40 years.

He never listened to me. But Barbara Bush looks you in the eye. She has a way. She has a way. Barbara Bush had that tone. So it felt like she was going to pull your ear afterwards if it didn't happen. So you thought, nah, I'm not going to risk being yanked by.

I am not going to cross this woman. That lower side pinch that mothers do under the arm. Oh, is that what you got? Did you get under the arm? I would do that. I didn't get it, but sometimes I would give it. The girl still reminisce about some of those moments where you got the kind of, come here.

I said, your teeth are kind of gritty and you don't want to show that there's abuse happening, but there's a little pinch. And they talk about how they go, oh, mom. I was like, you be quiet. We're in public. Yeah. I used to, my son used to be this fun little boy

and I would wrestle and toss him all around the room. During COVID, he grew to six feet, three and a half inches. And he's much stronger than me. I come home and he just throws me against the wall. Really? It doesn't go well. I would love to see that. I really would.

Is it like an immediate attack? It's an immediate attack. I'd like to, let's just quickly recap. You said I reek of danger and you'd like to see me beaten. These are the things that you've said so far. This doesn't bode well for me. No, you're taking it all out of context. No, I'm really not.

I'd say I said those things exactly. You know, it's funny. It just occurred to me because I was talking to your people because you've got people now. I do. I've always had people. Well, you've got more people now. I don't have many people.

I think I have less people than when I was in the White House. Really? Because we're now paying for the people. So they're less of them. I know for sure. The minute it's on your dime, it's far fewer people. Same amount of work fewer people. But anyway, yes, I do have people.

So what did they say to you, the people? No, just before we got started here, they were recounting. I was curious about your book tour and they were telling me, I've played this giant hall two nights ago, three nights before that, this city, that city, flying, flying, flying. And it occurred to me, you're in show business. Is it?

No, but it's impressive. Like you're selling out, you know, giant halls. And it is, I don't know how you feel about it. Are you enjoying it because your first tour was such a hit? It was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, this, I enjoy it because this is really how I can interact with people in kind of a, you know, it's like,

secret service won't let me in a crowd that size if everybody's not seated and ticketed. So it's actually, for me, I need people's energy, you know, and for the last few years, because of quarantine, none of us had it. You know, at the end of last book tour, you know, that's right after that, right after all those arena tours, all those people, all the community events,

as I wrote, that's when quarantine happened. And we went from all of that energy and all the hugging and loving to years of uncertainty and isolation. And I'm like everybody, it's like, I need to be around people and be reminded of why this country is good. Yeah. And those kind of places, the theaters that we're in, it's like when you lead with goodness, you know,

it shows up, it responds. It will respond to that. I find, if I'm like a lot of us watching the news, I can get very down, very depressed, because we all know that the news needs to be negative. It's almost like there's an algorithm that says if it's negative, it's got to be on the news. And just what you're talking about,

I find that if I can get out and see people, now, even if it's people I don't agree with, who don't vote the way that I vote or have different beliefs, I still like to talk to people and I feel better. I feel connected, which is, I think what you're... That's exactly it, because, you know, one phrase I say, it's harder to hate up close. Yeah.

And when you're with people looking at them in the eye, and I found this all throughout the eight years in the White House campaigning, even if I was in a town that was not supporting my husband, people are still courteous, you know. And if you're ready to be vulnerable and start sharing some of yourself, you slowly get their walls to come down, you know,

because they're judging us from a distance too. But then when you get there and you start talking about the things you have in common, your family, you know, your upbringing. Well, that's huge too, family. And if you reveal, and this gets me into your book, if you reveal insecurities to people, there's a common philosophy or a first assumption

that if you reveal an insecurity, you're weakening yourself. And in my experience, if you reveal an insecurity, you strengthen the bond with the other person, because you're allowing them to see the real you, and it's this kind of magical trick that I don't think is discussed enough. And it's...

I'll tell you this. I read your first book, and I loved it. I read The Light We Carry, and when I finished this book, and I've also read your husband's book, I'm always nervous about the correct phrasing, the president's book. Him. Him.

That guy. That guy. That guy. As you said to me once, when I was hosting, when I was gonna perform at the White House Correspondence Dinner, and you and I are sitting together, and you were so nice to me, because it's such a crazy nerve-wracking thing,

and you were so nice to me, and we were chatting, and then you said something about the president, and well, he thinks that, you know, he said, here's what's gonna happen after we leave office, and here's where we're gonna go, and here's what we're gonna do, and this is what we and the kids have decided, and she says, now, that guy may have different ideas,

but that guy doesn't know the score. And I said, that guy is the president of the United States. I just love that you've earned the right to call him that guy. That guy. And he doesn't really know what he was talking about. He thought he had a say, but we just sort of let that guy believe that he has some power in his household.

Like, just let him talk. Yeah, yeah, my wife does that. She lets me think that I'm making big decisions, and then I noticed this isn't where I said we were gonna vacation. I never said this town, huh? Well, I guess we are skiing after all. And I'm enjoying it.

It's actually nice, but yeah. But what I've found about your book, which is so nice and different, I think, than the first book, is that you're addressing something that I talk about a lot on this podcast, which is there is a common misconception that people who are in your position or to a much lesser degree, my position,

people that are known that we don't have anxieties, we don't have issues, and you have some revelations in the book, which I think are gonna help a lot of people. Because one of your, early in the book, you talk about this terrible fear you had, this anxiety about just before your first book came out, and your self-doubt,

and you're gonna put yourself out there, and it ends with, am I good enough? And I read it, and it occurred to me, this is 2018. You've already been the first lady of the United States for eight years. You're not saying this, well, it was 1984, 1985. I was nervous.

This is 2018, you're feeling all of that. And I felt that way before this book came out, too. I mean, we practice those messages. We all do, especially if you're different, tall, black woman. We're raised in a society where we're constantly questioning, are we good enough?

That question is planted in us. So what I'm revealing to people is that it was planted in me, too. And it's a thing that I continuously struggle with. And it's interesting because you struggle with it now. It's going to be with you for the whole ride. My text to my wife just before I came in here today was, well, I'm gonna go and talk to you, Mr. Obama, again,

on the podcast, and feeling some anxiety, and she wrote back, what are you talking about? And you couldn't be an easier person to talk to, but it is practically... And in your book, you talk about how, I think you quote Lin-Manuel Miranda. You say it's kind of necessary to be anxious. That's right.

And I talk in the book about, I've learned how to be, as a tool, how to be comfortably afraid. That fear is always there. It's an emotion that we need, because oftentimes it keeps us safe. It keeps us out of trouble. I also explore the fact that when we don't learn

how to decode it and how to manage it, it can also keep us stuck, stuck in our sameness and our isolation, not just stuck from moving from one point to the next, but it keeps us stuck with the same people, the people who make us comfortable, the same ideas. And that's a dangerous place to be. But when you're like us, I would say,

people who constantly push themselves outside of their comfort zone. It's not that the fear goes away. You just learn how to be comfortable in that ride that you're going to take. And as Lin said, I wrote about, he used that fear as rocket fuel. And you learn how to manage the rocket.

If you don't ride it well, you can crash into the sea. But if you learn how to go with it and manage it, it can take you to the moon. I tell my daughter, who's a lot like me, I tell her, and she's a freshman in college, and I tell her, she'll get very intense about, I've got this paper, I've got this test.

And since she was a little girl, I've been talking to her about her worry brain. Her fearful mind, as I call it. Yeah, you call it fearful mind. And I always call it to her worry brain. And I said, bad news is you got my worry brain. And that's on me. Your mom doesn't have it, but I have it.

You've got the worry brain. So what you need to do is you need to look at the user's manual that came with you. And that's my way of looking at it. Go to section three. And I know I was explaining this to someone and they told me, oh, they had a name for it psychology where you remove,

you act as if your mind is something outside of you. You look at it from a distance. And I told her, you've got to look at the manual. And the manual says the Nev Ellis Powell O'Brien is an amazing machine and it can do all these great things. Sometimes runs hot in these situations. Right, right. And when that happens.

Press eject. I haven't said that, but I like that. But this is what you're doing with Nev is what a lot of us don't do in our parenting. We don't help our kids, especially these days, practice their way through their fear, their anxiety. Our generation of parents,

we try to prevent them from feeling it at all. That's the helicopter part of it. And I talk about how my mother and father deliberately tried to push us towards fear or push us through the fear because they knew what it looked like to be stuck in your sameness, stuck in your difference.

And the tool that I'm offering parents is just that. Our kids should learn how to live in anxiety. We shouldn't try to stop them from feeling it, just like we can't stop them from feeling failure because they have to learn how to practice through it. And I think outside of the kids who are dealing with real serious mental health issues, a lot of the problem is that we are over-parenting them.

We don't want them to feel any fear because it makes us feel bad. So we step in and we try to fix it so they never learn how to practice their way through it to get used to it. I remember when Sasha was, she had to be and not even in middle school and she had, you know,

I'm on alert for every sign of anything that was going wrong with the girls because I was like, I don't want this experience to screw them up, right? Which is a legitimate fear because they're in a fishbowl. In a fishbowl, an odd situation, something Barack and I never experienced.

So we're constantly managing our parenting. So she comes to me and she's like, Mom, I'm feeling anxiety. And I'm thinking, whoa, whoa, big word for a, you know, sixth grader. I was like, well, tell me what's going on. Sit down. And she basically describes the fact

that she gets anxious when she hasn't done her homework, when she has a test, you know, when she's procrastinated. I was like, well, you know, you're supposed to have those feelings, you know, that you don't get medication because the immediate response in the culture she was in was maybe I need medication.

And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to learn. If you don't want to feel that kind of anxiety, then go to bed on time, do your homework on time. You know, you have to work your way through that. And sometimes as parents, because we just don't want our kids to suffer any, any failing, we stop those emotions from happening.

And the thing that happens is that the first time your kid has to deal with anxiety, they're 30 years old. They're out of your house. And you do not want your, your child to be practicing learning how to deal with their anxiety when they're in their 30s or in their 20s or after they graduate from college. So what you're doing with Nev is that you're giving her

some tools to help talk her through what are natural emotions that we all have to deal with. We all feel fear. We all feel anxious. It's, it's a part of the human experience. I think that's why so many of us struggled with quarantine and COVID and where the news is because we don't like uncertainty. But uncertainty is baked into the human experience.

There's no way around it, you know, life is unfair and it is uncertain. So let's stop trying to not feel that stuff. And now let's work on developing our tools, identifying the tools we have to get through this stuff. And that's what led to the writing of this book, because I'm sharing my tools, you know, and I don't think I help anybody by pretending I'm the Michelle Obama

that never fails, that never does anything wrong. I think that's an unfair thing to do as a model, especially to young people, because they naturally look at us up here and are, you know, out in the public, always looking good, flawless hair done, speaking perfectly, making people laugh, and they think it's never been hard for them. And I want kids to see all my hard, all my flaws,

all my broken, you know, so that they know you too can get here. This is not a perfect path. No one has it. And I think we do kids with social media, this, you know, era of whitewashing ourselves, these perfect pictures, these images of celebrities all done up and lit just perfectly before they post. It will drive our young people insane

to think that that's what life is. I've made it a mission in life to never have a good picture of me out there. Are you succeeding so far? I'm killing it. There's never any makeup. I often look drunk. That's the way that I'm contributing. You're doing it through these thoughtful, thoughtful writings

and really, you know, brilliant thoughts, and I'm doing it my way. I don't have a shirt on and a bunch of them. I don't work out. He's wearing a shirt now, people. Fully, fully dressed. And he's not drunk. Wait a minute. You don't know.

That's true. I heard a friend of mine saw you in the bar. I like to start at noon. It's a good time to get going. It is funny because when I finished this second book of yours and having read now all three books, both that you've done and you're lapping your husband, by the way, that guy's got to get a going.

That guy. He's written one, you've written two. He wrote half of one, technically. There you go. You're keeping up. That's what he'd say is like, hey, hey, hey, line up half of a book out here. He would. He would correct me very quickly. But I finished this book and I thought,

I'm a lot more like Mrs. Obama than I am like the president because he's got this. The times I've been around him and he did the podcast and the many times that I've had a chance to chat with him, he's got this inner calm that I don't have. I notice it the minute I meet someone. It doesn't matter if he's the president or not the president to be a gas station attendant.

I just know it when I meet them. They have it. I don't. And in your book, you're talking about a lot of the things that tools that I found. I have different names for them, but they're pretty much what you're talking about. Like you have a rule which is just keep it small, keep it simple.

You know, during COVID and all the anxiety, you started getting into knitting. And I did a very similar thing during COVID. I made a model airplane. Just one. Don't say just one. You know, I thought it was like more. I made a model airplane.

Do you know how many sweaters and blankets I've knitted? Like I'm laughing you. This is a very complicated plane. I saw the picture of it. It is made of balsa wood. It was a kit that was from like the 1940s that I found somewhere.

How long did it take you to make it? It took months to make this thing. And I was putting on a mask and going into the valley and I don't make models. I don't even do it. I was possessed. What made you go to the model airplane? I don't know.

I have no idea, but I wanted, I suddenly thought I needed to build something. And this kit that someone had given me a long time ago, I thought, I'm never going to build that. I said, I'm going to build this World War I balsa wood, giant, complicated plane. And I don't have any of the tools to do it. So I found a place where I could go wearing a mask

and buy different glues and stuff. It's the nerdiest thing I've ever done. And that's really saying something. Because I am, you know. Like you said, we have gotten away from creating things with our hands. We are now of that culture where the less the better.

You punch a thing, swipe across a screen and everything is there. And I think that there is something meditative and soothing and it's something that we as humans need. We were makers. We've always been makers. And I think we're restless in that.

Because everything is so quick and ready for us. So we're not working. So we have a lot of idle time to worry and be anxious over things when we should be. Normally we would be chopping wood for the fire. We'd be collecting twigs. We'd have to go hunt and kill and skin an animal. You don't have time to be anxious about the evening news

or to overthink everything because you're busy and your mind shuts off. Your worrying mind, as I call it. It just quiets when you're engaged in something with your hands that requires you to do nothing but focus on the thing in your lap. And that to me was so clarifying. The process of a knit and a purl stitch,

a purl and a knit stitch a row after a row and the satisfaction of completing a thing. What were you knitting? Tell me some of the things you were knitting. I started with anything rectangular. So lots of blankets. Because as you're learning, you're just practicing getting your rows straight.

So just big rectangles. Big rectangles. But then I moved to hats. And eventually I moved to cardigan sweaters. You make cardigans? I have made two baby cardigan sweaters and a cardigan for my mom. I made a crew neck sweater for Barack.

So I actually now know how to make a sweater. Did you ever put these on Etsy? Are you going to see these anywhere? People have asked my staff. It's been like, well, you know, we could make so much money. And I was like, but see then it's not a hobby. Now it's now because when I first started doing it, I did it the Michelle Obama way.

I overdid. I knitted something for everybody. Pillows. Everybody got a gift for Christmas. And I was knitting like I was Santa's elf. Barack would come and it's like, are you OK in there? It's like, I got to finish the blanket. It's almost Christmas Eve.

And so I took it overboard, right? So now I'm trying to wean myself. I'm trying to pull it back a little bit, but that's that's my personality type. It's like, if I'm going to do it, I'm not going to build one model airplane. OK, again, I'm going to build seven. Again, we're going to edit this later

so that you're far more complimentary. We're going to hire an actress who sounds a lot like you. To do a job and say, that's so amazing. I mean, one just finishing one is enough. And you'll it'll get back to you that we did this. And you'll be like, oh, that's just sad. No, but the going small is I think it's it's one of the most important tools that I can share with young people to once again.

Yeah. Because I write about how this generation, you know, with this constant negative news and the worry about everything, they're always on their phones. They're getting too much information. The young people I run into are worried. They are worried about the world, all of them. They're worried about climate change.

They're worried about crime in their neighborhoods and their young thinking about ways to fix everything. Right. You know, and they wear themselves out. What's paralyzing? It's paralyzing, totally paralyzing. When the thing they need to do is focus on your knitting. Yeah.

All you can do at 12, 15 is go to school. Yeah. Go to class, finish your homework, you know, start there because that's the stitch. Those are the stitches you put together. And if you don't put each of those stitches together, you will never be help to have help to anyone. Yeah.

Because you will flame out. You will never graduate. You won't learn how to write. You won't know. So you're trying to take on these big problems that are too big for the power that you have, but you do have power to control the thing you can. That's why I say when I got into the White House,

when people asked me what was going to be my agenda, I said, well, my first focus is going to be mom and chief, you know, because I have to make sure that the kids I'm in charge of are good before I can help anybody else's kids. And I got criticized by feminists about that, like mom and chief. And I was like, well, of course I'm going to do everything else. That was a given.

I know how to work. I know how to be a professional. I knew, you know, but I thought it was an important thing to say, I have to control what I can. I brought these two kids in the world. I have to be a good mother to them before I can help anybody. Yeah. You know, but we so make great the enemy of the good.

We so, you know, want to fix climate change that we don't even vote. You know, we want a democracy, but we can't be bothered to do the one thing. We actually control, which is go to the poll one day every now and then and push a couple of buttons, but we want everything to be fixed because we think big is better. And what I find is that small is where change happens. That's the, that's the monotonous every day, stitch the glue on the propeller.

Thank you. Now you reeled me back in the little thing you can do and there's satisfaction in completing that small thing that keeps you going for the next thing. So another tool that I had in that small thing is you're feeling anxious. The first thing is wake up every day. Just focus on waking up, set your alarm, get up every day, take a shower, brush your teeth, do it again tomorrow and eat something

and then move your body. It's like you will work yourself. If you're not dealing with deeper depression issues, but the vast majority of people can slowly with small steps, at least I find that I do that. I can work my way into a more positive response because I just feel better. I feel better being awake. I feel better when I'm clean.

These aren't big, huge things that you're trying to tackle. This is just one stitch at a time. When my son was much younger, he was at the Warner Brothers Lot and he was visiting me and I took him to get lunch and he had a total meltdown. He was small enough that I could carry him and I had to pick him up in front of everybody and he was having a total meltdown and I took him back to my office and I sat him down.

He's red-faced crying and I said, breathe, don't talk. Eat this banana. He looked at me and I said, we will discuss this in 10 minutes and he sat there quietly eating this banana while I was doing my work at my desk and after 10 minutes he went, well, I do feel so much better. Why? Why are there father? Father, this banana is extraordinary. It's lovely. It's like, who was that animal that was screaming just a few minutes ago?

Did you hear that shrieking? It was so embarrassing. But it is really funny to me that I think that is something that comes with, there are these tools you can use as a parent or you find yourself using as a parent that you realize, wait, these also work on me. And I have to remember this or it works with my wife and my wife will tell me, you need to take a walk,

you need to get your heart rate up, then you need to eat a banana and don't talk to me ever again. And that's really work. And it works. One thing that you're going through when you walked in the room, you said, how are you doing? And I said, we should talk on mic because I know you've gone through this and I've not yet, but my daughter is in college,

my son's a junior in high school, but we're getting close to that emptiness time. I know. And here's the thing. My paranoia is every now and then I see when you have kids, as you know, it's all hands on deck. And just like you guys, we had two and they're two years apart and we're in it and everything is about them.

And it binds you as a couple. I see my daughter's becoming more and more independent. My son is too. And he's out driving and then he's going to leave. And every now and then I think I see my wife looking at me and going, now what about that guy? Maybe we could... I shouldn't say you.

Okay, you're going to edit that out too. We're going to edit that out. We're going to have the actress who plays you go, wow, look at that guy. That's a lot of man right there. No, but you do. You have this feeling of, I mean, I know I'm being silly, but at the same time, I think, you know, I wouldn't blame her for saying, I think it's time to level up in that.

I've just been putting up with you because you were the father of my offspring. Now I'm going to eat you alive. Exactly. Yeah. Literally demolish you. I don't know how is your husband handling it. It's interesting because I would wonder how your wife feels. Like you feel a sense of dread, right?

Because it's like these two are leaving and I'm going to miss them. I bet she's feeling like, bye, get out of my house. I can't wait for you to go. And I love my kids, right? What sure sounds like it. I do. I do really love them still. I can't wait till I don't have to see you again.

But here's the thing, parenting, when you are the primary parent, you know, and I have a very involved husband, really, truly. But I'm still the primary parent. I'm the one that manages the weekend, right? And the weekends with teenagers is just all hands on deck. It's like, what party? Who's going? Are you dropping off?

You know, there's always a thing, right? And that's what it's been for the last 20 some odd years. Me and these two, I've had so much quality time with them. They have, you know, that I am, I am ready for them to go. I'm ready to hand them their lives. I'm so excited about it because it frees me up. And so what it did do, the good news for you, what happened to me is that all that anxiety, all that energy I was putting into them that had me worn out and sometimes a

little irritable, it's all gone. And now guess what? I look over at my husband and I'm like, there you are. I don't resent you because I'm not exhausted, you know? So I think there's going to be a lightness that comes about that you will not anticipate because you may not realize how much your wife has been holding on to. I just have to get these kids to the finish line. I just want them whole.

I think that mothers think about that in a different way. I think we've held on to all this tension and anxiety through the child rearing ages. We just want them to be safe. We want them to be whole. We've been worrying about whether they're going to graduate and do what they're supposed to do and get their tests, all the deadlines and all the, it's just nonstop. And it was for me. So when they left the house, all of that energy left and it made room for me.

Number one, I had more room time for me. And then I had more emotional energy for my husband. And now it's back to the way it was before the children where we each had our own independent lives, right? And I didn't care. I don't care what he does because I don't need him to do. He can golf as much as he wants to. And we also got rid of that thing that was the presidency.

So we, we moved through that big child. That was like our third and fourth and fifth child, the presidency, right? So that's off our plates. There is a level of freedom and ability for each of us to take up our own projects, you know, where our work is together, but it's not dependent on each other. I travel when I want with him or without him. It's back to those times when we live our lives and then we come back together. And it's like, what'd you do today?

You know, and it's not about the kids. It's about us. But that's inspiring for me to hear. I should have mentioned my wife's already seeing someone else. He works for us, works on the HVAC system. He seems like a nice guy. I'm telling you, you went on this whole long thing and I'm like, I forgot to mention Well, there's that.

I mean, if you've already, you've already lost her. You can't just dismiss it as well. Of course. Yes. Occasionally there is the guy who does the HVAC. If you've already lost her, I don't know what to tell you, but I think we can, you know, you lost her. You know, you don't mention that in the light we carry.

I don't go over that. I don't go over that. You should have a separate Conan section at the end. I don't know why I just flashed in my mind, but I have to bring up there was a time when you and I visited a military base together in the Middle East and it was a great trip and you were going to say hi to the troops and they were so happy to see you. It was Doha, I believe, Air Force Base. And you brought me to do a show for them, which was you'll never have a better audience

in the world. Yeah. So it was just great all around, but there was one thing. Again, this was your people, but they wanted you to go and sit at everyone's table in a giant mess hall and talk to them, but they said, here's the thing. And they took me aside, like I'm somebody who knows anything. I'm just the clown. I'm the party clown.

And they took me aside and they said, your job, Conan, is every 10 minutes you have to go to the table and say, I'm sorry, Mrs. Obama, but we have to be moving on to the next table. You're like, why are you going to make me do that? And I'm like, wait, but why would I, and they were like, you're just doing it. That's what's happening. So you would go over these service men and women are just thrilled and you're sitting there and you're talking to them and they're like, I can't believe we're sitting at a table with the first lady.

And then after 10 minutes, I would have to come up and go, hey guys, sorry, but Mrs. Obama, you got to go. And everyone would look at me with a kind of hate. Like who are you? Yeah. And they were like, what do you mean he says you have to go? Who's that? That was a horrible setup.

It was a horrible setup and you would always roll your eyes and go, well, this idiot. Yeah, I'd stay for, I'd be here for days, but Conan O'Brien says we've got to move things along. That was an unfair situation. It was very unfair and you loved it. I could tell you loved it. You talk. That was a great visit though.

It was really great. You talk in your book about feeling different and about how tall was hard for you when you were young. I do think it can be harder for women than for men at an early age because women can feel very self-conscious when they're tall and you struggled with it. Yeah. Yeah. This is the chapter about am I seen?

And when you first feel othered or different and I'd start with height because I think most people would think that the hardest thing for me would be my race, right? But as I'd say in the book, I mean, I grew up in a black community. I wasn't different for a long time when it came to race. I went to, I was with my extended family. So it was the height part, being the tall girl, you know, being the, and all that goes along especially in our era because tall was, you know, there weren't that many, it seems like they're more tall people now.

Yes. Seems like the world has adjusted. People are growing more. Thank goodness. But when we were coming up, being tall was unusual. You couldn't find clothes that fit. I spent all these years, I sit tugging on my pant legs because they were never quite hitting right on that.

Mine would not hit the shoe. They wouldn't even come close to the shoe. And it looked like I was wearing knickers. And we called that they, they called them floods. Floods and people would, kids would always say, yeah, where's the flood? They would say, where's the flood? And I thought, this is, I just hate my life. Yeah.

And arms never being, even to this day with custom clothes, I still find myself, I'm rolling up my sleeves because the arms were never long enough. But I start with height because I want to define difference broadly, you know, because sometimes in this country, particularly we think about race and gender, but different, so many people in this country, in this world are walking around feeling the, the mark of being different. And what, when you're, when you don't see yourself in a place, when you, when you are an other, you start practicing the, the story that you don't matter, you know, I don't see

myself, I don't fit in, I don't matter. And that creates a level of invisibility that people feel. And we hear that term now, people feeling like they don't see themselves in the world and how isolating that can be. So I try to start helping a broader set of people identify with their differentness so that maybe they can see how that might feel for people of a different race or different sexual orientation, if they can connect to it. It makes sense because race is such, such an important topic and such an important question

and something this country is still grappling with and, and needs to keep confronting. At the same time, it can overwhelm any conversation. When you say, I feel weird about, I felt strange because I was so tall or for me, it was, I had bright orange hair. You still do. I know. But this, but this is a wig. It velcros on the back.

You've got such great hair. Thank you. Now see, now we can use that. We're just going to keep putting that on a loop. Con, if you got great hair. I do have great hair. Thank you. And I didn't feel great when you were young.

Because my mom would cut it in a bowl. Oh my gosh. And so, I mean, she would, there were six of us. So she would line us up and she had the Sears and Roebuck haircutting kit and she would bring us in one at a time and we would sit on a high stool and she would go like a mow on the three stooches right across the middle. And I had not just freckles, but really like someone painted them on like a cartoon. So I grew up looking a lot like the Wendy's girl and I, with a bowl cut and I just, and

I had the pigtails too. But that was my choice. That was me doing my thing. But it was a feeling of, I remember a lot of my youth feeling like I don't like the way I look. And I had very specific ideas of how I wouldn't it be great for some reason I thought black hair is cool. If I wish I had black hair and I wish I looked like that person on TV or that person on TV.

I wanted to be a gymnast. I wanted to be, I write, write, write about, I wanted to be Nadia Komenich. That's right. Right? Yeah. You know, because I was, at that time I was about her age and she had gotten the perfect and of course I picked the one thing that I was physically probably the most ill suited to be with these long legs and long arms.

You'd be one of the tallest gymnasts in the history. But I didn't know. I didn't know that height was really connected to center of gravity, but I set out to be a gymnast and I failed miserably at it. But you know, that's the thing. When you're young, you're searching to find yourself, to find a model for yourself. And in America in the time that I was growing up, I write about how few models of what, what a tall, strong black young girl could be in life.

There were no images of me to follow. And then you follow that up by going to Princeton, you know, and I talk about what that feels like to set foot on an Ivy League campus where there was really no sign of people like me anywhere. Right? And women, I think when you went to Princeton, it had only been co-ed for I think 12 years. That's right. Which is not a long time.

Yeah. So, you know, when you are different, you are spending a lot of time sizing yourself up against other people's mirrors. And that's, and that ties to the self-doubt that you feel that, or that we talked about earlier, that feeling of, am I good enough? You know, because you grew up black, tall, redhead, freckles, different. And you, you were taught at a very early age that maybe not, you know? And so you practice those messages and, and many of us practice those messages and I want

people of color to understand that that, that's not, that doesn't just happen to people because of race. That's happening to a lot of us because we have such a narrow view of what being human is in, especially in this country. The only people who seem to count, you have to be a certain, not even a certain race, but a certain hair color, a certain height, a certain, and it's usually male, white, blonde, it's wealthy, you know? So when you narrow down the definition of the heroes that we put, we've put out, most

of the country doesn't fit. Most of the country feels unseen. And I think that's where anger and, and that's when people are easy to divide because they don't feel seen. And why I tackle that is because I think we have to work on seeing ourselves. You know, I try to tell kids that, you know, because people ask, well, how do you overcome that? And it's like, well, I had to think about my father, you know, and, you know, he was

not just a poor black man, but a poor black man with MS who walked with a cane and eventually with crutches and who had was different because of disability, which was probably the very first time I felt different was having a father with a disability. But watching him find his own visibility in his character and his strength, you know, seeing him fall and get up and move forward, you know, I was taught that you can't wait for other people to see you because a lot of times they don't even know you're there and they're too busy feeling invisible themselves. So that work has to start with us.

You can't look to be seen outside of yourself. That's the work that that is the constant work that each of us has to do to change the loop in our heads about not mattering. We have to rewrite that story. And that's why we have to share our stories. We have to talk out loud about those feelings so that we make people see me now you see me, I'm tall, I'm outspoken. I am trying to model a new way of being for other people so that there are more stories

out there that count. You know, we have to broaden the definition of what it means to count. That's why I talk about Mindy Kaling is one of the first female and Ali Wong. And every time somebody succeeds and there's a new story on TV about someone with a broader set of definition of being, it opens up the possibility for all of us. And I think that's what we don't understand about the value of diversity. It will ultimately help us all, you know, even people who don't view themselves as different. Expanding that story expands it for all of us, but we each have to do the work to find

the value within ourselves so that we feel like our stories matter, you know. So I tell my story because there are not that many books written by, first of all, there are no other black first ladies. We do know that. So I think that's why it's important for kids to know this story. It's got to be another story out there, all of it. The highs, the lows, the flaws, the dings, the failures, the vulnerabilities. I'm just trying to broaden that definition so that some kid out there will see themselves

in me. You know that you felt, you can talk about it in the book, but you felt very despondent as we all did after January 6th, and then you needed to be there for that inauguration, which was surreal and none of us knew, is this inauguration even going to happen? Is something, is there going to be violence? You seem, and I don't know if the writing the book is part, might be part catharsis, but also we've had some better news as of late about the country, which is people do still seem to believe in voting and in accepting the result of elections.

So I don't know if you're feeling better. I know I'm feeling a little better. There's a lot of work to do. And I'll always have that anxious part of me that says, no, no, no, we're not there yet in my own little life and in the country at large, but I'm wondering if you're just feeling a little better now. Yeah. And we're also back out in the world with each other, so we can't underestimate how

much that isolation helped to reinforce some old wrong stories that we were telling ourselves, because what we couldn't do that we need as humans is that we weren't connecting, right? We were stuck in our houses in our sameness just with ourselves, with our own loops and being fed by the news loops that are limited to. And we weren't having any interactions. And the only person that was out there talking was that president. And all his messages were negative. It was all negative, right?

And still is. And still is, right? But there was nothing filling the gap. There was nothing on the other side, and that's what I try to remind people in the end of the book about reminding people the importance of going high. It's not just a motto, it's a necessity. We respond directly to the messages that we put in our heads and the messages that feed us.

And if we put negative energy out there, that's what we get back. So hope isn't, it's not just a catchphrase, I believe in it. Even though I can be cynical and down, I think for those of us who have a platform, it's our obligation to put that energy out there to stay high because people do feed off of that. So people were feeding off of negative energy. Now that voice is not so dominant. We're out, we're seeing one another again, we're running into each other.

People are a little cranky or than usual, but it is better to fill up that space with real interaction. And I think, quite frankly, if I were in charge, I would make us go back to work, go back to school. I don't think it's a healthy thing for us as a society to work from our homes, to be isolated in our comfort zones where I think we need it. Now, however that looks, maybe we would define it differently, maybe we have more flexibility, but I think as a human race in this country, we need to be with each other on a regular

basis. We need community. We don't do well in isolation. We just feed on bad energy and we have nothing new coming in. Even having a nice conversation with somebody in a line to get a cup of coffee can make you feel better, right? Saying hello to somebody, having one good interaction can erase all the bad that happens, but we lost that for two years.

And it's really hard to get people to come back. But I think they slowly are. My people don't want to come back, but not because of COVID. It's you. They're just... It's you, COVID. They've had enough. They've had more than enough.

They're going out with your wife in the... What was he? He's the HVAC Repairman. The HVAC Repairman. Yes, yes. His name is Stephen. His name is Stephen. I hope they're very happy together.

I am very conscious of your time and that you've been so generous with me and I don't want to take too much of it, so I want to end by saying I loved your book. It really spoke to me, even though people at first glance would say, well, what's the message that Michelle Obama has that's going to resonate with Kona? I think it's going to resonate with lots of people because we're all struggling with these things. Yep, yep. And my only quibble with you is that you talk about having all your friends over for a Camp

David party and there was no junk food and no liquor. Well, that didn't last long. Yeah. I'm not, if you're ever tempted to invite me anywhere, I'm not coming, I'm just telling you up front. Well, we brought the liquor back because no one would come back. They were like, we got to have wine and I was like, okay, all right, that's in the chapter about friendship.

Yeah. It's like you can't have it your way all the time. Yeah, exactly. That's a tool. There's going to be someone. That's right. Yeah. Well, always...

Well, I love talking to you. I mean, I really do, Kona. You know, you are one of the most thoughtful people out here using your platform to really help people work stuff out. And that's what we need because there's somebody locked away that they don't have a friendship community. And I know that they are relying on these kind of conversations to give them light. You always use your light for a good purpose.

Well, thank you. So I'm always delighted to be in conversation. So I am making my wife listen to this one. And don't leave them for Steve, just wait. To be fair, he's really good at what he does. Our air conditioning has never run better. Anyway, Michelle Obama, thank you so much. Thank you.

Such a treat and onward and do your good works. You too. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian and Matt Gorely, produced by me, Matt Gorely, executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Salotaroff and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Year Wolf, theme song by the White Stripes, incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples, engineering by Eduardo Perez, additional production support by Mars Melnick, talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista and Britt Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message.

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