Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - President Barack Obama

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

President Barack Obama feels ambivalent about being Conan O’Brien’s friend. The 44th President of the United States sits down with Conan to discuss making the decision to enter public service, his lifelong love of writing and latest book A Promised Land, why it’s not as hard as it looks to be funny as the president, and persevering with optimism in the 21st century. Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone].For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.

Hi, my name is Barack Obama, and I feel ambivalent about being Conan O'Brien's friend. Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking blues, find the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are gonna be friends. Yes, I can tell that we are gonna be friends. Hello there, and welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. This is not your normal episode, I've just got to be upfront about it. I've had the pleasure of interviewing many terrific guests, luminaries, stars, but today we will be talking to President Barack Obama. Oh, you say we.

Okay, I should get into this. It's not we. It's not we. And it couldn't be we. I will be talking to President Obama. No, actually you couldn't have been there, either of you, because there's something called a secret service background check. Sona, do you admit that you've committed some petty thefts that you've admitted to in the past? Yeah, but it doesn't mean I can't meet a president, because also I've never been caught. You admitted to it on the air, they were aware of that. But the statute of limitations was up, and I would have been allowed to be in the same room as him, I think.

No, no, no. I was quite certain that you wouldn't pass the background check. I mean, first of all, you've admitted to shoplifting. You're a shoplifter. I've got a shoplifter. I was a shoplifter. You were a shoplifter, who's never been, and you've never actually gone through the criminal justice system, because you evaded capture. So for those reasons, what am I going to do? For those reasons, there's nothing I can do. What did Matt do? Yeah.

Well, Matt, apparently you've been involved in other podcasts, other than this one. You know what? And I'm not going to fight that one. Yeah. And the president wanted to know what kind of podcasts they were, were they mainstream, or was it some kind of niche, comedic, you know, bullshittery. And the bad news came in, so I couldn't bring you, I couldn't risk it. He got a one line report from me that just said, podcast slumming. And that was it. And I get it. Yeah. It was cool. I will say that just a little behind the scenes magic. I flew to DC. We set up our podcast little studio there with the help of Will Beckton and Aaron Blair.

Oh, they got to go. Oh, yeah, of course. That must have been fun for them. Yeah, apparently. Well, apparently no shoplifting among those guys. Oh, please. Will and Blair, both very shifty. Oh, we did find out that Will set fire to a silo about six years ago, but it was accidental. Yeah. He lit the chicken on fire and the chicken ran to the silo. So, yeah, it's one of those things that you just can't foresee.

But anyway, Secret Service didn't have any problem with that. They say that stuff happens all the time. Yeah, they said what happens on a rural soy farm is none of our business. So anyway, my point is that flew to DC. There we're all set up and ready to go. And it was this sort of hotel suite that we got. And I was in this other area of the suite. There was like this fancy coffee machine in the suite, like a little kitchen and a fancy coffee machine. And I was staring at it when I hear President Obama come into the podcast space with his entourage. And he just was very, do you guys remember this? Blair, do you remember it? Blair Will. He was very much an Adam. Hello, hello. He was very, an Adam.

And he was very much like, hello, hello over the, you guys can speak, can't you? He was very chill. He fist bumped all of us. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. And then I went from, I went from my fist bump and he left me hanging. Yeah. Which I think was appropriate. But he walked in and he was very much like, hello, hello, hello, how's it going? And he had that. And I started laughing and I couldn't stop laughing. And I walked up to President Obama and I just, I was laughing. And he was looking at me like, what are you laughing for? And I said, I've been laughing because you sound just like a Barack Obama impersonator. And he went, I guess I do. And then he said, you know, my favorite one I think is, I think Jordan Peele.

I think Jordan Peele did the best Obama impression. And we sort of were chatting about Obama impressions and he was grading them like, which ones he left. Oh my God. That's so cool. Like immediately we were nerding out on comedy, which was really fun. Oh, that's cool. But yeah. He must have been so nice. Oh, you know what, you know what I love? You'll never know how nice it was. It was just fantastic. No, you've done a few things with him over the years and I've always gotten so close. I've gotten you close a couple of times to meeting President Obama when I've done various functions that he's involved with.

The White House Correspondence Dinner. Yeah. And you were there. Washington. But I can't, I can't. I've tried to get you close a couple of times and I tried to get you to meet him. But something about you, I think. What? The Secret Service is always creating a, they're just, they keep you back. They keep me back. They look a little, you look a little cuckoo.

I think you're jealous he might like me more than he likes you. Yeah. Well, okay. And Gourley, you're going to side with that idea? Yeah. And also you've turned us into lifelong Republican voters. Well, I am, I am sorry that you guys didn't get to be there, but, you know, we wanted to, we wanted to keep it small. And I wanted to protect President Obama from any potential embarrassment by two yokels. One a career criminal, the other a known over podcast producer, too many podcasts, too much strange content, too niche. Anyway, I hope you will forgive me and you'll understand, but this interview goes a little longer. And as you can imagine, we thought it was better to chat more with President Barack Obama.

So there will be no segment at the end. But listen all the way through because I really did enjoy this conversation a lot. It was very meaningful to me. My guest today was the 44th President of the United States. It was a delight to talk to him about so many things. We cover a lot of ground, including his new book, A Promise Land, which is available now. President Barack Obama, welcome. Okay, let's talk about this ambivalent, ambivalent. That's what I get. I flew to Washington. I think that's probably why I feel ambivalent. I'm feeling a little pressure, you know, because you've gone to a lot of effort.

Would it calm you down if you knew I was going to be in D.C. anyway? Okay. Yeah, there's a boat show in town that I never miss. There's a yacht that I have my eye on. I never miss a chance. First of all, obviously it goes without saying it's a huge honor that you would talk to me. We have crossed paths many times over the years, including with Christmas Elves. Oh, God. Yes. There have been so many events that I've done over the years, some more prestigious than others. I was hosted, I'm not going to say had to, but I was asked to, would you host Christmas in Washington, which is a show that I'm sure was near and dear to your heart. You look thrilled, by the way.

You, your wife, the kids, just delighted to spend your valuable Christmas time in an armory in Washington. And I was one of the performers and boy, is that a dead room. That's the deadest room I've ever worked with in comedy. But I remember the closing act was, remember the rapper Psy? Yes. He did Gangnam Style and he did it with a bunch of women dressed as reindeer. And it was hilarious. And I looked out, you were laughing as hard as anyone I've seen laugh in my lifetime. And I felt so good because I thought, yes. He brought joy to me in what was, let's face it, a pretty stiff deal.

Yeah. I don't know if you remember, but he actually came out and pretended to do sort of a cheesy karaoke version of the Christmas song. Yes. Right? So he's like, and he doesn't speak English very well, or if at all. And he said, chestnuts, open, on and on. And everybody's kind of looking at each other like, is this for real? Yeah. There were actually acts in that show where you'd have people singing Christmas songs who shouldn't. And so it was possible that this was the act. That he had made the wrong choice. That he'd made the wrong choice. And then about, you know, what, maybe two verses in, then suddenly he starts breaking into Gangnam Style.

Yes. It was fantastic. You were so happy. I was pleased. Partly because I was really worried he was going to go through the whole Christmas song. And what I remember most about that show is that, I think I don't want to say how to, I was asked to do it twice. And again, not a comedy environment. I shared the bill with Justin Bieber. Now this is Justin Bieber when he's quite a young man. Did I mispronounce his name?

I think I might have said Justin Bieber. Did you say Bieber? Because he also did the Easter egg roll. Right. At the White House. So at one of them, my daughters were mortified because I'm announcing who is singing. And I said, and we're so lucky to have Justin Bieber here because I didn't know the kid. Well, he was a very sweet young, young man.

Yeah. He was, he was, he was, he had just broken out. He had just broken out, but he was a huge deal. And I was there, there was a line, and this is where I really felt to you in these moments because your humanity is always present. You're a real person. You didn't become another entity when you became president. You're a real person who's there enduring these very long lines of photo ops, which I, I could just observe from a distance. And I've had a tiny fraction of this myself where you feel your soul leaving your body. And I'm in a long line and my son wants to take a picture with you and my daughter and my son at the time is eight, seven or eight years old or six years old.

And he's having a full on meltdown. He hasn't eaten. My wife and I are trying to find food for him. He isn't having food and he's having a full on meltdown. And he sits down on the ground and we're saying, you've got to stand up. You're going to meet the president and the first lady. And he said, I don't want to meet the president. I can see you and you are 15 feet away smiling and shaking hands with Turner executives and pretending to have a good time.

He's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And just then Justin Bieber, who's in front of us online decides to intervene and he turns around and he puts his hand on my son's head and he rubs his hair and he goes, hey, chill little man. And my son turns around and said, stop it. Leave me alone. That is a great story. No one has ever, I wanted my son, I was telling the Secret Service, if you've got a shot, take it. Take this kid out. I've still got a daughter.

I will not be embarrassed in front of the president, but no one has spoken to Justin Bieber like that since. And I think it would have. I wonder if it changed Justin. It might have been. I mean, it's possible that he thought, you know what, this nice guy thing is not working for you. Yeah. Yeah. He did get a tattoo.

He did really change after that. I noticed. Interesting. Backtrack just for a second. You made an important parenting observation. Michelle figured this out faster than I did. Half of misbehavior or crankiness with kids is they're sleepy or they're hungry. You know, it's hard when you're doing these events and you got to dress them up.

But generally speaking, you know, when young parents ask for advice, it's like, just make sure they're fed and they're getting naps. And that solves a big chunk of problems. What you learn quickly, what my wife learned is you got to have some crackers or you got to have a juice box or a fruit roll up in the purse. Yes. And when this meltdown was happening, I'll never forget what you, I think you realize this. When I was reading your book, I realized how aware you are of what the presidency does, how this, there's a force field around you. But what happens is three hours before you show up, no one can leave the building. Anytime I've done an event for you, they shut it down, the whole atmosphere changes.

So my wife had thought, I'll just go out and get a juice box. Can't do it. It's your fault. I mean, it's a military operation and you have to think in those terms. I mean, Michelle, and she's a very well organized person anyway. But like if we had long flights with the girls, she would, with military precision, she'd be rolling out the coloring books and the goldfish. And it's all timed to 15, you know, in 15 minute increments just to distract them. Right.

Except was it like kale and things like that? No, you know what? That got oversold to the public. Well, no, I'm not, I'm not going to claim that it got oversold. I think she, I'm not going to undermine her brand here on your podcast. No, she believes in health eating. But actually, she's the first one to acknowledge that like if you're on a long plane trip in the same way that like we tried to limit screen time. Right.

But when the iPad was invented and you're on a coach flight to Hawaii, it's nine hours. Dude, take out the iPad. Just let them zone out completely. Rules go out the window. I let my five year old watch, you know, nine and a half weeks of the surprise, like I didn't care if it was soft core. I didn't just, whatever it is, if it's going to shut you up, let's get. Mine never, because you're really dating yourself. I mean.

Well, let's get into that because. Let's shift off into another topic. What are we here to talk about? Okay. Well, we're going to, I just wanted, I wanted to start on the ways that, that I feel that I relate to you as, as a person. And then I want to talk about your book, which I absolutely love. But I wanted to start by saying, it occurred to me that we do have things in common. We, similar ages, both on the campus and in Cambridge at Harvard around the same time.

Yeah. Things have gone so well for you. And I've taken such a different path. Well, let me ask you something. Where did I, there were choices. I read your book and I read it like someone looking at a roadmap trying to wonder, this guy did everything right. Everything right. Don't, don't you find, and look, I know you're joking and.

No, no, no, no, I'm not kidding. Well, you are. I'm very much in debt right now financially. I have a podcast that I'm running out of a hotel. You were the leader of the free world and icon. No, I'm not joking. You are joking a little bit. You both have been lucky.

Here's one thing that I don't know if you, if you agree with. I am very suspicious to folks who have been really successful in their fields and don't attribute a big chunk of it to luck. Yes. Like if they don't acknowledge it, I see this more in the business world. You know, you'll meet, you know, CEOs or. Right. Folks who've made a lot of money and I worked for everything. This, this is all, you know.

Right. And if you want my advice, you know, you, you need to put your nose to grindstone and dare to be great and take risks. And, you know, when I hear that, I always say, well, yes, you, you do have to work hard to succeed, but there are a lot of people who work really hard. Yes. And don't necessarily succeed in those ways. They might succeed in other ways, satisfaction from their work or whatever. But, you know, when you end up hosting, you know, a late night show or you end up being president of the United States, part of it is, is luck. There were a whole bunch of breaks that happened to you along the way.

And sometimes there are doors that open that you were willing to walk through, partly because you're crazy or you have a irrational confidence about yourself. That doesn't entirely. I can relate to that. I walked through such a door once and had no reason. And America agreed that I really, at 30, should not have been a host, should not have been on TV. And that was, and so I, in a small microcosm, I know what you're talking about. It's the same kind of thing. And so the number of times in which the whole arc of my life could have been entirely different or derailed.

I can chronicle them partly because that's one of the values of writing about the presidency or the campaign or the previous books I wrote. It forces you to look back and reflect and you say, oh, well, if that person hadn't done this or if this hadn't worked out that way or it would have been entirely different. For me, the thing that I probably do have, I can take credit for and have some control over is the decision I made to, in some fashion, be involved in public service. Not necessarily elected office, but I think no matter what, whether I was mayor of Chicago or just was working as a community organizer still or the direction of saying, let me figure out how to give something that makes the larger world or my corner of the world a little bit better and figuring out how to work with other people to do that. I think that was something that I can probably take some credit for. My favorite presidents have always been writers. I admire presidents that care about words and how they go together.

And my favorite president, Lincoln, you know, top five American writers. Right. No, if you judge him just as a writer, he would still have been an extraordinary American figure. Yeah. I love that I'm talking to you in a secure environment and we hear sirens outside. They're coming to take me away. The kind of Brian got to Obama, get him out. You know, it's really interesting to me that Lincoln, great writer, I think about this a lot.

Teddy Roosevelt really thought of himself as a writer. Jefferson, obviously you talk about as a writer. It's not something that's always common with our presidents, but you've always cared about writing. And I really like your style, your pro style is very lean. It is very, like you choose your words very carefully. And I was reading your book and I was thinking, who do you admire as a writer? Yeah. As writers, who are you?

Yeah. If you wanted to channel someone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting. I mean, I write about in the book that I was kind of a goof off, near to well, partier, most of through high school. Right. And that probably the saving grace that made me a decent student and got me into a decent college was I was a reader and I learned to write from reading.

Right? Basically imitation. You read folks and you say, I like how that person put those words together. And so, you know, they're classic writers like Hemingway or Faulkner, others, you know, who you read and you go, hmm, that person puts a sentence together. Sometimes Faulkner's don't end. True. Like Hemingway really puts a sentence together and Faulkner will put 60 sentences together

and forget to put a period in there. True. Different styles. Yeah. Different styles. You know, when I wrote my first book, Dreams from My Father, and I'd never written a book before and I'd never had anything published before other than like some student magazine stuff.

Right. I can tell you that probably the writers I read most carefully were essayists. What they wrote was nonfiction, but it was literature. Right. And probably the best example I can use is James Baldwin. Yeah. Like James Baldwin, I would read and I would just be dazzled by how precise he could capture really difficult feelings or concepts, but they were vivid and there was a story behind

them. And I'd say, man, you know, how'd he do that? Because there was a British writer, V.S. Neipol. It was kind of a cranky guy, didn't really agree with his politics, but could just put together a sentence and so I'd read that. And then fiction, Toni Morrison, I remember reading Song of Solomon, which is still one of my favorite novels and I thought, you know, if in a nonfiction way, I could write that

way. And you know. Now, there's one question I did want to ask you is, you are a natural writer and I was curious, would you ever consider another genre? No. I'd never write fiction. But I don't have the imagination for it. You know, who does is Malia, my daughter, you know, she who's who's taken up writing

and she was interested in screenwriting and directing and she's in a writer's room right now for a show and, you know, and, and yeah, she is actually shockingly being paid to. You should have called me first and said, this is this is the worst, it's the worst food you'll ever eat. I've been in many a writer's room and some of the worst people you'll be around. But it's all about does she love it? Yeah. She loves writing.

But, but what I was going to say is that she just even from a young age, even when she couldn't kind of put together plots or, you know, stuff didn't necessarily make sense. But she could breathe life into a character. So you'd read some things she wrote and suddenly the character is alive and you're kind of wondering, well, what are they going to do and you wouldn't be surprised to meet him, you know, at the bar downstairs. And so you kind of, I think there are certain people who have that gift. I don't, I don't have that gift.

I have the ability to observe what I see and write what I've experienced. Yeah. But, but I, you know, the, the magic of, of some, and it's interesting, I got to know Toni Morrison. I got to know there are other writers like Marilyn Robinson who wrote Gilead and some other books that I love. They're the kind of folks who, when you ask them what the process is, well, you know, a voice came to me and the characters started telling me a story and I just wrote it down

and, you know, they have that sort of mystical channeling of something. I feel that way about songwriting, meaning it is complete mystery to me. I'm a amateur guitarist musician and I don't even, there's a, there's a chasm between me and writing a song that I don't even, I'm not even interested in trying to cross. I don't understand it. But what you're, what you've more or less said is there's no series of romance novels coming from you. No, no, no.

Detectives. You'd make a great, you could write a great detective story. I dig a good thriller. You know. That's right. You like Clancy. I, I love Clancy. I love John LeCarré is, was outstanding, a great writer.

You know, Walter Mosley, Easy Rollins Mysteries, excellent. But that's not my, you know, here's the analogy. My wife and daughters tease me a lot about everything and I've noticed that. Yeah. I'm, I'm basically the brunt of all jokes in our household and one example of things they tease me about is, is my dancing. They're all confident that they're superior dancers. They don't think I'm terrible.

They think I'm okay for a dad, which I guess that's the best you're going to do. But part of the reason they don't think I'm terrible is because I, I, I stay in my lane. I stay in the cut, right? I go back and forth, you know, I don't do karate kicks and a bunch of those moves. And I think the same. This is where you, this is where you and I differ, by the way. I'm sure. I have long legs.

And I use them and I, no one's safe within six feet of it. Exactly. I've seen, I think at a couple of our parties, I, I, I seem to remember some karate. I wasn't invited. I got in. But, but writing's the same way. Yes. You know, you kind of know what you know.

Basketball is the same way. The, the, in pickup basketball, you don't mind a guy who's not a star, but you just want him to stay in his, in his comfort zone. You know, you don't want, if the guy can't shoot, then, you know, don't jack up threes. You know, if, if, if you're a big man there to, to rebound, just rebound me. I find it hilarious when sometimes I've been playing basketball and someone who really has no business shooting threes and does it with that confidence of a Steph Curry, Annie, it's going over the rim, it's going in swimming pool and they keep taking them and every time

they do it, they're like, nothing but net and no, it's the other thing and this relates, I think, uh, to, uh, to president's writing books. I've known a bunch of celebrity types who have that irrational confidence on the basketball court. They think because they're good at singing that they must be great at shooting and or some movie stars, they think, you know, because I'm beloved, I must be a Hooper. Those guys are annoying. The same thing is true with presidents and writing.

It's like, all right, you know, write, write your presidential memoirs. Don't, don't, don't pretend like suddenly, uh, you know, you're going to write the great American novel. Right. I have a very good speech, you know, uh, stay in your lane. Okay. And I just want to stress again, if at any point you want to name names, if there's a celebrity out there, a movie star, feel free.

We know, we know it's Liam, we all know it's Liam Neeson and, uh, let me tell you something. I know, um, I, I, I try to stay humble, but as the former president, that should be enough for you, Conan. I shouldn't have to also drop names on your show. All right. And yet it's not enough. One of the things that I know you set out to do in this book, and I, uh, thought you did it brilliantly is you set out to put the reader into your position so that we would

know what it was like to consider running for the presidency, start to run, start to realize that you have a chance, start to realize that you're going to get the nomination, start to realize that you could really win this whole thing and then hold the office. And I will tell you, it was terrifying. And I, I really do mean terrifying in a way to me as a reader that I thought I understand how scary that must be. And you are almost, uh, you know, an emoji for calm confidence. You are very placid, you are very cool.

You let us know in this book that you had a panic attack when you realized, wait a minute, I could win this thing, which I understand. Yeah. It's interesting. I, uh, there's a scene in the book where I, I'm still at the threshold of having to make a decision about, uh, whether or not to run and, um, uh, you know, I've gone through some briefings and I've, you know, had conversations with a bunch of folks and I, I describe a scene talking to Teddy Kennedy and Harry Reid and they're actually shockingly, uh, encouraging

about this thing. And I come home from a trip, um, Michelle's already asleep and, and I'm falling asleep and I suddenly start up and I am just, um, you know, my heart is beating and I, I get out of bed and I go get a drink and, and what I realize is that what I'm, uh, you know, what is, what is, uh, creating anxiety is not the idea that I'd run and lose, but it's the idea that you'd run and win. Yes. Uh, it's, it's hard to describe, uh, the moment and, and it usually happens in stages, but,

but there comes a moment where you realize the enormity of the responsibility. You understand in the abstract, but there's a difference between thinking, yeah, you know, gosh, I'm commander in chief and I have to go around making decisions and, uh, trying to get legislation passed. There's a, there's a difference between that abstract understanding and this visceral gut punch that everything you read in the newspapers or see in the news is suddenly your responsibility. Right. That, if you, if you look, if you open the, you know, uh, the, the front page of the New

York times or the Wall Street Journal, every item on there in some fashion, somebody expects you to do something about and, and, and that is a, you know, that, that, that's a different impression. The thing that, um, the thing that I also try to describe though, and I'm glad, you know, you said that it gave you a sense of what it was like part, part of my goal here is to demystify it, not in a, you know, sensationalistic way, but, but to remind people, there's a human enterprise every aspect of it, you know, running for president, being president, um, it's not out of the zone of what everybody experiences and work and life and, you know,

the stakes may be higher, but, but it, it's recognizable. But part of what I also try to describe is this, the, the thing that made me calm through that process was also realizing, you know what, it, it, if, if I was true to why I was doing it, if I had kind of a North Star and, you know, working hard, it goes without saying, but also surrounding myself with people who I trusted, could check me, uh, would bring me new perspectives if I ran a good process. If I did all those things, then I could at least have confidence, even if I didn't always get things right, that nobody could be making decisions any better than I was doing, right?

Right. That, you know, I, I, I had put together a, a organization with integrity and I was operating with integrity within it and, you know, you're still going to screw up, but because it's so, you know, it can be overwhelming and there's just a lot of stuff and, um, and, and that is something I try to communicate to, to my kids and, and to young people, I, you know, if you're, if you're directionally correct and you're, uh, part of the team of people who are, who are doing the right thing and are willing to self-reflect and admit doubt, but then still act, not be paralyzed by it, you know, you, usually you can get some good

stuff done. Yeah. You definitely helped yourself a lot by having a very healthy family dynamic, but there's an element here that came out when I read the book that really resonated with me that I think is very important for people to realize, which is you have it in your, part of your character is not to forget who you are. Right. So we all watched you become president as citizens.

We watched it happen. The whole world watched it happen. You take us inside it. You become this iconic figure. There's the shepherd fairy poster hope and you are one of the most now recognized images in the world. That tends to, I don't want to say destroy people, but corrupt them. It just, it, it, it, it could very easily do that.

What you do throughout, and it comes out in the book is you're constantly reaching out to friends. You're constantly reaching out to people in your life. You're channeling your grandmother and saying, my grandmother came from Kansas. Depression. There's this little white lady banker from Kansas, from Peru, Kansas, that's where she was born. Yeah.

Not, not Peru. Kansas. So in South America, they're saying it wrong. That's what the folks in Kansas think, no doubt about it. But you know, what I took away from that is that there is a refusal that's part of who you are to surrender to that. Now, one of the things that comes with going to a fancy college that I experienced was every third person, when I was at Harvard, was telling me, I'm going to be president

of the United States someday. They were 19 years old and they were assholes. I don't know how else to say it. And some of them, you know, as we know, may end up someday being president, but that was not you. And I think those people would gladly surrender to any of the things that you could have surrendered to, whereas you are saying, I'm not going to do that. You have a sense of irony about the whole thing, which to me is one of the key components

of your character that comes out in the book. I appreciate that. Yeah. I do think, you know, Michelle and I talk about this. People ask, you know, what are you most proud of coming out of the presidency? And I'll say, you know, the Affordable Care Act and the Paris Accords, all kinds of stuff. You know what, coming out sane and our kids are sane, and we kept our friends and people who knew us before I had gotten on the national stage think I'm the same guy.

Three of my closest friends are a fisherman, an accountant, and a manager at a yogurt plant in Oregon, known them all these years and we still hang out and we're still just as close. And that I do attribute in part to having a great partner in Michelle who's as grounded as anybody. And if you know her mom, you know, and her family, you know where she got that from. And I do attribute some of that to my grandmother and, you know, there's a Midwestern sort of a stoic, no nonsense, don't get too high, don't get too low, don't brag about what

you got, you know, you don't know how long you're going to have it. And that sensibility, my grandmother did channel into me. I didn't even recognize it fully. That's an example of where writing is a useful exercise because sometimes during the course of writing you kind of, I loved her and I knew how important she was to our whole family. But in the process of writing about her, I realized how much, you know, I have a line in the book after I lose the New Hampshire primary, which was sort of a seminal part of our campaign.

Right. Because we had just one eye. Everybody was about. Riding high. Riding high. Everybody's coordinating us and then suddenly just got slapped out and as I write in the book, how we managed New Hampshire, you know, the famous, yes, we can speech that I gave. One of the most important speeches I gave was actually after a loss.

People actually don't remember that. And my staff used to say that me looking calm in that storm gave them a lot of confidence and actually helped us get through this. And I realized I actually sometimes operate best most clearly when all hell's breaking loose. There's a section of your book called In The Barrel and it really is, it's a really nice piece of writing too. You have this part of the book where you talk about what it's like to be in your position

to be the president of the United States. And you're not just saying you, you can read this book and you can read that image and think this is undertaking any endeavor that's complicated where you don't have full control. And you say it's like going over a barrel in Niagara Falls and, you know, I won't try to paraphrase it because it's really beautifully written, but it is a great description. It's a really visceral description of, there's nothing I can do except trust that this barrel is going to rise. If it doesn't, I've got nothing to worry about anyway.

But I have often channeled my grandfather, my mother's father, great guy, you know, kind of always reminded me of W.C. Fields when we were growing up. And he, you know. Did you get part of your sense of humor from him? Oh, definitely. Very funny, very funny man, very funny people on both sides of my family, but everyone called him woofer because he knew some dance steps. He was a policeman in Worcester.

He directed traffic in downtown Worcester and he made, I think the most he ever made was $55 a week, but he had a blast. He enjoyed his life and he had a famous, during the 1938 hurricane, he had built a brand new garage and it blew away. And his wife, my grandmother came out and said, oh, Jim, Jim, the garage blew away. It blew away. It's completely gone. You just built it.

It's brand new and it's gone. He said, don't worry. I locked it. And it was this, and so there have been many occasions, some involving you where I've been about to go on stage and you're in the audience or I'm following you at the White House Correspondent Center, which is a real treat. And we'll talk about that. While you get to go first, still baffles any comedian.

It's so unfair because you destroy and then, but back to my grandfather. Where do you think back to his attitude? What I do is I'll channel that spirit and I'll think, I'm some Irish guy. My people come from Central Massachusetts. It's stunning that I'm here talking to you right now in a hotel room that I believe I'm paying for, for a podcast. And I never lose, I think what you talked about earlier and you mentioned it and you talk about it in the book during the financial crisis, talking to all these titans of Wall

Street who are so entitled and acting like, well, our feelings are hurt. You said something and it seems like you got us in this mess, guys. We got a, and you're trying to negotiate a way through it, but it really did make me realize that I always go back and I channel my grandfather and I think, I'm not even really supposed to be here. You know, I'm not. And you locked the garage. I locked the garage.

I love that. It's a great benefit of writing or just reflecting about your family. So often when we think about our past and our families or the stories that are told about that process, it's all about trauma. Families are messy and sometimes you have to learn about, why am I doing destructive behavior? It's because I'm patterning after something I saw when I was a kid. The flip side is we maybe sometimes don't do enough to reflect on the strengths that we have, that we got just from seeing your grandfather, my grandmother handling their

business, having a sense of buoyancy or resilience. I do think that, you know, that's something I've, Michelle and I both have always tried to transmit to our kids is, you know, the benefit of keeping perspective is, you know, it allows you to maintain your grace both when things are going well, but also when things are going bad. Now, just an aside, when it comes to doing standup, it's easier as president. Let's face it. You know, I'm glad you brought this up.

I'm so glad you brought this up because this is the cross of this interview right now. The fact is, is that the bar for being funny as president is so low, it's a little bit like, you know, the bear who hoops, you know, at the circus, you're already ahead of the game because you're a bear and you're hula hooping. So everybody's impressed. I'm going to disagree with you. If a human hula hoops, there are a lot of people who hula hoops. Okay.

I'm going to disagree with you. First of all, I've done two White House Correspondents dinners, one under President Clinton and one, you know, with you. And both, I had, you know, was happy with my material. I worked really hard, but it really struck me. So, you know, your whole book is about, I'm going to tell everyone what it's like to be President Barack Obama. I'm going to tell you what it's like to be me for a second because I was up on that

dais. And first of all, the first lady could not have been nicer to me and just such as, you know, just such a lovely person and really putting me at ease. But then you get up, you get to go first. You have the best material. And also I'm going to tell you, no, you're not a bear doing a hula hoop. You have the best delivery, comedic delivery of anyone. I think Reagan had great comedic delivery, but just as a comic, I think you have the

best delivery of anyone I've seen in national office. You got up there, you start destroying, literally destroying. Now my job is I have all my jokes on a blue card. I have to make sure that I don't, because I follow you, if you touch an area, I have to pull that card. That is a disadvantage. And I acknowledged, I thought that was unfair to you guys, but I didn't care because I wanted to look good.

No, no. And that's the reason the president goes first is because he wants to look good. I understand. And so, you know, if you bomb, nobody cares. Sir, sir, sir, we all understand why you do what you do. It's no mystery why these things are happening, but the funniest part was the first lady was chatting with me as you're destroying, just complete destruction. I've got my cards and I'd say, term limits, damn it.

He mentioned term limits. And I'd start trying to pull the card out and she would say, by the way, does your wife like, and I'm thinking, you've got to let me go. See, I also set her up to distract you to take me down. The worse you are, the better I look. That was our general theory about the correspondence. Well, I remembered you finished absolute destruction and then there's no pallet cleanser in between. No, you go right up there.

What's so funny is you last thing you say, you like drop the mic. People are just molten. They're melt. They're either humans or just have melted. There's just joy still resonating, bouncing off the rooms. And then a voice of God just goes, ladies and gentlemen, Conan O'Brien. And I can hear my shoe leather squeak as I walk up to the podium and I go, everybody. And you can see they're all eating again.

They don't care. Clinking. Yeah. Clinking. And I look over at you and you've got the biggest smile. You think it's really funny. I do. I used to enjoy watching you guys just, you know, sort of, well, what it was, it's a whole

and you got to dig yourself out of that hole. I remember you. I got lucky and I found a, there was a mallet that someone had left there that you didn't use. No, I don't know. Someone used it and I found it and I just started banging the mallet and that's sort of got people's attention. Props work.

I am a props comic at heart and I know that you had the mallet there because you might have used it. You should have brought the dog with a cigar. We wanted to bring him today. I love that guy. Triumph, the insult comic dog. Yes. Yeah.

No, we thought that was the wrong. We pitched that to your people. I think that would have been great. A secret. Secret service guy. I love the insult dog. A secret service guy named Anton took it away from me as I walked into the room. So that's a bit of a disadvantage.

But yeah, I'm glad you apologized because that sounded like an apology. Sorry. By the way, I think you're between two ferns with Zach Alfenakis. Just from a comedy, I love Zach and I've known him for a long time. Your delivery on that and the way you played it was as good as any comedian could have done. He's actually hard to play against because, look, the truth is that when you and I do, when I'm on your shows, right, whenever I was on one of the late night shows, whether

it was you or Letterman or all these folks, Kimmel, you guys actually go out of your way to make your guests feel good. Right? Right. And then your shtick is, how do I frame and set the guests? You say shtick. I say specialized guests. Yes.

Well, no, I'm complimenting you, so just take it. The point is, is that there is a generosity of how you deal with your guests. Your goal is to make them shine because that means they'll come back on the show. It helps the audience get to know them and they feel comfortable. Somebody like Zach, right, you kind of don't know what he's going to do and he may not mind doing something that actually makes you look stupid, not out of malice, but just because he's so, you know, he's just got a goofy off the wall. He's a sociopath and I say that as a good friend.

He can't distinguish between right and wrong and so Zach can't help it. That's just Zach. I wanted to say that one of the parts of the book that I appreciated the most, and this relates somewhat to comedy, you never lost your sense of the absurd. You never lost your sense that this is madness, that the situation I'm in is crazy and you talk about hanging out with your friends waiting to hear if you've heard, you're about to hear whether or not you're going to be the Democratic nominee and you're hanging out backstage and Stevie Wonder's singing and you said you were with your friends and you're eating chicken

waiting to hear if one of you was going to be. And it was this piece of writing that I thought, okay, in a very tight sentence, you encapsulated all of these absurd. There's one that really stuck out for me in the book and it's when you've been told during this dinner that it was during a military action in Libya that one pilot is missing. A plane has gone down. A plane has gone down and a pilot's missing. Both pilots eject.

One of them lands safely. The other one is out in the Libyan desert. We have no idea whether he survived or not, whether he's been captured or not. There's a search and rescue mission. Meanwhile, I'm at a state dinner in Chile. So you're in this big state dinner with, you'll know his whole name, but a gentleman named Piñera. Piñera.

He's the president Piñera and his lovely wife. I knew that. Sure. And anyway, you said for the next 90 minutes, you're waiting to hear if a human life has been lost or if this person will be saved. For the next 90 minutes or so, I smiled and nodded as Piñera and his wife Cecilia Morel-Montez told us about their children and how they first met and the best seasons to visit Patagonia. At some point, a Chilean folk rock band called Los Javas started to perform what sounded

like a Spanish version of hair. And I read that and I read it as like, that is up there. That is truly comedic writing. You're just reporting what happened, but you have an eye for how absurd this is now fortunately. So no one's in suspense. You get the tap on the shoulder that they've found the missing flyer and he's safe. But you're so many times, I think the most absurd example, a White House Correspondents Dinner that I was not at, that you have planned the Bin Laden raid.

It's been ordered. It's been ordered and your job is now to go and do essentially stand-up comedy in front of the press corps and a bunch of celebrities. And you've got to do that while mentally you have a compartment of your brain that's trying to keep track of where we are in the Bin Laden raid to catch the most notorious criminal in history. And I just thought, okay, I know how to do one of those things, kind of. Never in a million years.

I don't understand how you could do both. Well, it is interesting that the need to keep a bunch of ideas, not just two ideas, but a bunch of ideas in your head at the same time and accept the contradictions of that. And that comes up all the time in the presidency. Look, it comes up in life. It's more vivid in the presidency. You have to be able to focus on the fact that, all right, if I get this decision wrong, maybe the US auto industry collapses.

But I can't be so overwhelmed by that decision that I can't make the decision. I also have to keep in mind that Malia's soccer game is that afternoon. And I promised I was going to stop by. And when I'm there, I've got to be present for her so that she knows that her dad cares about her. And that's your entire world is how Sasha and Malia are growing up. And you've got to keep that in mind at the same time as, you know, you're recognizing that in both circumstances, both raising your daughters and the US auto industry surviving,

the stakes are extraordinarily high and you're going to do your best. But you're also going to at some point make some mistakes and screw up and that's okay. That doesn't mean you should not try to do your best to juggle all this stuff. All those things become part of, you know, the stew of your day to day experience. And part of what I try to communicate in the book is that although it's the kinds of problems are unique to the presidency, juggling work, family, an amazing wife who is fed up with your BS, dealing with people at the office who aren't always as cooperative as you might in my case, Mitch McConnell and John Boehner.

You know that that's- They're close friends of mine. Those are things we all have to deal with. And the one thing I didn't have to deal with as I point out is commuting because everybody came to me. That was helpful. I want to make sure that I don't keep you too long, but there was one area that I wanted to bring up here at the end, which is this is not so much in the book, but it's a theme

that I think you've had that's really resonated with me because people know I'm a history buff, they often say are things now worse than they've ever been because of the state of the world and the last couple of years. And I always try to give them the perspective that things have always been really rough. I've had many people in my staff sometimes come to me and say, is this the worst it's been in the country? And I say, you know, we had a civil war, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people died and it was awful.

And we're still recovering from that, trying to give people a sense of perspective. And I've heard you talk about this a lot that the problems we have today aren't all new. They're different, sometimes they're more potent. But I came across this quote that blew me away. It's by Ulysses S. Grant. But I swear to God, if you didn't know any better, you'd say someone said this yesterday. But this is Ulysses S. Grant.

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's, but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. That could have been said yesterday. And he's saying this in the 1870s. And it goes back to this thing that I sort of wanted to hear you talk just for a second about, which is we've always been a divided nation. I think I said to you once years ago, George Washington had a rough second term.

He was the first guy. And you know, we have had, it's always been a challenge. It's always been an experiment. But am I right that many of the things we're dealing with disinformation, yes, it's more potent now, but it's existed before? Absolutely. First of all, you know, you ask some or people have asked me how I, you know, stay calm. It is true, some of it's just temperament and some of it channeling my grandmother.

A lot of it is just keeping some sort of long-term perspective about human affairs. You know, everything right in front of us always looks like just the worst thing. This has never happened before. All you have to do is go back, you don't have to go back to Ulysses S. Grant in the Civil War, look at 1968, where you have, you know, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King shot in the same year. You've got a democratic convention that is a complete... Street fight.

Street fight. You've got a Vietnam War that is ripping the country apart. You have the FBI engaging in all kinds of behavior that in later years be revealed, you know, was appalling riots in major cities all across the country. And that was... You know, we're just talking 50 years ago. You know, if you really want to get a taste of how bad human affairs can get, then, you know, go back a little further.

There's a reason why our great, great, great grandfathers came from Ireland. This thing called the famine. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Ireland's not a big place. No. Millions of folks couldn't eat because of the bad crop, right? Or you can go back a little further and read about, you know, how Genghis Khan operated

to consolidate his empire. Right. So, what I always tell young people is, if you examine history, then you come to the conclusion that as terrible as things are in so many places and so many corners as much injustice, cruelty, horrible stuff that's going on, the world is healthier, better-educated, kinder, less violent, wealthier, on average than just about any time in human history. Yeah. Now, we've got some big problems that maybe stand outside of history.

If we don't get those right, then we may not recover, right? Climate change being an example. Then you have to really have a long-term perspective and feel okay about us being the dinosaurs and maybe not making it. The planet will survive, but civilization may not if you don't get some of those big irreversible things, right? But when it comes to just human interaction, you know, we make progress. The problem is we just don't make progress in a straight line.

And there's no better example, you know, you just read that passage from Grant. Yeah, that's where there's no better example than the problem of race in America. There is genuine progress, but it is jagged. Ralph Ellison wrote about in which history is like a crap, you know, skitter forward, but it can also skitter backwards and sideways. And when it comes to race in our society, because we never did a full reckoning, because we tried to sometimes get expiation of our sins on the cheap and papered over things and didn't want to talk about things and, you know, as a consequence, it continues to

pop up in ways that I think for our kids' generation, sometimes they're surprised by. It was interesting watching after George Floyd and the protests and Malia and Sasha and their friends were actively involved in a lot of this stuff. It was interesting to see, they took for granted that some stuff had been solved, right? Okay. And I guess maybe we haven't fully taken into account of the fact that African Americans fell deeply in the hole economically as a consequence of slavery and Jim Crow and being excluded from professions and unions and trades, and so there's some catching up to do.

But they didn't think that there was just, they were surprised to see institutionalized racism in such a bare form. And I think that part of what has happened with race in the last few years, and I saw it, I write about it in the presidency with birtherism and some of the stuff that was said about not just me, but my family during the course of my presidency, you know, some of the raw forms of racial prejudice are still there in the surface. But that doesn't negate what is also true, which was I was elected twice. And, you know, there are a lot of non-African American women who really do love Michelle

Obama. I've seen it. I've been at rallies with her and I've seen it. It's insane. Yeah. And it's sincere. And it's not to negate the fact that this younger generation does have a different attitude around race compared to when we were growing up, just as they have genuinely different

attitudes around sexual orientation. And again, it's possible for us to keep those contradictory ideas in mind at the same time, that the progress is real, but it doesn't mean it's inevitable or permanent. It doesn't mean that we don't have to nurture it and encourage it. It doesn't mean that it can't go backwards. You know, you mentioned the problem of disinformation. Look, there's always been disinformation. You know, you had like a father, Coughlin, who was...

On the radio. He most popular, you know, he was Rush Limbaugh, but probably had a bigger audience, certainly had a bigger market share of the radio audience back then and was, you know, flat out, anti-Semitic and nativist and all kinds of bad impulses that are there in the underbelly of American culture. So, this stuff's not new. We have to be vigilant, we have to work hard, we have to push and be resilient. But part of being resilient is also recognizing where progress is made and it's hard to be

hopeful and resilient if you think that no matter what you do, it's a bad outcome. You know, you say hopeful because you cling to those moments where, oh, I did this work and it made a difference and that, I think, is what I hope I've instilled not just in my daughters and Michelle's instilled in our daughters, I hope that our body of work that continues is instilling in young people that sense of, yeah, it's hard, you're not going to get 100% of what you're hoping for, there'll still be injustice and racism and ignorance. But you can make things better and I think I mentioned in the book, I used to tell some of my younger staff, you know, when they were a little disheartened by some of our setbacks

and frustrations or compromises we had to make, better's good, I'll take better every time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been an absolute joy as a fan, but as really as also just a fan of your writing and, as I said, your ability to be human and humane and funny and see yourself in a comical way at times and then communicate all that to us in this book is, it's a real gift.

Well, I appreciate that and you're my friend and, you know, friends are important. You said you're ambivalent. I'm not ambivalent after this show, I think. I think, I think now, now I feel, I feel fully invested in our friendship. Well, I'll be by tonight. No, I, well, you know. What do you mean no? I know you're going to eat dinner somewhere and I intend to be there.

But you know, there's that concentric circle of friends. I understand. Oh, yeah. You're still on the outer ring. You're still on the outer ring. By the way, I am the wise ass white guy taking threes that don't go anywhere near. I am that guy. I can tell.

Yes. And I do shout nothing, nothing but net every time it goes up, regardless. And I won't stop taking those threes. And you're definitely not my, you're definitely, you're my friend, but not my basketball teammate. It was good to see it was, it was fun to be with you. You know what, sir? It's an honor. Tell your, tell your family, tell your crew, I said hi.

I don't talk to them. Okay. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian and Matt Gorely, produced by me, Matt Gorely, executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solotaroff and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson at Ear Wolf, theme song by the White Stripes, incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer

Samples, engineering by Will Beckton, talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista and Brick Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend on Apple podcasts,

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