Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Sean Penn

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

Actor Sean Penn feels relieved to be Conan O’Brien’s friend. Sean sits down with Conan to discuss finding a balance between art and advocacy, the modern preoccupation with optics over empathy, and working with CORE to make positive change in the world. Later, Sona and Matt Gourley bring a Conan-centric dating app exchange to life. See Sean Penn in his new film Flag Day, releasing August 20th. Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone].For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.

Hi, my name is Sean Penn, and I feel relieved to be Conan O'Brien's friend. Yes, you think you've had life-altering experiences up until now, but no, you will never be the same after this conversation. Which is why it's a relief. Hello, I'm Conan O'Brien. Welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. I put the pause in there just for dramatic effect. I didn't forget the name of the podcast. That was me doing a little something, a little piece of business to create some tension right at the top. It's cool to do it and then talk about it.

Yeah, it kind of deflates it. I understood that Sona was being sarcastic, Corley. I didn't need you to interpret it. I did not understand she was being sarcastic. She was giving you a legitimate note. She thought it was really good. No, Sona all the time has a very simple comedic style, which is, wow, Conan, you looked so cool when you bought that gumball out of a machine and it fell on the floor. I know that that means it didn't look cool when I tried to get the gumball out of the machine and it fell on the floor and I chased it like Jerry Lewis. That's my comedic style.

Yeah, your comedic style is sarcastic. It's very simple. You just say the opposite of what happened. Gee, Conan, I'm so satisfied with my salary. I know what that means. I know you think it's code, but I know that it means you're unsatisfied with your salary. Yeah, and then I always followed up with give me more money. I was an innovator because I hired Sona 11 years ago, Sona, and I started 12. Well, I mean, 11 years of work. There was a whole year there where you just goofed around. I mean, aggregate, if you added up all the hours of you watching reality shows at work.

That's actually very generous. You know what? As I said it, I was like, oh my God, that's the kindest thing I've ever said to you. It really is. But remember, Sona, when I said it doesn't even really exist yet, but I'm going to pay you in Bitcoin, remember? And you didn't understand, but we agreed to it. And I've been paying you in Bitcoin for 12 years. Yeah, and I don't know what to do with it because can you please explain to me how

Bitcoin works? I'd love to hear it. Well, trust me, you don't receive it and you can't see it in your bank account, but you've been very well compensated for your work with me in Bitcoin. So how did you do it though? I really want to know about your process and paying me with Bitcoin. I'm a tech savant. Exactly. Yeah.

How am I going to explain this to you, Sona? It's impossible. What happens is I go to Bitcoin and I drag the amount over into the box that says Sona and then I drop it there and that's how it goes in. You do a drag and drop. I do a drag and drop, yeah, for Bitcoin and that's how I pay you in Bitcoin. I'm going to go on the red, as you can tell, and if you're a regular listener, you know this for fact, I think that if you had a, I'm going to say an old preacher get into a time machine in 1811 and come out into the world now, that old preacher would understand technology

better than I do, don't you think? I honestly don't know. I write in little notebooks. I'm afraid of my computer. I don't really understand what's happening, but I am surrounded by people who really understand it very well, Will Bekdon is sitting just feet from me. Will hats off to you. You do a great job. He came to my house to turn on the computer for me because, and we don't know why, but when I do it, blue foam comes out. We don't even know what that foam is, but Will Bekdon comes all the way. He lives very far from where I live in a rural dairy farm country, I believe, just based on his hat and his overall appearance, deep, deep in dairy country, and

he drives here in what appears to be a covered wagon and he comes into my house and he takes care of everything so I don't touch any buttons because, isn't this true, Matt? We've had, we've recorded episodes where it turned out that it stopped recording seconds in because I maybe actually accidentally touched a button. Yeah, or there's something about the frequency of your voice that just fried the circuitry of the computers and stuff like that. I don't mean that you have like a bad frequency, it's just, there's something about you that- You know I'm sensitive about my voice. I'm very sensitive. I don't like- I've heard you talk about it before, but I didn't mean it that way.

Oh, how did you mean it? You said my voice can destroy- Well, I didn't mean- Actually destroy circuitry. The voice was bad. Okay, what is it about? I was just going with your, your bit. Dad. I don't think so. I'd like to go now.

I don't think so. He said, dad. I'm going to sit at this table in the kitchen wearing a v-neck white t-shirt and drink more gin and harangue as your angry father figure. Oh my God. I was just hoping to go out with the fellas tonight. You're not going anywhere. You'll stay here and tell me what's wrong about my voice. Anywho, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for all the help I get.

I'm surrounded by very brilliant dairy farmers who also understand technology. Well, since Will's been coming to your house too, you've been in a much happier mood. Right, because you can hear me. We might even have tape of it, but you can hear me just going like, what? Wait a minute. No, it says it's didn't record. Yeah. And I've just signed off. Remember that podcast we did with JD Salinger, the only time he'd ever been interviewed?

Yeah. And I did a whole podcast with him and I asked him all the stuff everyone's ever wanted to ask him like, who is Holden Caulfield? What's the inspiration? And he revealed everything and it was like a four hour podcast and it was just, and then at the end, I realized I hadn't pressed record on my end and he died the next day. Just total coincidence and we didn't have it and we've never aired that because of technology. And that's when I said, I need someone who's very good at tech, but also has the appearance of a dairy farmer and the overall manner of a humble backwardsman to come and set up my

computer and press all the buttons so that if there is a mistake, it's not on me. And it's made, it's, I'm in a much better mood. Yeah. It's true. It has been, you know, coming to work has been easier. But you know what? JD Salinger was recording on his end. So we got him to send us hours before he died.

We got him to FedEx us, his side of the tape, which would have been invaluable. And Sona got it and thought it was a screener for a Jumanji movie and she shred it. And so that's how that got lost. That's my fault. Yeah. That was your fault. You shred it and it said, from JD Salinger. And then in parentheses, he wrote last interview ever, I don't know how he knew he was going

to pass. And he FedExed it. And then he went to the FedEx place. Many people think, yeah, that he was, it was coming back from the FedEx place, mailing that to you that he expired, you know, famously he collapsed in front of a FedEx unit. You couldn't think of the word. What's it called? Okay.

Is it a shop? Is it a shop? Facility? An office? I didn't want to say facility. An office doesn't sound right. Branch. That's what I should have said.

Listen to that. You can hear, if you slow that down, you can hear my mind say, what's the available word? And it's just not there. So I said, unit. The most nondescript, universal word you could use for any item. Yeah. You know what? If you keep listening, because this is clearly degenerative.

If you hear this podcast in a year, I'm going to say, yesterday I was talking to my kids, my daughter, Nev, and unit. I'm not going to know my son Beckett's name, or that even he's my son, I'm just going to pause. I'm going to hear my brain try to find it, and I'm just going to say unit. And then a year after that, I'll be like, this is unit. Welcome to unit. When you get to that point, Conan, that's when I'm going to rob you blind.

She's being sarcastic. I think that you just, as far as, as long as I warn you, I feel like it's okay. But when you start saying unit a lot, that's when I'm going to be like, hey, you can sign this document. You know what the trick is? Son, the trick is to become my manager. And then that's the trick is to say, I managed Conan O'Brien now, and they'll say, yeah, we heard he lost his mind, and he just says unit all the time, and he's not available for

things. And you go like, nope, he's ready to go. I get 70%. And he's going to host the MTV movie awards, and I come out, you lead me out, and I'm slimed. Or is that Nickelodeon? That's Nickelodeon. Conan, what's happening? Oh, come on.

That's fair. What? Yes. I think me having terrible, like literally something's gone wrong with my mind, and all I can say is unit and walking out, because Sona booked me to do a Nickelodeon event, and then a bunch of slime drops. I say, they say, here he is, Conan O'Brien, and I come out, and Sonia, you lead me out, and then you give me a little cracker so that I'll stay, and I stay there.

And then I see the Leica one, and I go unit, and then green slime drops on me. That's my future. That's me in eight years. And then they give you the suitcase of money. Yeah. That's terrible. I've earned it. And then you put me to bed, but you don't get the slime off of me first.

You just put me to bed with the slime on. And even your own husband, you go home, and your husband's like, that was weird with Conan. He just came out, and he said unit, and then slime dropped on him, and then they went to black. Is he okay? I don't know. I took him home and put him to bed. Oh, well, who showered him?

No one. He went to bed with the slime, and Taks like, that stuff's toxic. I should know. Oh. Why should he know? Uh-oh. Why should he know? Why should Tak know about toxic things?

Yes. Why do you think? Chernobyl. That's a terrible thing. So he went to summer camp near Chernobyl growing up. That doesn't mean he knows about toxic things. That's not even a funny thing to make a joke about, Sona. That's terrible.

Let's move on. I can't wait to rob you blind. I can't wait to take everything you have when you're unable to fight me. I have to get on to the next unit. And what a unit it is. My guest today is a two-time Academy Award-winning actor. Wow. He beat me by two Oscars, who has starred in such movies as Milk, Mystic River, I Am Sam,

and Fast Times at Ridgemont High. He's also led humanitarian efforts over the years through his non-profit organization Core, which is the subject of a new documentary, Citizen Penn on Discovery Plus. He's always a fascinating conversation. I'm thrilled he's with us today, Sean Penn, welcome. How are you? How are you doing? I'm well.

I'm very well. Something was occurring to me today. I have talked to you, and this is a compliment, and I will say you are unique in that I never know exactly what the rhythm is going to be, and I always enjoy it because the times I've interviewed you, I don't know when the laughs are coming, when you're going to be silly, when you're going to be serious, and I don't know what's happening, and it's just I get on the Sean Penn wave and I ride, and I really enjoy it. It's fun.

Well, I think I have an explanation for that. I saw it on the news today, it's the thing that was going by at the bottom of the image where they talk about lack of sleep, and in your 50s, 60s, 70s, that you're more prone towards dementia, and I think what you've been facing is this impending neurological issue. So things shift depending upon my sleep patterns. I've heard you're an insomniac, is that true? Yeah, it's a problem I have, yeah.

Well, let's talk about that. When you say insomniac, meaning when do you get to sleep usually? Between 11 and 1, lately. Okay, and then how much do you sleep? About 2 hours and up for 2 hours and back for an hour and a half, then up, usually try to collect at least 5 hours, sometimes 7. Now is it true you go clubbing in the 2 hours you're up because that can interfere with your sleep pattern?

Yes, that's not the case. I'm just saying, unless my Dan and forensic files is clever. Because I've had a camera on you, and you're not aware of it, but you go clubbing and you party hard in the 2 hours that you're up, and that is hurting your sleep pattern. That's creating a lot of neurological activity. Yeah, they call that a sleep study, right? Yes. You have been my sleep study now for about 5 years.

They did say, it just came out yesterday, that neurological issues can show up if you're not getting enough sleep. Yeah, I'm here to prove it. I've always found you to be very cogent. I do not think you have a neurological issue. If you do want to go to sleep, are you doing anything before you go to sleep that's harming you? Meaning, are you watching television?

Are you watching a screen? Are you reading a Kindle off a screen? Are you looking at the internet? Vodka murder and cigarettes. I'm watching crime shows with a vodka, tonic, and a cigarette, so yes, I probably am not doing all that I should do to get a good night's sleep. I actually, I love a crime show. You love a crime show?

Do you love a crime documentary? Yeah, I try to sort of eat them. With the exception, I find, especially, I don't respond that well when the case is surround children. Anything else I'm fascinated with. Yeah. Sony, you relate to this because you love true crime. I love true crime, and I feel as if, maybe I'm wrong, but I used to feel badly about

watching so much true crime, and I thought, well, this is voyeuristic, I shouldn't be doing this, but I think it's made me a very good detective. I think I'm, I do, I really do think that I have become, I'm very, I've so studied crime now, I've studied crime more than most criminologists. And so, and if you've done the same, Sean, we could solve crimes together. We could open a detective agency in Malibu, and you and I could solve crimes. Or perpetuate them. Well, how about both?

How about we commit the crimes on a Thursday night, and then we solve them on a Friday night? Sounds good to me. We'd be legends. We'd be absolute legends. You know I'm going to waste your time today. You know that. You understand that.

I don't feel that at all. You know what occurred to me because you are so well known for traveling the world and really getting in there, getting waist deep in whatever's happening and helping out, that it occurred to me today, is it even possible for you to go to an upscale hotel and chill? Are you able to do that? Because God forbid someone took a picture of you with two cucumber slices on your eyes drinking a margarita. It feels like, no, Sean Penn can't do that.

He's got to be in the thick of it constantly all the time. I take the risk. I do. When I can have a moment to have cucumber slices on my eyes, I take it and so be it. If somebody snaps a quiet cell phone picture and puts it out there letting the world know how self-caring I am. Because we don't hear a lot about your moisturizing regimen. It stretches you to- But you see the results of it.

I see the results. You look fantastic. You look absolutely fantastic. I think we are of a similar vintage and I grew up in Boston. You grew up making short films here in LA and Malibu. Do you ever show those films? Do those films exist? Are they seen?

These are films that you made with like Emilio Estevez, Charlie Sheen. Would you ever show those? Yes. Honestly, one of them still exists in a back room at Emilio Estevez's house. Though he says that he's searched for it and not found it. All the others, all the other films that I made in high school were the victims of a house fire in one of the Santa Monica Mountains burned down one of the many times. So I don't have copies of any of those.

Would you be fascinated to see yourself at that age acting or would you rather not? I have a kind of muscle memory of it. I kind of have a sense of that time and it was a period where I felt that I was without any previous to doing any training or even having made any kind of conscious decision to be an actor. It was a period of sort of finding that if not anything else, I had an ability to be reasonably naturalistic and I think that that gave me a kind of interest in doing and seeing how it would be pushed further with any kind of foundational understanding of how to approach

characters and move to characters rather than only having characters move towards me. So yeah, I do remember finding a kind of easiness with things at that time that was sort of a seed of confidence to go forward. It's almost that concept that when you start to learn things, it can, I'm not going to say ruin it because it doesn't ruin it, but when you start to train and learn, they always say, it's that famous saying about kids, why are kids drawing so great? It's because they know when to stop. And I think holding on to that initial thing is really important.

And then it's a very fragile period as you begin. And I think that a lot of actors and probably artists in other areas are injured by some of, depending upon how lucky you are to stumble into a teacher or a mentor who understands that at the end of the day, the process is whatever works and you keep what's working and then add some colors to it if you can. I know that in comedy, when I was young, I just loved making people laugh. And then I started to learn, I started to quote, learn what the rules are of comedy. And it took me a long time to realize that people were making up names for things and

rules almost to justify that this was a craft that you needed to learn. And yeah, there's stuff that you need to learn, but I almost felt like, no, this is getting in the way. I'm glad you brought up comedy because it's something I hope we'll talk about just because of the times that we're living and how difficult it must. I'm so interested right now in how comedians are looking at the new world and the opportunities to express without being instantly, quote unquote, canceled and so on. It's a tricky time, isn't it?

Well, yeah, it is. I'm happy to talk about that. There've been a lot of different, obviously, reactions to what should comedy be doing right now. And I know people in comedy, people that do the job that I do that clearly feel like there's so much that's happening that doesn't feel funny that they feel like it's their job to speak out about those things. And I think, yes, that's great, but it's easy for that to just turn into anger and outrage,

and then you're not, I feel like you're losing your way as a comedian. And I think that's what gets so tricky right now is the job is, how can I reflect some of what's happening around me? But also, for me, I just know that I serve at the altar of silliness and comedy. And that is, that's what I need to get back to. That's what I need to try. And that's where my strength comes. And that means sometimes, I have to be honest with you, there are times where the news is

such that I feel like my comedy can't almost have anything to do with it. And some people might say, well, that's a cop out. You should make your comedy about what's happening right now. And I think I just don't have, frankly, I don't have that ability. There are times where there are times where it's embarrassing to be in show business. You know, there are times where I've had the experience traveling the world and not Iota as much as you have, but I've been to some pretty intense places. And I've thought, is entertaining really of any importance in the face of the problems

that these people have here and right now? And it can really rattle your confidence in what you're doing. And I think that that's probably true for actors as well. There are times where you think is being in a movie really moving the puzzle piece forward? Is this what I should be doing? And I think clearly you've somewhat wrestled with that. No question. I think in daily, and it's why, you know, with humor, of course, I think, you know,

we do find that it's so essential to in every culture and in any kind of current or long-term healing process. What you said just a moment ago is the big question is when we see a world that's, you know, in the state that ours is today, you take your whole lifetime, whoever that is, in whatever your work is, and you wonder if any of it has helped to move anything forward when so often things seem to feel as though they're going backward and into some kind of anarchy and so much hatred and so on. It is kind of interesting to consider that sometimes these things are cyclic and that

whatever the creative process is and whatever that offering is, at times is most potent reflecting those things going on in society. And other times it has to be led by what society is aspiring to at given moments and finding that balance when you've been, you know, in my case, I've typically been more interested in, you know, dramas that shine light on very challenging things in our culture and yet today to do that is often you have to question whether or not in doing that at this moment you're just perpetuating it. I had an experience you're aware of, but I do travel shows and I did a travel show a

number of years ago to Haiti, which I know is a very important place to you. And there's so much poverty in Haiti and still recovering from just a devastating earthquake in 2010. What I found when I went there was my salvation almost was keying into the people. There was a small school for kids that's privately funded. I went to that school and it was little kids and I was silly with them. I just forgot myself and I was silly with them and they were laughing and I was disrupting the class and making myself the idiot.

And that kind of saved me. It sounds like I'm being dramatic, but with these kids, we just made some silly stuff and that was a joy. Yeah. Here we talk about getting outside our comfort zones in countries like Haiti. Most of the people have never had any expectation or experience of comfort in any lasting way. In the first place, not in the way that we would look at it. So it circles back to the beginning of our conversation in terms of this idea of living

in the moment. Those kids you're talking about, when that moment arrives, they completely embrace it and those faces, those smiles are not the smiles that are burdened by the challenges their life has been. They're just full with what's happening at that moment and it really is inspiring. Well, we've learned to keep the cameras rolling because you never know what's going to happen and after we were done shooting at this school, we're getting in the truck to go back to a different part, go back to Port-au-Prince to tape a different segment, but the crew

is still breaking down the equipment and the window of my truck is open and I'm on the passenger side and my arm is hanging out and all these beautiful kids gather around and they're looking at my exposed arm in wonder because I am a light-skinned Irish guy who's covered in freckles. And I don't know if you remember this, Sonia, but they're all just like looking at my arm like, oh, what is this that happened to you? And you know, I love any situation, I really do love any situation where the whole thing is inverted, I'm not the alpha, I am not in the power position.

They have pity for me because, you know, they're questioning my hair, they're questioning this poor guy, I'm the odd man out and I've really had an appreciation for any time we can flip the script, not just as Americans, but as people and put yourself in a situation where these kids literally wanted to get me to a doctor. You know, I was there to try and help them and put light on their situation. They were like, does this get better? No, no, do you take medication for this? No!

This is called having Irish skin. I realize it's not attractive. I think the bigger part of this, because I do remember and did see your show broadcast from Haiti, I just remember feeling a lot of gratitude for, you know, what you have such a gift for human beings is just giving yourself to that and, you know, to being able to see those kids light up, it's a special thing myself, I don't have that in particular. I mean, I do my best in terms of the things that I do and facilitate, but even when it came to, long before I went to Haiti, you know, whenever at some point, once you become

a known actor, somebody asks you to visit a pediatric ward somewhere. There's no saying no to it, so you go, but I don't, I'm terrible at small talk, whether a child is ill or healthy, I'm just not, I have inhibitions that are equal with children as adults and I don't have that, so when I saw you bring, you know, that kind of freedom of spirit there, it was really, it was very moving and fun. Did you feel like, because I know you've described yourself as, and you probably still are, you have a natural shyness, probably discomfort in social situations, and you did especially as a younger person, that you always heard, and I think it's true of comedy too, you reserve

a place for yourself where you can do anything, and it's not really you. That's why the acting is so good is that it's a place you can go that is completely fresh and you're free and you're not responsible because it's not you. It's a little bit like singing in the car to the radio, you know, once you find that music and you put your finger on it, it definitely is a freeing thing, but there have been times where, you know, I didn't find that entirely, and then I felt either the static or somebody turned the radio off and I got to keep singing, and those are the times that are, those are the less fulfilling acting experiences.

And is the song you're singing, It's Raining Men, when you're in the car? It actually was, well, my buddy who works on film sets as a driver and he works with me whenever we're, schedules line up, my buddy Chet, he and I were, and he's a kind of five foot seven fire plug of a guy from New York, he's like a Jack O'Lane kind of guy, short but broad, muscly, grizzled guy, and I had one of his jobs was to have that queued up in the volume high, and as we came over, for those who know San Francisco, if you're coming from Lombard over to Visadero, as you summit to Visadero, you're looking straight into the Castro, which was the principal set of milk in the history of that story, and virtually

as we would, we'd stop at six in the morning, get spicy chicken wings from a place called American Wings, and be eating those wings, and then as we summited to Visadero, boom, it's rain and man, I'll be clear, every day of that shoot. That is proof there's a God, you know, everything lines up, everything lines up in the universe. I'm tough on biographical films, because I always think a good documentary can usually tell the story better, and I thought an exception was milk, I really did think that I've seen documentaries about Harvey Milk in that era, and that tragedy, but I actually thought the movie gave me a better insight than any documentary could, I don't know why that's true, you know,

your performance obviously was fantastic, but I don't want to give you credit, because I'm talking to you right now, it must be someone else, you know. It was a lot, I think a lot of that movie, and I feel very lucky to have been part of it with Gus Van Sant, and Toss and Lance Black's script, and so on, but it brings up an interesting point, another one that I think about a lot these days. You know, but today, almost certainly I would not be permitted to be cast in that role. That's right. We're living in a time where if you're playing a lead character, you would have to be a gay

man, or a trans character, and there have been these casting issues, and it does go back to, again, some of what we were talking about earlier in terms of finding the balance of when you have a period of evolution that certainly has an opportunity for people who have had less opportunities to move forward. That has to be supported, and yet in this pendulum swing society that we're in, you wonder at some point if only Danish princes can play Hamlet. It is, I believe, too restrictive. People are looking for gotcha moments and to criticize, and it is mostly those on the

sidelines, those who are not otherwise getting work be they white, black, male, female. When I have conversations with colleagues of all stripes on a private basis, it is almost universally agreed on, and it's only when people stand up at podiums that this becomes this very militant view about it, and the only position anyone can take is to sit back and keep listening and keep watching and seeing where balance can be achieved. What you're talking about is I think what I find, I've always liked nuance. I've always thought that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That's probably the way just I'm geared.

I like to really think about things before I decide. I have found there's a pressure, and I'm sure you felt the same thing, but there are moments where there's a demand for people in the public eye to behave a certain way or wear a certain t-shirt with a certain slogan. I always find it confusing because if I do something performative that everyone else is doing, it looks almost like I'm trying to get praise for having just a moral belief, which really makes me uncomfortable. Yeah, it's what they call virtue signaling.

Yeah, it's virtue signaling. Or perceived as such. Yeah, or perceived as such, and I think it can get to be, the nuance can get bled out of things, and you can feel that I get uncomfortable when I think that everyone is getting an email that says, this is the thing everyone should say today, especially if you're in the public eye or you need to post this. And so often, we've seen it fail spectacularly where someone during the height of the Black Lives Movement several months ago, right after George Floyd's killing, someone had

the idea, let's just black out our, everyone should black out their social media page. And I'm sure there was a good feeling behind it, but a lot of people in the Black community said, no, this is actually not helping, this isn't doing anything. And this is actually keeping other sites that are trying to talk about this. It's taking attention away from them, and it's not what we want. And I don't know, it's such a confusing time, and you're right, that it's a really good question. I really love the movie Milk, and I loved your performance in it, and that is a performance

that would not happen today. What does that mean? I don't disagree with that, but I also think the whole, it's really fascinating when it comes to acting, because acting is all about inhabiting, I mean, Daniel Day Lewis couldn't make my left foot, you know, and that's a fantastic ground-changing performance. So many, and so much of acting, as you know a lot better than I do, is about suspension of disbelief and transforming yourself. And so, yeah, we may find that this pendulum swing has to be reexamined in some of these

areas. Yes, because also, it takes away an opportunity for actors to be able to do what Daniel did so brilliantly in that movie, or any opportunities that I have had, you know, there is something in embodying a certain kind of empathy for whether it's in his handicap person, or if somebody is gay and therefore marginalized or oppressed. To step into that is, I think, something that really draws a lot of creative energy. And what's happened now is that in place of creative energy, we're all sort of burdened with the energy and concern of optics, and it becomes kind of a broken record that really

doesn't jive with us cellularly as people. And so, yet, maybe all it is is, again, this cyclic thing where, you know, maybe this is time for actors, comedians, where we have to say, hey, this moment isn't our turn for that entire creative freedom, and believe enough that it'll come back, that the playing field will level in a productive way, and that there'll be more freedom, as long as it is coming out of an understanding, an empathy, a solidarity, that we'll have more of that freedom come back, but that we'll be sharing that stage with more people doing the same who haven't had the opportunity before.

That's it. That's the hope. Well, I'm still, I've always described myself as like a, I think I'm a 52% optimist, and I do believe that everything that's happened in the last year is going to inform us in the best way, and is going to have a very valuable impact on the arts, and is going to make things better and more inclusive. So I believe in all that, I just think there are individual moments, like when you talk, use the word empathy a lot, and I think, I really, empathy is a very important word,

and also forgiveness, this, the whole concept of cancel culture is, we found that someone did something in 1979 that is now not appropriate, they're dead to us. And I think, yeah, what happened to, let's talk about that now. But people can also be forgiven if they even need forgiving. But what happened to that? What happened? You know, why are we, it almost feels very Soviet kind of sometimes that. Yeah.

This young woman who was meant to be the editor of a Vogue or Teen Vogue magazine, and she searched some texts when she was 17 years old, it really is, I remember the fellow who does a lot of the better interviews for Axios was on, saying, you know, when we, when we're destroying careers like that, what are we really achieving? What are we doing? Yeah. Or you look at it, you know, politicians, I give a lot, a big nod to anybody that's willing to enter the public arena who is doing so because they give a damn.

Yeah. It's an extraordinary time, and it's up to me to fix it. That's the point here. That's like the old Stephen Wright joke about the smoky the bear saying, only you can prevent forest fires. I think smoky should have helped. I really do. I think he should have gotten in there.

You've been working really hard, you know, obviously, and I wanted to shine a light on this because I know that core is very important to you, and I think people usually imagine you traipsing around the world, trying to help out in various far-flung corners, but core has been really doing an amazing job trying to, first of all, get people tested for COVID, but also now to get people vaccinated and make sure that it's equitable. When they started coming out with vaccines, I thought, I hope this doesn't turn into people in the 1% line up and get them first, and I think there actually was a very noble effort to make sure that that was not the case.

I'm sure there are always people that can gain the system, but I think, I mean, you should speak to that, which is it's been very important to you that disenfranchised people have access to the vaccine and that it's not just something that is available to people who are in the know. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's so many layers to the issues that have, well, opened all our eyes to the vulnerabilities of the public health system, and inequity is a big part of that. The other part of that, you know, on the other side of it, of course, we understand that

it's in the very communities that have been left out, that there is a higher degree of vaccine hesitancy and it's not. It's not hard to imagine why if only using the example of Tuskegee because it's not, that's not some, you know, brown-paged piece of our history book that's 1972. So that's mothers and fathers, or at least grandfathers, grandmothers, telling stories, you know, through their communities that would give one pause. In this situation, what's really important for CORE, aside from the implementation of sites and mobile sites, as well as fixed sites across the country for vaccinations, is also

the information campaigns because we've got, you know, we're part of a kind of, you know, chosen era of humanity relative to where science is on this, and we have these extremely safe vaccines, and vaccines that, from my understanding, because of the nature of their targeting proteins and cells, may actually move forward into that which is going to, you know, absolve us of cancer in the not-too-distant future. So, and I include Johnson and Johnson in terms of those extraordinary vaccines. And they, that the fact that this happened at this time, you know, a lot is given to the warp speed aspect of it, but in fact, this started about, I think this started with

HIV AIDS in terms of the research communities on these mRNA vaccines, and that we are in a time where everybody is going to have had access to this with everybody in the United States will have had access to this within a year or a year and a half of the onset of this pandemic is really amazing. There's another issue which is misinformation out there, and some of it can have cultural ties, some of it can have, you know, there's, I know people, I've talked to people who've told me, yeah, I'm not getting that, I don't really trust it. Some of these people that I've spoken to have gone to college and, but they have biases

that come from, I don't know, I don't, they can come from really anywhere. So, and I know you have friends who you've talked to who are very well educated who've said, yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to do that. Yes, it's very frustrating. It is. And there is a lot of misinformation. A lot of the things they say is just not true. I have a friend who, a good friend who runs a really a great food distribution center

in Lawrence, Massachusetts, Core Unum, and I've mentioned it before, but he said it's a real struggle because I think predominantly first generation Hispanic community, Latinx community, and he said it's, that there's a lot of biases that exist and rumors that exist about how the vaccine was made. It's overcoming that. It's figuring out, you know, he is a, he's a priest, he's a Catholic priest. So he's revered and he's talked to them and that's not enough. That is not good enough to get people to overcome that bias, you know, against this strange

thing we want to put in your arm. It's an education element and so much of this, you know, when we started branched from what had started out as JPHRO and Haiti and then moved into the Hurricane Belt United States, we started in Savannah, Georgia, and what we were doing was search, search training locals for hurricane response, local kids from 15 to the early 20s. The, you know, the very first thing they taught us was that grandma and grandpa, especially in these marginalized communities, were not inclined to trust whether it was the weather service or local authorities of any kind on evacuation orders and, but who they would

trust is there, is their little grandchild come to the door and saying, you know, you got to prepare a go bag and all of that. I do think that the communities are capable of healing themselves of this vaccine hesitancy because if, if, if Joe doesn't get it, maybe Mary does next door and a couple of weeks later Mary's still standing and smiling and says, Joe, you really ought to get that vaccine and then Joe gets it and it's going to, it's going to be like that. And with the help of community leaders, but I, I'm optimistic about where, where that's going to go.

The bigger issue also is the part of this, you know, there's misinformation and there can also be in a way too much information, which was a missile guided initially by the prior administration where there were no guidelines. There was no clarity. There were only panic being inspired or, or a so-called hoax being considered. So it's a question of what penetrates people's understanding. It's not that the information isn't there. The information is there.

It's a question of, you know, getting through all the debris around the information, all of this madness that has been in the last year and a year and a half on this thing. And I think as the dust settles and if, you know, my feeling again is that this White House has done an extraordinary job in terms of refining and communicating those guidelines and the task force has done an incredible job. I used to come home from working the sites here in Los Angeles or, or, or across the country, turn on the news at night and it was maddening because on the ground as implementers, we knew what the simple basics were.

The job was not rocket science. It was pretty simple. But even if, but to understand it was to understand which parts of it to focus on. And there was, there was so many things for that whole political part of it. And the, the idea that, you know, the masking politicized and all that, it's really lunacy. And I just like to think that again with, with the temperament of the current leadership, if we can all partner with that, whatever our political beliefs are and just find our way through as a country, all of that will settle and we'll get to a good result.

I think what's most maddening to me about anti-maskers, and this is not me getting on a, on a high horse or anything or, or getting on a soapbox. But what I've, I've always noticed is that the climate deniers, the vaccination deniers, the mask deniers, they're basically saying, I don't trust this thing that I can't see. And yet they're more than happy to enjoy the fruits of science and engineering with their pickup truck, with their flat screen television. I mean, there's so much that I don't understand and that I can't see that I benefit from directly in my life every single day that has not been politicized and everyone's enjoying the benefits

of those things. So why did we just draw a tiny little circle around, let's cover our nose and mouth and that will help increase our, decrease our likelihood of getting COVID by 95% period. Why is that suddenly suspicious? But HD television is not suspicious. I think it takes courage to have any genuine level of faith in, in human kinds ability to, to do something positive together and that, that these, this other group you're talking about are, are the original scaredy cats.

They can run around and, you know, flex their muscles and yell bad words and carry guns and all of that stuff, but, but, but they're at the, at the core, it's a scaredy cat culture. And it's a question of how, how to, how to help give people enough courage to put on a fucking mask and do, do, you know, do your service to this country in the world. Well, we're really at the end of our time. I've thoroughly enjoyed this. I did want to pitch you one concept, which is if I can get the funding and I can get the script together, I would like you to play me in a feature length film, Sean.

And I think I know that you're doing less acting than you used to because you're devoting so much time to helping the world. But I think this is an opportunity for you. I think it's an opportunity for me. It's an opportunity for you to stretch as an actor. Stretch. It's really stretch. Yes.

You were going to be six four in this film. This reminds me of, you know, this terrific actor, Joe Ledgerchin, when he first came from Australia to the States, we sat down for a coffee and he said to me, I said, what do you want to do? He says, I just want to get out of here without having my underpants on the outside of my tights. So the answer is no. I'm getting it as a hard pass.

I don't know if I can play a superhero, sir. I'm saying. Nice. Very nice. Nice. Always wrap the no in a candy coated compliment and you're off the hook. Hey, Sean, I have to say, I love, I'll say this, it's very interesting because people can have a certain persona where someone might be intimidated to speak to them.

And I'm going to put you in that category with, you know, like a Jack Nicholson where I don't think I'd go right up to them. I wouldn't go right up to, I wouldn't cross a room being me. You can, but I would not cross a room and go, Jack, baby, it's Conan. I've met him, he's a delightful person, but he has that persona. And you have, I suspect people would be somewhat wary of just openly walking up to you because I think you've cultivated over the years a bit of, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how Sean Penn's going to.

Grumpiness, I think, says it. Thank you. Thank you. I had that written on my hand. Grumpiness. I don't worry about De Niro once. I don't want to out the person, but a friend of mine, someone I know was working with Robert De Niro and he was going to be around for a couple of days and Robert De Niro was sitting

at a table and there was a bunch of people working on the project and this person sat opposite Robert De Niro who was reading a newspaper and said, hey, I just wanted to mention, I know we're going to be hanging around with a couple of days, working with each other. I understand that you have this townhouse and I also live in that same area and Robert De Niro just lowered the newspaper and said, no small talk, and then put the newspaper back up and shut the guy down and I thought, I can't do that. That is not my persona, my persona is put the newspaper down and then juggle for the person for 40 minutes straight while doing a dance.

You have that persona, I think it's probably benefited you a lot, but I wanted to say that I think I've talked to you at some length now three or four times and your behavior always flies in the face of that persona. You have a lot to say and you're really fun to talk to and you've got an innate silliness. I was trying to get the word out with people that, you know, Sean Penn, you've got to understand. There's a guy there who's not probably who you think he is. Well, I appreciate it and I'm a big fan of you and I appreciate our conversations also. You're a generous, spirited guy.

I do want to get in one thing, I'm just thinking, just a shout out to all the staff and volunteers of Core who are really doing God's work and I just inspired as hell by him and I appreciate the profile that you've helped to give to the organization. Yes, and I've met a lot of, not a lot, but I've met a number of people that work on Core and they're, they have gorgeous spirits, they're really, and they're doing great work and they're doing God's work and pick whichever God you want, but they're doing that work. So my best to you, I'm going to come at you with a script and the Conan Bryant story. I have my cape ready.

Yeah, this is, this will be, the shoot will only take three weeks. The budget, it will be up north of $70,000 and that's about it. I'm in. A few episodes ago, we had a listener that mentioned that they mentioned Conan in their dating app bio and that, that didn't go so well for them on a specific match. Do you guys remember that? Yes. I think I blocked that stuff out of my brain because it's potentially hurtful, but I thought

it was nice. It was nice. Well, it's nice that the person mentioned me in, in what they thought was a positive way, but then that the fact that it didn't go well, maybe that failed to attract someone by invoking me, you could see how that could be perceived. I see the person that didn't understand Conan was an asset as a non-starter, a deal breaker. Like they're not up to stuff for that person that has you on their bio. I wasn't aware that such a person could exist.

Well, there's another one because we're about to get into it. Oh, great. Now, this is from Liam Sullivan and screenshot of the actual exchange he had on a dating app. And so I thought what we'd do is I'll read Liam's part and Sona, you can read the person that he is talking to. Does that make sense? Okay.

This is terrifying. So you're the white bubbles and I'll be the green ones. So I'll start. Okay. Yeah. Uh-huh. I like your style. Thank you.

What are you doing now? Watching Jimmy Fallon. Huh? On DVR? Yes. I don't stay up late enough to watch. Cool. I get it.

I'm a Conan guy myself. He's not even on anymore. It's been years, LOL. Yes, he is, LOL. Oh, shit. What channel? His last show of a 27 career is in two weeks, lady. You missed the boat.

He does have a podcast. It's called Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. Conan and Matt Gorlier Delightful. Katakai is god-mater. Good night, madam. It will never work. A cockaroo. I've always said I'm not sure I would watch me if I wasn't me.

Does that make sense? What? What? No, you would. No, because I'm not naturally drawn to watching comedy. I would probably watch documentaries. I've watched the stuff that I already watched and I'd be like, Conan, he's still on? I thought he died.

That's probably what I would be if I wasn't me. I only know that I didn't die because I'm me. Does that make sense? Yeah. Kind of. But I think you would watch yourself if you weren't you because you would have the same sensibilities and you would appreciate it. I would appreciate it, but I think I would only watch me if I wasn't me because I thought

I was attractive. I would say, God, that guy's guy keeps really good bone structure, look at his cheekbones and he's really tall and look at that hair, I mean, that hair even being real. He's got that great sort of Dick Van Dyke silhouette and he's got a strong jaw. I would just be if I wasn't me and was someone else and obviously looked like someone else, I would see me and go, shit, that guy is fucking hot. That's like a hot guy. That's the only reason I would tune into the show.

Do you ever catch yourself in the mirror by surprise? Yeah. No, I don't catch myself. I race to the mirror. When I get up in the morning, I run to the mirror to see me. I'm so happy to see me because I very much like the way that I look. That's a nice message. Yeah.

And I, so I have mirrors placed all over the place. I've had whole conversations with my children where I'm just looking at myself in one of three mirrors and they're telling me something that happened to them at school that like hurt their feelings or like a tough thing they're going through and I give good advice, but the whole time I'm looking at myself going, God, that just hair is incredible. It is incredible hair, I will say. I shouldn't have gotten into podcasting because the, you're crushing down this mighty pompadour with these big, ugly headsets that you have to wear and you're robbing me of my trademark

and possibly my only really solid asset. So we got to figure that out. We got to get on that. Yeah. Let's make that a priority. Let's really make sure that we, well, I don't have time to do it. I'm busy DVRing Fallon. Here, that's my question.

Here's my thing. What? Yeah. Younger people, I didn't know they still had TV and DVR things. Am I wrong? I thought everybody was a cord cutter now. I thought we all just like would watch, if you're going to watch Fallon, won't you watch them on like Hulu the next day?

Well, we don't know that that's the young person, do we? Well, she said, no, you know what? No, the LOL makes me feel like. No, I think, I just found out we looked into it. She's 68 years old. No, she was a nurse for the Marines in the Korean War. I mean, her punctuation tells me that she's, she doesn't capitalize Jimmy Fallon. She puts a space between the O and the B in your name.

I mean, this is all like young, young stuff. No, these are these punctuation rules you're following were really came along in the 80s in the 70s and 80s. So I think it's a very, very old woman who isn't really, you know, that hip. The oldies never really got you. The oldies? We're going to call them that. I don't know.

Like, like the older demographic, you always had a younger demographic audience because, you know, you had a lot of things that people didn't get when they were older. Like you're very like animated and you're very like goofy. And so they're just kind of like, I don't know about this Conan guy. When I walk into a restaurant for a lot of my career, old people would see me and get up and leave. Oh. They would definitely leave the restaurant.

Sometimes they would climb out a window rather than be in the same room with me. Oh, God. Yeah. There was something about, I was too, this is back in the 90s, but I was very energetic and strange and the comedy was weird and I had many old people tell me, I wish you had never been born. Oh my God. That was a common thing.

Yeah. My grandparents said that. Oh, my grandfather said that every time I walked into a room. Rough life. Is it bad that I said the oldies? Now I'm worried that I. Oh, no. I'm not listening to this podcast.

Okay. All right. But no, I shouldn't say that because there are lots of elderly people who do understand, you know, what it ever it is I do. I don't understand what it ever it is I do. So I never take it personally when someone isn't on my wavelength, you know. Many geniuses have been, okay, let's not go down that road. Oh, God.

I think people should not reference me in their dating apps. I think it's a mistake. You know, what if this could have been the perfect love match, but then because this guy doubled down on Conan O'Brien, he blew it. But I think he's putting his cards out on the table. This is what matters to him and he needs someone that will appreciate that. I'm telling my fans, if you want to carry on the species, if you want to procreate, stop mentioning my name.

Don't mention Conan O'Brien when you're talking to a lady, you know, or if you're a lady to a guy when chemistry and biology and sexual matters are involved. My name should not be invoked. It runs counter to the pursuit. I don't know. I disagree. Okay. Mention it a lot.

I invoke your name in sexual encounters all the time. It only helps. Yeah. I think, you know, I would say if you really want to test someone and mention my name during sexual encounters. That's what I mean. Yeah. If you're shouting Conan at a critical moment, that will tell you everything you need to

know. It's horrifying. You know, it's horrifying when you think of any host, actually, because if you're yelling Fallon at the same time, that's not good either. No. There's no host whose name should be yelled at the critical moment. No. Diane Sawyer.

No. Open. Morley Safer. I actually think that works kind of in a weird way. Yeah. Morley Safer. Regis. Regis kind of works.

Yeah. Regis does work. No longer with us, but one of the great hosts of all time. And I think during climax, if you yelled Regis, it just, I don't know, it sort of works. It does sort of work. Well, it sounds like we all got some homework. Yeah. Wait, what?

We got to find out if that works. Oh, I see what you mean. Oh, I see what you mean. Get to doing it and then with our respective partners and yell out Regis. Yeah. All the listeners, next time you get to it, yell Regis and report back. Yeah. Yeah.

Do that. Do that because a podcast told you to do that very thing. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian and Matt Gorely. Produced by me, Matt Gorely, executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solotarov and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson at Ear Wolf, theme song by the White Stripes, incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer

Samples, engineering by Will Bekdon, talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista and Brick Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend on Apple Podcasts,

Stitcher or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Ear Wolf.