Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Sharon Horgan

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

Actor, writer, and director Sharon Horgan feels exhausted about being Conan O’Brien’s friend. Sharon sits down with Conan to discuss winning a BAFTA for Bad Sisters, grade school confessional galas, starting from scratch, and her process for writing believable characters. Later, Conan cautions his team against the perils of having specialty dishes named after them. For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.

Hi, my name is Sharon Horgan, and I feel exhausted about being Conan O'Brien. I feel Christ's sake. Brand new shoes, walking leaves, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are gonna new friends, I can tell that we are gonna new friends. Hey there, welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend. Join, I'm gonna switch it up now. By Matt Gourley. Oh I go first. You go first.

Oh I'm nervous. Yeah, don't worry, that's all there is and Sonoma Saskin. Hi, and I'm back You're gonna try again. No, I've been mentioning a couple times on the podcast recently that I did a bunch of recordings when I was in New York City And that includes the guest today was recorded in New York City and what happens when you record in New York City is when we're here in LA We get together at this cool clubhouse that we have here on the large mont area of kind of central Hollywood.

This is our layer. This is like, you know that place that Joker hangs out in that's got lots of, you know, jokery things in the background or if the riddler hangs out there, there's lots of question marks. You don't wanna go with like the specter volcano from James Bond, that blow fell. No, I'm gonna stick with this. All right. I know you're using a lot of lur hangs out there. There's lots of question marks. You don't want to go with like the Spectre volcano from James Bond, that blow fell.

No, I'm gonna stick with this. I know, you're using a lot of villains. Well, I do think of myself as a villain, a comedic villain, or penguins in like an ice cave with lots of penguins. This is a Conan layer. We're in right now. It's very comfortable and cozy. When I'm in New York, I go to the Sirius XM offices,

which are in Midtown, to do the recordings. And when you walk in, you can pack me up on this, Adam Sax is here, who's the evil genius behind everything we do. He's the one pulling the puppet strings. Adam, you're aware that you walk in and there's this big kind of atrium, and there's a giant screen, and a big wrap around couch, and it's a very large kind of festive area, and it's packed, it's packed with people who are coming to do recordings for serious.

It's like a combination lobby, so people who are just there for meetings or for work, and also for people who are for talent who's coming into go guest on podcast. Three times. Three times I walk into the building and there's just a whole bunch of, you know, I don't know, I don't know who they are, but just packed with entourage and I'm being introduced to people and it's like this is little buggy. Oh, and You met little boogie. I met a little boogie You know or I'll walk in and it's always like nine bodyguards Everyone's all decked out in various kinds of costumes and then

lots of wrappers, think, lots of rappers. And everyone seems happy to see me, which is nice. And they'll come up and they'll say mad respect. And so I would just say right back at ya. And then they'll say, you know, Admiral Chaz. And he used to... You, Admiral Chaz. And you've been Admiral Chaz? Admiral Farky? No, formerly Little Buggy. Formerly Little Buggy.

Yeah, he's now Admiral Chaz. Oh my God. Okay. Well, but anyway, I just feel kind of overwhelmed because I think I have to get my, I need to catch up. I want to be able to walk into a room and know instantly who everybody is.

But don't you see that you could have had an entourage if you brought us with you and yet again. I can't know if this was these were entourage. We can have entourage. No, no, no, these are, you know, like, who put on sunglasses? No, inside. Well, you really get in there though with these entourage. Oh, I walked out of the bathroom at one point you were surrounded by one of the entourage is that you were making did you know who it was i didn't know who it was and i'm getting lots of hugs and i'm being told mad respect so i started saying mad respect oh and at one point i think i was

talking to someone who was just there to fix the air conditioning and i was telling them mad respect but um i just need to i need to know what's happening i mean i got a big boost because my daughter took me to um and I was telling the mad respect. But I just need to know what's happening. I mean, I got a big boost because my daughter took me to Coachella last summer and it gave me a good, you know, like I saw a lot of bands, but it's, you've got a really, I mean, at my age, you've got to really work at it.

You have to take out some 70s, like, cop show info to make room for that stuff. Or, okay. That's valuable. Knowledge of which presidents in the 60s and 50s made which Supreme Court appointment. No, that has to come out. That maybe comes out and then new people come in.

No, no. No, you have to make room because. You have to make room. You know, it would just be fantastic. Entrepreneurs are fleeting, though. I mean, it would just be fantastic. And the judges are fleeting though. I need, you know what I need from now on, Adam? I need prep when I'm going to work it serious. I need someone to prep me because I'm walking in

and it's just not gonna- It's murder, it's murder, it's murder, it's murder. Come on. No, seriously, would you know who everyone was? Probably not everyone, but I guess I'd probably know more than the table. I just also probably know all of them. I probably know.

And I'll, you know, it's just one of those things where I know. Of course, yeah, I know I knew I know. No, no, no, no, no, they weren't holding banjos. Oh, they weren't. No, okay, then no one had a lot of. No one had a loot. Uh, loot scoop boogie was it? I think I'm prepping hopping and he can. Oh, no, it's going can be filtered through David Hopping.

Well, he can whisper in the rear of this tiny town in southern Illinois. He's not going to know. No, Eduardo will prep. No, no, no, I just need Eduardo by my side. Yeah, I would just bring him all the time. I agree. Like Tony Hale and Veepe just whispering. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

That's what I was picturing. Yeah, right. I will say this. I will say this. I will say this. This is just completely random, but just file this under, you never know where you're gonna meet talented people. I was, I was gonna take a walk up through Central Park

and meet a friend of mine, and I'm walking up the west side, and I realized, oh, I don't know any sunblock on it. It's really sunny out today. And you know that doesn't go well for me, son. You've been with me when I, you start to smell bacon cooking. So when I'm in the sun for more than five minutes. Yeah, so one of those those places blue mercury

Yes, I see one of those and I go in this young woman Says can I help you when I go? I'm just looking for some sunscreen And she really quickly found me this great sunscreen and she talked me out of getting tinted She went nah you don't want tinted you just get this She was great and so I started chatting with her and she didn't know, she didn't know who, she's very young, she didn't know who I am. Other people in this, she noticed that other people in the store knew who I am. So she said, oh, do you, and I said, yeah, I know I work in television stuff.

She said, well, I work on, I'm a recording artist, but I'm really working on it. And then I said, well, let me see what you've got. And she starts showing me her videos. And she's great. And she's doing all these synchronized dances on these very professional. And her name is TK. And she was great. And I thought, you know, I just want to give a shout out to TK who put, I mean, she sold me, I just was so inspired by her because she showed me a bunch of videos and then I mentioned her to my daughter who started looking up more for videos and she said, she's really good. And maybe you discovered her. She gets all these, her friends to help

around who are dancers and she has these very professional looking, you know, dance synchronized dance moves and you should introduce her to a little boogie. Yeah, an admiral chaz. Yeah, yeah. Did you make her sign a contract that if she becomes big, then you get a piece of whatever? I made her sign a contract that if she gets big, she has to buy me one tube of sunscreen. One tube, Conan, you could ask for more than sunscreen. Trust me, you know, life's been good to me,

but I'll never have enough sunscreen. No, it's just TK is, she was, I don't know, I was very impressed with her and I thought, it's cool. If I remember, you know, my brain is failing rapidly, but if I remember, I'll give a shout-out to my friend who works at Blue Mercury, kind of midtown, just Central Park South, who helped out a struggling rapidly burning Conan O'Brien. Did you find TK? I found it. TK, TK? I found it.

TK, TK, AY. I think this is her. Yes, yes, that's her. That's TK. Shout out to TK. Well, I'm glad you got sunscreen. Yeah. You need it.

Yeah, thanks so much. You really, really, really need it. Well, we're gonna do that. Or you'll die. Well, yeah. It's the slowest moving cancer, skin cancer. Here we go. Oh, God. Oh, man. Sorry to bum moving cancer skin cancer. Here we go. Oh god

Sorry to bum everyone out. It just means it's easy. Just get checked out everybody. I get checked out every 30 minutes I got it. I got it would drive through dermatologist. I'm like Hey, my guest today is a hilarious writer actor and comedian behind such shows as catastrophe and pulling Her latest show is absolutely amazing. Bad Sisters just want a Peabody award and is available to stream on Apple TV Plus. Also, they just won the BAFTA, which is a huge deal. So very excited she's here today.

["Sharon Horgon"] Sharon Horgon, welcome. ["Sharon Horgon"] I was on my way in here apprehensive, because I was like, she's Irish. I know that you, you know, were born, I think, in London, but I think of you as Irish. And the Irish are going to claim you whether you want to be claimed or not, because of all your success. I don't think we claimed. Yeah.

The Irish are tougher on me than anybody. Are they? They are. Well, I suppose for the most part, we are we are tough on our own. We are tough on our own. And then occasionally not like I was there last weekend at the, do you know the iftas? I don't know the iftas. Well, they're like the Irish bafters. Okay. The Irish Film and Television Academy Awards. And they are really like bad sisters. I don't think they've ever really liked anything I've done before, not so much. Really? Yeah, well not in a way where it was like it just felt like they really liked it, so they're

really happy with me. I think that's fantastic. And it's deserved. Thank you. First of all, I loved catastrophe. Thank you. But I think maybe there was enough Irish people in catastrophe for the Irish. Right. I mean, there was me. But you're living in that, you're living in London in that show. Yeah. Maybe I could see the Irish going, what's going on here? What's your heart London. What's London got it? We don't got. And then, but bad sisters, I watched this show. Absolutely loved it.

I think you're brilliant. You're such a good writer. This cast you put together, and then you, the key. And I don't want to give away too much. I want people to watch this show. What I will tell you is it's a group of sisters, and their common enemy is someone they would like to get rid of. And for something like this to work, in my opinion, you really have to hate that person.

The villain has to be because otherwise you're terrible, terrible people. Yeah. And good God, did you do a good job? I've never hated anybody more than I hated this brother-in-law of yours. The actor is absolutely fantastic. But every episode that went by, I just hit ENJOYED with me thing. He has to kill him. We have to give him his fantastic.

Absolutely. Odious. Man. And also, you had to make sure that you didn't show all his terribleness in that first, exactly. Exactly. You kind of, first of all,

you just think, you wouldn't want to sit beside him at a dinner party. Right. He's just like an awful uncle or I don't know why I chose uncles, but they are the worst of all, the relatives, I suppose. So he's a part of this family, but they don't really like them, they just have to put up with them. And then it's slowly over the course of the season, he, you know, becomes more and more of a monster until it's it's it's criminal and it's

Yeah, he's one of the worst people I've ever encountered. He is. And he's fictitious. The fact that he really existed, I wouldn't wanna live in that world. But they probably do, I mean, they probably exist all over the planet. I mean, I-

I work in television. Of course, yes. American television. We've met them. We've worked with them. We've worked for them. I've been that guy for decades in my life. I hope not.

Oh, no, I'm him right now, actually. But no, I would like to think I'm not. But a lot of people got in touch and said, you know, my sister is married to someone like that. Or I had someone like that my life for a long time. And so I know, I know they're right there. So so much to talk about. We start with, you know, we know they're right there. So, so much to talk about. We start with, we brought up this Irish connection.

My, I'm 100% Irish, I got a genetic test. I might be more Irish than you. But you are. And there's a lot in the culture, even though I've moved, you know, not lived in Ireland. I've visited certainly, but there's a lot of it that I understand on a lecture in my life. In your blood, in your bones.

Yeah. And I was telling you just before I went, there's the first time I went to Ireland to shoot some comedy, the first guy I ran into, you said, ah, you're here to take the piss out of patty area. Like you're here to fuck with us, are you? And I thought, no, I'm here to just get some good content. And the joke is going to be and I thought no I'm I'm here to just get some good content and the joke is gonna be I mean I will see And you're just on you right away. Oh, yeah, what are you up to yeah, you're making fun of us are yeah

It's it's a big big part of the personality just to Near just to be a sneer just to take the piss out of everyone right which is good, because it means you can't get any delusions about yourself. Not even for a second. Not for a second. But also, I know I'm one of six. I'm a kind of a- I'm a five. And you're a one of five.

And so my brothers and sisters, even though I've had this measure of success in my business, they, I know they love me and I know they're proud of me, but it's just constant put down. Good. And I know, and when I come home, it's, you know, they give me shit that I didn't empty the dishwasher back in 1978.

You know what I mean? And it's all that. And I'll say, you know, I just had this nice thing thing happened for me and they you know, they gave me a medal and they're like, uh-huh. Yeah You didn't do the dishwasher in 1978 you So that's what it's like you you must get that from your sibling my my siblings are Honestly my best friends and the best people I know and they are incredibly supportive and lovely about everything, but also they didn't give a shit. Why should they?

My brother played rugby for Ireland. So nothing I did would ever reach that in any way. He's stood on a pitch and sung the national anthem while 30,000 other people sang it. He's held their hopes and dreams in his hand on home turf. He's got two hands actually. They're in his hands. Really? That's so impressive. I've read about him. It's incredible what he can do. The 200 rugby fair. By the way, I've read about him. It's incredible what he can do. The 200 rugby fire. Yeah.

And by the way, I'd be impressed if I understood rugby. I guess it's like a market football, but just much better and I know it. No one wears those sitting costume. Uh-huh. I'm looking forward to it. I want to see it. I want to explain to me. It's very, it's, you know, it's a beautiful

sports. Yeah. But you all, so yes, you're getting the support, but also it keeps you in check. Because I mean, I'll bring it up. How can you, you just want a BAFTA, which is a huge deal. I know. And I'm telling you for the first. Oh, yeah. Thank you. It just came in over the wire. You want a BAFTA. You want a Nobel Peace Prize. No, you want a BAFTA. You want a P body. I mean, this is credible, heavy stuff. Were you there for the BAFTA ceremonies? I was. So you just flew in. I just flew in. Okay. That, that, can I just say that that is why I said, I'm exhausted to meet you. I mean, of course, I mean, I, I'd be thrilled to be your friend. If we ended up having a tight bond. No, but not buying it.

No, I'm only exhausted because I am actually exhausted. I know you flew in. Just really stupid. I didn't think it through. I hadn't looked at the dates properly and then it was done. And I just thought, no, that'll be fine because I write quite well on a plane. Like, you know, because you don't have Wi-Fi unless you buy it and even then it's...

I can't figure out how to buy it. I have never figured out how to buy it. And I think once I successfully did it, it was an accident. Did you just get really delirious and start laughing on your own? I started just trying all kinds of different things and then I got the Wi-Fi and I was so Excited the captain had to come out and calm me down

Oh And no one was flying the plane for a bit. Yeah, I just worry. I worry about it Still, you know that something will if I've got the Wi-Fi on something else will turn off, you know Yeah, that's exactly how it works Are you one of those people that think if you accidentally leave your phone if it's not on airplane, the plane will crash? Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's when I find my kids, I'm like, turn. You're an air flight mode on because it's really dangerous. This plane might go down. Yeah, so I can write really well on a plane because I don't have Wi-Fi and I'm just, you know, Yeah, so I can write really well on a plane because I don't have Wi-Fi and I'm just, you know,

nothing else to do. So I thought, I'll write and it'll be okay, but it's, you know. I swear to God when I saw, because the big story, sharing that you would want the BAFTA and it's this picture of you and all the cast and you're in London, I told my publicist as well, I won't be interviewing her. She's now way too big, too big for us. I won't be seeing her. So I was pleasantly surprised that you showed up, but then did the math in my head and realized. I'd be knackered. Yeah. Well, I was at the webby's last night.

OK, I came over to do that as well. I preferred if you would said I flew here to just to see you calling. Now we have to bring up this webby shit. I'm also going to the Irish Arts Center later today. I did tell you that it was the embassy, and then I remembered that it's not actually, it's the... Oh, you lied.

I did. Well, I didn't lie. I mean, I'm jet lag, so I think I just said that word instead of Irish Arts Center. But, yeah, so, did you know that the webbies, you can, you just do a five word speech. Yes. Well, the, the, the, a man was getting an award there who had invented emojis.

Can you believe that? Uh-huh. And he did a five emoji speech. Oh, really? And everyone went, oh, when they saw the emojis, it just popped up on screen. It was, it was really, it was really,

I felt I was in the future. Did you feel at all that, okay, writing as we know it is over? You will be replaced by emojis. That's what you should have been. That's where my mind goes. Really. I try not to think like that.

I mean, I think emojis are great, but you know, they have limits. I don't. You can miss and interpret an emoji. I have, many times. It's been quite embarrassing for me. I thought I was having an affair. And it turned out no. Someone's just really angry with you.

Someone wanted me to pick up eggplant after school. Someone wants to go to the farmer's market. And I misunderstood. It's not my fault. That can happen with words, so right? That's a terrible thing if you misinterpret. Or if you're like, you're not sure. That's the worst.

If you're kind of on on the fence yeah like are they trying to say that they feel a certain way about me or yeah just a strange yeah I don't know so's email email is very strange but I had a waitress yesterday here in New York I did an interview and then we went out to lunch and I was talking to her you went out to lunch and I was talking to her. You went out to lunch with the white dress after you did you and she did. Did I say that incorrectly? I thought I did it out there that, and I don't want my wife to know that I'm dating a waitress here in New York while she's in Los Angeles.

That's what I'm trying to say. And no, I went to a restaurant with some of the people I work with here and the waitress made some quip and she said I need to tell you that my I cannot register sarcasm and She told me that and I don't even think I was trying to be sarcastic I think I was just said something silly not so Acastic yeah, but she said I do need to tell you Well, I cannot register sarcasm on people's faces and I never have. But what's the worst that could happen in that case?

She's just not enjoying your, your joke, your sarcasm. That's to me that's the lowest level of hell. This, yes, someone not enjoying what I'm doing at any given moment, especially a woman for some reason. That's some etapul craziness that's going on with me. You don't need to solve. It is strange to me because I did have an Irish therapist for a number of years.

Oh, really? She was terrific and she was here in New York and she was great. But the one thing I learned from her is that the Irish don't say, um, Americans go, she would go, M-E-M. Oh, I say, I don't Oh, I think you say M. I say, I say, I know that for a fact.

Okay. I'm going to look at that. I had the piss taking at me in school. Relentlessy. Because you did say M. I guess. Yeah. But then maybe that's my, you know,

spent the first three years of my life in London. Oh. Maybe I learned the M there. Yeah. Not the air. Tell me about yourself. Young girl, did you know that this was what you're interested in? You're interested in writing or just in creating? Did you know at a young age, this is for you, or is it something you've

figured out later on? I think I knew at a young age. I knew that I liked to make people laugh, because and that would be, I guess, the big family thing, wouldn't it? Yes. So I did very bad impressions, and, you know, we do them for my mum and dad. And, you know, I liked to write,

but I think I thought my path was acting and comedy acting specifically. That was what I was drawn to. Gosh, it just took so long and nothing was happening at all. I know this about you and it doesn't make sense to me that it took so long because the concept of you waiting around for any period of time and nobody seeing it, seeing it was kind of crazy. Yeah, I think I was like 36 or something when I got pulling, which is our first thing that Dennis Kelly and I wrote, but yeah, previous to that. But then I have to say, I think it was also my fault.

I think I was just, you know, I'm not very good at putting myself out there or, you know, I've kind of done a bit of headwork on it and thought, well, maybe I was sort of worried about failing or something, you know, so that if I put myself out there and if I tried and I failed, then that's it. And at least if I kept putting it off and just like getting stoned or whatever, then

maybe I could say, well, I haven't given it a proper go. Yeah. Right. So possibly that. Have you done therapy? Have you have you explored therapy? I do it more now, not so much. Because Freud famously said, the only people that are immune to therapy are the Irish.

Really? Yeah. And I mean, I like to think he was wrong because I've had a ton of it, but he just thinks that where he, I think he just thought, yeah, those Irish, they, I can't crack him. That's, do you know where that like,

well, did it just come from him get a few bad gigs? I don't know what it was. I don't know where it comes from. I may even be quoting him, but I've often heard this quote that that he said that, uh, yeah, the Irish, the, you know, like, therapy will work on anyone, not the Irish. And it kind of makes sense to me because all my friends who went and saw Banshee's of Ineshear and came away and said, oh my God, what madness, what madness, you know, the throwing fingers at the door and the donkey dying and just madness in this ridiculous spat over nothing.

And I watched the movie and said, yeah, that adds up. I think my relatives are about one click away from throwing, severing fingers and throwing them at each other. But yeah, it isn't interesting. We had confession, I suppose. You know, just go into a little box and say everything you did wrong. I mean, I think that's how I do therapy, really. I mean, I always assume I'm doing it wrong anyway.

Isn't it really just someone making you feel okay about your bad choices? Yes. It is. You're paying someone to say, you know, I would. I would. Many people abandon their family and go on a nine day cocaine binge in Las Vegas and then kill a prostitute. Yeah, exactly. Kill a prostitute. and go on a nine day cocaine binge in Las Vegas. And then... Kill a prostitute.

Yeah, exactly. Kill a prostitute. But then in order they'd say, are you sorry? You could say yes. And then you get some... Six Hail Marries. And then you're all like, you got a clean slate. Yeah.

I mean, I went to confession. I haven't been to confession in a long time, but I remembered thinking, what metric are they using to figure out how many hellmarys, how many? I don't know. And it was so specific. Yeah. Well, I, you know, I got this rental car and I scraped it up a bit, but then I covered it with white out and I'm like, oh, yeah, that would be for our fathers and six hellmarys.

Yeah. And then you'd say, oh, and on the way back, I ran into a whole bunch of people at a crosswalk and fled the scene. Okay, seven hell. And at what point do they just call the police? I don't know. I mean, I haven't been to, I stopped confession quite young actually, because it did freak me out.

It's scary. I found it very scary. And I remember telling my mom that I found it scary and she's very sweet about it, she's you know pretty religious lady and So I said look I'll keep going to Mars, but I don't want to I don't want to do the confession thing I went to Convince school the sacred horse and They would do big Confession like galas

Where in our sports halls like all priests from all around the area And I don't know maybe there's a couple of cardinals or they would they would fill the hole and we would all They'd be all like situated at different spots and you get into these big cues All all the all the students would be in the middle and you get into these cues and you'd be like Oh, which priest have I got to go? And then you'd make your way up and then you would confess to them. And then you would confess and it was kind of felt a bit out in the open because you know, you're not in a box like you normally are.

That's so insane. I mean, in this country, what you were describing is a pep rally. It's an event where people get together and go go team and maybe use some punch or a prom. And you guys turned it into a you queue up to talk to a priest about something terrible. Are your sins? Yeah. But drinks are served. I'm hoping.

Well, you know when you're when you're little and you do it, you kind of you end up making them up like I would lie. That's what I did. I always make them up. Yeah. Because you're just a, I mean, you don't really do any bad shit when you're, I mean, apart from, I mean, obviously there's some evil children right there. But, no, but there's, I, I, it's funny you say that because I distinctly remember making things.

Yeah. And sometimes I got too creative and I'd say, you know, I forged a bank note and they'd be like, well, I'm eight, youly, remember, making things. And sometimes I got too creative. And I'd say, I forged a bank note, and it'd be like, well, I'm eight. I committed wire fraud. I would say things just to try and, you know, that I had heard about that I didn't know. Or you'd use things you'd read like, I, there was a pie cooling on the,

oh, by the open window. The year was 1932, and I stole a pie from a cooling window, and then lived down by the ocean window. The year was 1932 and I stole a pie from a cooling window and then lived down by the train tracks and it beans out of a can. You know, I think people don't, it would be inspiring for people to know a lot of artists, actors, writers struggle, but you were really living on the edge for a while when you were starting out, meaning more or less squatting in places to kind of, because you didn't necessarily couldn't make rent. Yeah, I mean, I was squatted for about three and a half years.

Good God. But you know, it might have been longer. I think it was in one place three and a half years, and then I sort of squatted in a few other areas around London, so it's probably a bit longer than that. But it was a bit of a lifestyle thing as well. I mean, I had a job and you know, I just wasn't, you know, clearly I wasn't, I wasn't in the industry at that point. I was working in in Kilibrand, actually, the most Irish place in London that I could possibly find and was working in a job center. So it didn't earn very much, but it definitely earned enough for rent. It was kind of a...

It was a bit of a bohemian choice. I think it was a bohemian choice. I arrived in London with 90 quid, so I couldn't afford rent when I came over first, but then I got a job. But at that point, I was just part of this lifestyle. I guess loads of Irish people. And there was a lot of, we lived in a high-rise flat and we occupied an apartment on the 18th floor. It was furnished with stuff that we found on the street. It was just kind of fun. When I stopped doing it, I squatted this sort of disused shop in in Canton and we got like, you know, the heavies came around.

Because really it was legal at the time. As long as you got into the building and you didn't cause any damage or if you did, you know, if you work in... It wasn't a big deal, no. It wasn't a big deal. You had like squatters rights. But then if you squatted a property that was private and, you know know the landlord knew if you lads with baseball bats then it wasn't great. So that's what happened. They kind of like rushed, rushed us. Please tell me you're staying at a hotel here in New York. I love the idea that you would win the BAFTA, give a speech, leave the theater or the auditorium with all the flash bulbs and the cheers and good

and then go out to an alley and light. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Hold habits die hard. I have a home now and yeah. I just wanted to determine that. Yeah, I'm just worried about you. I do worry.

So you're such a, I'll use the word impeccable. I think your writing is impeccable. You're such a, I'll use the word impeccable. I think your writing is impeccable. You're such a great terrific writer. And I know I started as a writer and struggled with this transition into performing. I knew it's what I wanted to do, but had trouble figuring out what's my path. You said that initially you thought of yourself

as someone who would be in front of the camera, but at what point do you realize, I can write. can write I'm a this is I have a superpower here. God I don't know like really really recently because I think I really do think if you start as a performer you sort of you continue to see yourself as that and you feel a bit cheeky calling yourself a writer. keep calling yourself a writer. So you'd be like, I'm an actor and I do bit of writing. And you know, because it was something I sort of learned on the job, you know, and I had a lot of great people along the way who, you know, taught me how to be better. I felt like I was kind of, you know, I kind of felt it was down to them. And I kind of felt like if I if I was I was just cast away on my own, I wouldn't be able to do it. I just built this thing in my head. So I really just had to start doing it on my

own before I even remotely considered myself to be a writer. Then I just had to build up confidence with that. You just convinced yourself it was a fluke. We said, your initial show, you have the success and then it's not followed up right away. Is that right? Oh yeah. With pulling, it's just, it was, which maybe rattles the confidence a little bit.

Was that just a one off? Was that just all I had in the tank? I absolutely thought that was, that was a one off. And I got really, really lucky with pulling because I mean, I started in sketch comedy and you know, there was kind of a team of us and I really enjoyed that. But then once I started writing sitcom, once I started writing characters and narrative, I thought, well, no, this is everything, this is all I want to do now. So, you know, I wrote loads of pilots and just got on

this conveyor belt of making part over in L.A. I thought, oh, well, I'll make my fortune over here. And there was this thing that I'd never experienced in the UK of being a success to get a pilot, to make a pilot. And that whole thing of everyone gets on the phone and they tell you they're gonna pick up your pilot. That's what it means. Everyone loves it. Yeah, and then it doesn't get made in 10th thing, but that's not considered failing really.

Like you come over the next year and you have another good, you got another pilot and I was like, hey, whereas I just felt like I was kind of going around in circles for, I mean, five years at least. Just, and also I had this thing where I was kind of making pilots that were ending up as something that I didn't even if they got picked up, I would, and I'm like, I don't wanna make that.

Yeah. You know, because it changes. You got your notes. You get your notes. Change things a little bit. And then, especially if you're new, if you're a bit of a rookie, you're kind of going, you know, they do that thing when they say, well, if you make this change,

it's just for the sales tool, it's just, you know, we'll make this change. We'll add the voice over. It won't be like that in the series, we'll just add a voice over across the whole thing. Right. And then in series, you know, and so you kind of get caught up in that a bit

and you make all these changes and you end up with something that isn't remotely like, you know, the thing you sort of hoped it would be. And so for the most part, most of the time I was just kind of praying that things wouldn't get picked up. I don't know if you've had this, but one of my favorite times is when I'm done

with the performance and I'm meeting with everybody in the dressing room afterwards and we're going through the show and talking about everything. And then I know we're going out to dinner and I get to have some wine. That moment when I'm wiping the makeup off, but I know I'm going off to dinner and we're all going to be wiseasses, but the show is a success. That's a moment that I absolutely adore. And I know it's never going to be wise asses, but the show is a success. Yeah. That's a moment that I absolutely adore. Yeah. And I know it's never going to be quite that good again, you know, until I get to the next

one. Yeah. Because it can change on a dime, can't it? Yeah. You know, like I've had, you know, I've been pretty happy with something and someone's gone in and sort of fiddled with it and I've watched it and gone, I want it to load a full shit. I mean, this is clearly a terrible piece of work. And so it doesn't take much from each and sort of lose my confidence.

And because I do think there is not a huge amount of difference in, and you know, when something's good and great, right? It's just like detail and, you know, trusting yourself and your taste and all that. You've done a great job of finding these other people because I know you met Rob Delaney through Twitter and you guys of course work together on catastrophe and that's how I met you. You came on and doing that and remember that grabbing my attention and thinking, okay, this person is really special, but you, you know, finding voices that you know, I can work with this person.

This person, finding a good creative partner is not unlike going on a good date. It's just finding that we've got that freeze on, we've got something for next. Yeah, I've been really lucky. I don't know how it's worked out for me, really. I mean, because I make a show in the UK called Motherland, and that is with you know, co-righteous as well. And I don't know, I've just gotten really lucky, I think, because I do, it's a scary thing, isn't it? It's a really scary thing, and you know, any of my writing partners I've gone through, like, you know, I've lost confidence with myself, you know, where I've found it too hard to sort of say something that I think is funny just because of, you know,

just losing my confidence. But it's getting to that place where you feel like an old married couple where you really don't give a shit, you know, where you will fart in front of them and not be worried, you know, if it smells. I mean, that's a metaphor. I'm not, I don't fart in front of Rod Delaney or Dennis Kelly or. Well, I think you just said you did. And we've got that now. We've, I like to say we've got it on tape,

but I know it's all digital. Where do I come from in different time? But you know, you know, the thing of like not being scared. You say something stupid, you say something not funny. Well, you know, all the people like not being scared. You can say something cheap, or you say something not funny. All the people that I love working with, I love my exercises. What's the worst thing I could do in this situation?

What's the, and I spin out these wild scenarios of we're here in a restaurant. What's the worst thing I could do? They would end my, end me, and it's just something where I make a complete total ass in myself. And it's just something where I make a complete total ask myself. And I spin it out in great detail,

and I can always see it perfectly clearly. And people will be laughing at that. And I don't know what it is, but it's this comfort that I can say these horrible things to my friends about what I'm going to do in this restaurant that will finish me forever. And we talk about it and it's just a joy. It's a joy to have people like that in your life.

You know, one of the things that I was most bloomy away I was thinking about this from a writing standpoint with bad sisters is you're one of, is it how many sisters is it? I'm trying to count up. You're one of how many sisters in this? In my real life or about, I'm in bad sisters. It's one of, is it, how many sisters is it? I'm trying to count up. You're one of how many sisters in bed? In my real life, or about, I'm in bed. In bad sisters, it's one of five.

It's one of five, yeah. That's right, so it's, yeah. It's same number of siblings in real life, but you're one of five. And I was watching the show and each sister is so distinct. Each one has a different voice. Each one is a very complete character. I believe totally that they're sisters, but also they're completely separate from each other and they

have very different voices. And I thought, that's incredible writing because I don't know how you do that. It's a, it feels like a magic trick to me. Oh, it, you know, I do think that, well, I have to say that there is, you know, the original series, Clan, the Belgian series. Right, right. Well, it was great. And you really, like, the thing that made me fall in love with it and want to adapt it was, was the sisters and their, and their relationship.

But I think, I think it is the hardest thing to do because whenever, whenever I write anything, all you have is like, you know, you write down a name and you decide someone's called you know Bob or whatever and that is just I always go with I always start with Bob whether it's a woman a man a dog it's Bob I used to call all my characters either I think I think it was Harry if it was a man and Louise if it was a female and I finished a script once and realized there was two characters in the script called Harry. That's how far they were some names. But I'm gonna take back all my compliments

about your writing. You're a terrible writer. No, but you know you start, you start out with them. I think the character comes over time. I think you do like a lot of character work leading up to sitting down and actually starting, but still they're not defined, you know, and I think it's just something that, you know, you have to, you just have to give a lot of time to, and you choose people in your life that it's based on,

but even that's not enough, you know, you kind of, as you write it, you kind of realize that there's just certain idiosyncrasies there and you just keep leaning into it. And it risks at a certain point, it risks becoming a sort of caricature, you know, becoming, you know, if you decide like with Ursula, we just decided that she should just really shit her pants. More than any of the others, she's such a, you know, she's got so much responsibility in her life

and she has a disabled son and she's a nurse and she's the kind of character who you think would, you know, have it all together. Yeah, but the very thought of getting caught doing this thing, just, you know, the panic in her. It's surprising that she's the one that's transgressing. It's a nice word.

But you're lovely. I wanna. Let's write a series together called transgressing. Oh, I think, yeah. What would be that? You seem really thrilled about this idea. I've managed to get. Types are hard.

Sharon Horge and to agree to doing a project with me called transgressing. And it's at this, you know, you've never been more powerful. Maybe just transgression because I think titles with Aing have sort of, they've done the round something they've kind of, you know, there's enough, there's enough Aing's. So you were already fighting. But anyway, you know, you kind of, you need,

you need into it and then you, you hope it doesn't become a cartoon. And then with the sisters, I kind of thought, I've been all of those ages. I've been back here, and even though I haven't lost an eye ever, I've been angry. I've been to my life. I've been a very angry woman. You know, I've not been the oldest child, but I was able to draw my own sister for that.

And you just try and give as much truth, I think. I think that's the thing. When people dig your show, it's normally because they really believe it, right? And because I know that's what I love watching. It doesn't matter if the characters are, you know, really great people or monsters, as long as I believe them, then I'm fully in. I am in awe of a lot of this because I don't do it, meaning I started in sketch, stayed in sketch.

The only writing I did at length was for the Simpsons. So literally cartoon. But what a great, what a great family character. Oh, great, I mean, such a great gig, and I loved it, and it's some of my favorite stuff that I've done, but I never, even though I've had a great career as a writer,

never delved into storytelling, and on the level that, you know, someone like yourself doing where you figure out these people and you figure out who they are and you breathe life into them. And so that's why I find it endlessly fascinating. And when someone's so good at it, I'm just, I just want to keep asking them how you do that. And the end of the day is you can just do it.

I think, well, I don't know. It's definitely something that you're continuously learning all the time. You have to be, or you're screwed anyway. But I think what I try and do is take the characters out of the situation of the sitcom, or whatever it is, or the drama, and think, would they work outside of that particular situation?

And if they're still funny or interesting away from you know the office or that family or you know whatever it is, then then you think oh well I've got good characters. Well I will say this they're great characters and also really funny. I mean that's the great trick about bad sisters is that it is drama and it is suspense in moments, real suspense in moments, and really funny. Oh, thank you. And you've got such a great touch. I imagine, I don't know, but I just would have to imagine that there were times in your life where you're saying, I'm a writer and I know how to do this. And they're might have, I'm guessing people say, well, in a sexist way, no, you know, I'm a writer and I know how to do this and they're might have I'm guessing people say, well, in a sexist way, no.

You know, I'm just I'm going to make that assumption and you feel it. Of course that happened. Yeah. Of course that happened. I mean, it kind of, when I was starting out, it happened in quite a big way. I was part of a little sort of sketch. I'm troop and one of the, one of the chops and in the treat, just tell me that I was no writer. You know, he was like, you are a good producer,

you're a great producer. And, and, and he was going, you, and you are invaluable to me as, as a writer. What, what is he talking, what is he saying? He meant that I was able to bring the best out of him. But it just... But you couldn't possibly do it inside. But I couldn't be a writer myself. But it's weird that that kind of thing stays with you. And for a good while, I thought, no, I am a good producer. I do know how to...

I know, even when I would write with Rob, I would sort of feel like, no, I'm really good at getting the best at Rob, I'm good at, you know, pointing risers in the direction they should be going or helping sort of see the bigger picture, like the overview. But that's just, you know, makes me really angry to think of, you know, that's where my head was at, because when people sort of put limits on you, you kind of end up sort of limiting yourself. Yeah, you can buy it. You very easily buy into it. Really easily buy into it.

So that's how I just decided I was a producer for years. But no, I love writing. And I think that's how you become better at something, isn't it, when you kind of love it, and then you put the hours in. Yeah, I think for me it was all about, I wanted to be in front of the camera, but I wanted control. So I always liked being able to,

I could find great writers, but I also knew what my voice sounded like and I wanted to be able to write for myself. Yeah. And control that. And so, you know, I'm just, all I ask is that you, at some point, cast me. You know, I'm just all I ask is that you at some point cast me

You know, what would you like to what would you do? I'll be a waiter in the back. I mean, I'm really will take any shit part But I would just love to say I would love to say oh yeah, no, I'm working with Working with Sharon Horge and she's cast me you're in it, you know really yes And then even if it's just, I walk by in the background. I won't change my hair. That has to be as ridiculous as it is in real life. Okay.

But I will, so you're happy to be a big destruction within whatever scene it is. I will walk in in the background. It'll be basically a guy carrying a tray, but I will stop and I will shoot the lens with my eyes for just a moment and slightly smile, break the wall and then keep moving. Well, you know, you have got that level of charisma. You're the meanest person I'm going to talk to today. I love it. You could shut down my show. I'm going to kiss me and look. Just I want to stop the scene. I love it. I love it. I just want to. Oh yeah. Yeah. People would say we

love that part. That part tested through the ceiling where that American idiot in the background ruined everything. You are incredibly busy. You're a massive star. And you are on to bigger and better things today. But I want to congratulate you. I love bad sisters. Anyone who's listening right now hasn't seen it. Do yourself a major treat and watch it. It's absolutely delightful. And you're going to just in all the good ways. Thank you. And maybe some of the creepy ways, but we'll leave that for another day. And I'll see that you're escorted. Yeah, seriously. So please, yeah, I will not be that Irish person who's taking the piss out of you. I'm delighted for you. I would be I would be delighted to be

Sneared by you that would that would be that be glorious Apparently you met someone who has since reached out to us. This is Jay Elmore and he's the executive chef of E.J.'s luncheonette in New York City. And he says that he would like to name some specials after the hosts of the podcast, a Gorylie Burger, a Mopsessian salad, a Conan sandwich. Any ingredient, all make it happen. Someone was silly enough to put me in charge of a restaurant and I'm desperate for new ideas for specials. That's it. This is nice. I love this enough to put me in charge of a restaurant and I'm desperate for new ideas for specials.

That's it. This is nice. I love this. I think I remembered meeting this gentleman. I love it. Right outside EJ's luncheonette. And I would love. I will say it's a slippery slope, this sandwich thing, because I remembered getting a sandwich named after me once at a deli in New York City. And I was thrilled, thrilled. And it was the Conan and, you know, Corn Beef and, you know, Russian dressing and all this great stuff. And I was so thrilled it was at a Midtown diner. And what happens is you're excited and you go in,

and you look up and you see your name up there. And it's up there with, you know, get the Liza Manelli hot dog. Yeah. You know, get the Ediza Manelli hot dog. Yeah. You know, get the Ed Sheeran chilled broth. Uh, and then there is the Conan, and I got so excited and proud. And then I think I wondered by like a year later. Gone.

Oh, no. And so here's the thing about show business. You're so excited when you start on the way up. And then the inevitable fall. Come on. The sandwich disappears. The sandwich disappears. This is not the fault of the sandwich, not you.

No, I'm just saying that I'm excited to for us to create these sandwiches and they're going to be at EJs, right? Lunch and at. And I'm very excited about this and we should each think right now about what we want. But also I'm just telling you kids as the old veteran that one day you're gonna go by EJs and you're gonna see oh you know there's the there's the Sonomu Obsession hummus rap for whatever. Why? Oh, no, it's not like with lamb and why? Because you love your native land, my native land, land or land, either one's fine. But anyway, come on. No, it's true. And you know, the Gorley mayonnaise sandwich,

it's just mayonnaise. It's just mayonnaise. That sounds pretty good. But anyway, I'm telling you, there's gonna be the thrill, but then you're gonna wander by and then inevitably it's gone. And then you feel the crushing blow. That's you because you had a sandwich named after you. That's exciting.

It's not gonna be there forever. But you're like, oh, is it still there? It's not, well, I must be irrelevant then. I should just go die. That's what I said. That's not normal. That's what I exactly said when I saw that they had taken my sandwich away from this midtown establishment.

Yeah, but it was there once. Who cares if it's not there anymore? It's an honor just to be nom nom nom nom. Yeah, I mean, don't be sad. It's not there. Be happy. It ever happened. I don't know what the saying.

What did you just, I'm nom nom nom. I'm sorry. He's been, yeah, I can tell when you've been crafting an arrow, so and I are jabbering away and you're in the background crafting it. That one I did sit on for about nine times. No, not the other one. And then you're already upset. Oh, trust me, no.

The hardiness of it came through. No, I think that all I needed to be run over. No, but I think you're so dwelling on my, it's not there anymore. Okay, let's talk about the positive. What are your sandwich is gonna be? Thank you. What do you want, Gory? Minds a hummus wrap.

No, no, seriously, what is it? I don't mean to. What do you want it to be? Yeah, what's your, what's your, what's your food? When you first said that, I was like, well, obviously a euro. Ah. Ah.

Ah. Ah. I know because I see you eating that food all the time. I know, because I love it. I'm not profiling you. I'm saying that that's what you really want. When you say it, you are being like, well, son is ethnic.

So let's put some hummus in there. I say it because I actually do love euros. They're my favorite thing. I've been watching you eat them for 15 years. I've been watching you eat them for 15 years. And then I'm the one that's bad because I'm pointing out what you already like. I can say it.

Yes, thank you. Okay. Oh, I have to wait till you say the same what you eat every day. Yes. You said lamb. So what do you want? What do you want to call it? The sona is going to be what?

Specifically. Oh, specifically. I'm not that. Can you guys come back to me? Girls, you know, it's just said it was a sona euro. Yeah, that's true. But I don't call it the most session euro because it's, that's hard to pronounce. So just call it the sona euro.

It's the sona euro. Do you want any special ingredients in there besides what's normally in a year? I don't caught them off Sess in Euro because it's, that's hard to pronounce. So just caught the Sony Euro. It's the Sony Euro. Do you want any special ingredients in there? Besides, it's normally in a year. I don't want any fucking tomatoes in there. Okay. Yeah, I don't want any. Maybe it says I don't need the Sony Euro. No fucking tomato.

I think that's the key. We got it. And what about you, Gorley? I think I'm gonna be, and he said burger, but I really love a patty melt, but we'll call it the Matty Pelt. Okay. That sandwich will,

that will disappear immediately. Pelt, Pelt. Calls to mind a scouts. I'm gonna put scouts in a pelt. I want the beef to have grown a week's amount of mold that just looks like a pelt. Okay. Why not just the Maddie Melt?

It's cis. Yeah, just Maddie Melt. Just call it Maddie Melt. Yeah. Get the Maddie Melt. Okay, get the Maddie Melt. So what is it? What is on it?

Well, it's a sourd, no, let's go raw. You know, sourdough bread with a beef, a thin beef patty, like a smash burger patty. American cheese. And then there's maybe a little thousand island. Right. And then it's the most boring ingredients. And you're saying them, you're saying them

as if you've come up with the magical way to turn lead into gold. Behold! A thin patty and then no one saw this coming. Some cheese and just a tiny bit of grilled onions. Grilled onions. Oh, and here's something I'm going to put in there. A thousand island. I'm going to, and also it should have a little toothpick with an American flag that doesn't

include Hawaii in honor of it being like it's the 50s. Yeah, pre-Alaska and pre-Hawaii from 48. 48 states. Flag. Little. I just thought what if EJs is a Chinese investor. They're gonna get some very confused customers. Okay, I know what I want and it's very simple and it's not a bit. I love a corn bee sandwich with a coleslaw Russian dressings. Same one that got. I know. Who are you going at again? Oh, I got your hair.

You know what I want? I want it on a bulky roll. This is the exact same sandwich that I tried before. I think that one also had some turkey. This time I'm just going hardcore. It's corn beef. It's all corn beef, Russian dressing. I love Russian dressing.

Yeah, me too. Oh, I want to change something. I don't want sourdough bread. I want Hawaiian bread for mine, because that's what makes it different and that's what makes it delicious. They're never, each a can't stock Hawaiian bread. I love the one in 100,000000 time someone wants your kooky sandwich.

No, and it's going to have the flag with no Hawaii on the flag. Okay. Oh, I see. So I love Hawaiian bread. It's so good. I don't know what Hawaiian bread is. It is good. Oh, it's so good.

Yeah, it's all stuck together. It comes in that pack and it's laying flat. It all stuck together and you pull them apart and they're like little little Rules yeah, come well EJs Good luck with your with your final year in business as a restaurant If you want to enjoy any of these tasty treats go quickly Before this guy wisest up And learn a bit of time

Yes And why is this up? And learn. It's a time only. Yes. You've probably only got hours to get to EJ's luncheonette and try and buy these sandwiches. But sir, it was nice meeting you on the street. Yeah. And please never try. And you, many businesses have tried to ride the Conan O'Brien train to Big Riches.

And it never works out. All right. Good luck to you E.J.'s. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonom of Sessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley, executive produced by Adam Sachs, Nick Liao, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Your Wolf. Themesong by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy.

Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our Associate Talent Producer is Jennifer Samples, engineering by Eduardo Perez, additional production support by Mars Melnick, talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brick Khan. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan?

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