Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook of The Rest Is History Podcast

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Historians Dominic Sandbrook & Tom Holland feel surprisingly aroused and chuffed, respectively, about being Conan O’Brien’s friends. Hosts of The Rest Is History podcast Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland sit down with Conan to discuss laughing through the grimmest historical episodes, all-time favorite heroes of yore, and allowing history to remind us that everything is cyclical. Later, Conan consults his (not so) fake lawyer David Melmed about singing popular songs on the podcast. For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone]. Get access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/conan. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hi, my name is Dominic Sambrick, and I feel surprisingly aroused about being Conan O'Brien's friend. Okay, you understand that. Hi, my name is Tom Holland, and I feel chuffed about being Conan of Brian's friend. Okay, looking that up now on UK slang. Fawn is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brandy show. Walk and lose Climb the fence Books and pens

I can tell that we are going to be friends I can tell that we are going to be friends Hey there Welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a friend Shocking

Shocking revelation today Sonam of Sessian is not with us Her chair like Tiny Tim's Little stool in the corner is empty Just a crutch She's not here No Instead it's just Matt

Nye, which is nice, because this is a different dynamic for us. There's none of that her braying laugh. Yeah. She's a nice icebreaker, though, because isn't it a little awkward as just you and me, you know? Reminds me of an old Norm MacDonald joke. He said, yeah, I went to, went home for Thanksgiving and saw the family, and my dad and I accidentally made eye contact. And I thought, God damn it, I relate to that.

So now we have to look in each other's eyes. No, you can't do it? No, I can't do that. I can't do that. But do you know where Sona is? I don't. No one told me where she went to me. You're going to love this.

Okay. She is speaking, I think, a featured guest speaker at an assistance convention. No, she's not. Is that a bit? I swear to God. This is not a bit. This is true. Yeah.

I can just see your eyes glowing. No, I'm sorry. Is it a how-to or like a cautionary tale? I don't know. No, I think she is, you know. Is it a scared straight? She turns the chair around backwards and sits down. Look, guys, if you want to be an assistant, don't do what I did.

Wow. So she's telling people how to be an assistant. Ostensibly, I don't know if it's a Q&A or she's doing a speech about it, but she is. Could be a trial. War crimes. Maybe it's an entrapment. She's like Ikemen. She's in a glass booth.

she's wearing headphones people are coming up and testifying against her we may never see her again no we're not going to see her because i know what the verdict's going to be wow that's incredible she also found out recently before going to this that it's for a bunch of tech company assistants yeah so it's not even like industry entertainment right assistance this is specifically tech oh this is a disaster i mean i wish we could find out where it is and quickly drive over there in a van. Let's find out when she's back, remind me we have to dig down deep on what happened. We'll do a whole segment on it. Yeah, because it's just astounding to me. But, you know, we love our sona. We do miss her. We do. Rest in peace.

Yeah, well, no, please. She's fine. Oh. You always go to her right to rest in peace. Well, that was a good meal. Yep. Rest in peace. No. How are you? Oh, I'm... This is a chance for us to really Drill down. How are you, Matt Gourley, as a person, has your life? It's good. Look at me, I'm right here. No, I can't. I can't do it. Look at me. Right past you.

Oh, wow. I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. How are you? Well, you didn't say anything and then you put it right back on me. How am I going to find out about you? What do you want to know?

I'm an open book. You aren't. You aren't an open book. How are things at home? How's everything going? Good, good. My daughter's cracking me up daily. How old is she now?

She's going to be four in. And well, by the time this comes out. Okay. Yeah. Very good. Yeah, this doesn't air for three years. So that's great. Yeah.

Is she funny? She's really funny. Yeah. She's a character, man. She rules the house. She's like beta to the rest of the world, but it's just horrible alpha to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's what happens. Is it? They're like lovely to other people and then they come home and they're absolute Mussolini's. You're not kidding. Yeah. Even when it comes down to play, like she gives me my line. lines for when we're playing. She dictates them to me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you're miserable at home. I'm having some struggles. Well, feel free to, you know, talk to me anytime about anything

that's going on in your life. I'd rather not. I'd rather you didn't either. Okay. All right. You know, you should do, schedule it with David Hopping. Okay. Now, there's an assistant. I could talk to him. You know, who's not going to go to an assistance convention is David hopping. Yeah. You know. How are you? I got to ask David. Okay. David keeps my schedule. and he tells me how I am. I'm doing very well, thank you. And I am going to head east to New York very shortly to help this is a new experience for me

promote a film that I'm in. I know, this is exciting. Yeah, and I'm, this is a new thing for me to say, you got to go check out my picture, see? I mean, that's nothing I've aspired to or ever thought would happen. You should come on this podcast. I should come on this podcast.

Yes. We should take, you know what we should do? We should tape me talking and asking questions and then switch it around and I'll do the other side. It's a good idea, actually. Do a video promo. I mean, actually, it's an idea that I said, which by definition is a good idea. It's, yeah, it's an idea that I said. Nice tune, Mozart. Not necessary. Not necessary. God, what a prick. I don't know why anybody talks to me. This is why I'm trying to get out of it. You're being paid.

Yeah. No, I do like talking to you, and I can look you in the eye, and I am happy. Well, you're blinking in Morse code. Please, save me. Yeah, so that's my story. I'm in the pictures. Let's end this. We should get to this because this is a really fun.

No. Okay. I want out. Will you read the intro for Christ's sake? Okay. Wow. Religious. My guest today are two historians who co-host, one of the most successful history podcasts in the world. The rest is history. I listen to these gentlemen all the time. They're always in my ear, and they are brilliant. Tom Holland and Dominic Sanbrough, welcome. Gentlemen, I'm going to begin by saying that.

it is quite a come down for me to have you on the podcast. And I'll explain why. I have a very large ego. And for a while, I believed that I had the greatest podcast in the world. I really did. I really thought I cannot be touched. No one can come close. And then one day, several years ago, I heard someone mention this podcast called The Rest is History. And I'm a history buff. I listen to one episode. I listened to two. I listen to three and four. I've now listened to possibly 300 or 400 of your 800. I'm working my way through. And I have to concede that you have the greatest podcast. That's gracious. You will always have the greatest podcast. I'm loving this podcast. There is, I am, I am an addict. I'm here to confess my addiction. And I, you're in my ears all

the time. And whenever people ask me, what podcast do you listen to? I don't give them a list. I say it's the rest is history with Tom and Dominic. I was starstruck when I heard your voices and I was in the room upstairs in my Larchmont. This is a palace, really. I heard your voices. I couldn't believe that you were here.

So not since I met George Harrison back in Saturday Night Live back in the day, have I been this excited. And you met Paul McCartney? Yes, I've met Paul McCartney. But we're more exciting. Yeah, you guys are, no, no. I'm going to put you on the same level. Okay.

What's like you? You're on the same level. So gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Really. Thank you. Thanks so much for having us. That's all the time we have. It's been lovely having you.

It's fine. You've said enough for us. Let's end it there. It's not going to get better. I love history. And my favorite thing about your show is that the history is brilliant. And I feel very well researched and you're both very knowledgeable. But it's funny.

And I'm a big believer in keeping two opposing ideas in your head at the same time. You guys will talk about some of the grimmest things in the history of the world, like World War I, but there'll be sections where you can't stop laughing. And I'm laughing with you. And I love that because both things are true. World War I might be the worst thing that ever happened to humanity.

It's absolutely terrible and a war that was fought for no reason. And then I will find myself, you two will get talking about the Kaiser and what a ridiculous man the Kaiser was and I will be crying I'm laughing so hard along with you is humor the way into this no actually so the story is the way in

did you disagree with me I did yeah let me set out the school right away let me explain where you are right now you're in America former common okay go ahead you've actually got 250 years

of back taxes to pay again oh yes come on you knew that was coming I knew it was good I think the story is the way in always and the characters but the humour emerges naturally. So we don't try to impose the humour on the story.

But, you know, you're doing the Kaiser, who's a ridiculous man, who's coming up with all these mad schemes to invade places and whatnot, and is basically smouldering with fury because he thinks his British relatives despise him, and that's what drives him. And you've got all these generals with gigantic mustaches and they've all got emphysema. Yes.

And all of that. I mean, that's true to the history. It's not us imposing it on it. Yes. And if you can blind yourself to that and say, know history is terribly serious and very desiccated, but the humour is part of the human condition. I think that there's a case for seeing the whole sweep of human history as a very dark comedy. Yeah.

Because history essentially is the record of people not getting what they want, people over-inflating their own sense of worth. And so there is a kind of inherent strain of comedy that runs throughout almost every period of history that you look at. And I guess that even the very darkest episodes it's it's a comedy in the sense that dante wrote the divine comedy yeah it's the sense that um sometimes you have to you have to laugh so that you don't weep yeah yeah i think uh to me reference a one of my favorite british comedies of all time black adder there's a sense of so much of the humor from black adder and also from the python films was just bring out your dead, bring out your dead in Holy Grail, and so much of the comedy in life of Brian. The British

are uniquely very good at doing this, seeing the dark and the absurdly comical at the exact same moment. Yeah. And holding both molecules together as they bounce off each other. Yeah, people are funny, right? Yeah. Human beings behave at least. Many aren't, by the way. And I have footage to prove it. But often the people who take themselves incredibly serious, seriously, are the funniest. And history is, you know, the great figures of history invariably take themselves very, very seriously. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you have your obsessions. You are obsessed with facial hair. And you will. Is that unusual? Who is? No. And what I love is you'll talk about, again, I'll go back to the World War I example. But this goes throughout your entire podcast, any subject you take up, if someone has absurd facial hair, you'll get mentioned. You start cackling. And most of the generals you introduce, Russian, British, French, anyone from Austria, Austria, Hungary, you are, you know, Serbia, Croatia, you're saying, oh, my God, in this next one, an insane, this beard is greater than the previous beard.

I mean, now you mention it. I'm thinking, actually, the Americans, they have very poor mustache action in this, don't they? Obviously, we've got a bit of a wait for the Americans to arrive, late for a world war. They peaked too early, though. No, the Civil War, they've got that. Civil War, we've got great beards. Civil War, we had great beards. And, I mean, I'm not going to sit here and listen to you, run our beards down. No, we are huge admirers of 19th century Civil War.

We love to. I mean, insane, our Secretary of War, Stanton had an insane beard. Several men were living in it. Your current, your current secretary estate for war, which I gather is now what it's called. Yes. He's banning facial hair. Yes, yes. Does he not know his history?

Pete Hegseth said, I won't have, there'll be no beards, there'll be no individuation. There'll be no, and he said, we won't have any hippies, cut your hair, shave your beard. And we know he's a true patriot because he wears an American flag tie, which is what every true patriot does. Yeah, of course. And he went after anyone wearing beards. And I had the same thought, which is, excuse me, some of our greatest generals had incredible beards back in the day. And they did not affect their fighting ability at all.

And if you're Custer, very long hair. Yes. Long golden locks. They were thinning, though, weren't they? Yes. Scalp. Actually, what went wrong. Yes.

He was trying to compensate for his loss of virility. Yes. And he shamed himself. Because Custer was losing his hair, he felt, I need to attack this village that's a hundred times larger than my fighting. But also, I mean, imagine the surprise of the brave who scalped him. Disappointment. Huge. Disappointment.

They called him. Oh, look, I got. They called him. They called him long hair. They called him long hair. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. He's losing it.

He looks like Larry David. Yeah. Um, yeah, he had, Larry David should play Custer in that final battle. When 100,000 hostile native. come over the hill, he should frown and you hear, wom, wum, wum, wum, no, no, no, no, no. Because he loves the Civil War, doesn't he? Yeah, he does.

There's the famous photo of him with his daughter. Yes, looking in Gettysburg. I'll be listening to you, and we're on Custer now, so this is a good example. I'm listening to your long, multi-episodes about the, you know, who is this Custer, what's happening, how did this whole thing come about, how do we get to this battle, the pre-story and beautifully told and then you're talking about

one of the people who's fighting alongside Custer underneath him, Bentine. And you two you despise Bentine. No, Benetting's a great man. I thought you hated Benetian. No, he's very like Dominic.

Oh, well, I hated him so by extension, I hate you. So opinions on that may differ. I was just sad, I now hate Dominic because I'm not a fan of Benetine. What is it? What was it? Well, I obviously respect and, you know, I was beneath the line was, I read it out on the podcast, the line from the book. It said, beneath his chubby, cheeked cordiality,

lurked cold and sinister intelligence. That's you. Yeah. And I read that answer Tom and Tom said that's like you. And then I was so offended by that. I read it to my wife and she said, you're literally describing yourself. Right. So of the villain, one of the villains, or as history has often miscast him. Oh, he's not a villain. He's a great man. please. I'm saying as, as history has miscast him, he's often been seen as the villain of the battle of, but you say, no, this makes terrific. I like the cut of his job. I do like the cuts of his jib. So initially he lets himself down a bit, doesn't he, by being difficult and not helping Custer. But then at the end, when they're trapped on the hill with Major Reno.

Major Reno, who's in a massive funk. Who's sobbing and like has to be trussed up like a hog. Like a hog. You know, I will say, I had sympathy for Reno. And if anyone's, lost at this point. We're talking about the Battle of Little Big Horn. Everybody's lost. And please, this is my podcast, and these are the only two people left in the world that I really

want to talk to. And I'm taking this ship down right now. But one of the reasons I sympathize with Reno is I think if I'm ever in a difficult situation, a life and death situation, I will lose my nerve and I will have to be trussed up like a hog by my friends. To keep myself from hurting myself.

Yeah, this is what you described, you compared Reno to yourself. Do you remember? Yeah, I said I would run away. Yeah. You said, you compared him to yourself our live shows. Yeah. So, Tom has to be trussed up like a hog before our live shows because he's gibbering with nerves. Whereas I, having behaved poorly all day.

Yes. But cool, calculating intelligence kicks in. Yes, yes, yes. This is, I mean, so first of all, I think I'm more in the Tom camp. Right. I will be gibbering. Right. It's a word I love.

Were you gibbering before your shows, before your talk shows? I jibber all day long. I don't think you understand. You're gibbering during them. I speak in tongues. I have whatever Irish disease we have where we speak mostly in Babel. Okay. That's me all day long.

And then they occasionally record it and we seem to be able to sell ads. That's what's happened. Yeah. I love the podcast. I'm going to say my only problem is occasionally you two. And I understand why you're doing it. You're very proudly British. You will throw out the name of some minor member of parliament.

in the late 80s or early 90s and you'll both start cackling about Cecil Biddlebarter and you'll be giggling and I will be driving my car and I will turn it into the nearest tree killing myself. I've been reincarnated many times.

Just rage that you two are having so much fun about Cecil Biedel barter and I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So he will have very thick glasses. He'll have a kind of silvery hair and he'll have dandruff. Massive dandruff. He'll have a pinstripe suit.

He'll look an utterly unmemorable figure, but he will have been insanely brave during the Second World War and taken out three German tanks. And taking the MC. And then it's a contrast between them. And then it'll be caught in a flat. Wearing stocking. With a black bin liner and an orange in his mouth or something like that.

Okay, I have to ask how you two met because the chemistry between the two of you is perfection, and that's a big magic of the show. And I'm curious, how did these two guys come into each other's orbit? We were thinking of lying about this. Yeah, so actually on the way in, Tabayat producers said you need to make up a new origin story because it's not very good. I'm happy with a lie if it's a good one. No, it's not a good one.

We haven't had time to think of one because we're not very imaginative. Do you want me to think of one for you? Well, you're in combat together in the grenade. You're in Grenada, I'm guessing, right? Grenada. And like, when the Americans invaded. Yeah.

No, we're kicking the, we're fighting the Americans. Yeah, on behalf of the Commonwealth. On behalf of the Commonwealth. Okay. Because the, you disgrace yourself invading Grenada. You let yourselves down invading Grenada. How did we let ourselves down? Because it's a British colony.

Yes, British colony. You needed a little help. But this is good. Anyway, we didn't meet him for that. I'm sick of, I mean, we've helped you out a few times, I believe. Late. Right. We, hey, we show up late.

Yes. We showed up late in World War I. We showed up late in World War II. And, but that's the way we are. We like to show up late. And I like to arrive late at a party because people notice me more. It's my ego. And I think that's what Americans love to do historically is show up when the tide has

almost turned. It's almost too late. And then we supply you with tons of mediocre equipment, but lots of it. Yeah. Of course, the trouble of the World War I is we were both on the wrong side. So we should have joined with the Germans. To have a crack at the French. You smash the French once and for all.

Now, let's talk about this, Dominic. You are so through and through a British citizen. You loathe the French, and you're always going after them on the podcast. Yeah. I actually lived in France. I speak French. Listen, I'm very impressed with, I love that you took the time to learn the language of a people you despise. You could be passive-aggressive to them in their own tongue.

Do you ever, did you grow up? Is this just you playing a part or is there real animosity there towards the French? I think probably initially playing a part, but it's entered, I've forgotten who I am and it's entered. The mask, the mask has blended into your flesh. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think so. Beautiful. You like the French, though, don't.

I do like the French. You don't have any, when, that whole period when Napoleon's trying to destroy the English islands, you're okay with that? I like them because I think they're the coolest of enemies. They are a very, very classy enemy to have. And I think because we always beat them, that redounds to our credit. So, I mean, I wouldn't in any way underestimate the French. I mean, for most of England's history and indeed Britain's history, they were much richer, much more powerful, much more sophisticated. and so the pleasure of thrashing them

becomes all the sweeter. They do have those desserts. Those desserts are fantastic. Yes. And I mean, show me, you have some great, I mean, your desserts are fiends. No, you have. The friends don't do a pudding though, do they.

They don't do a pudding. Yeah, but I don't think they want to do a pudding. They do a tart. They're letting you have the pudding. Because, quite, frankly, no one really wants a pudding. No, no, you're wrong about that. I love a pudding. Yeah, you've got to have a pudding.

Okay. I don't have to have a pudding. And you may think, this is a cul-de-sac we've gone down. This is a dead end. I say, I'm going to go hard on this pudding thing. I think you guys have disgraced yourself with your puddings. Okay.

And there we go. This is punchy stuff. I mean, the French, of course, would agree with you. Yes. That's the one. I jump in with the French on that one. You guys, you have your obsessions, and I love that. And you also have your heroes.

Dominic, I know, for you, it might be Admiral Lourner. Nelson. Is he your all-time favorite? Who's your all-time favorite? Because I want to get from both of you. I think for both of us, Nelson. Nelson. Yeah. I have a, do you know, I have a torn dress, he's a French word, for Richard Nixon. I like Richard Nixon. Yeah. I find him very entertaining. He's fascinating. Well, my show here in the States began in September of 1993, and a reporter asked me, who would your favorite comedy guest be? Right. And I said Richard Nixon, because Richard Nixon was still alive. He was the face of comedy for about a good 12 years in our country.

All comedy, comedians were obsessed with him. He was a very fun guy to have sport with. And, I mean, he obsessed every comedy writer for, you know, a huge chunk of modern American history. So I wanted to talk to Richard Nixon. And then he passed away. I believe I started in September. I think he died in maybe March. and I thought there goes my chance

Do you know what AI they can bring back some kind of Nixon avatar sweating aggressively at you Yeah So we Nixon does appear on this podcast Many times I morph into Nixon

Even when he's not appropriate And it's a very cartoonish over the top We went to Disneyland And they've got an animatronic version They've got a Lincoln And Disney So I'd have thought that Nixon would be An animatronic Nixon would be next on the list

Like kind of walking Nixon himself was an animatronic. Yeah. There may not have ever been. I mean, we love him as well. We're very keen on inappropriate footwear, people wearing the wrong shoes at the wrong time. And Nixon was brilliant at that because he, what was it? He wore black shoes on the beach.

Yeah, black shoes on the beach, yeah. And we like that in a president. I, okay, it's a little tidbit, and I'm going to brag here for a moment. One of Nixon's biographers who knew him is a woman named Monica Crowley, who's written a lot about Nixon in winter late in his career. She told me that Nixon at the very end of his life was flipping around. He was interested in television. He liked to watch television.

And I premiere and he watched our first episode. And then she said that he liked it and told her, I like it. It's madcap. Say me. It's madcap. And I thought, I love that Nixon now. I want Monica Crowley to write that down so that it's part of the official record. But she told me that he watched it probably with his shoes on over his pajamas

and watched it at 12.30 at night here in America and said, I like it. It's madcap. Yeah, but he would say it without smiling, wouldn't he? No, he would. There'd be no flicker of amusement on his face. So basically, you had six months where you could have leveraged that. Yeah. I think, yeah, well, first of all, very quickly, critics turned on me and Nixon's advisors probably would have said, well, no, his advisors were famously terrible. They would have said you double down, double down.

You should, you should break into the DNC for no reason at all and pay the burglars out of your own pocket and you should immediately go on Conan O'Brien's late-night show. So Admiral Lord Nelson for both of you. Yeah, I think so. You've got to throw in somebody ancient there, Tom, think? No, because people in antiquity are terrifying and terrible. I mean, they're astonishing.

I think almost without exception, yes. Well, I think back then, your average person was grabbing someone who walked by their house and thrusting them over a large sharpened stick, you know, and impaling them. There's quite a lot of that going on. Yeah. I think that they, the further back in time you go, the harder it is to relate to people because they are so different. And I think of someone like Alexander or Julius Caesar.

They are terrifying because they move to kind of moral rhythms that are very, very strange and remote to us. So I can't kind of love any of them or admire them. So I think it has to be kind of more recent because then you can understand them. Well, my all-time favorite is Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln, because he's the one figure that is more impressive the more I learn about him. the more I think he's I think he might be one of our greatest authors also one of our greatest humanitarians and an incredible statesman and funny and what's your take on his wife yeah because we had a disagreement about this we got into trouble I got into trouble saying she was a monster I don't think

that's right I was I think that's too simple I think it's too simple to say she's a monster I think she was unwell listen and learn I'm literally never coming on this Well, you weren't coming again anyway You said that before we even started I'll do this once My people tell me I have to do it Right, exactly I didn't realize you were listening to that conversation

Let's hear about why Mary Lincoln is not a monster She is She is crucial I think to Lincoln's rise She comes from a connected family She's very ambitious on his behalf My wife, who's also a massive fan of both you gentlemen, massive fan and regular listener, she did a great podcast called Significant Others,

and she talked about Mary Lincoln and Abraham Lincoln and talked about the complexities of what's good about Mary Lincoln. But her podcast and the research was that she did a lot for him. She was very ambitious on his behalf. In some ways, she was a good partner. She was highly flawed, but I think to dismiss her as a monster isn't fair. Did she not, though, steal all the spoons in the White House when she left? Who hasn't done that? I've never done that.

I've been to the White House three times. Did you steal the spoons? I stole a flat screen television. I mean, I just spoons. I don't need a fucking spoon. Who needs a spoon? If you're going to go, go big, I said. Yeah.

So, yeah, I... Yeah, but she stole something like 6,000 spoons or whatever. Oh, come on. Honestly. And nothing, you know. What did Mark? Margaret Thatcher take when she left power. I do have a question.

I do have a question. This is a serious question that has confused me somewhat over time. I sometimes have a take on a British figure that's completely out of step with what British people think of that figure. So like who? Well, Margaret Thatcher's one, because I feel that you almost can't, I've been in circles where you almost can't bring her up. Oh, yeah.

And she has been canceled. And I've seen books of great women in history, and Margaret Thatcher isn't even in there. And she's this highly significant person. And I understand that there's complexities there, and there are things that she did. But interesting to me that she isn't held in more esteem. Dominic has written a 7,000-page book on her. Yeah. I didn't know that.

It's absolutely the man to take this on. Do you think, am I correct that I've been around Brits and I've said, what do you guys prefer, Brits? Lymies. What do you like? Englishmen. Yeah, Englishmen. Officers and gentlemen. Okay.

Admiral. That kind of thing. Lord Commander. Just Sir is fine. Yeah, okay, sir. Your Highness's, I have noticed that you have to. have her as part of the conversation and it's as if she didn't exist and I that doesn't feel right to me. Am I correct about that? I think kind of liberal opinion for once of a better word

or a phrase still holds her in very low regard because she was a, you know, she was a right of center politician. A lot of people suffered under and the Thatcher government because of deindustrialization. Yes. She was a very, very strident and partisan politician. You know, you were, she were one of hers or you were one of the opposition and she drew the battle lines very clearly. So it's understandable where people hate her, right? I completely get that. I mean, I'm sure

Tom would probably agree with me on this. She's an incredibly impressive person. So if you look at photographs of her government, she's often in the room with 40 men and she's the only woman. And she's made her own way. She's forced her way up the ladder. She's incredibly well prepared because she thinks she has

to work hard than any man because she thinks she'll be dismissed at any moment. So that, she feels she has to become harder than hard to prove that she's not a soft and sensitive woman, all of which maybe makes her quite unlikable. I think she probably wouldn't have got on with us because she had very little sense of humour. And she was hard, you know, hard company, difficult company. But she is a, I mean, certainly compare with Britain's recent prime ministers. So that, I think that there's a kind of kaleidoscopic quality to people's reputations in history. And I think the fact that, how long was she, 10 years? She was prime minister for 10 years.

And basically, you know, we, current Prime Minister has lasted about a week. Yeah. They're like fruit flies. They have the same life expects. Same and same intellect. They're so terrible. But they're nourished on the blood of others. They are so terrible that I think her reputation can only improve by comparison.

Yeah. I mean, the comparison between her and Liz Truss, Kirstama, I mean, she's not. I mean, names that no one listening will ever, they've heard of any of them. Yeah. Yeah. They just enter the front of Downing Street and they go out of the back without breaking stride. I'm also a big churchophile. I really love Churchill. And I know that I've talked to British people who, oh, well, you know, he behaved poorly here. He behaved poorly there. There's a lot of it that maybe doesn't

age well. And sometimes I am impatient. And I think, oh, my God, you know, this is the perfect person at the perfect time with the perfect wit and the perfect eloquence. That alone should protect him. Am I wrong? He got one massive thing right. And I think essentially that cancels everything he got wrong. Yes. Yeah. Also, I mean, you've got to give a massive credit.

I mean, you say one massive thing right just for anyone who's, you know, he at the people were trying to appease Hitler, appease Hitler, appease Hitler, and he said enough of this. So he's right about that. But I think specifically, it's the moment when the Nazis are. On the French coast, there's a serious prospect that the British government may open negotiations with Hitler. Yep. And had that happened, then the history of Europe and of the world would have been radically different. But it doesn't happen is massively down to Churchill.

Because of one man who said no. Right. I mean, it's amazing. It's a pinch point. It's an amazing story about him addressing his MPs and saying to them, if this Long Island story of ours is to end, let it end only when we are choking in our own blood on the ground. Yeah.

And that kind of stirring stuff. I mean, nobody says that outside movies. He says that. He galvanizes the English language, the English people, the British people. I have a theory that, again, I'm just going to go with Brits, because I don't know what to say, that the British people are famously afraid of, or wary of puffed up language. Or, you know, I know it's certainly true.

true of the Celts, the minute someone starts to say, we, everyone is going, oh, get over yourself, that all the rhetoric I love of Churchill's sometimes is slightly embarrassing. Well, the thing is, he speaks like that from about the age of four. Yeah. And it makes him a very, a very comical figure. So what is it? The age of 10. Yeah, I know.

He's at school. I love him at four saying, anyone who will not give that toy and put it back in my pram will choke on their own blood. But the thing is, he's, I mean, he, at the age of 10 or something, when he's at school, he's writing essays about how he is going to save Britain from foreign invasion. And he, in a sense, you know, his whole life has been in preparation for 1940 when he, when he, he stands alone. He got loads wrong. He made loads of terrible, terrible mistakes. And some of his, you know, more intemperate statements don't stand up very well today to ask scrutiny. But when you look at his life, he had an amazing life. Oh, my God. He is zealig.

I mean, the Woody Allen movie. where he's in every... He's in South Africa and he escapes from a Burr Prisoner War Camp. He's in Cuba when the Americans are fighting in Cuba. He's fighting in India. He's hit by a cab in New York City in the 1930s. He's crazy... He's everywhere.

This extraordinary life. Plus, he is such a likable personality. He's so abilient. He's such fun. He's a great laugh. If he was sitting next to you at dinner, you wouldn't get a word in Edgeways. Oh, I would. But he'd be...

You know who you're messing with. Hey, Winston! Who let this Irish idiot in here? I, when I visited, I have my frequent stops when I'm in London. Imperial War Museum, I always have to go. I witnessed an argument. This is in the late 80s. I was at the Imperial War Museum, and I witnessed there was a British half-track there.

And two old German men were saying, this was not the best design and two British guys said well good enough wasn't it and they got into it and I thought what was the accent that that British person had

I say old chap Dick Van Dyke taught me how to talk to you guys Blimey! Hello governor I did that to Hugh Lurrie's face once and I think he struck me but it's all a blur now we have an episode on Mary Poppins

coming up Oh really? Yeah we do terrific well Apologies Dick Van Tate He was taught his, um, cockerly accent by an Irishman who'd been appointed by Walt Disney. It was the ultimate act of the IRA. Yeah. It's the savage.

He explains a lot. Yeah. Yeah. He has apologized many times. I had him on the show and I asked him about that. And he said, I'm sorry. That's what I was taught. It's terrible. He was. But it was cool. To his credit, he's, he's Dick Van Dyke. He's a national treasure for us. And, uh, and he apologized. Um, but, uh, what we talked about. talking about. I've drifted. Joe. Imperial War Museum. Oh, yes. And then Chartwell. I went to Chartwell, which I...

That is great. And I just looking at the Chartwell's the country estate that Churchill bought when he didn't have the money to buy it and he was making, I mean, to his credit, earning his living, writing articles and probably spending money he didn't have, but he bought Chartwell. And there are a few homes that tell you who the person is. Most of them have been redone. The person isn't really there. My two favorites are Chartwell and Teddy Roosevelt's house at Sagamore Hill and Oyster Bay.

You never mean that. Oh, you have to go because Teddy Roosevelt's there. They didn't touch it. His wife kept it exactly the same. When she passed, it became a museum. Nothing's been changed. It's filled with stuffed heads and bombast and hyperactivity. They're quite similar, I think.

Yeah, they are. They're very similar. You know who T.R.'s hero was? Well, Kipling, who? Oliver Cromwell. Oh, that's Oliver Cromwell, yes. His hero. One of my heroes, actually, Conan, sorry.

Not so much of the British. I mean, it was, I once, my grandmother lived with us growing up, and she was, she had been born in 1890, and the movie Cromwell was on in her room. She was a room on the second floor. Richard Harris film, Richard Harris. And I'm crossing her room, and the door is slightly ajar, and just the flickering image she's watching it

and it's a scene where the British are under Cromwell or something's going on I can't remember but it was something about the Irish and my grandmother's watching and she just said the bastards well you know we we grew up on these children's books

called Lady Bird books and they were books about great lives so there was Oliver Cromwell was one of them and it has kind of famous summing up and it says Oliver Cromwell, brackets, except in Ireland, was a kindly man. Colonel O'Brien, except for two his staff and friends, was a kindly man. Yeah, which I think sums up perhaps.

What was that saying in Cromwell? He was robust in Ireland. Yeah. He was robust. Robust is a very useful word on the podcast. He had sometimes pungent views. Puntent and robust. They carry a lot of weight.

You know, the larger to Google Earth, out of this all, these little areas for second. One of the things that sustains me, and I know that you have a lot of young listeners, which I love, because the role that history plays for me in my life, my knowledge of history and my enthusiasm for it, is it often reminds me that we've been here before, and that the history of mankind is a lot of things constantly going wrong.

and, you know, good people in the mix trying to write the ship. But I get a lot of satisfaction out of all the things that are happening today that are so, can seem so dire. And, of course, unlike anyone that you're talking about in your podcast, we're being bombarded with bad news constantly through this new technology. A lot of young people just think, well, this is the end of the world. and I try and remind them. Things have been worse.

Oh, no, but I keep telling them, do you think 1914 was great? How about 1861 in the States? I mean, even in our recent history, the 60s was a dreadful decade, 70s, 80s. I mean, it's hard to locate a time when we all didn't think. When I was at university, as you call it, when I was in college, we all thought Reagan is going to blow up the world. Yeah, yeah. And this is the end. Late for the first two world wars.

Yeah. Early for the third. Yeah, exactly. Well, well, there we go. Oh, there goes Moscow. There goes, well. But I mean, and I'm just constantly reminded that we have, we had a moment of optimism when the Berlin Wall fell, which quickly turned to cynicism. And then things seem to have just gotten much worse in Russia.

And we see what's happening in the world. And I think, well, this is the way it's been. It's always been this way. So I would say a couple of things. One is that people always behave badly. history keeps happening and people will continue doing bad things because human nature doesn't change. And yet, most people alive today live longer, healthier, you know, more comfortable, warmer as in shielded from cold, lives with more opportunities, more, you know, the broader

cultural horizons, all of that kind of thing. That's not to be complacent, but you know, you'd rather be here than at any previous point in history. And the other thing is dentistry, which is always mentioned. And antibiotics. My father was a microbiologist and studied antibiotics his entire life. Never went to the dentist, though. A face of just broken tombstones in his mouth. Oh, British. Like George Washington. Like George Washington. He walked around with other people's teeth in his mouth. That's right. Poor from Washington. That's right. We knew he was a bad man, but that was the confirms it. Had to eat, you know, he ate because of his bad, bad teeth. Can I tell you? Go on. He would have tripe. Tripe was all he would, which is cows. Really going down.

cow's stomach mashed up and then boiled and this man who might be the greatest American of all time through his rotted jar would suck tripe into his mouth that makes me feel so happy you know the worst teeth won't you forgive us no rameses the great the pharaoh um they found his uh his mummy and he'd lived to about 97 and they inspected his jaw and because the sand you know it's Egypt. So San gets into the bread. 90-odd years of chewing on bread had worn down the teeth, had worn down the gums, had exposed the nerves.

He was Pharaoh. He was, you know, one of the greatest figures of ancient history. His, I mean, every minute would have been excruciating agony. There was nothing that he could do about that. So, I, you know, just say that to cheer people up who may be depressed at doom scrolling. Yeah, exactly. If you're depressed about what's happening right now

and global warming, remember there's not sand in your bread. Yeah, exactly. You know, and there's been, the world has been convulsed by terrible examples of climate change before. Yeah. So the 6th century AD,

possibly the worst year in human history. There's a kind of great climactic event. The world cools, the crops fail, there's plague, there's war, everything collapses. And I again, offer that as a reassurance that things may seem bad now, but honestly, they have been so much worse. Yeah. And I think I go back to that all the time, is there's also a, this is not just a uniquely American thing, but it's very popular in our politics to can't we return to that golden old time? And as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, not a historian like you gentlemen, as an amateur, I always say, tell me when that was.

Right. It's ever existed. What is, what is this golden time? And, you know, they'll try and say things like, well, you know, in the 1890s, you know, the thing that's always recreated when someone opens an ice cream shop and people have arm garters and wax moustaches and people want. And I think, no, that was no good. Linching. Yeah. No, no.

I mean, exactly. It's, it's, it's, uh, there is no golden past. And I think that's one of the things that sustains me, uh, these days is I listen to your podcast and you tell these great stories. and I love the stories and I learn so much but it informs how I live today. It informs how I read the news. It informs how I take what's coming

and I'm usually a little, I think, calmer and I work with a lot of young people who are convinced. I remember during COVID, someone who was waiting on me in a restaurant telling me she was very young, she was about 20 and she said she's very sad. And I said, why?

And she said, I'll never see a concert again. Oh, my gosh. I'll never see a live concert again because that's over now because of COVID. And I said, no, no, no. We were here in 1919. We've been here a bunch of times before. These happen and they go away. And we move on.

You're going to see so many concerts and so many of them are going to be terrible. You'll be dreaming of lockdown. Yeah, yeah. I have to ask you, I have not listened to your Rolling Stone podcasts, your Satanic Majesty's podcast. Beatles or Stones, I just have to ask. For me, Beatles 100%. Yes. Stones.

Okay. Well, I have to tell you, Dominic, you're wrong. You're wrong. Wrong about... Yeah, Mary Lincoln. Mary Lincoln. And wrong about the Stones. Look, I love them.

An amazing three-cord band, but... You're not a bit bored of the Beatles. No. A bit ubiquitous. It's impossible. And look, is it their fault that their stuff is... You're penalizing them for their popularity. Being too good.

Incredible. Well, wrong again. And I should tell you, Mary Lincoln. played with the stones for a while. So you should really hit the stones. She was on a Peter Paul and Mary, right? Yeah, she was with Peter Paul and Mary, yes. Then she left, replaced Bill Wyman for a little while as a bass player.

And then Mick got jealous. She was getting all the attention. Yeah, that was, I have to ask you on a personal note, this thing is blown up. You started as a lark. You were having fun. And now it's all this. Yeah, mental. Are you enjoying, I mean, Tom Hanks is a huge fan.

We'll come on the podcast. I've not been invited. Listen, I understand my place in the hierarchy. I have a small cameo in saving private Ryan. I'm shot. I'm the ninth guy to be shot just coming right off the boat. What would you talk about? We'd pick a topic.

You could pick a topic with me, and I would come to London. Where do you do it? Do you do it in London? No, no, no. I want to be there in person. Are you together when you do them? No. We hate each other. No, God, I mean, that would be terrible.

Yeah. No, never. This is the first time we've been together for about four years. Okay. It's very unpleasant. Well, I'd like to be with one of you live. So I would like to be at one of your, I'm imagining a grand estate. And I would like to be with one of you in person.

And I would like to make the other jealous. Maybe we could talk about why Mary Lincoln was a goodie or why the Beatles are brilliant. I could do the Beatles in a second. Let's do it. Let's do it. I mean, I mean, I would happily join you guys any time. uh this has been a thrill for me and i got to talk about about 170th of the things that i would love to talk to you about um but so so it goes we'll leave that for another time if you're not

listening to the rest is history uh with tom and dominic uh you're a fool uh and and you don't and you know what you don't even have to be a history buff they're stories and they're the best stories that ever were, and they're told by two great storytellers. And so the rest is history. Please give it a listen. And thank you two both very much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely joy. Thank you. Is it important? It's very important. If you'd even question me is, it's abhorrent to me.

Recently, we had a discussion about singing popular songs on the podcast. Is that a copyright infringement? Do we have to then pay off these artists? Or are we allowed to sing a popular ditty? Do we have the freedom to do that? And we realize there's one person we need to talk to. Yep. He is one of the loyal troops here in the Team Coco army.

He's a magnificent lawyer, despite never having practice law or graduated from law school. He's the Joseo Royal of lawyers. But no one pretends to be a lawyer better than David Melmed. And David, thank you very much for being here. And I also want to say, people really like David Melman. Yeah. I mean, everyone is very nice. to say.

Yeah, I am... We're all big fans. Thank you. You know, I'm a controversial figure here in the building, but you are universally very well liked. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate that. And so, and I thank you, you do terrific work for us in your capacity as a fake lawyer.

So, David, let's get into it. The question is, can I sing songs on the podcast? Can Sona sing songs in the podcast? And Matt Gourley, is he allowed to break out into a two? every now and then. What's the answer? I'm going to give you a lawyer answer to that. Okay.

The answer is maybe. The answer is maybe. Maybe. You're rotating in your chair a lot nervously. Yes, I am. I don't really want to know. Exactly. I got it and gross.

We could actually use that as an example right there. Okay. That's a perfect example. This is timely, too. Which song was that? Because the way you were seeing it was just awful. What song was it? That's a always a song.

Live forever. Oh, okay. Got it. Terrific. So that's a perfect. example right there. Thank you. Okay. I think there's a, there's a way to approach these. I think music, uh, is probably one of the most controversial sort of topics in all of clearance, right? I think music, particularly with you, Conan, your love of music and, um, sort of the, the idea of

music now in podcast has become a hot, certainly topic within, um, the legal community. And so now that We have an example. I think the first thing... If you don't get more interesting, faster, I'm going to kill you. Okay. It's that interesting. I mean, it's that simple.

You have to... Look at all these notes. I love it. I mean, look at the... You're not... You're not talking to the Supreme Court. Yes, I am. It's just us.

Yes, I am. He is the most professional person in this room right now. I know, but that was just dreadful. I know. What? He'd let the man talk. I think... I did.

Yes. And it was awful. Yes. It was the worst. thing it ever happened to me. I'm sorry, David, continue. And in no way, in no way, in no way, in no way, feel constrained by what I've said or intimidated. As your employer continued doing that awful thing you were just doing, continue. Exactly. This is. Okay. So, there's a, there's a step approach to that. I think the first thing we ask is, what is the

intended use of what you are trying to do. And I think why I ask that is a lot of times I hear samples and they're really terrible. I think the, when I actually asked the, when I actually asked the person, what do you want to use it for? They hear themselves say it and say, you know what, we're good. We're actually not going to use that. Once we get to step two, say, you know what, we want to do that. Then we get to where do you want to use it? Where do you want to distribute it? And so in that case, just I'm putting you on the spot, Corley. Where would you want to use that within the podcast? Well, I think we're talking about this podcast. Okay. So right now. This is the, I think what we're all talking about is the same thing, which is, okay, we're having

that podcast. And we're talking. And someone brings up Robert Palmer and son says, wait, what Which one is he? Because she's younger. And I go, murderous where I'm addicted to, he's so fine. There's no telling where the money went. And what do you do now? It comes across your desk.

Yes, it does. I don't think you have a desk. I don't merit one yet. But you do not. I sit in the corner. You do sit in the corner. Well, when you get a real law degree, you'll get a real desk. Thank you.

But David, that's the example. That's a great example. They come to you and they say, Conan O'Brien, joined in by Matt Goreley. Robert Palmer's song, we just did it. Do you cut it out or do you let us do it? I say, again, maybe. I would say, let's try to get permission to do that. I think that is the goal here is to say, do we need permission to do that? So that, again, is a difficult thing because you can say, look, we need to release this episode next week. How are we supposed to go to the record label? Yeah, Robert Palmer's gone. He has tragically passed. Yes, he has. And he has an estate that's very

protective of his musical work. And then does someone get them a sample of us singing it and they listen to it? We actually would provide the sample because you're recording this, right? We're recording this and we bring it to that. This is awful. Okay, well... Again, I mean, this whole segment is a trinity. I think it's fantastic,

actually. I think this is very helpful. I think this is fantastic. So we bring that sample to the record label. Say, hey, look, Conan O'Brien, Matt Gourley, Sona would love to use this sample on... I'm okay. You could leave me out of it. Okay. She is toned death.

Yeah, you don't have to love me in on the Robert Palmer one. Yes. Now, here's my question. Would you say this promotes Robert Palmer's discography? Or disparages his entire thing? No, it doesn't. It makes you think, oh, I did love that song. I don't love the way they're doing it, but I do love that song.

And I'd like to go out and immediately on Spotify get the complete Robert Palmer collection. You would certainly use that argument in a negotiation for, fee. This is ridiculous. I'm just, you know, the thing is, I'm not a musician who's playing the song. I'm just saying, she's so fine. There's no telling where the money went. And then suddenly a highly paid pseudo-lawyer who's suspiciously tan all the time.

I don't know how you are in the middle of winter and you've got the deepest bronze tan. Do you use a tanning light? I do not. And you ask me that. He's a handsome guy. You are incredibly handsome. Thank you. Well, you asked me that two years ago.

Yeah, I know. You did. Guess what? It's the last time we spoke. That is true. Until today. Yeah. Conan, you came to my corner.

Yep. And you said, do you tan? Do you tan? I would love that tan. Yeah. And I said, I don't. I actually get, I get outside. I have a, you know, glowing.

You have an incredible glow. Thank you. What do you attribute that to? Is it your lineage? Are you pregnant? How is this pertinent? To this, we're getting to it in a second. This is important.

Go ahead. What was your question? Sorry. So, yes. But David, explain this golden hue you have. I think genetics. I think my, I have parents in their 80s that look like they're in their 60s. So that's the first.

But what is it, what is your genetic makeup? I know that's probably an incorrect question to ask these days. Where are your genetics? I'm less, no. I would say there is probably a sort of Middle Eastern, you know, beautiful skin, olive. Absolutely gorgeous. But you're forgetting these beautiful eyes, too. Also, can I say something else?

He has a, you have salt and pepper hair, which is to die for. I mean, I'm walking around with this clown dessert on my head. And I look at you, and I'm like, he may not be a real lawyer. He may be the only thing we could afford. Yes. But got to do him in a Mississippi second. What? Koi is your lawyer.

He is your lawyer. Yeah. Okay. All I'm saying is you can't ask about genetics and you can't say I want to do you to the lawyer. Well, listen. Actually, out of time. I'm glad we covered all the legal questions to the music. I'm just going to say one thing.

He's so fine. There's no telling when I'm on it went. Listen, so back to the other, the initial point of this whole thing. Yes. Which is you're very good looking. Wait, that wasn't it. Back to the real point, David, which is you're saying that any time we hum any ditty, you have to get on the phone and try to buy the rights from some monsters?

Can I add, last Conan, you argued that if you hummed, the worse you hummed it, the more rights we would have. Like if you were off with the melody or the tone, then we would be able to use it. I would say, for example, famously litigious. Led Zeppelin. No one gets to do Led Zeppelin stuff. But if I sing it and it's wrong, but everyone knows what I'm doing, do we still have to pay?

You could. You could. You'd have to get the lyrics and the melody wrong, though, right? Oh, I could do the whole thing. Now, there's a lady who knows? Sure. That's it.

Those speakers are bows. Oh, boy. And she's trying. Staircase. to Nerva. Nirvana. Now, would I have to pay for that? No way.

Well, I wouldn't say no way. Why? You'd say maybe. I would say maybe. And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. If you were in, if you were led, no, I'll tell you why. You'll ask the questions that you don't want to hear the answer.

I don't think you want to hear what the answer. Go ahead. In the most conservative way, yes. Now, there are different exceptions. For example, I think the use, the fair use word, de minimis use is used a ton. But you've already committed the copyright act, right? So when I have talked to you, Sona, about this plenty of times where, and I think I'm going to use Jeff Ross's name. He loves the word de minimis.

It's just a little bit of use that a court would never say, you know, we're not going to litigate this. Go ahead and use it. Conan O'Brien, he can do two, three seconds of that song. We're not going to even go there. Diminimus. Why does Jeff love Diminimus? I haven't heard Diminimus since the Latin teacher saw me without my pants on. That's what he said.

That's what he said. That's exactly what Jeff said. Pretty good, huh? Look at it. Look at her. Look at her. That is what he said. It's not the Maximus. A quick question. Should we do a two-parter and continue to talk?

Yes, we should do a two-parter. Because we're out of time. Okay, we are sitting here with our, he says he's a lawyer. We've seen no paperwork. David Melmid, impossibly good-looking and beloved here on staff. Very sweet. Thank you. Stay tuned for part two. Conan O'Brien needs a friend.

With Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian and Matt Goorley. Produced by me, Matt Goorley. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leow. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair,

and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnik. Talent booking by Paula Davis. Gina Batista and Brick Con. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan?

Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com slash Conan. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien needs a friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. Thank you.