Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Tracee Ellis Ross

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

Actress, producer, and entrepreneur Tracee Ellis Ross feels really strange, excited, a little squirrelly about being Conan O’Brien’s friend. Tracee sits down with Conan to talk about getting the wiggles out, the characters that have developed out of her love of fashion, exploring questions of identity and race with Black-ish, and more. Plus, producer Matt Gourley shares the origin of his H. R. Giger obsession.  Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone].For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.

Hi, my name is Tracy Ellis Ross, and I feel really strange, excited, a little squirrelly about being Conan O'Brien's friend. Squirrelly? Like, I don't know if I want to be his friend, I don't want to really see him. No, it's more like nervousness, like, I don't know, like, what's this going to turn out like? Like, how's this going to be? You know what I mean?

Like, my stomach's like a whole squirreling. Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brandy shoes, walk in the looze, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends. I can tell that we are going to be friends. One, two, three, go. Hello there, and welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. This is a crisp, professional opening of the show. I've been criticized.

Always is. Well, I was criticized last week and I got in my head because you guys were saying that I overthink the opening, I take a long pause, so today I just jumped in. It's been one minute. Well, I think so far, have I addressed the note, Matt, do you think? Yeah, I actually think this energy you're coming in with right now is right in the sweet spot. Let's ride it.

Okay, well, I'm going to keep going with this crisp and officious tone. The Dow Industrial Average has plunged. We are seeing a cold front moving across the Midwest, rather late in the year for that, but we think it's because of a high pressure zone in the Arctic region, just drying cooler air north. And it's not what this is. And still, of course, we see as the planets revolve and their majestic dances, the orbits, we call it.

The Jiru, yeah, so you're saying that I'm projecting big history originated here. Yeah, we had sound effects theater on this big hit. We got to bring that back. Yeah, we got to bring sound effects theater back. I played that one for my kids and they were, my kids are not fans of my work, nor should they be, but they really liked sound effects theater. It was kind of sad. My kids are not.

No, no, I trained them not to be. I've always wanted them to aim higher. The immigrant dream is you want your kids to be better and do better than you did. And so my people came to this country from Ireland and then each generation tried to push the next generation further. So I need my children to sort of have some level of disdain for what I do and then work at a bank. That's the plan.

I like them both to work at banks. Not anything bad. I want them to be at the. Tellers? Yeah, tellers. Tellers at banks. I don't want them, if they get higher than that, then they're sort of responsible for the rapacious greed that's destroying our country.

But if they're a teller, they're like, here's a lollipop because you just opened an account. That's nice. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. Here's, do you want the leather checkbook or do you want the fake leather checkbook? You know, that seems good. Here's a calendar.

Do they still give calendars at banks? I don't think so. Glory, do they give calendars at banks? I haven't been in a bank in 30 years. I don't know. You know, when I first came to Los Angeles with Greg Daniels in 1985 and we went to Sunset Gower Studios and we worked there as comedy writers on a show called Not So The News. They then gave us our paycheck after a week and Greg and I walked to the bank and I remembered

going into the bank and just thinking like, what is this? Because it was my first job, my first real job and walking into open an account and deposit it there. And then they told me, you know, you don't have to do this anymore. There's a machine out there. You put it in the envelope. Huh. Do you remember this?

Yeah. Well, I don't remember. I wasn't there. I know you weren't there. Oh. I wasn't there either. Yeah. Well, Gourley, you may have been there.

You're kind of a weird guy. I remember there was a weird little kid in glasses and shorts who was wearing an eye-like ike button who was following me around and he said, someday we're going to work together on a future version of radio. You'll see. And then you took out a little ukulele and you went, a do-de-o-do, a do-de-o-do, a do-de-o-do, a do-de-o-do, do-do-do-do. And you ran away.

That was 30 years ago, the last time I went in a bank. They never let me back in. I remember that little kid in shorts. I met you, Gourley. See? You'll hear from me soon, Mr. O'Brien. I'll punch you in the gullet. I'm going to punch you right in the kneecap because that's as high as I can reach.

But someday I'll have a craftsman-style home and a lot of mid-century furniture. And then I'll show you all. And then you took out your ukulele again. I said, do-de-o-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. I'm going to have all kinds of special pottery made in the late 50s that I'm going to buy at a Rolls-Boswap meet. And I'm going to have some felt hats that I rarely get to wear because temperatures are too high in Pasadena.

One more song. Hadidapu and a scoodle-do. A scoodle-dee-dee-dee-dee. Did you know Eisenhower had two strokes in office? Look, kid, get lost. I thought you'd like that. I do like it, kid. But I got stuff to do.

I'm just getting started in comedy and I've got to do well enough so I can one day have a podcast. Okay, off to buy a rip-off Eames chair. Bye. I'm going to get on my 50s vintage Schwinn bicycle now. A weenit walk, a weenit walk, a weenit walk. Sure needs oil. Then you tried to play the ukulele while you were driving a Schwinn and you crashed.

I did have a Schwinn. I had a Schwinn tornado. You did with a big basket up front. And it was filled with original documents from the 1920s. Okay, let's start this goddamn show. All right, let's get this show started. Let's get this party started. I love, I love Kid Gorley.

Kid Gorley with two D's. Listen, if it's not clear, I could do Lil Gorley, I call him. Little eight-year-old Gorley in short shorts with a ukulele all day. But anyway, my guest today is a Golden Globe winning actress, producer and entrepreneur who stars as Dr. Rainbow Johnson on the hit ABC series Black-ish. I am thrilled that she is with us today. She's a lovely person. Tracy Ellis Ross, welcome.

I think we would make really good friends. I really do believe that. You're so funny. That sounds like I was giving myself a compliment. Yeah. Which is not how I intended it. I just think we would get along great. I really do.

I'm pitching myself. I feel like we do get along great. Yeah, but then that's what I think. You're on the show. You do the show and it all goes great. And then I always try and follow it up. I call you. I don't get through.

I see you all the time by the house. They say she's not here. Is he always a liar? No. I see you always. They say at your house, they say at the gate, Tracy's not here. And then I see a curtain close. And I see that you are the one that closed the curtain.

And the person who says on the intercom, Tracy's not here, sounds suspiciously like you. I'm like, Tracy's not here right now. Can I help you? Is there a message I can leave for her? Tracy, I'm pretty sure that's you. No, what? That's my assistant. I don't know.

And then you say over the intercom, I'll see if she's here and then you make fake footstep sounds. I go like this. I go. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm like, why is your assistant's feet so heavy? Why are your assistant wearing wooden clogs?

It just turns into a crazy improv. Wait, that's so weird, Connie. You don't make your assistants wear wooden clogs. I used to. And now she's pregnant with twins. And it just seems like I'm not going to get away with that anymore. I know. You've got to loosen up sometime.

And I think when people are pregnant, that's the time to do it. Yeah. This is the time now, right? Yeah, it is. The clogs were not comfortable. Okay. Yeah. All right.

All right. I will not argue with you. Tracy, we're going to be really good friends by the time this is over. I really feel like we always get along really well. And I've been thinking about you a lot today in preparation for our little chat. You know, I was realizing you have had this incredible journey to the point that you're at right now, because first of all, you're killing it. You really are.

No, people adore you. They really do adore you. And I feel like this didn't happen for you overnight. No, sir. You know what I mean? Yeah, I like that. Your business is really good. That's really a way for us to become friends.

No, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. No, sir. But you know, I think I really appreciate this from first of all, you know, you start out and a lot of people would at first glance think, oh, this is an advantage, but it really isn't to start out with your mom being such an iconic performer and such an iconic person. And you have completely carved out your own identity and highlighted your own abilities

in a way that really has nothing to do with your mom, which to me is like next to him. It's an impossible thing to do. And you did it. Well, I'll tell you, I just want to adjust one thing. So like in terms of career, having a, you know, larger than life international icon for a parent is not an easy thing. But as a parent, my mom is an incredible mom. So in that sense, I got the extraordinary opportunity and benefit of being loved.

And really wanted and appreciated and parented in a really beautiful way, which I think is what gave me the tools to go out and become my own person. But yeah, it's been quite a journey and such a good one. I mean, you know, I'm at that age where you really start to kind of take stock a little bit and like look back and go, wow, you know, some of these moments were hard. And some of them still are hard. But I think when you get to this age, or at least for me, I've gotten to this age and I feel like even the hard moments you have like a different kind of relationship with

because you don't feel like they're an indication of who you are anymore. But growing up the hard moments, you're like, oh my God, I am a failure. Like I didn't just not get cast in that. Like I actually am useless, you know what I mean? Like it kind of a mistake makes you think you are a mistake. And then you get older and you're like, no, you know, shit doesn't always go your way. And sometimes those are the learning opportunities, but it's been quite a road. And it wasn't a quick road to where I am at all.

Well, I was, you know, I can relate because my father, I don't know if you're aware is Yule Brenner and a lot of people expected me to sort of be like Yule Brenner. Yeah. Okay. I did not know that that was your dad. I thought your dad was Thomas O'Brien. You're right. I just realized.

Yeah. He's Thomas O'Brien and he's a microbiologist. Yes, exactly. Which she's Louise. Is that true? He's a microbiologist? Well, he says he's a microbiologist. That's the other thing, my dad, my dad, well, that's the thing.

No money ever came in. There's not a lot of money in microbiology. My dad would always say, well, off to the microbiology lab and then he would leave and then he would come home at the end of the day. But often we would see him just at the train station eating a sandwich. Do you know what's interesting? So what is it about the two words, microbiologist? Is it the ist and the micro that make it sound so important?

Like, could you be a micro-actorist and it would make people think, just by saying micro-actorist, people are like, my God, what is that? Yes. Yeah. Why aren't I a macro-comedist? That's what I should be. You sound... I'm a macro-comedist.

That's what I'm saying. You're a macro-comedist and people are like, oh my God, do you know the macro-comedist Conan O'Brien? Because that's... Yes. You know what? You bring up a really good point. My dad, for years, has been the amin-microbiologist and that's exactly how he sounds, by the

way, when he's very tiny. Yeah. By the way, that's the way my mom sounds, too. She's like, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and I'm like, no one knows the side of you, Ms. Ross, and she's like, amy man, amy man, amy man, amy man, amy man, amy man, amy man, and it's so fucking weird. Oh, yeah.

Why does she talk that way in private, but never in public? Well, you know, you've got to keep things sacred for yourself and your family, Conan. I suppose so. I suppose so. But yeah, my dad, you know, throwing that around. And that's what I grew up with in the shadow of microbiology and having to form my own path.

And many times feeling like I'm never gonna make it. I'm a failure. Yeah. But you know what I will say? You are, I'm very curious to figure out, how did you pull this off? Which part? Trace sales or us?

Well, first of all, you are, you're hilarious. You're absolutely just feel like effortlessly funny to me. And I always enjoy seeing you, talking to you, your performances. I'm just like, yes, I'm a big fan of yours. But did you feel like there was pressure for you to get into music or did you know instinctively? You know what I am?

I'm funny, because I'm curious about this. Because I think people have some sense. You must have had some sense as a child that you're funny. I still don't think I'm that funny. I think I'm really silly. And I think I have like a perspective that is, like I seem to look at the silly funny side of life as a disposition thing.

I'm happy to be called funny, especially by a funny person. Like that, that's like, you're like, oh, he's like, you know, the macro comediest over there, I think I'm funny, but I didn't grow up necessarily thinking I was funny. What I did realize early on is I really liked making people feel good and making people laugh. So I was always silly.

I also, my natural disposition is joyful. And I had a ton of energy growing up, which I mean, like some stories are my family, I like just had a lot of wiggles and like body stuff. Like I just had, I was always like trying to make my sisters laugh and everything. So we would sit at the dinner table and there was a glass door outside of our dining room.

And I would be like, you know, jumping around or whatever, my mom would be like so supportive. Tracy, do you, would you like to go outside and get the wiggles out? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah. And so my family would be like, you know, eating dinner. My two sisters and my mom like eating dinner. And I'm like outside the glass door,

like bouncing around, trying to get my sisters to laugh, try to do whatever. And then finally I calm down, sit down. And my mom's like, did you get them all out? And I'm like, I don't think so. And I'd like go back outside. And then you were put on Riddlin, massive doses of Riddlin.

By the way, I think if I had a different parent, I might have been. But my mom found my large energy, like my little ball of fire that was Tracy, she supported it. And I remember our pediatrician said to my mom at a really young age, like your job with Tracy, she's a big ball of fire.

And your job is to just make sure she goes in the right direction. And that fire sort of is used in the good because it could be used against me or other people. But that sounded like I was a fire starter. That was weird. Well, I was gonna ask you, my next question was these arson charges

from your childhood. That's weird, we don't really talk about those. Yeah, your publicist said nothing about childhood arson, but I have to go to it because you brought it up. A lot of mysterious fires seem to follow you wherever you go as a child. You know, it's- No, just little bundles of joy.

But no, I do think I've always done different voices and characters to the point that I don't realize that I'm doing it. And my mom, for example, I don't know, maybe like 15 years ago or something, I was on the phone with her and she started talking in this accent. I was like, what are you doing?

She said, I'm just talking like you. I was like, what? She was like, you have had three different accents in this conversation. And so this third one, I just decided I would do the same one with you. And I was like, really? I don't even notice.

But like when I'm telling a story, I just pick up a different voice and like do a different thing. So I've always done that. And I think it was like early 2000, I don't remember, I'm so bad with dates. I made a video of me doing all of these different characters and that's when my career started.

I just, I had like a French woman, I don't know, all these different things and I edited it together. It was scary. That was a door slamming, I hope. It was a door slamming because I opened the door down here and it makes a wind tunnel. So, sure.

And so- Something exploded and you're afraid to admit it. No, don't worry about it. My oven's on fire, but I'll be fine. Arson. Yet another fire, Arson. Let's just keep talking. You know, this is important. So I don't know.

I don't know that I ever thought it was funny. I do think I want to try stand up at some point in my life, but we'll see. That's interesting that you would want to jump into stand up. Just want to try it. You want to try it like one time because everyone, I feel like you have to try it multiple times.

Well, yes. I mean, you can't just jump on stage and think you're gonna, I mean, that's for sure. But all of a sudden I have, I'm looking for a tight five, Conan. I've been in comedy for like 35 years. You have a tight three. I have a tight two.

I have a really killer two minutes and then the rest is just babble that just seems to lither and blather on. So you're saying my goal should be like, can you get one minute? No, no, no, you'll be fine. You people will be so happy to see you. You know, that's the other thing too,

is you said something that I can really relate to, which is wanted to put people at ease when I was young. I didn't like it if there was tension or any kind of discomfort, including my own. So I think that's where I started using my energy and my weird mugging was a way to kind of slather like a salve over everything to kind of make it okay. And I feel like that's sort of what you're talking about

a little bit when you were younger. Yeah, it was sort of like I would walk in a room and figure out like, was it sunny? Was it raining? You know, what was it? And then try and change that temperature. And it also, you know, I was really shy growing up and my shyness manifested in a big personality,

which people don't ever believe, but the truth is that a big personality can keep people just as much at arm's length as being quiet and shy. So that was sort of my version. I'm not shy anymore. Well, I bet you have moments though, because I think it's the seesawing between,

I think sometimes a big personality can compensate for shyness. And then people have a hard time believing it, but I get kind of quiet and shy and I don't wanna see people. And it's this thing that comes over me and I don't really wanna do that. And I don't wanna be that personality.

And then there are other times where I'm working it. I'll be at a gas station and I'm walking over to other pumps. This is pre-COVID, you know, in a maskless society. And I'm like, hey, you getting unleaded? Let me tell you something, you know? And I'm trying to get them to laugh and just spill just some of that gas on the ground, you know?

That's what, and so it comes and goes. I totally identify with that. I feel like I'm an introvert who plays an extrovert in life. Like, you know, I'm really comfortable doing it out here. And then mostly when I come home, I'm just, I don't have music on, I'm just quiet. But I also, you know, I think you have to have both in order to balance.

You talk for a living, I talk for a living. And then at a certain point it's just like, you don't wanna talk anymore. It's just like, I don't wanna talk today. I do, I get, it's so crazy, because I'll be at home and the doorbell will ring and my wife will say, oh, can you get that? That's, you know, someone who's coming here to drop off

a new filter for our air conditioner or something. And I'll be like, I don't really wanna go to the door. Are you an only child? Oh, God, no, no, there's, we don't even know how many of us there are. There's, I keep meeting new ones all the time. I'm one of five and then three step, which I think inherently had made me a very

sort of village oriented person, you know? Yes, birth order is important. I'm number two. Yeah, I'm number three. My whole thing was, I will not be ignored. No one will ignore me. You ignore me, you'll pay the price, see? I'll show you one day.

I'll have something called a podcast. And then you'll all see. But look, but you showed them. I sure did. I don't think I showed anybody anything. What did you like to watch? What did you like to watch? Like, who are you drawn to on television growing up?

Because to me, that's key to figuring someone out is they would see someone on TV and go, okay, that person, that person is talking to me. If I give you the list of my favorite shows, you immediately go, oh yeah, that's who she became. Kate Nally, Cagney and Lacey. I mean. I don't think I ever saw that show.

Shut up. Did you watch Kate Nally? That was one of my favorites. No, I didn't really watch Kate. They took it off the air, I was so upset. I watched that, yeah. Well, I could tell Matt, Matt was a huge, and he's always bringing it up.

Matt just lit up. He was like, I love that show. You can't see this, but he has a giant, he has two Kate Nally posters behind him. Matt, what was it about Kate? I'm really more of an Allie than a Kate. Well, what drew you to Kate Nally, Matt? I want to look at that.

I don't know, I think it was just that, like disjointed family unit. Same thing with watching, I always watched Alice because it was a single mom and I loved it. Oh, that makes sense. I'll shut up. Oh, thank you, that's good. No, no, don't shut up.

We don't want you to do that. I just don't speak ever again. I see. It's different. Yeah. Can you go outside and get the wiggles out? I'm gonna go out and get the wiggles out. You know what was, I mean, I don't think,

I'm gonna become an old man for a second, people today don't realize how excited we got about television shows. Now there is so much television all the time, and movies, you can watch anything, it's streaming, it's everywhere, there's a hundred million things, and people are constantly telling you, you haven't seen blank, there's 15 seasons,

and it's incredible, and you've gotta catch up. Back then, I remember they would start telling us during the summer, the bionic man's coming, or the bionic woman's coming, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, and you were at a fever pitch by the time, yeah, you would start to get like, oh, when is it coming? Like you just couldn't wait, like it was the prom

or something, it was like a thing. No, yeah, I can't, I didn't go to the prom, but I can't relate to that, but okay, you just lost me with the prom, but yes, yes, imagine I had gone to the prom and been confident enough to ask a girl out and gone to the prom, then I would agree with you, but I know exactly what you're talking about, and they would have giant,

and then salutes to these shows, and then you'd watch them, and you'd be like, oh, they're just pushing in on her ear. Wait, what was the show, Battle of the Network Stars? Do you remember that? Yes, sure, yeah. I remember Circus of the Stars? Oh my God, those were so good. Do you know who the ringmaster was

on Circus of the Stars? Who? Who? Hal Linden of Barney Miller. Really? It was him dressed as a ringmaster, yes, and he'd say, welcome to Circus of the Stars, but let's get back to Battle of the Network Stars was so exciting. It was so exciting. They would get all the network stars. Remember, this is back when there's only room

for there to be so many stars on television. Sona, I'm gonna teach you right now, this is incredible. There are only so many stars, there's like three networks, there's no Fox yet, there's just three networks, there's only so many stars, and they would all come together and race each other, and they would have all kinds of competitions. It was crazy, and they would wear shoes.

And let me tell you, I'll be, I'm gonna admit something, I've never admitted, and I think it's because it just came back to me, but I kid you not, I was a track runner growing up, and I remember thinking, one day, one day, I'm gonna be a network star, and I'm gonna get on there, and I'm gonna run, and I'm gonna beat somebody in my little shorts, and I'm gonna be the winner

of the network stars. I love that character you just became. You are a network star, and then they're not doing battle network stars anymore. And honestly, I'm too old, and my knees can no longer, and I'm certainly not gonna wear the shorts, okay? Now at this point, I would wear like a sweatpants suit with the stretchy pants underneath

so that when you're in the sweatpants, nothing moves too much, and then, you know what I mean? You gotta frame what's underneath the sweatpants, and I'd have to put a brace on my knee, and I have a chiropractor waiting on the other side, and it would probably be a 20-meter dash, not a 100-meter dash. No, I love too, is it, can you imagine if they had it today?

If they had it today, it would be someone from Game of Thrones. Come on. Like the mother of dragons versus Steve Harvey. I mean, it would be so, and they'd be boxing each other, and like Harvey would go down right away, like he'd take one in the jaw, and just, you'd realize, oh my God, Steve Harvey has a glass jaw.

It would just be such a culture, that's what always freaked me out was seeing, oh, it's someone from Charlie's Angels versus someone from Star Trek. It was so crazy. World's colliding. It was so crazy. Okay, I've got crazy news. They did it in 2017. What do you mean?

They did a battle of the network stars in 2017. Who was on it? Let me see, 10 episodes, Corbin Bernson, Lance Bass, Sherry Belafonte, Misha Barton. Okay, all right, okay. Catherine Bach, oh, they brought back Catherine Bach. Okay, well listen, we're talking about, okay. Okay.

That show should have a different title. It shouldn't be Battle of the Network of the Stars, it should be Look Who We Found. Oh, come on, stop it. Oh. I'm sorry. Did I say something wrong? No, very nice, I love supportive, yes.

Yes, yes, Corbin, I understand, yes. You drink that water, hydrate that dirty mouth of yours. Oh, wow. All right, I apologize. That's terrible what I did and I feel bad. And listen, I'll be there any day myself. Probably already am there. But that's so funny.

Yeah, I really did. I used to practice my speech and I also like a good actor. I love to practice my cries. And my favorite thing was when I would actually be crying, like, you know, I'm sick because my mother told me I couldn't do something or something or other.

I remember this so vividly, it's so ridiculous. I was crying and I was laying down on the floor and I was like, oh my God, look. My tears are making a puddle on the floor. And then I was like, how many more can I get out? I was like, oh. Oh. And then I would look in the mirror and see like,

oh, you've got to soften your breath. Oh. Because you know, the best cryers in movies. I don't even know how you do that. How do you do that? Listen, the best cryers, their face stays totally un-cringe. Like mine is like, ah! It stays un-cringe, but the tears,

they can make those big crocodile tears that sit there waiting to pop out. And then they come out like that. My whole face looks like a raisin. And it's like, and my neck completely shortens. But I did learn that I can make a lot of tears and at the right angle, you really can puddle up. So basically you were using your facial muscles

and your neck muscles to wring water out of your face. Absolutely. Like a towel. Like a towel. So basically, if you look back at my childhood, I was practicing to be a really good cryer and the winner of Battle of the Network stars. So according to those dreams, oh,

and I was also fantasizing about my wedding. So according to those childhood dreams, I have failed. On all the things I didn't dream of, I've done so well. Yeah, completely. Yeah, I'm adding it up right now and you are a failure. Yes. I mean, there's no question if you just

talk to that little girl, she's like, what happened? Well, that's what's funny, too, is imagining ourselves as kids with these dreams coming to now. It wouldn't match up with what we thought it would be. But it's so much better. Oh, it is. And that's the other thing, too, is we have a youth-obsessed culture where everyone, and if you just watch commercials

and if you just pay attention to what were fed regularly as part of the American dream, we're supposed to want to be like 25 years old, I think, no, I never want to be that age again. I wouldn't go back there if you paid me. No, no, exactly. I really like it better now. And when people idealize being a child,

I think, oh, no, really? Or a teenager. And I think I conquered acne at 50. No, I don't need to. I think that's hilarious. Is it any of that? I'm grateful for all of those moments. I do have to say that I, because they really

did make me into who I am today, but I really, I wouldn't go back. I wouldn't mind, I have to say, the looseness of the skin is a fascinating, like every once in a while, I look down and I'm like, huh, huh, was that right? Should you really let up that much? Like, it seems that you should hold on to some semblance of, like, I'm skin, as opposed to like, ah, like,

it just, at a certain point, I'm like, like, ah, I don't know. Are you doing your job? Because I'm still doing mine, and this seems. So you think the Oregon skin is not holding up the side. That's what you're feeling. I'm not totally. I'm convinced that it's gotten a little laxadaisical and like. First of all, you look gorgeous.

And also, you look like someone who's going to look, I think, 30 years from now. You're going to have, you have that beautiful skin, you have that great bone structure. Don't you agree with me, Sonia? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And so my, I'm telling you, as someone

who is not exaggerating, I'm 100% Irish, and we just fall apart, like shitty, shitty trees, like really shitty, crappy trees. But look at your face. Your face is absolutely gorgeous. I'm not talking about the skin on my face. I'm telling you, it's around the knees, the armpits. There's certain areas.

You're just like, I mean, listen to me. When I was a young girl. I have whole portions of my torso that have fallen off, just that are like, if I took my shirt off, you'd see just big chunks fell off. And it's so expected of an Irish guy that no one even bothers to pick them up and put them back on. They're just like, oh, I'm Irish.

What are you going to do? What are you going to do? Yeah, I go to my dermatologist. She's like, eh, what are you going to do? So yeah, what are you saying? What are you, what's your complaint? I don't have a complaint. It's not a complaint.

It's just, it's a genuine observation of like, huh, okay. And I do think that getting older is a really interesting journey that nobody really talks about, that like really should be talked about more. Like the parts of it that are great, and the parts of it that are like, what just happened? Like, wait, I can't, like, when this starts happening, do you know what I mean?

When you like get a menu and you're like, like the fact that you- Oh, your eyes go, yeah, the eyes go. Yeah, the fact that to try and see something, you have to move something further away from you, hilarious. And yet, I do really enjoy getting older. I'm so much more comfortable in my skin,

this loose, crazy stuff that is hanging around me. Yeah, I feel like, I mean, I'm not looking forward to some of the stuff that comes with getting really old. I think I'd like it if I had like a crazy limp, just like a really pronounced crazy limp, you know? Because I would, I know me, I would turn it into shtick. You know what I'm saying? I would, and I'd get like a really eccentric cane,

and I would work it into like my act somehow. Well, I personally am convinced that I'm gonna be a person who like, well, no matter how small my lips get, I am going to wear lipstick. So even if the lipstick is all over my face, I'm gonna have red lipstick on. I'm gonna wear blush, I'm gonna wear like crazy clothing, and things like that.

But there's certain things like, you know, as I get older, I don't know about you. I wake up in the morning, or sometimes like, I try and turn over while I'm sleeping, and it's as if I have been like beaten in my sleep. Like I don't understand, I'm like, ha, ha, ha, ha. And then you turn over and then you're fine when you get up, but it's kind of like.

You experience great pain when you roll around in the bed? Yeah, like my knees, my back, like it's insanity. And I've been an athlete my whole life, so I find it really disruptive. I mean, I have arthritic knees, that's the problem. That's the problem is you were an athlete your whole life. I made very, I was very careful to not move my body much at all through my 20s, 30s, and 40s.

So I have virtually new limbs, new limbs and joints. I never, I tried not to throw a ball, and I tried not to get my heart rate up. So you're basically joints, and then there's just big clumps of skin that are just like gone. Yes, brand new joints, brand new, like the joints a baby would have.

And then chunks of skin are missing here and there. And I'm not saying it's appealing, but I don't have any pain. There's no judgment, you know, and I think the no pain is great because I personally, I think my joints are, I mean, I always joke. It's like, I'm so sorry, I can't get up. This is a new leg, I haven't learned how to use it yet.

Like it's just like, like they just popped it in and my joints are not, they're not quite, you know, working together yet. But here's something that you have going for you that I cannot relate to. You're becoming, you know, like you're a fashion icon. People love what you, that you are, right? Yeah, absolutely.

People love. I love everything you wear. Yeah, everything. I mean, you're more of a authority on these things than I am, Sonia, but you are really respected. People love you to wear their stuff. No one wants me, I'm asked not to wear things. Yeah, yeah.

People ask you not to put their clothes on. They say, please don't put our clothes on. And I get paid a lot of money by high fashion houses not to wear their clothes. That's actually what pretty much supports me is the money I get paid from all these great designers. Please don't put our stuff on's, which is why I wear primarily Sears clothing.

Yes, exactly. Which is still a clothing bag. You're a reverse model. Yeah, I'm an inverse model. I get paid so much money. We're gonna add that to your, your resume. So he's a macro comedianist and an inverse model.

I'm a macro comedianist, inverse male model. Yeah. You're paid not to wear clothing. And you, I mean, you have your own beauty line. I have my own beauty line, which has been one of the most exciting things. I really love being a CEO and using my mind in that way. And I do love fashion, always have style.

It's one of the things that brings me a great joy. Dressing myself in the early years in my growing up was one of the, it was like an armor for me. It was one of the ways that I protected myself from the world and made sure that the world saw me in a way that made me feel safe, honestly. And that you could, yeah, and that you could control. So.

Yeah. And I realized actually looking back, cause there was a particular way there's an attitude I have when I go into a retail store that I picked up and adopted when I was younger. And it was about, it was, it had to do honestly with racism, but I didn't realize that until now, looking back, that it was one of the ways

that I sort of dispelled this idea that I was gonna be looked at as if I was somebody who wouldn't be able to afford what was in a store. So I would go in with this particular kind of energy and wearing particular kinds of things that I had snagged from my mom's closet. And this was to telegraph, to sort of communicate that I belong here, I should be here.

And there's nothing you have in your store that I can't afford. Yeah. And I don't think I had a name for it then. I don't think of it, I had any idea. And I recently have realized that so many of the privileges that I had growing up being the education that I had, the fact that I came from fame and money and light skinned

and because of my mixed heritage and the beauty privilege that all of those things created particular kinds of blind spots for me and I didn't realize the systemic nature of what was happening around me. So whenever I experienced particular things, I took it personally, I thought it was something that I was doing wrong or I had to combat on my own. As I've gotten older, I've sort of looked at,

I can see the larger nature of those things. And that's why I love it. I love those things and that's why looking back, I can think like that was part of how I was costuming myself as I would go out into the world. But other than that, fashion and style bring me so much joy. And also some of my characters come out of it.

Like I call my closet my happy place and sometimes I go in there and I put together an outfit and sometimes I come out as a character. It's so funny you bring that up because I think you kid on this concept that clothing is a way for so many people that they can control how people see them and you bring up, you know, race is such a,

such, I mean, it's always been an overwhelming issue in this country, but it's a ubiquitous conversation these days and it's a way if you're, for anyone who is self-conscious about how they're seen and how they might be judged, the fact that you have this control, if you take a strong stance with your clothing to declare who you think you are, that's very powerful.

I also think that from a creative standpoint, it's a way for a lot of people, an entrance into a lot of conversation. Like for designers and stuff, like there really is a platform in how we close ourselves that tells a story. It's always brought me great joy, I have to say. I don't know if it's because I'm my mom's child,

but I mean, not all my siblings have the same kind of, my brother Evan and I have the same, just like lust for great clothes. You said you stole your mom's clothes, let's just call it. Listen, I call it shopping. Okay, with clothes around it, I call it shopping. I think if it's within the family, it's shopping. Sure, the problem is when she says,

no, you can't take that and you take it anyway. I have been known to literally, I mean, this is what's so sad, my brother and I still to this day, it's ridiculous. Sometimes when we're over at my mom's, we'll like look at each other with that look and he'll be like, should we go shopping? You're still doing it.

I'm telling you, there's things all over my house. I don't know if you can see those leopard pillows behind me. Stolen, stolen, that table down there is stolen. It's stolen. Listen, the next time you do that, can you and your brother bring me with you? It would be so great. It is so funny.

It would be so great if I came home and my wife was like, where'd you get that feather bow, it belonged to Diana Ross. She was like, I stole it. I stole it from Diana Ross. Yeah, I would love that. Conan, why are you wearing those seven inch pumps? Diana Ross, it would be so cool. Oh my God, it's so funny.

There's actually like, yeah, my mom has incredible taste in furniture, clothing, the whole thing. And so I, but I had a rule in college because I called home from school once and I was like, mom, what are you doing? I've been calling and no one's answering. She's like, oh, I'm going through all my old stuff and Aunt Rita, my sister's coming to pick it all up to sell.

And I was like, what? No. And I put down my foot just like my, and I said, nothing can leave the house without my approval. So when I would come home sometimes for weekends, my room, my bedroom was filled with big black garbage bags filled with the most extraordinary clothes. And I would determine what could be kept

and what could be sold. Can't you next time steal some luggage? I don't like your mom's clothes being in garbage bags. Well, she was like, I don't need these. I don't want this, but she has no sense. To me, she has no sense of the stuff that is valuable because for her, it was like a t-shirt. I'm like, yeah, and you were photographed in it.

The other day I was like going through some Diana Ross fan account and I found these images of my mom in a sweater that I have and she was in studio 54. That's a big deal. It is a big deal. And yes, and think about the price now that, to what I'm saying, I'm like, I need to stop wearing

and getting sweaty armpits in it and hang it up somewhere and put it in like a plastic, I mean like a plexiglass box, hang it on the wall. Well, no, sell it, you sell it. That's what you do, you sell it. No, you gotta hold on to the nostalgic memorabilia. You gotta hold on to it, Bubbler. That's the way you keep that legacy alive.

You keep it, you put it in tissue paper and acid-free tissue paper, you put it in a box and you put it somewhere in storage. And then when you're like 96, somebody comes and they say, oh my God, I can see this is the thing Diana Ross wore back in the 70s in New York at studio 54 and a daughter has it and now it's like double the legacy because the daughter was also on television

and I think we have a picture of her in it. Right? You know what I love is we can actually break this into like five different podcasts. You know, this is, we were killing so many birds with one stone, like this is like five separate podcasts with five very distinct people. I have to ask you, you feel like you got a lot

of your sense of humor from your dad. Yes, absolutely, my dad is hilarious. And tell us about your dad. My dad's name is Robert Ellis Silverstein, also known as Beverly Hills Bob. My dad managed Chaka Khan, Billy Preston, what, oh my God, Meatloaf. And he is just a charismatic, gorgeous, handsome,

funny, self-deprecating, Bob Silverstein, I don't know, Bob Ellis, and that's where my middle name, Tracy Ellis Ross comes from. When I joined SAG, there was another Tracy Ross and I really wanted my dad's name and my name so that he could have claimed to me because I'm so much a part of him. It's so funny, people think I look like my mom,

which I do, I look a lot like my mom. And then when they see my dad, they're like, oh my God. We have the same laugh, we're like little twins. And yeah, he's just a lovely human being. But that's such a cool thing to have this. I think I'm always envious of people that have some kind of mixed heritage. Do you know what I mean?

To have these sort of two different identities that you can draw on, you know? I mean, my people are, basically, we just keep marrying each other throughout the generation. Tends to skin falling off. Exactly, yeah, it's my body rapidly decaying. But I don't know, I feel like you could draw on these two cultures, which you clearly do,

which would be kind of superpower. And so much of who I am comes from the two of them. You know, it's interesting, my core group of best girlfriends as well are also of mixed heritage. Chinese and Trinidadian and Lebanese, but her Trinidadian part has Chinese in it. And then Chinese and Italian, my other best friend from growing up.

And there's something really wonderful about, which is honestly a lot of what Blackish deals with, this idea of what is culture, what's identity, what's race, and what, if anything, do you pass on to your children? Is it tradition? Is it culture? Is it just who you are? It's such an interesting conversation,

and it's so much of what my life has been. And something that I so appreciate, I remember my friend Samira and my friend Monica, both of them take their shoes off when they enter their house. And I wasn't raised doing that. And I found it really intriguing, because they're both from completely different worlds,

but they both do that. And I asked them, because I'm always so intrigued by these kinds of things. Like, what is that about? Is it just because it's dirty outside? Is it a respect thing? Like, what is it? And it was so fascinating to me

that two people do the same thing with different reasons, and then it also just becomes the thing their parents did and what they did in their homes. So then that's what they do in their homes. And it's just such a beautiful thing to me. And what I think makes it the most delicious is all of these different beautiful places and ways that you learn things about people

and then also connect in the ways that you're the same. I don't know, I just love it. Yeah, I think also one of the values, you bring up blackish. And one of the things I love about it is, it's a funny show, but it's also, you're talking about, I think for so long, race was not discussed. And then suddenly we get into this environment

where race is discussed in this very heated way and people can get very defensive, obviously. And when a show manages to be funny and nuanced about it, it feels like kind of a gift. Yeah, I think there's so much, I keep saying this, but Mary Poppins said it so well. Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. I mean, the laughter really opens your heart.

And I think there's a lot to say about what happens when your heart is open and what you can hear about humanity and things that are different than the humanity that you know, but that opens you up to a different way of thinking. And I think blackish has done a really beautiful job of finding that balance. And I hope it's an example for people, honestly,

like you can have differing opinions and you can grow. Like, you don't have to be like, you can evolve, you can learn that that opinion you had was not a great one. Like, I don't know about you, but I look back on some of the things I thought and believed when I was younger, thank God I grew out of those thoughts. You know what I mean?

Like, I get that at the time those were my best options or the best choice that I had or whatever that was in terms of the information I had, but you get more information and you go, well, that was a dumb idea, you know? But for some reason, right now people are like digging their feet in further. It's like, what are you doing?

It's that and then the converse is also true where people are saying, hey, you just, we just found tape of you saying something when you were 16 years old and it's not exactly PC now, so you need to leave your job. And I think, well, that's, it's not allowing for humanity. It's not allowing for all and growth and all of us are flawed.

And we have to allow for that in other people. Yeah, and I also think that's the reason, it's one of the reasons that, I mean, there's a lot of good in the concept of cancel culture, but I would prefer to use the concept of calling in culture, calling people in. Like, I'm not calling you out, I'm not canceling you. You might end up needing to be canceled.

Don't get me wrong. Some people it's like, yo, bye, you canceled. But, no, there has been many people throughout history and recent history who need to be canceled. Yes, be clear about that, but, yes. But then there's also, how are we going to keep growing and evolving as a culture? And as people and as individuals,

I mean, I don't know about you, but I learned my best when somebody is loving with me. If you call people out and if you try and shame them, you're probably not gonna get anywhere with them. Yeah, it's hard to realize you've done something wrong and how you pointed out sometimes is a part of the, you know, the process, but, you know, I think we're in a, we're in this,

the soul of this country is in a real wrestle. And I do think this is a time when sticking your head in the sand is just, I'm sorry, not allowed. Yep, I do it for sun protection, primarily. Well, for that reason, you're fine. But you have to make sure there's, you know, little straws to your ears.

I can hear perfectly. Yeah, that's what matters. I have straws coming out my ears, but trust me, I've got to get my head in that sand because you don't want to see me after I've been in the sun for an hour. It just takes a second. Does that mean when you, what, do you just stay under,

like do you full on have to be undercover? Like does sunblock do it or do you need like? Oh God, no. Okay, that's not that. You know, I put sunblock on and then I put a beekeepers outfit over that. And then I put a Flemish armor from the 15th century over that.

And then I have a bathroom spackling put over all of that. And then you stay inside. And then they, and then I stay inside and I read Harry Potter books again. So, but you know what? I am delighted and grateful to call you a friend because you're a lovely person. You really are.

And you're an admirable person. And I would love some time to drop by if I'm invited and raid your mom's closet with you, you know? I'll do that whenever you want. Because I will find something in that closet that I can wear. This is hilarious. Can you imagine?

I will. The visual of that is so good that I actually might have to have you over to do that. But I will say that I, you know, you also Conan, you're just, you have remained the same wonderful person all these years and you have a consistent ability to have an open heart, a self-deprecating way about you, but also a way to connect that, you know,

we go on your show and you actually have a conversation with us. That's nice. You know what I mean? Thank you for saying that. We actually have like an exchange. It's not like a transaction and that's the reason. It's just lovely.

And it's, I always have fun. Like I have fun. And so this was 10 times because I feel like we never get enough chance to talk. No, this is the bare minimum of time that I, I can't keep you any longer because it's criminal how long I've kept you, but this is the bare minimum of the amount of time

I demand with you because it's really fun. I'm gonna do this now. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get friends and make them talk to me on a podcast. I'm telling you, this is the greatest scam I've ever concocted. It is occasionally we read an ad and sure, okay, that keeps the lights on,

but it is the greatest scam in the world. Well, Tracy Ellis Ross. So good, thank you. God bless, thank you so much for talking to me and I'm coming over soon. I really am. Okay, I can't wait to have you. My God, I got the character at the end, not the real. Now I have to go visit that character.

We talked about this on a previous podcast, but I love an obscure impression. And Matt, you have one of the better ones, which is, is it HR Giger? HR Giger. Oh, Giger, I'm sorry, Giger. He's the guy that did the creature design for Alien, the Alien movies.

And he's kind of famous in certain circles. That's being kind. Yeah, but how did you become obsessed with this guy? Oh, I was watching the special features of an Alien film and he said, he goes, something like, they articulate like a dinosaur. Sometimes I eat eggs in the morning, but they are bruised purple varicose eggs

with a yolk that runs like a pupil juice. Is that really how he sounds? Kind of. I love that. He did like Blondie album covers and then he built a mic stand for the band, Corn. You know, it's just all this like sexual, gothic, biomechanical stuff.

Oh my God. So Giger is obsessed with sexual imagery, kind of a steampunk, sexual energy, maybe. Yeah, a proto steampunk, but he's also strangely kind of venison and sweet. Like he has a little cat and he. So he says Dinosaur? Dinosaur.

Dinosaur. You're obsessed with Giger the way I'm obsessed with Werner Herzog. You know, you ever watched his movie, The Documentary About the Bear? Grizzly Man. Yeah, Grizzly Man. I hooked into Werner Herzog because

when he was talking about the bear, you know, the bear in the documentary. I love that and Grizzly Man, he keeps talking about how nature is madness. And then I noticed that it is, that as a theme with him is that nature is madness. And then he did some film about, is it Antarctica or something where he's with the penguins?

And there's a guy his job is just to watch the penguins. And so he's interviewing that guy about what it's like to watch penguins all the time. And the guy is saying like, yeah, I know it's pretty interesting, you know, they, it's pretty cool. I mean, it's, I love watching penguins. They're, they're kind of neat, they're, they're pretty chill.

And Werner Herzog is like, but don't you think that living in this hustle environment, maybe in this blanket of white and the anarchy of nature, don't you think that the penguins are in danger of going mad? And the guy is so great cause like, the guy's like, I don't know, I don't think so. And he's like, if they haven't yet, then Werner Herzog goes back to his narration

and he's looking at the penguin. He's like, you see them and you know, that nature is just violence and chaos in a swirling vortex of madness. And it's the most adorable penguins just standing around. And you realize, oh, that's how Werner Herzog sees everything, you know? Like he goes to Wendy's to the drive-thru.

He's like, I'll have the double, I'll have a double cone. I want to, I want to freeze, he frosty with a double of a, and a sprinkle of madness. He goes to like the hall of presence. He goes on the It's a Small World ride. It's a small, you look at these children representing different nationalities. And you know, trapped on this island

watching tourists go by on the boats. You know that they are consumed with anarchy and madness. It's a small world after all. Oh my God. It's a small world. The children from Iraq seem particularly insane. My God. Trinidad and Tobago, they go especially mad. I'm just doing Paula Thunken's amazing impression of Herzog. Trinidad and Tobago will soon be consumed by the bear

because only the bear understands their true insanity being from Trinidad and Tobago. Don't even get me started on Chad. Oh, Chad. Chad the country? No, Chad Everett, the actor. Wait, what? Consumed with madness.

Wait, Chad Everett. No one's referenced Chad Everett in years. Chad Everett was consumed with the madness of being a 70s star. He sounds very Schwarzenegger-esque. I know, one impression. Yeah. Anyway, that gave me a chance to repurpose

my outdated Schwarzenegger impression. Everybody wins. Everybody wins. I'm a conservationist when it comes to impressions. I have like two of them. And I like to repurpose them as much as possible and not just toss them into a landfill like more talented performers.

Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend with Sonam of Sessian and Conan O'Brien as himself. Produced by me, Matt Gorely. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Salatarov, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Earwolf. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vavino. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair,

and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. The show is engineered by Will Bekton. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review featured on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already,

please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.