Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - Trapped and Neutered

Episode Date: November 25, 2021

Conan chats with Emily from Kentucky about studying clinical psychology and working with a trap-neuter-release nonprofit for cats. Wanna get a chance to talk to Conan? Submit here: TeamCoco.com/CallConan

Conan O'Brien needs a fan. Want to talk to Conan? Visit teamcoco.com slash call Conan. Okay, let's get started. Hey, Emily Meet, Conan and Sona. Hi, so nice to meet you guys. So excited to be here. Hi, Emily. How are you? Doing pretty well. How are you?

I'm good now. It's nice to talk to you, Emily. Let's begin, you know, finding out who you are. Who is this Emily, this mysterious Emily? Where are you calling from right now? I am from Lexington, Kentucky right now. I'm originally from Indianapolis, but we're in Kentucky at the moment. You're living in Kentucky, which, by the way, I know Illinois likes to say they're the land of Lincoln.

Sorry, Lincoln was born in Kentucky. This is true. I don't like the way Illinois sort of grabbed Lincoln. Lincoln's from Kentucky. And that's just, I know that we were going to get into this eventually. I know this is going to be a big part of this conversation, and I was not going to have it. That's exactly where I was going to go.

Yeah, no, I know. I know that's why you're a fan, and that's why you and I are destined, destined to be best friends. Let's talk about you. You're living in Lexington, Kentucky. Tell me about yourself, Emily. Yeah, so I'm currently a doctoral candidate at the University of Kentucky. Oh, that's impressive. Yes, very fancy, I know.

In clinical psychology, so what I do is I learn how to do therapy, so I do have therapy patients that I see, and I also do research at the same time. So you're seeing patients? I am, yes. Okay, okay, have you, or do you think you're pretty good at diagnosing what someone's psychological issues might be?

Hmm, with proper assessment, yes. Okay, well, you've probably listened to our podcast before. I have, I have. Okay, would you call me a narcissist? Would I have narcissistic tendencies, do you think? Well, no, why are you going, we have a professional here, Emily. I'm sorry, yes, sorry, go ahead, Emily.

I was just giving my professional opinion. You know, I think Conan, you might be too self-aware to be a narcissist. Oh, I like that. I think, you know what, I think that's true. I'm very self-aware. I think as narcissists go, I'm extremely self-aware. How's that? You're the best at being self-aware.

I am so good at being self-aware. I just ace being self-aware, and I might be so self-aware that I'm the greatest man that ever lived. So what is your feel, what are you most interested in when you're talking to people about psychological issues or what do you want to study? What would you say is your forte? My main research focus is actually in emotion-based risk

for impulsive behaviors. So basically what I'm interested in is how people's emotions makes them do things that aren't helpful for them. So like problematic drinking behavior, risky sex, gambling, all of the fun stuff, but with a primary focus on problematic alcohol use. Now, without getting too clinical here, there's another component with alcohol use, right,

which is it's chemical. There's a chemical dependency that's happening, right? Or is it a psychological trigger? So it's a little bit of both, right? So there is the chemical component, the physical dependency on it, but then what I'm kind of interested in is how people get into that pattern of,

I feel really bad, I don't want to feel bad anymore, so I'm going to drink so I can not feel bad anymore, and then you kind of get into that cycle. Right, and as many people know, first drink makes you feel good, and then every drink after that is trying to regain the excitement that you got and pleasure you got from that first drink.

And it's a never-ending spiral. Are you saying too much here? No, but I didn't know that. That's fascinating, actually. I think that's, well, you know, there's a whole new movement on a sober movement that does not go through AA that talks about this. I'm sorry, I read a lot,

and I shouldn't reveal my own curiosities, but yeah, there's a whole movement based on this, and I thought you and I as professionals could talk about it. Wait, what? Well, we're both very learned people. No, she's learned. I don't know, read an article. Oh, David.

Okay, thanks a lot, David. Excuse me, I read half the article. Just the headline. I read half the article, and then it was time for my Sudoku. But the half I read, I learned a lot, and so that's interesting. So, risky behavior, risky sex, alcohol,

just people that like to go to the edge, what makes them do that? What do you think makes them do that? Is that a self-loathing, or is it carpe diem? Is it that simple? No, it's not. It's something self-destructive, right? Yeah, I guess the way I look at it,

or the way that my lab looks at it, is like I mentioned, so there's this idea, or there's a concept called urgency. So it's the tendency to do rash things when you're feeling strong emotions. So that could be like really happy emotions, or really sad emotions.

So what happens is, let's say you're feeling really sad, you're like, I don't want to feel really sad anymore. This is really unbearable. Then you do something risky, because that's really like reinforcing. It takes away the bad feelings, and so then it is kind of a negative feedback loop

where you start to learn. Yes, yeah. Well, I've done some cognitive therapy. I don't know if you're interested in cognitive therapy at all, but it's all about triggers in your mind, neural grooves that we fall into, and how can you break that pattern?

I've heard you talk about cognitive therapy before, and I really love that you talk about it, because it's like one of the best evidence-based therapies we have for things like anxiety, depression, all the things that you might go see a therapist for. So that is what I practice for the most part. So always very excited to hear you talk about that. Yeah.

It's got a really interesting component, which is when you're going, I mean, I used to just always go into these really negative drain pool loops, just down, down, down, down. It was all these negative thoughts, and so I would write them all down. Part of cognitive therapy is write it down.

You know, I'm no good. People hate me. I'm not funny. I write all these things down. And I've read all those things, by the way, in various publications. Oh, great. Oh, no.

It's really funny when your negative thoughts are mirrored in national reviews. But anyway, I would write these things down, and then you walk away for a while, and then you come back 20 minutes later, and when you've done some breathing and walked around a little bit, and you look at those same thoughts,

and you look at them with dispassion. You look at them with a little bit of distance, and you go, is this true? Is this really... And they don't look true to you when you look at them again, you know? I mean, some of them do, like my lips are too thin,

or I've got beady eyes. Those, I'm like, yep, that's true. But then there are other ones that don't bear out as true. And you realize it's just a negative thought, and that's a very powerful tool, creating new, healthier neural grooves in the mind. That's cool.

I like that. It's like writing an email to someone when you're really pissed off, and then waiting, and then reading it again the next day and realizing, like, ah, I can't send that. Exactly. Exactly.

And so I hope that you'll use some of what we've said in your own studies, and then credit us, Emily. There it is. Well, no, I just, I would like to be, I feel like I have something to offer in this field. I don't want to do the hard work and the study, but I want all the,

I want the cherry on the top of the sundae. You don't want to do anything, but you want all the credit. Yeah, I want Emily and anything she does in her career to say, and of course I've talked this over with Conan O'Brien, and I would like to share this Nobel Prize with them. She's about to diagnose you now.

The study is O'Brien at all. What do you do in your spare time? You're clearly, well, first of all, are you, you know, I'm just going to go for it. Are you, are you in a relationship? Are you, you know, telling me about your life on your private life and telling me in great detail.

Yes, of course. Yeah, so I am very recently married, so it was about two months ago. Congratulations, that's great. That's really nice. Yeah, yeah, very exciting. So there's that. Got that going for me.

What's this guy's name? Can I know his name? Yes, his name is Julian. Julian, okay, all right. Yes, he's a big, he is a big fan. He was giving me some notes before this. Oh, good. So possible things I could talk about.

So. I have this Freudian urge now to fight Julian. I don't know what that's all about. I do. I don't know why. I feel like I need to. You don't know anything about him, besides that he's married to Emily.

Exactly. But I feel like I need to prove myself to Emily by fighting Julian. Is that crazy? Yeah. Emily, is that crazy? You wouldn't know. I don't think it's crazy.

It's like where anyone gets hurt, but we just rustle around a little bit and then we just hold each other. You're similar. Wow. Okay, well, that took a turn. That's a whole new. Look, I'll talk it over with Julian.

He knows exactly what I'm talking about. Sure. What does he do? So he actually has a degree, a master's degree in social work, but he works in public health right now. It sounds like his field is dangerously close to yours. It is very close to mine.

Yes. I was talking about this earlier. When we argue, it's very tactical, almost annoyingly so sometimes. So, for instance, I never do the dishes. I'm terrible at it. So instead of being like, God, why don't you ever do the dishes?

We have to be like, you don't do the dishes. It makes me feel sad. I would like it if you would please. Oh, no. Yes, yes. So he's doing that. He's read all the handbooks you've read. But it's healthy.

He has. It's healthy, but it's also very, it's annoying because each of them, each of them are using all the special tools in the toolbox. Yeah. This is how I feel when you don't do the dishes. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Rather than just like, you slob, do the dishes. Yeah, but isn't you slob, do the dishes? That's not productive. It's pretty good. You get out some anger. You get to call the other person a slob. So can I just call bullshit on,

I'm not good at doing the dishes. That's what I say to my wife. And she says, what are you talking about? It's called rinsing the plate, you know, and wiping it clean. A chimpanzee can do it. When people say I'm not good, you know, I'm not, I know,

but I'm just not good at flushing the toilet. It's just not my thing. It's ridiculous. Let's probe your psychosis here. Okay, okay. Why are you refusing to do the dishes when it's clearly something you can do as a very intelligent grown person?

Right. Yeah, man, you've really called me out. I'm not going to have to let Julian listen to this. Why aren't you doing the dishes, Emily? I don't like to do them. Right. There's a lot of things we don't want to do. It sucks.

And your hands dry out. I get it. I totally get it. And the sponge smells bad. Yeah, so better he do it. Why is it okay for Julian to do it, but not you? He has a more specific way that he would like them to be done. So they're...

There it is. See, there you go. The rule is like, if you have a specific way you want it done, then perhaps you should do it. Okay, all right. You're standing up for Julian now, and you wanted to fight him like five minutes ago. Well, I also said it wouldn't be a very vicious fight.

It would be kind of a slap fight, and then we'd hold each other for a while. Yeah, and then you'd watch the dishes. And we'd watch the dishes together, and we'd bitch about Emily. What's her deal, man? I know. Tell me about it.

So strategic and manipulative. You do that too sometimes to me. What do you mean? When I would sometimes forget to put your travel info in your calendar. Sometimes forget. You'd be like, why do you forget? And I'm like, maybe just because I'm a forgetful person,

but you always thought there was like a deeper thing there, but sometimes it's just on the surface. Well, we later on found out that you were chewing a lot of gummies. And so I think that's why your memory went in the trash can. But the other day I had to take a trip, and I looked down at my iPhone, my whole artinerary, and everything was in there because David had taken care of it.

Thank you, David. And I was shocked because that had never happened before under the old regime. You also were texting me not thinking it was in there. I texted you and said, well, can you let me know? And then I realized it was already in there, something that never happened under the presidency of one Sonoma Sestian.

Emily, can you dissect this first? This is just me stating fact. There's no psychological, you know, who do you going on here? There is abuse, psychological abuse, I would say. No, it's me just waiting to hear Emily's take on you two. Well, anyway, we still need to get into that. Move on. This is just a reasonable boss trying to get his employee

to do pretty much what is their job, and they are refusing to do it. So anyway, we're done with that. Moving on. What do you do in your spare time, Emily? Yeah, so I have a kind of an odd hobby that I do in my spare time. Do you murder people? I know.

And take out their organs and then stuff them, and do you have a whole collection of them? No, but it's interesting that that's where you went first. Oh, so now you're going to judge my hobby? Oh, okay. Well, yes, what my answer is they shouldn't be hitchhiking. They're taking a huge risk. Talk about risk reward.

They're hitchhiking, and a lot of time I figure they won't be missed. So why shouldn't they be a statue in the basement? Oh, that's so worse. Oh, no. Okay, I'm sorry, Emily. So tell me about your strange hobby that you're ashamed of. Yes, so I'll tell me about my strange hobby. I'm not ashamed of it, so I am actually, I'm on the board of directors for a nonprofit

that does trap neuter release with cats. So basically what I do is I go out and I trap feral cats in a humane trap, take them to the humane society, get spayed and neutered, and then release them back out. Oh, wow. That's a really, how did you get it? I mean, well, there are probably all kinds of psychological triggers as to how you got involved in this, but it's a really good thing to do.

It's a very good thing to do. I'm curious, I think catching a feral cat would be extremely risky. I mean, even domesticated cats are assholes. And you're talking about trapping a feral, I mean, we have domesticated cats, we have cats that live with us that we feed all the time, we take care of them, and every time I encounter them, I'm in danger of them scratching me to death. They treat me like they're meeting me for the first time and they want me dead. So how do you trap a feral cat?

There are a couple different ways, but mostly what you do, there are these traps that you can set up. There's two different kinds, but one of them looks almost like a big cartoon trap that you would see in Looney Tunes. And so you prop this big box up, it's propped up on a stick, essentially. Oh my God, that's really what they used to use in cartoons. Elmer Fudd did that to try to catch Bugs Bunny. So it's a big box propped up with a stick,

and what do you put in there is the lure. Like tuna or sardines or something, and then you basically hold onto the string and you can kind of hide. So like I've hidden in bushes, I've hidden behind my car, I've hidden in all sorts of places. No one's done this in 300 years, this is fantastic. It works amazing, it just looks a little weird from the outside. Yeah, so have people come by when they've seen a box with a stick propped up,

then a long string and they see a mature adult woman hiding behind a bush, they don't know what you're trying to catch. They think, oh my God, she's trapping children. They may, I'm not sure, but I'm sure I look pretty weird because a lot of times if you make eye contact with the cats, it also freaks them out, so I'm just sitting behind some barrier not looking at the cats while people just walk their dogs on the street or something like that. And then you just have to sense when the cat's there.

You have to try and peek for when the cat's there and then you can pull it. Maybe you can hear it eating, if you've put out a sardine, maybe you can hear the cat going, oh, good sardine. That's exactly what they do. Lucky me. That's a weird box with a stick. It's kind of sounding like Jimmy Stewart. Oh, shut me out, shut me out.

Wow, you're trapping these cats, good for you. And then you get them, I feel like my wife had me trapped and neutered. Come on, guys, you know what I'm talking about. There's no guys here that go like, yeah, man. And high five you? That's what marriage is, man. Yeah, just surrounded by very intelligent people. Yeah, that's nice.

That sucks. Did you like that joke? No. Oh, I thought it was terrible. Okay. But still, I'm going to stand by it. Oh, okay, that's your decision. I do a volume business.

Anyway, I need to get a bunch of guys around me. Like when I make a joke like that, like, hey, you talk about trapped and neutered. I think that was called my wedding, right, guys? And then I want a lot of guys going, yeah. And then I want a guy to have a horn go, eh, eh, eh. You know, I just want, I want a whack pack. You want a posse. Yeah.

People who suck up to you. Yeah, meatheads. Meatheads that suck up to me. Okay. And I'll make more of those jokes and they'll just go, yeah. It'll be like entourage. I want, yes, exactly. I want a turtle here with me.

Well, Emily, I, you're very smart. You're very cool. Oh, thank you. I worry a little bit that, I worry a little bit about you and Julian, your husband, getting into the psychological weeds too much. So just watch for that. And if you guys ever need me to intervene as a counselor, I'd be happy to be there. Wow, that's someone not taking me up. That is the sound of someone not taking me up on that offer.

You know, I'm being very polite. Yes. Yeah. Well, you've been married for a while, right? So maybe you do know how this whole thing works. I wouldn't say I know how it works. I've been married almost 20 years. Oh, that's right.

Yeah. And it is, I know it's a cliche, but we have a good sense of humor in our marriage. And I think that is a huge, huge component. I think that's big. But she wouldn't have laughed at that joke either. Oh, God, no, she doesn't think I'm funny. But she likes to watch funny shows. No, she likes to watch really funny shows with me.

God, no. Oh, not me. Well, can I help you with anything before we wrap this up, Emily? Is there anything I can do for you? Yeah. So my question was going to pull on some of your psychological expertise here. So if you had all of the resources in the world, I guess, any possible resource. And by the way, I do.

Okay. Great. Good to know. I'm a very powerful person. Yeah. Great. So you're already set up for this. So all the resources, what psychological study would you want to create?

Like, what do you want to know? What do you want to study? Wow. That's really fascinating. Okay. This is what I would like to know. Is there really such a thing as a selfless act? That's a good one.

Because there are a lot of people in our culture, obviously, that want to look selfless and want to look like they're doing good just to do good. But then we later find out that, well, actually, no, they liked being seen this way. They liked the attention that came with it. They liked the feeling that they were a good person. So it was a selfish act, ultimately. And so I think it's much rarer than we think it is. I was going to say, is it still selfless if you do it and it makes you feel good, but no one else knows about it?

Yeah. Well, that's exactly the point, is that even the, you know, even you could say Gandhi. You could say Gandhi. You just did that because it made you feel good, you know. But, and yes, so that's tricky and really trying to get to the core of are we always acting in our self-interest, even if we are doing something amazing for other people and nobody sees it and nobody knows it's us. And maybe that's OK. Yeah, that's really interesting.

I'll add it to my list of studies to do. I'm glad, I'm glad that you actually see me now as someone who's on your level. Of course. Someone who is a colleague. Could you please just reference me in one of your works? I know it sounds pathetic, but I really do think that just in our brief time together, I've now achieved all the knowledge that you have. Right.

Yeah, I'll just put a little like in the acknowledgments of my dissertation. Yes, exactly. When you do your study for Lancet or the New England Journal of Medicine, could you just put a little, you know, in my colleague Conan O'Brien? Interestingly, just a little footnote. Just a little footnote. Colleague. Well.

Come on. All right. I think it's reasonable. Emily, very cool to talk to you. You are a very impressive person and go forth and do good works and please help with the dishes. I'll tell Julian you said so. I'm totally on his side. He's like over in the other room right now, probably like why are Emily and Conan and

Sona and David talking so much about me? It's very suspicious. It is. It's very suspicious, but I see him as a big threat to me now. So I have to deal with that. I have to go talk to my therapist. About why he's such a threat to you. Yeah, exactly.

I'm both repulsed and intrigued by your husband, who I've never met. Emily, thanks. It's really cool talking to you. Seriously. Yeah. Super nice to talk to you guys. This was really fun. Yeah.

All right. We'll take care. See you Emily. Bye. Bye. Emily. Bye. Conan O'Brien needs a fan with Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian and Matt Gorely.

Produced by me, Matt Gorely. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Soloteroff and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson at Earwolf. Music by Jimmy Vivino. Supervising producer, Aaron Blair. Associate talent producer, Jennifer Samples. Associate producers, Sean Doherty and Lisa Berm. Engineered by Will Beckton.

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