Consider This from NPR - A North Korean Defector SharesThoughts On Diplomacy With U.S.

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

When Kim Hyun-woo stepped into the NPR studios in Washington, he was doing something that in his past life would have gotten him killed - speaking frankly with an American journalist. That's because Mr. Kim spent 17 years working for North Korean intelligence at the Ministry of State Security.He defected in 2014 and lives today in South Korea. In a rare glimpse behind the curtain of one of the most isolated countries in the world, he shared his thoughts on pathways to diplomacy between Washington and Pyongyang, possible successors to Kim Jong Un and his fears for loved ones who remain in North Korea. Kim Hyun-woo spoke with NPR's Mary Louise Kelly in an exclusive interview. In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University performs breakthrough research every year, making discoveries that improve human health, combat climate change, and move society forward. More of the world knows little about. For 17 years in North Korea, I worked for North Korean intelligence agency. You were a spy. My role was more about protecting the regime's security internally. I spoke with Mr. Kim here in Washington last week. He had just stepped off the plane the first time he'd ever set foot on American soil. I asked for details of his work at North Korea's top intelligence agency, the Ministry of State Security.

Main task was not to send out agents abroad, but rather to track down, identify, and catch what the regime views as hostile agents or hostile activities within the state. For much of his life, speaking frankly with an American journalist, would have gotten Kim Hyun-woo killed. But in 2014, he defected. Today, he lives in Seoul, South Korea, where his work with a state-funded think tank, the Institute for National Security Strategy, means he still tracks what's happening in his birth country, including North Korea's response to the COVID-19 pandemic. I predict that North Korea suffered from pandemic

even more severe than other countries, fundamentally because North Korea's healthcare infrastructure is severely deficient. I question the credibility of North Korea's official state message that due to locking down the country, there was no spread of pandemic. He is also monitoring possible succession scenarios in the regime. I think it will be difficult to give an exact answer. Based on what we know about the protocols and the traditions behind North Korea's leadership succession, as of now, there is no concrete evidence for us to argue Kim Joo-hye, the

daughter, is going to be the next in line for North Korea's regime leadership succession, as of now. Coming up, how Kim Hyun-woo views North Korea's relations with the U.S. and whether he will ever be able to go home. Sadly, I do not know what happened to my relatives. And that's why when I'm in South Korea every day, morning, daytime, and evening, I pray earnestly that God will keep them safe in North Korea, all my cousins and relatives. From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It's Wednesday, June 14th. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies.

Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today, or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation.

Working together to create a just world where all people have access to renewable energy, clean air and water, and healthy food. The Schmidt Family Foundation is part of the philanthropic organizations and initiatives created and funded by Eric and Wendy Schmidt to work toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all. On the web at theschmidt.org. Thank you. and peace. More information at carnegie.org. It's Consider This from NPR. When Kim Hyun-woo stepped into our studios here in Washington to speak with me through an interpreter, it was the first time he'd ever given an interview. Mr. Kim spent 17 years working for North Korean intelligence at the Ministry of State Security. He defected in 2014 and now lives in South Korea, all of which makes him uniquely placed to offer a glimpse behind the curtain of one of the most isolated countries in the world. So, I ask the question that's always right up front when talking about the United States and North Korea. After years of tension, after talks starting and stalling, does he see a path toward diplomacy between Washington and Pyongyang?

I do have hopes that there could be new changes in the diplomacy between North Korea and United States. What gives you this hope? The source of my hope is that even as we speak, the current both South Korean government and the U.S. government has, despite the situations going on, has been consistent in their stance that dialogue and diplomacy, the door to diplomacy and negotiations with North Korea without condition is always open. And that I find hope that even though obviously right now, the North Korean state has not been responsive to those calls for diplomacy, if South Korea and U.S. continues to open the door and make diplomatic outreach to North Korea, eventually there's going to be a shift in North Korea's response from passivity to more engagement. And that that the possibility of successful negotiations and diplomacy between North Korea, those persistency and patience would eventually bear fruits

and would lead to breakthrough in the diplomatic gridlock. One thing more concrete I want to add is, especially right now when there is a diplomatic stalemate at the official channels, in order to create a breakthrough, what we need is a two-track diplomacy in which if the official diplomatic channels is missing gridlock, we need to engage in widening opportunities for informal, informal, indirect, private channels of diplomacy. That should be happen in parallel with the official diplomatic channels.

Is that part of what you're doing? Unfortunately, I cannot be involved in informal channels because North Korea view me as a traitor. So they would not want to talk with me ever. What about nuclear weapons? The U.S. has tried and tried to get North Korea to walk away from its nuclear weapons program. Do you see any scenario in which they would?

I think it will be difficult to accept. Because my view is that it is very difficult for North Korea to agree and implement denuclearization. And the reason is because North Korea's current regime views denuclearization, so giving up the nuclear arsenal, as causing severe risk to their own regime stability and governance over the country. You just told me North Korea sees you as a traitor. Are you a traitor to North Korea?

I wonder when you use that word, what that means to you. Ah. Yes, indeed. That question is really... The question opens up a wound in my heart. From North Korea's regime's perspective, yes, I am a traitor. And from the perspective of my relatives in North Korea, I am a bad person. But yes, for myself, I do not use those labels.

I do not think those labels apply to me. Do you believe you'll ever go home? That's my hope. I always have the hope of one day returning back to my hometown, my home city. 희망은 하고 있는데 현실적으로는 제가 고향 빨리 가게 하는 게 back to North Korea, more so I need, we need support and attention from the United States. For me to one day return back to North Korea, I can only hope to rely on consistent commitment from South Korean government and from United States government. Is there any risk to you or to your family from talking to me, from giving open interviews? 그렇죠. 맞습니다. Yes, it can be.

그래서 제가 사실 이 인터뷰가 가장 부담스러웠었습니다. And to be honest, before coming, yes, I did think about the risk to myself, my own safety and my family's's story in order to protect his safety. Before Mr. Kim left our studios, I did have one last question. You said you wanted to see the White House. Will you get to see the White House? For this week, visiting inside White House, unlikely. So my more realistic, little smaller hope is at least be able to walk in front of the White House where other tourists are and take a self-photo. But for the future trips, I do hope to one day visit inside the White House. This is a very American thing to do, to take a selfie

outside the White House. So you will be in good company. Oh, you're giving me a thumbs up. There we go. Mr. Kim, thank you. Thank you. Kim Hyun-woo, defected from North Korea in 2014, after serving 17 years in North Korean intelligence. This was his first interview. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Kauffman Foundation, providing access to opportunities that help people achieve financial stability, upward mobility, and economic prosperity, regardless of race, gender, or geography.