Consider This from NPR - Benjamin Netanyahu on the Future of Gaza
Episode Date: November 17, 2023In an interview with NPR's Steve Inskeep, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu often referred to post-WW II Germany as a possible road map for what he called the "de-militarizing" and "de-radical...izing" of Gaza. Netanyahu said Gaza needs a new 'civilian government,' but won't say who.NPR National Security Correspondent Greg Myre parses what Netanyahu said in a conversation with co-host Ari Shapiro.Email us at considerthis@npr.orgLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Transcript
Discussion (0)
On Friday morning, my colleague Steve Inskeep, who co-hosts NPR's Morning Edition, spoke
to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
It's been nearly six weeks since the Hamas attack that killed some 1,200 Israelis.
Since then, Israel has bombed and besieged Gaza, saying it seeks to destroy Hamas and
rescue the hostages
it's holding. But Gaza officials say those attacks have killed more than 11,000 people.
Netanyahu talked about a range of issues, but we wanted to focus on one part of the interview,
what the future of Gaza may look like. What do you intend to do with Gaza once
Israeli troops are fully in control on the ground there?
We have two main goals there. One is to prevent this threat from emerging. For that, we need to demilitarize Gaza. And the second thing we have to do is de-radicalize Gaza. It's like, what do
you do when you beat the Nazi regime? Well, you make sure that Germany doesn't arm itself again,
and you also make sure that Nazism is removed.
Same thing you did in the victory against Japan.
You won the victory, but you then also made sure
that there was a cultural change in Japan.
We need a cultural change in any civilian administration in Gaza.
It can't be committed to funding Gaza. It can't be committed to
funding terrorism. It has to be committed to fighting terrorism.
When you say any civilian administration, Prime Minister, that seems to be the question. You've
said you don't want the Palestinian Authority running Gaza, which would be the other major
Palestinian organization other than Hamas. You don't want them running Gaza. Who else is there?
Well, first of all, anyone who doesn't share Hamas's goals and who doesn't share Hamas's inculcation of teaching children, Palestinian children, that Israel has to be destroyed.
And that's their goal in life. I mean, that's what the Palestinian Authority is doing in the West Bank.
It's teaching children, Palestinian children, that Israel has to be annihilated. They pay for slay. They pay the families of terrorists
for the murder of Jews. And the more Jews they murder, the more they get paid.
This is not the people who can work for peace. And, you know, almost 40 days have passed,
and the Palestinian leadership of the Palestinian Authority, President Abbas,
has yet to condemn this savagery.
Consider this. Prime Minister Netanyahu often referred to post-World War II as a possible
roadmap for what he called demilitarizing and de-radicalizing Gaza. Coming up, we'll
have more of that interview and also get some context from our national security correspondent, Greg Myrie.
From NPR, I'm Scott Detrow. It's Thursday, November 17th.
Hey, it's Scott. Before we get back to the episode, I want to tell you about another podcast that I also host. It's brand new.
It's called Trump's Trials.
It's a weekly show, and the goal is to tell you everything you need to know about what happened that week
and all of the sprawling civil and criminal cases that Donald Trump is facing as he runs for president again.
The plea deals, the testimony, the gag orders.
What you need to know about all of it in about 15 minutes.
Trump's Tri trials. Find it
and follow the show for new episodes each Saturday. All right, thanks. Now back to today's episode of
Consider This. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. We're going to return to my colleague Steve Inskeep's interview with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Throughout the interview, Netanyahu repeatedly brought up the Allied response to Nazi Germany as a model for Israel in Gaza.
And Steve picked up on that thread.
The question, of course, is the United States ended up keeping troops in Germany for generations.
That's where you're heading here with Gaza? Well, I'm not sure of keeping troops inside. And in fact, it's not particularly
necessary. Gaza is very small. So the overriding military responsibility has to be with Israel for
the foreseeable future. Because once you eliminate Hamas, and we have to eliminate Hamas, we have to
beat these barbarians, otherwise this evil will spread, and it is a great danger to everyone. But once we defeat Hamas, we
have to make sure that there's no new Hamas, no resurgence of terrorism. And right now,
the only force that is able to secure that is Israel. So for the foreseeable future,
Israeli overall military responsibility. But there also has to be a civilian government there.
But you haven't said who that civilian government would be, sir.
Well, I think I know who it can't be.
It can't be people who are committed to funding terrorism and inculcating terrorism.
Let me say this, though.
Very briefly, sir.
You had this, we can give Gaza a different future.
You say, how will this generation have a different future? Just the way the German people had a different future. You say, how will this generation have a different future?
Just the way the German people had a different future,
the Japanese people had a different future,
because you eliminated these toxic regimes, these tyrannies,
these heartless monstrosities, and you replaced them with something good.
And what we need is something that is replaced.
We replace that with something that cares for the future of peace
between Israel and the Palestinians, that cares for the future of peace between Israel
and the Palestinians, that cares to rebuild Gaza, that cares to eliminate this terrorist tyranny that
subjugated the people of Gaza. I think that's the only hope for peace and the only hope for
Palestinians. That was Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep speaking with Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu on Friday morning. NPR's Greg Myrie covers national security and is in Tel
Aviv right now. My co-host Ari Shapiro spoke to him about Netanyahu's interview, about what he said
and about what he didn't say. So many references there to World War II. How well does this
comparison actually apply to the current war? There are really a lot of differences, but actually there's a more recent
Israeli war that does seem very relevant today. Back in 1982, Israel invaded southern Lebanon to
drive out militant Palestinians who were attacking northern Israel. Now Israel did push out those
Palestinians, but in their place very soon after came the militant group Hezbollah. Israel then found itself stuck in southern Lebanon for 18 years fighting Hezbollah until
Israel unilaterally withdrew in 2000.
Today, Hezbollah is stronger than ever, and it's trading fire with Israel across its
northern border.
Israel does have the region's most powerful military, but it still needs to find political
solutions, and the
Palestinians say that would be statehood. And to that persistent question about what the civilian
government of Gaza would look like, what are the options for who can run Gaza? Well, in short,
Israel just hasn't provided an answer. You heard Prime Minister Netanyahu sort of evading Steve's
question there. Netanyahu says Hamas will never be allowed to run Gaza again.
He also says he doesn't want the Palestinian Authority to run Gaza.
The Palestinian Authority runs the West Bank, but it's ineffectual and unpopular,
and it even says it won't go to Gaza on the back of an Israeli tank.
Ultimately, a political solution will involve Palestinians
ruling Gaza, but Netanyahu seems to be ruling out the options that exist today.
Well, whether or not the leader of Israel's government is willing to spell it out in an
NPR interview, what does Israel seem likely to do? What are they likely to be planning right now?
So we've spoken to a lot of Israeli officials, and there's kind of this vague talk about having the international community come in and perhaps be part of some transitional phase.
But outsiders just haven't shown any interest in running the territory.
Arab countries don't want to come into Gaza and serve as an enforcer.
The United Nations does things like provide food and health care and
schooling, but it simply isn't equipped to govern. So for Israel, the real risk is getting stuck in
Gaza, even if it decides at some point it wants to leave. And Netanyahu did not say a lot about
the humanitarian situation. Can his government continue to resist international pressure as
conditions in Gaza grow even more dire?
This is going to be very hard because of these daily images of the very real Palestinian hardship in Gaza.
Already more than 11,000 are dead, tens of thousands wounded, according to Gaza officials.
Food and water are increasingly hard to find.
The World Food Program says Gaza is just getting a tiny fraction of the food it needs.
There's a fuel shortage that's shutting down water systems, communications, hospitals.
You see images of people burning wood in the street just to cook a meal.
Israel is now going to allow enough fuel for the UN to run sewage and desalination plants.
But this kind of piecemeal
approach is not going to solve the larger crisis. So no matter what happens on the battlefield,
Israel is going to face sustained pressure to do more, much more, to deal with the humanitarian
crisis. That's NPR's Greg Myrie speaking earlier with my co-host Ari Shapiro.
It's Consider This from NPR.
I'm Scott Detrow.