Consider This from NPR - Big law in Trump's crosshairs

Episode Date: April 12, 2025

For weeks, President Trump has been targeting certain law firms with executive orders. Some have fought back, but others have cut deals to avoid the damage. For our weekly Reporter's Notebook series, we dive into this legal drama with NPR's Justice Correspondent Ryan Lucas, to see how this use of executive power is changing the landscape of the American legal system. For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

On Wednesday in the Oval Office, as markets reeled and a trade war raged, President Donald Trump signed an executive order that had nothing to do with tariffs. There were some very bad things that happened with these law firms. The law firm in question was Sussman Godfrey, but it was only the latest of many to be singled out and targeted by the president. But they don't admit guilt. Remember that they don't admit guilt. The law firms had been guilty of, well...

In the president's telling, these are firms that have basically done things that are against American interests, that harm the United States. That is Ryan Lucas, NPR's justice correspondent. If you talk to people on the other side, the goal, however, is quite different. The law firms that are targeted say that the effort here is to intimidate them, to punish them for the clients that they have represented. One of the clients that Sussman Godfrey represented, for example, was Dominion Voting Systems,

which got a massive settlement from Fox News for its lies about the 2020 election. Other firms had represented Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign or had staff that worked on Robert Mueller's investigation into alleged ties between Trump's orbit and Russia and possible obstruction of justice during Trump's first administration. Now, this work has put them in the crosshairs of the president. Some have fought back. Sussman Godfrey, for instance, has filed a lawsuit to try and block the order. But others have cut deals. On Friday, Trump announced that five more law firms had reached deals with the

administration in order to avoid damaging executive orders. They had agreed to provide hundreds of millions of dollars in pro-bono work for causes that Trump supports. Consider this. President Trump is going after law firms that have opposed him in the past. We will ask what it means for the foundations of the American legal system. From NPR, I'm Scott Detro. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things and other currencies. With WISE, you can send, spend, or receive money across borders all at a fair exchange rate. No markups or hidden fees. Join millions of customers and

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Should you throw out your black plastic cooking utensils? Can we decode whale language? And how do you stop procrastinating? I'm Maiken Scott. Every week, the Pulse digs into health and science issues that matter to you and your life. Listen to the Pulse Podcast from WHYY, part of the NPR Network. It's Consider This from NPR. Every time there's a new administration in Washington, groups line up to challenge its

policies in court. And many of those lawsuits are aided by big law firms offering pro bono work to nonprofits. That has been happening so far during the second Trump administration, but the president's actions targeting law firms is changing that. The administration's attacks on big law firms really create a climate of fear that could deter firms from taking on these very politically sensitive, yet pro-bono cases that are challenging unconstitutional actions right now. That's Lourdes Rosado, the president and general counsel of Latino Justice PRLDEF, a New York-based civil rights nonprofit.

It really does set a very dangerous precedent of political interference in the legal profession. In other words, if law firms pull back on pro bono work, there would probably be fewer challenges to potentially unconstitutional actions by the government down the road. So how does this use of executive power change the landscape of the American legal system? Today for our Weekly Reporter's Notebook series, we are going to dive into this evolving story with NPR Justice correspondent Ryan Lucas. I started by asking him about the kinds of ramifications these executive orders have on the firms being targeted. What these executive orders do is a couple things. They differ a little

bit from executive order to executive order, but the main ones that we've seen, suspend all security clearances for employees at the firms, Bar the firm's employees from access to government buildings, government officials, end government contracts with the firms if there are any, and also reassess and ultimately terminate contracts that the firm's clients have with the government. So when firms talk about this having crippling effects on them, they're not wrong.

These are serious limitations for a big law firm that's doing a lot of government related work. The firms that have sued over these executive orders have said that if these executive orders are allowed to stay in place, they're essentially a death knell for their firms. If you're a law firm and you can't meet with government attorneys, or you can't even go into a government building, how are you supposed to appropriately and zealously advocate on your client's behalf, if you have a criminal client and you want to meet with, with prosecutors in order to discuss a potential plea deal, you can't do that.

You can't go into the federal building. Can't go into a federal building. You can't meet with, with DOJ officials. If you represent a corporate client who wants to have a merger, if you want to go talk to government attorneys about this, you can't do that. And so how can you actively and effectively advocate on your client's behalf if you can't do sort of this basic legwork of the legal profession? And so that means that other clients aren't necessarily going to come to you for business.

And it also means that some of the clients that you have may go somewhere else. As you talk to people in the legal community, is there any precedent for what President Trump is trying to do here? What are people comparing this to? How are people framing this when you talk to them? Well, when the first executive order targeting a law firm came down, that was in late February and it was against the firm of Covington and Burling, and it was a pretty narrow executive order. But then we got these other executive orders that were far more sweeping. And I talked to a couple of

constitutional law professors at the time and everyone who I spoke to said, this is just, this is unprecedented. We'd never seen something like this come out of the Oval Office. We've never seen a president take these sort of actions. And everyone who I've spoken to said that this really does hammer away at, chisel away at the very foundations of how the American legal system is supposed to work. Matthew 20 We haven't even gotten to one of the big storylines in what's going on here. And that's the different ways these big law firms have responded. You talked about several that have filed lawsuits trying to block this that are fighting back. A big storyline here is that several big law firms haven't fought back. They've cut deals with the Trump

administration. What agreements are being reached and how are people in those law firms responding when you talk to them? Well, actually, there are nine firms at this point, including five just on Friday, that have cut deals with the president to try to either get out from being targeted by an executive order or to avoid the possibility of a punitive executive order. The first firm actually to cut a deal was Paul Weiss, a big New York based firm, very prestigious, largely linked to Democrats. There are a number of former Biden administration and Obama administration officials who work at the firm. The deal that they cut, the first one was to provide

$40 million worth of pro bono legal services to causes that both the firm and the White House support. And there was a lot of outrage and pushback when Paul Weiss cut this deal. A disappointment that a firm this prestigious and with deep pockets like Paul Weiss had decided not to stand up for the legal profession in the views of many people and instead

to, to cut a deal with the administration. Now eight other firms have since followed suit, including five, as I mentioned just on Friday. Um, but what this, what this all has done, what the president's targeting of law firms has done is really kind of exposed to divide within big law. I remember having conversations with partners in certain law firms where there was a question of whether the legal profession would be able to provide a sort of united front to push back against what universally everyone who I've spoken to has viewed

as an assault on the legal profession. An assault on lawyers. Because lawyers are being punished for doing lawyerly things. For doing their job. Yes. For representing their clients zealously, which is what this whole system is based on. You've been in NPR what, seven or eight years at

this point? Yeah. And over the time that I've known you and worked with you, you have covered a wide range of pretty high wire and pretty tense and at times unprecedented legal stories. You have covered the Mueller investigation. You have covered the House Republican attack

on the Mueller investigation. You have covered the aftermath of the January 6th attack on the Capitol. You have covered the sitting president's son, Hunter Biden, being put on federal trial. All of these different stories that really. Don't forget the special counsel investigations into Trump himself.

Those too. Those too. Yes. How does this fit into all of those other big stories? Does this feel different? What I would say to that is this is not in a vacuum on its own either. This is part and parcel of the sort of attacks

that we're seeing on federal judges, threats against them online, calls from the president and members of his administration to impeach them for rulings that they don't like. I think what sets this apart from some of that other stuff is this is directed from the Oval Office. This is the power of the presidency being used against private actors, essentially accusing them and then judging them guilty of certain things, then using the power of the presidency to punish them. You had a past life where you were a foreign correspondent. Have

you thought about or seen any parallels between the type of stories you covered then and what you're covering right now? So half of my career thus far was as a foreign correspondent in Poland, in Egypt, in Lebanon. It's a very different way of reporting. It's a very different style of reporting. You are focused more on kind of macro level things in trying to explain what's going on half a world away to an audience in the US, covering the justice department, covering stuff in Washington generally, is a much more micro level. It's a different kind of reporting. It takes a different kind of muscle to do.

Yeah. Does that make it harder in a moment like now where there's potentially a big shift happening? Does that make it harder to kind of realize the big shift is happening when you're not doing the big sweepy step back and you're doing the moment by moment updates? I think from a bandwidth level, it's harder. Yes.

Yeah. Because just the pace of the news right now is so intense that it can be very hard to get the daily stuff done and be able to provide the kind of big picture view for people. But I think what's similar in these two, not necessarily in the storylines or in trying to explain stuff, what is similar though, I think is I kind of view my job now as translating a foreign land for people

because the justice system is, is very different. It's, it doesn't function how a lot of people think it does. A lot of times people will, will come to me with, with questions like, oh, can they do this? Oh, why did this happen? And often it's just like, it's kind of an arcane judicial procedure.

And so explaining sometimes to people trying to translate what's going on in this weird judicial system with lawyerly language and trying to translate that into the way that normal people speak and what makes sense to them, I think is a big part of my job. I remember a moment where you were doing that live on the radio.

I was part of that coverage as well when the Mueller report was released and we were parsing this long legal document live and trying to do that translation in real time. Sometimes we succeeded, sometimes we didn't. We still had nightmares of that day. That was NPR's justice correspondent, Ryan Lucas. This episode was produced by Noah Caldwell. It was edited by Adam Rainey and Courtney Dornig. Our executive producer is Sammy Yandega.

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