Consider This from NPR - BONUS: Rapper Mac Phipps, After 20 Years In Prison, Is One Step Closer To Freedom

Episode Date: March 15, 2021

In this episode from NPR's Louder Than A Riot, New Orleans rapper Mac Phipps speaks exclusively to NPR about the power dynamics at play throughout his clemency hearing, and hosts Sidney Madden and Rod...ney Carmichael examine how his hip-hop career continues to affect his image in the eyes of the law. Find more episodes of Louder Than A Riot on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation, working toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all on the web at theschmidt.org. Hey, Ari Shapiro here. It's Sunday, which means we have a bonus episode for you. It's a story about Mac Phipps, the New Orleans rapper and one-time star on Master P's No Limit Records, who wound up as a convicted felon for a crime he says he didn't commit. NPR's podcast, Louder Than a Riot, unraveled that story last year. They investigated how Mac's lyrics were used to prosecute him, despite a lack of physical evidence and the fact that someone else confessed to the crime.
Starting point is 00:00:45 Well, now there's a new twist. After serving 21 years and one day, Mack's case went before the Louisiana Clemency Board, and his hip-hop career was essentially put on trial again. The hosts of Louder Than a Riot, Sidney Madden and Rodney Carmichael, take it from here. Heads up before we begin. This podcast is explicit. Hey, y'all, it's Rodney.
Starting point is 00:01:14 And Sydney. And we're back for a special episode of Louder Than a Riot to catch you up on the case of McKinley Mack Phipps, one of the artists we profiled in season one of our show, who spent the last 21 years incarcerated. Mack was an artist on the No Limit label when he was convicted of manslaughter in connection to a nightclub shooting back in 2000, a crime he and many others say he didn't commit. But you got to know Mack's story in order to understand why his conviction was so tragic. And it all starts with Mack as a hip-hop prodigy growing up in New Orleans.
Starting point is 00:01:50 He was always like the best freestyler in the city. Mack was kind of like New Orleans version of Nas. His flow, the intelligence that he had behind his rhyme. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was very thoughtful. It was very profound. And the next thing we know, Mack getting signed to No Limit. Mack was probably one of the best artists ever came to no limit.
Starting point is 00:02:32 He was talking about murder, murder, kill, kill. Like, dude, like, what you doing? We did a few shows at the club Mercedes had. It was getting later in the night. People were getting a little rowdier. I remember the fight broke out on dance floor. And the next thing you know, it was like a pow. The person to be interviewed is McKinley J.
Starting point is 00:02:52 Fifth. What kind of performance did you do? I rapped. You a rap singer? Yeah. They thought you was a damn gun in your hand. Shooting people? Nah, I didn't shoot anybody. I know that his music got him incarcerated, but they got the wrong guy. I think they leaned on the stage name, Mac the Camouflage Assassin, because it was so easy.
Starting point is 00:03:13 An easy way to scare the jury, to turn a person into a monster. The whole thing, looking back at it, was a sham trial from beginning to end. My thought, justice will prevail. I was sadly mistaken. Live my life again. To be outside these walls and not be bound by the limitations of this place. That'll be justice for me. Now, our episodes on Mack's case last year uncovered corruption, witness tampering, and, of course, rap lyrics on trial. And when we ended our investigation, it was looking like Mack could end up spending another nine years in prison. But at the beginning of this year, after Lou than a riot wrapped our season, something changed.
Starting point is 00:04:10 After 21 years in prison and one denied appeal after the other, Mack was granted a new hearing that could mean early, almost immediate release. I understand that both you and your lawyer deny that you were the person that actually committed this crime. Is that right? Yes, sir. In this bonus episode of Louder Than a Riot, Mac Phipps gets to make his case again. But this hearing right here, it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. It really doesn't have to do with justice or innocence. It really doesn't have to do with justice at all. It's about going home for the first time in 21 years, even if it doesn't mean clearing his name. Not yet. For the first time ever, after all our requests to interview
Starting point is 00:04:58 Mack were denied by the warden time and time again, we finally get to talk to Mack himself. Man, I'm excited to talk to Mac himself. Man, excited to talk to you. Thank you for calling, man. Oh, man, appreciate it. I think I'm kind of excited, too. I'm kind of calm, but I'm excited. I'm Rodney Carmichael.
Starting point is 00:05:18 I'm Sydney Madden. And this is a special episode of Louder Than a Riot. Where we trace the collision of rhyme and punishment in America. McKinley was actually the one that filed it on his own without an attorney, which was pretty impressive. That's Angelique Phipps, Mack's wife, walking us through Mack's appeal for clemency, a type of petition which would commute his sentence and grant him early parole. It's really kind of an arduous application process.
Starting point is 00:05:52 Like, it's 18 to 25 pages, I think. Mac turned in his application way back in 2018, which was actually his second time filing for clemency. Mac's first request in 2016 was denied, so the stakes? They were high this time. In order to even submit an application, you gotta jump through a whole lot of hoops beforehand. You need to maintain a clean disciplinary record for two years. That means no write-ups. And the law even required Mack to post a classified ad in the parish where he was convicted to alert that community that he was applying for clemency, in case anyone wanted to contest it.
Starting point is 00:06:31 But Angelique says Mack was dedicated and deliberate, despite her own anxieties. It's frustrating because at any point during that process, they can say no. Like, they can change their mind. Mack's dad, McKinley Phipps Sr., he's felt the same frustration. Throughout all these years, all these appeals and everything, I'm used to bad news. You know, I'm used to getting rejected, so I got to basically numb myself. I try to not even think about where I was at. Yeah, and McKinley Sr., I mean, he has reason to be numb. As a Vietnam vet raising six kids with his wife in New Orleans' third ward, he was finally getting
Starting point is 00:07:11 to watch his oldest son's career take off, when Mack's conviction in the last two decades washed all that away. These years, it actually changed me. I was like, I was a drunk at one time. I smoked cigarettes incessantly. I mean, pack after pack after pack. I don't smoke anymore. I barely, I drink occasionally, but I barely drank because I said I wanted to be around to be able to do whatever I could to help him. But then in early January of this year, an update came through that gave Mac and Jalik and the whole family some hope. Mac's clemency hearing was finally scheduled. He'd go before the pardon board on February 22, 2021. I told him the night before, I said, you know, as weird as this may sound, it's my life in the balance too tomorrow. And I didn't
Starting point is 00:08:04 sleep a lot. To be honest, I was up and down, up and down, up and down. Now, like most everything in a time of COVID-19, this hearing happened via Zoom. And since pardon hearings are open to the public, we were able to watch it all live. Board members, they were all in their own little squares with the exact same virtual background. Wood paneling, framed by an American flag and Louisiana state flag, and a government crest on the wall. Almost like they were trying a little too hard to make it seem like a normal hearing. But in a sense, it is normal, right?
Starting point is 00:08:46 I mean, these kind of hearings happen every day. And in the past, in order to watch one of them, we would have had to travel all the way to Louisiana, go through security and sit in the room. So it's really part of the legal process that most people never get to see. What makes it abnormal to me is having it on Zoom makes it so widely accessible. Anybody can watch, which in turn
Starting point is 00:09:06 makes it feel even more invasive. Anyway, Mac's fourth on the docket out of nine decisions the board will make today. All right. Thank you, everybody, for being with us this morning. So now, Mr. Phipps, let me ask you to introduce yourself. Tell us your name and your DOC number. I'm McKenzie Phipps. My DOC number is 445656. Okay, so let me introduce the pardon board to you, Mr. Phipps. Of course, Mack is there too, wearing prison blues. And in the background, a warden sits at a table behind him, drinking coffee.
Starting point is 00:09:43 And as we're watching the hearing, we're trying to read the room. Look at their faces for what isn't being said. Mack's parents, Sheila and McKinley Sr., they're sitting at his mother's art studio in New Orleans. They look pretty calm, stoic even. Like they're experts in tempering their own expectations after all these years of disappointments. Behind them are large portraits that Sheila's painted. And then Angelique, she's in another little square. And by comparison, she looks like she's on the edge of her seat.
Starting point is 00:10:16 She takes a nervous sip of water and purses her lips as the hearing begins. All right, Mr. Phipps, you're here this morning and before the pardon board, you're asking for a clemency. You're asking for a commutation of your sentence. A commutation. That means Mack is asking for immediate parole eligibility based on his good behavior in prison. But let's be clear, a commutation is not the same thing as being exonerated for a crime he didn't commit. And the board's not supposed to be retrying his case.
Starting point is 00:10:49 Basically, a clemency hearing, like Angelique and Mac's dad told us, is similar to a parole hearing just happening ahead of schedule. The board reviews all the same docs and asks all the same kind of questions. Has this person served enough time? Does their good behavior demonstrate that? Is this person safe enough to be back on the street? Mr. Phipps, I've got a few questions I'm gonna ask you. How old are you now? 43. Okay, and you've been in prison for how long?
Starting point is 00:11:18 21 years and one day. I understand that both of you- One of the board members, Tony Marabella, who most recently served as a drug court judge, he was assigned to do a deep dive into Mack's case. He's the one asking most of the questions, and he presents the advantages and disadvantages of Mack's potential release to the rest of the board. And the thing to remember in this situation is that the board has all the power.
Starting point is 00:11:42 They can ask Mack pretty much anything they want. They start off with a more expected line of questioning about Mack's behavior in prison. Tell me what you've done while you've been in prison. Tell me some of the programs that you've done while you've been in prison. Well, I've taken quite a few programs. I've done anger management.
Starting point is 00:12:02 I've done parenting. I've taken college courses. Got an HVAC degree. I've been a mentor. I've done parenting. I've taken college courses. Got an HVAC degree. I've been a mentor, a certified mentor. But then there's a couple exchanges, specifically between Mac and Tony, that feel out of the ordinary in a very specific way. Now, there is a picture in your file. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. In my file? Yes, sir. A photograph of you.
Starting point is 00:12:28 I'm aware of it. You're aware of that picture? Yes, sir. That picture in his file is from 2019, when fellow Louisiana rapper Kevin Gates paid a visit to the prison where Mack was serving time, along with his friend Corey Miller, better known as former No Limit label mate C-Murder. Kevin, he wanted to meet them. Let's talk about that a little bit. Did you do anything wrong? No, sir. I was actually at work, and a warden called my job and told me to go to the building. I had never met the young man before.
Starting point is 00:13:04 I had actually met him that day, and I was basically informed that I needed to go to the building. I had never met the young man before. I had actually met him that day, and I was basically informed that I needed to go to that building. And that's where I went. Kevin, Mac, and C, they all sat down at a table at the prison's visitation room, started chopping it up. Somebody snapped a picture of them. And while Mac and C are turned to the camera, Kevin Gates whips out racks of cash and fans it in front of his face.
Starting point is 00:13:27 That photo ended up on social media. And because it's against the rules to take that much cash in as a visitor, Kevin got banned from the prison. It became the only red flag in Mack's file. While it's true, you may not have done anything wrong. You were in a position where you could get in trouble for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I agree. See, I disagree. I mean, this whole thing, even this being on Mac's record at all, like, how is the prison you're sentenced to ever the wrong place at the wrong time?
Starting point is 00:14:02 Right. Especially when the warden told Mac to go meet with him. See, this answer shows how precarious a position Mac is in. I mean, right or wrong, you definitely don't want to find yourself disagreeing with the people who have the power to set you free or send you back. Mm-hmm. And check out where the line of questioning goes next. So, tell me, do you intend to go back into the entertainment business? In some capacity, yes.
Starting point is 00:14:31 That business that you're in has a flair for getting people into trouble or at least getting them put under suspicion. Do you follow what I'm saying? Yes, sir. I agree. At this point, I notice Angelique in that little square. She's pursing her lips. She turns her head to the side for a second. She kind of flips her hair. Clearly, she's frustrated with this line of questioning.
Starting point is 00:15:01 Talking to her later, she told us that was a total curveball. That part was a little scary, to be honest. Yeah, but in the moment, Mac played it cool. Well, I think at 43 years old, my approach to, you know, that business is pretty different. And, you know, my capacity is probably more on the musical side of it rather than just, you know, being out front and entertaining. I think I've gotten a little too old to be the out front man at this point. It's interesting, though, right? I mean, the same way his music was used against him 21 years ago. You can hear it happening again in this hearing.
Starting point is 00:15:43 Yup, you can't make this up This is part of the criminalization of hip-hop That shaped so much of Mack's trial back in the day And so much of our first season It's an indictment of rap It shows you, those who have the power They're on the same time they've always been on Yeah, Mack, man
Starting point is 00:16:01 He practically has to distance himself from the music In order to be fit for release in the eyes of the law. After the questioning is through, people can speak in support or opposition of Mack's clemency. His mom, Sheila, dad, McKinley Sr., and wife, Angelique, they all speak to his good character. Mack's warden says he's a quote-unquote model offender. And get this, even the current assistant district attorney, who was there on behalf of the family of the shooting victim, and who represents the same office that put Mac away all those years ago, he didn't have a bad thing to say about Mac.
Starting point is 00:16:37 I'll state the obvious. He is not an ordinary offender. He is obviously intelligent and thoughtful. He is very clearly a talented musician. He's got no prior criminal record. He's got no write-ups in prison. You know, to the extent that a model offender exists, he is one. Now finally, Mack Phipps, a wordsmith by trade, is given a chance to speak. But he can't really find the words. He even gets a little choked up. Mr. Phipps, is there a statement you'd like to make before we vote? This was weird as I've actually thought about what I would say for about 10 years. And I just want to say that I thank you all for this opportunity, no matter how it goes. That's it.
Starting point is 00:17:28 All right. Thank you, sir. Normally, this is the time that each of the five members on the board would, one by one, vote on commuting Mack's sentence. Mr. Marabella, are you prepared to vote? Madam Chairman. But that doesn't happen. Tony Marabella, the board member who had asked Mack about his music career, he interjects. I'd like to move to go into executive session. All right.
Starting point is 00:17:56 Do we have a second? We have a second by Mr. Jones. So we have a motion and a second for executive session. Could we get a roll call vote, please? Ms. Renalda? please? Mr. Nelson? Yes. Mr. Roche? So you hear the roll call that's going on.
Starting point is 00:18:14 Well, right after that, the Zoom call that was filled with all these faces from the board, Mac, his family. Yes. Okay, folks, we'll be in executive session to discuss confidential matters. We'll be back shortly. It goes blank. And just like that, the public session to discuss confidential matters will be back shortly. It goes blank. And just like that, the public session goes private. When they called the executive committee, my heart dropped.
Starting point is 00:18:35 It really did. You know, it's like, here's this person that has done absolutely everything right. His character speaks for himself. You know, when they had that pause, I was like, oh my God, here we go. Now, we have no way of knowing what the boy talked about, but there's a lot of different possibilities. The photo with Kevin Gates, Mac's future plans in hip-hop, or even the fact that he's maintained his innocence this entire time.
Starting point is 00:19:10 Then there was also the elephant in the room, something that never explicitly came up in the hearing. All the reporting on Mac's story. It was hard to imagine that our deep dive into Mac's case and all the reporting from David Lohr and others over the years totally flew under the radar of the board. Let's recap. First, there was the obvious prejudicial use of Mack's lyrics in trial. We reported on how the St. Tammany district attorney, the guy whose office prosecuted Mack, he later went to prison for corruption himself.
Starting point is 00:19:40 We also uncovered allegations of corruption in the local sheriff's department. Now, the sheriff who ran the office at that time denies those allegations. And then there were new witnesses who claim Mack is innocent. So yeah, we wondered if the board went confidential to talk about just how denying Mack's clemency might look in light of all of this. The board ends up convening in private for five minutes, five nerve-wracking minutes, especially for anybody close to Mac. Please, Lord, just let us get something positive out of this situation. That's what I was thinking. Please, God, don't let these people say no, because it won't make any sense at all. And then, just as fast as their little Zoom squares disappeared,
Starting point is 00:20:26 the board members returned. All right, I think we're all back in the room. Looks like it. So we'll reconvene our regular session, and we'll vote, and we'll start with Mr. Marabella. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. Mr. Phipps, I have reviewed your record. Now it looks like the board is ready to vote. Mr. Phipps, it would be my vote today to grant you immediate parole eligibility. One vote for yes, one board member down. Then the second vote is yes too. But then the third board member,
Starting point is 00:21:03 he almost seems like he's on the fence. I am saying this. There's a lot of stuff there that I looked at, and I just didn't know exactly what was going on. I'm not here to retry the case, but today I consider you very lucky. Yeah, this is one of those moments that really stands out for Angelique. Lucky for spending 21 years behind bars, really? I mean, it's frustrating.
Starting point is 00:21:29 You know, it's frustrating. But ultimately, the third board member, he votes yes, too. And the last two, yes and yes. Matt gets something he's never gotten before, a unanimous vote. So on your behalf, we'll make the recommendation to Governor Edwards that your sentence be commuted and that you be immediately parole eligible. Good luck to you, sir. I thank you all and thank you all for this opportunity. And this is the moment the tension finally lifts from the faces of Mack's family. Now pending approval from the governor and a hearing to iron out the terms
Starting point is 00:22:05 of his 10-year parole sentence, it's looking like Mac will finally be released. Over Zoom, we see Mac's head drop to his hands. His face goes just out of the frame. It felt like relief. You know, it was like I was trying to hold it together. I saw McKinley, you know, starting to tear up. Good luck to you. Thanks, everybody, for your participation today.
Starting point is 00:22:32 And I think that concludes our business at Lafourche. We'll adjourn from there. It's 11-17. I saw his dad just kind of lose it, and then it was a wrap for me. Yeah, his dad, man. That's the little Zoom square I just could not keep my eyes off of. I know, right? His dad is sobbing. Mac's mom embraces him.
Starting point is 00:22:56 As two decades of despair, disappointment, and fear, they start to melt away. I was actually crying tears of joy. You know, that came from my soul. Because at last, I couldn't believe that all of these people agreed to give my son a chance to return back to normality. But just as I cried tears for my son, I cried tears for Baron Victor, too, the kid that got killed. I, you know, I can't imagine how his parents must have felt.
Starting point is 00:23:38 How long do you feel like those tears have been welled up inside you? Oh, a year, 20 21 years, to be exact. 21 years, to be exact. Hello? Hey, Mac. Thanks for calling back. For the last few weeks, Mac's been on work release,
Starting point is 00:24:02 serving out his sentence at the Lafourche Transitional Work Program, where he does construction work release, serving out his sentence at the Lafourche Transitional Work Program, where he does construction work at a local shipyard. So we had to arrange a time to talk to him, enroll in the Department of Corrections phone system, and have him call us. Well, congratulations, first off, man. I mean, I don't even know if that's the right word after 20 years, but I feel like something needs to be said in terms of the hearing last week. Oh, man, I appreciate it. And it was actually 21 years and one day to be exact.
Starting point is 00:24:33 Yeah, I remember you saying that in the hearing. Like, have you always been aware of how many days down to the day, how long you've been in the whole time? Unfortunately so, yeah. When we first started working on Louder Than a Riot, one of the first stories we really dug into was Mac's. He's been in prison for so long. And we dove so deep into his story, it's like we really got to know this man.
Starting point is 00:25:00 We've tried multiple times in our reporting, for years, to talk to him. But we were always denied. So this is the first opportunity we ever had to hear about Mac from Mac. About a week after the hearing, we got that phone call. And man, I wanted to talk to Mac about so much stuff. But we started with the hearing. I wanted to know if he felt like he had to hedge his answers, especially the questions that seemed to put Mac's relationship with hip-hop back on trial again. No, no, not at all. Not at all. I literally answered the questions the way I would have answered them 20 years ago.
Starting point is 00:25:40 It's just I was so nervous because I guess for me it was more, you know, as I've expressed before, just my family, you know, being there. And over these years, there have been so many disappointments, so many disappointments. And, you know, I just was like, man, I couldn't bear another disappointment. While Angelique was losing sleep the night before, Mack lost something else. He couldn't find the speech he'd written years ago, in hopes that this day might come. It was weird because I've been preparing all of these years what I would say at the hearing. But when that time came, I kind of froze up. I didn't know what to say.
Starting point is 00:26:20 It was like, it was kind of overwhelming. So what was your reaction when the vote came down? I don't know if I even remember hearing the last two people voted because I was already into it. Did it feel real in that moment? Yeah, it kind of felt surreal, as you would say. I was like, so this is actually happening. Surreal. Kind of like how he couldn't believe the sentence he received all those years ago.
Starting point is 00:26:51 Yeah. And remember how he talked about it in that old interview? That's always stuck in my head. Just listen. Angry. I was angry with God more than anything. I was angry. I was like, dude, how could you do this to me?
Starting point is 00:27:05 You know? And I think that night I didn't believe than anything. I was angry. I was like, dude, how could you do this to me? You know? And I think that night I didn't believe in anything. I didn't believe in people no more. I didn't believe in the system anymore. I didn't believe in nothing. Everything was just dark. I had to ask him about it. You talk about being mad at God after the judge handed you your 30-year sentence on that very day. Right. How did you restore your faith and how has your relationship with God changed since the day that you received that sentence? Now, it's weird because, you know, my faith is something that I rarely ever talk about. But I would say this. It was restored, like, right after that.
Starting point is 00:27:49 I was upset that night. You know what I mean? It was like one of them kids, like, yeah, I threw my little fit. I'm mad, mad with you. Then it was like, all right, I understand now. I'm cool. You know, just like I always believed that the best was yet to come. You know, I always have faith that best was yet to come.
Starting point is 00:28:09 I always have faith that good things are always around the corner for me, and it's been that way throughout my life. When you say you understand, what was it that you came to understand so quickly, even after all of this? One of the things that stuck out in that moment was like, okay, if you was willing to accept the highs of life, I traveled the world, I did a lot of things at 23 and over that a lot of people dreamed of. I was like, who am I not to accept the lows?
Starting point is 00:28:32 I just got to deal with it. And that's basically the conclusion I drew, and I rode with it. You know, I think the hardest thing for me to understand about how you've carried this is also what feels like probably one of the most admirable things about you and that's um the responsibility that you've taken for the environment that led to the death of baron victor jr that night in club mercedes you know even while maintaining your innocence right um why do you feel the need to to take so much personal
Starting point is 00:29:03 responsibility for for how that happened and for what happened? At the end of the day, you know, this young man lost his life. You know, there's a family that's grieving and, you know, that and many of them have probably have some ill feelings toward me. And those feelings are justified because, you know, I wasn't able to prove that i didn't you know commit this crime in court this whole journey i wanted to prove to that young man's family like listen i really didn't kill your son in fact i didn't even meet him for me it was more of like a personal thing like what responsibility do you have in this situation mckinley is what i had to ask myself and i was like well man there are some decisions that were made that I think if they
Starting point is 00:29:47 were made differently, this whole, the whole sequence of events that eventually led to this young man's demise wouldn't have happened. Are you talking about just the physical environment in terms of the club where you held the event? Or are you also talking about the music you made and the kind of energy it attracted? No, no, not the music at all. Just like I should have had real security guards in there. That is the bottom line.
Starting point is 00:30:14 I should have probably hired the cops to be there, and I didn't. I made some decisions that those type of decisions is what I believe led to an out-of-control environment. Remember, Mack's brother and Thomas Williams, the man who later confessed to shooting Baron Victor Jr., they were his higher security that night. But Mack saying he wished he'd hired cops is just so ironic, considering what we found out about the sheriff's office at St. Tammany Parish at the time. So how much control would he have had if it went down that way? Yeah, and on top of that,
Starting point is 00:30:50 that out-of-control environment that he's describing, it was exactly what his former label boss, Master P, was only reason I'm telling you this, nigga, is because I care about you. I won't see you bald till you fall, nigga, but you know what? You know what come with motherfucking money and fame? Motherfucking enemies and niggas hate. You see, you rich now, nigga, but dead men can't spend no motherfucking money. But it's one thing to warn someone of danger.
Starting point is 00:31:23 It's another to blame them for the dangerous things that are happening around them. I don't know if you got to hear our interview with Master P and what he had to say about your case, but, man, it really surprised me. He'll tell you, I love him, but I told him, I say, if you get caught up in anything, then I'm not coming to see you. I'm not dealing with that. That's on you. And he was like, all right, boss, I'm gone. And that's how it went. Were you surprised at how he, you know, responded to what happened to you? I mean, you know, you are an artist on his label and you get caught up in this situation.
Starting point is 00:32:07 Well, I'm going to say this. You know, because everybody's entitled to the way they feel. And, I mean, he's as entitled to the way he feels as anyone else. And, you know, he had expressed to me, you know, before that, you know, he basically had a problem with me doing some of these smaller clubs. He did. And that's that. In a lot of ways, you've kind of distanced yourself from the image that you portrayed during your No Limit years. I spent a lot of time listening to your No Limit discography. And, you know, really like in hindsight, it's really
Starting point is 00:32:46 not as gangster as a lot of the music that define that gangster era, you know? Right, right. Like I hear so much like resistance and spirit of resistance in like a lot of songs from back then, like The Cops and Robbers join, and especially
Starting point is 00:33:01 stuff on that second that second LP. Is it harder for you to embrace that music like just because of the way that the prosecutors like contorted it and twisted it and used it against you? Um that's it man that's a good question. For a while, it had me at a point where I really couldn't listen to it because it brought back the trial. It brought back the way that my words were used against me. For me, it was unfair because I think it was used because there was a lack of any evidence.
Starting point is 00:33:52 But I guess what really bothered me more than anything is the fact that this is hip-hop, man. This is art. You know, I rap about things that I've seen. Sometimes I just made up stories. I mean, because, I mean, at the end of the day, this is entertainment, you know? Yeah. So, and to have this used against me, it was like, wow, man, you know? Man, it is so sad that he couldn't even listen to his own stuff. It's tainted for him because it was used to vilify him.
Starting point is 00:34:20 Not to mention to convict him. Will you perform any of your No Limit era music? Even like if fans request that kind of stuff? Yeah, I don't have any, I don't regret anything, you know, any music I've made. You know, I was 22 years old.
Starting point is 00:34:38 You know what I mean? So, I mean, if I were to regret or take back some of the music I've made, then I would have to take back myself. Those things were part of me. Now, you can't talk about Mac's No Limit era without mentioning Corey Miller, a.k.a. C-Murder, don't break it. You want love, let's make it. I just can't wait till you naked. You lift your lips, it makes me hard.
Starting point is 00:35:05 They dreaming and screaming and fiending. You creaming for sex? That you gonna get dizzy, girl. Wobble, wobble. Let me see you shake it, shake it. Now won't you drop it, drop it. Ooh, take it, take it. Now won't you wobble, wobble.
Starting point is 00:35:16 Let me see you shake it, shake it. Now won't you drop it, drop it. Love, take it, take it. We the 504 boys. Now he and Mack, they share a lot more in common than being former label mates. For the last several years, they were inmates inside the same prison, Elaine Hunt Correctional. Remember that photo with Kevin Gates that the pardon board was talking about? Corey Miller was in it too.
Starting point is 00:35:39 And the separate murder cases that landed Mack and Corey in prison are also very similar. Both were nightclub shootings. Both had witnesses who recanted testimony. Murder cases that landed Mack and Corey in prison are also very similar. Both were nightclub shootings. Both had witnesses who recanted testimony. Mm-hmm. And both of them were convicted by split juries, a practice that was only legal in two states at the time and has since been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Did doing these last several years with Corey Miller,
Starting point is 00:36:05 you know, your old friend, your old label mate, make the time any easier for you? Well, actually, it was bittersweet because, you know, Corey is like a brother to me. And, you know, I've always felt... How do I say this? I've always been more concerned about his situation than mine because I always knew that I actually had an out date. Whereas, you know, he actually has a life sentence.
Starting point is 00:36:40 So I've always been more concerned about his situation than my own. And being around him, we had the opportunity to reminisce together, to talk about old times and to, you know, laugh about things that happened or whatnot. Would y'all ever talk much about, like, how eerily similar y'all's cases are? Believe it or not, we didn't talk much about the cases. It was like, it was one of the things that we just understood we knew, you know what I mean? What did y'all understand you know like we we understood that we both had like traveled the same road we both had been um you know we had been down the same dark road you know and so many no limit artists actually you know ended up you know facing a fate that led to prison time. Obviously, you and Corey Miller, Kane and Abel brothers.
Starting point is 00:37:29 Do you think that the label or even artists on the label were targeted by law enforcement? At some point, I think they were. I think we were, rather. At some point, I think we were. Why do you say that? Not why. I have we were. Why do you say that? Not why. I have no idea, but I do know at some point we were. I mean, I remember being stopped by some police one time,
Starting point is 00:37:53 and they were searching my car, and they were, like, saying something to the effect, like, I know y'all are doing this, I know y'all are doing that, and I'm going to make sure we get you, you know, and I'm just, like, looking like, man, this is a routine traffic stop. This is crazy. You know what I mean? So I do know that at some point we were targeted.
Starting point is 00:38:14 There are reasons for targeting. They can probably tell you better than me. And, of course, potential targeting is just one of the things that people point to in terms of injustices in Mack's case. Well, that's the interesting thing about this clemency, right, is that it stops short of, you know, saying that you're innocent. It's not a pardon, right? But I'm curious, like, what is more important to you at this point? Is it being free or is it being absolved of the crime altogether? Yeah, being free.
Starting point is 00:38:49 At this point, man, it's like I need to be with my family. My parents are getting older. I miss them so much. I miss 21 years of my son's life. I'm faced with having to get to know him all over again, him getting to know me. You know, because this is a grown man that I'm going to face when I get out of here. This is not a kid, you know.
Starting point is 00:39:10 And I miss my, you know, my siblings. You know, I want to go spend time with my wife and my stepkids. And those things are probably more important to me than anything else. How hard is it having to sacrifice one for the other, though? Man, I think after doing 21 years in prison, it's a no-brainer. I'm telling you, it's a no-brainer.
Starting point is 00:39:38 Yeah. Like, you want this, you want the man, I want out of jail. I don't. You know what I mean? I hear you. You get to the project, like, we only got so much time on this planet. Ain't got no more time to waste. Let's roll.
Starting point is 00:39:49 Yeah. So now your case is going to the office of the governor. Right. I'm curious, like, what would you say to the governor about the case and what you hope happens? What do you say to a governor, man? That's kind of serious. I guess I would just, you know, I would just plead for opportunity
Starting point is 00:40:13 to show and prove that I can be a productive member of society. I would let him know that I wouldn't let him down. That I would be a very good investment. And that's about it. Like, what will it feel like when you get to finally walk out of those prison doors? Now, this is weird. I don't know, because I ain't never walked out before.
Starting point is 00:40:47 So it's like, I don't know, man. Like, I've heard guys over the years, like, tell me stories about how they felt. You know, guys have been obviously locked up again, and they just tell me how it felt when they left prison. And I just, you know, I always wanted to hear those stories, because they always, like, made me feel good. And now it's like, okay, this is about to happen to me. I don't know what I'm going to do.
Starting point is 00:41:10 I might pass out. Now the world Mack will be walking back into, man, it's changed a lot. I mean, he hadn't seen New Orleans since before Katrina. In the hip-hop universe, it's has changed a lot too. Some of it, Mac's aware of. Other stuff, not so much. He says he avoids listening to the radio on purpose. Same. But he still consumes lots of music on his own. And not just hip-hop. The prison has its own version of iTunes, and he downloads a lot of music from it. He's a big fan of J. Cole and Alabama Shakes.
Starting point is 00:41:46 As for his own relationship with making music, Max says it's still his lifeblood. I'm never going to stop writing, never going to stop playing music. It's just something that I do. I'm a musician, man. I play instruments, so of course I'm going to record, of course, I'm going to record. Of course, I'm going to release stuff. And I mean, how well it do, I don't think about that. You know, that's up to the fans. And if they want it, then I'm going to keep on bringing it. If not, I'm going to move to something else. I ain't going to quit my day job until I know it's solidified. Man, Mac's outlook is so positive.
Starting point is 00:42:24 It's almost like you have to be mad for him yeah but he also made sure to let us know that carrying these last 21 years has been nowhere near as easy as he might make it sound yeah i imagine that that kind of thinking probably made it um more manageable to do 20 years. I imagine if you were the other way, meaning very mad, upset, frustrated, pissed at being in this predicament and being there unjustly. No kidding, too, isn't it? I was pissed. I don't ever want to undermine this and give you the impression that this was easy, you know, because it wasn't.
Starting point is 00:43:04 This is not something easy to deal with, you know, but when you consider yourself a soldier, you meet whatever the task is. And, I mean, I just had to, I had ways that I had to learn how to deal with this. And those ways is what kept me sane throughout these years. So, you know, being optimistic and always looking for, you know, looking for the bright side, as they say, is what kept me going. I promised myself that I wouldn't allow my heart to go black. I didn't want to become a bitter person. So I just made the best of it, man.
Starting point is 00:43:41 Well, it sounds like you did that successfully, man. And I wish all the best to you now, and I hope that the rest of your life is as positive as this experience has been negative. Oh, it will, brother. And when I'm ready to, I got that verse for you, when I'm ready to release it,
Starting point is 00:43:59 I want you to do a story about it. Let's do it. Let's do it. I'm ready. Thank you, man. Thank y'all Let's do it. Let's do it. I'm ready. All right. Thank you, Matt. Well, thank y'all, man. It was good talking to you. Nah, you too, man. We appreciate it.
Starting point is 00:44:10 All right. Peace. Take care. Okay. There's still no guarantees. As of right now, Governor John Bel Edwards' office tells us they haven't yet received Mack's clemency application. But assuming the governor signs those papers and the parole board gets its terms of release together, Mack could be out before the year ends. And clemency might just be the beginning of Mack's journey towards justice.
Starting point is 00:44:41 Remember, there's that Supreme Court case, the one that ruled that non-unanimous juries are unconstitutional, which leaves a big question on the table, whether the ruling applies retroactively to old cases like Mack's. Let's just say it might mean that Mack's name could still one day be cleared. For right now, Angelique is looking forward to just having her husband come home and doing some really normal things. It may sound completely insane, but it's like just little things. Like we can go to the grocery store together, walk the dogs, and just have that part of life that we haven't been able to have. Little things like Mac taking his first trip to Walmart in two decades, since he's been granted
Starting point is 00:45:26 work release. I was messing with him. I said, you know, give it some time. You'll hate it as much as I do. But in that moment, you know, you take into consideration that he hasn't been to Walmart in 20 years. So, you know, he was like, man, it's like a mall, you know.
Starting point is 00:45:42 And I look forward to that, too, just seeing things through his eyes. Yeah, it's kind of the same for Mac's dad, McKinley Sr. I just want us to do normal things, you know, barbecue in the yard, go fishing and stuff like that. You said in the hearing you can't wait to, you want to hug your son again, right? What's that hug going to feel like, that first hug with him? Oh, it's going to be a great hug because, you know, I used to visit him all the time and I'd always hug him before I'd leave the jailhouse.
Starting point is 00:46:11 But, you know, since COVID, what it has been, I haven't been able to hug him in a long time. You know, I haven't been able to hug him in a long time. That's all. Yeah. A father hugging his son after 21 years. It's not exactly justice. Not even close. But it may be the closest Max family gets to it.
Starting point is 00:46:39 For now. This episode was written by us, Rodney Carmichael, Sidney Madden, and the whole Louder Than A Riot team. Our producers are Rachel Neal, Adelina Lansianese, Dustin DeSoto, and Graham Smith. Editing by Robert Little and Terry Samuel. Our engineer is Josh Newell. Letitia Harris, Theo Greenlee, Will Chase, and Michael Ratner contributed to the research and production of this episode. Original music by Casa Overall
Starting point is 00:47:14 and Ramteen Arablui. A shout out to the big wigs, Steve Nelson, Lauren Onke, and Anya Grunman. Special thanks to Jeremy Phipps and the entire Phipps family. Follow us on Twitter. We're at Louder Than a Riot. Rate and review us at Apple Podcasts and email us at louder at NPR.org. For the music you heard in this episode and from our first season, search for the official Louder Than A Riot playlist on Apple Music and Spotify now. From NPR Music, this is Louder Than A Riot. Thank you. upward mobility, and economic prosperity, regardless of race, gender, or geography.
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