Consider This from NPR - BONUS: Wisdom From The Top

Episode Date: October 24, 2021

This episode is from our friends at Wisdom From The Top. From the creator of How I Built This, host Guy Raz invites you to listen in as he talks to leadership experts and the visionary leaders of some of the world's biggest brands. Along the way, you'll hear accounts of crisis, failure, turnaround, and triumph, as the leaders reveal their secrets on their way to the top. These are stories that didn't make it into their company bios, and valuable lessons for anyone trying to make it in business. In this episode: As a child growing up in Ibadan, Nigeria, Dara Treseder was often told to get her head out of the clouds. But her mother encouraged her to dream big and to follow her ambition if it would lead her to contentment. For Treseder, that meant moving across the world to attend both Harvard and Stanford, and chasing a deeply-held desire to make a positive impact on the world. Her career in marketing began with stints at Apple and Goldman Sachs, then, in 2020, she became SVP, Head of Global Marketing and Communications at Peloton. Today, she is one of the most influential marketing leaders of her generation. Listen to more Wisdom From The Top via Apple, Spotify, or Google.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University performs breakthrough research every year, making discoveries that improve human health, combat climate change, and move society forward. More at iu.edu forward. Hey, consider this listeners, Audie Cornish here. It's Sunday, and that means we have a bonus episode for you. It's about how a young girl from Nigeria became the head of global marketing at Peloton and one of the most influential leaders in her field. This story comes from Wisdom from the Top, a podcast that tells stories of crisis, failure, and turnaround through interviews with experts and leaders from

some of the world's biggest brands. Guy Raz is the host of Wisdom from the Top, and he takes it from here. This episode was recorded in 2021. From Luminary, Built It Productions, and NPR, it's Wisdom from the Top. Stories of crisis, failure, turnaround, and triumph from some of the greatest leaders in the world. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, Dara Trasider, SVP, Head of Global Marketing and Communications at Peloton. I want to make an impact. I want to drive change. And what I started to see as I rose in my career was the best way to drive change is not to try to go alone. It's to do it with others.

You're going to be most successful when the best people want to be on your team and want to work with you and want to do things with you. Dara Trasider on making an impact on the world and following her ambitions at Peloton. Peloton was one of the biggest business stories during the pandemic. As gyms closed across the U.S., there was a huge demand for home exercise equipment. And Peloton was perhaps the biggest beneficiary of that surge. Part of the reason is obvious. The company makes good products. But the other part is its branding and image. Peloton instructors have become celebrities in their own right, each with their own following. And one of the key leaders in that branding effort is Dara Trasider. She was recruited to join Peloton in the summer of 2020 after running marketing at GE Ventures and earlier working at Apple.

Her journey into marketing came by way of what she might jokingly call a failed career in finance. Today, she sits on several boards and is widely thought of as one of the most influential marketing leaders of her generation. Her journey to the C-suite and even to the United States was neither planned nor certain. Dara grew up in the city of Ibadan in the southwest of Nigeria. She managed to earn a place at a prestigious boarding school in England and eventually to college in the U.S. And from the start, Dara's family played a huge role in shaping the person she would become. My father is a physicist and a pastor, which is a very interesting combination because he's a man of science and a man of faith.

And my mother is a businesswoman. She kind of started out as an educator and went on, she's very entrepreneurial, to start a bunch of different local businesses. So my parents are, I think one of the things I learned from my parents, they greatly valued education. They didn't have a lot, but they were so committed to making sure that their kids had the very best. I remember there was a time growing up where some kids would make fun of my mom because she literally, they would be like, if you dropped her dress in the middle of the street, they would bring it to your house because she wears the same dress all the time.

But she was, you know, taking, working really hard, putting all the investment into the education of her four children, into trying to make her businesses successful. And I learned so much from both of them about, you know, ambition and contentment and hard work and really trying to create something out of nothing. I'm so interested in the idea that your dad was a man of science and a man of the cloth at the same time, right? Because sometimes those two things can collide, right? Physics and faith. And I think that's just so interesting that he did both. Yeah. It's so funny because to me, I see them as very complimentary, right? Because growing up, it was a deep belief in science

actually strengthened his faith and vice versa. And so to me, I always saw them as not things, they're not mutually exclusive, they're not in opposition to each other, but they're actually complimentary. And I think it's from my upbringing, right? Because it's pretty rare, I think, to have, he's certainly the only physicist pastor that I've spent a lot of time around. And so I very much feel like that. That

was also very grounding because I think one of the things that it taught me is that I can be very open-minded about things. I can explore, I can ask questions, I can be curious. And I can keep searching. I can dig deeper rather than just accept a surface level discussion or surface level debate. How would you describe yourself as a child? Were you focused? Were you well behaved? Were you a good student? Were you all those things? Were you rebellious? You know, in my town and the people who knew me, my family and community, people used to describe me as what they called forward, which was, I'm not sure how much that concept translates here, but it was, I always was, you know, eager and wanted to do more and be more and had very big dreams. And my mother was actually very encouraging because many times people would just be like, oh my God, Dara, like she's just get your head out of the clouds and back on the earth. And my mother actually encouraged me. She was always like,

continue to dream big, you know, but she would also ground me in saying, you know, she said to me all the time, ambition with contentment. So be ambitious, but make sure it's rooted in contentment. Don't seek just, you know, glory, but seek impact. And those have been, you know, things that have really, really shaped me. And so as a child, you know, I was curious about the world around me. And, you know, growing up as a Black girl, you know, many times the people that would be celebrated, you know, on international TV or the things that I saw around the world, it just wasn't a lot of black women. And so I remember when I first learned about the concept of the Fortune 500 and was trying to figure out where the people that looked like me were. And at the time,

the only one I could find was Ursula Burns. And it hit me, you know, and I always thought about, wow, wouldn't it be better if we had more representation and how inspiring that would be for girls like me? And so that desire to impact the world has always been something that I've had even from when I was a child. Was, in terms of sort of global culture and its impact on culture in Nigeria, particularly where you were, did most of it come from the United States or from Europe or from other parts of Africa? Most of it came from the United States when I was growing up, at least most of what I was exposed to. Also from the UK,

because Nigeria is a former colony, a former British colony. So there was a lot of influence from the UK and the US. Those were the predominant sort of, you know, Western forces at play. Also, you know, we were impacted by obviously our neighboring countries in West Africa, like Senegal and Ghana and Ivory Coast. And we also drew on things from South Africa as well. But when I was growing up, there was actually apathy was going on in South Africa. And I very much remember a lot of the conversations that would be had around the dinner table about what was going on and the need for it to end. And also kind of hearing, you know, from my parents and my grandparents about what it was like to be in a colonized country, right? And it was very

interesting because, you know, you could see how colonization had really impacted people and people had different perspectives. But I was, I think that was another force that was definitely very present. It was like, we definitely thought of ourselves, you know, as members of the former British colony, you know, and that was something that was a part of the experience. Did you primarily speak English at home? I did primarily speak, I spoke English and Yoruba. So in Nigeria, there are many, many tribes and I'm part of the Yoruba tribe. We're a fun tribe as we like to think of ourselves. And we like to eat and enjoy life and celebrate. And yeah, so we spoke English and then Yoruba,

because I was very interested in making sure that I retained that part of my heritage. And in terms, like, how would you describe yourself as a student at school? Did school come fairly easy for you? School did not actually come very easy for me at the beginning. But, you know, God bless my wonderful Nigerian mother. She pulled me aside and she said to me one day, because my sister was very what we called naturally gifted, you know, she was very naturally brilliant. She didn't have to work very hard to excel. I, on the other hand, had to work very hard. My mom pulled me aside and she said, Dara, you know what? The reality is you're

going to probably, if you want to be like top of your class, like your sister is, you're going to have to work probably twice, maybe even three times as hard as she is working. But if you do that, you will excel. And so since then, I just have always had this work ethic, right? Of like, I will outwork, I will, you know, give myself to this. I will, I was very focused on achievement. At a certain point, when you were a young woman, you, you went to the UK to go to boarding school for high school. How did that, how did that come about? Tell me the story of how that happened. So my mother, you know, was kind of looking and thinking about higher education. And, you know, my father had actually, he went to do his master's, he had gone to Imperial College

in London. And then if you remember kind of what I said about Nigeria being a former British colony, you know, there was a lot of the idea of going to England for higher education was very much something that had started actually in colonial times and continued even till this day. And so my parents were, you know, wanting to provide the best education for their children, right? Just like people might move neighborhoods to buy a different house to try to get into the better school. My parents were looking at us going to England. And so I actually took a scholarship exam to go to this boarding school. And I got in, but I didn't get the scholarship. And so I was quite distraught, you know, because I knew my parents wanted me to go to the school

and it was going to be a great school and a great experience. But financially, it was really challenging. And even thinking about it right now is just like making me feel so emotional. But my grandfather actually emptied his bank account so that I could have that opportunity. Wow. So my family, my community, so many people rallied around my parents to support them. It was a very difficult time for my parents financially. Because my mom, I told you, was entrepreneurial. And as you know, in the entrepreneurial journey, there are times when it's very challenging. And it was one of those seasons.

And, you know, I think that without the support of family and community, I definitely would not be where I am today because if not for that generosity of people being willing to sacrifice so that I could be here. So I, you know, I think very much I stand on the shoulders of giants. I am a product of my family and the people who made sacrifices and invested in me and believed in me and supported me and gave me opportunities to be where I am. So you, I guess, at the age of, what, 14 or 15, head to the UK? Yeah, I was just turning 16. To a school called the Cheltenham Ladies College, which is for people, it's a very prestigious boarding school, but it's like in a rural, right, part of my class, which was, you know, several hundred people. And I felt it was a shock. It was a culture shock. And I remember every night I would cry and cry and cry. And, you know, my mother was

very understanding, but I think on maybe night six or seven, she literally was like, if you're, if it's so bad, you can come back to Nigeria. And, you know, and, and I think in that moment, I realized like, hey, I gotta make the most of it. And that was when I kind of changed my mindset to, you know, how can I impact this place? And I kind of helped to revive a gospel choir. I love to sing. It's like my hobby. I'm an amateur singer. And so I led the choir. I led the gospel choir and I found so much joy in that singing. And I joined the athletics team. I'm a runner. And so I did that as well. And I obviously threw myself into my academics. And that was actually when I realized I wanted to go to the U.S. because there was something very different about the U.K. that I felt was in the U.S.,

in the United States, the concept around the American dream and the idea that it doesn't really matter who you are, you can accomplish something. And of course, America has a lot of issues to deal with, including systemic racism, which exists everywhere, including the UK. And it's not mutually exclusive, right? That is true.

And America still welcomes people, right? Someone like Barack Obama could be president in this country. Something about the American dream stood out to me in the sense of this country is a place as imperfect as it is, there's beauty in it. And there's a desire to be better. It's uniquely, you know, I was very attracted to that, that desire for self-improvement. We're going to continue to evolve.

We're going to continue to grow. It very much resonated with me. I didn't even know the term growth mindset at the time, but I very much felt that that was present in the United States. And so I wanted to come to the United States for college. And I told my parents I wanted to go to America. And they were, of course, like, absolutely not. It's too far away. You'll never come back.

When we come back in just a moment, how Dara's experiences as a student in the U.S. changed the way she thought about the world and about herself. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to Wisdom from the Top. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. Hey, welcome back to Wisdom from the Top. I'm Guy Raz.

So when we left off, Dara Trasider was in high school in the UK and was dreaming of going to college in the US. And eventually she'd wind up at Harvard, where she says her understanding of her own identity began to evolve. When I was in the UK, you know, I was called black. I was called African. And when the term African was used, it was not positive. You know, I very quickly started to, I experienced, you know, systemic racism. And I'll never forget, even though I had the great grades and I was a well-rounded student, when I went to my tutor and I showed her the colleges I was applying for, and she said, these are really, I mean, difficult schools. Don't you think for someone like you should look at something a little less challenging? And it broke my heart. And I called my mother and she was like, just don't listen to her. The best thing you can do is just continue to try to succeed and continue to try to have impact.

When I got to the United States, the African-American experience has so many dimensions to it. I really spent a lot of time actually learning about it. By the way, was it something, I mean, were you familiar with parts of that story? Yeah, I was familiar with parts of it, but I didn't, I wasn't as familiar with the robustness of it. Right. And I didn't understand all of the nuances until I actually came here. You know what I mean? It's different to read about something and hear about something than to experience it and talk to other people who've experienced it. And so I actually switched my degree. I was initially going to just concentrate

in economics, but I took a class with Professor Evelyn Higginbotham. She was the chair of the African and African American Studies Department at Harvard. And I actually switched my concentration and I focused on that because that was what I found most intellectually stimulating. And I think it's exactly because of what you said. Like I came here and I was finding myself. And as I was reading and learning about these subjects, it was contextualizing a lot of things that I hadn't even thought about. You know, some of the things that had bothered me or impacted me from being someone that came

from a colony where, you know, in my family that was talked about, right? Or how I had experienced systemic racism in the UK and felt very alone contextualizing that. And then, of course, understanding the uniqueness of the African-American experience and what life is like for me. Here I'm a black woman. I'm a black woman in America. I step out of my house. Nobody knows whether I'm from Nigeria or I'm from Brooklyn, you know? And that experience for me, I wanted to really make sure that I understood and had context so that again, I can positively impact my community, right? Which

in America here is the black community here. And so I wanted to make sure that I had a deep understanding and was able to help in my own very small way address some of the issues that needed to be changed. So in sort of a, I mean, you had come to the United States as an African woman only to realize and discover that the United States, that was irrelevant to how you were perceived. A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, there must have been so many dimensions to just that experience. You know, first of all, as a young woman coming to the United States on your own and then, you know, kind of being exposed to all of the things that entail being a black woman in the United States. Absolutely. So colorism exists in Africa.

And it exists, I think, in many parts of the world. And it certainly exists in Nigeria. Like I knew people in my family who had bleached their skin to be lighter. And when you were lighter, you were considered more attractive, you know, more appealing. And in Nigeria, I wasn't light-skinned, but I wasn't dark-skinned. In Nigeria, I was sort of medium.

But when I came to the United States, people described me as dark-skinned. And I remember just taking that in because my sister in Nigeria was described as dark as dark skin. And I remember how people would always, you know, make a comment and I would make me feel a little bit better about myself, which looking back, I just, I, it literally makes my skin crawl, you know, but growing up as a child, it made it seem like, Oh, if you're lighter, you're prettier. And, you know, and I always, I was always jealous. I was never as light as my mother and all these weird things that I never understood. Right. And when I came to the United States and I was described as dark skin, then better understand myself and some of the earlier experiences that I'd had,

things that had made me very insecure about myself being, you know, because again, of racism and colorism. I think what a lot of people don't get is that, you know, that systemic racism is pervasive and it is destructive. And it also exists even in countries that might be predominantly Black. Because of outside social and media influences. Exactly. And historical context, right? You know, Nigeria became independent in 1960. It's not that long ago. You, after you graduated, you went to take a job at Goldman Sachs. And so you had this

incredibly rich experience at Harvard, and you, I guess you took a job in finance, and there's nothing wrong with that. Lots of people do that. It's a really secure path, right? And I'm sure you were particularly attracted to the idea of maybe financial security after, you know, all the sacrifices that were made to get you to the U.S. Is that why you chose to pursue a path of finance? Absolutely. And it was an accidental path, you know? It was almost like I saw that that was what, you know, the kids of parents who were in this country and successful,

they want, you know, all those kids were going into finance. And so, you know, that was like, okay, this is like the thing to do, you know? And it was, again, seeking stability and sort of trying to find a place where I can start to pay it forward, you know, and really seeking that. And again, if I go back to my history, right, my background is, hey, I might not be the smartest person in the room, but I'm going to work really hard and I'm going to make sure that I'm adding value. And so I felt more confident in my ability to be successful in that environment. I read a story about your time there when you were at Goldman Sachs. And there was an executive

there who said, hey, you know, Dara, you know, you're pretty good at investment banking, but you're actually really great at marketing. And initially, when you heard that you were taken aback, you were actually, you were actually hurt by that. Yeah, yeah. It's so funny. I don't even I doubt this person will ever even remember this conversation. It's amazing the impact people can have on your life, right? Through just like a comment. But I was an intern actually at the time and I was going through this rotational program.

And at the end, you would kind of rank what you wanted to do and you would be assigned to, and I was gunning for investment banking, right? That was where you got the big bonus. That was where you, the big bonus. That was where you, the most prestigious, that was kind of what you did. And I remember this executive kind of who was sort of observing the program and getting to know those of us who are in it. And he said that to me, he was like, you know, I feel like marketing is where you really shine. And I was like,

what is this man talking about? This is an investment bank. You know, like nobody comes to an investment bank to be a marketer, you know? And like the CEO of this bank is not a marketer. They're a former banker. And so I had this very sort of narrow perspective, right? And I got home and I called my mom and I was like, can you imagine what this man said to me? And she paused a little bit and she said, well, Dara, I mean, as you've been telling me about your experience, it sounds like marketing, the marketing team there was actually what you really enjoyed. You know, it sounds like you were like really killing yourself in this other area, but like you were

kind of doing it, but you certainly weren't the best there. But it sounds like in marketing, you were shining and you were, you know, and I was like, oh, you know, and I reflected on it. And I kind of made the decision, you know what, I'm going to be in marketing. And I think I realized something about myself, which is I love the creative side of marketing, you know, the storytelling. I start from a data insights driven perspective. How do we create something that connects? When we put out creative in the world that like people resonate with, like, it's like the best feeling for me, right? When a campaign is successful, I love it. I love storytelling. Like I, you know, in my, I'm an amateur singer and songwriter, like in my, in my personal fun life. So the idea to work in a space that's

creative, but guess what? Marketing, there's also the science of it, right? There's a very quantitative side of it and the fact that you can kind of measure your results. And I think I'm happiest when I'm in a world where I'm being ambidextrous. I'm flexing the very data-driven side of myself, but I'm also able to focus on the creative, strategic storytelling aspect as well. On your journey to Peloton, there were a few stops along the way, including an MBA at Stanford. And while you were there, from what I understand, you really kind of caught the startup bug. I did.

I did. It was actually funny because I was doing marketing consulting, you know, which was great because being an MBA costs a lot of money. So anything you can do. Stanford is such an entrepreneurial school. They had these amazing programs that even as an international student, you could, you know, you could get some real hands-on experience, right? Building something and you could get course credit for it and you could do it in a way that, you know, the university really supported you,

which I greatly valued. It was one of the reasons I was so thrilled when I got the opportunity to go to Stanford. And so I was doing that and I still thought, you know what, I'm going to build a tech company, right? Because that's what all, you know, that's what many of the sort of Stanford MBAs were thinking, right? Everybody was like, well, you're going to work on my startup or am I going to build a tech company, right? Because that's what many of the Stanford MBAs were thinking, right? Everybody was like, well, you're going to work on my startup or am I going

to work on your startup? And so I definitely caught the bug and I was really trying to move forward an idea of a digital closet, right? So where, I don't know if you ever watched Clueless or remember that movie, but Cher is like in her room on her computer, right? Like getting her outfit. I was like, why don't we have that? I want to make that. That would be so easy and so great. We should make that happen. And so for a while I tried that, that kind of new closet entrepreneurial idea. And it was interesting because I remember I got married actually in my second year of business school to my phenomenal husband, who is just my rock and super supportive. And I remember when I graduated and I was working on my startup and I didn't really have like, you know, I didn't fundraise. I was like trying to get ready for my seed round and all of these things. And he kind of sat me down. And he said to me, he said, I've been observing you, and I feel like what you enjoy most about this is managing the people.

As opposed to, like, pitching investors and actually trying to build this incredible futuristic closet. Yes. And I was like, huh? What are you talking about? I'm trying to build this incredible futuristic closet. Yes. And I was like, huh? What are you talking about? I'm trying to build this epic Cher Horowitz closet. Make clueless happen right now. I don't know what you're talking about. But again, I think one of the things I've learned about myself is actually sometimes when I hear negative feedback, I like, oh, but then I sit with it and I think on it because I want to be better. At the heart of it, that's like my, you know, it's like my thing. I'm a learner and I want to grow. I love the idea of self-improvement. It's so core to who I am. And so I reflected on it and I thought about

it and I said, wow, you know, he's right. What I enjoy most about this is managing my team and building a team and the marketing side of it. You know, I was like, I'm feeling actually a little bit uncomfortable about raising money and some of these other things, you know. And I think it was, again, it comes from like your background. Like given my background and my family history, I was craving security and stability, you know, and I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do, but I wanted to spend that year with my husband because we got married actually two months after we started dating. We got married very quickly and I wanted to spend the year with him. So I wanted some flexibility. So I actually said, you know what, this startup thing that I just, I'm not sure I'm in,

it was very difficult to shut it down. I kind of felt shame and embarrassment. You know, my MBA was like, what's going on with Nu Closet? And I'm like, well, I kind of shut that down. And I actually, what I ended up doing was doubling down on my marketing consulting, which was actually going pretty well. Like I had a lot of clients that wanted to work with me

and I had amazing opportunities. clients that wanted to work with me and I had amazing opportunities. And that was a real business. You know what I mean? So I ended up, it was funny, I ended up back in marketing. I shut down my startup and I ran another startup, which was not a startup in the traditional Silicon Valley sense. It was just a profitable business. This is your marketing company that you found? This was my marketing company that I worked on. It was called New Bridges. And I found joy in it. I loved doing it. I loved solving marketing situations. I loved helping with global marketing rollouts and global marketing programs. I loved connecting with CMOs and hearing their

problems and helping them solve it. That was kind of how I ended up back in marketing. And I mean, it sounds like, you know, it's like you had kind of both an interest, but also just a natural talent, you know, in that space. Like, I mean, somebody recognized that in you when you went early on in your career, when you didn't fully recognize it in yourself yet. But clearly, there's something about you, your personality, and the way your brain works and this particular area, like this particular field. Yes, I love what I do. I love marketing. It feels very natural to me. And I actually think it's one of the most undervalued fields in the sense of a lot of entrepreneurs actually come from kind of a marketing background or at least have a predisposition to

the discipline. But I think when you look at a lot of CEOs, you don't see a lot of people saying, hey, I'm going to give that CMO a shot. You know what I mean? And I actually wish that would happen more. I wish we would see more CMOs in CEO positions. I'm very passionate about that. The reason for that is because I actually think that we will be running better businesses and better brands. We will be connecting with our members in a much deeper way and our customers. I think when you're in the job of a marketing leader, you're thinking about so many different things. You've got to think short-term and long-term. There's a huge technology component to what you do. There is a very quantitative business side to the work,

but then there's a creative aspect. There's the storytelling. And I think that it's a to marketing, especially for a new product or a new service, the first big challenge, aside from maybe raising money or creating the product, is once you do that, is getting the word out, creating brand awareness. What are things that people don't fully think about doing when they're trying to create brand awareness? I think people really underestimate brand desire. Brand desire fuels growth. Not a lot of people get that. Not a lot of people understand that.

But it's the truth. You know, you see some companies and they barely, you know, it's like, how do they do that? It's brand desire. That's how they did it. And brand desire is very difficult to create. It's very difficult to sustain.

But that's the secret sauce. You can't initially create brand desire for everybody, right? You got to focus on your very, your target audience. Who are going to be the first movers? The first people that are going to opt in and believe in you when nobody knows who you are. Who's going to take a chance on you?

And you want to build desire for those people first. You know, that is step one. When you do that, then you have proof points. You've got customer stories. And guess what they're going to do? They're going to be ambassadors for your business. And they're going to help with word of mouth. And they're going to help with advocacy, which is going to help make the work a lot easier.

And it's going to make your marketing more efficient and more effective because now your customers are basically part of your sales force. And I think that that is something that just isn't talked about enough and isn't invested in enough. And I think that's why many times, sometimes you see a great product, great team, it just doesn't catch fire. It never got traction because brand desire was never at the center of it. Yeah. I mean, the story, I mean, this, this, what you're just talking about is a story of, of like Glossier. I mean, they, they created that desire through a blog for years before they had a product. You have to create the, the foundation for people to want to try it, right? That as you say, a brand desire.

Yeah. It's, it's so fascinating. And my husband, you know, is always sort of making fun of me because I love to watch advertising and I also love, like I'm a sucker for brands. So he's like, this is just like that. Why?

I was like, no, this is the brand we use in this house. And I feel a deep sense of brand loyalty. And I think it's because once you create that brand desire, if you continue to deliver, you're in your customer's initial consideration set, which is the most important place to be. And they're going to keep coming back to you. That's the goal. And it's, by the way, it's very difficult to do. So it's not a very, obviously if it was very easy, everybody would be doing it. But I think what happens is sometimes people try. And because they fail on the first time, I think they give up. And they think, okay, I'm just going to focus on these very tactical things. And it's very difficult

to get to escape velocity. Then sometimes you're grinding, you know, you see these founders, they've been working on things for years and years and years, and there just still isn't product market fit. And sometimes it's the product, but many times it's there's no desire for the product. And that can be created. When we come back, Dara Trasider talks about joining Peloton in 2020, pretty soon after the company dealt with an ad campaign that infamously, well, sort of backfired. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to Wisdom from the Top. Hey, welcome back to Wisdom from the Top. I'm Guy Raz. So by the time Dara Chesedar became a senior vice president at Peloton and head of global marketing and communications, she'd made a name back to Wisdom from the Top. I'm Guy Raz. So by the time Dara Chesedar became a senior vice

president at Peloton and head of global marketing and communications, she'd made a name for herself in executive level jobs at places like Apple and GE. And when she started at Peloton in 2020, the company was experiencing spectacular positive growth, but was facing negative responses to some of its marketing decisions. that the husband wanted his wife to be even skinnier. And people said the woman looked scared. And there was a lot of discussion about sexism and body image. And it caused a huge backlash, right? And a lot of people were talking about Peloton at the time. I just want to forget about the content of that ad for a moment.

But on this idea of just creating buzz, right? Good or bad. Where do you fall on that? I mean, do you think that being talked about, even if it's not entirely positive, is better than not being talked about? So I think it's a really interesting question. I think the most important thing is why you're being talked about. Yeah. If you are focusing on being talked about, that's not good just to be talked about, you know? But I think if you're focusing on trying to do the right thing and really trying to drive impact and you're being talked about, you know what? Sometimes people will say bad things about you. That's just the reality, right? Like some people are going to love you. A few people aren't.

Like it just, it comes with the territory, right? It comes with the territory of being desired, to be honest, right? It's to quote the prolific Taylor Swift, haters are going to hate. And so I think, you know, I want to ask a different question. The question I want to ask is what am I focused on? That's the question I want to ask. Because if I'm focused on, and I can tell you at Peloton, everything we're focused on is improving the lives of our members. That's what matters. That's what people are talking about. Will this improve people's lives? Will this make it better?

I'm not saying we're perfect. You know, we're a company like every other company, right? But what I love and I think what's unique about this place is that that North Star is true. I know that when you joined Peloton, one of the things that was really important to you was the brand's commitment to anti-racism. I mean, Peloton is, it's, you know, on the one hand, it's a piece of exercise equipment, right, that you put in your house. But on the other hand, it's the public facing, what Peloton is, the public facing side of Peloton is our black and brown faces, right? Adrienne Williams and Allie Love and so many of the popular instructors are men and women of color. And how do you – I mean, how do you sort of see – because, you know, as I say, on the one hand, it's a piece of exercise equipment.

But on the other hand, it's something much bigger than that. And it represents something much bigger than that, right? It certainly does. You know, I think for us as a brand, right, it is about really making sure that everyone feels welcome. Everyone. You know, and I was, I actually, one of the reasons I joined Peloton was because of the anti-racism pledge. It was really inspiring to me as a Black woman to see a company say, hey, we know we need to be better and we're willing to commit to it publicly so people hold us accountable and we're willing to invest in it. And that was inspiring. I mean, not a lot of businesses do that. And not a lot of brands do that. And for me, that really stood out. As I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I'm willing to put a stake in the ground.

And I think that when you do things like that, and you live up to that, and you work to to live up to that and you continue to work to live up to that, it creates an environment over time where everybody does feel welcome. I interviewed the founders of Zumba and of Jazzercise. And what's really interesting about those fitness brands is they are incredibly – they attracted an incredibly diverse user base in part because the price point is really reasonable, right? Like a Jazzercise class can be like $15 or $10 and a Zumba class could be like $10. And this has been a challenge with yoga, for example, yoga is is is really been there, it's been a less diverse user base. And Peloton is this incredibly popular, incredibly exciting fitness program, it is expensive, right? Because it just the nature of it has to be the bikes themselves, I know, are basically sold at cost. I mean, the company doesn't make money on the physical bikes, it's the subscriptions. But just making the bikes, there's no way around it. It's

steel, it's microchips, computer chips, it's expensive. When you think about your role and your marketing role in making it a more accessible brand, what options do you have? How can you make this by nature expensive product and service more accessible to more people? So I think we've actually done so much as a business to make this accessible. So the reality is that Peloton, you know, is already right now much more accessible. So for example, you can access the bike for $49 a month with financing. $49 a month. If you think about your Starbucks coffees, you think about your gym memberships, you think about- Your iPhone. I mean, if you think about the fact that for $49 a month, you're going to have access to this gateway to a whole lot of classes, not just cycling classes, right? But also boot camps, right?

So a full body workout, you're going to have access to yoga. You're going to have access to meditation. You're going to have access to strength training. You're going to have sleep exercises that you can take to help your mind and your body bar stretching. It's phenomenal value. And I'm not just saying this because I'm the Peloton. Peloton is the best value in fitness, period. It really is. And I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe it.

And I believe it because the data backs it up for $49 a month. Then if you think about what we've also done with our digital offering, where we give you access to our content without equipment, and that is for $12.99. That's like less than a couple of cups of coffee in a week at Starbucks. So I think that we really work to address the affordability. To your point, not everybody will get a bike, but many, many more people can afford one than they might admit because it is $49 a month. If you had to weigh that, that's like a manicure and a pedicure. I think that there are so many things within our lives that we can ask ourselves,

would I make that investment in my physical health and mental health? And then we're looking at the opportunity costs. Before you joined Peloton, there was, and there's always going to be, I should clarify this and say that with any brand or any company, including what I do, there's going to be both praise and criticism. It just comes with the territory. But I actually read a really thoughtful piece by a man named David Coffin. He writes about his experience with Peloton. David is a black man. And he writes that, I love my Peloton, but I feel like that this brand has an unrecognized race problem. And he goes into talking about things like the playlists and some of the – sort of the way instructors interact with users. And I'm sure you've read pieces like that about music used or certain segmentation.

Like if it's a 90s class, most of the music comes from white artists and so on. When you read those kinds of articles, and this one that I'm referring to is really thoughtful, do you internalize those ideas and sort of think, well, how can we address this and make this better? Or do you think it just comes to the territory, those kinds of critiques? You know, I start from a very data-driven insights team. So I've got an incredible consumer insights and strategy team. And, you know, we are doing research to understand how we should show up again

with that North Star of improving the lives of our members. We're spending the time to really understand what does that mean? And that changes over time. And making sure that we are continuing to do that. And so there are always things you can do to be better. And so as a marketer at this incredible company, working with our team, my marketing team,

to really understand what are the things that someone might have written in a piece and just isn't factual. And what are the things that like, oh, wow, we didn't realize that. What could we do about that? And so for me, it's focusing on learning, making sure that we're plugged in with our members, which we are, to understand those insights and then acting on them. And I think this journey that we're on to improve the lives of our members, of all our members, including our members of color and our black members, that's a journey that we're committed to. And I'm not going to sit here and say we get it right 100% of the time because that would be untrue. What I can tell you is that we're committed to it.

And from our marketing team standpoint, we have goals around this. We have our objectives and our key results. We measure and we can see the impact of the work that we're doing. So I think that, like I said, if you're an attractive brand, people are going to write all sorts of things about you. It just comes with the territory. I think that the most important thing you can do is make sure that you're listening and you're learning. This is an incredible time to be a marketer, right?

And I mean, you are sort of here at this precipice, an exciting moment, what's happening, certainly with who consumers are. Over the next 10 years, the most important, significant and least served consumer class probably in American history will emerge in full. And that is, you know, that's the emerging majority of the American population. So younger people are more diverse. It's going to be majority minority consumers, you know, from all different ethnic and racial backgrounds. When you think about the next 5, 10, 15 years, 20 years of marketing, how do you think about creating brands and services that appeal to the emerging majority consumer? Yeah, I think that the first thing is that a brand has to be truly focused on meeting its customers' needs. And it can't be a surface level thing. It's got to be deep. And the only way you get there is by being curious, by asking questions, by trying out things, by immersing yourself in that community and most importantly of all by having a diverse

team and so I think that that commitment has got to be there that commitment to learning about your members and because you know what like everything like the reason we say racism is systemic is that it's in the system. So you have got to work and invest in building a new system that will serve this emerging population. You can't just use the old playbook. You can't just do things the way you've always done them. And that will require you to dig deeper. That will require you to ask some hard questions of yourself and your team. I know I ask myself those questions. And so I think that the future of marketing is going to be created by people who are willing to be curious about the emerging customer and who are willing to invest

in marketing that reaches that customer and in marketing that that customer truly connects with. So I think it's got to be, it can't be a surface level commitment. It's got to be a deep commitment. And guess what? It's got to be sustained. You know, so many times, oh yeah, this sounds great. I want to do this. It's like, this is really hard. This is ugly.

This is bringing up things I don't want to talk about. I'm just going to move on. No, it's got to be real and it's got to be sustained. And then the second thing that I would say is, I think you need to celebrate what's real about the people that you serve. And so many times we're tempted as marketers to try to create something that's like an alternate reality or what I like to call a marketing fantasy. And we need to ground ourselves in reality because nobody wants to be pandered to. But I think that by keeping authenticity at the heart of what you do, you're not going to get it right 100% of the time, but it's going to make a big difference. Yeah, I mean, and when what you present feels culturally connected, I guess, right? So do you do you see the sort of the future of marketing and advertising? I mean, presumably, it's going to look very, very different to the way it looks today, like even in five or

10 years from now, do you do you imagine that brands will have sort of multiple or maybe even beyond multiple advertising strategies where they are micro-targeting different consumers in different ways. Absolutely. I actually think I have a theory. And I guess we can talk in five to ten years and see if it's real. But my theory is that the future of marketing is precision marketing, which is exactly what you said. It is you are being very precise about who you're marketing to. You're catering to their need. You're speaking to them in a way that they can hear you.

Because guess what? It's not about what you say. It's about what people hear. And I think a more precise targeted approach is going to be important. And then the thing that that's going to be complemented with is you're going to tell them who you are. So you're going to have this combination of precision marketing that's really focused on starting conversations, not being an interruption in your day, but bringing you something that's insightful, that you want to engage in, that you're interested in. You're combining and pairing that with a broader brand message that is telling people, this is who I am. So it opens the door and it creates the space so that when that precision message gets in, I'm ready.

I'm ready to hear you. And I think that partnership is going to be really key for the future of marketing. What is the most exciting thing to you about where marketing is headed right now? I'm most excited about the intersection between technology and storytelling and data. And the reason for this is because we have become, there's certain things that you just can't measure. And then there's certain things that you have to measure. And I think that marketing is going to have to evolve where we understand the mix of that, we have a different strategy, a data first strategy. And you have to have both. You have to build both muscles. You have to have both skill sets within your team and you have to lead with both. And I think that that's what I'm most excited about because I think that it makes, sometimes it feels uncomfortable, right, because there's a little bit look to you as a leader.

Do you think that you were born to lead or do you think that you learned how to do it, that you're not a natural leader, but you learned how to become a leader? I consider myself a servant, actually. I very much believe in servant leadership. I think that my job is to serve the people around me and to make their lives easier and to create an environment where they can thrive. And I think that that I learned, you know,

because I think that my instincts, you know, I want to make an impact. I want to drive change. And what I started to see as I rose in my career was the best way to drive change is not to try to go alone. It's to do it with others. And you're going to be most successful when the best people want to be on your team and want to work with you and want to do things with you. And so for me, I changed my

whole philosophy and my whole mindset and how I show up as a leader. I did one of those Enneagram things, you know, and I came up with a competitive achiever. You know, I want to win. I want to achieve. That's my, that's my go-to, you know, and I've learned the importance of doing, of starting from a place of service, of putting others first, of trying to create an environment where others can succeed. And I find that then we all rise together. It's not either or, it's both and. And so I think that actually some of the things that I love about myself as a leader are things that I learned. That's Dara Trasider, SVP Head of Global Marketing and Communications at Peloton. Since Dara joined the company, it's launched several major campaigns,

including one with the artist whose songs are the most requested in Peloton classes, Beyonce. It's a partnership that's gifting digital memberships to students at historically black colleges and universities. And Dara got to announce it just three months into the new job. Hey, thanks for listening to the show this week. The music for this episode was composed and performed by Drop Electric. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to Wisdom from the Top from Luminary, Builted Productions, and NPR.