Consider This from NPR - Buttigieg Calls This A "Put Up Or Shut Up Moment" For Rail Safety

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg says he welcomes a bipartisan effort in Congress to push for new rail safety regulations in the wake of the derailment in East Palestine, Ohio.Buttigieg spoke to NPR's Ari Shapiro a day after Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw apologized for the East Palestine derailment during a Senate hearing, but stopped short of endorsing specific new regulations for his industry.In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This week, Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw had plenty of apologies. I want to begin today by expressing how deeply sorry I am. I'm terribly sorry. Yes, thank you for that question. I'm, again, terribly sorry. Shaw was testifying before the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee about last month's derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, involving a Norfolk Southern train carrying hazardous materials. The preliminary report found that the Norfolk Southern crew was operating the train below the speed limit and in an approved manner. Yet it is clear the safety mechanisms in place were not enough. The fire caused by the accident burned for two days. There were concerns about toxic substances contaminating the air, ground, and water in the surrounding area. A controlled burn to stop an

even more catastrophic explosion forced nearby residents to evacuate for several days. They eventually returned to their homes, but with tons of anxiety and questions about whether their community is safe after the accident. At the hearing this week, the Norfolk Southern CEO was grilled by members of both parties wanting to hold his company and the railroad industry accountable. Here's Senator Ed Markey, Democrat from Massachusetts, pressing Shaw on the issue of compensation for residents whose property values have taken a hit because of the derailment. Senator, I'm committed to do what's right. That is the right thing to do. These are the people who are innocent victims, Mr. Shah. These people were just there at home, and all of a

sudden, their small businesses, their homes are forever going to have been diminished in value. And here's G.D. Vance, the Republican senator from Ohio. He's urging members of his own party to back new legislation to boost safety requirements for trains carrying hazardous materials. I believe that we are the party of working people, but it's time to be the party of working people. We have a choice. Are we for big business and big government, or are we for the people of East Palestine? It's a time for choosing. Let's make the right one. Through it all, Shaw said Norfolk Southern will clean up the mess it made in East Palestine. Norfolk Southern will clean the site safely, thoroughly, and with urgency.

You have my personal commitment. But he stopped short of endorsing specific new safety regulations for the railroad industry. Consider this. Since last month's toxic train derailment in East Palestine, there are growing bipartisan calls to pass new laws to improve safety in the railroad industry. But companies like Norfolk Southern seem to be dragging their feet. Just ahead, a conversation about what comes next for the industry with Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. From NPR, I'm Juana Summers. It's Friday, March 10th. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies.

Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. It's Consider This from NPR. We heard before the break how the head of the Norfolk Southern Railroad Company apologized this week for the toxic train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, and how he promised to clean up the dangerous mess his company made there and to improve safety at the company. But when he was pressed to endorse new safety rules for the railroad industry, CEO Alan Shaw wouldn't do it. Here is an exchange between Shaw and Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon. I just want to know, will your team lobby for safety improvements rather than against them?

Senator, we will continue to follow science. We will continue to follow data. There are actually a number of areas in which we have invested in safety systems well above government regulation. I'll ask you to submit that for the record. I just really thought when you said turn over a new leaf that I thought you were saying you were going to now support safety regulations. I'm sorry you can't tell this crowd here today that would like to hear that, that that is the case. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has been leading the

Biden administration's push on those regulations. My co-host Ari Shapiro spoke to him earlier, and he asked the secretary if he believes in Norfolk Southern's new commitment to safety. Well, I appreciate the steps that they have committed to so far, but the biggest thing that I have asked them to do is to change course in resisting regulation. They and the entire freight railroad lobby have fought tooth and nail year after year on stricter standards. And I think the opportunity and the obligation before us right now, speaking not just for us as a department, but for the country, including Congress, is to push that standard much higher when it comes to everything from the adoption of reinforced tank cars that are less likely to spill when there's a derailment or a crash, to the way that railroad workers are treated.

These are all things that we know there are things that would be effective. And Norfolk Southern and the other freight railroads have resisted them time and time again. So I'm glad to see more compensation going out to the people of East Palestine. They deserve to be taken care of in every possible way. I was glad to see Norfolk Southern and the other railroads accept my call to join the whistleblower protection program that, frankly, they should have been part of throughout, but they're doing that now. Those are all welcome developments, but what we need is more than that.

What we need is for them to get on board with a higher standard of enforceable safety regulations, and we're going to keep pushing for that. You say Norfolk Southern and the entire freight rail lobby has resisted this. How much is this a Norfolk Southern problem versus a U.S. freight rail problem? That is, Norfolk Southern happened to have the most high-profile public disaster. One of their trains just derailed yesterday in Alabama. But could this just as easily have happened to any rail company? Well, we're taking a close look at Norfolk Southern specifically

and have launched a supplemental review of their safety practices and safety culture. But the reality is all of the major railroads, what are called the class one freight railroads, have these problems and have a much higher rate of accidents, derailments, crashes, injuries, and other issues than I think most Americans are aware of. There's also a small number of these railroads, really seven of the major players here who account for a lot of the traffic and a lot of the power within the railroad industry. You don't have reason to believe that Norfolk Southern is significantly worse than the others? Well, again, if we find anything additional in our stepped-up review, that will lead to specific actions with regard to Norfolk Southern. But I would say that across

each of the major class one freight railroads, if you look at violations, if you look at derailments, you're going to see broadly comparable numbers. You've said that right now there's a lot of momentum for positive change. But as we know, the country has a short attention span and the process to implement new rules and regulations is long and winding and often influenced by industry. How do you make sure that this process doesn't get so drawn out that by the time something gets implemented, the rest of the country is no longer paying attention and industry is having the same impact it's had in the past? Well, that's one of the reasons we've been working these kinds of issues before, during, and after their moment in the public spotlight. On railroad safety, for example, stepped up audits and improved regulations on things like a minimum crew size. Those are things we were working on when we got here as an administration.

These added things are things we're going to push on, and we're going to keep pushing, even if the coverage dies down because it's the right thing to do. Is there a way to cut through the red tape, though? I think there can be. I mean, look, we are subject to a lot of procedural requirements that slow down the process of things like creating a new regulation. But I would add that this is where Congress can come in and we can get swift action from Congress that wouldn't force us to go through all of those steps that can take a year or more on the regulatory front. It's why we've urged Congress to take steps like encoding the requirements on higher hazmat standards, on the safety of these trains and cars.

And the bipartisan legislation that has emerged in the Senate speaks to a lot of those priorities. It's not often you see that kind of bipartisan push in today's Washington. That's part of what gives me hope that we can, in fact, get swifter action this time around. You look at the action in Congress. On the one hand, you see lawmakers from both parties saying Norfolk Southern needs to do better. On the other hand, you see both parties trying to score political points from this situation. What do you think the actual likelihood is of Congress passing the kind of bill you're talking about? Well, I would call this a put up or shut up moment. I'm certainly

frustrated that some voices, mainly in the Republican Party in Congress, who have been outspoken on the derailment generally, have not appeared willing to support the EPA, which is the main agency and power to hold Norfolk Southern accountable, and have been hesitant to support the railroad regulations we're calling for. On the other hand, there are Republicans and Democrats joining on this legislation in the Senate. And again, I think that's not a small thing. To me, if that continues along with continued push from our administration, which you can count on, and continued public pressure, I really think that big things are possible right now. And frankly, we simply have to. You know, about 10 years ago, there were a series of horrible derailments, including fatalities that led to a push on railroad reform. It may not have been something that got a lot of coverage or attention at the time, but it made a difference. And yet, some of those provisions have been watered down over the years since then.

Now is a moment before we see another event, especially a potential mass casualty event, to again raise the bar on railroad safety. And we welcome everybody, Democrat, Republican, and Independent, to work with us on making sure it happens. We'll continue using all the powers we already have, but Congress could strengthen our hand in a big way, and they could do it quickly. If we could focus on one specific disagreement, one big problem seems to be that flaws in train tracks go undetected. But there's disagreement

over whether you need humans to walk miles of rail to spot defects or whether some of this can be automated. You have advocated for human inspectors. Why isn't this something where good modern technology can do the job better than a fallible human pair of eyes? Well, we think this should be a both and, a belt and suspenders approach. We have never acted to block or delay the use of these technologies, including camera technologies and automated technologies. We think they are a great supplement to the human inspections that are also a very important part of the safety process. Where we start to diverge from the railroad industry is when they say things that make it sound like they're calling for the use of technology, when actually what they're asking for is to withdraw the human

factor while that technology is being deployed. We are very much about making sure we do everything at the same time. And over time, they can continue to demonstrate the effectiveness of these technologies. But to date, I am not satisfied that you can simply remove traditional inspections. I would rather see both happen at the same time. You've said that you made a mistake by not visiting the site of the crash earlier. The Guardian, a left-leaning newspaper, said your decision to wait three weeks, quote, recalls the incompetence of FEMA during Hurricane Katrina. So what do you think you need to do now to regain trust going forward?

Well, let me be very clear. Our department responded to this issue in the first hours after the derailment. We were there from the beginning. And unlike those other cases that have been cited, nobody has pointed to a deficiency in terms of the readiness of this department, the presence of our staff, and the functional role that we had, making sure that the NTSB was supported and that the community was supported to break from precedent a little bit, to break from the norm where you don't normally see transportation secretaries at crash sites, probably out of deference to the NTSB, but we can do both. We can respect the independence of the NTSB, but also break from tradition and have more of an on-the-ground presence because it's an opportunity to signal to communities impacted by these kinds of disasters and derailments how important they are and that they matter. But again, at every step of the way,

our agency has been there doing its job. And our biggest job right now is to make and enforce good transportation policy that saves lives, which is exactly what we're doing and exactly what we're urging Congress to do with us. That was Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg speaking with my co-host Ari Shapiro. It's ConsiderVis from NPR. I'm Juana Summers.