Consider This from NPR - Confronting Police Violence and Racism in France

Episode Date: July 6, 2023

The police killing in France of a 17-year old of North African descent sparked protests and violence across the country as well as a national conversation about racism and police brutality. Rebecca Rosman reports from the Paris suburb of Nanterre where the police killing took place. NPR's Eleanor Beardsley reports from Marseille, the scene of some of the worst violence. And Ari Shapiro interviews Sebastian Roche, a sociologist who studies policing and race in France.In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University performs breakthrough research every year, making discoveries that improve human health, combat climate change, and move society forward. More at iu.edu forward. Maybe the easiest way to understand why cities across France have been overcome by protests, violence, and looting in recent days is to ask the people in the streets. That's what NPR's Eleanor Beardsley did over the weekend in Marseille, where protesters crossed paths with riot police launching tear gas. A cat and mouse game in the city. It actually gets scary when it comes to tear gas.

Come here, come here. She talked to a 15-year-old protester named Ghassin. They killed a kid and we're here to make them understand they can't do this anymore, he said. Because the police hit us and treat us bad for no reason. They're supposed to protect us and we're scared of them. The kid he's talking about is a 17-year-old of North African descent named Nahel. He was stopped last week by two police officers after running a red light in Nanterre, a working class suburb of Paris. A video captured an officer shooting him in the chest.

Nahel was pronounced dead less than an hour later. The protests and violence that followed that killing have opened a conversation in France about racism and police brutality. Many who condemn the violence also feel the anger behind it is justified. Like Zach Rashidi, a 32-year-old insurance broker living in a South Paris suburb. He told NPR that successive governments have done nothing over the years to address the issues facing the working class, especially young minorities. They may put on some bandages, but it's never enough to heal the wounds entirely, he said.

Days of unrest in France have reopened a debate about systemic racism in that country. Will this moment lead to change? From NPR, I'm Scott Detrow. It's Thursday, July 6th. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today, or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. It's Consider This from NPR. Maxime Chevalier is a shop owner in Marseille.

He says the only reason he wasn't pillaged Saturday night is because he stayed outside in front of his t-shirt and sneaker store until 4 a.m. It was like civil war. The police were overwhelmed. Young people were looting the stores. There were crazy scenes you'd expect from somewhere in the third world, but completely unacceptable here. He says police did nothing to stop the looters, so he hired private security so he could go home and sleep. He also moved all the merchandise out of his boarded-up store just in case. Many fear these riots and protests have exposed deep-seated problems

that could pop up again and again. Protesters consider the fatal shooting a symptom of what many, including the United Nations, regard as systemic racism and brutality of the French police. For NPR, Rebecca Rossman reports from Nanterre, the town where 17-year-old Nahel was shot and where this all began. On Saturday, hundreds gathered in the middle of a spacious boulevard facing the Ibn Badis mosque in Nanterre for his funeral. The crowd grew louder and cars honked their horns as the white casket was placed into a hearse. He was a super happy kid, always smiling, says 19-year-old Shirin Ahmed,

who, like many in Nanterre, tells me she knew Nahel personally. That's when her voice gets political. The police are supposed to be here to protect us, not kill us, she says, adding that while she doesn't want to generalize, she's never felt like she could trust them. Police were notably absent from the weekend's funeral service, despite the large crowds and even a few scuffles. Rocaille Diallo is a French journalist and social activist who has spent decades calling out what she sees as a culture of impunity within France's police force. What I can tell is that many of them know that they could have been Nile.

She tells me she's been speaking to a number of young people in the area. Many of them have already had so many negative interactions with the police, like being routinely checked for no reasons, being abused verbally or physically at a very young age. And that may be why so many minors have been at the center of recent unrest. According to France's Interior Ministry, the average age of those arrested is only 17 years old. Nordin Isnasny is a community activist who has been living in Nanterre for decades. Like many, he condemns the violence, but says young people have a right to be heard. This is a generation that is telling the police,

I'm sorry, but you cannot treat us this way, he says. We are saying, you cannot make us miserable, because we will look you in the eyes and call you out. French President Emmanuel Macron said that the teenager's death was inexcusable and unexplainable, but his government has stopped short of acknowledging systematic racism and discrimination within the police force. In broader French society, these issues are often considered taboo subjects. Brocaia Diallo says although she believes the officer who shot Nahel will be sentenced, not much will change beyond that.

The system will not be questioned in itself. So it's very easy to make an example out of him, but the problem is not that person. The problem, she says, is that it happens all the time, and the government still isn't getting the message. That was Rebecca Rossman reporting from Nanterre earlier this week. The violence and protests of the past week have many in France questioning how the police can change. My colleague Ari Shapiro spoke with Sébastien Rocher. He's a sociologist who studies policing and race in France. French President Emmanuel Macron canceled a trip that he was scheduled to make

this week. Tell us about his response. Emmanuel Macron immediately responded in a very moderate way, probably because he had seen the video and the shot against the young person that was no threat to the police officer. You're talking just to clarify about the video that contradicted the police officer's version of events in which it's clear that the 17-year-old who was killed was not posing a threat to the police officer who shot him. Exactly, yes. And based on that video, he immediately took a very strong stance and said that the behavior of the police is unacceptable. And this is not something Emmanuel Macron does. He only did it once before for a young black music producer that was beaten up by the police in his own house, but everything was recorded.

So that's the only moment in France where police behavior and police violence have been strongly condemned by the president without any judicial investigation being carried out. And as I said, protesters accuse the police of systemic racism. They say these are not isolated events. What form do those patterns of behavior take? In France, there is quite classically, I would say, two main problems with the police. One is the abuse of force, the use of excessive force.

And one second issue is police discrimination, especially during stop and search. In this case, we have a simple traffic stop and the young man ends up dead while, again, he was posing no threat to the police officer. And this has strongly resonated with other cases of police discrimination in the suburbs of Paris and other large French cities. They're mainly from Northern African descent and also sub-Saharan Africa. So these people, they used to be stopped by the police for no reason. And they used to be submitted to inquisitive search during the stop and search. You know, in the United States, policing is so decentralized that it makes it difficult to

create change on a national level. In France, policing is much more centralized. And so, is there a movement for change? And do you think change is likely to happen? I think decentralized systems are very difficult to change because they are decentralized. And centralized systems are very difficult to change because they are centralized. Police organizations are very strong organizations. They are very well unionized. And it's very difficult for either a mayor or a French president of the republic to govern in turbulent times without the police. Therefore, the president is extremely cautious. He has a strong, let's say, tone against these police officers that shoot the young boy, but he has also a very strong tone

against the rioters that create disorder on the street. So in that respect, I'm not extremely hopeful that something will dramatically change. We lack clear policy signals from President Macron. We lack clear policy signals that he wants to do something. He says, I'm going to listen. I am open to listening to what's happening. I'm willing to establish better relation with the youth. But at this moment, it's only a number of small phrases that have been pronounced by the president. That was NPR's Ari Shapiro speaking with Sebastian Rocher, a policing expert at France's National Center for Scientific Research. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow.