Consider This from NPR - Despite talk of peace, Ukraine is still under a barrage of deadly attacks

Episode Date: May 3, 2025

Over the past few months, world leaders and diplomats have talked about grand plans for ending the war in Ukraine. But what about daily life there right now? For our reporter's notebook series, we'll get on the ground with NPR correspondent Joanna Kakissis, who's been living and working in Ukraine for almost the entire war. We'll hear how everyday Ukrainians have adapted to a new normal. People go to work and kids go to school, but most nights Russian attacks continue.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Over the past few months, Ukraine has been caught in geopolitical jostling at the highest echelons of power. I'm sure to say that it is one of the most astonishing moments that we have ever seen happen inside the Oval Office between these world leaders essentially shouting at one another by the end of this debate. And a significant couple of statements from Vladimir Putin saying that Russia agrees with a Ukraine ceasefire, but it should be... With world leaders gathering for the Papal funeral

at the Vatican, a peace summit of sorts for President Trump and Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky. Just this week, the Trump administration signed a deal to share revenues from Ukraine's mineral wealth, tying the US even more closely to negotiations over the country's future. But these are political machinations. What about daily life on the ground in Ukraine,

more than three years after the Russian invasion? Well, Kiev, the capital, is bustling, at least by day. It's a city that's absolutely alive and full of creativity and resilience. There are wonderful coffee shops, wonderful restaurants. You see people on the streets all the time during the day. People going to work, kids going to school. That's Joanna Kakissis, NPR's correspondent in Ukraine. On weekends, I'll go to the theater.

We'll walk along the Dnieper River. You'll see these elderly couples dancing on the shore, like doing the waltz, and you think like this doesn't feel like a city at war. But every night, practically, there are drone attacks. You're like jarred awake by the fact like, oh yeah, this is war, we're at war, and it's happening practically every night. Consider this. As diplomats try to negotiate a peace deal, Ukrainian civilians are still dying from Russian airstrikes.

So today for our Reporter's Notebook series, we'll get on the ground with Joanna, who's been living and working in Ukraine for almost the entire war. We'll hear how everyday Ukrainians have adapted to a new normal and how the country's military is trying to revolutionize drone warfare. From NPR, I'm Don Gagné. It's considered this from NPR. A little over a week ago, at one in the morning local time,

ballistic missiles started falling on the city of Kyiv. The bombardment continued for the next 11 hours, killing 12 people and injuring around 90. 40-year-old Maria Rumyantseva scrambled to evacuate her elderly mother before a Russian missile destroyed their home. How do I get my mother, a disabled person in a wheelchair, down from the second floor to the first floor to the bomb shelter alone in eight minutes? It was the deadliest attack on Kiev since last summer, but missiles fall on the Ukrainian capital almost every night, a new normal that residents

have endured for more than three years since the Russian invasion. Today, we'll hear what it's like to cover the war at this moment from NPR's Ukraine correspondent, Joanna Kokissis. We'll pass it off to our co-host, Scott Detro, who started by asking Joanna about those near-nightly aerial attacks. People in the early months, everyone, an air raid siren would come and the whole city would

troop down to air raid shelters. Does that still happen after several years of this? Not that many people go like they used to go. In the beginning, it was every time. Now it's not as often. People have just gotten really used to go. In the beginning, it was every time. Now it's not as often. People have just gotten really used to it. I remember interviewing this woman who said that she was so tired after days and days of not sleeping that even though the explosion like was rattling her windows and actually blew out one of her windows, she didn't want

to go downstairs to the shelter. She's just like, honestly, I don't care if I die. I'm just too tired. I'm too tired. I need to sleep. It's really worn people down the fact that they hear this every night. So and they've just gotten used to it, as have I. So that's life in Kiev. What is the best way to describe what it's like when you leave the capital when you go elsewhere in the country, especially as you move more toward the eastern front where where the active increasingly trench warfare war is taking place. Right, right. You can really tell there's a big difference. When I'm in Harkev or in the Donetsk region I definitely notice the difference and for

one there are many many more explosions and you also have the fear of something called guided bombs, like glide bombs, which are very, very destructive and the Harkev has suffered from a lot of them. And I've also visited Herson there because the Russians are also nearby there. They'll send over drones that like attack people, like hunt them down and attack them on the street. So it's much more dangerous. I know a couple in in in her cell and who I've been in touch with for a while. He's a journalist and she's an illustrator

and she hasn't left the house in two years because she's too afraid to leave her apartment. You know, it's such a strange war and I'm wondering how you see this from your perspective because on in some ways it is a very old style of war, right? With this, this static battlefield and trenches and land mines. on in some ways it is a very old style of war right with this the static battlefield and trenches and landmines and then it is a war that is being fought in so many ways by this modern technology like both sides aggressively

using drones and in fighting a war that way. Yeah that's true it's incredibly modern in some ways and incredibly World War I in other ways. Drone warfare is really the main stage right now. I'm not saying that infantry don't have a role anymore, but drones are increasingly becoming the weapon of choice by both sides. And especially, the Ukrainians have invested a lot of money in making cutting edge drones or using drones in cutting edge ways because, let's remember, the Ukrainians have invested a lot of money in making cutting edge drones or using drones in cutting edge ways because, remember, the Ukrainians are vastly outnumbered by the Russians.

There are many more Russian soldiers than there are Ukrainian soldiers. And Ukrainians can't lose soldiers. So to them, investing in warfare that will help them get an edge on the battlefield without losing more soldiers or investing more soldiers, that's where it's at for the Ukrainians. And I understand you recently did some reporting where you saw some of these new drones up close, specifically something called a land drone. Tell me what a land drone is. I said two of them actually, I should explain.

Let's start with the big drone. The big drone is like, looks like a truck with six wheels, and it's about the size of a large bumper car at an amusement park if you can think of that And then there's a small drone that looks kind of like a child's play truck like one where a little person could fit You know sort of use a steering wheel to move it around although there is no steering wheel on this one The big drone carries supplies and it has like, you know carry supplies in. It has like, you know, ammunition, it has food, it has, you know, whatever the soldiers need, they load it up and they send it in there. The smaller drone, that one is just filled with explosives and it's got a one-way mission and it's to kill the enemy.

So it's sent in there and the explosives are detonated once they're close to Russian infantry. Nat. Tell me a little more about the specific unit that you spent time with with these land drones. Sure. Yeah, they were part of the Hartea Brigade, which is based in the northeastern city of Kharkiv, and it's like part of Ukraine's National Guard. It's got a lot of innovators in its ranks, like a lot of young men in their 20s with PhDs in mathematics and engineering and molecular biology. I spent a lot of time with this 26-year-old evolutionary biologist whose military call sign is Pan, like the Greek god of shepherds and hunters. And he had this thick black hair and a gaze that just reflected a lot

of steeliness and a lot of pain. He'd lost close friends in the war. And he's from part of Ukraine in the East that's been under relentless attack. and he told me a lot about how these land drones work because he himself has modified them so they can work for Ukraine. What is he doing right now? He's preparing his equipment for testing. We are testing how far can it go. Our war is a competition between quantity and quality. And we are quality. It is not only because we have no choice. It is also because we have a capability to use such technology. We have smart people who can use it.

Jonah, I want to end such technology. We have smart people who can use it. Joe, I want to end with this. This war has been going on for more than three years now. I'm wondering how you approach this beat and how you think about finding new stories in a war that just keeps going on and how you fight the fatigue on your end and how you think about it editorially? Well, I think the challenge is that you still have to keep up with the news and there's

only one of me, so the news always takes precedent. But what I really want to do and what I really try hard to find time to do is to tell stories about people. This is about human beings and how they're living through it. I was giving them the food and they were like crying because they said that I had no food for the three days because I was running from the bombing. This isn't a word just about, you know, politics

or who kicked who out of the Oval Office or, you know, things like that. Because of the attacks, I'm very worried. So is my family. But I live close to the attacks, I am very worried. So is my family. But I live close to the subway, and so the way to rehearsals is also underground. It's very hard for me to sit here while my fellow soldiers are out there. This is my country, and if I don't defend it, who will? You know, at the end of the day day I don't need to listen to politicians and and to even to policy wonk so much I need to talk to people because it's people who

are experiencing this. That was NPR's Ukraine correspondent Joanna Kakissis talking with all things considered host Scott Detro. This episode was produced by Noah Caldwell and edited by Adam Rainey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yennegan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Don Gagnon. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon Prime members can listen to Consider This sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get Consider This Plus at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org.